John the Jew & The Word in John 1:1 (Preexistence 101 - #2 of 5) - by J. Dan Gill

Did Jesus say he had been a "person" called "the Word" before he was born? In John 1:1, was John writing from a biblical Jewish point of view or from a Greek perspective? J. Dan Gill tells his audience that John, in his prologue, writes from the Old Testament perspective about God's word.
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[@629m4]

thank you. praise Yah.

[@puremusicdaz]

wonderful, blessed teaching - thank you dan :-)

[@grantknott]

Sage of Synergism Why don’t you explain it to me?

[@puremusicdaz]

@Sage of Synergism 1) zechariah 2) zechariah 3) zechariah. or were you talking about antitypes and prefigures?

[@629m4]

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: ... Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4

[@rosemerrynmcmillan1611]

Brilliant teaching! Thanks so much from believers in Australia!

[@alexanderrigby6917]

Praise,honour, glory, and worship to our Heavenly Father in the name of Yahshua Messiah. Where do you live in Australia?

[@rosemerrynmcmillan1611]

​@@alexanderrigby6917Perth, Western Australia!! Would love to meet some other Biblical Unitarians!

[@dwashington1333]

Geneva Bible John 1:1 In the beginning was that word and that word was with God and that word was God.

[@truetrue4521]

Thank you

[@baronlouisa]

One only takes the place of their father when he is dead or if he gives you that authority

[@baronlouisa]

Jesus was not "Jesus" before his birth.. he was with his father in Heaven ..he was sent to carry out God's plans he could not have spoken of himself

[@priscillajervey8345]

So was he God the son? Did you not hear anything the pastor?

[@baronlouisa]

John could have preached incarnation because he was called to preach " repentance "not philosophy

[@priscillajervey8345]

Absolutely!

[@ElCineHefe]

Jesus believed in reincarnation. He taught us that we will all be born again into new bodies. Celestial bodies. Some of us will not be subject to the great white throne Judgment.

[@frankmaoro4287]

Rev chap 19 [13]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. JESUS IS THAT WORD OF GOD, JESUS IS GOD.

[@johnspartan98]

The word didn't become flesh. That has to be a mistranslation of the Greek because that concept conflicts with Deuteronomy 18:18 and many other verses that always have the word of God coming to dwell in people which is an entirely different concept than becoming flesh. You even stated it as the word "came to dwell in Jesus." I agree with that, but no way did God's word become flesh. That concept is 100 percent Philo all the way.

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@Sage of Synergism All of us in the 21st Century are at a disadvantage of being able to frame the words of Hebrew thought. We read a very Hebraic story with Western Modern eyes and ears and hear the ticking of a clock that is accurate to milliseconds. The 2000-3500 year ago Hebrew mind did not work that way. They were much more figurative. You can see that with the words and things Our Lord Jesus Christ says: You strain a gnat and swallow a camel. The Pharisees wore a vail over their faces to prevent from accidental ingesting a gnat because it was the smallest unclean thing in their world view. But instead they swallowed a Camel which was the largest unclean animal for them. A beam in your own eye verses the speck in your brother's eye. I hope you get the idea about literalism in reading the scriptures.

[@johnspartan98]

@Sage of Synergism 1 Kings 19:9? It's a vision. Go back to verse 5 and read it. The word of the Lord came to him [IN A VISION] and YHWH articulated a message to him. In fact there is a series of visions. The voice was obviously YHWH's voice, which makes sense because YHWH is always referred to as a he. It could have been the Angel of the Lord articulating the words of YHWH....but it could not be any person called the Word....and not Jesus for the reason below. If you think the word in 1 Kings 19:9 is Jesus speaking then you are conflicting with Hebrews 1:1-2. YHWH never spoke in the past through Jesus. He spoke through Jesus "in these last days" which began with John the Baptist preaching and baptizing. *Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers States:* "The word of the Lord came to him.-The connection suggests that this message came to him in vision or dream at night. The LXX. implies this distinctly by inserting in 1 Kings 19:11 the word “to-morrow,” which is also found in the rather vague and prosaic paraphrase of the passage in Josephus. What Elijah replies in imagination in the vision, he repeats next day in actual words. It's like saying: the word of the President came to me while I was sleeping and I heard him say to me...etc. etc.. Meaning of pros? Where? If you are referring to John 1:1 it is incorrect to insist that "pros" points to another person as having an eternal pre-existent relationship with YHWH. What John is telling us in 1:1 is exactly what the Bible teaches: the word of God is of the same eternal and divine substance as what YHWH is. In this case it is the Gospel John is referring to. There is an eternal relationship between YHWH and His word without the word being the person of Jesus. The Gospel is the light and life from YHWH that enlightens and gives new life to all who receive it and believe it. John 6:63 states in no uncertain terms. God's word is spirit, meaning: of the same divine eternal substance. Jesus never calls himself the word. The Apostles never call Jesus the word. There is no Biblical precedence for believing Jesus is the word. If you wanna bring up Revelation 19:13 I am well prepared to prove Revelation 19:11-16 refers to YHWH, and not Jesus. The belief that Revelation 19:13 refers to Jesus is based on very sloppy exegesis....which I am well prepared to prove.

