Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris Try to Find Something They Agree On | EP 408

[@herrrmike]

JP now does what I have been trying to teach my friends to do. He begins by listening, then demonstrates that he has understood what he heard, and (only finally) explains how or why he disagrees or offers his position, while seeking to establish and expand points of agreement. This is how discussions converge on truth.

[@PhyrstNayme-gm7ej]

@herrrmike I just wanted to point out to you and anyone curious enough to read. Look how little engagement your comment has. I know it's not been up long, and it is Factually correct! But that's my point, our society as many of us now know, absolutely thrives on meaningless conflict and outrage. You didn't say anything Negative, or slanderous, or Incorrect at all! And yet, very Few of us will recognize it let alone even notice it among the Noise of the "outrage machine" as Sam calls it. It's just crazy how we would, By The Numbers, rather be angry at each other than give one Goddamn Hug! Signed Humanity 2023

[@adrianespinoza2306]

Masterclass in active listening 👏🏼

[@carollen5601]

Yes indeed and truth is reality.

[@maobizubiwa]

Yes he does that, and you probably started doing it because Jordan has been advocating for exactly that for many years. So you make it sound quite weird by saying he now does it, but you also should recognise that although he's been doing this for years, probably decades.. He still doesn't use this as much as he could, to anybody he could. Might be worth keeping in mind for a bit... I am a fan, yet I will remain a sceptical one. Oh and by the way, you better just stick to doing it, rather than "trying to teach" it. People usually have it a lot easier learning by example than by most other methods.

[@ryanfrank1309]

​@@gnubbiersh647 Dennis Prager is just extremely conservative. Temperamentally you'd find him hard to understand and even ridiculous if you were more liberal in your temperament like me. I struggled with this for a while until I became aware that when I find others behavior perplexing, it usually means I don't actually understand what they think and why they think it. It's still fine to disagree with their conclusions, but if you find someone ridiculous I'd be careful. It's likely you who lacks understanding. With that said I don't particularly like Dennis Pragers views on many political issues. And this isn't meant to be an attack, I wasn't aware of this for a long time.

[@bisenmare8564]

Peterson looks really healthy, friendly, and open in this. Glad to see him doing this well and being this open-minded in conversation.

[@kennym3492]

Open minded?

[@NotUnPro]

@bisenmare bro had me in the first half. Acting like this man isn't calm and patient and listens even when he's being attacked. What?

[@Somong]

I listen to these two have the conversation I wish I could create, let alone find. I appreciate their decisions, patience, contributions, and processing.

[@jestermoon]

Honestly is the best policy 1:29 Thx for your work. 1:54 No god's seen or heard in my foxhole for 45 years . 2:18 It's a fairly simple fact, however 2:56 I appreciate your time work and Free Speech is vital 3:34 😂 Popcorn time ⏲️ 4:09 Think about it. Drop the done, feel free to drop it. Moving on 5:08 😂 Bye-bye from Calgary Untruedaux Land 🎉😂 5:37

[@KimuratrappedK]

Higher consciousness is one thing the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of. Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds alone. Even if you are a cerebral person, which is most definitely not a bad thing, you most likely, if not almost certainly, will still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality. Imbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make this condition arise. Of course, many of those who meditate, perhaps to a state of higher consciousness or perhaps not, are simply engaging a type of hobby, or if it is more than this, they can be living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nikola Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you. Such people may even know things which are so far out that a majority of people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.

[@kevinross6235]

I always like it when two people who disagree with each other can still be friendly with one another

[@sahara-thefree782]

I couldn’t agree more on that!

[@hapwn]

Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. 😇

[@psSubstratum]

@@fignewtoneateroh shut up take a hike

[@seansullivan1055]

Sam said he didn't care if hunter Biden had dead children in his basement he still would vote for Biden. So how does he have a conversation about evil?

[@Undomaranel]

Friendly is not the same thing as tolerant and polite, aka common courtesy.

