Jonathan Neville | New Book, Moroni's America, and the Heartland Geography Theory.

[@nanciejepsen6614]

N Just as a note of interest, I live in Scandinavia and the church is rebuilding the Stockholm Sweden temple. Apparently there were some issues with the foundation so it became necessary to tear the building down. As they were digging for the new foundation they uncovered a lot of Viking artefacts and signs of a settlement.

[@WhiteCleats]

Really?? Wow. Has anything been written about that? That area is of particular interest to me.

[@angelalewis3645]

Awesome!

[@CatchTheBuzz1]

Awesome thanks for sharing!!!

[@joannb6254]

@@nanciejepsen6614 awesome! Thank you for sharing this information

[@jasonarch2812]

Through DNA testing my wife and I found out both of us have Scandinavian ancestry Sweden, Finland, and Norway, and lots of cooking ancestors through genealogy. It's so awesome. Can't wait to find Christian connections in Scandinavian history, if there are any.

[@haydenschaap]

Let’s go! Been hoping for another Jonathan Neville episode. Thanks guys!

[@dwigamaniac]

I believe the BOM took place in the Heartland, but in the end it doesn’t really matter. The truths and principles of the BOM are what makes the difference.

[@bryanpons6585]

As we get deeper into the last days, the prophecies that contain the words "this land" will be more important. Where is "this land" ??? It matters more and more all the time. IMHO

[@davidmickelle7326]

It does matter that we determine where and who, as a fulfillment of the covenants of the Lord with the prophets of the book not to mention one of the key points listed on the title page ...that the remnants of the Lamanites may know what great things the Lord has done for their fathers.

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who he Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who he Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).

[@Glork_the_orc]

Why does no one ever mention this. In the record of Zelph, Joseph said: “He was a warrior under the great prophet Onandagus that was known from the Hill Cumorah or EAST SEA to the Rocky mountains.” The area we believe is the hill Cumorah is only 15-20 miles from Lake Ontario or the “sea east”. Joseph labels it and yet no one ever mentions that. Just say’n :)

[@jimmatheson948]

I haven't finished sources and outlines for Moroni after BofM ... North of Cumorah at the head of the river was where his daddy was born like a stream and Moroni exhausted collapsed asleep three days in childhood memories

[@sotl97]

It's not as sexy as being in Central America where there is plenty of archeology to support the claims.

[@angelalewis3645]

@@sotl97 That is the “heart” of the issue, I think. Mesoamerica is more exotic!

[@cdmbcgm]

What does onandagus mean? The tribe in New York called Onondaga means people of the Hill. The Lenni-Lanape (Delaware) and the Kalamath Natives (northern California). Both have an origin account from Siberia or Eastern Europe. The Kalamath name for the ancient white people that lived in the US on the west coast two thousand years ago was wa-gus or white people. Does gus in onandagus mean people? Seems to be similar language as the Di-nene.

[@ben_clifford]

Who is Zelph?

[@oooee]

Fun fact, The Sea of Galilee is half the size of Utah Lake area wise, and the Dead Sea in the land of Judah is a quarter the size of the Great Salt Lake in Yeh-huu-dah (part of the modern day promised land ;-) However, I'm pretty sure there were no Nephites around that would have known the size of any "seas" from around Jerusalem and could compare them to the bodies of water in the heartland. That said, I'd have a hard time comparing lakes I've seen in Utah and then go to Michigan and look at the great lakes and refer to them as lakes. I can see across a lake, but I don't think I could see across Lake Michigan or Lake Superior or even some of the smaller great lakes. They are certainly seas to my understanding. 21:10

[@fredheimuli5913]

I've been to Lake Ontario and Lake Huron multiple times. They definitely in person appear as oceans or seas. They're Huge bodies of water that look as if you're standing at the edge of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans

[@rconger24]

I swam in Lake Erie. Can't swim or see across it!

[@donnettevanwagoner7097]

That’s exactly what I said when I saw the Sea of Galilee. Utah lake is bigger than this!

[@DB_Golfer]

Totally agree with this

[@helenlehman2939]

In Europe the community's called, and still do call large bodies of water a "Sea"

[@RussellFineArt]

So happy to see members embracing the fact that the Book of Mormon lands are in the heartland of the U.S. Joseph Smith repeatedly testified of this and made it overwhelmingly clear.

[@disciplesofjesuschrist2026]

@@RussellFineArt overzealous nationalism and egp hype

[@asarg1776]

@@disciplesofjesuschrist2026 oh ok. Tell that to JS when you see him. Why argue about it ? You don’t have to agree. You can move along and keep looking. And allow others the same courtesy.

[@disciplesofjesuschrist2026]

@@asarg1776 Absolutely...No contention here..I disagree on many grounds too numerous to espouse here..I will keep moving along without having to look and allow others to make their own choices, however we must remember to separate fact from fiction according to the laws of the Holy Ghost.

[@Eluzian86]

@@disciplesofjesuschrist2026 The Land of Promise is said to be "a land which is choice above all the lands of the earth" (Ether 1:42). It was also wisdom in the Lord to keep the knowledge of its existence from other nations for a time so they don't overrun the land and leave no space for Lehi's family to inherit. (2 Nephi 1:8) I interpret that to mean the Land of Promise/ Lands of the Book of Mormon, would literally be the best lands on earth from which to establish a civilization. Interpreted literally, I believe the only place that matches that scripture is the United States of America, in particular, the eastern United States. Here's a KZbin video reference to support my claim: 'How Geography Made the US Ridiculously OP' by RealLifeLore

[@daleclark7127]

Too bad the current church leaders don’t concur. Or is it?

[@WilliamRAguilar]

That Steamboat History is extremely enlightening

[@novistala]

I'm a heartlander baby!

[@mrmod123]

AWESOME!!! Always love me some Neville!!! Heartland all day long!!

[@christiana_mandalynn]

I clicked on this so fast. Thank you!! 😍

[@stevenelkins2490]

Awesome Johnathan

[@gjDOnBBQ]

This is super exciting 🙌

[@HarrisHVAC]

Heartland here! It makes sense to me.

[@mattmeagher365]

If you’ve ever seen a big flood on the Missouri or Mississippi Rivers like 1951, 1952, 1984 and 1993 you realize it would only take one flood to bury anything in 100 feet of silt, sand, dirt and debris. My folks told me about the floods of 1951 and 1952 coming all the way up the Carrollton, Mo. hill from the River, which is about six miles away at the closest point.

[@Ayala_411]

As a descendant of Lehi, my job is to testify of The Book of Mormon, it doesn’t matter if it took place within the United States. It took place in the Americas.

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who he Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who he Lamanites are??? The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

Of course it matters.

[@yancanam]

If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, don't you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are??? The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” (Morm. 5:22). That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. Later in the Book of Mormon we read 16 Therefore, saith the Lord: I will not utterly destroy them (speaking of the lamanites), but I will cause that in the day of my wisdom they shall return again unto me, saith the Lord.

[@joannastle7901]

This was so good I listened to it twice!

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Same here!:)

[@csluau5913]

I really love the research done by Mr. Neville. He is a first class researcher and a gentleman. A couple of side notes. If you want to see the damage that a River can do in a short period of time, all you need to do is look at the modern headlines. The flooding from the severe storm and hurricane Helene that hit the southeastern United States did a massive amount of damage and wiped out hundreds of homes and pretty much erased a number of small hamlets and villages not to mention completely destroyed roads which very likely happened in book of Mormon times as well. The Mississippi river and others have burst their banks many times over the last 100 years and caused massive flooding, great damage and casualties. Much closer to home in my own state, the Catawba river runs from the Appalachian mountains in Western North Carolina down through South Carolina towards Columbia, where it joins the Wateree and Congaree rivers which flow southward and joins the Santee river which flows to the Atlantic Ocean. Imagine how many settlements and villages must have been along those rivers in ancient times that are now gone. Brother Neville is correct about the hydrography maps, especially the ones that were mapped using LiDAR which are very revealing, and in some cases, you can even see whether there were once settlements or structures on the riverbanks, which are now gone. In research that I did over the last few years, I found at least two different ancient village sites that were destroyed by flooding at some point in the past using these type of maps which were created by the NOAA. They are great resources and tools to use, and it also shows how the water flowed and when it left behind and if the rivers and tributaries changed course in the past. The number of rivers and tributaries in the Americas are what make it so far I’ll which is one of the reasons why it is a choice land above all others because it is a productive land. Between the fertile soils, the beautiful landscapes, and the abundance of mineral resources, which all support a tremendous number of life forms.

[@novawarren5089]

We will continue with learning till Jesus Christ set it correct for the world 🌎 I love the study 📖 of scriptures and Joseph Smith ❤was ahead of us 🎉all bless him 🙏 ❤️ 47:12

[@Elmorr562]

I read his book a while ago and have been trying to get other people to read it. It is so good!

[@Heartsinmelody]

Great chat

[@PBott-mvmuse]

I love this book. The second edition has jumped to the top of my purchase list.

[@rickybowers7372]

Heartland all day long baby!

[@BettyHorn]

Excellent job!

[@Xutto80]

On the farm directly across the river from Nauvoo Temple there is a rectangular mound. It has been plowed over many times but the general sense of it can still be seen in old satellite photos and different coloration of the plant life as it dries out. There is info about it somewhere in the old interweb. I forget where.

