What Happened To Protagonists?

[@nalublackwater9729]

Each time I've been acused of being misoginistic when I said I didn't like Cap Marvel or Guyladriel I always answered with the same thing: "Imagine if someone took all the bullies you met through your life, distilled and concentrated them in one single character archetype and tried to impose it as role model." That's the modern "strong female" trope for me. EDIT: To clarify, I'm a woman and I'm talking about female bullies.

[@enochessien4066]

Perfectly summed up, the "Strong Female" Character trope, it feels like these movie writers form of strength just means being an asshole. I've seen another way its been described, "Toxic Masculinity in a Wig", they took the traits that they demonized in men, but now try to re-colour it to celebrate women.

[@scotthuffman3462]

Then maybe don't call it the "strong female" trope if you think it can apply to men as well (which it absolutely can)

[@iro6758]

​@@scotthuffman3462 It absolutely can't, though... In writing there's something called a contrivance. It's when you create X to cause Y. The amount of X's that a writer needs to INVENT, in order to create a "strong fefe" - are so numerous and blatant, that it typically dominates the entire narrative. It is the series of unbelievable contrivances required to maintain the idea of a "strong fefe" that create the "trope" Such as, every single male character being between a well-meaning soap dish, and a comically evil ham sandwich - in order to create the illusion of power fefe. Example: Prey The little native fefe does back flips and roflstomps French trappers - despite French trappers being, famously, the most-feared men alive at the time - because the movie was about "how clever she is"... Oooookaaaay. The "strong male" trope??? WTF is that, exactly? Neo, Peter Parker, the freaking Rain Man, I Am Sam, Buzz and Woody, the guy diffusing bombs in Hurt Locker... ALL, according to you, are the "strong male" trope... ??? Yes, there were Arnold movies - but he also did a movie where he got pregnant... There were also movies about serials, thieves, German officers that I'm not allowed to reference... All depicting men for what we're capable of being. Now, we have strong fefe movies maliciously lying about the kingdom of Dahomey, in order to pretend that the women are always and forever amazing. Prey was the tamest attempt in recent memory, and it was still laughable. All of this made all the worse, because the "strong man" movies weren't being made for the sake of representation or to comment on people's identity. It was only for entertainment. These movies are lying about things like Dahomey, under the guise of representation. You don't get to pretend that they're the same thing.

[@nalublackwater9729]

@@scotthuffman3462 I was talking about female bullies. Being a brute is not exclusive to men, sadly. We girls also have them in our ranks.

[@TheAdrian229]

@@DreamersNights yes arcane is a dimond in the rough, not enough people talk about how great the show is, how it's characters are full of negative features, that only makes you love them more. How bad guys are extremely likeable, and how female characters all are strong, but vulnerable at the same time. Perfection 👌 can't wait for season 2

[@GreenGlo1991]

Lady here. Agreed. Mulan is a fantastic example. The animated version was such an inspiration as a kid. She’s just a girl who loves her dad. I could be her. Live action? Oh well she’s not entirely human…

[@patrickshaw411]

And the message is universal for both sexes. It’s about hard work, determination, protecting the ones you love, fighting smarter, and bravery. And the story makes it clear that a men and women can do all this!

[@justanotherfan1]

@@patrickshaw411 and she earns everyone's respect from all those positive traits, and not because she bullies people into submission or yell at them that she's the better person.

[@Adamguy2003]

Also, animated version: Perseveres and saves China through her cleverness, resourcefulness and courage, as well as the fact that she's not too proud to ask for help from the new friends she makes. Live action version: Perseveres and saves China through having magical chi- based superpowers. So, I ask you all, which version of the character sounds like she'd be a better, more inspirational role model for girls?

[@iSeeStars153]

Yes! The part at the end when she brings the sword to her dad and her dad jumps up and hugs her and says the greatest honor is having you as a daughter 😭 Gets me every time. Because that’s REAL and I can relate to that as I love my Dad so much. THIS garbage is uninspiring, mean, fake and gross. Not one ounce of talent or reality in this show.

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

Characters don't exist now... they have been replaced by ideology in human form.

[@dengisten-speer6659]

Worse, they are bascially the authors themself because we watch Scooby Doo or She-Hulk to see the writers.

[@zachrion]

That's how stories originated, look at God's of myth, all of those were allegorical ideologies

[@crashinallguard]

Dumbest comment I've ever seen 💀

[@orestisveseli1603]

@@dengisten-speer6659 and of course when those authors them self's or Ash holes so will the characters

[@dengisten-speer6659]

@@orestisveseli1603 I dont know if they know this or think they are just too awesome or always right. Velam is a funny exception as Mindy ehh Velma is unpopular, gets asskicked or hit by cars from time to time and indrectly humiliates herself due to teen sex jokes. Not a typical Mary Sue apart from that their close pals are in love with her... just a horrible person.

[@Fairlypassive]

I specifically think it's women protagonists. They won't just make a person. Everyone else had to be worthless to make her just appear ok. Rather than being a good character who happens to be a women, they make her entire character "woman"

[@mmluon]

Yes. .A modern-day independent strong feminist woman.

[@guygadbois3010]

You can add in there how female antagonists keep getting redemption arcs that blame their problems on someone/something else, like Maleficient and Cruella DeVille, or just re-write history like Woman King. A problem is they want to blame all problems on men, so they ruin the male characters, but then are left with female characters who act like they owe nothing to the sexist society that oppressed them, and who have no accountability, which makes for poor characters.

