Jonathan Pageau: What atheists get wrong about the Bible, religion and Jordan Peterson

Jonathan Pageau is a French Canadian icon carver, public speaker and KZbinr exploring the symbolic patterns that underlie our experience of the world. He's also the editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal and host of the Symbolic World blog and podcast.
Jonathan is also known for his friendship with Jordan Peterson, another thinker invested in symbolism, psychology and pointing people back to Christianity as the modern West navigates a ‘meaning crisis’.
Jonathan talk to Justin and Belle about meaning, symbolism, atheism and the meaning crisis as we ask whether we can re-enchant… just about everything!
Jonathan Pageau: thesymbolicworld.com/
For Re-Enchanting: www.seenandunseen.com/podcast
There’s more to life than the world we can see. Re-Enchanting is a podcast from Seen & Unseen recorded at Lambeth Palace Library, the home of the Centre for Cultural Witness. Justin Brierley and Belle Tindall engage faith and spirituality with leading figures in science, history, politics, art and education. Can our culture be re-enchanted by the vision of Christianity?

[@janethorsman194]

Been listening to Jonathan for years, but this is probably one of his best interviews. Can’t put my finger on why. Did they just ask the perfect questions?

[@gentlemanbronco3246]

I think it’s also because Jonathan has been honing his language over the years. He still talks about the same things it’s just that his speech has become better and better.

[@06rtm]

I think its because they both like Jonathan and they understand his perspective

[@carlotapuig]

I agree, firstly the hosts were already very familiar with his work. Secondly, Pageau has greatly increased his ability to convey his ideas to the public in the last 1-2 years.

[@hellomate639]

@@gentlemanbronco3246He's learning to communicate things that are very, very hard to communicate.

[@rjpattoh357]

​@@gentlemanbronco3246His sword has become very sharp.

[@MattiasLidborn]

After watching a video with Jonathan, I always think, 'I've got to re-watch this,' even though I have listened to him a lot and for a long time. What he says is always so pregnant, and the more I understand and connect the dots, the richer and more reasonable it becomes. I am really looking forward to hearing his take on Aion. Thanks for hosting him 🙏

[@ibelieve3111]

Try listening to Jonathan at .5x speed, so much better 😂

[@jacobgray676]

I'm pumped for Aion, too. His brother's book "The Language of Creation" helped me tremendously to understand Jonathan. Highly recommend.

[@jacobgray676]

Oh, and check out Spencer Klavan. The dude is a genius.

[@MattiasLidborn]

@@ibelieve3111 Sounds crazy fast😅

[@MattiasLidborn]

@@jacobgray676 Absolutely, Matthieu's book is very helpful, its one of those book that deserve a re-read over and over. I actually made a review of The Language of Creation on my channel.

[@michaeldunn4847]

Congratulations, this interview contains the clearest expression of Jonathan Pageau's understanding of the world I have heard, and I have been listening to him for a long time.

[@tobycoxon8138]

I find the Bible Project describes symbolic thinking very clearly

[@06rtm]

I just commented the same thing. They mesh very well together.

[@MrCollierw]

Yes, it's really claried his thinking/ideas to me. As I've not really listened through his youtube channel videos

[@acr164]

Very interesting discussion. I am a Roman Catholic who has been in all sorts of protestant churches before, recently, returning to RC church. This iconic meaning of liturgy is something which draws us out of our selves. I am drawn into the reality of Christ in Heaven. It is much more profound than the intellectual satisfaction of scriptural teaching and a few hymns - none of which is bad but not quite enough. In the Mass, we are not told what the scriptures mean in that clever way which the preachers do so well; we are rather left to hear Christ in His Words as they speak to us. And we join the angels in worshiping Him, even to accepting Him in his flesh and blood. These are not hings which require great intellect; it is more a thing of the heart. But it does make me aware of who I am; loved since before the creation of the world - by this God who is so much more than we could imagine yet very concerned about each of us, no matter how little or poor.

[@Zoomo2697]

Wonderfully put. “Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples , and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the altar, and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His Passion. Its value does not depend on him who says it, or on him who hears it; it depends on Him who is the One High Priest and Victim, Jesus Christ our Lord. With Him we are united, in spite of our nothingness; in a certain sense, we lose our individuality for the time being; we unite our intellect and our will, our heart and our soul, our body and our blood, so intimately with Christ, that the Heavenly Father sees not so much us with our imperfection, but rather sees us in Him, the Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The Mass is for that reason the greatest event in the history of mankind; the only Holy Act which keeps the wrath of God from a sinful world , because it holds the Cross between heaven and earth, thus renewing that decisive moment when our sad and tragic humanity journeyed suddenly forth to the fullness of supernatural life.” Venerable Fulton J. Sheen, “Calvary and the Mass” God Bless from Scotland.

[@sebwoz8766]

I enjoy both of your comments very much. I too was raised Catholic. Immigrated from Poland to Canada as a child, and frequented various protestant, buddhist, and hindu. temples/churches across the world; whilst taking the Catholic Bride of Christ for granted. There was always a lack that I sensed in these places, which I had a difficult time putting into words until people like Peterson and Pageau started to expose my naive appreciation of liberal, protestant dogma and eastern traditions (although both do have various goods that they offer). Then Hilaire Belloc, GK Chesterton, Benedict the 16th, St. Karol Wojtyla, CS Lewis, JR Tolkien, Aleksandr Solzhenitzen, and Bishop Barron (among others) further deepened my appreciation of the Catholic Faith, and its absolute reliance on and celebration of Christ's transubstantiation of bread and wine into his body and blood. It is the closest we can regularly come to Christ on this earth. The mystery baffles me. Thank you again for your comments.

