Jonathan Haidt Talks Banning Smartphones in Schools + The Effects of Social Media on Children

The kids are not alright, and the culprit is their phones. That’s the thesis of social psychologist Jonathan Haidt’s new book, The Anxious Generation. He joins Offline to discuss why he thinks smartphones and social media are fueling a teen and adolescent mental health epidemic, the evidence behind his claims, and the criticism his anti-phone crusade has received. Then he and Jon dive into the four recommendations Haidt believes will lead us out of this crisis.
CHAPTERS
0:00 - Intro
1:50 - How smartphones are affecting kids
5:07 - Are mental health issues correlated with smartphones?
26:40 - Ad break
27:37 - 4 major reforms
39:52 - How social media affects politics & culture
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[@ethanking6396]

I am 20 now, but when I was in middle school I was one of the students who organized a school wide walkout after the Parkland shooting. I wish I didn’t need to organize and go to that protest, I also wish we didn’t live in a country where SCHOOL SHOOTINGS ARE COMPLETELY NORMALIZED. If you want middle school to focus on having fun and learning then keep them safe.

[@florence9556]

Amen! I gave my kids permission to go in the Parkland walkout, but they didn’t organize it. I was terrified sending them to school - can’t even imagine how much worse it was for them.

[@st.augustin5423]

You are the problem

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Thank you for your work. You are a solution in this messed up world.

[@lorieauguste9284]

Exactly! That's why my comment was that they NEED phones so they can call 911 during an active shooter....

[@user-tu4rn8ui9u]

52 year old here, in complete agreement with you

[@sheep4521]

“Adults” like to tell themselves their “maturity & experience” makes them immune to any negative of constantly having their screen in front of their face. But no, they’re not.

[@frankcooke1692]

Older generations are the worst at the internet. Younger people don't respond to scams, and they don't flood their messages with every possible Emoji. Because we're more savvy about it.

[@sheep4521]

@@frankcooke1692my dad is currently sending regular payments to a “girl” half his age, that contacted him on Facebook.

[@billberndtson]

Plus, sore necks!

[@sheep4521]

@@frankcooke1692my dad has been falling for a Facebook scam for over a year now. Some “girl” that looks like a supermodel half his age, has been convincing him to regularly send her money

[@sheep4521]

@@frankcooke1692my dad has been a nightmare with falling for scams on Facebook 🤦‍♂️

[@skyisfalling8173]

I was in middle school during Vietnam and yes, informed. I remember the scare of friend's older siblings receiving low numbers in the draft lottery. I was not too young to process this.

[@lorrie2878]

Me too. I was scared to death of nuclear war in elementary school, middle school I was afraid my brothers would die in Vietnam.

[@ThisHereIsMyHandle]

Now imagine if you had social media showing you actual video from Vietnam directly to you. That’s literally the point. I had the Iraq war and fears of a possible draft as I was approaching draft age. We had the news showing us some video but it was generally large scale and was more or less censored. These kids have access to on the ground video of war zones. Then add to that a lack of in-person social meetings and only interacting how you and I are interacting right now. All they see everywhere is fear mongering and other uncensored mature material on a loop that you and I never experienced at that age.

[@Andi90533]

My middle schooler has no social media footprint. Despite that she has suffered major anxiety issues since being bullied in ES.

[@lizgreer6888]

I did a writing prompt with my 5th graders who have cognitive, neurological and developmental disabilities "Should We Have Cell Phones in school?" All of them the first reason they said was yes because if something awful happens at school i have to be able to talk to my parents. I feel like that's a major problem these kids should not have to worry about.

[@lorrie2878]

But they do.

[@NorthCarolinaMomma]

My 20 year old daughter and I were talking about this yesterday. After talking for a few minutes, I asked her if the active shooter drills in school, while growing up, helped to contribute to the anxiety. She said, absolutely, yes. I didn’t have these drills so I can’t relate and kids can’t really describe how they feel about them after the fact. It’s not until later they realize the danger they were in just by going to school everyday.

[@florence9556]

I agree. Phones and virtual social communities are challenges - but fear of being shot at school is an existential threat.

[@brendag2891]

I volunteered at my kids' elementary school in the early 2000's and was at school during 2 lockdown drills. I even felt a little traumatized by the idea of an active shooter in the school. We had to close all windows and doors, sit quietly against the wall, and wait for the teacher to send an email with the count of how many students were in the classroom. If the count was off, or the Internet was giving the teacher trouble, we had to wait even longer, while imagining we could get killed any second, or see our best friends, sisters, brothers, everyone, anyone get shot with an AR.

[@lorieauguste9284]

Was calling 911 on their phones part of the drill? There are a handful of kids at my grandson's elementary school who have phones. Part of their active shooter drill is... if you have a phone, call 911....

[@NorthCarolinaMomma]

@@lorieauguste9284 not until middle school. They wanted kids to learn to stay silent in elementary school.

[@NorthCarolinaMomma]

One of our colleges (UNC) had a lockdown (at the end of last year) for someone shooting at and killing a professor. These kids are traumatized from all the years of being told they could be murdered while in their classrooms, and it doesn’t go away when the shooting starts at their colleges. In 2022, we had a mass shooting by a 15 year old with open access to firearms in his home. He took aim at and killed his brother then went for a stroll around his neighborhood killing 4 more people and injuring 2 others. The neighborhoods reputation was a middle class, safe, neighborhood, nobody thought it would happen there. Our kids have a different mentality than us. They look at everyone like a potential threat, we don’t. We weren’t raised in the active shooter generation. I can see how they would all be anxious or even a little paranoid all the time.

[@titaniumteddybear]

It is a fascinating argument, and I am learning a lot. But we do have to ask the question: how much more mentally well would young people be if they weren't getting screwed by late stage capitalism? Because even without social media the zoomers wouldn't be doing so hot if the planet was still on fire, wages were still stuck in the 90s, and a fascist was still close to becoming president. You could have the most nurturing social environment imaginable and those problems would be enough to cause a plague of mental illness all by themselves. And then we add the collective trauma of the COVID pandemic. A lot of the current flood of mental illness is not the fault of cell phones. That is the symptom, not the disease.

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

Considering that Jonathan Haidt thinks that anecdotes about temper tantrums from corporate bosses are valid - not to mention anecdotes about awkward interactions with sex workers and 1990s basic HTML websites for queer people - I'm sure we can conclude that he'd dismiss this outright. Apparently nothing in the adult economic and cultural world is valid if it doesn't resemble the adult economic and cultural world of the 1980s - a point which is routinely thrown around by people with far less intellectual rigor than he purports to have.