[@YouTubecanbitemyhairybanger]

They even managed to screw the pooch on vikings with their "black female Jarl" give me a fkn break

[@55Andy555]

They're doing it again right now with the wizard of oz. It's so obvious and trite.

[@1307]

there's something i heard recently one the Critical Drinker's podcast that has always resonated with me. He and a few other people were talking about She-hulk and how, in action movies, female characters are always portrayed as pretty much perfect. They master everything on their first try, their flaws are always justified or excused and the male characters are either weak and pathetic or they're cardboard cutouts of blatantly misogynistic a holes. In response to this, a woman said: "they shouldn't have to put the men down in order to lift the women up"

[@lexiedovahkiin]

Indeed. And Critical Drinker has some true and fair points too.

[@viktordoe1636]

What they still don't seem to understand, that all we want is well-written characters. No matter the gender, skintone and sexuality, as long as it's an interesting character with depth and presence. And when they fail to deliver, we are the bigots...

[@JeepnJesusFreak]

NONE of these woke women in these shows represent me or anything I believe… It’s sickening what this crap has done. A man complimented me on my shirt at the store yesterday and after saying he liked the shirt, he said “I hope you’re not upset, I almost didn’t say anything at all but I really liked the shirt “. I told him he was fine, I appreciated the compliment and to not be scared to say as much. It’s just ridiculous..

[@nobodyimportant7686]

I just died a little inside reading that, the world you know

[@Gorbz]

In the retail world, we have it drilled in to us to not say or do anything that could be considered *ist. Complementing a woman on her shirt implies that you have been looking at her chest, and that is *ist, at least with the company I work for.

[@nobodyimportant7686]

@@Gorbz I try not to look at women in general nowadays, I dont mean that in a weird way, but quite literally. I've been seeing all these videos about men at the gym and other places getting called out. I also try not to talk to them unless were friends, I was already horribly self conscious of others so its pretty awkward nowadays....Maybe thats just me though.

[@Pero-zl4jp]

@@nobodyimportant7686 no man you’re not alone. Too many problems out there not enough time to deal with any of them.

[@nobodyimportant7686]

@@Pero-zl4jp Good to know, first it was METOO, then the wokesters and now the entitled gym girls. At this point Im a bit paranoid: I tend to space out alot and if literal blind people can be accused of being creeps then Im screwed. I would like to gave female friends to converse with, but I also enjoy freedom, a job, hobbies and a not terrible reputation.

[@DragonSlayerCommentariesHQ]

Most character failures happen due to either one of the writers not being talented enough to write a compelling character that can resonate with a human, or the worst version of this is a writer being lazy enough to corrupt an already established character's core tenets in order to convey political messaging in a genre where such things have no place to be. It also doesn't help that modern Hollywood encourages this kind of behavior, which is why we get subpar shows no one looks forward to watching anymore.

[@free_at_last8141]

I find it comforting that the people I disagree with view evil people as role models.

[@insane_troll]

What is happening is the writers are hypocritical, narcissistic and short-tempered, so they think these are GOOD character traits and write characters like that.

[@Zafire94]

Love that you’ve come to this conclusion also. It’s sad and I hope we go back to the times where we had both strong female and male leads and where we all just get along again. Also love the bit from 7:32, had me laughing because yes, thanks to Jenifer’s acting in the 2010’s, we now have all those iconic 90s heroes. Bravo

[@deedee2455]

Two of my favorite female characters are Mulan (animated version) and Eowyn (LOTR). They take action not because of glory but because of the family get threatened. One of the difference between Hero's journey and Heroine's journey is that Heroine takes action because of her family is in danger/missing, etc like Demeter's story looking for Persephone. What she wants is her family to be united once again. Learning this from The Heroine's Journey by Gail Carriger help me to shift my perpective that there is a difference between Hero's and Heroine's Journey.

[@80PercentScottish]

It is an art to make terrible people people's favourite characters. Shows like Friends and Will & Grace are examples of this too. Terrible, awful people, with few redeeming qualities, but they're loved. Nowadays, even characters who are good, just aren't connecting with audiences. Not very often anyway.

[@SamtheBravesFan]

Seinfeld did this well too. You don't want to have a friend like George, but he's so comically over the top that you can't help but like him.

[@80PercentScottish]

@@SamtheBravesFan yes indeed. Animes like Avatar have some great antagonists that you can't help but like as well - Azura being one example there.

[@squoblat]

Jonny Law is the OG protagonist we need.

[@YouTubecanbitemyhairybanger]

As another blue eyed prematurely balding white man. We're antagonists.... Trust me. There's a little Lex Luthor in all of us and yes it is because we're jealous of your hair

[@jaceyking5015]

It's come to the point now, as a woman, any time I hear a movie/show/game has a female lead I roll my eyes and groan audibly. Which is NOT how it should be.

[@cristela4034]

Same, they aren't doing women any favors with these "strong female" characters. They just take the worst characteristics of men and think it's ok when it's a woman acting that way. I used to love watching women in shows and movies being feminine while still kicking ass, but now being feminine isn't allowed apparently.

[@crashinallguard]

Pick me comment

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

@@crashinallguard And we get comments like this because how dare women don't like toxic masculinity but with women. We must be doing it for man's attention. Which cause us to hate these "strong female characters" even more because we can't have an opinion

[@AhauLobo]

I think you need to watch better shows than mainstream slop if you're starting to dislike a show/movie before even seeing it just because it has a woman as the lead, aha. I understand what you mean, though.

