Spirit Baptism and John Wesley: Seven Minute Seminary

[@louisaccardi6808]

When I was 17 years old I was converted in 1968 in a Black holiness church in Detroit. The revival services were going every night for almost a month during which time I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which made a huge difference in my life. The Bible came alive, I received a boldness I never had (I was always quiet and shy before) and I became a personal witness seeing people born of the Spirit. I did have a full assurance of salvation after that second work. Since then I have been a part of Assembly of God, Church of God Cleveland, Tenn. Nazarene and Free Methodist as well as independent charismatic churches. I didn't like the lack of emphasis in the Charismatic churches on heart holiness or living a holy life, which I learned in the Black holiness church I was converted in. Further I saw too much carnality and loose living after their so-called baptism with the Spirit. I came out of the Charismatic movement into holiness and Pentecostal churches because they didn't use as much mechanical devices to get people to speak in tongues. Of course, the holiness churches didn't encourage speaking in tongues but living sanctified after being sanctified. The lack of deep repentance and sanctification in churches today is a huge concern. how we need a new movement of true holiness without all of the trappings. I was originally taught that tongues isn't the Baptism with the Spirit, but that was an experience by itself and tongues was the evidence that would come once you had the inward experience. I now think we should emphasize the evidence as a transformed life and the fruit of the Spirit as well as the power to be an authentic witness of Christ. I do continue to believe in the gifts of the Spirit including tongues, but have seen some of these counterfeited and manipulated to some extent through the years.

[@brotherjim5904]

Unfortunately -- in a way, Fruits cannot be evidence as you suggest. "By their Fruits you shall know them" is referring to those who are proselytized being a reflection of their mentors. Human "envy & strife" (KJV), etc. prevents those who lack a mature Fruit from recognizing it another. And John 2:23-25 is a widely applicable teaching that should reveal God's disdain of evidences. He prefers remainng unprovable [by us to others - ed.], found only by Faith and other Grace, "so that no flesh shall glory in His Sight."

[@maenicholas1316]

Good

[@joshuamartinpryce8424]

The Holy Spirit needs no introduction, someone with half a brain can see how relevant and important The Holy Spirit is.

[@brotherjim5904]

Using Wesley's quad approach, I would have to disagree with him if in fact this video correctly conveys his theology, and I assume it accurately does (and I'm a big fan of the Wesleyan Heritage Library CD). I believe what we incorrectly term the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (prefering rather EQUIPPING of the HS -- see my other comment) is one subsequent experience; and the instantaneous fullness of Agape' Love another experience -- and there are even more manifestations available. Just as a small minority might receive both the New Birth and the Equipping/Empowering/Baptism the same time or day or week, also rare would be Love's perfection manifested along with the Equipping/E/B, but it obviously happens -- which I assume is what happened to Wesley. You'll find extremely few tongue speaking charismatics who also give testimony of Love perfected in them. [ Ed. - Objectively speaking. [But people will always limit theology to either that which they've personally experienced, or that which they are willing to yet undergo and have the Faith to believe, further compounding the problem. It's human denial and self-justification and ego - or at times, simply ignorance in knowing what is additionally available. [I despise the phrase "Christian perfection," as I do much that fuels pride and ego, but the man doing this video gave the best concise take of it I've ever heard or read, being so careful to parenthetically state what is does NOT mean, him knowing how otherwise it could be misconstrued. [I am led at times to give testimony of how Grace instantaneously dropped into me the fullness of God's Agape' Love. It is as was stated here. But like an historical testimony on the Wesleyan Heritage Library CD, its giving had to be preceded by something personally difficult to soften the heart. For "her," if I recall it was the death of her husband. [Just one staunch disagreement I would have, is the person he quotes (C. David) referring to the instant and full manifestation of the Love of God as including deliverance from all sin -- hence, I'm guessing, a past reference I recall elsewhere of the phrase "sinless perfection." To correct: it's deliverance from the sin of which we are consciously aware. Remaining will be others unaware, and hopefully for subsequent revelation, repentance, deliverance, and replacement with yet another Fruit in its fullness. Just because Wesley didn't live long enough for the next step.... [It's not merely a lag as to why the disciples were made to wait decades until the writing of what became the NT books. Unless they had first gone through the multiple baptizings of removal of their heart's idols and them replaced with the fullness of Fruits, they would've twisted and perverted the Words given them - like we all have done - via self-justification.]