[@jeffreya.faulkner8367]

These two guests will not point out that (unlike the Heartland) Mesoamerica fits the Book-of-Mormon's description of its region. Check it out. Look up "Chivela Pass" on maps. See if it works for the narrow pass. There are three prominent and related geographical features in the BoM: 1) The narrow pass, 2) the narrow passage, and 3) the narrow neck. These three features are clearly seen on maps of central Mexico: 1) Chivela Pass lies within the 2) passage through the Sierra Madre mountains, which is within the 3) Isthmus of Tehuantepec. The sea surrounds the central isthmus (narrow neck of land), being found in the four cardinal directions. The isthmus is a composite land, with large lagoons on the south, Chivela Pass in the middle, a floodplain on the northern half, North America (the land northward) toward the northwest, and Central America (the land southward) toward the southeast. The narrow neck of land divides the LNW from the LSW, just like the Scripture says. The sea is found all around. . . .

[@Eluzian86]

I disagree with your assertion. Here's my reasoning: The Four Cardinal Seas and the Narrow Strip of Wilderness: The Mesoamerica Model and the internal models make huge assumptions in their interpretations of the scriptural text that I believe gives them the wrong conclusions regarding the four cardinal seas and the narrow strip of wilderness. - Sea North and Sea South are not mentioned by name in Alma 22. They're mentioned a generation later in Helaman 3:8 when there was a mass migration from Zarahemla to settle the land of Desolation. When it is talking about the people covering the land from Sea South to Sea North, and from Sea West to Sea East, I believe it's referring to the land of Desolation, not the Book of Mormon lands as a whole. - It is assumed the narrow strip of wilderness is a natural feature of geography that happens to correspond to the borders between the Nephites and Lamanites. It is a wilderness bordering other wildernesses, which tells me it's a wilderness where nobody lives as compared to the east, west, and north wildernesses where Lamanites dwell. I believe it's simply a "no-man's-land" or "buffer zone" between two groups who are regularly in conflict. - The narrow strip of wilderness also has a specific shape, which helps us understand the extent of the land of Nephi as well. It is seen by the words "round about," which means: on all sides or in all directions; surrounding someone or something; in or to the opposite direction. In Alma 22:27, the King of the Lamanites is sending a Proclamation from all sides of the city of Nephi in every direction even to the sea, on the east and on the west. It is an assumption that it's referring to the Sea East and Sea West. It could simply be directional and refer to a body of water in that direction, which could be different than Sea East and Sea West. When tied in context with the term "round about" in Alma 22:27, the seashore would extend from directly east of the city if Nephi, then southward and around until it is longitudinally west of the city of Nephi. It doesn't extend directly west of the city of Nephi because that's where the land of Nephi borders the west wilderness. The land of Nephi would then have seashore to the east and south, and land to the west and north. - The narrow strip of wilderness has two ends. One end touches both the borders of the North Wilderness and the seashore of Sea West. The other end touches the seashore of Sea East. Therefore, it starts north of Zarahemla and runs south. Because it needs to end up going in or to the opposite direction, it needs to start turning around. I believe it turns east at the city of Manti, then continues east past the head of the river Sidon, then back northward after reaching the East Wilderness unil it runs into Sea East. Therefore, you end up with the narrow strip of wilderness in a "U" shape with both Sea West and Sea East to the north, with the narrow strip of wilderness going "round about" the Nephites, or surrounding them on all sides in every direction aside from the way north into the land of Desolation.

[@Khig494]

I 100% agree with you

[@maryannstout7600]

This is so much fun. I love 💕 seeing the arguments for the BoM geography for both the Heartlands and MesoAmerica. I have come to believe that it took place on both North and South America. But I firmly believe that there is only one Hill Cumorah. Whatever we all believe we shall definitely find out during the Millennium.

[@chrisconners1977]

Land of many waters, Mexico?

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Maybe not in this video, but these are all topics that HAVE been addressed. Keep digging!:)

[@AbrahamicAstronomy]

Silbury Hill is a fascinating site. Great astronomical connections with monuments in that landscape. Did you also stop at nearby Avebury?

[@rutht2023]

I like this model for the Book of Mormon area. I do have a question though. If the Mississippi was the west sea, which river was the river sidon? Are they different people referring to the same thing with different names, or are they different items?

[@Eluzian86]

The Nile River has been referred to as a "sea" and a "river" simultaneously in ancient times. The reference to it as a "sea" appears to be related specifically to its gigantic floodplains, which were 12 miles wide on average. Therefore, the North Mississippi could be called a river, but the South Mississippi, where its floodplain opens up massively, could be called a "sea" in ancient times. Neville also talked about how, even today, the North Mississippi is considered distinctly different than the South Mississippi, after the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers. The Lower Ohio River had a floodplain 2 to 3 miles wide anciently and could be a contender for the seashore of the land of Jershon, which is "east by the sea" (Alma 27:22). Jershon was described this way at least five years before the east wilderness by the sea, was cleared of Lamanites, before the Nephites controlled that area east by the sea. I think the text indicates there is a type of "sea" before the "sea in the east." The Lower Missouri River, starting around Sioux City, had a floodplain anciently around 8 to 10 miles wide, which could be a contender for having a "city beyond, in the borders by the seashore" (Alma 56:31). There is no statement in the Book of Mormon that says the west wilderness was cleared of Lamanites and settled the same way the east wilderness was. The last city retaken was Manti, which was the main border city in the southwest in the Alma 22 description. Therefore, I think it's likely the "city beyond, in the borders by the seashore", was a cuty already in Nephite control in Alma 22, which would indicate a type of "sea" being between Nephite lands and the west wilderness in the south region. I think that means the text doesn't clearly state the west wilderness of the Lamanites bordered a sea to its west, it could have bordered land controlled by other groups of people.

[@rutht2023]

@Eluzian86 Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts.

[@doxdog]

This is all 100% correct,. Now take into consideration, Serpent Mound and it’s possible connection to the Adina/Jaredite culture. Recent papers show serpent mound is much older and sophisticated than we’ve been told. It was built on the edge of an ancient asteroid impact site and shows alignment with the astronomical calendar. Also something to consider is the Hopewell airburst event over Ohio which corresponds to the destruction prophesied by Samuel the Lamanite. Celestial impacts are the common denominator.

[@PennieHendrickson]

Right.this needs to be reached from the pulpit. Why do you think the temple in Jackson cou ty MO will be built there?

[@TheDovesNest]

Hayden, what are you using to learn Hebrew? I've wanted to begin for about a year, but the "game style" apps I've tried are not cutting it. Please share whatever book/course/app you've found! Thanks!

[@GuitarPrepper]

I wish the church would take a stand on this topic, Joseph Smith Jr. was pretty clear!

[@RussellFineArt]

I'm 100% with you, it encourages our critics to view the Book of Mormon as a fairy tale, like Narnia, when today's prophets can't even confirm BofM locations.

[@abramknight9496]

“Words matter” only in context to what the current administration is saying. 😉

[@philandrews2860]

Be careful what you wish for. The stand that they could take on this topic might be one that you don't necessarily want to hear.. However, I think they will remain neutral on the topic of BofM geography until there is a modern revelation on it, or until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, whichever occurs first. I am glad for that, given the controversy and intense opinions of some members regarding this topic.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

@@philandrews2860why? Let them reveal it and those humble enough to accept it can accept it.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

I used to wish this, too, and wonder why they wouldn't do it. Joseph Smith did!! Bit they can't, and they won't, because they are false prophets and lack authority. They don't care where it happened, probably don't even believe it DID happen, just so long as tithing keeps rolling in to add to the $130+billion dollars they have amassed so far (that isn't going to help the poor and the needy).

[@Eluzian86]

In Alma 22, the Nephites are said to be "nearly surrounded" by the Lamanites when they are on three sides. Therefore, if the lands of Zarahemla and Nephi are surrounded by water on three sides or 75% or more, then it would fit the usage of the term to say they are "nearly surrounded" by water.

[@walesdave9031]

19 min - Another reason not taught in schools is early progressivism and scholarship (like Smithsonian) who "needed" to believe that Am. Indians were just savages, not descendants of noble civilizations.

[@christopherpeery7436]

11:40 is a very solid arguement i havent heard before

[@davidhawkins5719]

People became obsessed with Mesoamerica because of the stone ruins. From the BOM it appears that most of the construction was of wood. Wood decays, burns and is easily scattered. In England, there are Saxon ruins dating more recently than the BOM and yet there is very little to nothing left of their civilizations. They too built with wood and such structures decayed to nothingness. I suspect the peoples of the BOM left little behind and what was left has been absorbed into the land.

[@rock5948]

Nice video Stick of Joseph! Hopefully in the book it mentions the ancient city Manti. I’ll quote from the history records. Here are two accounts. The following account is taken from the history of the travels of the Kirtland Camp: “The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County, which has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti, and pitched tents at Dark Creek, Salt Licks, seventeen miles. It was reported to the camp that one hundred and ten men had volunteered from Randolph and gone to Far West to settle difficulties.” 1 The following account of the same event is taken from the daily journal of the Kirtland Camp, and was written by Samuel D. Tyler: “September 25, 1838. We passed through Huntsville, Co, seat of Randolph Co, Pop. 450, and three miles further we bought 32 bu. of corn off one of the brethren who resides in this place. There are several of the brethren round about here and this is the ancient site of the City of Manti, which is spoken of in the Book of Mormon and this is appointed one of the Stakes of Zion, and it is in Randolph County, Missouri, three miles west of the county seat.” 2, 3 1. Millennial Star, vol. 16, p. 296. 2. Journal of Samuel D. Tyler, Sept. 25, 1838, filed in Church Historian’s Office. 3. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 3: 239 Enjoy brethren! Another point on the map in the heartland. I look forward to getting this Book! I haven’t read the first addition but the second has all the 4:01 updates which makes it a plus for me. I love listening to the research of Johnathan Neville and others of the heartland.🙏🏽❤️🎉🇧🇲

[@rutht2023]

I never heard tbis. Thanks for sharing.

