Jonathan Blow: How Mainstream Devs Are Getting It Wrong

[@cellularmitosis2]

Attention sound engineers: when someone is talking, TURN THE BACKGROUND MUSIC DOWN

[@999a0s]

Sound Engineer here. no

[@Nick-lx4fo]

@@999a0s the music is too loud, and I'm not a sound engineer

[@putinstea]

@@999a0s You are a terrible sound engineer - someone who has ears

[@999a0s]

@@Nick-lx4fo hmm. Well, I am a sound engineer, and I have a Cold War era air raid siren installed in my room that I use to wake up every morning. It’s not too loud

[@codecaine]

[@999a0s]

did we really need the dramatic background music for this?

[@dukedunac]

+999a0s Absolutely

[@kksheep375]

Agree

[@kotchi9197]

Music is pretty distracting. I agree.

[@SiisKolkytEuroo]

They just happened to be rehearsing in the same room where they did the interview

[@Nersius]

As an American, without constant music and sound effects I have no idea what I should be feeling. Right now I am looking for my family with whom we got separated in the rain and are perfectly fine, but are hiding away from the rain underneath a stairwell, road, or some other close-yet-tucked-away place.

[@BingtheLizard]

"Respect the player." Amen to that.

[@YourCRTube]

+BingtheLizard "Joy of discovery" How about that :)

[@amazingsparckman]

+BingtheLizard Sort of like the game I'm making right now, I'm making it a bit like that. I use no code so I got more freedom to think about how the game is going to flow.

[@kokobain]

+BingtheLizard "Braid was not designed to be fun." That's not respect. That's delusion.

[@amazingsparckman]

***** unreal engine and clickteam fusion. and some other engines. XD

[@Deathaxle]

Too bad, he didn't practiced what he preached.

[@Bloodbane2099]

IMO the problem with mainstream gaming is the fact all it does is play it safe, and never trys anything new and its become terribly stale now, oh and of course the excessive hand holding

[@MaxCovington543]

I'll agree with the hand holding stuff, but the thing about these major AAA titles is that it can take years to make and millions of dollars go into them. If it flops, they're out a fuckload of money. It's not like movies either where a successful director can make a shit movie and say, "Oh well. Better luck next time." If you're lead design and a game tanks they'll probably be looking for a new designer for the next game so there's a lot riding on it. I wish they'd take more risks and try to innovate more often too, but I can understand why they're afraid to.

[@Beefster09]

MaxCovington543 Perhaps the game and its style is a reflection of their personal confidence (and to another extent, the designer's personality). They are afraid to take risks, and therefore expect the same of their players- to not take risks. The thing is: the game industry isn't for people who just want to make games- it's for those who want to constantly take risks. If playing games should be about risks and rewards, then so should making them.

[@MaxCovington543]

But you also have the problem with the publishers. If the developer is like, "We want to make a game like this and it's gonna cost X amount of money" the publisher's mights say, "Hell no. It's too expensive and we don't know if the consumers are going to take to it." Again I really wish they would take more risks, but you don't see it as much with the big titles these days and at the risk of sounding like a hipster, most of the big developers are in it for the money. That's why we have 8 Assassin's Creed games within a 6 year time frame. That's why there might as well be a "Call of Duty" holiday bc it happens every damn year. That's ok though. Being nearly 30 now I can appreciate the retro style that a lot of indie games have and I'm more than happy that we have smaller teams keeping the creativity alive.

[@Beefster09]

And perhaps the reason why indies can afford to risk it is that their games tend to be smaller and shorter. Less $ in, smaller teams, smaller payout, but less risk overall, giving more room for interesting development choices.

[@MaxCovington543]

Beefster09 Less risk financially. Yes I completely agree and I've still been very impressed with what they can do even if it is a shorter game. It's also good bc these guys can sort of be the guinea pigs. If it worked on a smaller game then it may be able to work on a larger game so the indie scene can also influence and support the bigger titles.

[@MaccaMan08]

Jonathan Blow is such a cool guy, thinks outside the box. Looks at game design from a good perspective. It's inspiring

[@Kniffel101]

+warcalf And also just so happens to create his own programming language for the last 3 years which does SO much more than the "industry-standard" C/C++. ^^

[@papaq3810]

Me when I lie

[@vincentrachaka9435]

'Joy of Discovery', one of the things I explained to the other guy a few weeks. Nowadays everything is put on a silver platter and it takes away the 'I am genius' feeling that comes after understanding the clue given in the game. Totally agree with this guy.

[@Theyungcity23]

This music is way too serious.

[@zakimustafa587]

+Theyungcity23 Anyone know the composer? Or where it's from

[@Avemado]

+Theyungcity23 Also quite too loud.

[@DontTakeCrack]

matches the person speaking. jonathan blow is an overly serious dude lol.

[@Redrobyn9]

i don't think that's really a japanese thing, it's more of just mainstream games in general tbh

[@Jonoridge]

+Trapped Opinions Yeah I think that's the only thing that irks me. This isn't Japanese exclusive, it is AAA mainstream development in general so the villainising of the Japanese games industry is unfair imo. Especially when you have games like Catherine, Monster Hunter and Dark Souls that are coming from there that don't hold your hand.

[@zappandy]

3 years since this video was released, almost a decade dealing with these issues and the mainstream industry unfortunately hasn't changed that much. I will never get tired of watching this once in a while, it's extremely relevant. As usual Jon shows how eloquent and smart he is. Despite our disagreements, Jon's views only enrich the industry!

[@MrLESLO]

***** no disagreements, the man just nails it...has a lot of great videos on game design. Never fails to articulate his views on the cesspool of the industry, how so many developers should be trying new ideas, not generally exploitative, padded out rubbish we get these days to justify full price AAA game prices or micro-transaction free to plays, etc. He is one of a few that's actually worth listening to.

[@BockInAction]

What he said is true, but i'm not quite sure why the focus is here only on the japanese industry. It's a general problem, the only thing that you can watch is, that many japanese games have imported/try to copy the bad western mechanics.

[@perunplague9794]

I miss the days where narrative was explained through gameplay and not the other way around

[@skaruts]

Funny how 2 years later we still see this happening so much. Thief 4 is coming to hold your hand through a thieving "experience" this time around. And everyone will buy this leash, and they will continue to think this is the way to make games.

[@PHeMoX]

Thief 4 should be played at least at the Hard difficulty level with all hints set to Off for the best experience. Anyone who's played a Thief game before probably shouldn't even start their very first Thief 4 game on Normal or Easy with Hints on. I actually think Thief 4 is an awesome title for what it is, even when it's not quite the best sequel to the series when it comes to certain game mechanics they've left out or changed. (For example, the rope arrows were awesome because we could shoot them into ANY wood, not only pre-determined spots the game wants us to. Same goes for the sword. Yes, not all previous Thief games featured a sword, but the first game had an awesome fighting mechanic that worked great. It never made the player feel like a knight, instead of a Thief. So I don't think that 'argument' is really that valid. Fighting enemies with a blackjack out in the open against drawn swords makes far little sense to me. They should have been a bit more courageous there for sure. Also, I actually liked the story a lot. Pretty awesome.