[@DoubleOhSilver]

@@sebwoz8766 wine*. And thanks for sharing too

[@sebwoz8766]

@@DoubleOhSilver lol. I must've had a miracle-at-the-wedding-in-Cana slip.

[@sushi0085]

I’m raised catholic but I’m atheist on religious claims, and agnostic on deistic beliefs. But I can respect what you said and your world view in this regard.

[@LyLiLe]

I love listening to Pageau because it is not about anything except trying to articulate ideas that he knows and deeply believes. Foundational, ancient, and applicable.

[@WorldofElsuon]

There are two "Houses" in reality: the Upper House and the Lower House. Science is the primary tool for studying the Lower House. Put simply, science is the tool used to identify, test, measure, and catalog things that cannot change their minds because they have no minds to change. Therefore, science is the study of enslaved things: fields, forces, and phenomena that cannot defy their purpose. Science is merely the study of mechanisms. The Upper House is where all the fun is.

[@justinluther2924]

Seen & Unseen up in here interviewing all of the people I love

[@06rtm]

Pretty sure I’ve listened to every Pageau interview he has ever done, and this is in my opinion the very best. Long overdue, congrats. Do it again soon.

[@jennytr5056]

I just want to plug Jonathan's book, Snow White and the Widow Queen. It's absolutely enchanting. I've read it to my 6-year-old daughter repeatedly, and read it for myself too :) My expectations for this book were so high that I knew that when I finally got it I would be disappointed. But when it was in my hands at last, my expectations were exceeded. The illustrations are lovely, and the story hits hard. If you can get a copy, I highly highly recommend it.

[@kipling1957]

Belle didn’t quite get it, saying we see patterns as things (objects) to which we later ascribe meaning. No, meaning comes first from patterns, which we then label as objects.

[@AmyMaris]

Jonathon. You may be the theologian of the hour. I’m praying for you to fulfill all that Christ has for you here on earth.

[@patrickselden5747]

What a wonderfully thought-provoking conversation! Thank you very much, y'all... ☝️😎

[@Gamling80]

I am a Swedish Christian who grew up in a Baptist church and in the western world's most secular society. I read the bible early and for me there has never been an Issue that things in the bible is written in a poetic way and with meaning, and still the stories are literally and historically true. God is outside our time and God used the people and histories in the bible to create the story he wanted. But often you can read how for instance the Israelites did not follow God's plan and God had to adjust it.

[@stewartpatton2179]

What is your evidence for your claim that the Bible is literally and historically true?

[@kingoflebanon1986]

​@@stewartpatton2179you don't care about it

[@stewartpatton2179]

@@kingoflebanon1986 huh?

[@jhurt3824]

@@stewartpatton2179why do you think she owes an explanation of her beliefs to you? All atheists have the same belief. They play the where the proof game. Just not how faith works. And here's a better question. If atheists have it all figured out and don't believe in god then why would such intelligent people spend so much time arguing against something they believe to be unreal. Seems counterproductive. And an absolute waste of time to you brights to argue with us lowly stupid humans

[@comeintotheforest]

@@stewartpatton2179what do you think literally means? What do you think historically means? Have you actually listened to the video you’re commenting on?

[@hrossaman]

Wow, your graciousness is so alluring. I'm used to Jay Dyer's caustic hardcore philosophy on Orthodoxy. Different personalities. Different gifts.

[@lilnapkin462]

Some people can only be reached one way or the other. Many people I have encountered rebel at the thought of a world that isn’t rank materialism and think that is the logical position. For people like that, systematically exposing their presuppositions and cognitive dissonance can work better. That is where Jay excels and we can learn a lot from him.

[@hrossaman]

@@lilnapkin462 Very good point

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Dyer suuuucks on religion. He's a bit of a twåt.

[@andreys1793]

Intro has me hooked. This will be great.

[@MrRickkramer]

Glory to God! I was just talking to my woman about Matthew 11 where Jesus talks about His yoke being easy, and now I resume this video about 15 minutes later and Jonathan refers to this passage. ☦️🙏🏻 there are no coincidences, God plans all things with such a splendor, is amazing!

[@edz1624]

"The answer is that we must never allow the rot to begin. We must, on pain of idiocy, deny from the very outset the idea that 'LOOKING AT' is, by its own nature, intrinsically truer or better than 'LOOKING ALONG'. One must look both along and at everything. " -- Some smart dude

[@markrobinson2923]

This was the first of your interviews that I watched and I immediately looked for another that would give confirmation of my need to sub, which I found! ThanQ!

[@JohnnyHofmann]

Pageau is awesome!

[@alangiaconelli2919]

Good talk guys!! As to ritual or any thing similar with meaning. Who gets to say do this to mean that and then I come along later and think I understand meaning but why make me do something that you came up with. I can come up with something too. I thought we got away from pomp to embrace purity. That is we either live by the meaning or not and don’t have do something to make us think we live by the meaning.

[@MrJoey1971]

Richard Dawkins has a shallow superficial understanding of religion. No one has ever accused Dawkins of steelmanning.

[@bankiey]

Dawkins might answer that his problem with religions is that no one can steelman them epistemologically

[@abj136]

His insistence on only epistemology is the blindspot that prevents him understanding other perspectives.@@bankiey

[@bankiey]

@@abj136 can you steel man “epistemology”?

