After Socrates: Episode 9 - Metanoia | Dr. John Vervaeke

In this episode, John explores the concept of metanoia, a transformative change of heart, through the lens of Antisthenes and the Cynic tradition. He begins by discussing the processes of differentiation and integration, referencing J.A. Scot Kelso's work on understanding dynamic coordination in the brain. The conversation then turns to Antisthenes' teachings and his emphasis on conversation as a means to redirect and reorient attention.
John delves into the Cynic philosophy, which seeks to challenge conventions and societal norms, and he explains the distinction between purity codes and moral codes. He then discusses the importance of practical wisdom (phronesis) as opposed to theoretical wisdom (sophia), highlighting the role of improvisation in honing this practical wisdom. As the conversation comes to a close, John introduces the idea of metanoia and its relevance to communication, pointing to the works of George J. Thompson, Luke A. Archer, and Marshall Rosenberg as resources for further exploration.
Throughout the episode, John also references the work of several other thinkers, including Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Heraclitus, Cratylus, and Ludwig Wittgenstein, shedding light on the historical context and development of the ideas discussed.
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After Socrates is a series about how to create the theory, the practice, and the ecology of practices such that we can live and grow and develop through a Socratic way of life. The core argument is; the combination of the theoretical framework and the pedagogical program of practices can properly conduct us into the Socratic way of life. We believe that the Socratic way of life is what is most needed today because it is the one that can most help us cultivate wisdom in a way that is simultaneously respectful to spiritual tradition and to current scientific work.

[@johnvervaeke]

Please remember to engage in the practices from this series! *It is ok* if you need to go back to previous episodes to revisit the previous practices.

[@dalibofurnell]

I'm thinking about writing a piece laying out my answers to your questions or points to ponder. I seem to already have it in my brain inventory . All episodes are special thx

[@Ac-ip5hd]

You should speak to Bishop Maximus about our transfiguration of metanoia and Stoicism in the Philokalia when as Tillich states it was the real competition to Christianity before Neoplatonism was the final holdout and system cut and pasted into whenever someone wants to make a new religion. A look at why we have purity codes in religion and why modern crazy movements look just like the early heresies would be good as well. That also ties to Orthodox typology and understanding of spirits and giants vs the Jungian, pagan, and universalist typology. It’s an understanding of sorcery and scientism as well, that has been beaten around the bush when you put forth a stealing of the culture and new religion that puts forth academia’s language then bars full religious and transcendental argumentation from the dialogos. Post modern move. There’s also a big difference between believing in evolution and the hubris of spiritual evolutionism and it’s obvious anti identity expressions in political dialectics, cults, modern art, and things like say our Grammy’s and Babylonian sex temples on Epstein Island. Symbolism happens, and it’s been pushed for two centuries by both demythologized rationalist theories with Neoplatonic and esoteric roots as well as full out esotericism. That isn’t just woke Gnosticism, it’s also in the Weimar Republic/Babylon Berlin prior to Hitler, playing out the biblical pattern of idolatry and fall of the kingdom, no different than Enoch, Saul’s use of treasure from giants (nephilim descendants with forbidden knowledge l), the warnings to Nineveh, or the loss of the kingdom of Solomon after his dark arts and taking of an Egyptian wife with her hermetic gods, that anyone can find throughout the Jungian literature synthesized into this project. To make the case outside a linear conspiracy, but look at instances of the patterns in history, we can see it in the French Revolution or the Wotan essay you and Anderson Todd spoke of in the JBP and the shadow conversation. I believe it is naive to think you can fix it by a unified synthesis. It’s also in American history with the Rockefeller funding of German liberal theology and HVD. Anyone can look up the relationship between Edith Rockefeller and C.G. Jung, who convinced her that she was King Tut’s wife before she became a Jungian analyst and pushed similar ideas as Ralph Waldo Emerson, Elizabeth Peabody, John Dewey, Bertrand Russel and plenty more. Sorry, but this has also contributed to the meaning crisis as well, and things like marriage rates after the culture war. The dodging of this and belief it can be unified and fixed is dishonest and naive. And it wasn’t just a “purity code” that was broken. It’s also in a feedback loop with hard right backlash. You are correct to critique the having mode, and neoliberalism or occasionally conservatism or the bad hermenuetics of fundamentalism without a participatory theology and monastic tradition. But you are one sided in this whole claiming meta policity and limp wristed on new age esotericism and these Neoplatonic dialectics, or similar projects and beliefs to yours. I add that to your trying to save post modernism as necessary to critique language games, as well as corrupt and globalist egalitarianism with very similar views to yours. It is also stuck in dialectics and academia and will be swallowed by them when they have to use your grammar, and the spirit of the surrounding projects which are post modern, even when too cowardly and passive aggressive to admit it, or naively thinking they fixed it by adding meta modern or post post modern to it. Or calling Gnostic secular sorcery “emergentism.” Neoplatonism as university rather than stoicism with an archetypal anima in an exaggerated Hypatia is another part of this. Because you can’t match up Stoicism and journaling to naturalism and it’s philosophies as easily to evolve religions in your direction that existed with the radical (heretical) platonists that fled Byzantium to influence humanism in Italy. Stoicism is just a hurdle for that, and Epicureanism died for a reason, never quite being taken as serious as Aristotelian thought, but more a serious problem to the Stoics. The Wisdom of Hypatia starts with Epicurus for the purpose of conditioning one’s attitude towards death and the soul, as Christ says all who hate me worship death. Then this “reverse engineering” (Pageau’s necromancy) is done to use Eastern meditation and a Jungian extension of consciousness to savor, as though all this is required. Deism and and athiest movements from those critiqued by Dante to the Nietzsche found the “mighty Epicurus” useful in this regard. The real thing here is just journaling, meditating and doing Stoicism won’t create this chiliastic enthusiasm to integrate and transcend existing religions in a spiritual terrorist cell format to make something new the way secular sorcery, alchemical phenomenology into philosophy, and pagan syncretism can.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