[@PHeMoX]

***** Probably not. Not sure what sparked my rant there hahaha.

[@georgekent8300]

Listen to what he's saying. It's not that games shouldn't be fun, it's that you can't calculate fun. What you can calculate is a player - game relationship that teaches you as you go, and that's what he's saying is the best way to design a game. He wants you to finish the game having learned how to play it by playing it, not by being walked through it. Braid is hard, and Japanese games might be difficult too, but it's a different kind of difficulty. If the game is hard to master or solve, but the player understands what needs to be done, that's good design. If the player has no idea what to do, and has to spend hours running around and doing random stuff until they get it right arbitrarily or look up the answer online, that's bad design. That kind of design might make the game difficult, but it's not fair to the player. Often solution to a problem will be something that doesn't make sense. For example, in a lot of games the player can't progress until they talk to a certain person or walk through a certain door. That doesn't make sense in the real world, so if the player misses that, they're stuck. It's like removing one piece of a puzzle. You'll never finish that puzzle until you look under the couch and it happens to be there, it's not actually hard, it's just frustrating, and appears hard. Braid on the other hand, will toss you onto a screen. You can see almost everything laid out in front of you. Then the new mechanic of the level becomes apparent as you play, the game doesn't have to tell you every scenario you can use it in. You know what you're trying to do, but just not how to do it. That's something a player can work with, and when they figure it out, it has a feeling of success and triumph. You don't get that feeling from looking it up online, you feel like you cheated or like the game cheated you. This is what's so weird about many big name Japanese games - notice I'm talking about BIG NAME games, and not all of them. They hold the player's hand through much of the game's obvious basics, so when you get tired of reading menus and skip through something important, you can get easily stuck. It's the opposite in a game like Dark Souls, where the game teaches you once how to play at the very beginning, and then throws you in. There's a very simple goal, and the information is all laid out on screen, so the difficulty doesn't arise from not knowing what to do, but not being able to do it skillfully enough. That's good design, and that's what John Blow is talking about.

[@christianpetersen163]

Jonathan Blow is not alone with this opinion. There are other respected game designers that are pointing to the concept of "fun" as an obstacle to the art. And I also whole heartetly agree. I've found that the ultimate cause for hand-holding is that designed narratives in modern RPG's are too dominant, leaving no freedom for the player, not even the freedom to fail. If the player fails, that means loading from checkpoint. As a game designer, you don't want to break the players immersion, and loading breaks immersion, so you do whatever it takes to keep the player from failing, and by doing that, you take away the joy of exploration, gravity of choices and activation of survival instinct etc., and you constantly remind the player that they are playing a game. Makes no sense... I don't need a strong designed narrative, just the oveall lines. I am excellent at perceiving and forming a narrative from play-sessions. Secondly, games are too fixated on killing. I want to be able to fail hard, but failing always means player character death, which also breaks immersion. Game devs have no imagination when it comes to failure, it's all "kill or be killed" BS. I want games without confining narratives and they should have challenges that you can fail at without having your character killed. Because then they would fullfill what I really want from a game experience: Play-pretending to be someone else and having an emotional experience while mastering the underlying and invisible game in order to develop the character I am pretending to be and, ultimately, myself.

[@XinBiDe]

I liked his commentary on "fun". It's a very good reflection. Walking Dead isn't fun, it's intense and emotionally engaging. Very true.

[@thecousinbellic]

What I find more striking isn't how much games hold your hand, but how forgiving they are compared to their predecessors. I personally die as often in the recent games than I used to in older ones. It's just that you aren't as heavily penalised if you do, making it easier for me to wrap them up. And that's when I begin to think, "boy, these games used to go on forever, and now they're over before I know it" I guess it's one of those changes you neither embrace nor reject

[@MrSiloterio]

That's why I seriously was been thinking that a medium should branch out from the typical 'video game' terminology. Call it 'interactive art' or 'interactives'. There should certainly spawn a new breed of interactive art that simply exist not ONLY to provide fun but to evoke as well.

[@Swissgar0]

Are you having a stroke?

[@RonWolfHowl]

+ryan hearst I think the blood cells in his brain are going broke.

[@neodos]

+Matt Terio I think the term you are looking for is "genre".

[@MrSiloterio]

it still wouldn't suffice to encapsulate the very nature of these new experiential interactive creations because as long as they're going to be under "games" then people will still perceive them as products meant to provide fun and entertainment; which, they are clearly not.

[@neodos]

Matt Terio I think anything that is interactive and uses 2D or 3D engine to have graphical objects animate and interact with the player qualifies as a game. Not calling your video game, a video game as a developer would be suicide, no one will go look for your creation if its not named a video game. But really, like Blow mentions, there just wasn't games that explored the emotions rather than the mechanical aspect of games, that doesn't mean games that explore emotions shouldn't be called games, its just a different genre. Videogames are a medium.

[@NathanBenedict45]

"I like to respect my players' time." So I'm going to have them stand still for 2 hours waiting for a cloud to collect a secret. Seems fair.

[@DAS_k1ishEe]

Well it's more into figuring out, that the cloud is actually moving. Did you really sit 2 Hours in front of the PC waiting for the cloud to move? Not even jonathan wants you to do this.

[@NathanBenedict45]

What? I don't even understand the meaning of this. Of course I never did that and I know it's not pivotal to completing the game, but you do get a different ending if you can collect all the stars. My point of view is that I should't have to do insanely mundane tasks to see all of what the game I paid for has to offer. Jonathan said a game shouldn't have padding just to virtually extend the length of the game and that part of Braid goes against that mindset, imo.

[@DAS_k1ishEe]

Braid blew my fkin mind, even without the second ending. It was really worth it. I never collected all stars and just watched the videos and I'm totally fine with that. Those stars were intended to be extremely hidden. It is like in Dark Souls, where people still found secrets after months. Once the 1st star was found, a race started to find them all. That level is kinda big. Jonathan had to make a decision how long that cloud needs to travel through the level. Those 2 hours were the right answer. Riddles that hard to solve, only through the community, are epic. The reward was a cought princess, the totally opposite of what Blow intended to portrai with Braid. You can interprete the second ending like this: "Only with the help of others, you can truely overcome your biggest errors." Let's summon up: Those Riddles need to be that hard, for this unique experience. They whould be senseless, if they were not hidden tht deep.

[@NathanBenedict45]

I'm not saying that secret ruins the whole experience, but don't make it sound like he had to do it that way. That part of the game is totally ridiculous. There are other indie games, like Fez for example, that have incredibly cryptic secrets. Many of those were figured out through the community: but even if you don't figure it out yourself, it's still fun to collect them. I've completed Fez 100% and it took me a few days but I'll never throw away two hours of my time to get that stupid star in Braid. No way. And you didn't either. Then why don't you just watch a let's play of the whole game? Why bother buying it if you're not going to get the full experience?

[@foxar9606]

Nathan Fanstooik I kind of understand what he means. You can see that specifically in older games, when you play them, most of them at least sooner or later you arrive at a part where you are stuck. You can't get out of that situation, and back when those games came out, there was no internet to help you. So you were forced to figure things out yourself, and once you do, it makes you feel really smart and gives you a lot of satisfaction, this kind of "lighting up a light bulb" above your head that you can see in cartoons. It's a really satisfying feeling that most modern games certainly lack, and i have not felt that feeling in a long time since i played modern video games.

[@EdwardtheIRISH]

I've said this before there should be a game mode on a lot of games that just turns off tutorial.

[@ShredST]

I wonder what his thoughts are on Dark Souls.

[@polemicize4542]

+Super Yolorenzo 64 Where did he ever say he likes Dark Souls or Demon's Souls?

[@PauLtus_B]

+Super Yolorenzo 64 I'd be surprised if he likes it.