[@Krazie-Ivan]

given that other countries have kids suffering in the same ways in the same timeframe, despite exerting far more control over capitalism's spiral (actual healthcare/free higher ed/social & mental programs/housing/etc), i'd venture that smart phones/social media play the far bigger role out of the 2 issues.

[@jsrodman]

No individuals are afforded control over capitalism's spiral. There are societies tryingbto mitigate harms better than others, but the trajectory remains apperent to everone.

[@KH-tt3wv]

I find it very telling that Haidt considers young people disengaging from toxic corporate cultures, expecting accommodation for their individual humanity, calling out the harm of the microagressions they experience, and concerning themselves with the plight of others in the world as bad things, just because they have traction now in a way that they didn't when he was young. You know what else has changed since Haidt was young? The expectation that you could grow up to build a career, own a home, and start a family. As an elder millenial, these things were slipping away when I was a young adult, and it must be crushing to look at the future as a child or young adult now. Sure, social media and algorithms contribute their own unique harms, but that's not really what he's talking about here. He gives away the game every time he stops just short of calling Gen Z "snowflakes." If engagement with the world is harmful to kids, the answer isn't to try to further isolate kids from it until they're "old enough" -- it's our job as the adults in the room to demand and build a better, less harmful world. That's a lot harder than taking kid's phones away, but it's the work that's going to matter in the end.

[@jkhbeattie]

Yeah, man, people should expect accommodation. If your work has a deadline you should be allowed to question it. We want a more accommodating world

[@dvezha]

It’s clearly multifactorial like every major issue. It’s messy and complicated and can’t be distilled down to one cause

[@user-bt5rl3rh3b]

I was 13/14 years old when "Watergate" was happening - no smart phones but, we were definitely worried and concerned about this issue

[@user-bt5rl3rh3b]

Also, I was born in 1960 and Vietnam, riots in the streets and police brutality were on the evening news and definitely scared the hell out of me😮

[@h-mz7yk]

I disagree regarding teenage girls not being impacted by economics around them. My grandmother was a teenager during the Great Depression and her personality was very much inspired that event. 911 happened in my middle school years- so I became extremely political at a young age, and then I graduated high school into a recession. I think he is saying things from a very privileged standpoint.

[@judiemeierfranz4329]

Definitely

[@PurpleIrishSweater]

Exactly

[@justinaclayburn2248]

I think the idea that middle schoolers worry about the war in Ukraine because of social media is stupid. When I was a kid in the early 90s we worried about Somalia and the reorganization of the former Soviet Bloc countries because it was something parents talked about and it was on the news. Yes, social media is a contributing factor, but kids weren’t worry free before just because we didn’t have social media.

[@captain_context9991]

--Back then we were also taught literally the "correct" side to be on in these matters. There was no room for dissenting thoughts or having a different perspective. Todays social media. Having access to opinions and lived experiences from both sides, makes us have access to a broader view of things. Like for example being 100% on Israels side in the current atrocities. Today we can know better.

[@emiliog.4432]

It’s different now. Anxiety is going up and not down.

[@ethanhaynes7406]

I don't think you realize the insane amounts of anxiety, depression, and hopelessness kids experience now. It's not just because of political issues, social media in general really messes with kids (and adults) brains.

[@kendomyers]

You were not normal To be clear, my friends and I followed the news in middle school too. We were not normal. When I got a summer job I learned most of my piers talked about sex, gossip and sports and nothing else. They would get angry if you tried to talk about _anything_ else.

[@kendomyers]

​@@captain_context9991 Remember that it cuts both ways. There is evidence that young boys and girls are diverging politically, with young boys becoming far right. Thanks to social media, Andrew Tate and his ilk are raising this current generation of boys. If you don't know who that is, congratulations, just know he's the distillation of all of the worst misogynistic impulses of today. You can check out Prog G's TED talk that the US is destroying the lives of young people, or if you're adventurous, Some More News with Cody Johnston's "Are Men OK?"

[@alexr6683]

I love offline even though I don’t always agree due to my own experience being kind of an early internet adopter and being raised quite liberally… I just could not finish listening to this man. He is extremely dismissive about the good and he greatly exaggerates and emphasizes the bad. And his answer is “let’s go back in time by 3 decades” which is to me the equivalent of giving up on these kids and their use of technology. We cannot teach them to be responsible it is too much time and effort to change anything here. It’s sad and this man should not have an authoritative voice in any solution

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Haidt has been problematic for awhile and he just gets more so with each new book/article.

[@judiemeierfranz4329]

Yes!!!

[@CZPC]

Edit: Seems like many agree with me. By far the worse offline episode in awhile. The first 20 seconds literally killed my entire desire to watch the video.

[@TheMattFarmer]

yeah this one is pretty boomery. I expected John to push back on this guest from some of his weird conservative-lite views and he really didn’t at all.

[@CZPC]

​@@TheMattFarmer Did some further research. This dudes a nutjob.

[@SilverSprings1997]

Some of the responsibility MUST fall on the parents. Why do 8-12 year olds have iphones and unsupervised access to social media?

[@smilnsinger5]

Exactly! Blaming the kids for the actions of their parents, just like mocking millennials for their participation trophies.

[@judydabideen-sonachansingh9772]

My 3 year old grandson talks to his mom about death and the state of the world all the time. It is about the quality of their life experience and the adults in their life enabling their agency. It is about balance and using the tools in their lives to increase their confidence in their ability to deal with life

[@NoSacredCowFla]

I grew up in the Cold War era, and in grade school, we ducked and covered and worried the Russians were going to drop "the bomb". Then was Vietnam. There were no smart phones.

[@lorieauguste9284]

Same here

[@wPatrickSF]

When I was in the eighth grade (1969), I participated in anti-war protests. Every night on the evening news I heard the war death toll.

[@TheOldHippiebilly]

Me too. I was certain we'd all perish in a nuclear war long before my 30th birthday.

