Jonathan Neville - The Origin of The Mesoamerican Book of Mormon Geography Model

[@paulsavage2157]

Food for thought: when I visited the Palmyra area in 2017, I had some lengthy visits with a member of the Seneca Tribe who was very familiar with the Church's history there. He said (I paraphrase) "You Mormons are kind of funny because you think of the Sacred Grove as being your special place because of Joseph Smith. But that place has always been sacred to our people. It has always been a place where people would go to get visions."

[@deboraholsen2504]

At least God is consistent!

[@jestubbs69]

Yep! The Lord revealed to me that the key to linking the genolgies of the BOM and modern people lays with the Yaqui and Couchimi Indians in particular, a long. With the Hopi, Puebla, Anastasia, Western Cherokee, Paiute.. All the Southwestern USA/ Northwestern Mexico peoples. Spent four hours with my jaw on the ground listening to a Couchimi Indian professor regale me with 2000 years of history and people of Baja California. Ruined everywhere, none explored. No LiDAR. Nada…. I’m calling my quest “Moroni’s Journey”. #DavidicServant

[@MotherErth1]

@@jestubbs69and that entire southwest region lays on the 33rd parallel

[@workingmothercatlover6699]

Joseph Smith's mother went often to that grove to pray. Which is probably where Joseph got the idea of where to pray.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

No

[@monicacreates]

I´m in Sweden so no nationalistic reasons for me to believe that The Book of Mormon took place in North America. I believe that because of what I read in the book itself and from what Joseph said, for me that is quite clear. Not that it matters at all for my testimony since that is based on the book itself and the confirmations I´ve gotten from God about it. And as to how Joseph translated it, what does it matter? It´s really sad though that so many get moved because of these and other things, iif they too all that time and energy into studying (and I mean studying and not only reading) the book they wouldn´t have these problems.

[@denebuxtoo8944]

So true! I agree!

[@MrNirom1]

@monicacreates What did Joseph say specifically?

[@Chardona24]

​​@@MrNirom1 He said there is a room in the Hill Cumorah that had, I repeat had so many gold plated they were about two feet stacked on the floor. They were moved by Joseph. Oliver Cowdry saw them. It was said they filled sevral wagons. Mormon put those plates there. They are the plates of Nephi from which the book of Mormon was abridged from. Maroni buried the gold plates later in another location on the Hill. We know Maroni did not carry the plates of Nephi from Mexico or Central America, because of that, so we know the heartland is where all the Book of Mormon took place. There are photos from f the entrance to the room. There are photos of pieces of the stone box. Do your research. I have done my research As our current prophet said, we will not survive in n the work other people have done to gain knowledge and testamony of the truth. That is what you doing by asked someone else what Joseph Smith said

[@MrNirom1]

@@Chardona24 Yes... I have read about it... but from a different source than where you get yours from. This is what my source said: The so-called Cumorah Cave, which has been described as a room within the hill Cumorah in New York state. In fact, there are at least ten second-hand accounts describing the story of a cave in Cumorah, however, according to Cameron J. Packer (in “Cumorah’s Cave”) Joseph Smith himself did not record the incident (Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004), pp 50-57). The Hill Cumorah in upstate western New York. It is such a gradual incline to a short height that it is hardly remarkable and noticeable when approaching it from any angle except the north The reason Joseph did not (record the incident) was probably because as a drumlin, the hill Cumorah in New York is simply a pile of gravel scraped together by an ancient glacier. Thus the geologic properties of the hill would make a cave technically impossible because the hill is nothing more than a moraine laid down anciently by a glacier in motion, and is comprised of gravel and earth. Therefore, geologically, it is impossible for the hill to have a cave, and all those who have gone in search of the cave have come back empty-handed. Based on Nephi’s experience, “I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot” (1 Nephi 11:1), undoubtedly what was seen by those who recorded a cave, were likely seeing a type of vision. The story of the cave full of plates inside the Hill Cumorah in New York is often given as evidence that it is, indeed, the hill where Mormon hid the plates. Yorgason quotes one version of the story from Brigham Young and alludes to six others collected by Paul T. Smith. Unfortunately, none of the accounts is firsthand. Given that the angel Moroni had retrieved the plates from Joseph several times previously, it is not unreasonable to assume that he was capable of transporting them to a different location than the hill in New York. As Tvedtnes asks, "If they could truly be moved about, why not from Mexico, for example? (John A. Tvedtnes, "Review of Little Known Evidences of the Book of Mormon by Brenton G. Yorgason," FARMS Review of Books 2/1, 1990, pp 258-259). Oliver states that when Joseph and he went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls (Brigham Young, "Trying to be Saints,” June 17, 1877, Journal of Discourses 19:38). (Heber C. Kimball stated in 1856, “How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had, when they went into a cave in the hill Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? There were books piled up on tables, book upon book. Those re- cords this people will yet have, if they accept of the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts, and keep the commandments” (Journal of Discourses, 28 September 1856). In fact, according to Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball President [Heber C.] Kimball talked familiarly to the brethren about Father Smith, [Oliver] Cowdery, and others walking into the hill Cumorah and seeing records upon records piled upon table[s,] they walked from cell to cell and saw the records that were piled up.” (Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 5 May 1867). President Young said in relation to Joseph Smith returning the Plates of the Book of Mormon that he did not return them to the box from which he had received them, but he went into a cave in the hill Cumorah with Oliver Cowdery and deposited those plates upon a table or shelf. In that room were deposited a large amount of gold plates Containing sacred records and when they first visited that Room the sword of Laban was hanging upon the wall and when they last visited it the sword was drawn from the scabbard and laid upon a table and a Messenger who was the keeper of the room informed them that that sword would never be returned to its scabbard until the Kingdom of God was established upon the Earth and until it reigned triumphant over every enemy. Joseph Smith said that Cave contained tons of choice treasures and records (Wilford Woodruff journal, 11 December 1869). “Brigham Young said that when Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were in the cave this third time, they could see its contents more distinctly than before…It was about fifteen feet high and round its sides were ranged boxes of treasure. In the centre was a large stone table empty before, but now piled with similar gold plates, some of which lay scattered on the floor beneath. Formerly the sword of Laban hung on the walls sheathed, but it was now unsheathed and lying across the plates on the table; and One that was with them said it was never to be sheathed until the reign of Righteousness was upon the earth” (Elizabeth Kane Journal, 15 January 1873). Speaking of Brigham Young, Jesse Nathaniel Smith stated in 1874, “I heard him at an evening meeting in Cedar City describe an apartment in the Hill Cumorah that some of the brethren had been permitted to enter. He said there was great wealth in the room in sacred implements, vestments, arms, precious metals and precious stones, more than a six-mule team could draw” (Jesse Nathaniel Smith Journal, February 1874). Brigham Young also said, “I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting…[Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader” (Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877). Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph the Prophet, 1877, tells a similar story, as does David Whitmer, s mentioned earl, 16 August 1878, in an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson; as did Orson Pratt, in The Contributor, September 1882. Certainly, sufficient evidence suggests that to certain early Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, knowledge of a cave associated with the New York hill Cumorah opened before them and allowed them entrance. However, that this was an actual cave within the hill is simply not likely because of the makeup of that hill. The likelihood of it being some type of vision that opened before them as many early Saints, including Nephi as stated earlier and Joseph as he recorded many times, the point is the fact that a cave appeared in an area where caves cannot exist naturally, suggests that the actual appearance was of an object elsewhere that was brought to light within the existence of those present at the time. This in no way diminishes the existence and reality of the cave and its occupants, only that its actual physical existence was not within the hill Cumorah itself, no more than the numerous host of eminent spirits associated with the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution appeared in a physical room in the St. George Temple that could not possibly have held their number. In that event, the room opened up to a vision that Wilford Woodruff had when George Washington and the other Founding Fathers of this great Nation and other eminent men and women appeared to him in vision requesting their Temple work be completed in 1877. As Elder Woodruff stated: “Two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, “You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.” Everyone of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them” (April 1898 General Conference). As mentioned earlier, an interesting interview regarding this cave took place between David Whitmer and P. Wilhelm Poulson, as recorded in the Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878, wherein Paulson asked where the plates were now and David Whitmer replied, “In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.” Poulson then asked “Where is that cave?” to which Whitmer answered, “In the state of New York,” and Poulson asked, “In the Hill Cumorah?” to which Whitmer replied, “No, but not far away from that place.”

[@Famr4evr]

@@MrNirom1this is interesting. I need to read up on this more. Thank you for sharing this information. 👍😊

[@mrmod123]

Neville is the best!!! Thanks for having him on. He makes the most sense to me. Heartland and UandT all day!! 👍🏻

[@zubenelgenubi]

Well, reading and understanding what the BOM say about the geography of the places where it occurred is all that's necessary! Everything else is just opinion!!

[@tgray747]

Great interview, thanks for having him on. He seems like such a chill person who doesn't get all worked up like others do.