[@darth612]

+Doofus I mean he basically describes what Dark Souls is at 4:16; A game which doesn't hold your hand and doesn't tell you how to do every single thing, it is basically all about discovery. I wouldn't even call the Souls games Japanese games because they are so different in style from the JRPG games. It's really like a western RPG that's made in Japan. Most of From Software games seem very different from the normal Japanese style games; all the King's Field and Souls games, Armored Core and Chromehounds are very different from Gundam or Macross games, more like a mix between Mechwarrior and Japanese mecha. There are also older games like Echo Night which are almost totally removed from the Japanese both in gameplay and style. It seemed more like Myst or Alone in the Dark to me than any Japanese game.

[@PauLtus_B]

Darth612 Outside of the none-handholding I don't see any reason why he'd like it. It's not exactly respecting of the players time for example. There's a whole lot of menu's.

[@polemicize4542]

Super Yolorenzo 64 I typed in "Phil Fish Jonathan Blow GDC 2012" and found nothing. Only an interview of Phil Fish being interviewed without Jonathan Blow. Are you making this up?

[@rqwb-]

hey im a Japanese and now ive listened. Braid was good.

[@synthoelectro]

People like this become the next level of Jobs. It's harder than you realize to find people who raise the bar.

[@nickigna]

He's very intelligent.

[@juliankandlhofer7553]

I'd like us all to pay attention that the player in the Counterstrike footage did not hit a single enemy.

[@echafaud]

whts with the heart breaking music , who died?

[@StephNuggs]

The gaming industry

[@bryanc7094]

Svahn sadly

[@KevinDrongowskiSmart]

I don't like that they used footage of a Skyward Sword boss where I legitimately had no clue what to do on while he's talking about how Japanese games hold your hand. A far better example would probably be the 30 hour tutorial that was Final Fantasy 13.

[@A-Duck]

I disagree 100 percent about the Japanese/western developer philosophy statements he made. It's the complete opposite, Japanese games are often the only games I play these days that aren't riddled with hand holdy nonsense. It's western (modern) games that are built for the lowest common denominator, not Japanese. I mean, just look at Skyrim versus Dark Souls for a good representation of the current state of either industry. Japan has been leading the way for years in terms of treating gamers like thinking human beings, we're only just *now* starting to catch up.

[@chriskerley1508]

I agree with him here. Nothing beats the thrill of battling a problem with no help, then suddenly getting it. I was reading Don Normans book called Design of Everyday Things, and he also notes the exceptions to certain design principles in games. I think a good approach would be to use constraints rather than signifiers to help the player discover affordances.

[@borgestheborg]

Someone get this man Dark Souls, and fast!

[@guitarkid2184]

Sir Pandalot He mentioned that at the Indie game the movie panel when he initially said this

[@DAS_k1ishEe]

He tried Demon's Souls for a few hours, it didn't grab him. So sad :)

[@CageyVideos]

Does anyone know where to find the music near the end of this video?

[@ELFanatic]

Props to this guy, all I see in this thread is constructive discussions and I believe that was his end goal. Well done Mr. Blow, well done.

[@coAdjointTom]

What he's saying about Japanese games is the reason I don't play games much any more. Game designers take note, gamers aren't idiots.

[@avaw99999]

The witness does, however, waste the players time. Many animations for moving platforms (in the tetris section especially) are painfully long, as in over a minute. The walking speed is also incredibly slow. Another example is the videos in the windmill. Multiple are over a half hour, and one is even an hour. During the hour-long one, you have to sit through the whole thing if you want to unlock a secret line.

[@HKBoba]

what music was used during this? so good

[@claytonmoulder2152]

Who came here to see Arin's video?

[@Hazardous]

What is the first piano song in the background called? =)

[@Kunosachiaka]

Found it hard to take him seriously ever since he mentioned games aren't supposed to be "fun". It seemed like some sort of confusing topic for him, but he could've easily replaced "fun" with "enjoyable" and his problem would've been solved. Also, he states he has problems with the way companies like EA or Activision work, but say the Japanese games are the ones that treat the players like idiots and implies EA and Activision games don't do this, while it's the exact opposite. The Western games are the ones that hold your hand throughout the entire game, out of fear that their consumers will run away if their hand isn't held, and the fear is a reality while other games will hold their hand so if this game is mean to them, they'll go off to that game instead. I honestly can't think of any examples of any modern Japanese games doing this except for one, Skyward Sword, which is the only example shown in this video. The issue does exist, but is also not as bad. When Fi pops up to repeat information to you, you can just skip the text by pressing A. When it asks you to use Dowsing, if you don't want to, you just open and close it quickly and find whatever you're looking for on your own. It's an issue undeniably, but a minor inconvenience at most. Also, the game is directed at children, meant to be played by all ages, so I find it ok that these things are in the game for the lesser experienced to use if they need it while the more experienced players can skip them if they want to try on their own. For Western games however, I can list an insurmountable amount of games where your hand is unnecessarily held throughout the game and there are no means to avoiding or skipping it. That, or the games are just so easy hand-holding isn't required because you will never be in danger so long as you use common sense. This is made all the more worse that most Western games are directed towards mature audiences, and aren't intended for little kids to play at all, yet have the difficulty level lower than games meant to be played by anyone. I personally find so very little fun in modern games, and I believe it's because Western games have flooded the console market and are heavily overshadowing Japanese console games nowadays. I get enjoyment out of very few modern day Western games, and the few modern day Japanese games I can actually find are the only modern games I can enjoy because they actually provoke thought from me. While Johnathan Blow makes a good point on the outside that games shouldn't hold hands and should instigate brain function (paraphrased), he's misguided on where the criminals actually lie who are causing this issue to begin with. I'd actually like to see what he would say in response to what I have to say, but alas, this is the way of the internet.

[@avisian8063]

Enjoyable and fun aren't the same thing and aren't interchangeable. I can enjoy tapping a rhythm out on my legs, but I wouldn't say it was fun. The distinction is a hotly debated topic in game design spheres because if you believe "a good game must be fun", but cannot qualify what you mean by "fun" then you cannot quantify your success or create systems or processes that result in improved game designs. What JB is saying is that this idea of "fun" is possibly less relevant than other ideas and that a players enjoyment isn't what you should necessarily aim for. That it will, hopefully, be a biproduct of the striving for other goals. His goal is to respect and engage the intellect of his user and from that fun/enjoyment/engagement emerges. It is a waste product and not the goal. If you had been in the games industry over the last 10 years and heard the internal conversations about "fun" you would better understand some of the gravity of what he is saying. That games don't NEED to be fun is a pretty radical concept. As for the Japanese thing I personally have not played a single japanese game that respected my intellect. I have played plenty of western ones that do.