[@rock5948]

@@rutht2023 The evidence is written all in our church history. Joseph knew it was in the heartland. The revelations testify that it is as well, plus the Book of Mormon and Book of Ether testify of whereas well. We know that Zion the New Jerusalem is going to be built in the land of the Nephites and Jaredites which is non other than the United States. Here are just a few to ponder and put more stakes on the map. D&C 57:1-3 “Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is THE LAND OF MISSOURI, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints. 2 Wherefore, THIS IS THE LAND OF PROMISE, AND THE PLACE FOR THE CITY ZION. 3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence INDEPENDENCE IS THE CENTER PLACE; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.” Ether 13:2-6 “….from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land IT BECAME A CHOICE LAND ABOVE ALL OTHER LANDS, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof; 3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord. 4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a NEW JERUSALEM UPON THIS LAND. 5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come-after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel- 6 And that a NEW JERUSALEM SHOULD BE BUILD UPON THIS LAND, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.” 3Nephi 20:21-22 “21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel. 22 And behold, THIS PEOPLE WILL I ESTABLISH IN THIS LAND, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and IT SHALL BE A NEW JERUSALEM. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.” 1Nephi 2:20 “20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to A LAND OF PROMISE; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, A LAND WHICH IS CHOICE ABOVE ALL OTHER LANDS.” 🙏🏽

[@jimmatheson948]

City of the Red Hand means home of Zarah (Judah's last son)

[@gingersnaps215]

How’s you get there? “Yad” is “hand” in Hebrew. Actually, “Judah” has the word for “hand” in his name. It is not in Zarah. And the word for “red” is closer to “adam/edom” (same consonants, different vowel points). So how is “Zarah” “City of the Red Hand,” etymologically speaking?

[@jimmatheson948]

@@gingersnaps215 .. ........... ..... .......... ... ..... ...... is this about bugs or words or how smart-as-a-phone really work.? Cause if your talking way over my bone-head skin cancer and 81st candlelight birthday, I hope you love it enough to get olde too soon and too late schmarter than my ten years coffee shop campus degree where I heard an injun say, " ... that's what it meant ..." As for red hands on British family creast, Take it up with Vaughn Peterson PhD. Whence Came They... love you too kiddo

[@jimmatheson948]

@@gingersnaps215 while waking up for me is a gasping spasm of 81 year old COPD and Denton Tex American allergy of ragweed and mountain cedar, ... how old are you do you use ladies or men's depends ... you can always tell a schmartz person, they can dress others up or down in Hebrew filled with knowledgeable ... sorry my only collage degree comes from a coffee shop, bar, or General store pot belly stove campus barber shop ... can't help yah find your way out when I don't know where you came in out of the cold FROM...

[@gingersnaps215]

Right. Okay then. So Zarah has nothing to do with City of the Red Hand, other than you’d like it to..?

[@gingersnaps215]

I’ve never heard Zarahemla possibly meaning “City of the Red Hand,” from people with Hebrew knowledge and degrees (I also do not have a degree at all related to Hebrew, just a basic understanding of the alphabet and a few words and phrases; I’ve been meaning to actually try learning the language again) possibly meaning “seed of compassion/mercy,” or maybe “child of compassion/mercy,” or even “merciful scattering.” Zara might come from the Hebrew “zer’a,” meaning “seed,” and “hemla” means “pity, compassion, commiserating.”

[@lanceburton9953]

Where the steamboat sank, it could have been in anywhere from 30 to 150 feet of water depending on how deep the river was at that point. Still, having it covered up that much in 100 years is fascinating.

[@DGHamblinFOTW]

Love Hayden's Kwaku El-esque mustache in the intro!! ❤

[@yancanam]

Another interesting thing, in the early days of the church many members had a statement in their patriarchal blessings that they would assist in the restoration of the Lamanites to their promised blessings. This would have been clearly talking about the north American native people. Another interesting point is that the Cahokia mound site is in St. Louis,Missouri. This was a massive population center. What is interesting is that this is directly east of Independence. Will the Cahokia area be a place of significance in relation to Lamanites and the restoration of their blessings?

[@gingersnaps215]

Do we all forget that Utah was part of Mexico when the saints first settled there..?

[@Thehaystack7999]

Grateful for all the work, and focus Jonathan has put into this!

[@yancanam]

The oversimplified conclusions that members often seem to glom onto of a single point of entry with just one group of people, when fully understood one realizes just how complex this topic is. We know that there are at least three different groups mentioned within the Book of Mormon the Jaredites, the Mulekites and Lehi’s group. Additionally, there are a number of hints that they were not alone but there were other unrelated groups in the area as well. Since we can eliminate the possibility of only one location or point of entry since there would be multiple arrival points making both the geography and DNA questions much more complex. While our leaders have encouraged us not to get into debates regarding specific locations as it relates to the geographical picture, there are a number of more general locational hints provided in the Book of Mormon that are hard to ignore. For example, the Jaredites being in the land northward. 30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing. Alma 22:30 Note that not only were the Jaradites in the land north, but it tells us that this was also the place of their first landing. Could the Jaredites have come down the St Lawrence Seaway? Within the naturally occurring copper found along the borders of the great lakes, there are remnants of extensive ancient copper mines including the stone tools and other implements that were used to secure this copper. Additionally, the Book of Mormon informs us that the Jaredites were a large people. 26 And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men as to the strength of men. Ether 15:26 34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words. Ether 1:34 Skeletal remains in this same region have been found that are 7 or 8 feet in height, source The Historical Collections of Ohio, 1849 Bones found in the mounds were of a gigantic structure… Now turning to the DNA issue, we tend to oversimply and think the Book of Mormon people are alone in America, it seems apparent that there had been other people in the land, and not too far away. Lehi’s family wasn’t the first people. When you find bones, it doesn’t mean they are Nephite, Lamanite, or Jaredite necessarily. Going south we know that Zarahemla was a Mulekite establishment, perhaps part of what is now known as the Hopewell civilization may have been the Mulekites. Amalickiah was a Mulekite, his name meaning “my king is Jehovah.” . We forget that Zarahemla wasn’t a Nephite city at all; it was a Mulekite City. The Mulekites were a mixed band, much larger than Lehi’s Group, who came over when Jerusalem fell. We know now from the Lachish letters that the youngest member of the royal family did escape. He would be Mulek, the “little king”. Possibly, they call themselves the Mulekites because he led their particular group. … They not only built the big city of Zarahemla, but they ( included ) almost all the dissenters. Ammon was a Mulekite, a pure descendant of Zeniff. Returning to the geography questions, we learn that Lehi’s group arrived further south perhaps in the region between North and South America per Helaman 6. Nephi is freed, and by his prayer the storm ceases-The people arrive in the promised land. About 591-589 B.C. 22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land. 23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the apromised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land. 1 Nephi 18: Note the geographical details found in Helaman in regards to their point of first landing: 10 Now the land south was called aLehi, and the land north was called bMulek, which was after the cson of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south. Helaman 6 Along with this there are frequent indications we will see in the Book of Mormon of ancient and exotic peoples in the background, for example, when Alma went to visit the Zoramites on a mission. They dissented, as you know, and went out. They had only been away from the central culture for a short period. He says they (Alma and his group) were utterly dumbfounded. They were so amazed they didn’t know what to think of it. It absolutely stunned them. They (the Zoramites) had a totally different religion of very exotic things in which they built towers and stairways and all this sort of thing to have prayers. They loaded themselves with all sorts of costly and lavish apparel, and the priests were parading murals, vases, and the reliefs of Central and South America - this lavish, strange religion which was there before. The Zoramites took it up obviously. Almost overnight they had this whole different culture. ( Alma and his brethren ) were completely amazed by what they found, how they had changed everything. They kept some of the old religion and adopted this, that and the other. But who would give them this idea? You don’t just invent a religion whole cloth that way. They came out and picked this up. Including gold in everything for one thing. And they don’t just wear gold, but what else do they wear? They load themselves like a walking Christmas tree, with feathers and all sorts of clinking, rattling, and glittering garbage. Then they parade themselves. It’s comical in Central America. They overdo it so, whether it’s on the Mayan, or the illustrations of the Popol Vuh. It shows the grandees parading around with much too much hardware on. That’s a sign of pride, and it talks a great deal in the Book of Mormon about their precious, costly apparel. It doesn’t say beautiful apparel ever. It just says costly; that’s the main thing. That’s the only thing that interests us-that it has the proper label on it. The cost is what makes them great. This is the way the people were. “And some were lifted up unto pride and boastings because of their exceedingly great riches.” There are various ways. Boasting doesn’t mean you would have to go and shout it from the housetops. It’s the same thing with our labels on jeans -our fashionable designer labels and things like that. You can size a person’s wardrobe up when you see it, total up the bill, and decide exactly how much he spent on it. This happens, and we do that deliberately. We try to make it obvious that we are wearing a particular brand of this, that, or the other. They are boasting because of their riches and making their riches obvious. It becomes invidious comparison. Here it gives us the kind of culture they had. You can see that these are more complex issues than first meets the eye. The inhabitants of early America were a mix of many different cultures. Let me show you something in the Doctrine and Covenants 3:16. On the 116 pages that were lost there was information that we don’t have today. This is a broad hint of the sort of things that was in them. Section 3 discusses the loss of the 116 pages, which were not going to be replaced at that time. It’s a very interesting thing here. D&C SECTION 3 Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, July 1828, relating to the loss of 116 pages of manuscript translated from the first part of the Book of Mormon, which was called the book of Lehi. The Prophet had reluctantly allowed these pages to pass from his custody to that of Martin Harris, who had served for a brief period as scribe in the translation of the Book of Mormon. The revelation was given through the Urim and Thummim. (See section 10.) 16 Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world, through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of a Savior come unto my people- 17 And [this message will go] to the Nephites [there are still Nephites around], and the Jacobites [it breaks them down into seven tribes], and the Josephites[they are still distinct], and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathers- 18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations. D&C 3 Now they are the four tribes that are classed as Nephite; as it tells us later, that is just purely a cultural, political classification to call them Nephites because they include these four tribes: Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, and Zoramites. The other three are the Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites. That makes the seven tribes. You usually have to have seven tribes. Seven or twelve you have to have. But it’s more complicated than you think. And even though the Lamanites had only three tribes, they were far more numerous-an interesting development. Well, it’s because they had a healthier family life. It tells us that they loved their children, and they didn’t play around, like Amulon and people like that.