[@leeobrien7954]

Jordan Peterson has evolved as a conversationalist in a wonderful way and this discussion highlights the fact that the best of JP is still yet to be seen.

[@chickenmonger123]

@@gnubbiersh647You’ll have to provide a time stamp if you want others to respond with actual answers worth anything. Which you very well may not.

[@l000tube]

At least he didnt talk more than his guest this time. He still cant help himself though - Sam offers a thought and frames it, Jordan takes thought, over complicates it and turns it to shit.

[@solorollo9756]

Thank goodness. Was worried there for a moment

[@MarceloTezza]

Yes, quite astonishing a man with that age still evolving as human on an area which most would already have platoed. Just upped my admiration for the human being he is! I want to be like him when i grow up hahaha!

[@zackwalker1721]

A guy who sounds smart like Peterson is often going to be in conversations where he's better at saying something worth hearing than the person that he's talking to. He, like a lot of smart people, understandably fell a bit into this trap where he stops giving the other person the benefit of the doubt (yes, despite the fact that assuming others know something you don't is one of the rules in his book) He doesn't always have CONVERSATIONS so much as he has INTERRUPTED SERMONS. Yes, I'll agree that he's shown some improvment in that area though. .

[@fostjusk]

I listen to most conversations from Dr. Peterson This one is in the top 3 I would say. I’m a Christian, and hearing more of Sam’s point of view helps me understand better the position and the courage of an atheistic perspective that has at its core, the propagation of more good and increased well being in the world. I haven’t quite gotten that from previous conversations with Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. But my sense is that these are truly great men I need to understand better. I do now do a little better I think thanks to JBP. So many conversations go no where because of the confusion of definitions, and the unwillingness to use certain terms that don’t fit as neatly in someone’s mental framework. This conversation deals with that like I’ve never seen I appreciate Sam’s willingness to grant Dr. Peterson his perspective using mythological and religious language. Which I personally find helpful even if he most often doesn’t. The mutual respect and humility from both these men was empowering to me. I can see where the points of agreement, at the very least are crucial. I hope I can approach important conversations half as well.

[@HH-ru4bj]

That's what happened in their conversation some years back. Peterson was trying to use a word in a way that Sam didn't agree with how it should be used despite understanding his point, and it turned into 25 minutes of debating the proper use of that word, which was very annoying. I don't think Sam has changed his position, but he has gotten better at explaining it to a degree.

[@friarnewborg9213]

Very disappointing. Sam's talk is full of logical knots

[@Bearkat87]

@@friarnewborg9213those knots are subjective constructs of yours, what he’s saying is very simple at its core. That what’s good and bad is pretty intuitive, as a species we’ve just weaved so many hallucinatory and undemonstrated narratives (religion) around that concept to, largely and ironically, justify one groups actions and/or rejection of another group.

[@7urbine]

Very well articulated, 100% agreed.

[@JH-ji6cj]

​@@dayseven28 religious Edgelords are the most fun Edgelords. Thanks for the righteous post.

[@BackOfTheMob]

The conversations between Peterson and Harris are some of my favorites of all time, as they help me flesh out the conflicting views within myself. Who knew after the first disastrous conversation we would be here today. Thank you both, as always 🙏

[@chickenmonger123]

Was it a disaster? Really? Raise your standards. Could’ve been much worse, and should’ve been to call it a disaster. It was inconvenient at worst.

[@Astarkiller]

What conflicting views. I think Jordan’s pretty clear about where we should get our morals from.

[@johnzielinski9951]

I feel the same way. Peterson and Harris have a Yin/Yang thing going on which is much more intriguing than the dialogues JP has with sympathetic guests. They both say things that resonate deeply with me. For instance, although I'm quite religious, I, like Sam, find it impossible to accept the claims of textual infallibility.

[@killerqueenNOW]

I feel like the first conversation is just a part of the origin story

[@AXharoth]

you meant lower @@chickenmonger123

[@MarianneHMiettinen]

This is your best discussion with Sam yet! Due to increased listening, and trying to find points of agreement.