[@neyneynanamo2071]

It seems to me like Dawkins never grew up. Both in attitude and argumentation it`s just like listening to a hyped up teenager. He gets to people because people want him to be right, as his view absolves anyone of any responsibility, but the fruits of his view are rotten and it shows more and more.

[@hrvad]

​@@bankieyI believe that I can steelman the epistemology of Christianity, Dawkins' naturalist science, and that of the Woke. There's nothing difficult about this, except you need to actually understand the people you're steelmanning. In that light Dawkins might actually have a problem steelmanning Christianity. The two biggest, related problems with the new atheists, and I used to be one, are that: 1) They aren't very good philosophers. Which is why they want some STEM kinda scientific proof of God. But here's the catch: how do you prove math, logic and the reason cosmological constants exist with science? Don't get me wrong, you can certainly discover and precisely describe these 'things" scientifically, but what are they and where do they come from? Metaphysical/ontological questions just aren't scientific, but philosophical questions, but sometimes the believers in Scientism will arrogantly say that philosophy is just for failed scientists. 2) New atheists play the same language games that the Dialectical Left out of Hegel and Marx play. Truth isn't really what is at stake, but operational success. It's just about crashing the antithesis into the thesis and watching what happens. Hence the relentless, scathing, almost hateful criticism of religion and religious people. It's just that instead of Capitalism, the new atheists let religion play the role of Capitalism. Otherwise it's the same bloody approach. Like when Dawkins dismisses God, because if everything that exists has a cause, then who created God? It's a silly question, because the Christian God is the prime mover, the uncaused cause, he is Being itself. He's arguing a straw man. Or when atheists regurgitate dumb stuff like "the Bible says pi is 3, how dumb is that, bruh. LOL." when the Bible does nothing of the sort. They care about "winning", not the truth. On another level new atheists have partaken in the same double speak that the Woke, Dialectical Left uses. Such as when Dawkins claims that faith is "belief without evidence". That is, he covertly defines faith as "blind faith". Yet Christians do care a lot about the evidence, so the paragon of intellect, Dawkins himself, only knocks over yet another straw man. In fact, Christians are the bravest people I know, because their faith is actually falsifiable. If Jesus didn't die and wasn't resurrected, then they say that their faith was in vain. That means the God hypothesis is in fact a scientifically valid hypothesis. And here the kicker: go watch Dawkins on Peter Boghossian's channel. Here Peter asks him if he can tell him what evidence would convince him of God's existence (and thus refute his naturalism/atheism), and Dawkins CANNOT come up with anything ... which means his atheist hypothesis is in fact scientifically invalid. And I've seen Peter Atkins and others say much the same in interviews. So these arrogant, high and mighty, science-worshipping atheists can't even meet the basic requirement of science that whatever you believe in, evidence must exist that can prove you wrong.

[@Jesseraine]

Great to Jonathan on here. Thanks Justin!

[@francestaylor9156]

6:55 - ironically, physics is very much a symbolic world too. Very rarely are you solving for actual values. You’re solving for extremely theoretical abstractions all laid out in mathematic symbolism. I often felt like I was staring at the mathematical code of reality created by God. It was so fascinating and so awe inspiring. And what’s even more interesting is the further you go into physics, the more you see God but also the limitations of not only man but of observation itself. In quantum mechanics, the act of observing what electrons are doing causes it to change what’s happening to the electron. Thus, we can sometimes ONLY reflect physics symbolically or through observation we will change the outcome of what is happening. Everything is potential in physics. Things are not what they are until the wave function has collapsed, until you give something an actual number value. Everything is symbolic. Even the formula for the volume of a sphere 4/3(pi)r^3. It’s just an abstraction until you give r an actual number. And as humans when we look at a sphere in reality, we’re understanding the surface area, density, and volume all at once just through holding it. Physics is just much more methodical and abstract about it. We feel gravity. Physics calculates how gravity acts upon the object. Physics is just a tool to put into mathematics what we instinctively intuit about reality. I don’t know why there’s so much focus on basing reality on physics. It’s really the other way around. We use physics to understand reality in a mathematically abstract way. That helps us to calculate things in minutiae which helps us develop better tools. We don’t base reality on woodworking or blacksmithing so I don’t know why we base reality on tool making like physics.

[@soulfuzz368]

It’s metaphor all the way down.

[@danzohattori]

Thanks for sharing this explanation.

[@jpesmar]

That was one the greatest short texts I've read. Thank you for taking the time to put that into words in a way most people can understand.

[@gandalfo]

I like the thoughts you laid out here. On thing I’d like to add-people often like to think that we stumbled upon math, that we got access to the source code but to me math doesn’t represent reality, it represents the way our minds are ordered. Math is the grammar of our minds-it’s how we perceive reality. Our human UI represents reality in a mathematical way, it may not be that way in reality or in different levels of manifestation.

[@gandalfo]

One other thought-metaphors are models and models are just more elaborated metaphors that govern how we think about things and behind what we mean when we say, “oh I understand that”. We don't realize that much of what we consider to be facts are not facts-they're models-they're theory. Scientists make up models to explain how things work. Models are just metaphors for information-they're just images/symbols that are attempting to point at something that they are perceiving to exist in reality. In the beginning, people are aware that these are just models. Over time, we begin to believe it rather than realize it's just a model-eventually this belief becomes dogma. "Of course electrons are chunks of mass with a charge-everybody knows that!" Our beliefs create blind spots that hinder further understanding. When we encounter information that does not cohere to our worldview we disregard it because, everybody knows it does not act that way. We need to be aware of this if we are to have greater understanding and growth.