[@cherylclute4981]

Great interview with Jonathan Neville…I appreciate all the research he’s done in early church history that supports the Book of Mormon taking place in the Heartland of North America.

[@Ericksosasculptor]

Nope...

[@treeclimberdave]

​@@Ericksosasculptor lol

[@etejan42]

You guys are quickly becoming one of the best Latter-day Saint channels out there, and you've barely gotten started. Keep up the good work!

[@thestickofjoseph]

Thank you, we are doing our best!

[@jshurt1814]

I like the whole theme of this channel being evidences of this Book of Mormon. But the Pastor Jeff episode was awesome too. It shows how good of apologists you two are as well.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Jonathan stay humble when I say this: YOU'RE THE MAN!!! I really appreciate your research methods, accuracy, and your way of sharing.

[@livinthedream4479]

A thought occurred to me a little past midway through that it is important to not worry so much about the geography but the principle of obedience. When any people love and honor God they will be blessed.

[@Heartsinmelody]

Well done guys. Easily your best interview and best content yet. 10/10.

[@MDS53162]

After struggling to listen to the MesoAmerica guys previous interview, clearly littered with deception, its nice to feel the spirit as truth clearly comes from this brother Neville's lips. Thank you

[@Eluzian86]

Here's a thought I had in relation to the confluence of the Mississippi River and Ohio River as the head of the river Sidon. Most people aspousing other geography models will often say "The head of a river is its origins, not a confluence of rivers", but I think I worked out the reason the confluence could be called the head, and would like your thoughts about it: In the Heartland Model the land of Nephi was first established in the Tennessee area after the Nephites separated themselves from the Lamanites between 588 BC - 570 BC. Mosiah left and discovered the Mulekites in Zarahemla between 279 BC - 130 BC. The Mulekites had lived in that area the whole time since their arrival, and since the Mulekites weren't discovered earlier, it'd likely the Nephites had remained around the Tennessee area that whole time as well since their separation from the Lamanites. The Nephites probably new about the confluence of the two rivers but didn't have a reason to go north of the confluence yet for at least 291 years, and so could have referred to the confluence as the head of the river Sidon during that period. The Mulekites likely did not control nor travel to northern Minnesota where Lake Itasca is located because that would be within the north wilderness based off of the Alma 22 description. They also likely didn't travel far enough south to know about that major confluence and so wouldn't have a reason to name it. The tributaries they would know about wouldn't be significant enough to the Mississippi to call those confluences heads. Mosiah arrives in Zarahemla and teaches their people. They are so greatful to him they make him King. At this point, the Nephites would be accustomed to calling that confluence the head of the river Sidon, and the Mulekites simply adopted their lexicon since they probably didn't hav a name for it before then anyway. The Nephites still don't control the area where the head of the Mississippi River is, and so there's no need to go through the trouble of no longer calling that confluence the head of the river. In this way, historically and culturally, the confluence of the Mississippi River and Ohio River could gain and retain the title of "head of the river Sidon".

[@livinthedream4479]

I love this guy. He speaks with clarity and knowledge and I feel the spirit when he speaks.

[@angelalewis3645]

Same for me!

[@janetseamons2757]

So appreciate Jonathan and actually went on Rod Meldrum’s Heartland tour. No question for me that it all happened on THIS LAND!!😊

[@gq5341]

This was a great episode. Have to admit that I love how Jackson listens more than he speaks. Guessing he’s an introvert. Great episode and non-believers watch and absorb! Many books to read.

[@kenkersey6658]

Great interview guys. The messanger David Whitmer encountered on the way to Fayette said ‘I am going across to the Hill Cumorah", this is more evidence that it wasn't just something in the zeitgeist.

[@jeff3olsen]

Thank you gents! Wouldn’t it be so fitting and scripturally prophetic for the wise and learned professors to have this all wrong? 🧐 It should be no surprise based on these verses: - 1 Cor 3:19 - 2 Ne 27:16-21 - 2 Ne 9:28-29

[@Ericksosasculptor]

So yeah it happened in Mesoamerica

[@MrNirom1]

@JEFF3OLSEN 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, “He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.” 16 And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God. 17 And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed. 26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. Anyone understand what endless torment is really?

[@victoriaorme1564]

I really like the way Brother Neville presents his discourse!

[@toddscott6899]

Great interview guys. I have spent my whole life wondering about the geographic discrepancies. In recent years I've been leaning towards the North America theory. Side note, I learned all about the mound builders in elementary school when I was a kid in the early 80's in Dayton NV.

[@johnroot10]

I did too in the 60"s, I knew their culture and dates were similar to the Book of Mormon timeline. I had not read the BOM then but later in life after reading the BOM many times, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Thats all I think about, and have even done some nice road trips to Tennessee, Ohio, Iowa to see the Hopwell Earthworks and muesums

[@JayMackley]

Wonderful interview! Jonathan Neville is so good to talk to and the dynamic you had with him was entertaining and insightful. I am a Heartlander too. Like Jonathan I give priority to the words of Joseph and Oliver as they were by far the closest to the translation process.

[@Called-to-Live]

Easily one of your best interviews (easier to follow, felt sincere, and loved the topic) I'm also writing this at 2am so take it for what you will. Didn't know there are Breastplates and armor in America! Pretty stinking cool!

[@jestubbs69]

Yes, this is the Nephite weapons cache. I have and Idea where to start looking for it. #DavidicServant

[@JoshuaTGray]

Can we see the map that Jonathan Neville made illustrating the embankments at the Hill Cumorah? I think that would be fascinating.

[@johnbushman57]

Interesting discussions with both Mesoamerica and Heartland advocates on this channel. I've read most of the books for both sides. To me it comes down to scriptures that I can't imagine applying to Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, or Honduras: Jesus speaking in 3 Nephi 21:4, 22 2 Nephi 1:5-11 2 Nephi 10-13, 19 Ether 2:8-12 (Moroni) 1 Nephi 13:30 Yes, there is wonderful archeology to see and explore in MesoAmerica, but that doesn't explain these scriptures to me. It seems like why so many Scripture Central and BYU scholars love to push the MesoAmerica theory. The Book of Mormon is true scripture and another testament of Jesus Christ. Not a Joseph Smith fabrication. That is what matters most to me.

[@daleclark7127]

It is pushed because it is the only feasible and plausible model backed up by geographically sound convergences that are requisite for consideration. Two simple things that helped me convert from Heartland to MesoAmerica: 1) volcanic geography doesn’t exist in North America to support the cataclysmic event in third Nephi. 2) Columbus never set foot on North America n which the BoM specifically mentions. Of course there are a myriad more things like population, archeological findings, writing etc. that doesn’t fit in a Heartland model. Also, many of the relics found in the U.S. that have been used as evidence are known frauds. Meldrum and this guest use old cherry picked quotes of old leaders as evidence. Those are not evidence and just opinions.

[@jeff3olsen]

Great verses!

[@johnbushman57]

@daleclark7127 Both sides accuse the other of cherry picking. I'm not "converted" to either position, but because of the scriptures I do lean to the HLM. If it was important to know it would have been made more clear. I'm not challenging your view, just curious what you think of the scriptures I listed, besides reference to Columbus. BTW I just googled it and the Mayan civilization began long before Lehi arrived, but its peak also corresponds to the Nephite timeframe in either MA or HLM theories. Maybe what they call early Mayans were Jaredites before Lehi? IDK

[@daleclark7127]

@@johnbushman57 I did read those scriptures versus and am also quite familiar with these being used to promote the idea the “land” is specifically talking about the United States. Unfortunately, the land is not just the US but is the continent and the promises of freedom are for the whole of the continent. See it is easy to interpret this with a mindset of the way we perceive our country with nostalgia and patriotism. That is just not the right way to approach the geography of the Book of Mormon. To be taken seriously there are other convergences of evidences that need to be considered. Nationalistic tradition can’t put the pieces together and ALL puzzle pieces have to fit. Brant Gardner is an excellent and solid scholar that helped me see the light on this subject. Hey, of course I could be misled too. Nevertheless, it is pretty obvious that the Heartland Model has just too many gaps and at current the mesoamerican model is the best. Thanks for engaging in this subject with me. May the Lord bless you and your family always.