[@ThisHereIsMyHandle]

Now imagine all that trauma with the added media of uncensored video from war zones, an avalanche of public opinion being shoved down your throat, fear mongering that any Joe Smo can make sound informed or official with no actual standing. These kids are going through everything we did with the addition of all these social media issues. It’s not an “or” situation, it’s an “and” and it absolutely makes it worse

[@GlassSpiider]

Jon struggling to keep podcaster face after all that boys do this and girls do that ramble feels like all of us

[@StefanHayden]

This was a really hard one to watch. I'm sure most people agree there are problems but these solutions seem to all miss the mark. One of my core problems is that smartphone and social media are not the same thing. Focus on general social media problems instead of "the phone"

[@chrishollingsworth7413]

They aren’t identical but having a video, music, and video game system (the frequent other uses of smart phones in classrooms) is still a major distraction. Spoken from experience. I don’t think you believe a student affectively having a TV playing during their lessons is tenable.

[@mteacher9811]

There's no stretch here. "The phone" is the "the 24/7 access" to social media.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

100%. He even admits that a flip phone would be fine.

[@quietreason8679]

Cory Doctorow had a recent blog post about this that was pretty good. He points out that the issue with our phones often boils down to the data-collection & advertisement business model. Whether it's impossible body standards, vaccine scepticism, political and religious radicalization, or any number of other issues, they're all made worse by the algorithms ability to keep people's eyes glued to the screen. Instead of banning phones, maybe we should be banning the ways in which some companies exploit our data in an attempt to keep us hooked on our phones?

[@chrishollingsworth7413]

@@quietreason8679 I am in firm agreement that the underlying models and how they are used to target kids and adults is a big part of this. However, I still think banning phones from classes (meaning they physically do not have them) while giving parents sone concrete alternatives for safety (and hopefully addressing those safety woes head on) is still the best course in conjunction. Smart phones and their features, not just their algorithms are too distracting for class time.

[@stefanblandin]

Crazy how he goes on one hand saying "We can't coddle kids, they need to be brave and face new things" to "Social media is unbearable and impossible to handle". He also has this weird old man ish thing going on where "If we could only go back to the X years ago time, we'd be great". It wouldn't surprise me if he started saying "Cyberbullying is bad, but IRL bullying serves a useful purpose and we shouldn't keep kids out of it." Very strange choice of guests, Jon.

[@judiemeierfranz4329]

Agree!!!

[@Magical_Conch]

I think "unsupervised play" might have been code for that

[@eliafuimaono94]

Parents are in more control than ever before, and educators are handcuffed to push back at them. Parents need to get a life, teachers need a raise.

[@SL420-]

I actually don't disagree with you. I think parents should have a lot of INFLUENCE over what information their children receive, but I do not believe there should have CONTROL over information, education, or access therein. The world is also an educational experience and a lot of parents have become convinced that it is corrupting and bad, and instead of preparing their children with critical thinking skills, they just try to conceal them from it and brainwash them into accepting no new information that they haven't first vetted.

[@frankcooke1692]

@@SL420- Haidt never addresses the culpability of the parents of these children. He's exploiting the 'grievance culture' market. Many parents of his generation have children that they fail to connect with, and he is scapegoating 'technology' as an explanation, rather than looking inward at how they have been failed by their parents. The people who buy his books are looking for excuses, not solutions.

[@pendorran]

It's worse than that, Nobody is really in control.

[@emvandermeulen1908]

24:20 For me, it was when he started ripping on people’s accommodations at work. Fuck this guy. He’s not wrong about the phones though.

[@aneru9396]

Yeah-a lot of things he was talking about came off as a survival of the fittest type of thing. Especially when he goes over that some kids just get excluded, and brushes it off like it’s nothing.

[@Freerider93]

You people are so caught up in your feelings you can't accept the truth. 😂

[@Freerider93]

​@@aneru9396 He's not brushing it off, he's talking about REALITY. Yes, some kids get left out. The point is about kids learning to overcome struggles, like this, being a valuable life skill children aren't learning. Why would he talk about it more than what he did when that isn't the point of the discussion.........

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

Exactly - one of his anecdotes that he doesn’t understand are connected to his own personal “vibes” about the world. Say what you will about Gen Z, I can’t say I felt all that bad about boomer corporate bosses throwing a fit because their youngest employees question the need to throw their entire lives into their work when it isn’t absolutely necessary. The fact that this doesn’t occur to Jonathan Heidt is pretty discouraging.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Haidt is 30 years behind in his views on psychology, so it's no wonder he isn't accepting of modern solutions. He probably thinks most autistic and ADHD people are misdiagnosed. His solution is mask or be left behind.

[@CaliNic30]

I believe that A Lot of general anxiety in yonger generations has to do with the increase in mass shootings and the active shooter drills they went through... Addition/Edit: This peron really doesn't know how the internet works.

[@annagaw5312]

I work with college students. Today they are developmentally about 14 years old when entering college, compared to eighteen for earlier generations. I don’t think this is the sole reason, but i think it does play a role. But I also think the over-planning and chauffeuring of kids and isolation of suburbs also plays a role. And maybe those things working together are amplifying the problem. But this is all my anecdotal thoughts, I want to see evidence.

[@ianolsen4260]

This video gave me anxiety.

[@fredtirbo4411]

Seems like the 'adults' are the real problem.

[@frankcooke1692]

Yeah but it's the 'adults' who buy his books. He can't tell them that

[@CokedUpLoafOfBread]

PUT THAT ON A SHIRT

[@kimberlybwalker11]

I guess what he is saying about kids in middle school is true- if you come from a white, suburban, middle class family…

[@livenandlove1980]

Exactly

[@PurpleIrishSweater]

In a non-Evangelical family, with parents who don’t watch Fox News 24/7….

[@msvulcanspock]

And lives in the gender norms of a 1950s sitcom.

[@Asbg90]

This guy WILDLY overindexes on anecdotal data -- my favorite was when he claimed "gen Z boys have trouble making eye contact because of social media" all because Stormy Daniels mentioned that in the past few years many young men can't look her in the eyes during a lapdance. Not only is that just a single piece of "evidence", it's quite the specific and uncommon scenario to draw conclusions about behavior in general/outside strip clubs. And the cherry on top is that he immediately draws the conclusion that this behavior was caused by growing up with social media, without considering any of the millions of other possible reasons?? Like he just interprets everything in the context of his theory. Just riddled with logical fallacies Dont get me wrong, I actually do believe that social media is damaging for young people, but not every single observation is evidence of that. I dont think this guy made a single valid argument the whole time which was disappointing because this is a great topic. Jon and Max have much better and more nuanced conversations on the subject

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

This was easily his most laughably bizarre anecdote - if not just because it was an anecdote based on anecdotal hearsay. Can't say I'm familiar with the norms of heterosexual strip clubs, but there are all kinds of reasons why Stormy Daniels may not be connecting with clients two decades or more younger than her, and "it must be the phones" is a bit of an odd conclusion to draw...and a reckless choice for Jonathan Haidt to bring in here.