[@suppression2142]

Brilliant! We need Jordan Hall next and maybe Chris Langan. I feel geniunely a conversation between those 3 men, Jordan Hall, Johnathan Pageau and Chris Langan and maybe even John Vervaeke as well would be one of the most profound conversations of all time.

[@JordanGreenhall]

I’d be delighted. In fact, Bishop Maximus is trying to wrangle me, Vervaeke and Pageau into a trip to the mountains.

[@Matterful]

Take him up on it ​@@JordanGreenhall!!

[@suppression2142]

​@JordanGreenhall That would be so mind blowing! I'm so glad to hear you would be willing to do it.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

Nice to see Chris getting back out there.

[@adelinacod5683]

Greetings from a Christian orthodox romanian Family! God bless you!💖💞🌼

[@thewrightoknow]

Well done folks, excellent questions!

[@Art2GoCanada]

Thanks for the clarity Jonathan, your explanations have rocketed me into the 4th dimension of existence. 📘🙏❤️✨

[@suppression2142]

Would love Johnathan to make a review on Aion.

[@thattimestampguy]

*Introduction* 0:01 Meaning comes in Patterns. Meaning is inevitable. 0:29 We Live In A World of Experience. *Who Is Johnathan Pageau?* 1:08 _Re-Enchanting_ A talk show hosted by Belle Tindell and Justin Brierley 2:00 Johnathan Pageau: Icon Carver, Public Speaker & KZbinr. 3:03 _Re-Enchanting_ is usually Recorded on The Rooftop of Lambeth Palace Library, so Belle and Justin ask the guest: "What have you been reading lately?" 4:27 Johnathan Pageau's Studying of Symbolic Meaning. *Johnathan Pageau's friend Jordan Peterson* 5:10 Johnathan Pageau met Jordan Peterson in 2015. Johnathan Pageau thinks that Jordan Peterson offered "the last part of the bridge" that was missing in the way Johnathan Pageau talked about things, this helped Pageau. *Meaning In Reality* 6:28 A Brief Primer of What Johnathan Pageau means by "The Symbolic World." 6:48 Helping people understand symbolism. Meaning is inevitable. 7:30 Accurate Description of Reality. 8:00 We Live In A World of Experience. *The World is Full of Stuff* 8:56 Patterns of Symbolism. 9:32 The Problem with Perception. The World is Full of Stuff! There is no limit to the amount of description we can do with the world. The Human Person perceives The Unity that constitutes a multiplicity. 10:32 Parts with Parts, Patterns, Fractals. 11:53 Darwinian Evolution, "Fitness to survive." The Persistence of Being. Beings want to continue to persist and perpetuate itself. *Logos, Identity & Purpose, Experience* 13:13 Saint Maximos The Confessor. Logos. Everything has a Logos. Selection is purposeful to the perpetuation of being. 14:05 Identity & Purpose go together. 14:21 Reasons for things to exist. Hierarchy of Importance. 15:14 The Reality of How We Experience, How We Remember. 15:47 Trying to speak how a secular person can understand while coming from Christianity. *Richard Dawkins* 16:40 "It's BS" 17:35 "Give me a proof of God that is equivalent to this formula." 18:15 "You can't prove that these giant beings exist except for that kind of multiplicity moving into unity." 19:10 Microcosm, a being has to be a microcosm necessarily, a being has to be a microcosm of the situation they are in. 19:45 Race and IQ, a minefield. 20:07 Hierarchy of Values implies The Feel of The Sacred pressing down on you. *Patterns* 22:22 Things play themselves out. 23:23 New Atheist Woke Culture. 24:07 The Magic Is Visible Again. The Magic Is Possible Again. 24:54 Return of Sacred Behavior during C-vid. 26:30 Secular Thinkers pointing back to Christianity. 26:58 The Significance of The Bible. 27:46 Is it useful fiction?" 29:26 Patterns of Attention. 30:11 "Why does it bother you that it happened?" *Truth of The Christian World* 30:47 Luis Perry, Tom Holland. 31:34 What can help a Dis-Enchanted Person to step into Christianity? 32:53 The Resurrection Happened. 33:59 We Live In The Christian World. Denying Christ undermines Everything We Care About. 34:37 What you end up with is perversion. 36:20 "At The Origin of Something, there is always a Mystery." 37:24 The Resurrection Explains Everything. The World Is Held By Self-Emptying. You Sacrifice Something, You Sacrifice Yourself. *Hierarchy* 38:31 "I am a Hierarchy person. I believe in Hierarchy." 39:07 A Description in Meaning. Hierarchy of Beings that is joined together into this Central Focus. 39:48 People abstract themselves. 40:18 Including the measurer in the system. 40:43 Name, Goodness, Identity. A Name and It's Goodness are Identical. I don't want to die. The Name shows immediately that they are good. 41:35 Joining Heaven and Earth. 42:09 Scientific Method. *Orthodox Christianity* 43:16 Eastern Orthodox. 43:57 44:50 Meaning. Repetition. 45:30 Wholistic Vision of Reality. 47:59 Opened Up Faith for intelligent 21st Century people. 48:39 The Desert of Secularism. 50:50 The Majesty of Cathedrals. 51:46 53:39 Me Me Me. Pride. Self-Referential. 54:10 Ideological Political Causes are insufficient. 55:08 Rest. 55:49 It's not about you anymore. Worship has to do with Christ, above. 56:38 God's Yolk Is Light. 57:24 Martin Shaw. *Icon-Carving* 58:28 Johnathan Pageau's Love of Christian Art and Scripture. 59:27 Pattern of Reality at every level. Fairy Tales. 1:00:39 Thank you Johnathan Pageau. 1:01:00