[@johnbushman57]

@daleclark7127 I'm glad we can keep this cordial, unlike other social mediars (I made that up). Sounds like you've made up your mind. I haven't yet, though I don’t lose any sleep over it. And I don't necessarily go by what "solid scholars" say, no matter what or how many initials they have behind their names. The Jonathan Neville on this video also seems very solid. I'm sure you and they who swear by the MAM are good people. So are HLM advocates. I don't lean towards the HLM because of patriotism. That's ridiculous. The ones who got me even considering the HLM were LDS in France. It isn't just some of us Saints in the U.S. who consider the HLM. You said the promises of freedom are for the whole of the continent. North and South America are two continents. Central America and Mexico and the Carribean is usually considered part of North America. So there is that. Is the Promised Land Lehi and Nephi speak of all of North America, Central America, and South America? Could be. I hope so. But you are right that I have a hard time with "this land" for the MAM. Lehi says after he landed in the Promised Land in 2 Nephi 1 "this land shall be a land of liberty... where they shall never be brought down into captivity." Is that true of all of South America like in Venezuala? Or Cuba in the Carribean? But I suppose here Lehi is speaking about his own people, where they can lose it because of iniquity or other nations will come and scatter and smite them. That happened. But in Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi 13:34 where it says, "I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel... these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles...," you don't think that is prophecying about America? Or Ether 2:12, "this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven..." or D&C 10:53, "If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them." So MAM? HLM? It isn't as clear and undebatable as you seem to say. OK, I've rambled enough. One day we will know the truth of all things and I can't wait because I have lots of questions I'd like to have answered, just for fun. None will affect our salvation, though. I haven't made my mind up, but I do wish you and yours the best and thanks for the discussion.

[@TheAnzianoJones]

In none of the geographic models do they take into consideration that the face of the land changed dramatically in 3 Nephi.

[@loudogg73]

I've thought about this too. I feel like any geographic descriptions before 3 Nephi are unreliable.

[@nathancrawley5212]

@@loudogg73 heartland theory does. infact its part on of its main points also why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated and that is explains a lot of the meso evidence

[@fightingfortruth9806]

But the narrow neck of land still persisted before and after 3rd Nephi.

[@TheForgottenMan270]

The single constant that remained the same that Mormon used as a landmark was the narrow neck of land. There is only one location that fits that description before and after the great changes and that's the Isthmus of Darian, now currently known as the Isthmus of Panama. That's the one landmark in the records Mormon possessed for his abridgement that never changed. Then there's the fact that Joseph Smith said that Lehi's group landed south of the Isthmus of Darian (Panama). The Isthmus runs east to west and the body of land south of it is South America. Heartlanders will try to refute it, but it's in the Church archives and not a single prophet since Joseph denounced its authenticity. Which also means it is endorsed by our current leaders as truth by revelation. That's also why in Helaman 6:10 Mormon records that the land south was called Lehi and the land north was called Mulek because it was the place of their landings.

[@stevenbakenhester]

Second😂 keep it up fellas, I love your stuff.

[@michaelzimmerman6647]

Part of inspiration is making things make sense, thanks guys!

[@charriker]

Thank you for this program.

[@lucasogden7046]

Brother Neville used to live in my ward! I'm so excited to see that he's your guest on this episode of your podcast!

[@mccartneydave]

Great interview. Really enjoyed this. Thanks, Paul Brothers!

[@andrewbfrost7021]

The wildest thing in my mind with the heartland model is it means that Moroni snuck back to the same hill Cumorah, right into the land of the people that want to kill him and have been hunting him for a long time, to bury the plates in the same hill. If he did that, he’s a BOSS!

[@Eluzian86]

The Lamanites starting waring with each other after the destruction of the Nephites. I could see them getting so destracted by conflict with each other that he could sneak back in especially after decades of time. It's not like the Lamanites are going to keep up an active searching for him for so long.

[@Eluzian86]

Moroni is still a BOSS either way.

[@vendingdudes]

I'd wager there weren't too many groups sticking around in that area with the smell and negative energy of tens of thousands of slaughtered people mouldering. You'd probably grab all the swords, shields and jewelry you could and migrate far away. There might not have been enemies around for decades, or even centuries.

[@andrewbfrost7021]

@@vendingdudes my only problem with that is that decomposition out in that relatively wet/humid area would not take very long. The vast majority of it would be done within 6 months to a year. Not sure how long it would affect the water supply, but I would be surprised if it were more than 1-2 years.

[@stephend.robison2391]

Thank you for this interview and taking the time to look at all sides of the issues surrounding the Restoration! BTW, you displayed an incorrect picture of "Mormonism Unveiled". You put up a picture John D. Lee's book ("Mormonism Unveiled") not Eber D. Howe's ("Mormonism Unvailed") . Howe's book was published in 1834, John D. Lee's was published in 1877. Brother Neville was referring to E. D. Howe's book.

[@johnroot10]

Thanks for having Jonathon on. Bruce Porter would be a great invite as well. Looking to your podcast when Hannah Stoddard will be on. You also should have Amberli Nelson and especially Rod Meldrum. Topic that needs some discussion on is Zelf's Mound! Keep up the good work guys and thanks for your service.

[@MDS53162]

Spot on

[@daverome1142]

Heartland/Great Lake theory always made the most sense to me.

[@melissamae123]

Such a fun and interesting subject for sure .. thanks for all the various interviews .. I enjoy your Channel

[@Masteroogway40]

43:15 Don Carlos was Named for a local pastor that Lucy mac smith liked to hear speak. A favorite of the families.

[@deserta8953]

This is wonderful. Thank you. So many of the questions I had have been answered.

[@paulmacfarlaneslp9209]

In my mind the linchpin that favors Heartland hypothesis is the ramped mounds in the heartland vs the stepped Mesoamercan architecture because the Law of Moses forbade steps, and the pre-advent Nephites were emphatic proponents of that system.

[@ensenadorjones4224]

The step pyramids at the heights that we know them now were built after 400 ad. These were sacred sites in Book of Mormon times but were added upon by each subsequent ruler until they reached their current height. Then the civilization declined and they were abandoned.

[@urubu715]

"emphatic proponents" of the Law of Moses? Not according to 2 Ne 25:24-25, Mosiah 12 & 13. They kept the law of Moses, but the true believers knew that the law only pointed to Christ. It was the Jews and Deuteronomists in Jerusalem that "looked past the mark" and practically worshipped the law instead of Christ.

[@LatterdaySaintIdeas]

One major point that doesn't seem to get brought up is that Joseph Smith said the stones "Fastened to a breastplate" constituted the Urim and Thummim. No breastplate, no Urim and Thummim. So the idea that he was somehow just using the Nephite stones in a hat would break his definition of Urim and Thummim. Also, Moroni showed the Breastplate to the three witnesses and it is mentioned by God in the D&C as something they would see, which further confirms the idea that the Breastplate was used in translation as part of the Urim and Thummim. The stone in the hat was potentially something else, perhaps a way of checking on the safety of the plates and the Urim and Thummim, but it was not used for translation.

[@BlakeLeSueur-cf5op]

Favorite interview yet as well as Bro. Callister.

[@Greg-McIver]

The biggest issue about "This Land" is in Ether 13 talking about the New Jerusalem. It's to be one specific place. Where is this scripture talking about. It matters. "And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type." Joseph Smith didn't say it was anywhere else but on "This Land" here in Missouri.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

According to Heartlanders, the Jaredites would be up in Canada. So "this land" would not even be the Continental US. It's ironic because that is the same argument they use against the Meso model. Can't have it both ways.

[@johnroberts6695]