[@smittywce2809]

After listening a bit further, I have to comment again. The guest may be an expert on this topic, but he is clearly not an expert on education and the education system. Too many of his solutions are naive and unrealistic. At about 29 minutes, the guest suggests that allowing phones in schools is insane. I maintain that teaching kids how to use phones and digital tools appropriately is the right approach. Effective classroom management techniques can prevent students from being distracted during class. Schools can implement rules and strategies that will reduce the misuse of phones at school. To be clear, I’m not saying I never have students misbehaving, but I can confidently state that the majority of the time, students are focused on the activities I’ve assigned using the available tools. It’s absurd to believe that banning phones is the only solution. The more you ban something, the more people want it. The guest’s comment about students needing to go to the bathroom more frequently to check their phones illustrates the need for teaching management rather than abstinence.

[@HowdIEvenGetHere]

This. All this

[@wodentoad1]

Absolutely! You're a rare teacher that is teaching them *where they are* and not where YOU were or even your parents are. Schools should be the first to adapt to new technology, not the last.

[@christinaheater2500]

As a fellow MS teacher, I use to agree with this. Teaching the photography elective we would go over settings on their phone and using it instead of just a digital camera. As a math teacher, it is handy to have access to the calculator. However, we give every student a chromebook and many online tools can be taught using it. Also, when students are at school and not in a class where you can monitor, they will do what they want, which is social media. The only way they learn to communicate inperson is by taking the phones away for the whole day.

[@Freerider93]

The fact that you are a teacher and don't understand the anecdotal fallacy is quite disturbing. Just because you personally don't experience what he is talking about in your class room doesn't mean your classroom is representative OR that your kids aren't struggling with serious emotional health issues because of cell phone use. We have evidence that schools that have banned cell phones have better outcomes. Maybe it's time for you as a teacher to start researching this subject seriously?

[@emiliog.4432]

@@Freerider93yes. Some people apply their experience, anecdotally, to all situations. A teacher should know that. Your experience is not all situations.

[@LogicAndReason2025]

If we want to improve our schools, copy the Finland model.

[@mariejohansen5985]

Which includes banning phones

[@ImaginaryFrend]

Times change, in the past 11 year olds were serving in the civil war. Kids are so much smarter these days. Maybe not based on the previous litmus tests though.

[@HowdIEvenGetHere]

I think Haidt confused prevalence and reporting. While I can’t disagree with the likelihood that there is more mental distress in our younger generations, I think the reason it’s more of an issue is because people aren’t masking it like they used to have to. The thing we’re seeing is partly an increase in prevalence, but more so a result of greater reporting and awareness

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

I wonder if Haidt believes in masking. I get the impression he probably doubts much of the diagnoses for autism and ADHD, based on his antiquated views.

[@Cloudy4Days]

As an lgbtq+ person who figured that out around middle school in like, 2013 or so- the Internet was amazing to finally have a way to give words to who I am. However, it also meant that I would hear about every horrible thing that happens to lgbtq+ people. So, I definitely would say that it was good to have the Internet at that time in my life as a closeted queer person in a rural, conservative family. At the same time though, there are some horrors that I've seen and that I can never forget due to the Internet

[@user-tu4rn8ui9u]

I am 52 years old and a mom. I totally understand this argument. However, I am equally concerned about adults. I know many people my age who have completely lost their minds and are more glued to their phones than their kids. I just wish we could apply this logic to everyone. Big tech companies could re-engineer their algorithms and technology for healthier outcomes and they don’t - for profit. I wish more blame went there.

[@mteacher9811]

Social Skills > Social Media.

[@JohnDoppler]

The two should never have been decoupled. That's where everything went to hell.

[@StefanHayden]

Wait are we saying there were no college protests before 2015? 41:45

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Haidt has always cherry-picked his arguments and examples.

[@anastasiiazdorikova]

As a 33 year old millenial I would respect the younger colleagues who refuse to work on weekends. I only learned to stand my ground in my late 20s. It's not asking for accomodation, it's a norm in the countries with decent labor laws

[@iammrbeat]

I am just as worried about the adults as the kids regarding social media and smart phone use. Heck, I'm probably MORE worried about the adults. Kids are often more resilient than adults. At around 25:00 Haidt's speculation is a bit too far-fetched. He begins sharing "KIDS THESE DAYS" anecdotes. Oh please. Social awkwardness and social avoidance is not a new problem with young people. The bigger problem is addiction to these apps and devices, which is just as bad with Boomers as it is with Zoomers.

[@jhholmes5252]

High school seniors reading newspapers?

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

I mean, I did it in1987,lol. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@LaSmoocherina]

I want a phone in my kid’s backpack during class but have access in case of active shooters.

[@christinaheater2500]

I understand your concern and the idea that your child can use the phone to get help. The problem, though is that the phone can also be used by the shooter to find your child, when they hear the phone go off and by monitoring social media in the moment.

[@wodentoad1]

@@christinaheater2500 It's called "Silent" mode or "Do not disturb". Most phones have it.

[@Freerider93]

Then give them a flip phone.

[@bretthake7713]

​@@christinaheater2500 I'm sorry, you're saying active shooters check Facebook to find their targets while actively shooting? How does that work exactly? Just wondering if the 6 year olds that aren't old enough have facebook profiles are postong their class room number or maybe some other way? They must, and then shooter sees the post because they're obviously friends with every student in the entire school? In uvalde the cops told students to call out for help and the shooter got to the students first and executed them, do you want to ban all cops too? Cell phones might ring so they have to die alone and without any way to call for help? Like what are you even saying

[@Freerider93]

​@@wodentoad1 Yes, because putting your phone on silent is what every kid does when bullets are flying past their heads. 🤡

[@quietreason8679]

This video is an excellent demonstration of why Haidt is problematic. He dismisses out of hand that people say he confuses correlation with causation, and then he goes on to talk about correlation as if it's causation. When asked about the best evidence, he doesn't cite a controlled experiment or a large-n study that controls for all those other variables he dismisses. Instead he just cites himself: "I couldn't find anyone saying anything I disagree with, so my argument must be true"...