[@twelfthhour]

What the heck? Best Pageau interview by faaaaaar! ❤ Much respect 🙏

[@joolz5747]

I love this kind of thing with Jonathan. Jonathan has the richness of the spirit that permeates everybody’s heart and mind and soul. If we listen to him and really think about what he says we will open to God! People are very literal and that is a difficult way to live if you want to know God. The world we live in is literal. But we must go deeper into our souls into our hearts and hear and see the invisible. The invisible and the silent are there and we don’t see it or hear it. WE MUST SEEK IT!! Thank you Jonathan! THANK YOU ALL!

[@stephenwinter5958]

Three examples of contemporary re-enchanted architecture come to mind immediately. One is the way in which St Martin in the Bullring in Birmingham was brought back into the heart of the city through the redesign of the Bullring centre. Another is Richard Foster's Millennium Bridge in London that takes you from the South Bank of London into the City by an approach to St Paul's cathedral. And the third is the Church of the Holy Family in Barcelona whose building has continued through all the upheavals in Spanish history over many years.

[@MrSeanwarman]

This was excellent, seen all his videos but still finding Pageau super compelling

[@phonepunk7888]

"There are all these things you cannot prove historically" I was thinking about this earlier. Science does not have a way to tell how old a person is to the date. Think about it. They can guess based on bone structure, etc. But it's not like you can go to the doctor and have them tell you the day you were born from a blood sample. This is why birth certificates are so important. Basic, super important facts about our lives only exist physically as the written word.

[@tomg_2]

We’re with you Jonathan.

[@markrobinson2923]

Around 24 min: I am reminded of a line from Siphokazi Jonas' piece "The Jesus Effect". Darkness is not the absence of light, but sight.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

Would love to see Pageua speak with Aaron Abke

[@James-gf8es]

Talking of re-enchantment, Belle is a nice start

[@comeintotheforest]

This is Pageau at some of his best

[@cidklutch]

Jonathan Pageau is my spirit animal

[@samdung5630]

Hahaha

[@imacg5]

If there's one thing I agree with Jordan Hall, it's his proposal of "Sovereignty of the Soul". You can't just force your "help" onto others.

[@lilnapkin462]

1000% Which means when you enter into a romantic relationship, you need to be ok with the person just as they are. Because change may never happen. Often, change only occurs when someone hits rock bottom.

[@sparkomatic]

Enchanting talk :-) Thanks -s

[@jasonisham9948]

Reminds me of Dallas Willard's Divine Conspiracy where he describes the Sermon on the Mount as Jesus saying we are flying upside down. The Kingdom re-orients to the horizon.😊

[@malhenning1608]

Seeing as I was actually there (the 80's) when Dawkins Atheists came about. At the time the protestant church decided that creationism was a good hill to die on. The Catholics knowing that a lot of good men will literally burn on the stake before giving up on evolution wisely sat that one out.

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Awesome convo. Btw the first subtitles catch your attention as they are unique style but then you can’t read it bc it’s behind him 😂

[@serenasztein5065]

God bless you Jonathan

[@lukehegdal6627]

Is that a Miyamoto Musashi print in the background behind you Mr. Pageau?

[@BrendanTietz]

In reference to the opening question: No one should read Jung directly imo unless you’re willing to wrestle with it for years. I mistakenly read Jung, tossed it out, only to read Murray stein and Kingsley’s work on Jung after to realize everyone nearly misinterprets Jung. Jung is quintessentially a gnostic though and his psychology is a form of spirituality so if Jonathan is 50/50 he’s probably sensing some of that in it

[@leedufour]

Thanks everyone!

[@kerrief3414]

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then shall I know, even as also I am known.

[@arno_groenewald]

It would be interesting to see you lot speak with Chris Langan.

[@angelicatitus]

Loved this!

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@zhuangjingmei1168]

I love that fish icon behind Jonathan!

[@Rob1955B]

For all the good things Jonathan says, another interpretation is possible without losing the pattern of reality that he spoke of. If you say that the resurrection happened but is not provable in a materialistic way, you open up the possibility that we are all incarnations like Christ and that he was someone showing the way.

[@Countcordeaux]

That is basically the Gnostic thesis.

[@francestaylor9156]

Isn’t that what saints sort of are? People that are considered extremely notable that followed the path and that are able to teach others what they’ve learned by being on that path?

[@francestaylor9156]

@@Countcordeaux- Gnosticism has a tendency to forget about submission to God. Christ’s example which most people seem to skim past is that the night before His crucifixion, He prayed to God asking to not have to go through it the next day. And each time He submitted to God’s path. In that way, Christ was very much human. He didn’t want to go through the horrors He was to face. But He did it anyway because God asked Him to. Jesus always had a choice and He chose to surrender to God. And that’s the ultimate difference between the Gnostics and Christ. Yes everyone has the potential to become a saint but to become a saint means to fully submit to God. Not about becoming a god yourself.

[@Rob1955B]

@@francestaylor9156 I would see my position as claiming we are not "a" God but that we are essentially expressions of God in a carnal body - incarnate.