[@Kunosachiaka]

That's not what he said at all. He strictly said "Games aren't supposed to be fun", which isn't true at all. That's the sole reason games exist, is to have fun with them. Saying you need to make games that challenge the mind to have fun instead of just making games fun isn't how it works, because that doesn't mean anything. Thought-provoking mental stimulation is one way games can be fun, and that's a way of how you make your game fun, one that I'm particularly fond of. Saying "they're supposed to do that instead of be fun" doesn't work because you aren't explaining how fun is achieved the second way, just generalizing the word in a way that doesn't make sense. Games aren't supposed to be some sort of mental training or a chore, they're supposed to be fun, anything else is what make up the biproducts. Enjoyable and fun aren't interchangeable, enjoyable is just a broader word that also includes fun. For example, soothing music isn't fun, it's enjoyable, so you could place it into your game to make the game more enjoyable. The game itself, if you make it right, is fun, which means the game is fun but also "enjoyable", because fun is one form of enjoyment. Someone else mentioned "entertaining" as a substitute, and that would work as well. I was suggesting him to use "enjoyable" instead of "fun" because he was having a hard time defining or understanding what fun is, and this is a broader term that is easier to use. I think we should just get Spongebob down here to show him the ropes. When you said you haven't played a single Japanese game that respected your intelligence, I come to the conclusion that either you've at most played only a handful of Japanese games, or didn't understand the intricacies of them. Both of which I've seen happen plenty of times before.

[@automap]

***** He said his game, Braid, is not supposed to be fun. He did not say games in general aren't supposed to be fun.

[@Kunosachiaka]

automap He meant games in general, not just his own. He wouldn't be criticizing other games if he was only specifically talking about his own.

[@Optimus6128]

I didn't have much fun with Braid the first time I played, but I was in a hurry to have a fast look at it. I gave it another try after I watched one of his talks on evil casual mobile games with which I very much agreed. I still didn't have much fun but I tried to move on with some levels but didn't have the patience to collect all the puzzles. One reason was the way the character jumps and slides is hard to time and position a jump to me. This is important to me, for example Spelunky which is a very annoyingly hard game has me addicted, because the controls are spot on, I can calculate where I want to jump and 90% I am there. Also I was all the time move time back, move time forward, it became kinda of a repeating chore. I got some of the puzzles. There are many clever ideas. Maybe I'll finish it oneday just to discover what other ideas there are. I respect that he tried to do his own thing and not something that will appeal to every gamer. I am also interested to his own new upcoming adventure game, just because I want to see how his idea of designing adventures is. I very much agree with what he said here. Although I don't know if it came from Japanese games. I thought this simplification of games was very much a phenomenon of the whole modern industry, maybe since the lastgen console era and maybe because games became mainstream. A lot of "mash the buttons, follow the totally linear path, QTEs" games just to watch cinematic and glorious graphics. I don't know if this trend came from japanese games. I haven't checked many of them, but only know the nintendo classics, mario, zelda, now those have some challenge, mario gives you too much lives but you have to control your character precisely else fall in some hole, zelda always makes me not know what to do next somewhere in the middle of the game. When I think of simplication, I think of western games, military FPS, 3d beat em ups like God of War, story games like Heavy Rain. I don't have Japanese games in my mind, except there are some others besides Nintendo stuff that overdo it. But remember Dark Souls from a Japanese company :P I sincerely prefer to be lost in Doom-esque labyrinths or stare at the 2d background of a classic adventure wondering what to do next, rather than pushing buttons to see the graphics. I very much like this guy, yes people say he is pretentious like some other recent indie devs, but I like what he has to say. I am gonna watch his other talks and maybe see the Indie the Movie.

[@celix4n]

I get what Jonathan is saying about discovery and I value it greatly too, but I disagree on the Japanese games holding-Your-hand-part. If anything I find it just the opposite, besides a short tuturial in the beginning to give You some basics, You`re pretty much on Your own in figuring out mechanics and deeper gameplay. Hell in Dark Souls for instance they barely even bother with teaching You anything. Western games are (for me at least) most of the time where most of everything is explained away with little left to figure out Yourself, they feel less patient and have more of an emphesis on action and immediate gratification. Guess the term: "difficulty: Asian" has to come from somewhere.

[@ShawnBird]

Exactly. I think he probably had several specific studios or games in mind when he said that and just labeled it as 'japanese games' probably to avoid sounding like he was smearing anyone.

[@LemmingAttack]

Shawn Bird I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was referring to something that rhymes with "blin-den-toe"

[@Alianger]

Yeah, I remember being that more of an issue with western games around the time of GBA, having signs saying what button to jump etc. no reason to shit on japan specifically there.

[@unstoppableExodia]

agreed and if you go back to the nineties and before the one thing you could definitely not accuse japanese game devs of doing was hand holding. games that had hidden depth required the player to find it thru playing the game more than once.

[@Fauxmar]

Well the Japanese game you mentioned is one he specifically singles out as being an anomaly during the panel he was referencing. How about mention the Western games that hold your hand with terribly designed instruction (i.e. skyward sword).

[@natteesetobol582]

I see what he is saying about Modern Japanese games. Back in my days (yes I'm old) Japanese games like Mario, Zelda didn't have these hand holding techniques. You just went right into the games head first and figure out what to do. I never really notice and was blown away when he said that those games that tell you what to do take away the discovery of the game. It's kind of true.

[@franmadaraki8688]

It's funny to see some western devs say Japanese games are too hand holdy, but then whenever you hear from a major review site crying about a game being too hard, it's a Japanese game. Not to mention the western side of the industry is the worst it's ever been, while Japanese haven't fallen nearly as much. Legitimately the only western dev I can think off right now that I would say was good is CD Projekt/Valve. I also think it's sort of sad when someone who apprantly made "Indie Platformer #84" has any sort of...right as a developer to say shit to any other developer. It's really like the captain for a backyard football team talking to a professional NFL player about how he should run his team.

[@VortigonMusic]

Devs aren't reviewing games on slowtaku though.

[@franmadaraki8688]

Not my point, do you hear of any reviewers saying western games are too hard, or just Japanese games?

[@VortigonMusic]

Fran Madaraki I've read complaints about both Dustforce and IWBTG as indie titles and for AAA titles, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., The Witcher and DotA 2 were both also considered to be too hard on some websites. Granted, you're right about the western industry being a shit, what with all the focus on easier cinematic experiences.

[@theodoredoumic5569]

Have you played Braid before saying that? Because the way you speak about him and his game proves that you don't. And what he says only include his point of view. In the end, he says that a lot a western games sucks, a lot of japenese too. Only few deserve some attention. Don't you agree with that?

[@alexxv.1519]

I humbly disagree. I believe that anyone should be able to criticize on anything as long as his criticism is constructive.. Thinking that only acclaimed or professionals should be the only ones that their opinion matters seems sad and pessimistic.

[@Ch3k0v]

Thanks for saying this. Somebody had to, although I believe that games should be taught partly through tutorial, but mostly through gameplay. There needs to be more of a balance between the two. Too much of one or the other is not a good idea.

[@fartloudYT]

i disagree with certain part of his talk. he keeps repeating that its japanese game culture that holds your hand, but... wait - western culture does that too. modern corridor shooters for example. not to mention how many games have filler content.

[@Bahcorp]

Jonathan Blow really hit the point, when referring to the big and industrial companies that really are eliminating the sense of discovery, most of the AAA titles we have are on the rails very guided, and players repeat and repeat until get bored.

[@Lutzburg]

This music really detracted from an otherwise great monologue.

[@AdrianoMadDog]

What are the titles os the games that were presented in the video? I know just few: Limbo, Braid, Heavy Rain, CS.

[@cecilwhinter]

I have to Say that I really loved every aspects this Man said & put on the table of Culture, Movies & Games ..& the consequences of those aspects that affect Us into everyday of our lives, because it really relate to me deeply in the way that I too think like he think about Culture, Movies & Games.

[@crowbarska]

@SubstanceTheGamer I think the title suggests that he is pointing out a specific aspect of mainstream games that is commonly done in a way that could be better. He's not saying "mainstream games are just bad", he's saying "mainstream games do this particular thing wrong".