[@ruthiehenshallfan99]

I just finished this, and I have to say, this (and the normies video) might be my favorite of yours. I just love it when I get a more broad overview of someone's thoughts with topics like a character type or the like. Maybe it's just a me thing, but I feel like I can connect with a video's author better that way. Well done, Jonny! This was a nice surprise to come across while I was working! Keep it up!

[@PinkiemachineStudios]

I absolutely hate the way women are being written nowadays. It’s insulting. They’re all a bunch of jerks, and we’re supposed to champion them??? Did everyone simultaneously forget that being “strong” is NOT a virtue?! Like, physically strong. My mother was the actual definition of a strong women, and you wanna know why? She raised and homeschooled 7 children for over twenty-four years. And she never bragged, she was always humble and gentle and kind and loving. THAT is what strength looks like. That goes for men too. It’s good for a man to be physically strong, but it’s also important to remember: be strong enough to be gentle.

[@Romey1son]

Love the faulty towers and always sunny comparison, top tier content

[@mechwarrior83]

I was lurking around for a while but this is the video that pushed me into subscribing. On the nose yet very balanced! You also make a great point that this type of portrayal is a great disservice to most women.

[@ミア-f9b]

As a woman, I’ve always found that my favorite characters have always been male. I wondered about it for a while, but one day it suddenly hit me that a lot of the time female characters are very shallowly and poorly written. Being a raging bitch that hates the patriarchy isn’t empowerment, nor is it an attractive character trait. The one woman character I absolutely adore is Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul. She has stellar writing and character building… I wish more female characters were given the same love and care as Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould put into writing her character. A three dimensional, morally complicated and interesting fictional woman.

[@cestmoi5687]

It's like the writers have never met a well adjusted female.

[@raisak.6262]

Yeah... That's actually NOT the premise of My Hero Academia... Unless this girl gets her powers within the next episode or two, cuz... THAT is what happened in My Hero Academia

[@AndresD.deLeon]

I'm glad I subscribed to Jonny! His show/character analysis is astounding

[@jim-bob3093]

Negative trait being treated as flaws vs negative traits being treated as funny quirks

[@aragmarverilian8238]

Mainstream "entertainment" sucks because it is not made to entertain, but promote certain ideologies. Better go the Indie way, this is the future.

[@E.C.Animation]

Yay!! 🥳

[@ArtistSince05]

Never have I thought to have heard somebody say that some protagonists are not well written right until now.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

We have the answer, the problem is THE MESSAGE.

[@aidenkelly9641]

tony stark is another great example of a terrible person we grow to like. he isnt immune to his own assholery and we watch him learn from his past mistakes

[@dengisten-speer6659]

You are right. One reason is simply that most writers love to self-insert themself into shows/ lores where it doesn't make sense. Velma is the best example because the sole reason why she is an Indian is that Mindy wanted to insert herself into the show again. She does that so often in her shows that even South Asian people complain about it, not to mention her weird sexual love-hate relationship with white men. And Mindy Karling is an awful person and reacted to criticism of her show like Velma (though it's funny that she deleted most of her tweets about Velma). The same goes for things such as I am not Starfire or She-Hulk. Another reason is the lack of research. Nowadays it seems to be fine that writers, directors, and actors not only do not do basic research for their topic but also openly hate the fan base and the lore. I mean just look at Doctor Who and again She-Hulk. It's like those writers wanted us to hate the show and looking at DW, Timeless Child feels like they wanted to make sure that their new lore will stay regardless of what the BBC wants to do with the current Doctor after the awful ratings. Moreover, the main (female) chars nowadays have next to no flaws or weaknesses anymore because either the self-inserted chars do not want to feel weak, they do not understand their lore again, or simply wanna have strong female chars for "the message". As the Critical Drinker pointed out, the balance between flaws and strengths is what especially defines super heroes. But now we have Rey, Captain Marvel or most female chars in RoP and Kenobi. I have to grant Velma that at least they (supposedly accidentally) gave Velma flaws in terms of social skills. Before they uncovered the disappearance of her mom, I even felt sorry for her because her mom was an alcoholic and not able to raise her properly and her disappearance was definitely bad for Velma, which at least would explain her poor social reputation and skills and abusive relationship with Black Shaggy. She-Hulks overconfidence and ego issues eventually led to her fall as a lawyer and made her realize that she has not had many real friends though she doesn't really learn much from it. Apart from Rey, those chars are so unlikable and arrogant that I could call it a flaw. Still, I find it amusing and weird that the writers cannot understand why even women don't like their strong arrogant cocky female characters. Especially since they do not let them realize that their attitude is just horrible. And why? Apart from Velma, those women always get what they want. And it could also be that writers and partly the common audience lack the patience to let characters grow, develop and learn because that's too boring to watch/ hard and long to write. I do get that we do not need so many busty sexy skimpy main chars anymore. Like I find it fine that Black Widow does not unzip her jumpsuit now and to some extent, it was boring and degrading because it was a 50/50 that those women only existed for the sack of "sex sells". But those abominations of modern strong female protagonists are much worse because it's either stupidity, laziness, self-insertion, or spreading "the message".