You should also discuss the chiliasm that broke out of Christianity after scholasticism as well and wether or not this project, those surrounding it, thousand year Reichs, communism, Jacobin socialism, and wokeness, neoliberalism, New Age, Game B, Jungian beliefs in a 600 year religion, the WEF are all chiliastic movements. The goals of chiliasm can also be seen throughout science fiction and the positive interpretations and hopes of UFO sightings/beliefs (when they don’t show their demonic underbelly.) Dune, and Rebel Wisdom’s love of it is a good example: a ecumenical and syncretic Islam and Orange Catholic Bible is engineered through intellect and psychically powered people, some with supercomputer minds. They have transcended their humanity to have occult powers and make a Gnostic transcendence to a new religion after rebellion against capitalist archonic overlords and their Nazi Harkon Archon troops. With Neoplatonic process theology and philosophy, and hey who cares if there was eugenics through abortion as long as it was done by mystic women through abortion, any issue with that is just purity codes. And they said the magic word process a bunch of times and have an anima figure so now it’s good. And I can say from participating in John’s project 70-80% of its vocal participants and emergent parallel projects are about as chiliastic, morally relativist, and metadoublepostmodern integral theory as they come. The closest they come to understanding evil is greed and power, beyond that it’s evil that isn’t evil to be opponent processed by a good that isn’t a good after unending dialogos when it’s too late. Like the two years and two cognitive science shows it took to say lock downs are bad. Which is ok for John and followers because that allows the breakdown of the culture they want to steal away by what they are amenable to and think they can do right. Or too timid to police their own tribe. Synthesis way too late in comparison to the larger dialectic. That comes also from a dialectical theology, even if a theology that’s not a theology.

[@wehsee912]

N37⭕️

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

I feel blessed that I can listen to you.

[@gettingtogive]

The strength and depth of your argument just builds every week. I feel words can’t properly express my gratitude for you sharing this life changing work, but it’s all I currently have, so thank you very much John 🙏

[@anavartalitis8425]

"To play with language so that it shows rather than tells..." very profound; almost poetic!

[@PeterIntrovert]

What I like in your teaching John is that it's becoming more and more relevant and selient as time fly. What was simple sentense, simple message at first change with time into element of coherent net that is able to catch profound meanings in. Thank you for your work and waiting to see and learn more from you. :)

[@watcherofvideoswasteroftim5788]

It's amazing being able to empirically verify what is being talked about in a deeper and deeper way.

[@das3841]

You beautiful man. Thank you for beautifying the world. Amen Amen!