[@WuschelofDespair]

I love Blow's games and I love Japanese games. The thing that he describes sounds nowhere typical for Japanese games. Western games do that, too. And a lot of Japanese games don't. So I don't see that point really.

[@WuschelofDespair]

+Dennis Estebal he actually has, at least dark souls

[@gabrielibowen1]

Even though this is an old comment, I just had to mention FF13. The first disk (xbox) was basically 10 hours of exactly what he was talking about. I don't think MGS5 did this though. So it's not all Japanese games, maybe just JRPGs. They've definitely decreased in difficulty lately.

[@WuschelofDespair]

Gabriel Bowen I agree with you dude but the question is, do they have to? I mean not every game wants to be like Braid, the Witness, Dark Souls, FEZ and the like. Some games just want to tell stories, with great feelings, scenery and music. They don't have to be difficult. Take Life is Strange for example, that game is nowhere difficult or even challenging. It's totally taking the player by the hand. But it's one of the best games I played in the recent time. It tells great story and is super entertaining.

[@gabrielibowen1]

It's kinda hard to put into words, but I don't think holding the player's hand necessarily means difficulty. I think we all can agree that the last of us is a great example. I think the main reason why that game was so good was because it blended everything together in a well paced narrative. character development, story, gameplay mechanics, and etc... Similar to MGS5, these games are great at unraveling their content throughout the game.

[@gabrielibowen1]

but to answer your question, you're right. It's not necessary for every game. I haven't play LIS, but I've played the walking dead, and that's still an excellent game. But when a game can do that and deliver that sense of discovery, it's amazing. Then again, I have to think that maybe some games do this because they know that some people don't play a lot of games. what's hand holding to me might be necessary for someone else. Maybe games should have a short questionnaire before they start. are you good at games? Lol

[@FratFerno]

It's strange how 6:30 finally had an example of a game repetitively telling you what to do, despite you knowing full well how to do it. The other Skyward Sword clips were like clips from the older games, just having the dungeons shown to you so that you can explore and solve. The clips don't even show Fi, who warns of obvious bosses and tells you where to go after you recall how far you are in the game.

[@EdwardtheIRISH]

I think he would like dark souls.

[@SeekerLancer]

Dark Souls is interesting because Hidetaki Miyazaki wasn't a gamer before coming to From Software so he designed video games with an outsiders perspective. People often act like they're hardcore games made for hardcore gamers but they're not, they're just designed in a way that's foreign to people and seem harder than they actually are.

[@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr]

@@SeekerLancer Huh, that's actually really interesting. Seems like developers with perspectives that differ from the mainstream (like Blow or Miyazaki) tend to make the most interesting games.

[@TheSorrel]

Have you even played Skyward Sword? Or the original? Blow calls cracks in walls you can blow up "holding the players Hand". But this is not holding Hands at all, that is establishing the games rules. That is actually good game design. Skyward Sword does nothing less than establishing rules and then lets you figure out what you need to do next. The original expected from you to blow up every single rock in the game world to find something. Thats not an achievement, thats just trial and error.

[@MauriceChavez353]

Who put that fucking music in.... WTF

[@johnberkley6942]

I think the world is divided into people who instantly notice music and those who don't. People who don't notice it are like, "what's the problem?" Well, in this instance, if music must be added let's have it way down low so even people who notice music don't notice it. And pick something that isn't insistent. Strings played in this almost plaintive manner are begging to be noticed. Listen! Listen! Listen! All the while Mr Blow is trying to get his word in edgewise. I blame muzak. Like an antibiotic that quickly induced resistance, Muzak quickly killed the idea of music as something you listen to. Since the Muzak era, the world has become an ever-noisier place. It's no wonder music has come to be applied like a broad-spectrum antibiotic.

[@THEKAZA117]

I know right I'm not playing Bioshock xD

[@jstriedinger]

Music.....I NEED the music used in this video. Specially that one that starts at 4:02 !

[@HSAdestroy]

the problem with generalising Japanese games... I guess he didnt play Demons Souls, because its a game that basically demonstrates everything he said he believes in game design to be good or worth persuing. I wonder if he played Dark Souls.

[@CandleLightDoesThings]

He said a majority of Japanese games not all

[@marcusn254]

He has mentioned elsewhere that there are exceptions, like Dark Souls.

[@thatbennyguy]

I didn't realise until you said that, the song is amazing. It really elevates this interview, too.

[@arturk9181]

music too loud!!! and too serious!!!

[@BrunsValters]

Does anyone recognizes the music in the background? Suunds very nice, would like to find it :)

[@FutureShock9]

"I want to respect my players' time" You remember that time in Braid when you sit for 2 hours while a cloud inches across the level?

[@IllusionSector]

Could someone kindly provide the title of the game show @ 0:44 and again @ 1:16 with the silhouette of the kid running away from a giant spider, please. Thanks.

[@giobat8994]

It's been 10 years since you wrote this comment but the game is Limbo

[@IllusionSector]

@@giobat8994 Yeah, I had long since found that out, but I still appreciate the reply. Thank you.

[@liamtaylor2000]

Interesting thoughts, your game reflects Boolean approach to video game design but this isn't for everyone however, and the proof is to simply appreciate the way games moved away from this type of game style into arithmetical games. I have played braid and for me the only thing that makes it different from other games is that the tutorials are missing, just the same as The forest, Dayz, Minecraft or Rust. All this really does is slow down the speed at which people learn the mechanics its not revolutionary. Today the majority of gamers like myself don't always want to play a game whereby sitting an IQ logic test through 100% of the game play mechanics is the only agenda. Some people enjoy engaging with games for other reasons, creative collaboration (Minecraft), competitively (Sc2) or even just to unwind and relax (Flow). I think its a little naive to presume that the hand 'holding approach' is any better or worse because its about purpose, the success of interactivity comes from how well it is designed, relative to the ethos of the game and the audience you are appealing to. Call of duty or counterstrike as you mention are designed correctly for the audience and purpose of the interactivity. People don't want to have to work out a puzzle in order to reload their weapons, they want simplicity. You are welcome to have your own opinion, of what works for you in terms of game design and audience, but to presume that your own game Braid is any better or more original than older types of Boolean logic games is simply arrogance and a mistake.

[@Gilpow]

It's not "slowing down the speed at which people learn the mechanics", it's "letting the player discovering the mechanics by themselves". Of course, it doesn't make you smarter, but it's a good sensation for your brain (----->yourself). The hand holding approach makes me feel like I don't need to turn on my brain so it bores me to death.

[@BuzzKirill3D]

There IS a tutorial in Braid. It's short, but it's there, at the first stage in the game, in the form of tips written on the stage "background". But if you meant you needed a tutorial to know to use arrow keys for movement, I... I don't know what to say.

[@Gilpow]

Nebuchadnezzaurus I don't think that one is a tutorial, because it doesn't tell you that you have to solve riddles and how to do it. It's not like "go there, do that, grab the key, open the door... you've made it!" XD I think it's just to explain the controls

[@BuzzKirill3D]

Gilpow well, as the others said, part of the fun is exploring the game yourself. I mean how far do you want the tutorial to go? It might as well explain how to solve the riddles and just tell you what the ending is, so you don't actually have to play the game.