[@oskariratinen1213]

What happened to protagonists? People who are entirely unable to step outside of the boundaries of their own life experience and who have led a life indulged in their perceived victimhood while at the same time living mostly upper middle class lives and ending up in well paid jobs in entertainment industry started writing them, that's what happened. And now they pour all their inner vitriol into these characters and of course think that the characters are good and something to look up to, because they are essentially their self portraits.

[@blankadams3120]

Several thoughts: 1) This is just the Guybrush Paradox, which, if you've never heard of it, let me try to summarize: There was a video game called Monkey Island, in which you play Guybrush Threepwood, an aspiring pirate. He is generally unlikeable as far as his character goes, meanwhile, you also meet Elaine Marley, who is the governor of an island in the Carribean... and she has very similar characteristics. Both characters, through the course of the game and two sequels, are built on from those starting characteristics, and they become loveable little goofballs, but, because the protagonist is Guybrush Threepwood, it's sexist, according to screeching harridans. I'm not doing the full Guybrush Paradox justice... 2) You want asshole female main characters? I can think of two off the top of my head, but you have to go to anime, and old anime at that... Lina Inverse is a wandering sorceress... she's short, young, hot tempered, and tends toward 'No kill like OVERKILL'. Oh hey, and 'money makes the world go round', and there are a couple times I can think of where the 'DM in the sky' throws plot hooks her way, expecting to tug on the heartstrings, but Lina basically goes, "Nah, no money in that". But she's a loveable little scamp anyway... Also, let's look at Asuka Langley Soryu. A German child who pilots the very latest model of Eva, who thinks she's God's gift, and very frequently abuses Shinji Ikari, our protagonist. She is there to contrast to Rei Ayanami, who is quiet, demure, and basically does what she's told to do, whereas Asuka is a spitfire. But, in the course of the series, Shinji, who is also fairly demure, learns to assert himself because Asuka is a bitch in his general vicinity...

[@MajorSmurf]

To add to other anime female characters who are a bit on the brash side. Think of the female characters from Black Lagoon. Dear god Revy will kick your ass and then blast your nuts off but I love her as a character (Especially the dubbed version). You have the Russian mafia boss. Forget her name who leads essentially an army in the guise of the mafia. She is often at odds with the main group in the show. And yes she's a mafia boss. She blows up people daily but you love her as a character. What about Kill la Kill? An almost entire female led show with some real amazing messaging scattered throughout the story. You have some of the most iconic female characters in that show. Both villains and heroes.

[@blankadams3120]

@@MajorSmurf I've not seen Black Lagoon. So I couldn't reference Revy. But, yes, she does strengthen my point, anime characters are allowed to be assholes and bitches, but they grow from that. Western media seems to do the 'assholes and bitches' and stop, cause characters don't grow.

[@rudolfgernd8760]

I think you have an important point here. A golden rule for good character writing ist contrast. You need opposite characters who can pull on your main protagonist. But modern writing has an asshole as its protagonist who ignores influences from all directions.

[@blankadams3120]

@@rudolfgernd8760 It seems to be that's because showrunners write characters who are so full of themselves, and who the writers think are perfect, 'Just like me!', that the concept of these characters growing and changing from adversity is such a foreign concept to them that it feels like failing...

[@Kejmur]

@@MajorSmurf Revy is an example of how you can write the assholish character. Because yes, early she's VERY rough 'around the edges', but people admire/can understand/respect/are intimidated by her, because: A) Later on she does get better, but it's a gradual realistic process. Primarily thanks to some humanizing influence of Rock later on. That he slowly, but undoubtedly influences her, to make her more positive in some ways. The assholish character can work, and the first example in the video is an excellent example of one ways to do it - pretty much make the bad guy receive his/her bad karma for it. B) Give that character at least one decent positive quality. it may be even something like him or her liking animals. Humanizing villains does help, even if it's in a minor, small way. Because real-life humans aren't one-dimensional cardboards unless we talk about extreme cases. At least they shouldn't be. C) Explain it by background, and personal history. Revy is a GREAT example of it. She's the way she is, because of her rough life. She's an ex-prison inmate, pretty much most of her life she killed people. This absolutely explains why she acts the way she does in the series when you are in a line of work where anyone may put a bullet in your head out of nowhere. Being the 'nasty bitch' is the best way to show those potential killers to not fuck with her, because reputation in what she does is a very, very important thing.

[@MegaLuddeman]

Thanks for making content here on KZbin Jonny! I find myself smiling everytime I see a notification from your channel. Keep up the good work!

[@DZ-oz8co]

Well, you know what their excuse will be: "You hate women" or "You only give so-and-so name, and you hate women" Despite those women you mentioned, I will always put them above those portrayed in TV now. With those people, either don't bother with them or just deflect their "you hate women" back to them. No need to play games with them, they hate women if not more than us for agreeing with the crappy stories given to women.

[@michaelhooper6227]

The writers think a strong female character acts like a man and they think a normal man is to toxic so they cut their balls off

[@SamtheBravesFan]

And their idea of a man is loud, abrasive and arrogant.

