Joker: Folie à Deux and Confronting Toxic Fans

[@libernihilus]

This is an excellent take on the film. I had similar thoughts while watching it, but you've assembled and articulated them meaningfully. It's got an inverse moral code, where the protag is the villain, so harley being the antag of the film to me works for her here. She's actually the sort of tragic hero of the story, and she's a victim to her own fucked up kind of "idealism" because she's not in love with Arthur, she's in love with this sort of elemental detachment and viciousness that he represents, and when he gets this tiny glimmer of self-realization before the end, she's utterly repulsed by it. This is another kind of toxic attachment, that mirrors the toxic attachment of men to violence and retribution, this sort of false notion of love that will always lead to disappointment because it isn't based in anything genuine.

[@victorbottino7886]

Thank you for starting this conversation.

[@My20GUNS]

I actually loved Joker 2. I didn't like Joker 1 that much because it felt so derivative of better movies (Taxi Driver & King of Comedy) and stuffed with serial killer clichés. I loved the last act though, because it finally felt tense, original & interesting. Joker 2 was a huge step up in terms of style, direction, & cinematography. I didn't mind the pacing, and the musical scenes actually won me over. I think it's legitimately a good movie and has a ton of depth (something the first Joker movie lacked.) I loved the opening cartoon and thought it was great forshadowing for the ending. All the acting was fantastic, Joaquin Phoenix, Lady Gaga, & Leigh Gill as Gary are particularly noteworthy. I appreciated all the commentary on Joker (both the character & the first film), people's response to the Joker, and the struggle Arthur went though. (I didn't remember his real name after watching the first movie, but I did after Joker 2. I disagree that he was raped/sexually assaulted. Maybe I need to watch it again, but I got the impression the guards just beat him up after. The ending itself was also something I loved. It worked on a couple levels for me: some guy literally killing Arthur to take the mantle of Joker was a ballsy choice and fits in a cool subversion (unlike the last Jedi.) Or calling back to the first movie's ending & the opening cartoon, it was an hallucination and the shadow/Joker part of his mind conquors and kills Arthur. Either way only Joker remains. The people getbwhat they want.

[@coreybananas]

Just leaving a comment for the algorithm cuz this was a really great video

[@pseudofenton]

> if you make a film which is made to be hated, and people hate it, did you not objectively make a good movie? Successful, perhaps, instead of good. In that it succeeded in doing what it set out to do.

[@lexutterstrom1615]

Since the film released i've waited for a video like this! It's been so frustrating seeing people shit on the film for the wrong reasons. It's so clear they are upset but don't understand *why*, so their critiques fall flat etc. Great video. Hope this reaches the right crowd! :)

[@maniachaelgaming]

You dropped another banger. I think you made a lot of great points!

[@ruepx]

Totally agree ive been thinking why is this joker so much fking weak and ur point made everything clear cuz even when the guards abused him he didnt appear as joker bc arthur can NOT handle joker

[@GiriT10939]

It’s not just about the “message”, the movie lacks momentum, it has such a weird pacing, the ending regardless of what it was, felt extremely hurried. And the film unlike the first one has a severe lack of iconic and memorable dialogues, frankly I don’t recall even a single line from Joker 2. Also the characters were mostly wooden, that could be described with a single word- Harvey Dent- Lawyer, Ricky- Friend, Jackie- tough guard, Catherine- Arthur’s lawyer etc, there wasn’t any depth or backstory to any of them. No matter how many spins people give, the movie failed internationally too as it didn’t resonate as the execution was so poor.

[@primetyrant2891]

I mean, where else could the movie go besides "the moment of catharsis doesnt make you feel better, even if you accidentaly created a construct of Joker you dont become the Joker, you remain ill and weak and you die alone" as a story of Joker? Yes, movie could explore Gotham more, class struggle, the elites, but the movie is about Joker, not socioeconomics. We already know the reasons from the previous one, and Harley sheds enough of a light to develop this side of the issue I think. Speaking of "does it make it a good movie", its not about if the movie is good or not, its about if its successful. If the goal was to safely fix seaquelitus and try to poison image of the literaly me that was created on accident, then it is. Also, if you dont go looking for a great movie, but for a steaming pile of shit author takes on toxic fans and greedy corpos, then it is mildly entertaining in a morbid way.

[@TheKiddtic]

loooooooved the commentary on this, im cuentky writing an article about films like this and will cite this video

[@mrxmx8489]

Comment to push the algorithm cause this video essay is awesome

[@theabbott4886]

This is an incredible video just wanted to say

[@pewterkat]

Thank you thank you thank you! Even people who panned it typically miss the point. I

[@robinronin]

As someone who has Jurassic World as their most rewatched film and literally watched it for the nth time last week, having it mentioned here made me feel so called out 😂

[@HSR107]

I just finished it and it was almost exactly what I expected and also so much more than I hoped for. As it was closing out those final few moments, I found myself almost about to cry at the sheer beauty of the thing. Sorry, not a thoughtful comment. Just going to say that I never saw Arthur Fleck as THE Joker despite all of the DC eater eggs.

