John Wesley on The Means of Grace (and Sacraments)

And the grace of Holy Communion

[@patriciapost962]

Thank you so helpful to know more about Wesley. Looking forward to more of what he actually taught.

[@fernandoperez8587]

You can also hear John Wesley's sermons here on KZbin and on biblehub you can see Wesley's commentary on the Bible.

[@ma-mo]

I'm a new subscriber - a Nazarene - very much enjoying these instructive videos. Thank you for the tremendous work you are putting into these.

[@IronPyromancer]

I'm a long time catechized and confirmed member of the Lutheran Church, though I was baptized Methodist. Given that my Lutheran Church as well as all of the others in my area are all ELCA and that they are very Progressive while I myself in a confessional Lutheran, I found myself going back to my family's Church which is now a global Methodist Church. I've also been Discerning Seminary, and I've been trying to figure out if I can convert in good conscience, and the Eucharist is undoubtedly been my biggest obstacle.

[@danielhixon8209]

God bless you in your discernment. I look for great things from The Global Methodist Church. Have you looked at Anglicanism (the ACNA)? If you are wondering whether Methodist and Lutheran views of the Eucharist are compatible, I think that they are if you are thinking of the view that Christ's body and blood are "in, with, and under" the elements of bread and wine. Wesley's notes on the New Testament do put forward a "low", almost memorialist view, but they do not say "it is only this" and his sermons provide a more robust theology of Real Presence. Even beyond the sermons, you might check out Wesley's Hymns on the Lord's Supper to see if you can "fit within" their theology. Also, I've been told that the main Article that the Lutherans objected to in the Anglican 39 Articles was (Anglican) Article 29, "Of the Wicked, which eat not the Body of Christ..." but this was one of the Articles that Wesley omitted in preparing the Methodist version of the Articles of Religion.

[@IronPyromancer]

@@danielhixon8209 I very much like the ACNA, but much like the Confessional Lutheran Churches, I'd love to go, but there just aren't any in a reasonable distance. And yes, the only real issue on the Supper between Lutherans and Anglicans is that Anglicans believe it is a faith based presence as opposed to an objective presence. I'm still discerning on that.

[@Outrider74]

It was very interesting to discover that Wesley himself did not hold the same view of the sacraments as modern Wesleyans do. I was shocked to see that Wesley was actually closer to Luther in the sacrament than what is put forth in the modern Nazarene and Free Methodist churches. I heard an Easter play a few years back at a Free Methodist church, where one of the characters was supposed to be quoting Jesus at the Last Supper and she said "He said 'This represents my body'." I was shocked. First, that is NOT what was said; Jesus said "This is my body." Second, Wesley himself would have torn apart that sentiment had he heard it himself.

[@danielhixon8209]

There are some “loose/paraphrase” type Bibles that translate the words of institution like that, but obviously that is a lot of interpretation “built into” the translation. But yes, the Wesley brothers have a higher view of the sacraments than most churches and preachers who claim the name “Wesleyan” - though they still combined that with a high view of personal conversion, rather than pitting the two in opposition.

[@erintramill9100]

can you give scriptures to back up "means of grace"? I'm new to the Methodist Church and I'm researching

[@danielhixon8209]

I don't think you will find the term "means of grace" in the Bible, but clearly you see God moving in response to prayer (so people experience Grace having prayed - Mt. 6:6, Acts 4:31), you see that we experience the presence of Christ and the power of his Body and Blood given for us through holy Communion (1 Cor. 10:16-17), you see that God gives grace through baptism (Rom. 6:1-5; Gal. 3:27; Titus 3:5), you see that the Scripture leads us to Christ (2 Tim. 3:15-17); note also the "reward" promised in Matt. 6 in connection with fasting and giving generously - so God does in fact promise to meet us with his presence, his grace, his power, as we engage in this Biblical practices. This is in fact what it means (what else could it mean?) that James 4:8 says "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you"

[@karldo4809]

Do the Christian Missionary Alliance, Church of God in Christ, Assemblies of God and Foursquare have means of grace in their theology? If so, did they get that from Wesleyan theology? I noticed these denominations are members of the Wesleyan Holiness Connection which the UMC is also a member. Do you any good Methodist book on means of grace?

[@danielhixon8209]

I really don't know much about the "on the ground" teaching in any of those other bodies. Of course they practice prayer and Bible reading and fasting and baptism and so on. My guess would be that there is at least some embrace of the "means of grace" among the theologians or in the official theological documents (though perhaps not as explicitly as you find it in Wesley), but that teaching might not always reach down to the pews. That kind of disconnect seems to be a perennial issue in every church or denomination. One easy book I really like is called "Eight Life-Enriching Practices of United Methodists" by Knight (the book is better than the title).

[@augustineonuigbo9360]

Ps leave out Catholicism from these heresy