[@rconger24]

Wow long!

[@yancanam]

@@rconger24 Sorry for the length, this is a topic I find very interesting.

[@Nassaldromus]

It was worth the time it took to write, ​@@yancanam. It was worth the time it took to read it too. Thanks.

[@мельник754]

You frequently mention the importance of acknowledging our biases in various theories, yet Jonathan Neville has no problem stating that anyone who doesn't accept the Hill Cumorah in New York is an apostate when the text of the Book of Mormon makes it exceptionally clear that the plates were taken from the Hill Cumorah and buried elsewhere.

[@Eluzian86]

The plates were taken from the Hill Cumorah, but it doesn't state clearly where the plates were buried. All he said after the plates were separated out from the rest of the records was, "...I am the same who hideth up this record unto the Lord..." (Mormon 8:14). According to the text, anywhere Moroni could have traveled to is where he could have buried them, which would include the Hill Cumorah as an option. He wouldn't be restricted from burying the plates there later simply because that's where he took them from.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

Some people felt slight tremors from the New Madrid earthquakes all the way up in Boston? That changes everything. It fits perfectly with there being an even greater destruction in the land Northward, for the face of the whole land was deformed. Why that would mean that the epicenter is in the middle of the land Northward, with an even bigger earthquake than the New Madrid. Wait, there aren't any major faults in the North part of the Heartland, and the very flat land hasn't changed since the glaciers rolled over leaving small hills of rubble like the hill named after Cumorah in New York, though it was never called Cumorah by Joseph Smith Jr., and he crossed out Cumorah when someone tried to insert it as a quote from him into the official Church Newspaper. Furthermore it says at the head of Sidon they were wading back and forth as they were surrounded by the Nephites on both shores, which they could easily see both sides, and they surrendered while in the middle of Sidon. Or maybe while fleeing the Nephites they quickly stopped and made enough boats for their entire army, but then with how wide Sidon would be if it's the confluence of the Missouri River and the Mississippi River, why didn't they just hop back on those boats they built and sail down river to escape the Nephites? Because there were no boats, the river Sidon wasn't wide or deep enough at the head or start to need boats, because it wasn't any river in the Heartland. The Heartlanders try to come up with excuses to solve one problem, and end up with even bigger problems they have to pretend don't exist to keep from losing followers. They think they can shout the loudest and that will make their problems disappear.🤦🏻‍♂️

[@Eluzian86]

From my interpretation of the text, the head of the river Sidon is not the river's source but a major confluence of rivers. During the Battle of Zarahemla in Alma 2, which took place on the Sidon River, the river is indicated to be in a north to south orientation, and the river is north of the Head of the River Sidon. Later in Alma 43, during the battle against Zarahemnah on the Sidon River, the text again indicates the river is in a north to south orientation. Also, the Lamanites had to be marching south and around in their own territory since they didn't expect the Nephites to know where they went. That means they would be crossing Sidon south of the head. The text indicates the Sidon River is both north and south of the Head of the River Sidon and oriented north to south basically the whole way. How the battles play out also shows it was likely easier to cross the river north of the head rather than south of it. That indicates it is a bigger and deeper river to the south, so it would flow south. Since the Sidon River is both north and south of the head, that tells me it is a major confluence of rivers. The actual source of the river, I would guess, is located somewhere in the North Wilderness outside of Nephite control.

[@LiaSunshine67]

Love your content. Absolutely fascinating. Would you consider adding visuals so the subscribers can see what they are talking about? I know it would help me❤

[@grantimus1]

There shouldn't be contention between these theories. They are theories, not factual. Who knows when or if we'll have solid evidence in our time. Still fascinating to hear evidences from all areas. Chief Midegah beings new interesting insights too worth reviewing.

[@davidj8580]

Which is why the church needs to make a clear statement and end the contention and confusion.

[@jasonsfireofaith]

When we went to some of the church history sites in Ohio and New York we stopped at Niagara falls for one day and I could easily see how part of that area where the water completely drops could have been a settlement or city that just sunk.

[@kz6fittycent]

Interestingly, "tsarah" means" From tsar (properly, a narrow or constricted place; figuratively, trouble, a pebble, an enemy, anguish, or distress); from tsarar (to bind, restrict, narrow, be cramped, an adversary). This is tightness, distress, affliction, trouble, or adversary. "chemlah" means "mercy, pity, compassion" If Zarahemla is a phonetic spelling of "tsarah chemla" it could mean MANY things! Which, considering the history of Zarahemla, it makes sense (at least to me) that it'd be appropriate that it have multiple meanings.

[@gingersnaps215]

I’ve seen it posited that it might mean “seed of compassion/mercy,” “merciful scattering,” pr “child of compassion/mercy,” based on “zara” possibly coming from the Hebrew “zer’a” meaning “seed.”

[@kz6fittycent]

@@gingersnaps215 yep! I have tried that iteration, too. My friend who is Jewish, from Israel and speaks fluent Hebrew, within moments of hearing me say "Zarahemla" knew what it was and told me that in the Torah, God spoke to Israel and proclaimed "Tsarah chemla!" - he said it meant something like, "I used to show you mercy". Essentially saying, I'm done playing with you guys.

[@Sword_of_Laban]

3:04 We know the Hill Cumorah is NOT in NY. The book of Mormon specifically says hey here's this hill called Cumorah and I'm burying all the records here EXCEPT this record -- EXCEPT the gold plates! The Book of Mormon specifically says the Hill Cumorah is where the gold plates are NOT. That hill in NY only became to be called "Cumorah" much later, and not by Joseph or Moroni, and arguably based on an incorrect reading of the BoM. Basically early church members read in the BoM about a hill with records in, and this ancient hill was called Cumorah, so they started calling the NY hill Cumorah. It was an error. The NY hill is some other hill, chosen at some point as the burial place for the gold plates. I don't mind people calling it that today, because they at this point what else would we call it? But it becomes a problem when "Cumorah" in NY is used as a reason why the heartland model is correct. The Heartland model has other support, but "Cumorah" being in NY is not one of them. That hill is not actually "Cumorah."

[@philandrews2860]

@Sword_of_Laban That's one of the pet peeves I have also with the Heartland model, among others. When Jonathan Neville and others accuse the various non-Heartland models of having '2 Cumorahs', in a derogatory way, particularly with the Mesoamerican models, I find that as a completely inaccurate straw-man argument. We don't believe in '2 Cumorahs'. We believe there was 1 Cumorah, and that it's not the one in NY where Moroni buried the plates for Joseph Smith to find there. It's the one spoken of in the Book of Mormon where Mormon buried all the other plates, except those he gave to his son Moroni. It's location is currently unknown, though some researchers have come up with plausible locations, based on their theories. Then many of the Heartland folks accuse us of 'not believing what the prophets have said on the matter', while they are in effect completely ignoring what our most recent prophets and apostles have said on the matter, which is that we don't yet know the actual location of the Hill Cumorah where Mormon buried the majority of the records. I will go with what the modern prophets and apostles are saying. For similar reasons, I don't believe every single thing that earlier prophets and apostles have said in the past, though I do think that they were all great leaders and great servants of the Lord. Brigham Young is a prime example of this. I certainly disagree strongly with his opinions on race and the priesthood that he had during mortality, though I also believe he was a great man and a good and faithful leader and servant of the Lord. I'm sure that when we meet him on the other side, we will find that we agree with him much more at that time than we would have during his mortal life.

[@Sword_of_Laban]

@@philandrews2860 Yeah, and I'm sure Neville knows this, he's a smart guy. I'm pretty sure he just ignores it, thinking there is enough grey area to be able to still make his claim that that hill in NY is Cumorah. Ok. But dude, don't base your whole argument on a grey area.