[@climbingmt.sophia]

It's like a symphony of Wisdom lost in anagogic crescendo. I'm constantly in gratitude knowing that I can return to these videos repeatedly

[@gettingtogive]

100% agree

[@jeffk862]

I've really dove head first into your work over the last few months, and it all rings very true to me. One very simple semantic point I'd like to make to you is that your choice of using the word "Being" as in being mode, seems like something you could "have" as in the having mode. To me what your describing seems more like a "Becoming" mode rather than a being mode. Being implies Being in one location, where the state of Becoming is like going on a walk. This plays into all of your emphasis on Relevance Realization, Saliance Landscaping, and how all of that pertains to the sensorimotor system. Miniscule point in the grand scheme of your work but I figured I'd add to your dialogos. Appreciate everything you do Mr. Vervaeke! Edit: Another thought that came to mind. A state of being implies something that is attainable, where becoming is something that is inexhaustible, and dare i say sacred!

[@Beederda]

I appreciate YOUR time JV ❤️🍄

[@brendantannam499]

As I took my constitutional around the park today, I was listening to John and my ears perked up at 25:40 about the function of logos. I remember Rupert Sheldrake’s idea that the structural formation - the arrangement - of the different parts of the body come from the invisible world, in morphic fields. Could this be the logos of the structure of the physical body? It would leave the actual composition of the body parts alone to be the work of proteins such as amino acids. The rest of the work is logos in action. So logos organises both human consciousness and physicality. I think this must also apply to all of nature. Structurally, then, it is behind everything. Is this eidetic eduction? Is it the idea of bringing things out of a framework? I guess it brings the framework of total existence to a unity and so this is why it has always been said that it would be best for us to live in harmony with such a force.

[@benjaminchabot6658]

Hello John, I hope this message finds you well. Over the years, I've been following your guidance, and I find your insights both fascinating and incredibly valuable. Thank you for investing in my growth; it has made a significant difference in my life. Lately, I’ve noticed that while my theoretical and practical wisdom seems to be growing exponentially (with some sprinkle of self-deception here and there), my partner's wisdom follows a more linear and average increase that comes with age and life experiences. This contrast has led me to reflect on the role of wisdom in relationships. I wonder if an orientation towards wisdom is a fundamental element that can either make or break a relationship. Specifically, I'm concerned about the possible consequences of an ever-increasing gap in wisdom between two partners. While we share love, I fear that as I continue to grow, we may eventually encounter challenges when the difference in wisdom becomes too significant, creating a disconnect akin to an adult being in a relationship with an adolescent (in terms of ego development, for instance). I understand that these questions may not have straightforward answers, but I would be immensely grateful if you could address this topic in some way or guide me to resources that can provide further insight. Your perspective would be exceptionally helpful for my ongoing reflection. Thank you once again for being a remarkable mentor, and I look forward to your thoughts on this matter. Warm regards, Benjamin Chabot

[@categoryerror7]

28:26 this whole section had me resonating with a very vivid realization of something I think John said early on in Awakening which is “don’t confuse the language with the thing in itself”. It first clicked for me when I was thinking through some questions about language itself and how it maps onto raw phenomenology, inner dialogue etc. and I’ve since heard Tim Maudlin use a similar phrase when talking about the philosophy of science related to mathematics. I often come back to this and repeat it to myself, I find it extremely powerful as a concise reframing tool.

[@Root1627]

This was helpful for me to better conceptualize and see the Christian practice of repentance (The New Testament uses metanoia for repentance). Surely Jesus of Nazareth compelled a whole new vision, not just a new set of propositions.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

💯

[@ScaniaEtPalingenesis]

John Vervaeke is superb!

[@martinchikilian]

Thanks for another great episode, John & crew! I'm looking forward to learning more about how to cultivate metanoia both internally and when facing the community. I also think it could be useful to do a quick recap on what got us here where propositional argumentation (and the winners and losers of such endeavor) is all that seems to matter these days.

[@clumsydad7158]

"cultivate" "repectful"ly ... words to live by

[@EcologicalEconomi]

42:00 Oh my. The moment when JV pulls out my first impro book/bible: Truth in Comedy...

[@121rev]

Another sense in which we cannot contradict, and forgive me if this has already been said in comments above, is that in order to be intelligible to each other we must have a broad ground of agreement already in place (or in play) for a disagreement to be salient. So 'contradiction' is only a short-sighted view of the totality, in which (on the whole) the is necessarily broad and profound agreement. We can only 'disagree' if/when we have agreed on so much more that makes our distinction relevant or sensical. This brings nuance to the description of A as a matchmaker, bringing people together - even in vehement disagreement they are closer than they might at first suspect.