[@Adamguy2003]

@@SamtheBravesFan They believe that all male characters should be one of the following tropes: 1. Worthless, pathetic, effeminate, emasculated pansies who are just there to let female characters walk all over them and be humiliated for so- called "Comic relief." Examples: Luke Fox on 'Batwoman,' Pug on 'She- Hulk,' Norville and eventually Fred on 'Velma,' etc.. 2. Stereotypical crude, sexist, brainless, egotistical jerks (A lot like Gaston from 'Beauty and the Beast,' but devoid of the entertainment value he possessed) who are just there to be mean and/ or pervy to the invincible female heroes at the start, say sexist stuff, then eventually be humiliated and "Put in their place" by the invincible female heroes. Examples include Dennis on 'She- Hulk,' the guy in 'Captain Marvel' whose vehicle she steals (And, in a deleted scene, she nearly kills him) just because he told her she should smile more, the various male antagonists on 'Santa, Inc.,' etc.. 3. Pure- evil monsters there to be destroyed by the invincible female heroes.

[@BlackMage_BlackMage]

Jonny, this right here. I wanna see more of this kind of content from you an excellent character study and comparison (thankyou for bringing Fawlty Towers to my attention) you do such a fantastic job in elaborating these differences and what we're really missing out on with what the writers give us nowadays in-between their crayon meals. Very well done work as usual keep it up brother!

[@venomsnekko]

What worries me more than the portrayal of "strong female characters" in modern media is the fact that there are people out there who respond positively to these portrayals, which further encourages Hollywood to keep writing them. So we just keep getting this horrible feedback loop of the worst forms of representation possible.

[@jacob96014]

Oh thank god. I just finished binging your content. Need more lmao

[@krnatsu]

The issue with Velma, She-Hulk, the SW sequal trilogy and many other cases like them is even worse than HGS or Extrodinary, because don't get me wrong the latter two are bad shows, but at the very least they only spit in their own reputations, whilst the formers I listed take stories and characters who people genuinely love and care about and turn them into something entirely unrecognisable. Rey might be an "original character", but lets not kid ourselves she's essentially if Luke Skywalker had all his power of the Force and all the skills with a Lightsaber, but without any of the heart and soul that George Lucas and Mark Hamill poured into them. All these "characters" are charqicatures, stereotypes, carbon copies of every teenage Mary Sue character invented. And the only reason any of them are made part of beloved franchises, is simply so they can sell. This is honestly the first I've heard anyone talk about Extraordinary after seeing the trailers, however if it was part of DC, Marvel or another big franchise more people would likely have seen it. These writers, producers and execs, don't want to make these stories for the fans, they want to replace the fans that made them successful. But if you feel the need to fundamentally change a story or character for you to like them more, perhaps consider that you don't really like said story or character, not because of something trivial and irrelevant like race, gender, sexuality, etc. but because you lack the ability to resonate with someone who isn't you. Take me for example, I'm a straight white guy and one of my favourite characters is Harley Quinn, a canonical bisexual white woman. On paper to these "writers" I should not be able to enjoy, relate to or understand Harley beyond us both being white, but I do, because most fans of Harley care about WHO she is, not WHAT she is. Apologies for another comment essay, but the more I see Jonny, Critical Drinker, Endymion or others comment on these subjects it just grinds my gears how these stories and characters I love are being spit upon under the geise of "progression"

[@loubeau9672]

Even My Little Pony: FIS has the very same premise with the Cutie Mark storyline.

[@muhibbhussain2262]

I know this is a game but I'm pretty sure the protagonist of Forspoken would fit right in with captain marvel and she-hulk like literal sisters 🤔

[@BoopedNose]

Real heroic protagonists create hope and inspire us to be better people... The "powers that be" don't want us to be inspired or full of hope, they much prefer us to live in fear and blindly follow orders 😠🤬

[@Tuschi17]

I recently watched Sicario for the first time. The protagonist is a fairly badass woman in her own way without being invulnerable, mentally and physically. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

[@marcohidalgo1101]

Sicario is one of the last movies I've seen with a truly badass female protagonist.

[@onaraisedbeach]

Geat take, Jonny, loving these broader thematic discussions. I wonder how much of it has to do with writers being chronically online, especially on social media? Base your character on what prevails on TikTok or Twitter, and you're going to have characters who are narcissistic sociopaths who thrive on burning others while being incapable of doing any wrong thanks to identity absolutism, being hailed as stunning and brave by fellow narcissistic sociopaths. Congrats, you've made 0.01% of the population happy and made everyone else never want to see your character again.

[@bobbyflen248]

Holy crap, I leave for a few months and now you’re famous? Great work man! Glad success has finally caught up to with you! Hope you’re doing okay!

[@JonnyLawYT]

Ayyyyy Bobby boy! Great to hear from you again my dude, hope all is well

[@bobbyflen248]

@@JonnyLawYT Yeah I’m doing good! Works been a pain in the butt lately lol That’s why I disappeared off the face of the earth

[@JonnyLawYT]

@@bobbyflen248been there bro, I don’t blame you

[@AlainBoudard]

Oh boy, you made me want to watch Fawlty Towers again 😅

[@AlexMoore-qc5gp]

HOLLYWOOD doesnt know who to write anymore.

[@sobhanij]

Johnny. I recommend strongly that you watch Ted lasso. The characters are phenomenal the writing is amazing it's an original IP and it takes place in the UK.

[@SilverHawked]

because theyre all saying fuck you haters rather than building a character worth liking

[@skylerross8843]

I think the reason why it seems like there are more, bad female protagonists is because there are not as many. Like, if you look at the general history of movies, about 56% have a male lead protagonist. Now, if you were to watch all of those movies, you'd probably see a lot of really bad movies. Good movies are not as common as bad movies. Now, when looking at female protagonist movies, that is around 25%. Given that there has been a push for more female lead protagonists, that means there are going to be more movies and shows. If you look back at my first example, that means most of this content is probably going to be bad, and good content is going to be less common. What I think is going on now, is due to the cultural push for more female protagonist content, it pushes culture to accept that content, no matter the quality. So it can start to feel like we are getting a lot of bad content, when really, most content is bad, and good content is actually less common.