[@Sword_of_Laban]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo Please give me one quote from JS that calls that hill Cumorah. Wow, dude you're coming in hot BY and later and other saints may have called it Cumorah, but as I said in my original statement, it appears that these people erroneously made that connection. In Mormon 6 it says he hid the sacred records except not the gold plates, in the hill Cumorah. In Mormon 8 it references Cumorah again as the place of the final battles. Nothing in BoM nor from JS says that hill in NY is Cumorah. Dude, I don't care if you believe it is, there's enough grey area for you to maybe believe that. Sure. But just don't make it a lynchpin of the heartland model since it's not very strong argument. You guys have stronger arguments but this is not one of them

[@Sword_of_Laban]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo one quote from JS or Moroni. There isn't one. Oliver is free to think as he will, and JS won't always correct everybody all the time

[@brocktrease3021]

When you have multi part interviews can you please put them together? cause I see part 2 of this one but then I don’t see part 1 or 3. I have missed a bunch of shows I would otherwise watch if I could find them.

[@robertphillips6051]

In my recent reading of the war chapters of the Book of Mormon, as I read about the narrow neck, the image of a slot canyon like you see in southern Utah came to my mind. Is there some such location in the Appalachians or in the Ozarks? Just another idea.

[@l7846]

@ 20:20 the seas. How do we know the cardinal compass direction we use were the same as the ones they used. Most western European an Western Hemisphere maps show N as top, tpp of the page/map, E to the right, and so forth. Look at an Eastern European map and its as though you are at the north pole looking down. Also. East to us is aleigned with the sun (Son?) rise. How do we know that was the same orientation used by Jaredites/ Nephites?

[@jimmatheson948]

Chillicothe is an Indio name for the head of the river or conjunction of two rivers in America ...

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

Right about the 3:15 mark, it's said, "We know the hill Cumorah is in NY". Here's the thing, you believe that the hill Cumorah as described in The Book of Mormon is the drumlin in Upstate NY, but you can't know that, because there's just nothing whatsoever to validate that assertion from any applicable, evidentiary fields of science / scholarship. I understand the main audience for this kind of thing is believing LDS folk, but I think a modification of assertions would be wise. There's nothing there at that drumlin, or in the surrounding areas to indicate the battles described in the BofM happened. And if you make the claim that we just haven't done enough digging, I have a very good response to that, if interested. The opening statement at the 3:15 mark, disqualifies the assertions that follow it. You don't build a purported civilization model from something that you just happen to believe, but which doesn't hold true from any examination of any applicable fields of science. That's not how this works. Also, the purported "Hill Cumorah" is the only location attested to by LDS Prophets and Apostles (other than Smith's statement about "Zelph" and that general location), in LDS church history. It should be a matter of great focus, as no other site has been positively asserted by LDS Prophets / Apostles. Unfortunately, there's no supporting evidence for the assertion, yet discovered. As an interesting aside...I was present on the banks of the Susquehanna River (I'm from right there, read "Downstream" from the June, 1987 "New Era" magazine), at the beginning of April, 1980, when Spencer Kimball was visiting the area for the sesquicentennial, and he explicitly stated that exact location was the exact spot of the purported Aaronic Priesthood Restoration. Just a point of interest.

[@Aristotle33]

“Since the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, members and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have expressed numerous opinions about the specific locations of the events discussed in the book. Some believe that the history depicted in the Book of Mormon-with the exception of the events in the Near East-occurred in North America, while others believe that it occurred in Central America or South America. Although Church members continue to discuss such theories today, the Church’s only position is that the events the Book of Mormon describes took place in the ancient Americas. ... The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose. Individuals may have their own opinions regarding Book of Mormon geography and other such matters about which the Lord has not spoken. However, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. All parties should strive to avoid contention on these matters. - "Book of Mormon Geography," Gospel Topics Essays for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (last accessed 25 January 2022”

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

@@Aristotle33 An absurd cop-out.

[@Aristotle33]

@@rodneyjamesmcguire In what specific, relevant way does this well-researched, doctrinally on-point statement serve as a cop-out?

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

@@Aristotle33 Because there's more than a few, explicit, unambiguous statements from LDS Prophets and Apostles, for well over 125 years, that the drumlin in Upstate NY is the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon. It was unquestioned, until it became obvious that it wasn't true. So now we play the "they were just speaking opinion" card. The GOOJF card of Mormonism.

[@Aristotle33]

@@rodneyjamesmcguire One more than a few, explicit, unambiguous yet highly speculative statements do not make a revelation. Joseph Smith suggested that the lands of the Book of Mormon could plausibly include both North and South America. Your initial and concluding remarks, however, appear to exaggerate their speculative statements to support your own confirmation bias on this topic. All statements from Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and any others were speculation as to the exact location of Zarahemla, the Land of Nephi, and the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon. They didn't know then, and we don't know now. That being said, speculation turn to folklore pretty fast which then turned to "fact" for some. The Church's statement is exactly the right response.

[@EdTravelingEast]

The two pins should be: Hill Cumorah, NY and the New Jerusalem, MO. I am sure it happened somewhere in North America, not sure where yet.

[@neodigremo]

The thing is nowhere in the BOM is it stated the gold plates were buried in Cumorah. Other records but not the gold plates. For me this is not a conclusive pin. I get the idea but I don’t find it conclusive for me. (I know it gets called Cumorah later but i am not aware of any revelation or angelic minister saying so).

[@Eluzian86]

The Four Cardinal Seas mentioned in Helaman 3:8, I believe, was describing the settling of the land of Desolation, not the lands of the Book of Mormon in their entirety. If that's the case, then two narrow areas of passage are implied; one allowing passenge between Sea West and Sea South, and the other allowing passage between Sea East and Sea South. That would make sense if the Great Lakes are the Four Cardinal Seas because the Jaredites would have needed to pass through the Niagara area to get to the land of Cumorah (Ether 9:3) before the narrow neck of land was cleared of poisonous serpents (Ether 10:19).

[@andrewreed4216]

The nemenhah clear up a lot. Chief migegah of the ojibwe nation also shares what they know. Maybe we should be listening to the descendants of the people from the Book of Mormon and not making our own assumptions?

[@philandrews2860]

One big question comes to mind right off the bat: How can the Mississippi River be both the west sea and the Sidon River? It should be one or the other, right? Also in 1 Nephi 8:14 the BofM defines the head of a river as ‘from whence it came’

[@rconger24]

All that means is that the iron rod went no farther than the confluence of rivers.

[@Elmorr562]

It’s not the same. What’s called the River Sidon flows into what is called the west sea. You have to read the book.

[@Eluzian86]

From my interpretation of the text, the head of the river Sidon is not the river's source but a major confluence of rivers. During the Battle of Zarahemla in Alma 2, which took place on the Sidon River, the river is indicated to be in a north to south orientation, and the river is north of the Head of the River Sidon. Later in Alma 43, during the battle against Zarahemnah on the Sidon River, the text again indicates the river is in a north to south orientation. Also, the Lamanites had to be marching south and around in their own territory since they didn't expect the Nephites to know where they went. That means they would be crossing Sidon south of the head. The text indicates the Sidon River is both north and south of the Head of the River Sidon and oriented north to south basically the whole way. How the battles play out also shows it was likely easier to cross the river north of the head rather than south of it. That indicates it is a bigger and deeper river to the south, so it would flow south. Since the Sidon River is both north and south of the head, that tells me it is a major confluence of rivers. The actual source of the river, I would guess, is located somewhere in the North Wilderness outside of Nephite control. The bodies from the battle would have gone out to sea, I presume, into the ocean on the south, though not Sea South, but it would have to be the waters of Ripliancum. Below is my reasoning: The Four Cardinal Seas and the Narrow Strip of Wilderness: The Mesoamerica Model and the internal models make huge assumptions in their interpretations of the scriptural text that I believe gives them the wrong conclusions regarding the four cardinal seas and the narrow strip of wilderness. - Sea North and Sea South are not mentioned by name in Alma 22. They're mentioned a generation later in Helaman 3:8 when there was a mass migration from Zarahemla to settle the land of Desolation. When it is talking about the people covering the land from Sea South to Sea North, and from Sea West to Sea East, I believe it's referring to the land of Desolation, not the Book of Mormon lands as a whole. - It is assumed the narrow strip of wilderness is a natural feature of geography that happens to correspond to the borders between the Nephites and Lamanites. It is a wilderness bordering other wildernesses which tells me it's a wilderness where nobody lives as compared to the east, west, and north wildernesses where Lamanites dwell. I believe it's simply a "no-man's-land" or "buffer zone" between two groups who are regularly in conflict. - The narrow strip of wilderness also has a specific shape, which helps us understand the extent of the land of Nephi as well. It is seen by the words "round about," which means: on all sides or in all directions; surrounding someone or something; in or to the opposite direction. In Alma 22:27, the King of the Lamanites is sending a Proclamation from all sides of the city of Nephi in every direction even to the sea, on the east and on the west. It is an assumption that it's referring to the Sea East and Sea West. It could simply be directional and refer to a body of water in that direction, which could be different than Sea East and Sea West. When tied in context with the term "round about" in Alma 22:27, the seashore would extend from directly east of the city if Nephi, then southward and around until it is longitudinally west of the city of Nephi. It doesn't extend directly west of the city of Nephi because that's where the land of Nephi borders the west wilderness. The land of Nephi would then have seashore to the east and south, and land to the west and north. - The narrow strip of wilderness has two ends. One end touches both the borders of the North Wilderness and the seashore of Sea West. The other end touches the seashore of Sea East. Therefore, it starts north of Zarahemla and runs south. Because it needs to end up going in or to the opposite direction, it needs to start turning around. I believe it turns east at the city of Manti, then continues east passed the head of the river Sidon, then back northward after reaching the east wilderness unil it runs into Sea East. Therefore, you end up with the narrow strip of wilderness in a "U" shape with both Sea West and Sea East to the north, with the narrow strip of wilderness going "round about" the Nephites, or surrounding them on all sides in every direction aside from the way north into the land of Desolation.