[@christhewritingjester3164]

45:19 As a new fiction author that's been in that world and discussing things like cohesive plots over expansive series: the fact that you have multiple authors over a very long period of time relaying events which foreshadow and provide a repitive symbolism for future events without it being expressly called out by the authors at the time provide a huge sense of reality to the story and take it out of the realm of fiction by leaps and bounds. The only way for things to work out that well given how and when we know the Bible was written could only take place if true events were being recorded under the divine inspiration of God.

[@derrickma2740]

Ideas are like butterflies, as soon as you pin one down, it dies.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

I think Pageau has an important point that science is downstream from immediate human experience AND creative action, abstracting from the primary inter-subjective meaning. However its objects are real and concrete - enabling and inviting us to act bodily in specific physical ways. And they are deterministically predictable in a way that human creative action is not. They (and the literal physicality of the resurrection, which does matter) come from the creative action of God. If Peterson could see this re-enchantment of our cultural evangelization would be easier!

[@hypno5690]

Hasn't Peterson addressed all of that?

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

IMO he'd believe in God if he did, and he doesn't. @@hypno5690

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

"ENCHANTED". The desire to have this world expressed and understood as it is. Constructed by the meaning of words. Understood as the foundation of the logos. "RE-ENCHANTED". Chant. To outwardly express meaning. Encantre.

[@matthewstokes1608]

All Truth is the path to our Father in Eternity through Christ - and Christ alone … God be praised!

[@johnwheeler3071]

Of those people that follow Pageau and Peterson when they talk God I wonder how many actually believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus. Its a guess but I would say most don't.

[@francestaylor9156]

Reread the parable of the prodigal son. Focus on the parts with the older brother. Maybe you should just rejoice that people have come back to God instead of focusing on yourself.

[@BarrySometimes]

Agreed. To further your point - Atheism takes no issue with narrative. I don’t believe in God. Jordan asserts that, for example, Sam harris believes in god & is religious. Who is Jonathan referring to as an “atheist, those who Jordan describes as religious?

[@BarrySometimes]

@@francestaylor9156 Which god? The literal god classical theists assert to be true, of the fictional god asserted to be of value by Jordan?

[@adamsmith307]

​@@BarrySometimesPeterson doesn't say God is fictional. That's an oversimplification

[@johnwheeler3071]

@@francestaylor9156Personally I think Peterson has made up his mind what God is and he's less on a search for Jesus than he is trying to convince others that he is right. Maybe some sort of Platonism or gnosticism or Jungian thing but just not Jesus right now. He may one day change his mind and believe in the physical ressurection of Jesus and Jesus will welcome him with open arms, just like the prodigal Son was welcomed home. I'm not focusing on myself but instead I wonder what God Peterson has people believing in, which I am entitled to do. As for Pageu there is no doubt he's a believer in the resurrection but I wonder whether his followers actually believe in the resurrection or are just interested in the intellectual side.

[@JordanGreenhall]

Delightful

[@sigurdholbarki8268]

Fantastic interview, this is my first time on the channel but ive been listening to Jonathan for a year or so and he got me back to church. This was a brilliant interview and you've got a new subscriber

[@ruthokelley5833]

I understand that there is ‘meaning’ but all ‘meanings’ aren’t found in the vision of Jorden Peterson. I once found his information interesting and some useful…but it felt like we ran out of road together! We no longer were traveling in the same direction!

[@lilnapkin462]

I think what Jordan has to say about scripture is lovely because we can find multiple layers in which it is true. That complexity from a modern mind is something we haven’t had before. To me it is a miracle and makes me love scripture all the more. However, once you have seen that point of view, you’re right. That’s it. All that is left from that point on is deeper study of Holy things. Ultimately, that hunger can only be satisfied by God. I think it’s a good thing that you feel unsatisfied with more Peterson. That means that you have come to realize that need you have for God. 🥰☦️

[@ruthokelley5833]

@@lilnapkin462 I am an Atheist…after I had all the religion I could handle 40 yrs ago.

[@joshuacooley1417]

In asking the question of why people cling to the need for material proof of non-material reality, and why people can recognize the necessity of the thing, but still consider the thing to only be a 'useful fiction', there are probably a variety of things that enable this, and promote it, but the ultimate answer, I think, can also be found in another quote from C.S. Lewis "fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms." Except in this case, we might say, fallen man is not just a deceived creature in need of convincing: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. You can be drawn by beauty, and intrigued by logic, but the last hurdle that must always be overcome is that you must surrender to a person. Moreover, a person who claims absolute Lordship.

[@lawrencekuhlman9405]

"Symbolism all the way down." wow, great line!

[@steveflorida5849]

Values like... love, goodness, truth, service, and beauty have Meaning to the human mind. But, where/what is the Mental Mind?

[@johnmcwade1]

Brilliant. Just brilliant. Thank you 🙏

[@ruthlevai4816]

Very much related to George Lakoff's Metaphors We Live By

[@GTJamKiller]

Oh my God. I am in love with the host. She is gorgeous 🥰😍

[@leomullins]

I think there is another level above patterns that help me think about the Divine realm. I dont know what to call it, perhaps some kind of behavioural anthropomorphism or patterns of personal morality??

[@KevinMakins]

So grateful for this clear articulation of Christian spirituality.

[@moroniholm87]

Wasn't it Dawkins that was interviewed by Ben Stein in the movie, "Expelled," wherein he said panspermia was his best guess, as to how life began on earth? Now he's saying all life must be able only to exist in it's natural environment...