There are too many reasons the events the BofM took place in Mesoamerica. Chief of these are 1) no snow or ice; 2) populations; 3) gold and silver deposits; 4) location of Cumorah; 5) size of Cumorah; and 6) poisonous serpents in the narrow neck. I grew up in the eastern United States, and I've seen some monster snow and ice storms in my day, with cars and streets covered with so much snow we had to dress in four layers just to go out, and people couldn't even find their vehicles. And ice storms, so beautiful to behold and yet so treacherous, we had to remain indoors for days. Yet the BofM doesn't mention any of this! Add to this that the BofM talks about hundreds of thousands of people fighting and butchering each other in the senseless final battles. There simply weren't those kind of populations in the American Heartlands. The BofM also talks about them mining gold and silver. In fact, the heartlands' proponents talk about that story where Joseph Smith and his friends going into a cave in Cumorah in which there were many gold plates. So where did all that gold come from? We don't find any places in the American Heartlands where there were _any_ gold and silver deposits! Where are the quarries and deposits? We've yet to find a single one, which is why we've also not found any gold plates with engravings on them in the heartlands. So let's talk a little about Cumorah. The little drumlin in New York is simply not the right size, prominence or location to be the Book of Mormon Cumorah. Also, the Lamanite king knew about it, so it should have been a bit larger, plus, it took Mormon four long years to gather his people to it. At the end of the battle, the Lamanites would have swarmed up and over that hill in mere minutes, killing everyone. And btw, where is the nearby hill Shim? I don't see any hill _near_ the New York Cumorah that could qualify. The NY Cumorah also isn't northward of any narrow neck or passage. There is a narrow neck between the Great Lakes, but the NY hill is south of that, not north as would be required. (See citation below) Finally, let's talk about those poisonous serpents that cut off the passage of the narrow neck of land for several years during the time of the Jaredites. I don't know of any such serpents that could do that in the winter climates of the region. Heartlands advocates say there are the timber rattlesnakes that can survive winters, but they are exceptions. There have never been enough of them to cut off a large passage way. They also tend to live in woodpiles and near rocks and shy by nature. In Mesoamerica, all of the problems mentioned above evaporate. The climate, populations, gold and silver deposits, writings on gold plates, poisonous serpents, Cumorah and Shim candidates (and their proximity to a passage in a narrow neck)---they all become viable. That's why so many of the church's archaeologists, anthropologists, geologists and historians, and many Book of Mormon scholars are homing in on Mesoamerica. Also, many heartlands advocates spend far too much time searching for citations by Joseph Smith and other general authorities. They make the assumption that Smith and these other authorities _knew_ where the Book of Mormon events took place, when none of them ever made that claim! Joseph apparently had many visions of them, but never claimed to know where they took place. I posit that none of them knew precisely where these events happened. All the church authorities have made assumptions, just like the rank and file members, and when any discoveries have been made, either in the Heartlands or Mesoamerica, they saw those discoveries through the lens of the Book of Mormon. If there was any substantial evidences for the Heartlands model, I would jump on that train so fast, but every argument leads to a dead end. I've listened to both sides of the issue, but I just can't get to the Heartlands Model from here. Choose whichever side you will, but if you find yourselves rationalizing your answers, try coming at it again. And if you _ever_ find you have a horse in the race, you've disqualified yourself. It's only human, but I see it in the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists when they argue for they're faiths. They all have horses, and I also admit when it comes to my beliefs and the LDS faith, it's my horse. But I don't have a horse in the Book of Mormon geography race. Find me a better one and I'll drop the Mesoamerican Model like a hot potato. Just as the Book of Mormon geography in the Arabian Peninsula is spot on, we have to use the same means in the Western Hemisphere. We have excavated less than 1% of the Mayan civilization, but we know they had writing systems, a very warm climate, extensive road systems, cement, silver, copper, gold and other metals. They even had a glyph they used extensively in their writings. Translated, it meant, "And it came to pass." They even wrote on gold that was beaten into flat plates, then inscribed. The Mesoamerican region had many people, possibly in the millions. Hundreds of thousands battled at Cumorah and lost their lives. But there's no evidence any of that existed...ever. The heartlands may have been peoples of Nephi who migrated north. They may also have had wars on a smaller scale. They, also, may have kept records, but we don't yet have them; thus Zelph and Onandagus may have been recorded in those records. Christ, when telling the people he had even more people he would visit, may have been referring to them. See the website below: bmaf.org/articles/hill_vigia_cumorah__woolley#:~:text=The%20Book%20of%20Mormon%20says%20that%20Cumorah%20was,the%20land%20northward%20to%20the%20land%20southward%20impossible ..

[@shadowknightgladstay4856]

You miss the black swamp.and Yankees marsh as.a.narow neck of land. With gives rise to the eastern massasauga rattlesnake that realy like the wetlands. Snow happens even in Israel and is not recorded in the Bible so no mention. Of it in the BOM is not a disprove of no snow.

[@johnroberts6695]

​@@shadowknightgladstay4856 ​» The Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, to which you refer, doesn't really qualify as the Book of Mormon's highly-venomous, aggressive serpent, and certainly not one that would clear a narrow neck of land in cold, snowy environs found in Canada and the northern USA. And though it's venomous, it's not really aggressive---certainly not the type that would pursue livestock. That said, there are many fire snakes in Mesoamerica, that are highly aggressive and venomous. The Mojave Green Rattlesnake is one of the absolute worst. No aggressive, venomous snake in Canada or the northern USA can thrive in cold weather. Remember, the serpent has to be aggressive and it has to thrive in cold weather. As for snow in the Bible, yes, it's mentioned many times. Simply do a Google search for “Bible snow” Benaiah killing a lion in a pit on a snowy day in 2 Samuel 23:20. The reason the Bible doesn't mention horrible snow and ice storms is because there were none. When I worked for NIH several years back, I asked one of our contacts in Israel about snow and ice storms there. She told me that yes, they had snow, but they were brief and inconsequential. Storms would drive the snow into drifts that gave it a clean, pure look, but it would come one day and be gone the next. So check it out. If I thought for one minute that the Book of Mormon took place, or could take place, in the northeastern USA, I would happily concede the issue. I just can't get there from here.

[@jorivera9928]

Have you studied the climate 2500 years ago ? I think you’ll find that it was warmer back then, and the lakes larger. There are parakeets in the mounds builders’ mounds. Oh, and the lay out of the land must’ve been drastically changed by the disasters at Christ’s death. Many things were sunk, buried deep in the earth. Unless you can finding a topographical map of 600bc to 400 AD? Are there evidences of the great earthquake and rearranging of the land in meso America ? Do they have “seasons” Also dates don’t match the time lines in Mezo-Am. The architecture is south East Asian style. The DNA shows only Asian in the natives. Theres so much we don’t know. But it’s fun to search, and interesting to study. Ultimately it doesn’t matter. The Book of Mormon is true and the Holy Ghost has born witness to me. I feel their spirit speak from the dust and to my soul. Their message is important for us. I am British and my husband was Mexican American. Yet, I lean toward the heartland evidences, and believe there is much coming forward from hiding. I believe that the ancient people traveled and traded more than we realize. I look forward to the day when we shall know it all and marvel at the hand of God in all His people’s lives. ❤

[@TheCrush333]

You have to look at the text and what Joseph Smith said. The issue that i have is that the text tells you exactly how long it took to get to different places. Both the Heartland model and meso has too large an area. it was a very specific area. There are other theories that it took place on a peninsula around Boston or Deleware/Maryland is a good option.

[@TheForgottenMan270]

The areas aren't too small. The thing is is that the records primarily stayed within the borders of the Nephrite nation, but Mormon did say that the whole face of the land north and south, so both North and South America, was filled with people. But we know there were many other records besides the two records of Nephi that were kept. The problem with the Heartland model is that geographically nothing works and it's easy to expose as to why it doesn't work. The problem with the Meso America model is that it's too restrictive. I personally don't support either model and never will. Both parties cherry pick to try to prove themselves right. I know where Lehi's landing was approximately. I'm familiar as to where about everything took place during the time of the Book of Mormon. My primary source is the Book of Mormon and anything else I found either reinforces what I learned or corrects what I got wrong. And that's the problem with Heartland and Meso America, both are so convinced that they're right that they're both unwilling to open their minds to the possibility of being wrong; and they also misinterpret what is said by Joseph and others because it fits their narrative. I suggest that you walk away from both. I've taken very little time to learn about either, but what I do find is generally incorrect.

[@intheknow9794]

I love love this interview. You guys do so much good, so glad to see your honesty and humility as we learn together. Jonathan Nevel is amazing, he may have used to word 'appalling' (seer stone), I kinda cringed but understand what he meant..dont take it personally:) I get what you're saying.

[@hollyward549]

I have a really old book that's written by Arthur B Phillips and Hyrum O Smith that was edited by Frederick M Smith called Rules of Order. It was published around 1839 around there. It would be great to get some more information about it, but thought it was interesting

[@livingmombirth4005]

Good job guys! Keep up the good work!

[@establishingzion688]

Great interview, gentlemen! Great as always! Keep up the great work

[@brucelloyd7496]

At about 18:00 Neville says JS III became President of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the 1850s. Actually, it was 6 April 1860.

[@royperkins28]

This is awesome guys. God bless you both

[@paulsavage2157]

I understood that there was a play or a book called "Don Carlos" (same subject as the later opera) that was very popular in early America that inspired the use of the name.

[@kdeltatube]

Grrat job. I like how you guys prrsent and the way Neville presents is in the same kind manner.

[@alatterdaysaintonfire5643]

When you were talking about the population of the people in the Book of Mormon, I am reminded of our current history. Just looking at Los Angeles which was established in the 1800’s and the population is near or about 8,000,000. It would be very likely that the population described in the Book is very probable.

[@AmericanFire33]

It wasn’t temples you couldn’t build our of stone, it was the paschal altar. At any rate, the Hopewellian platform mound with one ramp and no steps to the top in unique in Archeology. Mounds tended to have steps to the top both before and after the woodland era. It amazes me that this can be related to something Moses said about building an altar for Passover.

[@brucelloyd7496]

At 24:05 Neville says Lucy Mack Smith was quoted 137 times in Saints [Vol 1]. Actually, it was 128 times.

[@paulblack1799]

Prophets, priests and 'the learned' have always been at odds, but the only category whose goal is to march us up the mountain to walk with God is the prophets.

[@hollyward549]

24:30 why do we not talk about comorah?

[@cognitiveresonance339]

The example of a heartlander strawman was itself a strawman. Probably an unintentional conflation of 2 points. Nobody said you can't build a temple out of hewn stone. The Old Testament says explicitly that you can't build an ALTAR out of hewn stone. It also says there can't be any stairs going up to the altar. All Meso temples have stairs and hewn stone altars.