[@philandrews2860]

Sorry folks, but any other definition than that implied by 1 Nephi 8:14 turns the 'head' of a river into a totally meaningless and highly confusing concept. Anyone reading that verse will automatically see the head as the source 'from whence it came'. Nephi also describes it as the 'head of the fountain'. Nephi never describes any other rivers flowing into that head of the fountain. Any reader would take it to mean that the actual source of the river is that fountain. That is how I have always envisioned those verses. It is the simplest and most logical explanation. To me, it is quite a stretch just to try to justify a south flowing River Sidon.

[@Eluzian86]

@philandrews2860 There's a battle at Sidon north of the head in Alma 2, and there's a battle at Sidon south of the head in Alma 43. What's your explanation if it isn't a confluence?

[@777johbro]

If that is the site of the zarahemla of old there should be a massive amount of archeological evidence at the site. I didn’t hear about any evidence at the site. Have they done lidar? Digs?

[@cheryltenney2458]

I would love to see the pictures you guys are looking at in this episode!

[@dannyd7426]

16:35 - and Michigan copper over there, too

[@jimmatheson948]

Zarahemla's name should immediately be mentioned as the, " ... City of the Red Hand ..." Zarah was Judah's last son's name. The twin at birth with a red string tied by his mother's midwife. Judah blessed him with the dominion of all the "Isles of the Sea" ... from British Isles, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland and lands of the Turtle people and People of the Serpent. (Greenland is larger than South America)

[@gingersnaps215]

No relation at all in the possible Hebrew break down of Zarahemla and “City of the Red Hand.” Zara might come from the word meaning “seed” (zer’a), and “hemla” actually means “compassion, mercy, commiserating.” So altogether “Zarahemla” possibly means “seed of compassion/mercy” or possibly even “child of compassion/mercy,” according to an article on scripture central about the possible Hebrew origins of BoM names.

[@jimmatheson948]

@@gingersnaps215 I'd laugh to guess you may wear a size 8 man's hat or women's 7 1/2 ... sew what your bobbin is full of red thread ... a needles eye can help your stitch up a hole in your pocket ... I have to beg forgiveness if my brain is expectorating hemoptimusly ...

[@cdmbcgm]

In the English coat of arms the Lion is Judah, the red Lion is Zarah-Judah, and the harp is David. I thought the red came from his red hair. The ancient Jews and Hebrew were red headed and fair. The little king of Zedekiah went to the Americas and the daughters of Zedekiah are believed to end up in the British Isles. The British Royal lineage believe they have Davidic line. Is this how Joseph Smith got his Davidic lineage?

[@Nassaldromus]

Concerning your last parenthetical comment, Greenland might look like it is larger than South America (and even Africa) on some maps - i.e. Mercator Projections, where the far Northern countries are stretched out to look huge and countries closer to the equator are likewise shrunk to look smaller. But let’s look at facts: Area: Greenland 2.166 million km sq 836330 miles sq South America 17.85 million km sq 6.89 million miles sq. Greenland, while indeed large, is not even as large as Australia, which is our smallest continent.

[@jimmatheson948]

@@Nassaldromus thank you for sharing stats I can't find ... gadflies get swatted faster ... it's a Sunday school lesson taught me in 1963 ... sleepy students jump awake when teachers speak falsely...

[@jblichfield]

Is there a digital version of the book?

[@UtahKent]

Uh... no. The Church had no official position for a reason. And I have no problem south folks thinking one or the other... BUT... When Heartlanders place BOM geography amongst the Articles of Faith, As Neville does, when they insist that you believe their interpretation or "you really don't believe what Joseph taught" or "you can believe the scholars or the Prophets", and especially when they are making a buck off the argument, they cross a line. Believe what you want, but don't make it the measure of faith and the dollar in your pocket. I believe the Book of Mormon calls that PRIESTCRAFT!

[@jimmatheson948]

Do you have address for discovery of the Zarahemla's temple sight and four mile long strait north/south wall ...

[@kylerobinson7572]

Wonderful episode! Thank you!!!

[@aerickw]

Main concern with the heartland theory… no mention of snow or hard winters.

[@sandeakilpatrick2386]

This was thousands of years ago. Weather can change. Look at the destruction before Christ visited. The land changed. Check out the old maps. The Mississippi River used to be larger. You can't put todays standards on what things were like thousands of years ago.

[@sandeakilpatrick2386]

You can't put what the world looks like today on what it was like thousands of years ago.

[@spencergiles4247]

Peter Zeihan wrote a book named The Accidental Superpower that discusses how the geography and natural resources of the United States led to it being the world’s greatest superpower. It is no way a religious book, but is the greatest evidence that this is the promised land.

[@THE_KlNG]

If im understanding this logic correctly does Manti UT = Alma 58 Manti?

[@YouTwoLookOverHere]

No, dummy.

[@WookyWarrior]

You comprehend the difference when God goes, "you will name it this," and humans go, "let's call it this," right?

[@RussellFineArt]

Nope. Brigham Young was wrong on many points, ie. the Adam God theory, blood atonement, etc. Joseph Smith testified to the Zion's Camp travelers that the ancient Nephite city of Manti was in N.E. Missouri, close to the Mississippi River.

[@philandrews2860]

@@WookyWarrior - The site across the river from Nauvoo was also called Zarahemla by early church members before D.C. 125 was given. So one can make a perfectly plausible argument that the revelation was simply to officially call it what the members had already been calling it beforehand. If the Lord had specifically also stated that it was where the ancient Zarahemla was located, then the Heartland folks would have a valid point. Were the members who called it that before D.C 125 was given inspired as to the location of the ancient city? One can believe that but there is no proof to that effect.

[@jimmatheson948]

Nile is a big enough river which you can't see the opposite shore ... like Mississippi river (Sidon) in some places

[@VincentNoot]

I’ve seen so much evidence in mesoamerica. Really makes me curious when we’re gonna find out the truth.

[@obiwonkanoli]

Totally down for heartland theory, but Lehi and his family went across the Pacific Ocean not Atlantic Ocean so it would make more sense that Moroni in his 36 years of being alone travelled from wherever they had stationed, to New York for the purpose of burying the records, not that it all took place in that area. That’s even more possible when you understand that there were complex civilizations and people all over the Americas, so he very well could have taken trade routes to get there

[@Aristotle33]

In the first five minutes of this video, Brother Neville makes a dubious claim: he states that “we know that the Hill Cumorah [the same one in the Book of Mormon] is in NY.” However, there is no one in Church history, neither Joseph Smith, nor Oliver Cowdery, who received certain knowledge of that as a fact. Early members had beliefs, but they did not receive certain knowledge. The Church has confirmed this situation historically and issued a statement about those circumstances.

[@angelalewis3645]

He has written a whole book about it, with all his research on why he is certain. It’s worth reading!

[@Aristotle33]

@@angelalewis3645 Through selective editing and a persuasive tone, the message becomes almost irresistible to Heartlanders-a bit like candy for the ears! (Smile) But on a serious note, the Church has thoroughly reviewed the evidence from multiple perspectives and has issued a statement that contradicts his 'faithful' theory. Why is the Church wrong? In this situation, Heartlanders often prioritize their own desires to believe over the caution and discernment the statement encourages. I have also reviewed his evidence myself, and with a few probing questions, his theory, that Joseph and Oliver had certain revelatory knowledge of the exact location of the hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon, quickly unravels

[@sandeakilpatrick2386]

In the Book of Mormon, Mormon says the plates were buried in Cumorah.

[@Aristotle33]

@@sandeakilpatrick2386 Certainly, Mormon 6:6 provides a fascinating insight into the role of Nephite record keepers within their incredible history. However, when Moroni visited Joseph Smith multiple times, he did not identify the hill in New York (a drumlin, in geological terms) as the same Hill Cumorah referenced in Mormon 6:6. In the Book of Mormon, the hill mentioned in Mormon 6:6 is also known as Ramah by the Jaredites and is located near the western shore of a sea, a body of water large enough to be called such. Given these geographic descriptions, the hill in New York does not meet the criteria to be considered “the hill” referenced in the Book of Mormon.

[@Aristotle33]

@@sandeakilpatrick2386 Also, to my point, the name "Cumorah" associated with the drumlin where Joseph found the plates only only began to appear around 1830 and according to accounts, was not introduced by Joseph himself.

[@davidwood3315]

The B of M doesn’t mentioned volcanoes but it doesn’t mention snow either. Interesting topic. Ultimately doesn’t matter.

[@jimmatheson948]

Perhaps building Zarahemla begins with a Bridge of Spring spanning East at Nauvoo Temple West directly across to the Zarahemla's temple site ...

[@tcatt222]

The Kansas City Museum referred to at about 30 minutes in is now closed.

[@geoffshelley2427]

A lot of stretching going on. Mormon could have written anything. He choose to talk a lot about geography. I think he wants us to figure this out. I believe eventually we will.

[@jimmatheson948]

The head of Oswego river was where Mormon's home was. Moroni was going back to his childhood home. Cumorah was on the way. Oswego empties into Ontario and beyond into St. Lawrence Seaway from Atlantic Ocean. So what Phoenicians traded these waterways and maybe Moroni survives. History wrote enough to describe when Roman legions left Britain ... about 425 AD ... around mythos of Arthur and twelve knights seated at round tables ...