[@FutureNihilist]

"The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of something he cannot understand." ~ Gilbert K. Chesterton

[@silverc4s146]

Unintended Consequences are very dangerous, and cannot be known.

[@clivejenkins4033]

You can't see God, just like you can't see consciousness, but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, God is everything, God is nature, God is the mind at large, from which we all came from and where we will all return. This is my humble opinion 😊

[@user-rj5ld9gk6u]

When Richard Dawkins spoke with the lead singer of The killers I felt sad for both of them.

[@bradspitt3896]

You can't reduce the resurrection to material facts, but I don't see why you can't say that if death is the separation of the soul from the body, the resurrection was the reuniting of the soul and body, literally. The symbolic is rooted in the literal.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

it's all symbolic and literal. But it is rooted in the purely physical which, although descriptions of this are indeed "downstream" and "abstract" concern the deterministic physical, a realm different from that of the human soul

[@bradspitt3896]

@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 Something can literally happen metaphysically though. The Fathers speak literally about the events of the Bible and use it to interpret through their four senses: 1. Literal 2. Allegorical 3. Tropological 4. Analogical The latter wouldn't mean anything without the first.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

@@bradspitt3896 yes that's right .. but purely physical things do that according to deterministic natures, unlike humans.

[@bradspitt3896]

@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 What's a purely physical thing without something to "one" it?

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

@@bradspitt3896 a unified plant is oriented to the sun. This is determined, unfree behaviour and so purely physical, and so the object of science. Pageau is absolutely right to say that such description is derivative of, "abstracted" from, "downstream from" the lived experience of being able, freely and morally to pick the flower as a gift. But photosynthesis and giving are not just different layers of a pyramid of being they are different types of action: physical and spiritual respectively.

[@anthonyrbowen]

Love. The ultimate message, mystery and primary teaching of Jesus. The fundamental reality which conquers even death. What is the maximal level of love could a society reach if Love were placed at the pinnacle? Should we not strive to discover this? What better goal could one postulate?

[@lilnapkin462]

Nothing. And I think this is a good way to reach people. Because you have to ask yourself why such a goal is worth pursuing and what, even, is love? You will have a hard time finding it in a microscope or under a rock.

[@Reclaimer77]

​@@lilnapkin462Love is an emotion caused by chemistry in the brain. We can even create this emotion at-will with LSD, Ecstacy and other manufactured drugs. Yes you CAN find love with a microscope lol.

[@lilnapkin462]

@@Reclaimer77 False. If you want to be materialist, then all you can find with a microscope is random interactions of chemicals within the brain. You cannot find love. There is no meaning in random activity. Any meaning that you give those random events is personal.

[@condelevante4]

I find what a lot of Jonathan is saying as rhyming with Emergence theory.

[@nicolasbascunan4013]

Amazing

[@oliverjamito9902]

Beloved, don't mind the peek holes covered. Yet, knowing can still be seen!

[@sameash3153]

I don't think the world can be reenchanted if we are aware we are doing that. Awareness is the first step to disenchantment

[@soulfuzz368]

Fake it until you make it. It’s a cliche but it works, pattern is belief is understanding.

[@paxnorth7304]

We haven't been captured by 'materialism', but rather, by 'mentalism', everything experienced as a mental abstraction.

[@gandalfo]

Philosophical idealism. You can blame Immanuel Kant. The issue is it’s true, we can only perceive reality through our senses so we don’t see reality as it is in totality but in the way our mind represents it to us-the problem is that it’s not useful and there’s some serious trade offs that can occur when everything is just a mental image.

[@streglof]

I listened to Jordan's discussion with Dawkins and what I got from it was: J "I believe we can see our own DNA" D "why" J "it came to me during a mushroom trip"

[@RafaelCanelas]

Is that an actual quote?

[@hypno5690]

Pretty based

[@oliverjamito9902]

Thank you my BEAUTIFUL! Thy Youth. Thy innocents from His side from above knows? Who can tame the heart and mind of the Son of Man. For the "AM" knows the little child "i" and the little Child born "i" knows HIS "AM". The "i" AM. Offsprings preserve

[@lzzrdgrrl7379]

Jonathan you are a bunch of pixels on a screen and yet I luv you.....

[@johnbuckner2828]

One of these days I’m going to read his brother’s book.

[@Zoomo2697]

🙏The Angelus prayer. The Angel of the Lord declared unto Mary: And she conceived of the Holy Spirit. Hail Mary full of Grace... Behold the handmaid of the Lord: Be it done unto me according to Thy word. Hail... And the Word was made Flesh: And dwelt among us. Hail Mary... Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Let us pray: Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts; that we, to whom the incarnation of Christ, Thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the glory of His Resurrection, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen

[@oliverjamito9902]

Balanced will say, who is that? Sitting upon the lowest seat LASTS? Yet, who is that liken unto a SON OF MAN sitting upon the Clouds resting upon the NEW Permanent Foundation no one can uproot nor shaken but here to stay for good? Balanced

[@InterDylan]

45:20 Yeah i used to worry about that too. Many people use symbolic meaning in parts of the bible as license to call it just useful fiction that is just meant to teach you something and i think that made these church people worried about finding symbolism because it could mean that those other people were right and that it is all fiction. It's weird though because in the last 100 years there keeps popping up evidence of many stories that people just thought of as being purely symbolic actually having happened. In think that god orchestrates real events in such a way so they have symbolic meaning too.