[@johnspartan98]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist "The word became flesh and dwelt among us" is an error in translating the Greek to English. PART 6: JOHN 1:14 *WHY THE WORD DID NOT BECOME FLESH.* The traditional translation of John 1:14 conflicts with: Deuteronomy 18:18; 1 Kings 21:17; Jeremiah 1:4; 1 Chronicles 17:3; Hosea 1:1; 2 Chronicles 12:7; Genesis 15:4; Genesis 15:1; Ezekiel 6:1; Jeremiah 1:2, 11; Jeremiah 13:8; Mark 1:1; Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22; Luke 9:35....and many more scriptures. "....I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers [Israelites], like you [Moses], and I will put my words IN HIS MOUTH [Jesus] and he will speak to them [Israelites] all that I command him. Deuteronomy 18:18; also see Acts 3:22 The word of God was to be placed into Jesus by YHWH Himself. That means the word of God could not have become the flesh of Jesus. No other verse in the Bible conveys the idea: "the word became flesh" (Jesus). "Flesh" in this context is referring to "humanity; everyone, all people, or mankind) and not just one person. Jesus did not die to save himself. He died to save humanity. Check Acts 2:17 where Peter quotes Joel 2:28 using the NASB, Weymouth New Testament, GOD'S WORD® Translation, Aramaic Bible in Plain English, International Standard Version, Good News Translation, The NET Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, Contemporary English Version, Christian Standard Bible,Berean Study Bible, New Living Translation, New International Version. Paul also uses flesh as a reference to all of humanity where he states: "no flesh is justified by the works of the law" (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16). The writer of the prologue moves the reader to focus on the entrance of God's word into the hearts and minds of people, thereby having an effect on the complete flow of human activity and affairs. John 1:14 is a summary of YHWH's purpose behind the the NT Gospel, which is to fulfill prophecy by having His word and spirit dwell in people to sactify, justify, enlighten, transform, and grant them eternal life. The following translation respects the immediate and remote context of the Bible and it causes no conflicts with other scriptures: "and the word came to humanity and dwelt in us, and we discerned its glory, (a glory like that of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." THE GLORY they experienced was "like that of the only begotten of the Father." They experienced the same glory in themselves that was "like that" which they saw working in Jesus. John 17:22-24; 2 Corinthians 4:6 No one could truly experience what it is like to be the Glory of God (the sinless Son of God)....but we can experience the glory of the word working in us....the same glory that worked in Jesus. John 1:14 cannot be translated to conflict with Deuteronomy 18:18 or the following prophecies: "I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit inside you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26; also see Ezekiel 11:19; Jeremiah 32:39; The gift of holy spirit came “upon” people under the O.T. covenant, but with the New Covenant YHWH says His spirit will be “in you" and his laws will be written in our hearts. (Jeremiah 31:33). Jesus understood this and taught it to his Apostles at the Last Supper (see John 14:17). The Gentile church (the Body of Christ) are recipients of those O.T. promises fulfilled in the new covenant. The traditional translation of John 1:14 is incompatible with the O.T. prophecies. Rules of Greek grammar don't apply when the conclusion results in conflict with essential themes. I have preserved the Greek text and translated it word for word into English so that it becomes compatible with the John's Gospel and the rest of the Bible. I took some latitude in translating the Greek word "egeneto" as "came to." A study of the broad array of uses and definitions for this word indicates it is not far fetched to render it "came to." To the contrary, in the context of John's prologue, his Gospel, and the entire N.T. translating "egeneto" as "became" results in conflict with the Bible. Continued next post.