[@pyrebird]

As someone who loves storytelling and character creation, the recent trend of female characters is soul-crushing. They are almost never even CHARACTERS, and are instead caricatures of unpleasant harpies from the realm of nightmares. Or, well, what the writers who make them think 'strong females' are like (hint: they are completely mistaken in that, but I think you and your viewers probably know that already). And, to top it off, as a woman, it's fucking insulting that that's what these people think a good or strong female character should be, because if I were to meet anyone like these half-sentient baboons masquerading as 'strong females' in real life, they would be quickly met with harsh words or even minor violence. I miss the days when a character could be expected to stumble and grow from mistakes, to confront what they've done wrong and work to better themselves and the world around them, to actually have a fucking character arc, and not just be left in the primordial mud of a hack writer's mind. Basically, I wish characters (male, female, and whatever else you can think of) were still allowed to feel real, and not like a blow-up doll with a speaker installed in its throat to spout the writer's poorly-disguised biases. Oh, and DEFINITELY for people to stop thinking that 'strong females' can only BE strong if there's no capable males in the area. That'd be nIcE.

[@BigCowProductions]

More Johnny Law! Yay!

[@lemond2007]

The protagonist is supposed to be the one that pushes the story forward. Nowadays, too often the main character of the story has the story thrust upon them and are reluctantly dragged along while things happen around them.

[@thexp905]

The original Halo trilogy had a better female lead than most shows, and she was mostly there to be your exposition. Cortana had her own personality and growth through those games, and it's why we risk life and limb to save her in the 3rd one.

[@phantomstarlight1366]

Modern protags are meant to represent the (author) audience. Used to be protags were meant to be role models

[@sticky3108]

great video and well thought out good job

[@ChicaLocaGB]

Don't forget Geena Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight - she was a total badass!

[@kirivanyam5969]

Man this topic got me back to rewatching The Twelve Kingdoms anime. Great fantasy, political, females leads that I hated from the beginning but love as they progress through the story.

[@midlbrwn15]

I love how there isn't unnecessary background music. I've heard UK TV is similar and I love it.

[@TheDiamondSlayer1]

A great example of how to do a character with these traits well is Bojack Horseman

[@stephenrice2063]

I hadn't heard of Extraordinary. It seems that I haven't seen what you have seen. But I have now seen my share.

[@hpfan1516]

As a woman, it just feels like movies are just getting ruined. It makes me feel bad about myself and wonder if I'm just out of touch or something. I used to love movies and shows with a female lead, but now I actively avoid them. It's oddly enough pushing me towards media with almost-exclusively male leads, because I can't stand the expectations put on me and women as a whole with the newer content with female leads. Can't we just exist? Just vibe? Without our only purpose being to "overthrow the patriarchy" or "breaking the glass ceiling"? Can't we go back to exploring interesting facets of the human experience without burdening them with... propaganda for lack of a better term? Instantly ruins a thematic experience for me. That's why I'm here on KZbin, because this is where, in my experience/what I've seen, passionate creators live. And where I can give feedback on things in ways I feel makes a difference. That matters. Because people like you actually listen :)

[@theamazingmaymay123]

I always hate when ppl talk about “strong female characters” then they mention the worst options, and terrible written. I want more Ripely, Lara Croft, Samus (before other M.) Mulan, Belle etc.

[@yoyomayne]

Underrated channel

[@SourRobo8364]

I myself have been rewatching the DCAU, all the shows are still awesome, and worth watching.

[@GiggleStomps]

I think as the morals of western society slip away so does the creativity and intelligence of western society. Everyone is to sensitive, wants to be the main character, and they refuse to think critically… and that’s real life. Also, it is a shame how media and Hollywood try so hard to shame masculinity. Healthy masculinity is arguably one of the best things about humanity.. so is healthy femininity. It’s a shame that it’s wrong to just be what you are these days and it’s so ironic that the media pushes so hard for acceptance while simultaneously alienating every single person on the fricking planet. For being a man, a woman, white, black, straight, gay, tall, short, fat, skinny. Craziness and deeply evil. We are living in some crazy times.. the zeitgeist is on bath salts.

[@adamn2993]

No one complained about the protagonist in Arcane, make a well written female protagonist and no one will complain.

[@perfidious333]

Well, my day just got a lot better! Love the content, my Welsh friend.

[@wafflingmean4477]

I feel like a lot of modern writers genuinely don't understand the difference between a character flaw and a positive trait. And given Hollywood writing seems to now be dominated by wealthy nepotism babies (I genuinely can't imagine another reason to have so many terrible writers employed when good writers are easier to scout out than ever with online bookstores and film reviews). And, likely because again I suspect they are rich nepotism babies, they don't understand that arrogance is a bad thing. The reason people think Cersei Lannister is a good character despite how she's an undeniably terrible human being is because she is SUPPOSED to be a terrible human being. She's an arrogant paranoid psychotic narcissist obsessed with cruelty but an no point does anyone portrayed as reasonable or intelligent have any respect for her, save Jaime, who eventually realised how toxic she was and turned against her. When no characters respect or like her, and she's not placed in the role of protagonist, we the audience understand GRRM intends for her to be a terrible person who we're not supposed to route for. Therefore the audience is capable of liking and respecting the character for what she is. But aside from the incest (you'd hope) Cersei Lannister would be the protagonist in a lot of modern movies, and the writers would genuinely be confused as to why you're not routing for her, claiming this arrogant narcissist they've written is the epitome of morality, therefore you hating her means you hate women.