[@Gilpow]

I just want the controls explained, I don't want the game to constantly tell me what to do. Here's a couple of examples of what I DON't want: I HATE quest markers and I hate when the game levels with you like in Skyrim and Oblivion (though I like these games themselves, but they had way more potential), making it almost impossible to put yourself in trouble while exploring the world (so, it's always hand holding) - you don't feel like you actually have to improve yourself. I've seen a friend of mine playing Assassin's Creed and, not only you have quest markers, but the game CONSTANTLY tell you what to do! Like "jump", "press X", "press O", ohhh myyy god!

[@chrism93lol]

Anyone know what unnamed games are shown in this video? Would love to know

[@UnstableEquilibrium]

Why are they showing Zelda gameplay for this? It doesn't hold your hand or remove your sense of discovery. Even Mario games wouldn't fit these descriptions. They should have shown Final Fantasy XIII gameplay.

[@UnstableEquilibrium]

***** Still, Final Hallway 13 would have been a better example.

[@Irockman1]

+Davis Jensen Skyward Sword is the epitome of handholding: the annoying companion who nags you when your health is low (as if the beeping and flashing hearts weren't enough), the redundant descriptions of insignificant items you've already collected, the linear nature of the game relative to other games in the series, the stones that outright tell you the solutions to puzzles. You'd have a point if they were showing the original The Legend of Zelda, which definitely didn't coddle the player, but Skyward Sword was a valid game to show during that topic.

[@UnstableEquilibrium]

***** Your description could also fit Ocarina of Time (not perfectly though). It too has an annoying companion, a very linear story (good luck doing dungeons out of order), and *optional* puzzle-solving stones (I know that's only in the 3DS remake, but it's better than the original). And it's not like every Zelda doesn't have its fair share of secrets for the player to discover. The fact that Skyward Sword has dungeons is enough to keep it from holding your hand. Disclamer: I've never actually played Skyward Sword. I'm just assuming that the stones that you are refering to are indeed optional and that you hyperbolized how much information it gives the player. I do not intend to invalidate your feelings toward the game's flaws however. You feel that these stones give too much information, and that's fine by me.

[@ChrisLoos1]

+Cory Martin My least favorite game in the franchise for exactly that reason. I wish I had just watched it on KZbin.

[@RonWolfHowl]

Have you even played a single Mario game in the last five years!? Go buy any Mario platformer released for a console with “Wii” or “DS” in its name and tell me that’s the same gameplay that existed back in the days of the N64, the GBA, and the GameCube. Even the Galaxy series has grown bloated with coins, hints, power-ups, and extra lives.

[@AntiGravityC9]

I need to know the song names, does anyone know? (last one seems to be Paul Mottram - Equilibrium)

[@DarkwingD]

Who the fuck was playing that b-roll of CSGO? That was awful!

[@geico105]

dunkey

[@vigilantslacker6039]

This was when Counter Strike: Global Offensive was brand new, and everyone, even the old pros were getting used to the game. The b-rolls were no doubt from a brand new player, probably a fucking ign review or something lol.

[@technogaming998]

Honestly this is the most amazing thing I've ever heard in Gamedev.

[@Masomatic2000]

who else came here from game grumps?

[@redacted3498]

What does Game Grumps have to do with this video?

[@grandiosereject5083]

+Ethan Duman the game grumps talked about this video because "grump" had a clip from one of his videos in this.

[@grandiosereject5083]

Im not really sure I haven't found it in this vid or anywhere else 😐

[@Masomatic2000]

it was a mario party 2 vid not sure which one

[@Masomatic2000]

im not sure

[@smashinghappydays]

Game at 3:40??

[@TheEgilll4]

+smashinghappydays Heavy rain

I heard it's more like a tooth brushing simulator though.

[@shtiken]

Right! I would rather play popular awesome western games that respect and challenge the player, like Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed. I mean, who wants trash like Mario, Souls, Persona...etc... These games don't even have awesome objective markers.

[@voidlt]

+shtik ICO, Shadow of the Colossus..

[@shtiken]

Void LT Trash games. In ICO the girl literally holds your hand. Oh, and both games don't have awesome objective markers! These 2 games are some of the "worst" ever made, even an average western game like The Amazing Spider-Man 2 beats them in creativity and design.

[@voidlt]

the funny thing is that Braid the game that made him famous in the first place has Mario all over it (princess+castles)

[@shtiken]

Void LT Dammit man, you know I had to break out my PS3 and replay ICO and Shadow of the Colossus after reading that previous comment you made, seriously I did. Thanks!

[@voidlt]

shtik you're more than welcome lol

[@SfixtoKouradi]

what's that game with the motorcycle jumping from ramps? i think he mentioned it but i couldn't scribble out the words.

[@Drummer14534]

You really need to stop generalizing Jonathan. Japanese games hold your hand? Ever play Dark Souls? Monster Hunter? Soul Sacrifice? Play any of the original Devil May Cry games on the higher difficulties. Good Job you made a successful game. That doesn't mean you just start saying shit that isn't true.

[@jordanseaward4499]

In other interviews where he talks about Japanese games he says except for darks souls, because he's not talking about those games.

[@Drummer14534]

***** Even that is not really correct. In fact past a tutorial there aren't many Japanese game that hold you had the whole way through. Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of bad Japanese games (The same goes for western) but to say that there is a majority of Japanese games that hold your hand to the point of avoiding most of them all together is not true.

[@Drummer14534]

San Tiago He goes on to talk about the industry as a whole. In fact he works against himself. Like you posted he says "I play" But then uses that as his standard for talking about the industry as a whole. And to be honest I understand his whole "Enjoyment of discovery" stand point I really do. That is why I love a game like Dark Souls but at the same time that idea can be a lot of bullshit. Sometime I don't want to turn on my console and get my brain ready for a chore. Sometimes it's fun to just mindlessly play a game. No matter how much the industry grows and how much we want to make games have more meaning to them they are still just games. There is nothing wrong with one holding our hand as long as there is still fun to be had.

[@forteon8k]

Drummer14534 Well said

[@achelon5076]

I think you're misunderstanding what he was trying to communicate: His hand-holding comment wasn't a reference to Japanese game's difficulty, it was a comment towards their in-depthness of explaining things versus leaving things ambigious.

[@jstriedinger]

can someone tell me the two songs in this video PLEASE! I know the last one is Equilibirum from Paul Mottram but, what about the first ? thanks :)

[@R3fug333]

Hand holding? Braid is easy as fuck. Hand holding my ass.

[@Graszczur]

I don't think his point was difficulty level

[@liampendergast8670]

Braid is such an odd duck of a game. It's so different from stranded game design. Compare any other puzzle platformer to Braid. The way it plays, the way it presents it's story. It's interesting to say the least.

[@SadalDay]

The Witness may be a bit harder :0

[@ChesterAsucka]

Um... hand holding is when the game practically plays for you as he explained that Japanese games often do when they interrupt you on which buttons to press... while you are trying to do it. I didn't think Braid was that difficult either but it never tells you what you're supposed to do through obvious text. So yes, there is no hand holding in Braid.

[@MichaelPohoreski]

*Scripted* Games vs *Thinking* Games is one way to categorize modern AAA game design vs Indie design. I call it the "_Gopher_ _Syndrome_" in RPGs such as WoW, Defiance, etc. "Go fetch _ for me." Classics such as Limbo, World of Goo, Trine *reward* the gamer for thinking!

[@VortigonMusic]

Those are classics now?