[@johnspartan98]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist Continued from previous post. TRANSLATION 1. The Greek word "egeneto" should be translated "came to" in the context of John 1:14 as it bridges the subject and the object. 'egeneto" has a broad array of uses in the Greek and is rendered using many different English words. It is a word used with great latitude. The context informs the meaning behind its use. It is sometimes translated as a compound verb with an added preposition in the absence of other prepositions in the sentence such as "pros." We find "egeneto" is translated elsewhere in the Bible as "came to be; came to pass; it came to pass; came." The NASB translates "egeneto" into over 80 different English words and word phrases. The Hebrew word with the same meaning is (way-hi). There are many examples in the Bible where the LXX translators used "egeneto" to translate way-hi in verses that render it: "..came to.." Examples: a. NEW TESTAMENT i) "The word of God CAME TO (egeneto) John the Baptist....." Luke 3:2 ii) "If he called them gods to whom the word of God CAME (egeneto)." John 10:35 b. OLD TESTAMENT i) "Then the word of YHWH CAME TO Elijah..." 1 Kings 21:17 ii) "The word of YHWH CAME TO me, saying,..." Jeremiah 1:4 iii) "the word of YHWH CAME TO Nathan, saying, 1 Chronicles 17:3 iv) "The word of Yahweh that CAME TO Hosea....." Hosea 1:1 v) "..the word of YHWH CAME TO Shemaiah,..." 2 Chronicles 12:7 vi) "the word of Yahweh CAME TO him saying,." Genesis 15:4 vii) "the word of Yahweh CAME TO Abram..." Genesis 15:1 viii) "The word of Yahweh CAME TO me, saying,.." Ezekiel 6:1 ALSO SEE: Jeremiah 1:2, 11; Jeremiah 13:8; (came; ἐγένετο) Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22; Luke 9:35. The above verses demonstrate the word of God is put into people, comes to people, and comes to dwell in people, but nowhere does the Bible support the idea that the word of God becomes the flesh of Jesus or anyone else. God's word is spirit: "It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life." (John 6:63). Spirit does not become flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) Words are spirit. Words do not become flesh. Words enter into the mind. Notice how Paul refers to the word of God being IN the believers mouth and heart: "But what does it say? "The word (logos) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the MESSAGE concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:8-9 Paul states: "let the word of God dwell in you richly." Colossians 3:16 God tells Jeremiah: “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.” Jeremiah 1:9. We see similar language used in Deuteronomy 18:18 2. The Greek word "sarx" should be translated "humanity." Paul states: "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." (1 Corinthians 15:39) The "one kind of flesh of men" is a reference to mankind or humanity. More than 80 percent of the time "sarx" is translated "flesh" it is associated with the sinful nature of man. Sarx is also used in reference to humanity, mankind, all people, animals, birds and fishes. Sarx is also used in reference to parts of animals and humans. The meat of animals is called flesh. In Acts 2:17 Peter quotes Joel 2:28 "..I will pour out My spirit on all flesh..." The meaning of sarx here is better translated as mankind, human kind, all people, or humanity. Note: the following translations of Acts 2:17 have the word sarx translated humanity: i) The NASB: mankind ii) Weymouth New Testament: mankind. iii) GOD'S WORD® Translation: everyone iv) Aramaic Bible in Plain English: everyone v) International Standard Version: everyone vi) Good News Translation: everyone vii) The NET Bible: all people. viii) Holman Christian Standard Bible: humanity ix) Contemporary English Version: everyone x) Christian Standard Bible: all people xi) Berean Study Bible: all people xii) New Living Translation: all people xiii) New International Version: all people Paul also uses flesh as a reference to all of humanity where he states: "no flesh is justified by the works of the law" (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16). When the context is not referring to the sinful nature of man, or to the physical bodies or parts of animals, and where the context is clearly about the human kind of flesh in the broader sense of humanity, the word "flesh" should not translated "humanity."