[@cofiecoffcoff4287]

As a woman I always bring up Ellen Ripley. She was awesome.

[@sarkastodon30]

That fell in love with a Dwarf's mineshaft 🤣

[@epicfail3167]

I like these videos, they are well constructed and well argumented One objective thing though, please raise the volume a bit, I usually have my volume on 20% but watching your videos, I notice I have to get it up to 40% to hear at the same volume level as most other videos I watch

[@katwaugh1686]

I have receded into anime and rewatching anime.

[@CameronMetrejean]

Thank you for this! I’ve been seeing some videos talking about calling female leads unlikable since male characters aren’t held to that standard, but as an example they compared Captain Marvel to Tony Soprano or Walter White, completely ignoring the fact that the latter two are not meant to be idealized hero’s but flawed anti heros (and in the 2nd’s case he ends up paying for his bad decisions).

[@speca]

Your audio sounds nicer, is this the new mic?

[@googleislame]

It is simple. These "strong female" characters are created to appeal to a female audience. And women largely have no interest in developing skills and knowledge to become heroic. They only care about the end result - being strong and powerful. It is evolutionary - women historically sought to pair up with high status powerful males without caring about how or why they got that power. So none of these modern female heroes go through the classical Hero's Journey. Men love the Hero's Journey because historically men were the ones who had to attain status, strength, wealth, etc.

[@ChristopherJWeeks]

what they want is that character who hasn't been included before in popular people's opinion, (the opinionated feminist), to now be the voice of the popular group while she gets to exclude all the people who once were in the popular crowd. It is her turn now. And since it is her turn she is going to have a party with only the people that were once excluded - the angry insufferables and gay lovers. The only problem is the audience liked and identified with the original popular crowd, but this new group is only there to mock and troll them because they felt hurt by them, so it is time to hurt them. So no one really is invited to watch expect for those who feel hurt by popular culture. It is a really weird thing.

[@eexpandingawayy]

Woman here, very much agree lol

[@thepenmaster]

Good female storylines I have come across are Kara and Sharon from Battlestar Galactica, Anne Bonnie from Black sails, Marian and Bertha from the gilded age, Letty from fast and furious (I feel like a lot of people might argue on this one, but I love her), Siobhan from banshee. Not everyone will agree with the list but I think they were written well. Especially the women from Battlestar Galactica, Banshee and from Black sails. Where they annoying at times, yes, but they were written to be more than 'message carrying' characters. Not sure that made sense, but they are decent if not great examples of ways to write strong women making them toxic and vindictive

[@joshfly210]

Games honestly do women more justice in the way they portray women now a days than they do in movies or tv shows. Even my girlfriend who watches the games I play or a couple games she plays notices the difference when we watch new movies vs our games.

[@krakal]

I hate and love how entertaining it is to trash on these shows because i feel like we should stop drawing attention to this terrible writing and leave it to rot

[@sageuzamika7784]

I wanted to go into acting but I always notices that more and more the father figuer in shows is a dead beat or in prison and if he is around he is a dumbest who doesn't know anything it irritates me because my dad got out of prison and did better and now is working talking to his kids and teaching me how to be a man and treat a women right but no I am sextet for saying that

[@mrs3097]

Because they you know, do the thingy when.

[@DariusVincentHughes]

Another great video, Jonny boy. Keep it up

[@ThatNaelis]

As a woman I can't stand the new wave of series where the writers are trying to portray their strong wamen protagonist as some sort of girl boss caricature. Nobody likes obnoxious women. Not even other women. If you can't have your strong female character show even the basic form of niceness and empathy to those around them, they'll just come across as self-absorbed bints. But that would be fine if that led to consequences and character growth, but that'd require the writers to want to write a good story instead of trying to be the twitter activists of media. The old animated Mulan is a great strong female chatacter. The things she does are never bratty or malicious and she rises to the occasion out of wanting to protect her family. Even when she is discovered, she pushes against social norms of society all in order to save it.

[@kaltaron1284]

If you're looking for a male protagonist that isn't exactly a nice guy Overlord is a good pick. If you're looking for good female leads then Seirei no Moribito/Guardian of the Spirits or Maquia are good ones. Juuni Kokki/The Twelve Kingdoms if something older and slower paced is fine too. Edit: I do admit that I liked Lara Croft in the first reboot game. Haven't played the other ones beside the start of the second one tthough.

[@E.C.Animation]

Ohh haven't ever heard anyone else mention The Twelve Kingdoms. I haven't seen it all but what I have I love. So much that I taught myself how to play one of the themes on the flute. Lol

[@judsongaiden9878]

1:20 It sounds like an episode of Darkwing Duck but from the perspective of a gender-swapped Ordinary Guy. 1:28 Darkwing Duck did it 20+ years before My Hero Macadamia. 6:47 George Patton and Mikhail Kalashnikov both wrote poetry. Kalashnikov even published his own compilations. 7:17 Walter Sobchak was a grizzly bear on the outside and a teddy bear on the inside, but that's a realistic depiction of male duality (accentuated by his PTSD). He might have also been bipolar, but they don't explore that in 'The Big Lebowski'.