[@KevinBoykin]

Nice perspective you've provided there. I don't want to use the word "fun" so I'll say "entertaining" instead. I find that Scripted games can be extremely entertaining for the player (The Last of Us, The Stanley Parable, Bioshock) as well as Thinking games (Braid, Fez, Amnesia: The Dark Descent). One thing that I find interesting, is how one person will find a game entertaining and another person might find it to be the most appalling experience they've ever had. I believe the root of this phenomenon stems from a user's expectations when coming into the game. If you sat a user down in front of a computer with League of Legends pulled up, and told him/her it was supposed to be a fun, relaxing experience, then they would probably think the game was terrible right off the bat. But if you told them it had a competitive, grueling, challenging yet rewarding experience, then they would feel much different about it after they got up from the chair. One example of this that comes to me, is the beginning of Skyrim. A friend of mine was so appalled by the first 15 minutes of the game, he vowed he would never play the game ever again. A year later though, he finds himself playing the game again and loving it... Why? What happened within the span of a year? My conclusion was that his expectations of the game gradually changed from his preconceptions from before it was officially released, into the real conceptions of what it actually is and has to offer.

[@VortigonMusic]

Kevin Boykin I feel that we should really have a different definition when it comes to games that try to be competitive, like sports and games that are just about the experience like the games you mentioned in the second paragraph. This way we won't have to deal with bullshit like people sitting down for Street Fighter and saying it's too hard or the reverse where visual novels are thrown into the trash for not being games. Personally I don't like games that put cinematography and story first and gameplay later. I think they are using the wrong medium for what they are trying to convey. Even so these games are highly popular so there is a place for this next to more old school games. It's just that the concepts of these types of games are so vastly different from each other that it's hard to lump them together and scale them off of each other like most gaming websites do. Apples and Oranges. Also, your friend probably found out the game has mode and downloaded all the waifu mods for skyrim.

[@MichaelPohoreski]

Kevin Boykin Scripted games definitely can be fun. "Dishonored" is a perfect example of excellent scripted events -- fantastic execution. The problem with scripted games is that they tend to be shoe-horn the player into solving the problem "one" way -- the way the designer intended. Tomb Raider 2013 and Resident Evil 5 are extremely bad with their boss fights. They become a grind fest until you can pull over the perfect button mashing combos. The difference with traditional button mashers such as the excellent Soul Caliber or Street Fighter is that a player has _choices_ -- the game _also_ involves higher level strategy in addition to low level tactics.

[@VortigonMusic]

Michael Pohoreski I can't believe you just called fighting games "button mashers".

[@Furzkampfbomber]

1.) This stupid sentimental background music ist incredibly annoying. 2.) I don´t know why JB keeps harping on about the word "fun" and acts as if he just discovered as the first person ever how games should work. The word that I would use to describe a good game is "entertaining". A game is supposed to entertain me and if it can achieve that, no matter how, it is a good game. To me Borderlands 2 is a fun game in true sense of this word, because I play it with friends, we do silly things, have some ridiculous adventures and talk a lot of nonsense and feel splendidly entertained. "SpecOp: The Line" was no fun at all - most of the time it gave me this gritty and gut-wrenching feeling, but it made me going on, because I just had to know what would happen next. In other words - I was entertained. 3.) I really don´t know what kind of problem JB has with japanese games. Sure, I can´t talk about Nintendo games, since they were never my cup of tea, but there are so many other japanese games that gave me a hard time, because they were so unforgiving, sometimes even to the point of being brutal. JBs claim that japanes games being too "nice" must be a cultural thing, which makes me believe he knows even less about japanese culture than I do. In my experience over the course of the last decade the games that became more and more "soft" and unchallenging were big western productions. Just look at many modern shooters or RPGs that just WONT stop popping up messages like "Press button A to open door", "Press R to reload" or "Press E to use XYZ". Look at games like MW that are herding you through tubelike level after tubelike level, without even the slightest chance to go left or right. In Germany many people like a genre which does not even have an english name. I am talking about "Aufbaustrategiespiele", which I would translate with "build-up strategy games". This genre is very successful in Germany, but really under-represented in the U.S. for instance. Gamers there don´t like those games very much because they feel they are too complicated and not that easy accessible. So claiming that japanese games are governing the player too much just seems not fair. 4.) Many indie games I´ve played over the course of the last years are not that much "fun" JB claims they are or are respecting the player the way he describes it. Sure, they are not easy or governing either, but instead many of them are plain and simple mean. So many indie games are just bullet hell games or the "non-shooter" equivalent, that are neither fun, nor entertaining and turn into a chore quickly. This is just my very own and subjective opinion, but as I see it JBs view on the gaming industry and the state of todays games is a bit lopsided.

[@rambammer2000]

Yeah it's annoying. This guy makes one succesful puzzle game and for some reason thinks he knows what's best for the games industry. If he makes another two or three succesful games, maybe I'll start listening to him.

[@OscarMaris]

rambammer2000 He's not claiming to know what is best for the games industry. He is just describing his idea of a good game. What he likes.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

OscarMaris Unfortunately the way he is doing this successfully creates the impression he believes that everyone else should have the same opinion he does.

[@Julietmindset]

Aufbaustrategiespiele totally have an english name, btw. They're city-builders. And, while their popularity may be waning in the U.S., it totally started in the U.S and has a few major games that could be considered members of that genre. I'm thinking, specifically, Sim-City and Civilization. Age of Empires/Mythology/ect.

[@timharbourmusic]

To anyone who ever complains on a KZbin video and has a a pile of genius insight in to what this guy is saying or doing wrong, I only ever have one question. Can I please see your video game? Since you have so many lofty ideas your own work should really encompass all these ideals and from what I can tell... should be even better than Braid. Link it, we can all have an opinion too.

[@icenode]

What was the game with the tower of blocks and the character climbing them?

[@Bananapielord]

Catherine

[@jonathanjankowski]

Why japanese? makes no sense did this guy even play a souls game or street fighter? he must be thinking about nintendo

+SESHJonathan When you say Street Fighter, are you talking of the game that hasn't changed in 20 years ?

Using your logic Justin Bieber would be good because a lot of people are listening to his music. It checks out though since you sound like a 13 year old girl.

I know you can do better than that. Even an insecure 13yo fanboy should know more than one insult.

[@PurushNahiMahaPurush]

+SESHJonathan LOL speaking of Street Fighter, how are you enjoying the broken mess that is SFV with its pathetic character rosters? There are a reason why Japanese games are irrelevant to the majority of gamers around the world (with the exception of a very handful of franchises). The reason is Japanese disconnect from what the player wants and what made their games appealing to so many people around the world. That coupled with greedy money grabbing tactics that will put even EA to shame. Also, Dark Souls too has a mileage you know. There are already many games out there that are kinda same-ey from From Software. Give it one or two sequels more and people will get bored of it unless you put out a sequel every 4-5 years. In the past 6 years, From Software has released 4 games (with 5th on its way this year) that are from the Souls series. That is literally all of their output in the past 5-6 years. Pretty sure at some point people will get tired like they have now become tired of Nintendo franchises. Its a classical Japanese "Don't rock the boat" mentality.

[@antiHUMANDesigns]

It's not really true about the Zelda games, either. So it's not automatically true for nintendo.

[@Fangornmmc]

He's not even that arrogant really, he is just very upfront and honest with his opinions. He even said that he could try to be liked more, but that he'd rather just voice his opinion instead of sugarcoating what he really thinks (I am paraphrasing, of course). Watch some of his lectures online, he provides very sound and thoroughly thought-out reasons for all the points he made here.