[@johnspartan98]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist TRANSLATION continued. 3. The Greek words "en hemin" should be translated "in us" The Greek word "en" is commonly translated "in" and "hemin" is translated "us." Putting the two together "en hemin" can be rendered as "in us" which fits perfectly with the Bible. The word does nothing to transform the heart and mind of anyone unless it dwells in them by being received and believed in faith. The Greek preposition and noun combination "en hemin" is not always translated "among us." There are several Examples to demonstrate "en hemin" is translated "in us" or "within us." EXAMPLES: i) Luke 24:32: within us; in us ii) Romans 8:4: in us iii) John 17:21: in us iv) Ephesians 3:20: within us; in us v) Philemon 1:6 : some translations have "in us" others "in you" (still referring to more than one). vi) 2 Timothy 1:14: within us; in us vii) 2 John 1:2 "menousen en hemin" is translated as follows: "abides in us" ASV, NASB; "dwells in us" Aramaic Bible in Plain English; "dwelleth in us" KJV; "lives in us" NIV, NLT; Many other examples exist to demonstrate "en hemin" is often translated "in us" in the New Testament. Paul says the word of Christ (the Gospel) comes to dwell "in" the hearts and minds of believers. (Colossians 3:16) Translating "en hemin" in John 1:14 to read "in us" is consistent with the Bible, is logical, reasonable, and causes no conflicts with the Bible. 4. The Greek word "autos" in John 1:3-5 and John 1:10) is accurately translated as "it" (not him or he) when referring to the logos of God. The only reason a translator would choose the word "he" is to lead the reader to believe the logos of God is the person of Jesus. However, Jesus never refers to himself as the "Word" and neither do any of the Apostles. In addition, no Greek Lexicon defines the Greek word logos as the person "Jesus." *Grammatically the word Logos is a masculine noun. However, grammatical gender is not the same as personal gender. When translators use the word "he" in reference to "the word" they are in error and mislead people. In relation to God, the Logos is His spoken word, whether it is delivered by a messenger verbally, or written down as a message, it all comes from God's mind, spirit, reason, plan, wisdom and it doesn't change. Logos is never used to mean a person in the NT. The use of logos in John 1:1 (as it applies to YHWH) is not used any differently than other occurrences. "kai o logos en pros ton theon" only occurs in John 1:1, it is not found anywhere else in the Bible. John 6:60 has autos translated as "it" when referring to the words Jesus taught: "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?" Here you will find a list of 50 translations of John's prologue that translate "autos" as "it" in reference to ho logos. www.focusonthekingdom.org/translations.htm 5. As further proof to support my corrections from Greek to English I rely on Deuteronomy 18:18 which is fulfilled in John 1:14. "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him." Deuteronomy 18:18. Peter confirms this in Acts 3:22-26; Acts 7:37. The belief that Jesus is the word made flesh conflicts with the following verses: Act 3:34; Acts 5:24; John 7:15-18; John 8:28; John 12:49-50; John 14:10; John 14:24; and 1 John 2:7 (not a complete list) because Jesus said he did not speak his own words, but rather the words that BELONG to his Father. If Jesus is the word of God that became flesh, then these verses become absurdities. 1 John 2:7 is especially telling since it was written by the same author: "Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you heard." REV Bible. The last sentence contains the same "ho logos" as John 1:1 and John 1:14. Notice that the word that was heard from the beginning is not referred to as Jesus....but rather as a commandment! The word of God is God's word, not Jesus. Jesus spoke the words his Father gave him to speak. The scriptures teach us that God placed His word into His prophets, into Jesus, and into believers. Not one OT prophecy supports the traditional translation and interpretation of John 1:14. "That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. John 3:6" "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life." John 6:63. Words are spirit. Words don't become flesh...they enter INTO the mind. "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." Psalms 33:6 Note: "The breath of His mouth" refers to God's spirit. The word of God ALWAYS works in conjunction with His spirit. The word of God is spirit and life. John 6:63 CONCLUSION: The word in John's prologue is God's message, the Gospel. The Gospel came to humanity by way of Jesus. God's word is spirit, not flesh. The flesh profits nothing. God's word dwells in all who hear the Gospel message and believe it. The Gospel enlightens people and transforms their hearts and minds. The word of God did not become the flesh of Jesus in John 1:14. The word of God came to humanity from God through Jesus to mankind, and it dwells in all who trust in Jesus as Messiah and believe he is the Son of God.