[@_ARCATEC_]

Bleed through

[@mavoca-frngrk]

The concept of the purity code is intriguing, and its connection to our genetic wiring, such as feeling disgust to avoid health risks. To what extent should we deliberately work on overcoming feelings of disgust related to social purity codes, especially when it doesn't violate moral or rational grounds? For example, if one feels uncomfortable with gender pronouns, should they practice overcoming this feeling?

[@sensespacepodcast]

Really feeling the Shaman/Medicine man energy coming through here 25:13 John. There's more going on in these mind-altering hand movements than meets the eye. I think if I saw that in a ceremony I would definitely be discerning some animal spirits coming through you. -Jacob

[@_ARCATEC_]

⭐High Value Content 😎👍

[@VahnAeris]

Thanks for sharing those insights with us 🙏

[@MrGullbroed]

There is a living Antisthenes in Chico, California. His name is Maximus Peperkamp, and he speaks about embodies language versus disembodied language. He is also able to explain the difference in terms of behavioral science, which seems to be totally overlooked in your lectures, John. Maximus is critical of Non-Violent Communication, which he thinks doesn’t cut it at all. He is always available for ratio religio with other people. His Skype name (which he openly shares) is limbicease

[@leedufour]

Thanks John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@vashra4826]

🙏

[@billschwandt1]

On the being disoriented from each other bit before 31:11 mark. I'm imagining a situation where we are measuring a piece of wood to cut and we both make a mark at 46 but the marks don't line up. This is only symptomatic of the fact that we did not specify what measure and so our purposes are crossed.

[@projectmalus]

In other words possibly, at 40:48 the mention of phronesis which is not being angry, or not angry, but being that which is appropriate. In this case, objectifying the world provides some room to maneuver into that space of appropriate relations. Morality and ethics in the same person...my object in the world object and how that's both a spirograph and pantograph as actions/relations. We didn't specify which measure since people objectify differently. The crossed purpose happened a long time ago and the stress produced knowledge. The problem is the fragility of recorded knowledge.

[@SP-ny1fk]

In the West we need to dress things up in explanations, but in the east is is understood as the difference between experiencing love (removing the obstacles preventing a person from experiencing love) and not experiencing love. Meaning comes from listening from the heart.

[@_ARCATEC_]

💓

[@quentissential]

33:55... Propositions as askesis, labor and ponos is helpful.

[@gilscott1733]

I think the relational between propositional knowledge and the non propositional may be tilted to much toward the non propositional (over compensation). Perhaps the issue is the relation of Sophia to phronesis, which is to say the relation of experience to reflection upon experience.

[@tompeel]

I’m now watching these post Snowden on the Stoa. I really hope John and Dave get to practice some verbal judo and NVC together

[@valeria6751]

Snowden has a lot of opinions 😏 and some good intuitions, but he does not even know Vervaeke's work enough to know how to pronounce his name.🤷‍♀ But if we want them to talk until they agree, reach some kind of consensus, or if have a voice in us wanting to find out which one of them is right... I think we have missed the point of what Vervaeke is talking about.

[@GodwardPodcast]

Absolutely great stuff. Have you read Peter Kingsley? Appreciate the series.

[@MrMarktrumble]

Thank you

[@mathematikexplained6144]

12:10 for clarification, what did Plato do? Write dialogs? Create a pseudo-religion? Fuse Socratic ideas with others (notably Pythagoras)?

[@mathematikexplained6144]

25:13 sorry, I guess John answers already: Plato is unraveling while Antisthenes is condensing. Sound to me a bit like quantity vs. quality, though I’m well aware that both were conscious of both.

[@quentissential]

32:20 ask Pageau about this and Adam naming the animals

[@TagHoowah]

The enunciated annunciation of the Logos is a pronounced pronouncement - “I am”

[@dalibofurnell]

Hi John, Do you think that in some way, Antisthenes was a perfectionist or had a perfectionistic streak? Apologies if this is not a valid question. I am just wondering about something, and I am not sure whether to tug on the line of thought or not. I suppose I am looking for some sort of direction. I both know and I don't know what I am asking, but perhaps something sparks in your brain or you could refer me as to where to look or seek intuitively. I have gone through this video 3 different times.

[@AdielShnior]

40:30 thank you for that.

[@MDSaunders]

Reading through the gospel of Mark, I noticed this: “John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance (metanoias) for the remission of sins.” ‭‭Mark‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭ Edit: Sorry John, I can imagine Christianity is a sensitive subject for you, but I could not help but think of you when I read it.