[@zackwalker1721]

They're both going to think differently about some things, and if they talk to each other about why they disagree there's not necessarily anything wrong with them trying their best to be as impressive and convincing as possible. To use the language of the community they might sometimes try to DESTROY EACH OTHER WITH FACTS AND LOGIC, but one thing that has really gotten in the way of their public conversations in the past is that it's really been played up how much their interaction was supposed to be a VERSUS. I've heard a guy introduce them as they were coming on stage before and the guy was literally shouting like it was a WWE fight.

[@PoetlaureateNFDL]

Agreed. Really great dialogue!

[@friarnewborg9213]

Nope. Sam's logic is so tied up in knots, it was impossible to listen to the end. JBP should find better people for his podcast

[@MarianneHMiettinen]

@@friarnewborg9213 Mm. Please give an example of his tied up logic.

[@friarnewborg9213]

@@MarianneHMiettinen : Sure. There are so many. It is painful to listen to him. His arguments go nowhere, just circle around

[@Fishdemon72]

Super glad the two of you got to publicly speak again, I’m a huge fan of both of you. Hopefully this will lead to more conversations and further understanding of each other

[@KimuratrappedK]

Higher consciousness is one thing the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of. Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds alone. Even if you are a cerebral person, which is most definitely not a bad thing, you most likely, if not almost certainly, will still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality. Imbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make this condition arise. Of course, many of those who meditate, perhaps to a state of higher consciousness or perhaps not, are simply engaging a type of hobby, or if it is more than this, they can be living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nikola Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you. Such people may even know things which are so far out that a majority of people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.

[@Blackhearts60]

@@KimuratrappedK Who asked?

[@billj4525]

@@KimuratrappedK I want to start meditating myself. I think it would be very very beneficial to me. Do you have any suggestions on how to start? How often and how long, and what techniques I should use? Am I trying to try to ignore thoughts and suppress them while just focusing on my breath? I read a lot of conflicting things on meditation and specific techniques. If you have time to answer I would appreciate it, as meditation is something I wanted to start basically any day now. I will not be meditating to a higher consciousness though or any entity. I was not planning on doing it for any religious reasons, thanks.

[@JohnNeighbors-qo9hm]

Sam is clever maybe not smart Jordan is smart and clever

[@dayseven28]

Jesus Christ, who is God, is the Only Way to salvation. No mortal men or political/economic system can save you, only Jesus.

[@Gibbynotaguitar]

As a long time listener to both Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson, what a Christmas gift to have. As the fun uncle killing time while the grandparents, parents, and kiddos all go to bed this was a treat to be up to listen to on Christmas! As a former Christian, then Atheist, now somewhere in the middle spiritual person, this is perfect. Merry Christmas everyone. 😊

[@kilnmaster]

😢e😢😂

[@friarnewborg9213]

I found it painful. Sam's mind is like a sea of Knots

[@R-RJR]

So you were never actually a Christian 1John2:19

[@leondbleondb]

@@R-RJR anything constructive to add?

[@SpaceGoatCoastToCoast]

​@@R-RJRAll religions are just mythos, if anyone takes them literally they are already brainwashed.

[@wilsenna]

This was the best conversation I have seen with Sam Harris on this topic in a long time. I have been a long time listener of Sam since 2004 or so and in the last 6-7 years haven’t felt the need to listen to him on religion. But you managed to extract more out of him which reignited a few things in myself. Looking forward to the next one.

[@gerritgeerligs912]

Do think Christopher hitchens would have stayed acquaintances with him?

[@zororat]

Your comment struck a chord with me. Not only referring to the length of time Sam has been in the public eye but also the significance of the last 5 years or so and how much things have changed. Moral and religious discussions are perhaps more important now than ever, in recent times at least. Maybe the coming together of these two Goliaths in an honest conversation can be the beginning of many more of this type. Both for them and others like them. If they can overcome the mobs who relentlessly prod at them to pit against each other.