[@11304800]

Jehovah's witness believe Jesus pre-existed as an angel

[@daviddrew3372]

The Greek word in John 1:1 commonly translated as “ with” is literally transliterated as “ alongside”. For those who wish to read John 1:1 with either a Trinitarian bias or the idea that Jesus did not exist in Heaven prior to coming to earth the word “ alongside “ is a problem. How can a person be “ alongside” himself except in a panic . How can a word or even a thought be “ alongside the person expressing it except when that person is in an altered mental state? Jesus literally lived in Heaven as the Firtsborn of all creation, The spokesperson of God , The Angel of the Jehovah, The Logos, The head of all Angels before he came to earth and took on human form ( Philippians 2:5-10) and has since been given even greater authority by Jehovah . It’s just not all that hard to understand.

[@verrasimonsimon7876]

Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?

[@iJoel00]

It’s not a separate person from the Father - it is His character/nature - part of His essence gifted in order to help guide one in His character in behavior (Torah).

[@jc3115]

​@@iJoel00 So why can't the word of god be part of his essence? Gifted to help us?

[@baronlouisa]

The universalité church is called FORMED OF DIFFÉRENT RELIGIONS, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE YET IS CALLED" THE BODY OF CHRIST " IN THÉ SINGULAR.

[@rosemerrynmcmillan1611]

Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is One. Deut 6:4

[@romanstwelvetwokjv9976]

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24). When God the Father "created" (or made, or begat) the Son of God, he did NOT create a being that had never existed previously. Rather, he created an **IMAGE** of HIS OWN eternally-existing Spirit being. God the Father and the Son of God are not two separate beings. God the Father - *the root of David* - is a Spirit, and his "express image", the Son of God - *the offspring of David* - is a MAN (1 Tim.2:5) _AND_ a SPIRIT (2 Cor.3:17). And HIS, _singular,_ name......is *JESUS!*

[@romanstwelvetwokjv9976]

@Sage of Synergism _>>> "If they are not 2 persons then who was the Son praying to?"_ Humans talk to themselves all the time. Why can't God - in whose image we humans are created - talk to himself? _>>> "Do you agree with hebrews 1.10 which says the Son created the heavens and earth?"_ Absolutely. Hebrews 1 is a great chapter. Verse 8: _But unto _*_the Son_*_ he _*_[the Father]_*_ saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom._ *the Father*

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

Read Acts 2: Peter full of the Holy Spirit says: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath *God raised up,* whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, *The LORD said unto my Lord,* Sit thou on my right hand, *Until I make thy foes thy footstool.* Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that *God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.* Acts 2 The most quoted Old Testament Scripture is Ps 110:1 and Jesus will someday have his enemies made his footstool then the end will come: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. *For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.* For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: *Christ the firstfruits;* afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when *he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,* even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. *But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.* And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, *that God may be all in all.* 1 Cor 15

[@romanstwelvetwokjv9976]

@Sage of Synergism _>>> praying is not talking to yourself, when jesus prayed he said "not as I will, but as you will"_ That's another great passage of scripture... *MATTHEW 26* [39] And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. [40] And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? [41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: *THE SPIRIT INDEED IS WILLING, BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK.* One part of a person: willing. Another part of a person: NOT willing. Two different wills. One and the same person. _>>> Do you agree the SON created the heavens and the earth ?_ Yes. Jesus, who is the Father AND the Son, created the heaven and the earth. A "second person of the trinity" did not do that, because the "three people who are all 'God' but are not three Gods" doctrine is incoherent.

[@romanstwelvetwokjv9976]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist _>>> This Jesus hath God raised up..._ Amen! Also, *JOHN **2:19* Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *>>> I

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@romanstwelvetwokjv9976 Yes, Jesus said that, He spoke the Words God Commanded him to say. The entire rest of the the New Testament all witnesses say that God raised Jesus from the Dead. Study how many times Jesus says He has a God and How often the Apostles say Jesus has a God. For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers and asking that *the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,* the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. Ep 1