[@5hydroxyT]

the way you explain the philosophy of the cynics makes it sound like the ultimate response to bullshit...in this sense becoming ‘cynical’ seems like a totally appropriate response in the age of modernity!

[@adamgolding]

I love inner conflict, lol

[@duffgordon9005]

Metanoi, gk. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE change of heart- IT IS A SEA CHANGE OF THE WAY YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING

[@yazanasad7811]

2:Meta desires (desires that satisfy possessing desires): inner peace and touches reality. Identifying and differentiation leads to emergence - brett Man lion animal - leads to anagoge (out of cave) It is impossible to contradict (because same orientation would lead to same views) It is impossible to define the essence Antithnesis against logic, he speaks more like koans Logos - logos is the annunciation that is or was(can reveals discloses what is or was) Foreground background notice revelation, not just propositional. Show not tell

[@yazanasad7811]

Don't listen to my words but listen to the Word beyond or within them. All things are one - heraclitus If people sized up things correctly, they wouldn't see things in contradicts. When disoriented we talk at cross purposes -- anti shame practices. what were they? We do these to provoke, horizontal element, creative to get people to question conventions, assume different perspectives. Different roles. Different situations so can inhabit different perspectives anger: not about witholding anger but about when to be angry to what degree for the right reason. (practical wisdom - in harmony with the context). This is phronesis (a type of wisdom) training in improv is also recommended. Truth and Comedy; Improv Handbook -- co-orientation; making sure participants are co-ordinated properly before beginning a conversation/topic. harmonious conversation (bodies/souls aligned, matchmaking and setting the right conditions to allow natural branching out for a more convergent yet disagreeable topic. how can this be done through text?) Cynic: track appearances that disclose reality (hermenueitcs of beauty). When say illusion, means something should be real. suspicion is dependent on reality/beauty. socrates/Tolle: Look at all the things I dont need (can remember this maxim) Also: I'm looking for one honest man. (relying on honest people when looking for things - are they honest in the workplace(freudian slip)/marketplace) Diogenes: I can give you anything you want, can you please move a little to the left (blocking the sun); give me a plate full of cheese so I may feast when I please. Same idea

[@yazanasad7811]

convention - subject to corruption/decay, unstable, disappointing long term. Shame is used to pretend that these conventions are truly real. Doesn't allow us to question. conventions help to stabilise identities. rational justification for morality/law. moral law natural law (cynics follow these - moral laws following natural laws; deeper into reality) Pay attention to shaming. Not offering rational justifications. purity code. b/s. does not track reality, no questioning. other people's purity codes we say it's silly. metanoia - changing of orientation, noticing of it so can change. Direct it to phronesis (what really matter in this situation) books: verbal judo (gentle art of pesurarion) verbal akido non violent communication

[@IAm1InTheIAm]

I came seeking a discourse on Metanoeo. Was this episode mis labeled?

[@maggiey2671]

this man is reading me to filth!! don't know how else to say it !!! LOL !!

[@projectmalus]

I find my typical power relations get disturbed, less complacent.

[@maggiey2671]

@@projectmalus YES !

[@projectmalus]

@@maggiey2671 I think that I figured out the reward though...the false ceiling of the person is removed, which freedom feels unrewarded at first. Thanks.

[@maggiey2671]

@@projectmalus i understand you completely. we'll keep going !

[@Identity_Withheld]

Studying metanoia without experiencing metanoia doesn't make you an authority on metanoia. If I gave a lecture on piloting a plane from NYC to London without ever having learned how to pilot an aircraft, but I had enough empirical and technological information on the controls of the aircraft and the procedures to be followed, would this diminish the academic value of my lecture? This lecture appears to be purely academic and you are explaining your interpretation of what you have read. Metanoia destroys the believer's beliefs, one belief at a time until there is nothing left but what the belief represents and, in many cases, misrepresents. We are educated to believe that each word in the dictionary is what it represents. The fact is that we can only believe what we do not know. Metanoia is an involuntary spontaneous autonomous experience that is relentless and can feel horrific.

[@DaveTheTurd]

This one is cruising by above my head.... Going to need to regroup, and watch it again (and possibly again), because my gut tells me this is important info.... that it will be worth the pursuit....

[@upperratio9087]

It helps to actually take notes, it gives added focus and comprehension for some reason, in my experience.

[@latneyblunk3643]

🙏

[@אברהםקלנר]

🙏