[@establishingzion688]

Strawmanning the strawman

[@user-ch9jo8mi7m]

I think both the meso and heartland theories are correct. Helaman 3: 3-5 explains that they had traveled "an exceedingly great distance" northward to a land of " large bodies of water and many rivers" this IMO matches exactly to the great lakes region.

[@nathancrawley5212]

why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated and that is explains a lot of the meso evidence. this matches the dating

[@vendingdudes]

​@@nathancrawley5212this. In addition, there's no reason not to think that the Americas, everywhere, already had peoples settled in from anywhere. For example, the Mayans could have started as a lost Ten Tribe remnant, that had some Lamanites join them and influence their culture to become what we recognize now as Mayans. Move, shift, integrate, replenish, rise and fall, repeat. Anasazi, Olmecs, Aztecs, Incas, could all have roots from anywhere, really. The fact an ancient culture might show indications of Christian or Jaredite or Nephite influence doesn't prove a whole lot about its beginning.

[@spencerdaniels8762]

@@vendingdudesI have thought along these lines too. But would it be possible that these remnants also had their own prophets and history and their own version of the Book of Mormon that we don’t know about? And extend that even further to South America. And far East Asia. All corners of the earth. All with their own prophets and plates. We were only given the Book of Mormon, but could there be other records out there that we don’t know about? Just a thought.

[@Shannon-xg2gl]

The Maya were of Asian origin DNA has confirmed. Scholars match the ruins down there with Hindu temples in Malaysia

[@stever808]

Given Jacob’s parable of the olive tree, it makes sense that Christ visited Meso America, Peru and North America.

[@andrewreil]

Wait, Jacob is quoting a prophet from the brass plates from Israel

[@apologetiquesinvestigations]

^_^ What do you think about the African race ? Brigham Young said : Shall I tell you THE LAW OF GOD in regard to THE AFRICAN RACE ? If the white man who BELONGS TO THE CHOSEN SEED mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under THE LAW OF GOD, is DEATH ON THE SPOT. This will ALWAYS be so. Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 10:110-111) Speech in March 8, 1863. Brigham Young said : You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, uncouth, uncomely, DISAGREEABLE and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the INTELLIGENCE that is generaly bestowed upon mankind... Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a TERMINATION to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a MARK UPON HIM, which is the FLAT NOSE and BLACK SKIN. Brigham Young ( Journal of Discourses volume 7: p.290) Speech in 1863. Do you agree with Brigham Young here ? And Is it TRUTHLY from God ?

[@danieldunbar2956]

Great job guys!

[@mgrose1972]

And, by the way...this was a FIRE interview. Loved it!

[@jaylilburn391]

What fire? When were they discussing fire?

[@mgrose1972]

Google it. 😂

[@shireecox122]

I ‘ve not listened to this yet. But I have so much going on in my head about this subject. I believe the Book of Mormon took place in both North and South America. I mean there wasn’t an imaginary boarder line back in the day, as far as we know, right? So what’s the big deal? Why are we arguing over this? There’s evidences in both places. I personally agree that the Heartland theory fits the Nephites best, but that doesn’t negate the Meso theory. There were different groups of people who came to the “Americas”. They split, mixed, moved around, and grew. What do people do when their families grow? They spread out. They look for places to grow crops and herds. Over a 2000 plus period of time, they very easily could have covered the whole land mass. So how about we get over ourselves, and realize there’s room for all of our theories. Which brings me to my last gripe. All of these theories are jut that, THEORIES. The only thing any of us can know 100% for sure is, that the Book of Mormon happened somewhere on the American continent. We can know it’s true scripture through the Holy Ghost. And these things are all that really matter. Thanks

[@thestickofjoseph]

Amen!

[@heberfrank8664]

Since BoM people came north in Hagoth's ships, then evidence of the BoM will be found in Meso and North America. But I still find the Andes model where the East Sea became the Amazon basin at the time of Christ as the Andes rose, to be the model best supported by the BoM text. 2bc.info/Misc/Evidences.pdf

[@PascalDupont561]

I heard that there is no evidence slag (smelting) in Meso but there is in the Tennessee and Ohio valleys.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

From the text, it Hass to have occurred in a limited, geography model. Take your pic. As for me, due to the statements of Joseph Smith and other early profits and the text itself end, the history of the Hopewell and Adena people, it seems very clear to me Where the book of Mormon took place. Our academics have confused the narrative and swayed public opinion sadly.

[@csluau5913]

Good for you, for saying how you feel. You are making a very good point… The contention needs to stop. I agree with you 100% about the contention needing to stop. The gospel principles would dictate that we do not need to contend with one another about these things because in fact, Christ appeared in North America, Central America, and South America at different times repeatedly. He talked many of the peoples, his principles and precepts of the gospel. all you have to do is do a little bit of research and read about the legends and myths and stories that have been carried down through generations by these people and their descendants That speak of Quetzalcoatl, Viracocha, the descending God, the be God, the storm, God, the staff, God, the great white brother, the peacemaker, red horn, the list goes on and on. Where it really gets interesting is when you start hearing stories about three brothers, or the hero Twins. Then you see those stories translated over into the early and middle Mississippian cultural. Stories. The truth is, the Lord always had a back up plan. He had to wait until the new pipes were destroyed, before he could send his apostles into the other Americas to the other people who were waiting to be taught. This is not actually recorded in the plates given to Marone, but I’m willing to bet it is written down somewhere else, and indeed it is. Unfortunately, a lot of the Codices were destroyed. So the oral tradition carries on. The Aztecs, Toltec’s, Incas, Mayans, and many other peoples met Christ. So you are correct. All the people moving around also happens. Many of the modern Native American, tribes or nations today will tell you that their ancestors left from a different part of, the land because of battles or wars or disagreements which were constantly happening. They fled to get away from this. In particular, I’ve heard at least five different tribes say these things, including the Navajo. So that is also correct. Nothing is what it seems. Modern archaeologists, and anthropologists think they have many of the answers but sadly this is not necessarily true. In time the truth will come out, but in the meantime, I agree with you 100% about the contention, and the arguing back-and-forth, needing to be stopped.

[@drstevendsmith11]

@thestickofjoseph When they mention that letter from Joseph to Emma as the only time that Joseph mentions that this is the land of the Nephites, why does no one ever mention letter #7 that Joseph dictated to Oliver Cowdry? And then had it published in the papers twice for the saints to read? I'm confused why that is never mentioned by apologetics as evidence? Do you have any insights to the reasons why letter #7 is never mentioned?

[@heartfacingupward]

When I was a young wart hog, in the 70's I was exposed only to the old hatters version of what was taking place. Zion would be gathered in Missouri, the Hill Cumorah was without question in New York. It was commonly discussed about the repository and what Joseph Smith saw when he first entered it. The repository was in the Hill Cumorah in New York. Then things changed with the propaganda referring to the South American temples and so forth. The new model took off like a plaque of small pox. Sure things can be appealing to the mind and stimulating for thought but it doesn't equal the truth. It equals presumption. For me, my testimony is squarely on a spiritual answer provided in a way that it can not be denied. Men create confusion and cause people to question themselves even their own testimonies. The spirit will not lie, but lies can confuse the mortal mind. The two creatures of our soul, that Paul refers to in Corinthians is always at odds until our spirt aligns with the mind and will of God. Then the flesh is overcome. One thing to remember, we are not our mind. We are the entity that controls and operates it. There are two influences that press upon it. Divine and mortal. Great presentation.

[@deboraholsen2504]

…like a plague of small pox

[@rconger24]

"A young warthog" :) .

[@brendahelquist8823]

Thank you very Much!

[@davidmickelle7326]

I thought the reference of military units at the last battles was a good insight...not sure how i feel about suggesting it was only a reflection of lost battles to present moment for Moroni and Mormon...there definitely was some reflection so maybe...im ok with it being a reflection and current count with all the hilltop areas snd the passing over of Mormon to carry on finishing other battles...it seems there are more than enough hilltops in the areas to stage the hundreds of thousands and it would set up strong holds and pinch points and places of supporting crossfire which seems to be a common element of strategy for the Hopewell anyhow

[@gokuxt1]

i had something similar happening to me when i wrote to book of Mormon central sharing my views on a south America model. i got a replied telling me to wait for their reply back after my theories were studied by their research team.

[@nathancrawley5212]

why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated and that would explain a lot of the meso evidence as nothing i have seen can't be explained by cultural migration.

[@stevemayfield6818]

Very interesting and well explained. My only question or hang up I have with the NY/N.America theory is the narrow neck of land. I still can't wrap my head around where that would be in N. America.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Exactly.

[@Shannon-xg2gl]

Near Niagra falls. The Great Lakes were the east an west seas

[@esm1817]

I think Wayne May covered that when he was interviewed, but I don't remember what he said. 😅

[@stevemayfield6818]

@@esm1817 yes he talked about the water of the Great Lakes having been broader and more substantial marshes if I'm remembering correctly.