[@speca]

Jonny, are you wearing one of those skater tops that have the short sleeve and the fake long sleeve?

[@danielgiovanniello7217]

It amazes me how the games industry just doesn't have this issue, really. I can think of dozens of games with fantastic female leads and supporting characters who rarely, if ever, come off as forced as female leads in the film industry. The Walking Dead's Clementine, Violet, Carley, and Lilly; The Borderlands series' Athena, Fiona, Sasha, Gaige, Tiny Tina; Mass Effect's Liara T'soni, Tali'Zorah nar Rayya, Samantha Traynor, Jack; Dragon Age's Leliana, Morrigan, Aveline, Merrill, Isabela. The list goes on and on and on.

[@lenavablack3632]

The modern audience curse that's what happened

[@watermaster5154]

Good video, I've had the same thought for years honestly and surprised no one sees how shallow characters like captain marvel are, or how Hulk was made a joke in She-Hulk (I only saw 2 episodes before not caring/being too busy and not regretting it). I'm wondering, what are your opinions on the controversy with the Harry Potter game? (If you would be interested in sharing, if not... Understandable.)

[@esshor.]

Yes thank you. I’m female and I’ve often thought that. I even had like a conspiracy theory tangent in my brain one day that maybe all this overpowered girl boss stuff was a deliberate intent and attempt to make women look bad and make them incapable make them look like they’re incapable. It’s so nice to hear another person particular guy expressed the same sentiments that it does make girls look bad. And it’s about representation of real women. So yes. As a female I totally agree

[@John_Doe62]

To make a asshole character likeable they have to be funny. Take cartman for example, he is one of the most evil characters ever, but the audience like him because he makes them laugh.

[@rbhatt2247]

About time you watch Baahubali 1&2, amazing real strong(not only physically) male and female characters, both protagonists and antagonists! Ps. love Cersei too, she can burn kingdoms down without bothering to lift a knife

[@trifectumart]

I feel like meerly mentioning that these modern characters are unlikeable is constantly blocked by the general shield of 'diversity' they use to make you look bad for being unbiased.

[@alexdinu589]

One of the best strong female character in recent years is vi from arcane, she is very strong and abrasive at first and is implied a romantic atraction between her and her partener but she is loved by fans because she has a softer nurturing side espacily for her sister and was the victim of a great injustice without constantly comlpaining about it or lecturing others about their privilege and despite being a street fighter she knows when to hold back her anger to get what she needs

[@Excelsior1937]

It's funny how Arcane's protagonist is literally a butch pink-haired lesbian, the stereotypical qualities of the type of character conservatives are always freaking out about, and yet no one cares because everyone's too invested in her character to give a shit about her labels.

[@readingdino711]

The best solution for these writers is to make a male character and then after just change the pronouns and gender in their notes. Because apparently it's much more difficult to write women, which is confusing as fuck. Same goes for any type of representation. Of course adding things relating to general experiences of that underrepresented group and if they're of a specific culture, add that to them, but these writers have probably never considered this for their cishet male characters, so it's probably too much to ask for. I guess fanfic writers are just more talented than well known and paid writers. It surely couldn't be because fanfic writers actually put in some effort and thought, no that definitely isn't the reason.

[@nickstockbridge3334]

I love some strong women characters when done right. Arcane did it amazingly. Mel, VI, Jinx, Caitlyn, Greyson. And they were amazingly strong characters by their attributes as a person. Sure they had rough edges, but they also had growth Even that scene in Avengers Endgame, when all the women team up, It was great. Until they drew attention to it. They literally were like WE ARE WOMEN LETS TEAM UP! ....yes the audience knows this. By drawing attention to it you literally tell the audience you are stupid. Being a woman HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORY! You never see a group of guys go WE ARE MEN LETS TEAM UP! As much as i loved that scene it was ruined with forced sexism. It takes you out of the moment. The only time it was acceptable to point out that the character was a woman. was in LOTR: return of the king, when whats her name was fighting the wraith, and he is like NO man can kill me. and she was like I am no man. This wasnt to the audience this was to the Wraith.

[@Excelsior1937]

I agree about the Endgame scene. Thing is, I'm all for girl power, and that was especially true when Endgame came out. The message they were going for there isn't even one I disagree with. What made that scene bad isn't that it had a message I disagreed with, and certainly not that it had a message in the first place since 90% of stories have that, it was the fact that it took me out of the moment. Before that scene, I was not in the movie theater, I was on the battlefield with the avengers cheering at every victory, biting my nails at every setback, I had been taken to a level of investment most writers spend their whole lives trying to achieve with their work. And then that scene happens, I think "huh what's going on?" for a second, still in the zone, and then I realize "Oh this is the girl power scene" and just like that, I've been reminded that I'm watching a movie. The "hand of the author", as red from Overly Sarcastic Productions would say, has been put under the spotlight, and just like that I'm out of the zone.

[@sharnjuster2071]

Well said Jonny - g'day from sunny Melbourne (AU), it is unfortunate that this has become a theme... turn the 'her-o' basically into a villian and all villians into just misunderstood people... unless they are of a certain ethnicity of course!

[@jerryterwase9027]

Beautiful presentation.