[@bigscheesy4982]

Just say engaging, jesus christ people have used that word before. Games aren't just getting warm to the concept of emotional response, they've been doing that for a long time, and of course games are going to explore mechanics and interaction, thats something pretty unique to games as a medium. I get what hes going for but his points fall flat when he acts like hes presenting a new or forgotten concept.

[@animaterob]

The concepts were new 10 years ago.

[@bigscheesy4982]

@@animaterob majoras mask, chrono trigger, and silent hill 2 came out over ten years before this. I was saying Jonathan feels the need to alter the use of fun because for some reason he didn't catch on to the fact when people say fun they don't mean constant literal fun, engaging is implied.

[@ZorakTheGreat]

What's that game with the guy climbing the blocks?

[@SpeedfreakUK]

It's fascinating how Western games are now chock-full of shallow, handholdy bullshit while ramming sophomoric narratives in your face while Japanese games are now the best place to get a challenging, deep experience with more modest, honest stories.

[@edhahaz]

Yeah there is one japanese company doing good games = all japanese games

[@Alianger]

What I find interesting about this is that for me as mostly a retro gamer he's not saying anything enlightening, but when thinking back on reviews from then to now, all of these things have been lost gradually thanks to reviewers (spurred on by their readers I guess) complaining about having to figure stuff out for themselves and being fully in control... calling the games niche, hardcore and so on.

[@ChosenCrosseyed]

I used to be a gamer but then I found drugs, guitar and girls and coming back to this I had a realization. Make games fun, not philosophical. If you want to have a real discussion about philosphy, read a book. Kant, Unger, Goffman, philosophers and all these thinkin types will provide you with more intellectual stimulation than fucking braid. Games are child's play, and barely even capture the spectrum of complication. I like video games, don't get me wrong, but if video games are your only source of exploration, intellectual conversation and the general human existance, then frankly you don't understand what depth means. You do you though I guess.

[@ScotsFurian]

Played Settlers on amiga without reading the manual. Had to figure it all out by myself as there was no internet back then. Was an AMAZING experiance !

[@PatchyE]

I don't think Zelda is a good fit for what Blow was talking about. Zelda pretty much invented the notion of letting the player figure out themselves what each item does, and there is really not a lot of repetitive fillers. The editor should have put clips of some other games in this video, maybe like Monster Hunter...

[@noxabellus]

+Patchy .E. Totally agree. Zelda games (at least, historically speaking. I haven't played any from 2010+) are basically the opposite of what he was talking about.

[@noxabellus]

***** Ah yeah, that is a fair point

[@AGentertainmentofficial]

Exactly. Would Ocarina of Time been harder without Navi? Yes. But, Ocarina of Time was revolutionary for the time. It had to introduce Zelda in the 3D space and having a NAVIgator worked well. That way it was accessible and isn't as scary to venture out in a big world alone. You had a friend. The problem is that Nintendo used this formula each time after. Navi = Tatl = King of Red Lions = Midna = Fi If Breath of the Wild is open world and doesn't have a navigator, Nintendo will be taking a risk, but it may pay off.

[@hole1274]

I honestly think that skyward sword was a great fit for what he was talking about. That being said, monster hunter (or at least the most recent games) don't explain much at all. In my experience, most everything I learned about the game was from my own experience, or other players. I honestly can't think of any time there's any hand-holding, other than the beginning tutorial (which doesn't really explain any of the game's deeper mechanics), and just about every Zelda game after OOT had just as lengthy of a tutorial.

[@satanorazy]

What is the background music ?? Anyone knows?

[@Pilbaran00b]

He's a wise man. I like him.

[@Ashkanhoss29]

Anyone know what is the music that's playing in the background?

[@gaussminigun]

"Braid was not made to be fun" you're weird, how about that?

[@unslept_em]

+gaussminigun gotta love ad hominem

[@gaussminigun7095]

+happyguyxlii the uselessness of the response reflects the uselessness of the original claim being responded to

[@unslept_em]

+Gauss Minigun that was ad hominem + false analogy you're doing awesome at this

[@gaussminigun7095]

just because you claim it to be a false analogy does not make it so, actually

[@unslept_em]

meh, I'm just really bored and wanted to be dickish what games _do_ you play? we probably don't have common interests or anything, but I might as well ask

[@KetwunsGamingPad]

I still think Zelda always made me think. Even with all the instructions, it doesn’t always hand hold every moment. Puzzles still need your head to be used. Side quests you had to really think. I reckon this guy might have played the wrong games sometimes and assumed the stereotype. I appreciate his thinking but I felt he could have cut some devs slack. I think there are still plenty of devs who let the player think.

[@kecksohn]

if post majora zelda made you think for more than 30 seconds a puzzle you need to finish school first

[@Imamakemovies]

God I love him

[@Stigmaphobia777]

It's actually the other way around. I remember Egoraptor exclaiming how much he loved Braid and admired Blow back when he had a blog. Sequelitis is pretty much him popularizing Blow's ideals. It's pretty cool actually.

[@Zoolookuk]

He really is a very smart guy... I don't know why he gets so much criticism.

[@TheRollsP]

+Zoolookuk Maybe cuz he's smart???

[@Maver1ck101]

Well, he's a very pretentious dude. He probably doesn't realize that many indie game developers have created much better games than his; he's very lucky to have found the fame he has now.

[@smackerlacker8708]

The problem that mainstream developers have is that they have huge amounts of money. They start from the mindset of "let's make something amazing, that looks and sounds cool and is fun to play". As a result, they get bogged down in really expensive, complex details that aren't fundamental to the gameplay experience, and wind up trying to wrap a game around a character model, or a location, or something else that has nothing to do with play. When Nintendo makes a game, they spend two years with a white cube, moving around in an empty room, getting the controls and the core gameplay right, then they add graphics and sounds. Most developers do it the other way around. That's why a game like Fallout 4 looks really cool, but in the end the gameplay is broken and repetitive. The only thing that happens when you shoot an enemy is that a health counter drops by an arbitrary amount, and all the guns are the same. Conversely, you can spend hours with Super Mario 64, just running around that first courtyard, jumping and swimming and having a ball. It has real, visceral, immediate feedback for every action you can take. The core gameplay is there, independent of the levels, and the story, and even the enemies.

[@GRTakerTh]

He is a clever bloke

[@Szilvi1983x10]

"I want to respect my player's time" - I can't thank him enough for it, since I don't have as much time as I had in highschool. But I don't want to give up on my hobby either, that's why I look for short but meaningful experiences. Braid was exactly like that. It was money (and time) well spent. (Played it on PS3, can't wait for Winess on PS4).

[@gaussminigun]

"my game has this deepness to it, and other games that don't have as much deepness just SUCKS"

[@unslept_em]

+gaussminigun not his words, not his message

[@BakCh0y]

+gaussminigun how did you get this message out of this video? wasnt he talking highly about CS?

[@VenturiLife]

He really describes what is wrong with mainstream games. Linear, hand-holding games, too much concentration on graphics, little emotional connection to in-game characters etc. Little thinking or puzzle-solving going on. A very intelligent guy. He brings me back to why I started playing games as a child, the discovery aspect, dying to find out what lies next in the game.

[@originalElctric]

Wow what he says about Japanese games, is what I think of western games.

[@Beefster09]

Wow... I had no idea Jonathan Blow was so... scholarly. That's kind of a different perspective about games. I agree though- hand-holding is no fun.