[@flindersmj]

Wayne May talks about the "Great Black Swamp" that covered a large part of Ohio and Indiana., basically making Lake Erie much larger back then. If Fort Wayne was "under water" back then, it would have been just over 100 miles between Lake Erie and Lake Michigan. It seems to me that 100 miles is about "1 1/2 days journey for a Nephite".

[@Irvingdector]

Thanks for another amazing episode

[@freddyches485]

What do you think of the account of Benjamin Benson and his vision of Joseph Smith receiving the plates 20 years prior to his birth. Please find this account in The Joseph Smith Papers?

[@zandersturgill]

Man, here's the big problem with Neville. He says around 1:04:38 that "those guys are saying the prophets are wrong." He's said this a lot in the past. Just read through his blogs and see how much he says how the Church History Departement is teaching people to disbelieve the prophets. Or how BYU is teaching people to disbelieve the prophets. Or how Book of Mormon Central, or the Ensign, or how all these specific people or entities (many of which are owned by the Church) are "teaching people to not believe the prophets." What kind of rhetoric is that? What does that cause diehard heartlanders to think about others? About the modern Church? It's not just the rhetoric. It's that the argument falls apart. He cherry picks prophets. So what's his response to modern prophets like Howard W. Hunter who said "in the heart of the Mayan area of Mesoamerica, which has such great significance in the Book of Mormon history.”. Or President Hinckley who said the Chichén Itzá ruins are those of the children of Lehi or that Guatemalans have the blood of Lehi. Or even President Nelson when he says the ruins of Mesoamerica testify of Christ, or that the Book of Mormon details Christ's visit to Brazil. I'm not using these quotes to prove the Mesoamerican theory. I'm using them to show how flawed Nevilles logic is. And it becomes less of a logical argument as much as a lawyers phrase to win over the audience. We all know Saints love Joseph Smith and so when presented with things with this rhetoric, it's a bit deceptive. What is Neville implying when he suggests if you don't believe his interpretation of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowedry that you're teaching people to not believe in the prophets? Were these modern prophets wrong? Are they teaching people to not believe Joseph Smith and Oliver. Neville is the one cherry picking the quotes here. We have evidence that Oliver Cowdery told a newspaper that Lehi landed in Chili. But he will make excuses for this and everything else. And it trends on dangerous ground. It puts dead prophets above modern prophets. It's easy to twist Joseph's words to whatever we want it to be, because he's not here to defend himself. It causes people to wonder, "Is the Church History Department leading people astray?" Is it any wonder the Church History Department had to issue a statement directed at Heartlanders, specifically Nevilles arguements. Is it any wonder why Heartland leaders aren't taken seriously at academic conferences, or even within the Church. I mean, the Church published their DNA essay which directly goes against everything Meldrum is claiming. The Church has published directly how the Michigan Relics are hoaxes. The Church has published how Joseph Smith had opinions but they're not doctrine. Elder Ballard asked us to know these essays, "like the back of your hand." In any case. I guess the main message here should be to trust our modern Church leaders. Trust the academic content they are putting out. The departments they are in charge of. Sure, no department is perfect. But its obvious the Church is promoting logical, academic, faithful research. It's clear where and who they are getting their sources from. Who they trust. It's clear who they are supporting.

[@jeremycollins1068]

There have been people very high in the church history department that absolutely wanted to secularize church history. Very high. Secularize as in interpret all of the history completely absent of the spirit of prophecy.

[@truthseeker922]

​@@jeremycollins1068, yes this does appear to be the case as Hannah Stoddard points out in her books. I have to say though, I also take issue with Neville's repeated comment about those who propose the Meso American Model as either not believing the prophets, or lying, or misleading the people. If he says we should have charity as well as clarity, then stop saying stuff like, "Well, do you believe Joseph Smith or not?" It sounds condescending. I've followed the MAM for years but I'm open to other theories if new, credible information, arguments or evidence can be put forth. I've been through most of this interview and still not heard an explanation for the narrow neck of land or how a Nephite could walk the stretch of land between the two seas in a day. Can someone from the HLM please give me an explanation about that?! Honestly, I'm keen to hear the explanation, I won't talk down to you, I'm just frustrated that this hasn't been brought up.

[@truthseeker922]

It's very frustrating to hear Neville say things like "Well, do you believe Joseph or not?" and still talk about having charity in these discussions. He talks in this fashion in other interviews as well and it comes across as condescending. I don't like it. I lean towards the MAM but happy to consider another point of view but without being spoken down to. I'm sure Neville is a good guy and he points out some interesting arguments, just cut out the condescension.

[@danieldunbar2956]

Great discussion!

[@furydoo]

The most beautiful thing is that God promised these prophets of old, a land choice above all others. The prophets described in the 70s as Brother Neville mentioned, that the saints are to gather in their own countries, and the two are synonymous. Wherever Saints can practice their beliefs opennly and without persecution, is choice. This world is our Lord's creation, and it is choice above all others.

[@Eluzian86]

I think people trying to estimate distances in The Book of Mormon aren't taking all factors into account from the script itself in their estimations. For example Alma's people are estimated by scholars to have only traveled about 88 miles in 8 days (Mosiah 23:1-5). However, an important detail I believed they missed was the line, "...And the Lord did strengthen them, that the people of King Noah could not overtake them...". They estimated the normal travel time a people would have when bringing their flocks and herds with them, at 11 miles per day. That is a reasonable estimate under normal circumstances, but the text indicates God blessed them with greater speed and endurance so they could outrun their pursuers. The people of Noah would likely be pursuing at forced march speed, which would be 20 - 30 miles per day. Therefore, I believe Alma's people would have had to travel a minimum of 21 miles per day to outrun their pursuers. That means they likely traveled between 168 - 240 miles than 88. As far as the distance traveled in the 13 day period in Mosiah 24:17-25, the Lord stopped their pursuers in the valley of Alma, so they could travel during the 12 day period at normal speed. Their speed could have been 8 - 15 miles per day. That would be a distance of 104 - 195 miles. If their travels were directed toward Zarahemla for both travel periods, then Zarahemla would be between 272 - 435 miles from the Waters of Mormon. That distance would fit the Heartland Model. If Big Spring, Missouri is the Waters of Mormon and Zarahemla is across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo, Illinois, then that gives a distance of 320 miles. If the people of Alma traveled 11 miles per day in the 13 day period, then the Lord would have strengthened them to travel approximately 22 miles a day in the 8 day period. King Noah's people would likely be irregular unlike the regular Roman infantry that could do the 30 miles per day pace, so it would make sense if they could only do about 20 miles per day. 22 miles per day would be just enough to outrun them, which is all that would be needed. I think a reevaluation of the text by the scholars would be warranted, because it hurts our chances of finding the correct location if our estimates could be off by half their actual distance.

[@deannawendt146]

If Joseph used a seer stone to translate why didn’t Moroni take it back when Joseph lost the ability to translate or refer to the stone?

[@deboraholsen2504]

Because his temporary inability to translate was not based on the stone at that point! Rather, it was God who caused the stone to be temporarily “useless”. Plus, Joseph still needed the stone to translate the remainder of what was to be the Book of Mormon. …Why is this not obvious to you?

[@strplngwarriormom]

I think the simple reason so many people all around the globe identify with the story of the Book of Mormon (specifically 3 Nephi) - is because it taps into an ancient memory in our DNA - when the Savior visited his "other" other sheep. It taps into our ancestors and their desires to accept the gospel and have their work done in Temples.

[@philandrews2860]

Thanks for interviewing Jonathan Neville. It's great to hear all different opinions on this topic. It will be interesting to hear his geographic model in part2. I've been wondering also: when are you going to do part 2 of Kirk Magleby's interview? He also never got a chance the describe the Mesoamerican model. I agree with some of Jonathan's views, however there are a few that I'd like to comment on: I'm of the opinion that Moroni didn't reveal to Joseph Smith the exact location of the major Book of Mormon events, and that Joseph, like other early church leaders, just automatically assumed that the events took place not that far from the hill where he got the plates, or at least within the general frame of that area of North America. I can also see why Moroni would have chosen to not reveal the exact physical locations in the book to Joseph Smith. If he had, then I think it would have resulted in too much physical evidence of the book at such an early stage in the church's history, which would defeat much of the reason for having it be chiefly a matter of faith, rather than wholly relying on physical evidence. I believe we are finding the physical evidence, bit by bit, over time, and that having that much information revealed that early on would have been counterproductive to the idea of faith being a primary requirement in the book's purposes. So even with the idea that Oliver Cowdery was really certain of his opinions on the Book of Mormon events taking place in the eastern USA, he could have been totally convinced of an idea that was incorrect. At any rate, Joseph never made any definite statement to that effect, which indicates to me that either he didn't know for certain, or else if he did know, he wasn't supposed to reveal these exact locations. I think the former makes more sense. Regarding the Mesoamerican theory beginning with Mr. Winchester and then later with the RLDS folks, and then with Orson and Parley Pratt, that Jonathan mentioned: I think that theory would have come up sooner or later as it seems to be a logical conclusion to make when considering the narrow neck of land and also a limited geography model, as well as the high civilization and large population concentration found there anciently. So I think even if Mr. Winchester and the early RLDS folks hadn't come up with it, it would have come up anyhow, perhaps even around the same time. I'm also of the opinion that even though I think the main events transpired in Mesoamerica, that during Book of Mormon times and afterwards, there were many migrations of peoples mentioned in the BofM to what is now the USA, which could explain Joseph Smith being inspired to say that descendants of the Lamanites were present in the eastern USA. I also think that Moroni was part of one such migration (perhaps by himself). It's also very possible that he buried the plates in NY state as a resurrected being, in anticipation of Joseph Smith being there to find them.