[@GStones58]

@@zororat "... ... more important now than ever, " ? Hardly! "Just as important now" might be a better analogy. Yes - you did say "perhaps". And, Peterson a "Goliath"? Well he had been treated for and probably is still being treated for his personal fight with "demons". But they are personal demons - nothing to do with any deities. Anyway - any praise or accolades he seems to receive are from far-right scumbags and the far right media. Most likely - Sam only acknowledges Jordy to lend Jordy some personal support and keep Jordy from jumping of a very high bridge or canyon. Sam doesn't want to feel he might have been the catalyst should Jordy follow the current path he appears to be taking.

[@KrazyKittyKatKatcher]

I found the pangburn discussions far better than this, to me this just rehashed a lot of the same points. A little more coherent maybe but not sure how much new movement we got. Anyway, that's to say that you should check those three discussions between them out

[@goodvibes-gy3jn]

@@gerritgeerligs912I don’t see why he wouldn’t have. There are many more people Hitch vehemently disagreed with that he stayed friends with. Sam and Hitch don’t have many points of disagreement other than maybe the topics of spirituality, meditation and psychedelics.

[@notgodzod]

Great to see these two finally having a really productive discussion. Can't wait for part 2!

[@blackops9572]

I hope you two realize just how important these discussions are. Honestly some of the best conversations I’ve heard where from you two figuring out exactly where you align and even differ with each other. Truth and rationality are so important and I believe you both share that common ground which makes these conversations so important. Glad to see the both of you together again!

[@friarnewborg9213]

Are you joking? I found this impossible to listen to after a period. Sam's thinking is tied up in logical knots

[@blackops9572]

@@friarnewborg9213 What logical knots?

[@PeteQuad]

​@@friarnewborg9213lol you said the same thing in another thread and got called out on it there too. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you are just failing to follow the logic.

[@johnoswald9143]

Thank your Dr Peterson, your conversations and lectures have had a profound affect on my life and you pointed me to Carl Jung and it is truly an adventure. Thank you sir.

[@flaviusmaftei]

Great discussion! As a fan of both Sam and Jordan I have been waiting for a new conversation between them for some time. So glad to see it finally happened again. I hope for many more in the future!

[@MrDavital1]

I have no idea how you can be a fan of both. One is reasonable and honest the other one obscure and manipulative.

[@jesipohl6717]

Both are chauvanists, ultimately

[@fahimp3]

@@jesipohl6717 Jordan, definitely so. Sam is able/willing to learn from other cultures unfamiliar to him.

[@vimtyr1181]

​@@MrDavital1 What a polarizing opinion.

[@sayadjsg]

Proof that two people with COMPLETELY opposing ideas can peacefully have a discussion, and even friendship.

[@vincentsmith8328]

“Hunter Biden literally could have had the corpses of children in his basement, I would not have cared,”...Sam Harris airing his TDS symptoms on the Triggernometry podcast!

[@backpain100]

In actuality, they are NOT really that completely different from each other. The issues they are discussing are cutting edge ideas, so of course the differences are magnified. But if you look at it generally, they are similarly rational people.

[@spindoctor6385]

They just needed Cenk Uygur there to yell at everything.

[@russellrivera5044]

Every single person needs an intellectual sparring partner, after which conversation one can say to the other, some form of "I love you man."

[@bradymoon1889]

Thank good for free speech. We got to witness the morality of Sam Harris in action during the pandemic. He needs to reread ordinary men and take a good long look at his shadow self. He wasnt just wrong, his beliefs were evil. He would have definetly been a member of tbe Gestapo.

[@ThinkingTogetherPodcast]

Jordan, I am extremely impressed by your listening ear throughout this conversation. Not because Sam is hard to listen to, but because we know you love to speak. Much appreciate you letting him take the stage and asking such great questions!