[@The_Bow_Show]

Think about how deep everything was buried after the dust bowl. We need to be very humble

[@kena3234]

Is there any book like "Why We're Catholic" for Mormons? Just like a chapter by chapter best reasons and evidence for the beliefs?

[@jerrygrover8992]

Do a search on Examining "Geology and the Heartland Geography Model for the Book of Mormon" and "Mormonism with the Murph" and watch that video if you are interested in an objective scientific discussion of the geological problems with the Heartland theory. Primarily the elements that are lacking in an "earthquake only" model is the lack of an extensive mist of darkness that covers all of the land northward and land southward. Sand blows, sand boils, earthquake dust, and earthquake smog only occur approximate (adjacent or close to the fault). Also, the BOM requires that individuals be killed by the "the vapor of smoke and of darkness". The gases coming out of earthquake fissures are in low concentrations in the air and have not been documented as fatal. With respect to the New Madrid specifically and the heartland model, the BOM says the greatest damage was in the land northward, not the land southward. As is shown by the potential earthquake damage map produced by the USGS for the New Madrid fault (see other video), in order to collapse primitive structures, it must be over Level VII on the Mercalli scale. That map establishes that Level VII damage area does not extend into the areas required by the Heartland model. Ringing bells in New York and rattling tableware is a very low level of shaking. Also, one problem with the New Madrid earthquakes, partly because it is a deep fault, powerful earthquakes sufficient to cause any damage, occur for weeks and last periodically over months and even years. The BOM event is over in 3 days. Finally, the word volcano is not found in Biblical Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, so "great storm", which was used in the Bible, is an appropriate translation of the event. In the 1792 eruption of the San Martin volcano, which is the likely BOM volcano in the Mesoamerican models, it was described by the natives as a "great storm".

[@RussellFineArt]

I’ve gone through Murph’s arguments and he makes a lot of assumptions and embraces falsehoods. You’re desperately trying to pull in the volcano theory, which is verifiably false. The BofM clearly states the cites suffered severe storms, with whirlwinds/tornadoes, and the cities burned, with some being buried by water from floods, and earthquakes. And, Joseph Smith clearly testified the BofM lands being in the Heartland region, US.

[@RussellFineArt]

Murph's theory is false and tries to force volcanoes in a description by the Book of Mormon, itself, that doesn't exist. The mists of darkness came from the earthquakes, whirlwinds (tornadoes) and fires as Nephite villages were made of wood, which burns, stone doesn't burn. Villages/cities, were swallowed up by the water. Read the BofM text, it's very clear.

[@philandrews2860]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo - 1 Nephi 10:13 Speaking of the more righteous part of the people who were spared: "And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness." So it is stating that some were overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness. I take that to mean that they died from it, from the context of that verse.

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo Read it many times my friend, you may want to read it a bit more carefully. 3 Nephi is clear than some were killed by being overpowered by the vapor. 3 Nephi 10:12 12 And it was the more righteous part of the people who were saved, and it was they who received the prophets and stoned them not; and it was they who had not shed the blood of the saints, who were spared-- 3 Nephi 10:13 13 And they were spared and were not sunk and buried up in the earth; and they were not drowned in the depths of the sea; and they were not burned by fire, neither were they fallen upon and crushed to death; and they were not carried away in the whirlwind; neither were they overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness.

[@DayneGrant-z8i]

I was hoping they would define this aspect more, but they didn’t. In the BoM text itself the terminology for oceans and seas is consistent, different, and precise. It follows the same use from the Middle East. The oceans are “the many waters, the great waters, and the great deep.” Never a sea. The seas are always a different type of body of water matching those like the Dead Sea, the Sea of Galilee, and the Mediterranean or red. What we might call lakes or rivers. Check it out. It’s precise and exact. Every single example. In this sense the east or west sea is not a directional description it’s also the name of the body of water.

[@AmericanFire33]

You can let it be called Zarahemla, but I don’t believe it. It was probably at St Louis. St Louis isn’t a lonely random place like Nauvoo. It is just below the Chain of Rocks. The last place where you could cross the river on foot. It’s a natural gathering place for people because that’s where the rivers gather together. The Missouri, upper-Mississippi and Illinois all meet there and then pass the chain of rocks. St Louis used to be called mound city because there were so many mounds there. Some were bigger than Cahokia. If the Nephites put their capital up in Nauvoo over time the people would have ended up moving down to St Louis to build their big city because that’s where a city should be. What’s more read D&C 60:5. Zarahemla was called St Louis, who probably wasn’t a saint, so another city could use that name.

[@jacobt.shumwayart3269]

This video was way too short... we the people want a 6 hour conversation... :)

[@jspost3]

38:41 Niagara means Narrow Neck!!

[@josephnebeker7976]

Joseph Smith was recorded as having said, on multiple occasions, that the Book of Mormon stories occurred in North America. In fact, it has been written by others that Joseph would often show them a plot of land in the Eastern United States and identify who from the Book of Mormon was buried there or who fought there. He was never recorded as saying those events occurred in Central or South America. Always North America. With that knowledge, it boggles my mind that so many LDS people actually believe this happened in Central America. I guess they don't believe Joseph was a divinely inspired prophet, after all. Why do they remain in the church if Joseph Smith was apostate? SMH

[@Brutici]

Joseph Smith is human and therefore imperfect. simple as that. They don't think that he was an apostate, they just think that he just guessed where it happened but didn't know for sure.

[@nickallen2288]

@@Bruticitotally. It’s not like he spent 3 years having intimate conversations with AN ANGEL about the history, culture, language, and undoubtedly LOCATION of the record. That would be totally preposterous. certainly Joe was just guessing!

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

The uncomfortable answer to your correct quandary, is it never happened, anywhere. But yes, if Joseph was a prophet, he was very explicit about it. It is strange, but totally understandable that some LDS folks would go with Central America as another option.

[@dr33776]

Joseph Smith must be laughing in his grave that 200 years later his con lives on and there are professional apologists defending a story he pulled out of his hat.

[@bradleyhowell4155]

​@@nickallen2288I dont think people believe it was in mesoamerica because it matches what joseph said, but rather because they say that the details dont line up for it being in the usa.

[@haydenschaap]

Hayden, the mustache is gas bro ⛽️

[@mattmeagher365]

Cairo, Illinois and Cairo, Missouri are pronounced “KAY-rō” not like the city in Egypt or “Care-ō” syrup.

[@Whistlinwaves100]

I don’t know if people have heard this or tried to look into this but me and my dad and my old bishop have a theory that nephi built the Viking boat because that boat is such a good design that I feel like it hast to be from god and hagoth in the Book of Mormon was a curious man and re built a ship like nephi’s and went north and if the Great Lakes were the seas there was a Viking ship found in there now if they went north from there that’s were all the Vikings are up north and I wonder if they built mounds over England maybe not but a mother reason why I believe Vikings are the nephites is they have Hebrew blood in them

[@bittersweet340]

Mist of darkness was present during the visitation on the Mount of Sinai when the Lord came to meet Israel...

[@zubenelgenubi]

I believe what the BOM says about the geography of where it took place; while the geography IS secondary to the spirit and purpose of the BOM, getting worked up about where it took place is ground for a lot of misinformation!!

[@mammamiia8163]

Id like to buy the book but shipping to Finland is 90€. Really?

[@red1234321]

Heartland just makes so much sense, c’mon! 🇺🇸

[@trackcoachmac]

There's only about 40 reasons why the heartland theory doesn't work but I don't want to fight.

[@joshgregory5929]

Please, throw down.

[@StevenODell-ff4ux]

It's a combination, like Lance Weaver is showing. ALL of the Americas is the promised land, according to Joseph.

[@robertbarrus8400]

3 Nephi 8:23__"...for the space of three days that there was no light seen;..."

[@BradenWBarty]

The belief among many LDS leaders that Christopher Columbus is the "man among the Gentiles" mentioned in 1 Nephi 13:12 is rooted in the interpretation that he was divinely inspired to discover the Americas. This scripture describes a man who was "separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters," and many leaders, including Brigham Young and James E. Talmage, have explicitly linked this figure to Columbus, asserting that he was moved by the Spirit of God to embark on his voyages. They argue that his discoveries were essential for preparing the way for the Restoration of the Gospel and the gathering of Israel. However, since Columbus never set foot in North America, this interpretation suggests that the events described in the Book of Mormon likely took place in Central America, where significant civilizations existed that align more closely with the text's descriptions. Thus, if Columbus is indeed viewed as a prophetic figure within this context, it further supports the argument that the Book of Mormon's narrative is geographically situated in Central America rather than North America.

[@BradenWBarty]

Plus, DC 125: 2"Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it.". Is he claiming that's where Zarahemla actually is? If so , then the city of Bountidul is in Utah, just north of Salt Lake City, put a pin there too.