[@AmericanFire33]

Google the 48th parallel artifacts and Karst topography of Missouri and you will have wonderful explanations of the Nephite storm.

[@deerjerkydave]

Dr. John Lund did an in depth language analysis of the Times and Seasons editorial and concluded it was written by Joseph Smith. All other potential authors were compared and on all tests Joseph emerges as the author. For example it uses "a going" which is something Joseph would say but none of the other potential authors used this type of language.

[@bryanl.taylor6249]

New Madrid Earthquake Museum… not jut sand in sand blows but noxious gases (methane, etc.) that blew when compressed by earthquake. Whole face of land changed, Mississippi River blocked temporarily, new lakes formed, some villages / islands disappeared… look up this museum and read the accounts…

[@xirtus]

guadalajara to new york is 954 hours walking. if he walked about 4 hours a day it would take him 240 days. Even if he could only walk during one season a year and had to camp for 3 seasons out of the year, It's still plausible that he would reach New York with 5 years.

[@rconger24]

And how about the "wagon loads of records" for this 954 hour trek? And is Guadalajara far enough?

[@terihuling2943]

Where can we find the Letters that were discussed. I’m not seeing it in the descriptions?

[@fightingfortruth9806]

We know that Nephi's family was a descendant of Joseph of Egypt, of the northern tribes where Ephraim and Manesseh's tribe ruled. Ephraim was an Egyptian leader after his father's rule. We also know that they spoke and wrote in reformed Egyptian. So Egypt had a huge effect on the Nephites and it would have made sense for them to build stone towers and structures similar to Egyptian pyramids. They knew their design from their own history. The Lamanites only lived in tents, so they wouldn't have been responsible for building the Mesoamerican pyramids.

[@jeffwhipple2658]

Except that the timing is wrong. Chichen Itza (shown in the background of the painting with Christ visiting BofM people) was at best built as early as 600 AD. Also, the Mayan pyramids best represent Hindu temples from India. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between the Mayan and Hindu religious beliefs.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

That is inaccurate Mayan pyramids date back hundreds of years BC. Pyramids look very similar around the world because Jacob's descendants spread everywhere after the Exodus. They all lived in Egypt and saw the pyramids. Remember that God promised Jacob's seed to spread upon the whole earth.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

European Caucasians are originally called Indo-Europeans because they stretched all the way from Ireland to India, covering the North and South Mediterranean. Their origin is the Levant region of the Middle East. Do you know the original meaning of Iran? Look it up.

[@avoice423]

Joseph was married to an Egyptian woman, Ephram and Manassah We are half Egyptian

[@Shannon-xg2gl]

There are no pyramids in the Holy Land that I know about.

[@A_Wood_Hunt]

I'm a Heartland believer except when it comes to blossoming as a rose. That has been fulfilled in Mexico and South America for sure, and the few native Americans I know - but not in big numbers

[@MarkHigbee]

Is it possible the blossoming like a rose hasn't happened yet?

[@grayman7208]

1:34:50 lol i was a ranger instructor in the late 80's and wore jeans and flip flops )

[@veritasrestituta812]

You guys really got read the new Madrid earthquake account you’ll be blown away

[@brucelloyd7496]

At 24:34 the book, Mormonism Unvailed [sic] is mentioned and then a few seconds later, the wrong book with a similar name about John Dee Lee (Unveiled spelled correctly) is displayed on the screen. Apparently, The Stick of Joseph hosts are not familiar with Eber D. Howe's 1834 book. Thanks for doing this interview! Knowing the History of 1 or 2 of about 150 documented Book of Mormon Geography models is very helpful for those who are still trying to sort out the facts. I switched from Mesoamerica to the Heartland about 7 or 8 years ago and never looked back. The people who believe in the Heartland model are NOT in Perfect agreement on every detail and that is OK. However, in a few months, we'll be studying the Book of Mormon. My understanding and comprehension of the events of the Book of Mormon will be so much clearer to me compared to a BYU fantasy map. There are over 500 geographical references in the Book of Mormon. In 87 B.C., we read about the Amlicite and Lamanite battle with Alma and the Nephites in Alma Chapter 2, near the City of Zarahemla. It began at the Hill Amnihu (east of the river Sidon) north of Nauvoo and continued south past Nauvoo through the Valley of Gideon where Alma's army camped for the night. Alma sent out spies to track the movements of the Amlicite army. Early the next morning the spies returned and Alma was concerned that the Amlicites had joined with the Lamanites. As Alma's army was crossing the river Sidon from east to west, the Amlicites charged into the river from the west bank and continued the battle. Losing badly, the Amlicite and Lamanite armies retreated to the Wilderness of Hermounts seeking shelter and water. I believe the river crossing was at present day Sandusky, Iowa where Lamalees Creek intersected the river Sidon (Mississippi). The creek would have cut a groove in the west bank of the river Sidon and created a natural narrow entrance into the river and an exit point out of the river. As the bodies piled up in the groove, an impediment or barricade at the exit point was created. Alma's army had to throw the dead soldiers into the river Sidon to make room to cross. If there were many exit points, Alma's army could have easily exited the river anywhere along the west bank. Who knows how high and steep the west bank of the river Sidon was 2100 years ago? To get some idea, go downstream about 4 miles to Keokuk, Iowa where the bank is about 125 feet tall. We have bible and church history maps which greatly enhance our understanding of different events. I can't wait for the day when we have maps for the Book of Mormon! Read my article in Wayne May's March 2023 Land of Promise Magazine. It is called Book of Mormon Geography: It's all about the water.

[@Ericksosasculptor]

We stand with Mesoamerica !

[@brucelloyd7496]

@@Ericksosasculptor You and everyone else are welcome to believe in any of the 150 Book of Mormon Geography Models. The church claims to be neutral on geography, but allows and encourages the many appendages of the church to continue to promote the Mesoamerican model. Some of these organizations include: CES, BYU, Book of Mormon Central (now Scripture Central), ScripturePlus, phone and Kindle App, FAIR, Meridian Magazine, LDS Living Magazine, Interpreter Foundation, Come Follow Me Book of Mormon 2020 and 2024 (1/3 of the artwork promotes the Mesoamerican model), church magazines, etc.). I'm going to share with you the Journal of John Morris King. His 68-page handwritten Journal is located in the Church History Library in SLC, UT. You'll probably never hear this account in General Conference or a Sunday School Class unless you tell it. In 1839, John Morris King (recent convert) and others were travelling from Kirtland, OH to Far West, Missouri. Here is an extract from his journal. “I witnessed several testimonies in the course of this winter. On the 20th of March, my brother Lorenzo Don died, aged 21 years 9 months, and 7 days. He being the first of my father's family that had laid down their bodies in the dust out of 11 children. In the course of this winter, Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the last days, left for the State of Missouri, and sent back a letter for the church to gather up in haste and be at peace amongst their selfs (selves) or there would be no safety for them. I therefore began to prepare to leave the following Spring. In the course of the winter, I witnessed the acts of some, and the dissensions of many who had once stood high in the Priesthood, yet I felt a desire to persevere in the principles that I had embraced, and for this intent, on the 8th of June 1839 I with some others started for Far West in the State of Missouri, county of Caldwell. We traveled by the way of Cleveland and Norwalk until we arrived at West Union where we stopped for a short time to work. Here I will state that I received a great testimony of the Book of Mormon, it being a disinterested testimony. A woman by the name of Dils who had been a Sutton when a girl after inquiring who we were and where we were going. She stated that she never had seen but one Mormon and he passed by and she did not hear him speak. Yet she believed that this land had once been inhabited by an intelligent people. She said her father was a stone cutter and lived on the Little Miami River in Ohio. She was a girl. One day when he was quarrying stone he found, in a bed of rock, all the bones of a man's body which he fetched home and put them under his bed. On the following morning he told his family that the man to whom the bones belonged to came to the side of his bed during the night. The man had told him his age and that he belonged to a people that were scattered from the tower of babel when the Lord confounded the language, and that they were brought to this land and they became a numerous people and they began to have contentions amongst them and so in those days the Lord raised up a prophet and prophisied that if they did not cease their fighting that he only should be left of all the people in the land, and that it did prove so that they were all slain except himself and the other leader, and he finally overcame him and tarried until another people came and found him and he lived with them nine moons and died and they buried him there where he had found his bones. This testimony came about 15 or 20 years before the book of mormon came forth.” This journal entry about Coriantumr's bones proves that the events of the Book of Mormon happened in ancient America and NOT Mesoamerica. Why are we still wasting time and money in Mesoamerica? Because the scholars are full of pride and don't want to admit that they were wrong.