[@warbler1984]

The fact that you're so impressed by two people talking and one not dominating the other in conversation is just bizarre and comes across a bit sycophantic

[@catbranchman01]

SH is not hard to listen to.

[@atlasfeynman1039]

Jordan Peterson is a wonderful interviewer. He has a lot to say, but he always encourages his guests to speak. Perhaps YOU need to listen more.

[@zackwalker1721]

@@warbler1984I respect and appreciate Peterson, but he's only human so he's not perfect. He does love to speak a little too much as the writing of this comment has just said. Think it's a bit harsh to call this person sycophantic given that I don't think that anyone would say that YOU LOVE TO SPEAK sounds complimentary.

[@catatafish22]

@@warbler1984 There's a heap of things which define a sycophant, so you can't determine he's a sycophant based off one statement

[@andydufresne299]

Terrific dialogue. I like listening to these types of discourses. They are insightful. Thank you for sharing. Peace.

[@marypoole6394]

You have been a gift to me this past year Dr. Peterson. Keep up the good fight.!

[@jameskewley9440]

What is he fighting for? I can’t tell. JK

[@marcussmarcus2738]

I want more of this. Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson conversations are so interesting, and i can't wait to see more of them!

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

lol why Atheism is dead and science killed it. There is no value to discussing topics with Sam Harris other than to point out his flawed logic.

[@1solfilmclips732]

Interesting, how? LOL, it's like Albert Einstein talking to Kermit the Frog. If you like the Muppet Show, yes very interesting.

[@billj4525]

@@1solfilmclips732 Just because you don't have the intelligence to understand it doesn't mean others don't. Keep your stupidity and your comments to yourself, stop continuing to make yourself look bad on a consistent basis.

[@cvanders1]

@@1solfilmclips732 I'm assuming JP is Kermit in this scenario. It's difficult listening to JP trying to over-elaborately re-frame points that Sam makes articulately and succinctly. Aggravating.

[@cheopatius2579]

@@1solfilmclips732 If this is a conversation between Albert Einstein and Kermit - two clearly very intelligent people who are immensely succesful - where does that place you? Check yourself.

[@nickh.44]

1:04:15 Great articulation about how too much to either side can produce problems. I have been struggling trying to find, or even create, the proper middle ground. Thanks for the talk gentlemen!🙏

[@LDJ-r8e]

Don’t worry about middle ground. Just worry about what’s true or false.

[@GlowGlobe]

This is great. Please do continue this conversation soon. Something very significant is forming from them.

[@audreybee2410]

Dr. Peterson I've watched almost every podcast with just a few missing and almost all your interviews too! and not multitasking during them! ( I work for a non profit .. and notice a big difference in my life being your student) now I need to take the next step and start writing about what I learn. My fiancé George says I must be in the 1% of viewership. Oh and I saw you in Cincinnati last February! Seeing you walk on stage was like WOW! It's sorta my thing to admire you so much

[@captahab6370]

Lovely conversation, thank you guys for engaging with each other in these!

[@JaxWylds]

I just imagined a better world where our journalists used the skills of trained psychologists to make interviews with real impact like this. What a dream!

[@gabrielsyme4180]

“So what you’re saying is…” 😂

[@fabiancanada8876]

@@gabrielsyme4180 So you are saying that all women are bad?!

[@Anonymous00616]

@@undercoveragent9889 It's undeniable that gaslighting is a useful tool in ameliorating mental anguish in cases such as trans people who usually cannot face the truth but I would say it''s really quite limited in its usefulness for regular people and is most often used as a tool of abuse, not for therapeutic purposes.

[@immasurvivor]

eeh, yeah....no shit? xD ofc the world would better if journalists were extremely well educated, it would be better if everyone was?

[@clearpill]

Most productive discussion I've ever listened to between Jordan and Sam. Really great!