[@BradenWBarty]

Furthermore: Climate. IOWA AND ILLINOSE GETS COLD! The Book of Mormon mentions snow only once, and that reference is during the Lehites' time in the Old World where they did see snow . This lack of mention suggests the book’s events did not occur in a cold climate like the Great Lakes area, where winters are severe and would likely have been noted. John Lund argues that, like the Plymouth pilgrims, if The Book of Mormon events had taken place in New York, references to the bitter cold and snow would have been present. Instead, the text frequently describes heat, indicating a warmer climate. The Lehites, who came from the hot Middle East and crossed deserts, also noted the heat in their new land. If they had arrived in a colder region, it would likely have been acknowledged in the record. Some events described in The Book of Mormon would be implausible in a cold Great Lakes setting. In Alma 14, Alma and Amulek suffered “many days” in prison without clothing, in a period calculated to be around January. The average temperature in areas proposed as Zarahemla, like Hamilton, Ontario, drops to 31°F by day and 19°F at night, making survival in such conditions unlikely. Conversely, the Mesoamerican lowlands average in the mid-60s during winter, a climate more suitable for enduring such conditions without clothing. The clothing worn by the Lamanites and Nephites further implies a warm climate. The text describes them wearing loincloths and “leathern girdles,” attire unsuitable for freezing temperatures. Enos portrays the Lamanites as “wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins,” and Zeniff describes them as “naked, save it were a leathern girdle.” Such minimal clothing would be life-threatening in a region with harsh winters, yet the Lamanites’ attire is consistent throughout the text, suggesting they inhabited a warmer area. Descriptions of battle attire reinforce this idea. Lamanites wore “skins girded about their loins” and rarely more than loincloths, leading to higher mortality rates due to their exposure in combat. The Book of Mormon mentions “thick clothing” only in battle as armor, similar to the Mayans’ use of thick padding for protection, not for warmth. The only instances of heavier clothing occur within this context of warfare, not everyday wear. Moreover, The Book of Mormon’s wars were not seasonal; battles are described as taking place continuously and across different months of the year, further suggesting a temperate climate that would permit such prolonged conflicts. The Lamanites even fought in the sixth and seventh months without concerns for extreme cold, contrasting with climates that experience prolonged winters and limited seasonal warfare. This evidence collectively suggests a warm, consistent climate, aligning with the characteristics of ancient Mesoamerica, not the colder northeastern United States.

[@JD-pr1et]

​@@BradenWBartyNothing there notes a connection with ancient Zarahemla.

[@blainehowes]

@@BradenWBarty The climate of North America was a lot hotter 2000 years ago. Around 1500 years ago the world entered a mini ice age and we're still crawling out of it.

[@CryptoSurfer]

@@BradenWBarty Was Bountiful Utah given its name by revelation?

[@davidcfrogley]

Volcanoes. Proponents of Mesoamerica interpret the text to claim it says that at the death of Christ, the Nephites experienced a three-hour earthquake, and only a volcano can produce that. However, the text does not state there was a three-hour earthquake, but rather a three-hour period during which there were earthquakes (plural) and storms and lightnings, etc.

[@harmonillustration]

I call it the "3 Wise Men" phenomenon. Tradition says that 3 wise men came to Jesus. But, that's not necessarily true. It just says that "wise men" came and brought 3 gifts. We just assume that it was one gift per person. We assume 3 gifts = 3 dudes. But, it could have been just 2 wise men. Or, it could have been 20. We don't know, because it doesn't specifically say. Same thing here. There was a 3 hour period of craziness that involved earthquakes, so people assume one earthquake lasted for 3 hours.

[@mikedrumm1669]

Ok a sunken ship in the missippi river is one thing. But you’re talking about the missippi river having whole cities sunken in it.

[@Eluzian86]

Ancient cities. The city of David in the Middle East was 40 acres in size. The largest sand boil / sand blow in the world occurred in the Bootheel of Missouri. It is 1.4 miles long, covering 136 acres. Probably 30 deep or so. That one sand blow could have buried three ancient cities by itself. Reelfoot Lake is 15,500 acres up to 18 feet deep. It formed in a matter of hours, and at least one Native American camp drowned from its formation during the New Madrid Earthquakes in 1811. As far as ancient cities go, the New Madrid faultline would have no issue providing the destruction of 3 Nephi.

[@jaelleerica]

I live in hannibal mo now - but during the great flood of 93 i still lived with my parents and we lived in a town about 8 miles south of hannibal right on the river. If the sny levee hadn't been compromised and broken-my town would be in the river and it would be completely ruined. In fact- multiple communities along the Mississippi Riverfront were wiped out and are no longer a thing. I'm not quite sure you understand the strength of the Mississippi river- they don't call it the "mighty Mississippi " for nothing. We're also only an hour downstream from nauvoo and we were in the nauvoo stake up until last year when the church created a new stake here in Missouri - but I can tell you with all of my soul- that heavenly father protects the city of Joseph. As a teenager I helped sandbag down on the flats ( the part of the town where most of the historic homes are) during 93- and in my opinion- the Joseph Smith homestead , the nauvoo house, and the red brick store for sure and possibly the mansion house - should have been flooded with unreal damage- also the Smith family cemetery is even lower and closer to the river. That DEFINITELY should have been underwater and no more. At the very least - there should have been substantial ddamage and loss- yet you would never even know that the great flood of 93 had happened. We had major flooding in 2008 also- i was now a mom with 3 kids under 5- and once again I was in nauvoo sandbagging only this time my sweet babies were helping * except the youngest- she kept inserting herself into the little picnic groups with youth from an out of state stake who had come to help- they were wonderful to my little 2 year old sassypants lol who made her way around the groups to sneak chips out of their bags. 😂 the kids were trying si hard not to laugh- she totally thought she was being so sneaky. * Heavenly father protects the city of Joseph. But you might look up the great flood of 93.. that will show you how the mighty Mississippi can indeed "sink " entire towns. -jl

[@terryflint7557]

It looks like you weren’t able to locate the scripture about the three days of darkness; it is found in 3 Nephi 3:23. Do we know where Lehi’s family landed in the Americas?

[@LaurieBrown-e8v]

Fort Madison, Iowa.

[@awfulwaffle1341]

Sorry. But I just can’t take heartlanders seriously.

[@RussellFineArt]

Do some research on the Maya, whom archaeologists have confirmed, sailed from Cambodia-Thailand region, to Central America, around 2,000 B.C.E., and brought with them their stepped pyramid architecture, culture, animal deity, their religion of human sacrifice to their deity, and DNA as pure-blood Mayans are directly related to pure-blood people of S.E. Asia, and have nothing to do with the Mound Builders of the Great Lakes and Mississippi River region, U.S. Joseph Smith was asked by the Rochester Observer, just after the Book of Mormon was published, what it was. He wrote to them, and said by way of commandment from God, and signed the letter, that "the Book of Mormon is a record of the ancestors of our western tribes of Indians." Joseph wrote this while in Kirkland, Ohio and the Native Americans who lived just west of him were the Sac, Fox, Sioux Indians who lived throughout Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri areas, where Joseph sent missionaries to, to testify to them that they are the descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples, and where Joseph personally testified to the same people, the same thing. Joseph never sent a single missionary to Central or South American and never spoke of the Maya, or their offshoots, the Aztec or Inca. The Book of Mormon lands are absolutely in the lower Great Lakes and Mississippi River region, U.S.

[@Eluzian86]

The Four Cardinal Seas and the Narrow Strip of Wilderness: The Mesoamerica Model and the internal models make huge assumptions in their interpretations of the scriptural text that I believe gives them the wrong conclusions regarding the four cardinal seas and the narrow strip of wilderness. - Sea North and Sea South are not mentioned by name in Alma 22. They're mentioned a generation later in Helaman 3:8 when there was a mass migration from Zarahemla to settle the land of Desolation. When it is talking about the people covering the land from Sea South to Sea North, and from Sea West to Sea East, I believe it's referring to the land of Desolation, not the Book of Mormon lands as a whole. - It is assumed the narrow strip of wilderness is a natural feature of geography that happens to correspond to the borders between the Nephites and Lamanites. It is a wilderness bordering other wildernesses, which tells me it's a wilderness where nobody lives as compared to the east, west, and north wildernesses where Lamanites dwell. I believe it's simply a "no-man's-land" or "buffer zone" between two groups who are regularly in conflict. - The narrow strip of wilderness also has a specific shape, which helps us understand the extent of the land of Nephi as well. It is seen by the words "round about," which means: on all sides or in all directions; surrounding someone or something; in or to the opposite direction. In Alma 22:27, the King of the Lamanites is sending a Proclamation from all sides of the city of Nephi in every direction even to the sea, on the east and on the west. It is an assumption that it's referring to the Sea East and Sea West. It could simply be directional and refer to a body of water in that direction, which could be different than Sea East and Sea West. When tied in context with the term "round about" in Alma 22:27, the seashore would extend from directly east of the city if Nephi, then southward and around until it is longitudinally west of the city of Nephi. It doesn't extend directly west of the city of Nephi because that's where the land of Nephi borders the west wilderness. The land of Nephi would then have seashore to the east and south, and land to the west and north. - The narrow strip of wilderness has two ends. One end touches both the borders of the North Wilderness and the seashore of Sea West. The other end touches the seashore of Sea East. Therefore, it starts north of Zarahemla and runs south. Because it needs to end up going in or to the opposite direction, it needs to start turning around. I believe it turns east at the city of Manti, then continues east past the head of the river Sidon, then back northward after reaching the East Wilderness unil it runs into Sea East. Therefore, you end up with the narrow strip of wilderness in a "U" shape with both Sea West and Sea East to the north, with the narrow strip of wilderness going "round about" the Nephites, or surrounding them on all sides in every direction aside from the way north into the land of Desolation. I believe you can't take the Heartland Model seriously because you may be believing in a different model based on an interpretation with serious flaws in it.