[@brotherjim5904]

Ummm...I need to withdraw my suggestion. I no longer think proper the term "Equipping of the Holy Ghost/Spirit" a good replacement for the misnomer "Baptism of the HG/HS." It connotes the idea that a subsequent-to-salvation/justification experience is a once and done event. I'm afraid to insist that we really must make an adjunct to the English language, making "baptizing" a noun in addition to its current usage as a verb. :) Then we can say, after justification there are additional baptizings of God's Spirit, the first usually being a baptizing of the Holy Ghost upon us, a cloak if you will, an additional manifestation of God's Spirit: A GARMENT OF PRAISE (period -- though it may at times be given along with an additional Grace).

[@brotherjim5904]

Perhaps best, terminology wise, would to simply refer to the Acts 2:3 additional Grace as the Holy Ghost (sic) upon us. (Using S(s)pirit for the Grace of justification; reverting to the KJV verbage duality.)

[@meganotofthisworld]

the holiness doctrine is dying. nobody can define it anymore. the more you listen to those who still profess and teach it, it's getting more funny and sad in the same time, bc everyone gives a different definition of it.

[@calvinpeterson9581]

Most in the holiness movement shifted to pentecostalism, which is the fastest growing denomination.

[@louisaccardi6808]

@@calvinpeterson9581 The Pentecostal movement isn't a denomination, but a number of different Pentecostal denominations with slightly different emphasis. Did you know that the Nazarene Church was originally called the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene even though they didn't allow tongues in their services. The Holiness movement did believe in a personal Pentecost experience but didn't emphasize speaking in tongues. They were Wesleyan. I have found that many Pentecostal members are ignorant of church history (The Wesleyan and Holiness Movements) and think they understand everything about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit when they know little. Ask some of them if they know what regeneration is (Titus 3: 5) or what the witness of the Spirit is. You will be surprised. There is much in the O.T. about the Holy Spirit that is not taught very deeply either. Another thing, many of the Pentecostal churches here in the U.S., are as dead as a door nail, while over half of them have never experienced the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

[@calvinpeterson9581]

@@louisaccardi6808 Yeah I would agree. The point I was more making is that there wasn't a huge group of people converted and some how disappeared or fell away. Rather they are in other groups that are similar to the holiness origins. For without the holiness movement, the Pentecostal movement would not have come into existence. Between methodism/ Wesleyan and Nazarene Churches there is only a few it seems that are left. In which I would more closely align to their beliefs than much of the Pentecostal movement. But even though there is differences, the theology is very similar.

[@louisaccardi6808]

@@calvinpeterson9581 That is true. Back in the 1970s when I attended a Nazarene church they still believed in being sanctified as a second work of grace. They weren't trying to get anyone sanctified like they were years earlier though. Now that same pastor is retired and is ashamed of the Wesleyan doctrine of heart holiness and seems to not even hold to it anymore. I think something similar has happened to the Pentecostal groups like the Assembly of God denomination, now that many of the old timers have gone on there are few coming up through the ranks that are claiming to have had a full baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to believe in an experience doctrinally and actually having the experience. When we read about the great men of God historically they all seemed to have an experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. D.L. Moody, Charles Finney, Samuel Logan Brengle, and many others. They may not crossed their "t" and dotted their "i" the same doctrinally, but they had an experience that marked their ministries with power as evidenced in the impact of their ministries.

[@robertnieten7259]

@@louisaccardi6808 I heard at one time that the Baptist church taught that Acts ch.2:38 is the plan of salvation. Anyone else ever hear this ?