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Haidt is also self-contradictory. In one book he argues against safe spaces and trigger warnings, and in his very next book argues for banning the thing doing the harm. To summarize, he's against content warnings and freedom of association, but for banning "dangerous" materials. Make up your mind Jonathan, are youth fragile or not?

[@judiemeierfranz4329]

​@thecuriousboardgamer agree. Even here he contradicts himself. Plus he uses the term "happiness" as if it's a definite term between different people. I would add, are people supposed to rate our (or others) lives on the someone'sdefinition of "happiness"? Then they are set up for dissatisfied lives and possibly a lack of empathy and growth. We have a range of emotions. I just don't think we should rate our lives on someone's definition of happiness.

[@frankcooke1692]

It's very transparent to me that he is not a serious person. He's an industry plant. A publisher saw an opportunity to promote a career intellectual to exploit the grievances of disenfranchised fathers. He is only there to reaffirm their grievances and sell books to them.

[@JayBea]

I haven't gone deep on Haidt before, but he's been around a long time and I've always just kinda accepted that he's a serious writer and researcher. But I was entirely unimpressed with him here. Starting with his wholesale dismissal of alternate theories with "eh, that's the pundit bias where if all you care about is climate change then you'll think it's the cause of everything." Like... no, that's not remotely the case here with Jon. Then he goes on to cite anecdote after anecdote. I'm not even saying I disagree with his premise or think his suggestions are necessarily wrong, I just really dislike bad arguments for my own side. Stop making good ideas look like they have sloppy thinking behind them! Go stand in the corner with Malcolm Gladwell until you're ready to be a mature thinker.

[@frankcooke1692]

@@JayBea If I recall he started to appear about 12 or 15 years ago, doing the circuit. He has a good agent who tried to crowbar him into the same sentence as Dawkins and Sam Harris, but if you look beneath the surface he doesn't have the same credentials. He's a sociology professor, and not to detract from anybody who chooses to study those kinds of fields, but it's a bit of a circle-jerk when removed from any context - which he lacks. He's sort of the Coldplay of the 'intellectual speaker' genre.

[@Fabdanc]

I have always had a very strong social media rules. 1.) Never ever follow anyone you work with outside of LinkedIn. 2.) Only follow people you know in real life. Anyone you want to see that you don't know in real life has a public profile.

[@GrahamDore]

I think if Jonathan haidt partnered with youth advocacy orgs and engaged in some professional mentorship with his time that the message he spends an awful lot of time promoting on late night talk shows and on the news would probably get through to a lot more folks who need to hear it. Kids hearing from kids that are normalizing how social media/screens aren't good for them will work a lot better than making them feel adults are allowed but they have to wait. Haven't we all heard of teen drinking...? Inclusivity and cross generational collaboration would make Jonathan's work pop, have greater persuasive power and reach, and would likely make people feel he's less old or out of touch himself as a messenger. This is lowkey why I love watching Jon and max talk about it, because they're more fun and relatable. I legitimately work as a researcher on a study just like thus about social media's impact on developmental mental health in kids, but I'm sorry you're just going to start to lose people when you try to speak outside of your scope - and I think he's probably a great dad if he has kids and a very smart academic - but since when is that who kids form their opinions on the social world from. People don't want to be more like adults in nerdiness, genuine conviction, or hard work-ethic, but rather in terms of liberty. It sucks being told you're not old enough yet, and perhaps adults don't leave as great of a model as they think when it comes to their own screen-based behaviors making it v unfair when adults talk like this. Tamagatchis and DS was a better era than screw it let's give them all iPhones. And Jonathan's message may be best received and most effective if he worked on educating parents and clinicians on methods for actually implementing "unplugging" initiatives in the name of all the perils of social media he's been pointing out instead of he himself trying to be the advocate for the youth. Self-awareness and cultural humility go a long way

[@smittywce2809]

As an educator of middle school students, my students use digital tools all the time. I disagree with the approach of banning all phones. I believe that we should be teaching students how to use their phones as tools as well as toys. We should be teaching them how to actively regulate their phone usage as well as how to investigate information they hear. Taking the ‘toys’ away while they’re in school and then giving them back to them when they’re done school only leads to adults who are unable to manage themselves with their digital toys properly. I have noticed this common approach in our society, shutting things down rather than fix the systemic problems. The systemic problem here is that digital tools can be detrimental, but if used properly they are also valuable in fighting ignorance and misinformation.

[@dolliscrawford280]

You can teach the critical thinking piece without the cell phone. Use books with pictures. Sounds like the teacher is addicted also. Use a pencil and paper. If saving paper electronic tablets would work inside the classroom that can only send and not receive.

[@wodentoad1]

This is exactly what teachers need to be doing! I've been saying it for a while, but instead? Our school system spends tens of thousands of taxpayer money on Yondr.

[@wodentoad1]

@@dolliscrawford280 Old man yells at cloud. Teachers need to teach students WHERE THEY ARE, not in the Leave it to Beaver place that you believe all schools to be. Teaching them to use technology with their daily lives, gives our students an advantage.

[@wanderlustworldschooling543]

Yup! I’m a middle school teacher too and this is how I feel too. It’s also how I raised my own child.

[@GNAON]

@@dolliscrawford280thank you for your insight. Do you have a comment about what he said about boys and girls and group chats fostering loneliness?

[@lorieauguste9284]

They need phones at school so they can call 911 during an active shooter attack....

[@JohnDoppler]

The school can call 911. The kids need their phones to say goodbye to their families.

[@paulkenny105]

Phones got in school when guns got in. And gun emergency drills are the source of a lot of that anxiety because it makes it seems like gun violence far more prevalent

[@katm2140]

Shame you didn't push back on the strawman of Gen Z in the workplace.

[@captain_context9991]

To the kids.... It probably makes adults look awfully old to want to ban their social media "lifeline" in school. But its probably just a very, very good idea. Because this is not healthy.

[@Freerider93]

The problem is that social media is your lifeline....................

[@captain_context9991]

@@Freerider93 Which is why I put it like that, yes.

[@Freerider93]

@@captain_context9991 sorry I missed that. Good point!