[@CraftyArts]

Or perhaps the director just made the movie he wanted to make despite demands and expectations a lot of fan boys who forgot the first movie was a drama disguised as a comic book movie not a comic book movie. I haven't seen it yet i know all the plot spoiler details and thats the impression I get, its about joker being an idea like what was played with in the Gothim series, and arkham knight. I just think its ridiculous and rather arrogant for people to think Todd Phillips specifically made a movie to spite some invisible audience of strangers hell never meet in person.

[@Mo11y_Mi11ions]

the only real depth the character has in the source material. . . He's in love with batman, in an incredibly toxic way. This has ceased to be subtext on more than one occasion. He has a "multiple choice" origin story due to being an unreliable narrator. He trial and error-ed his way into his joker venom as a sort of asinine gag about commitment to a bit. He's meant to be a toxic asshole who chews up everything and everyone in his path, often harmless enough gags like the joker fish, other times something like shooting and s******y a*****ting batgirl, leaving her paralyzed. He's meant to be a cartoonishly evil monster you don't sympathize with, even when you see how he got there in works such as "Batman: The Man Who Laughs".

[@oddiocurtiss]

So, the film succeeded in its vision and message. It was meant to be hated and was hated. But judging it as a movie, it was a bad one. I'd have to watch it to know, but I think I would have preferred a great movie that still refuted certain people's misunderstanding of the first--a movie that has fantastic storytelling, wants to be loved, but makes you think about the evils of idolizing monsters.

[@mateocalabrese3546]

so you haven't seen it but still say it was a bad one?

[@oddiocurtiss]

@mateocalabrese3546 I was going by what this video expressed. To me it seemed like the Book & Movie Guy was saying it was bad, but he appreciated the cynicism toward the original. I'm going to watch it and may change my opinion. Right now all I have to go on are reviews and this video.

[@RABartlett]

"So Todd Phillips, tastefully or not...is trying to punish those fans." I think that's the crux of why the reception has not been great, even for people who themselves didn't love the first movie. Phillips is having trouble reconciling that toxic fans are his people. Guy has a resume of edgey humor and dudebro aesthetics . He's just...not equipped to rebuke something that's all he really knows. In a lot of way, it can be compared to Spike Lee's "SHE HATE ME" (I think his most critically panned film) where he seemed to try address the criticsm that his movies were sexist and it just resulted in hist most sexist movie yet. A movie where they turn Harley Quinn, a character who, when done right is...I don't want to say aspirational, but a cathartic for abused women, and turning her into Lady MacBeth True Crime Ho. I feel like it's a movie that says "You're nothing like me. I am not a virgin. I wouldn't let myself get raped in the shower."

[@howkel]

Surprise me but don't do anything I'm not expecting - the "fandome'

[@crazycutz8072]

god analysis

[@your01Aj]

I'm kinda tired of so many movies lately being "about toxic fans", lazy directors are the real problem.

[@hakimi_arm]

Go watch Venom The Last Dance. That's the real definition of lazy directors.

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

It still blows my mind that people idolize Arthur Fleck, and it also blows my mind that so many people thought the first film was good when it was obviously an extended tribute to Scorsese films of the 80s. And not even a good tribute. If you're going to cover a song, do something to make it your own! Still, I'm glad this film exists because the people who idolize this version of the Joker deserve to be humiliated in the most condescending way possible.

[@dibblemcbibble2787]

A better title : "Biting the Hand that Feeds Because Reddit Wanted You To"

[@franciscoortiz6980]

What are you talking about? Last jedi was not hated... it made 1.3 BILLION and was highest grossing movie of that year.

[@Linklex7]

Making money doesn’t make a movie good. It still did far less than episode 7 and is the most hated movie in the entire franchise. To this day, Disney/Lucasfilm still hasn’t recovered from it.

[@franciscoortiz6980]

@Linklex7 you are lost. Sw force awakens has imdb 7.8... while joker 2 has 5.2. Yeah

[@Pomoscorzo]

Sorry but you already lost me. I read and heard so much about The Last Jedi deconstructing Star Wars in the last years that I'm sick of it. It was the first Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi that was actually a fairy tale and had the magical feeling of the classics, and for that I will forever be grateful. I'm sorry for everyone who didn't like it and missed its point. (And I'm by far not alone with this.) The Jedi myth was already deconstructed by the prequels. And most fans loved the Luke Skywalker portrayal in The Book of Boba Fett, where he's alone and has cut all his attachments. That, strangely, is not seen as character assassination. What a hypocrisy.

[@Linklex7]

Yet it’s the most hated movie in the franchise. That Disney has yet to actually recover from. It’s a bad movie.

[@Pomoscorzo]

@Linklex7 I like it and I know a lot of people who like it, too. I'm sorry if you don't but I can't help it. Joker 2 is even better than Joker 1 by the way.