[@Golden_red6]

I’d love to know if it’s true that Joseph Smiths brother Alvin and even Joseph himself are buried on Hopewell mounds. I went to Palmyra and saw Alvin’s grave and it really does look like a mound.

[@StandforTruth712]

Before interviewing Hannah Stoddard do you plan on reading her books "Faith Crisis #1 We were not Betrayed"; Faith Crisis #2 Behind Closed Doors" and "Seer Stone vs. URIM &Thummin"? After reading these books, and James Lucas and Jonathan Neville's book "By means of the Urim & Thummin" I an very concerned about the outcome of the newly commissioned biography of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Saints series recently published by the church is tainted.

[@dannyd7426]

Watching the first interview, the one with the meso guy, it sounded more like you both were meso guys. Watching the Wayne May interview, it sounded a little like you were on the fence. With this one, you outright said part of the meso theory doesn’t make sense. 😊 I like the idea of no more contention and a straight up comparison… good stuff, guys!

[@rconger24]

Wayne May also started out "a meso guy". We all did. But now fir for many of us, the Heartland seems right.

[@ja-kaz]

Ok can someone explain to me the difference between the Urim and Thummim and seer stones or are we talking about the same thing?

[@redfightblue]

That's an extremely complex subject and the answers you'll get depend on who you ask. In general, most people agree that the Urim and Thummim are 2 glass stones that are mentioned in the Book of Mormon as the Nephite Interpreters. These 2 stones were in the stone box with the Gold Plates and placed there for the purpose of translating the Book of Mormon. They can be mounted into a frame and attached to a breastplate like reading glasses. It is basically just Martin Harris that claimed Joseph Smith used these 2 stones to translate the Book of Mormon during the first 119 pages that were lost and are not part of the Book of Mormon today. The Seer Stone is different. The Seer stone was discovered by Joseph Smith while digging a well. It is not ancient and not used by the Nephites. Some witnesses also claim this is the stone Joseph Smith placed in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon. The modern LDS Church has always had this stone and recently published pictures of it.

[@ja-kaz]

@@redfightblue ok thanks. So I guess the Urim and Thummim were used in conjunction with the breast plates? And the seer stone are more of a tool used in folk lore? You would think after 47 years as a LDS member I would know this haha

[@jeremycollins1068]

Definitely different. 100% different.

[@UVJ_Scott]

The only way we would know where Cumorah is/was is if Moroni told Joseph and there is no first hand evidence for that. I served my mission in upper state New York and was adopted into the Cattaraugus tribe which is the first place missionaries were sent to take the gospel to the Lamanites. Although I believe many native Americans are descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples I also believe Central America is the geographical location for the Book of Mormon. Here’s why. Christ prophesied that the descendants of the Lamanites “shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.” No North American Indians are fulfilling that prophecy, but people coming from Mexico, Central and South America are or soon will be in a position to do that.

[@marlenewellard]

We adopted two children from Colombia...granted not Mesoamerica but close. They came to us Catholics but were later baptized and sealed to us. They are lions. Their spirits are bigger than most any people I have ever met.

And yet the DNA says north east USA indians are from the middle-east and the central Americans are not. And Joseph said it was the American Indians.

[@carolallen662]

I am a believer in North America being Book of Mormon country.

[@deannawendt146]

Love this!!

[@TheJanesaw]

Have u guys ever read marvelous work and a wonder? This use to part of the “missionary library”. If you haven’t read chapter 8. Le grand (an apostle) fully supports the America natives as Lamanites and briefly mentions the translations. He keeps it simple and sweet, no mention of stone in the hat. People think the stone in the hat is “New” info, it isn’t it was just dismissed for over 100 years. Maybe they were all correct, and we’re so worried about being accepted, buy into the language of our oppressors.

[@workingmothercatlover6699]

The Fighting Preacher was Elder Bean. I forgot his first name. I'm sure my first seminary teacher is a descendant of him. His last name was also Bean.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

In terms of percentage and quantity, are more missionaries going to Latin America or North American Indian Reservations? In terms of baptisms, how many north American Indians have been baptized versus Central and South American? I think it is pretty obvious that far more are visiting and converting the native descended people south of the border. In which case, the promise of D&C 3:16-20 is being fulfilled to the Lamanites.

[@nathancrawley5212]

why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated; and it would explain a lot of the meso evidence

[@bradhardisty1652]

Jonathan is always really good. Obviously we are all trying to figure this out. I do have the Wolfgramm family history which had the oral history of where they came from. They tie into the Nephites via boat travel. They really believe this is correct with the Tongan people. I believe they traveled via water from either Central or South America.

[@evafarley8074]

Hagoth

[@milesmoore8705]

Or from Pacific coast of future USA. Or they sailed out from the shores of the southern parts of the great lakes.

[@SmoothRuffian]

I am family members with the Wolfgramms through marriage. It doesn’t really matter so much what their “oral” tradition says. They probably took cues from some others that claimed a relationship to Hagoth. But we know that Tongans came from Fiji and and New Zealand. So the Wolfgramms have a family tradition perhaps, but there is no good proof to believe that. There is no DNA evidence, nor even phenotypic evidence, to believe that they are related to middle eastern people.

[@bradhardisty1652]

@@SmoothRuffian I've had the book in storage for over 15 years. I may try to locate and review.

[@bradandjulierich8175]

Hey! I’m with you. We visited the Wolfgramm family at their home in Sandy in 1983. They had their genealogy embroidered and printed on a long linen sheet. Brother Wolfgramm showed us their shared lineage with the King of Tonga, and that they were going to present that beautiful record to the King on their next trip to Tonga. The top of the genealogy showed that they were descendants of Hagoth.

[@ethanaylett]

Why is there no mention of snow in the Book of Mormon?

[@commoncents5191]

Nephi uses the description “white as the driven snow”. If you live in Central America then this would go over your head. But if you live in the Midwest, you know exactly what that means. 😂

[@redfightblue]

The Book of Mormon is an Ethiopian Text written by Ethiopian Jews.

[@avoice423]

The andes mountains have snow

[@jeremycollins1068]

Okay, Stick of Joseph guys, where is the snow in the BoM. I’m not a meso or heartland guy. But there in no mention of snow.

[@thestickofjoseph]

The explanation for this is that the earth was much warmer during BOM times. For example, parrots, which are a tropical bird, have been found as far as New York at that time. There are many other evidences that show that is the case as well.

[@jeremycollins1068]

@@thestickofjoseph - That’s interesting. Has anyone done a thorough treatment of this? It should be easy (easy as in access to info, but would take some significant time and effort) to look at climate indicators and other literature at relevant time periods to corroborate this.

[@carlloeber]

I like what he was saying about. Going all over the world and seeing the gathered saints. I've had the same experience. The church community is the largest single community of believers in the look at all the other religions. They are divided into hundreds of sects.

[@ChrisShadowman]

Why not both?

[@godsoffspring4195]

It is both. South of N America was Lamanites only.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Lamanites lived in tents. They didn't build the giant pyramids south of the border.

[@godsoffspring4195]

@@fightingfortruth9806 ... Well, of course they lived in tents when chasing the Nephites around the countryside. Can't take their cities with them. They also lived in cities that they took over from the Nephites. Nephites spent a lot of time in tents also. The point is... from the tip of S. America to the Arctic ... anyone who was not part of the Nephite people were Lamanites. Lamanites who converted became Nephites. There were Lamanites living on both continents for a long time before Nephi arrived. Some in tents... some more stationary in cities. Nomadic Lamanites such as those who followed the buffalo in N. America would have been tent dwellers.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Most of what you claim isn't in the Book of Mormon at all. How could there be Lamanites all over N&S America before the Nephites arrived when Nephi and Laman arrived at the same time? It also states clearly in the Book of Mormon that the Nephites did not allow the Lamanites north of the Narrow Neck of land. In fact it states in Alma 50:11 that the Nephites possessed "all the land" northward. So, no Lamanites were not everywhere. And it says consistently that the Lamanites were wild, ferocious and lived in tents even up to Helaman 3:16. The Lamanites were robbers, not builders of organized cities. That's what the Book of Mormon states. I do not believe ANY of the Mesoamerican pyramids were built by Lamanites. These pyramids were already covered by jungle when Cortez arrived.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Most of the Mayan temples were completed covered by jungle when Cortez arrived. That's because the Lamanites had no use for them after they destroyed the Nephites who built them.