[@TrotterG]

The amount of comments here saying something like "this is the clearest Jonathan has ever been" seems to indicate that he has breezed past the fundamentals of his worldview, and left a large part of his audience in the dust. I hope he'll take that feedback to heart and spend more time defining his terms, and clarifying the basic premise of his project. If his thinking is clear enough to be scrutinized and engaged with rigorously, then he's moving this philosophical/religious conversation forward. If not, he's just a guru. For all the hours I've spent listening to him, I find him fascinating, but I can't claim his ideas as my own. On the other hand, maybe that says more about me than him. Maybe I lack the aptitude or requisite knowledge to follow him where it's going. Maybe I should read some St Maximus and St Gregory of Nyssa if I really want to grasp the fundamentals. Idk.

[@lilnapkin462]

Jonathan is possible to understand, but a knowledge of philosophy helps. It also helps if you listen to every single episode of his podcast from the very beginning. A lot of people don’t have that kind of time. He also doesn’t formally participate in debates, and tries to only participate in conversations where there is a goal towards a good. He doesn’t need to formalize an argument. I would bet money that he will never actually form a syllogism or anything of the sort.

[@owenpope353]

Jonathan we have freedom to choose and God will never take that away otherwise he will not be blessed when a Human chooses to accept God's offer to become his temple in these last days.

[@heldivapanjaitan947]

There is no seperation between identity and purposd Some of the parables that Jesus uses not just described moral question but desribing pattern of reality and the way we engaging with the world Genesis 1 best description of the world

[@kuprukuula]

12:24 The reason beings want to keep existing is because the kind of creatures that didn't, were outcompeted by the ones who did.

[@stephencooper5040]

33:32 there is more evidence for the resurrection being true than there is for Alexander the Great even having existed.

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

That is ridiculous. I am not aware of ANY evidence substantiating the historicity of Jesus or any of the supposed events surrounding him. There are actual _firsthand eyewitness accounts_ of AtG produced by actual correspondence (letters to AtG).

[@lilnapkin462]

I haven’t heard that one, but I do know that there is more historical evidence for the Holy Scriptures than there is for the existence of Aristotle. History is a funny thing. When atheist tries to argue about historical evidence, their arguments invalidate other historical occurrences as well.

[@stephencooper5040]

@@Theo_Skeptomai if I am recalling correctly the number of firsthand eyewitness accounts of Jesus being alive again after he died is somewhere north of 400, the number of firsthand eyewitness accounts we know of for Alexander the Great is 3. Do you mean to imply that 3 people are reliable, but more than 400 are not, or did you simply want to argue because I said something about Jesus?

[@Theo_Skeptomai]

@stephencooper5040 Identify one _firsthand eyewitness account_ of this Jesus.

[@anthonyrbowen]

The scientific realm is useful in the material and practical world; however, it is in the experiential realm where science holds no value. You cannot scientifically calculate the value factor associated to how much you love your mother. These are the fundamental principles of the universe and cannot be reduced. Anyone who simply dismisses that which they do not understand is not a scientist and is curiously uninterested in a fundamental aspect of humanity from the beginning of time. One would require a complete lack of intelligence or a lack of imagination. Dawkins and his ilk are not pragmatically deep thinkers but rather specialists in niche fields. I haven’t found a serious thinker willing to discuss these issues with seriousness because once you do their argumentation falls apart at an elementary level.

[@lilnapkin462]

The most ridiculous of them spend decades trying to explain exactly how to assign value to your mother. It usually has something to do with monkeys.

[@lew526]

There's a basilica in Barcelona that has been under construction for well over 100 years. So don't say people don't build like that any more.

[@lilnapkin462]

That exception only proves the rule

[@lew526]

@@lilnapkin462I suppose that's a fair point. But were there ever very many cathedrals of that scale being built at the same time?

[@martanieradka4675]

The Bible is literal and in addition there are layers upon layers of meaning for each story! It’s genius!

[@kelleykennedy872]

For what it’s worth, I’m a former christian, turned atheist. I’ve been reconsidering my ideas on spirituality as of late. While I don’t have a theistic view, I am realizing the importance of religious ideas and maybe even ritual. The reason I’m not prepared to make the jump back to christianity or theism in general, is because the ideas span multiple religions expressions, that seem to tell a larger and much older story. In the same way, I wouldn’t say Harry Potter is “true”, but eludes to deeper truths and ideas.

[@savinggift158]

Lost me At Harry Potter

[@kelleykennedy872]

@@savinggift158 sorry about that. Let me try to catch you up. Harry Potter is a classic “Hero’s Journey “, much like Hercules, David and Moses. In these stories there are themes that are intended to point out truths within human nature, and even teach lessons. Much of the bible and other religions writings are a collection of stories just like this. I hope that helps.

[@savinggift158]

@@kelleykennedy872 I managed two and half pages it was poorly written drivel Better authors out there

[@kelleykennedy872]

@@savinggift158 are we still talking about Harry Potter or the David and Moses stories? Lol, I’m glad you have alternatives.

[@savinggift158]

@@kelleykennedy872 which Potter?

[@davidconlee2196]

The times I've heard JP debate or discuss religion with an atheist, it has struck me that JP isn't really making a case that God is real or that Christ truly rose from the dead, but rather that the moral directives of Christianity (or Judeo-Christian values) are good and wise. It is almost like an agnostic that views religion favorably is talking with an atheist that is hostile to religion. Its always weird.

[@lilnapkin462]

Jordan Peterson’s next book will be specifically on proving the existence of God