[@GlassSpiider]

I'm at @16:00 and it's a climb to listen around the guest's gendered behavior generalizations. I realize what he is saying is broadly true but as a girl child through to adult woman, I never played the gossip game or whatever; I actively shun mean-girl drama, mainly doing what's being described by Jonathan Haidt, at length, as boy-coded activities. So, do these generalizations about boys and girls, never mind apparently anything outside the binary, apply the same way to the opposite sex? Because despite having done all the things that Haidt says boys do for dopamine with a side of fun, I have all the things that he says men who grew up that way lack. Or is it generational? I am much older than Gen Anxious, so pursuing stimulation like video games or p0rn still required leaving your home and navigating the real world on some level when I was a tween

[@tracyvieting305]

I am 51 and it has gotten me to ignore my chores

[@tammystockley-loughlin7680]

My dog is in heat so I'm hanging out here in the warm sun...saving up the memory for the cold times,lol. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself during these trying times.

[@jkhbeattie]

Wow, this is some boomer nonsense. Really bro? It’s the ‘going to a protest’ and not ‘we have active shooter drills every month’? Phones don’t have to be isolating. We can let them be, or we can not let them be.

[@burntorangehorn]

I didn't get the impression that he was saying that going to a protest is the problem, but rather that being at the beck and call of constant notifications that usually represent social, emotional, and current events stressors do children significant harm. Their connectedness becomes not merely an obligation, but a constant threat, and living under constant threat can cause significant trauma. I developed PTSD from the constant threat of a combat environment, and could see how we're traumatizing kids by increasing their constant burden so much. He's not saying this is the first time kids have experienced such a thing, but rather that removing the constant obligation could help.

[@DennisMoore664]

When I was a kid back in the 70's and 80's I realize now that I had all sorts of anxiety and depression and other mental issues due to the trauma that was going on my my home life and in the world around me, but nobody recognized it for what it was back then or did anything to try and treat it. I was just a problem child acting out.

[@mollymclean-xj3qd]

How about why are people having kids? Apparently everyone is so miserable, capitalism and democracy are crumbling, drug addiction and people experiencing homelessness are skyrocketing, bankruptcy caused by medical costs, climate refugees will be the norm in 20 years if we’re lucky. I’m asking seriously, why?

[@frankcooke1692]

Those are all policy issues. You can raise children who will vote to correct them.

[@masakazuishiguro8525]

As someone who has a master degree in applied psychology, it’s pretty clear that a lot issues that the guest talked about is actually outside of his expertise and he was very ignorant of the limitations of social psychology. He was actually talking more like a privileged businessman: more bluffings and biases, less truth.

[@timd9929]

Yeah this guy is a bit extreme. While I appreciate his point of view but I this becomes an issue when parents aren't involved in their kids lives. I have 2 teens. Both have internet access. Both have phones. My wife spend ton of time talking about what isn't good, what to avoid. The conversations that my parents would not have with me about the world is now so much easier. This guys research is basically "what would bad content do to people" and he found that it can affect kids without monitoring their behavior. Surprised? Not really. This is a bit alarmist even for PSA.

[@garywidom]

Senior in HS reading the newspaper? This guy is a dinosaur.

[@frankcooke1692]

The other day I saw a guy buy a newspaper at 7/11 and pay cash for it. Up to that point I had no idea that those things were still possible. I'm actually glad that they're still available because broadsheet newspapers have a lot of practical applications. I'm about to do some re-decorating, for example.

[@Roguerebel297]

This guest was odd.. I can’t quite put my finger on it. I feel like he’s making sweeping generalizations especially when referencing gender differences and certain behaviours. He was all over the place imo The loss of community I think is the biggest hit. All we have are corporations now

[@JohnDoppler]

Seems like he's at the stage of his evolution where he's about to tip over into full-blown right-wing rhetoric but doesn't want to seem that way. He's working out a way to convincingly justify his biases about "PC culture" and "safe spaces" in the conclusions, but he doesn't have the patter down yet and it seems forced and contradictory.

[@fatesrequiem]

@@JohnDopplerHaidt has gotten more attention from right wing circles in the last ten years after he published the Righteous Mind, mostly because he’s a little center right and has professional disagreements with things like trigger warnings. That said he’s not disrespectful or dismissive of the LGBTQ crowd like actual right wingers. I think what you’re sensing is someone stepping between echo chambers. There’s a coded dialect we all fall into and so when someone steps across there’s like a lingering expectation of shared understanding and framing that doesn’t match up. I’ve read some of his books, and he has some really great perspectives on moral psychology. He’s just more to the right than I am, and that’s okay.

[@Fringe31422au]

Based on the comments, I'm surprised to find that I don't have much that I disagree with. Some details are rough, but I pretty agree with the big picture stuff. In my experience, there does need to be some friction between minors and smartphones. It's really an exercise of boundaries to figure out getting stuff done and the things you can deal with. There's a time and place and it definitely isn't all the time. The biggest argument for phone bans in schools comes from places that tried it. It helps a lot. And in emergencies, parents just contact the school. There are contructive ways to keep students connected to the people they need. However, where I heavily diagree is where Haidt brings up KOSA which feels more like a way for politicians to exert their own form of moderation under the guise of protecting the children. A more general and sustainable solution should look at the way the algorithms work to cut down on the outrage cycle.

[@Leaga]

The casualness of a "or a watchphone" made me realize that we really are in the Sci Fi future of Inspector Gadget.

[@elysse3653]

8:23 wait wait wait! mental health was “fine???!!?!” kids’ mental health was never fine. I’m an older millennial and I was gaslit daily by my parents, peers and teachers. I was in significant distress. my life was miserable every single day. I was not “fine” my anxiety, depression and psychosis were undiagnosed and untreated for more than 20 years. no one ever asked about my mental health. I was anything but “fine” when I was in middle school in the 90s, I read almost every book in my local library’s psychology section. had I not educated myself, it probably would have taken even more than 20 years to get a full and accurate diagnosis I try not to resort to insults, but you can go to hell. I am deeply, personally wounded by your crass, overbroad and unscientific statements about mental health not being a crisis over the past few decades. just because I was abused into silence did NOT mean I was “fine” I can’t even listen to this any more. you all owe me an apology-and you owe one to everyone else that suffered in silence and were showered with emotional abuse.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

There are many that agree with you. Haidt is has his supporters, but many of us recognize his antiquated views on mental health and socialization.

[@tammyburke9453]

You sound ridiculous! Owe you an apology? Oh for f**ks sake!

[@brendag2891]

Thank you for this perspective! I have not heard this put so eloquently. I'm so glad you do this podcast! (I am a mom and a teacher)

[@jturh]

I'm really disappointed in this. You guys are always talking about things with the general public like how the economy is doing, how people feel about crime, etc related to polling and how feelings can be a misrepresentation of reality, but there is no pushback when his primary argument is that no one says social media is positive? Just because something sounds right doesn't mean it is and I don't like the way you just allowed him to soapbox. He goes from talking about how kids need to encounter difficulty and scrape their knees, but god forbid they play violent video games or see gore. I don't know, I didn't find his arguments convincing and I wish you'd pushed back harder on his reasoning that leads to the ideas he's selling.

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

Honestly I don’t entirely fault Jon for this. He gave him free rein to say the deeply stupid things he never gets to say on media outlets where he’s treated like the next Great American Genius out to save America’s children. He’s been exposed.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

He's self-contradictory. Says trigger warnings and safe spaces teach kids that they're fragile and then he wants to ban phones because... kids are fragile.

[@Danala22]

But we DO need to have this conversation. It is how we move forward. I don't have an issue with this topic & this discussion. I don't want to stay in my bubble....I want to hear all sides.

[@TheMattFarmer]

This one. Thank you for putting this into words. This episode really sucked. Almost sounded like a Fox News segment.

[@andrewmcmanus9023]

@@TheMattFarmer I actually don't see it this way. Watch him interviewed on the Daily Show and you'd think he was the savior of America's children. Jon helped to expose him as just another regressive right wing boomer - something corporate media certainly was never going to do.

[@leilap2495]

I was not “fine” during Bush. I was not being provided any mental health support either. If it isn’t known about, does it therefore not exist? Does my childhood mental health not matter because it predated the internet, smart phones, etc?

[@dolliscrawford280]

They are bad for adults also.

[@mayowa_525]

I get his point, about phone free school but in a society where school shootings are not uncommon it feels risky to make it difficult for your kid to reach you, but I see how a flip phone does the job.

[@Corrupted16348]

It's the parents job, not the schools. My child was embarrassed having a fip phone last year in the 8th grade, so they never pulled it out at school unless they needed to contact me after school. Be a parent and prevent them from having unrestricted access to social media and the internet.

[@Eyeball_Heroin]

Very interesting, I liked hearing his thoughts on the subject of bringing us back from the edge. Social media, phones.

[@PeterR0035]

THANK YOU ♥

[@chrishollingsworth7413]

I take any parent (or frankly anyone rightly concerned with school safety) seriously on the issue of gun violence and the decades of inaction that have frayed trust and nerves of everyone who wants to see change. I think there are meaningful ways to think about technology and real reforms to deal with that particular blight. Speaking as a teacher (specifically a middle school teacher) I do need to insist that the current smart phone status quo is completely unacceptable. In a full school year, I had not a single day or class period where phone use was not a problem, and where class cohesion, focus, and engagement were not undermined. The social aspect of the technology is the most salient here. The majority of the students have the phones and reinforce their use for each other. Even when a phone has been temporarily confiscated and locked in my desk, I’ve seen my students fixate and grow anxious by it merely being nearby. These all add up to hours and even days of compromised education. I am happy to entertain many solutions here, but unfettered access to the smart phones is killing the necessities of the student led (and essential) part of their collective learning development. It is unconscionable.

[@vengadragon]

42:45 so profound.

[@itzjay116]

Can’t wait for some 40 something’s to talk about kids being influenced at schools lol

[@1covertninja]

Disagree with this fella. Hard pass.

[@maddmattakadrockbokdragon970]

Now that bump stocks are legal again, kids need their phones in school more than ever. How else are they supposed to say goodbye to Mom and Dad? 😢

[@KuueenKumi]

Your tone is disgustingly flippant

[@skyisfalling8173]

Good one.

[@hippypunkdragon]

​@KuueenKumi his argument also ignores that kids can have basic flip phones still. It's the 24/7 access to social media and unfettered internet that is causing the issues.

[@horrido666]

I agree bump stocks should be illegal, but they reduce lethality of an AR15 in these spree mass killings. There is a reason the M16A2 has a 3 shot limiter. When you aim each round, the lethality goes through the roof. Full auto like this is not used for killing, but for suppressing an enemy in combat.

[@Freerider93]

​@@horrido666 are you trolling?

[@JillKnapp]

I'm so happy Jonathan Haidt is making the rounds; I'm hoping that his important message gets heard by as many folks as possible. I really appreciate how calmly he provides information while offering solutions without sounding all "kids today, amirite?”

[@eyewaszero]

Phones aren’t allowed in middle schools/ high schools in the Netherlands anymore. As a teacher I can honestly say it’s been glorious

[@ThePequenocristo]

I'm Gen X. I read the newspaper in middle school. I delivered the dang things. I also watched the evening news with my parents. Kids in middle school are able to understand serious issues at a base level to start honing their critical thinking skills. To say this automatically produces crippling anxiety is simplistic.

[@jeffreyvollmer5417]

This episode is fantastic! Thank you so much for giving Jonathan Haidt a platform to speak here! ❤️❤️

[@fatesrequiem]

Jonathan Haidt on Crooked Media?! What an unexpected and wonderful surprise. His book The Righteous Mind was a fantastic read. HIGHLY recommend.

[@EthanDeanplus]

Jon, you should have Brene Brown on to talk about hope. I just listened to her on the Pivot podcast and what she said is right up this show's alley.

[@Jeremo67]

My kids, HS & MS, have the Light Phone, which is a just a phone with texting but no camera and can't receive photos. This phone has been great but I can see how addicting the phone can be just given how much my HS kid texts even on the Light Phone.

[@Ghee_Buttersnaps]

Fascinating conversation, or I imagine it was Idk I was on my phone doom scrolling on Reddit the whole time 😊

[@patriciaveech5393]

Happy day!! I have been waiting for these two guys named Jon to converse for a long while. As a MH professional, I had a front row seat to the seismic collapse of young people's mental health in the mid 2010's. Prof. Haidt is hands down the most important public intellectual of our day. He brings the research, connects the dots and offers interventions that will improve lives. His predictions about the potential collapse of the U.S. liberal democracy are prescient and sobering. He ends with optimism that we are waking up to these problems. I only hope it is not too late. Fantastic interview!!

[@jannetteberends8730]

Just saw a video about Dutch children being the happiest of the world. One element that contributes to this, is that children are taken seriously. They, elementary school children, have their own news on the public broadcast, where the daily news is presented on their level. A lot of grownups admit, a bit sheepishly, that they prefer to watch this Jeugd Jornaal ((The youth news report), because it’s easier to follow with more explanation.

[@Nithrade]

Thank's for that podcast! Really an existential topic, in my opinion. What we do to our kids at the moment is really monstrous, and I'm so glad we are starting to realize this.

[@karlteskey4753]

I graduated from a mid-western high school in 2002, during my freshman year Columbine happened and by my senior year 9/11 happened. Cell phones were around and quickly getting more common. Social anxieties were ever present and clearly a social stigma. I feel cell phones/social media exacerbate mental health issues. It's like most things in the world there are good and bad, shades of gray.

[@ashleyl6590]

I made it a full 7 minutes and 3 seconds into the video before I couldn't watch further. I went to the comments and realized it wasn't just me. Phew.

[@werewolfjedi38]

Okay having listened to everything he said, this guy isnt lgbt, he wasnt poor, he wasnt surrounded by a world growing up that felt like it could go wrong in single day. I was a 90s kid. 9-11 changed my entire concept of the world. That change didn't happen gradually. It is going to be scary scary scary. And ill admit, not having a smart phone as a kid, did not stop me from seeing, becoming interested in and seeling out cartoon and animation character based porn. I was naughty and i downloaded it to a thumb drive while i was at school. i kept hidden that could put the pictures on my screen late at night with my xbox. Social media would not have changed that. It might have actually prevented it more tbh, because then my parents would have been able to set limits. Also. I was never lonely playing video games in my teens. Multi-player chat was raw and no one have a shit. We got to rage and joke and jist have fun. There were no performances there. And the kids that had tobstay home after school, we did things together there because then everyone could be happy. That might just be a girl thing, i wouldnt know. All i know is that i didnt feel lonely.

[@Estringman]

Let's go California! Heard one of their districts banned cellphones from classes.

[@diamonddog3685]

Overall I agree with this guy. But the effect of violent video games is often overstated, and he unfortunately falls into this common trap. Violent games predominantly cause a desensitisation to real world violence, but they haven't been shown to increase violent behavior, aside from short term increases to aggression. And while many video games rely on addictive mechanics that produce continuous dopamine drips, violent games are mostly first person shooters which require challenging problem solving using line of sight tactical mechanics that more often result in failure than reward. Theres also breaks in thr action when a player dies, which interupts any dopamine reward, or you die and have to watch the rest of the players finish the map and wait even longer for a reward. All this said, violent games do have addictive mechanics, as do RPGs. But mostly they are fun! Which is distinct from rapid dopamine drip games. Many men will play golf every week for hours. Most people will watch television daily for hours. Just because it's enjoyable and habit forming doesn't make it dopamine sapping. Mobile games like Candy Crush are the slot machine like games that truly sap dopamine, whereas shooters are more akin to swinging a baseball bat and missing the ball more than you hit it.

[@deecook7437]

I have always told my kids, that you gotta fall down and scrape your knees to grow up. Now I'm telling my grand babies every time they fall, their tooth gets a little looser. Growing is a little painful sometimes

[@MieyaO]

I was just speaking to my husband why as adults we have to schedule time to see each other. My parents alsays had friends "in the neighborhood" that stopped by because fhey saw we were home. But today thats frown upon. For clarity these were they're close friends and not a random associate.

[@danieles6684]

EFFECTS not affects! Quick, change it!

[@Akvandy]

My parents went into teaching in the 80s because they received good pensions and could help the community. They told me to not pursue a career in teaching because they rarely felt valued and it wasn’t until I started substituting myself to realize they were right. I simply do not get paid enough to deal with this. I don’t think social media is any more guilty than any access to the internet. Since avoiding the internet is largely impossible we must accept that kids might know more younger. The key would be reducing global strife while promoting prosocial behavior. Like flood the system with good things… if you can’t beat them join them and out-work them. It starts at home because most teachers are wasting time being parents when obnoxious and frankly bratty children expect life to revolve around them. Social media tends to increase this self obsession for sure but if parents together with teachers teach self discipline that is the root issue in my opinion.

[@an-gw8nx]

This is guy is right with most of his points, if only the people in power would listen and parents take more responsability, as the mother of 3, I gave my oldest who is now 22 a phone at 12 when he started secondary school, what a mistake that was, my middle got a cheap phone with little access to anything when she started secondary school and I will be doing the same with the youngest this year, also phone is removed when they come in from school, unfortunatley the secondary schools encourage phones to take photos of homework while their primary schools had an all out ban.

[@florence9556]

My kids used to say the only thing worse than a group chat is not being on a group chat. This is not a problem that individual parents can fix.

[@thecuriousboardgamer]

Exactly. Not allowing your kid to access social media until 16 isn't going to help if literally all their friends are on it at 12. If anything, that makes it worse. There has to be coordination.

[@loooooooooby]

I'm not a parent, I only took 1 psych class in college just to meet my elective requirement, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think kids under 16 should even have a smart phone at all. A classic cell phone sure, for calls and texts, a calculator, basic functions like that. But that's it. Most other functions don't seem necessary, at least not until you're out in the world working, driving, etc.

[@deepitaaurony]

This needed Lovett’s Chris Christy interview energy, hopefully upgraded with reality star levels of entitlement

[@werewolfjedi38]

I do have an argument to being forth on the workplace part. If you think working over the weekend is the norm, you aren't an hourly worker then dude. If you aren't getting paid for that time, no one is going to work anymore. Crunch kills

[@aslandus]

I'm surprised it's even a controversy to ban phones in school. They didn't even know they would be bad for kids' mental health when I was growing up, but schools banned them anyway because they were distracting.

[@CokedUpLoafOfBread]

*ALSO, there seems to be a presumption of kids all across lacking either competence or integrity if not both, which feels very unfair. I don’t think starting with the assumption that kids are either malicious or incompetent, is going to lead down a path of positivity for them. Which is so fucking bizarre to me, because if you really have to, why are we cutting adults slack? I am certain it is not because it’s just easier to pick on those who have less power/experience, and horrible to restrict their lives, but the rules we impose on them. or even because we are unwilling to take responsibility for the fact that we have royally screwed them into a situation we are also responsible for creating and participating in. That is certainly not the case, I’m sure The burden cannot fall on the younger, if we’ve lived and experienced more, it should always be our burden to be understanding, to give them the benefit of the doubt and finding ways of helping, instead of judging, and penalising them