[@troypresley]

I’m glad to see the two of you find more points of agreement. My first thought after watching your earlier conversations about truth was that you were approaching the topic from orthogonal but equally valid directions. My own thinking usually aligns better with Sam’s, but regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I almost always find your thoughts and conversations thought provoking, which is always better than simply having my own beliefs endlessly confirmed. I look forward to your next conversation with Sam, especially if you tackle free will.

[@ericslavich4297]

2:06:00 "People don't know what they're missing." Out on a trail in the woods, with the sounds of civilization distant and muted beneath awareness, and the feeling of vigor and nature in my veins, I take a deep breath, look around in wonder and wish for all of humanity to know this moment of peace. And I think if only they did, if only I could share this lucidity, all the strife and conflict in the world could only dissolve away into nothing. But folks structure their lives, seemingly on purpose, to avoid moments like that. They don't know what they're missing.

[@phoenixfire8226]

from the trees a great beast bounded. he rent the flesh from my bones, as his teeth gnashed about me. lying there as the crimson stream trickled from me, the light fading, a butterfly lit upon my breast and i bore simultaneously the brunt of all the great wars and of all the great loves that had befallen man. as the beast consumed my flesh, i reveled in the beauty of it all. i was a man, soon to be feces, and yet the mountaintop had not eluded me. i stood among giants. i stood among. i stood. i.

[@barbaravanerp4598]

I love Jordan’s way of asking questions and love Sam’s way of discussion! What a great video. Two good men who look at the spiritual world differently and are willing to discuss it. My hat is off

[@WJACOTT]

One of those men is half a man. A man who wants and choose to be in his bakery where no matter how good or shitty his bread is, as long as his patrons love it and praise him … Sam Harris is a coward. And mostly wrong on his social views.

[@chrishughes6164]

Thanks. This is the only format of general courtesy that I can genuinely learn from

[@BradyHansen81]

More of this please. Showing that 2 people with vastly different views can find common ground and talk to each other respectfully is exactly what our species needs more of right now. 👏 👏 👏

[@rogerdittus2952]

@@ym5891 Really? I know Harris has elaborated at length as to why he sees Trump as dangerous to the US and the world, as having widened the political niche that lures supporters by playing to their fears, prejudices, and (often justified) greivances. But "actively called for the assasination"? Where and when did this occur??

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

I hate when people say it in the comments. oh 2 great pple having a civil debate blablabla…🙄I’m like WTH is going on here???it’s not like every other debate/discussion out there usually ends in a fist fight! 🤷‍♂️C’mon

[@BradyHansen81]

@@ImTiredOfThisChurch no, but when being an ass and “owning” your debate opponent becomes the goal you lose the message and become something akin to sports. You’re pandering to your base instead of trying to discuss something and find common ground.

[@johnnyb5534]

Meh Harris sucks, people need to stop platforming this dude. Easy skip

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

@@BradyHansen81 I see what you’re saying! The only case I’ve seen recently is Matt Dilahanty rage quit on a debate beside that nothing apocalyptic but hey it’s your opinion

[@brandoncarle]

YOU ARE HELPING ME GROW DR PETERSON THANK YOU❤️🎄

[@brandoncarle]

I do think technology hasn’t fully impacted our caveman brains, as in 50 years of having a phone , using twitter youtube and more daily will have an exponential impact on our subconscious I am fortunate to have been born in 1998 In my first 10 years of life I was not given a phone or tablet or even a video game Now I see NEWBORNS, toddler, kids of all ages given these microwave meal device that is creating something unforeseen

[@brandoncarle]

Baby cry, here give them a tablet or phone

[@justanothernick3984]

@@brandoncarle You must mean your caveman brain. If you put it like that, you hardly would accept that we have progressed yet most data shows we are better off now. This is an argument from evolutionary psychology and that is a value system, not a science.

[@brandoncarle]

@@justanothernick3984 may peace be with you! If you are part of the extinction-ist Good luck on your journey

[@brandoncarle]

@@justanothernick3984 if you feed your kids technology instead of proper care, I pray for your family✝️

[@gerrisweeney4488]

JP demonstrates active listening in a way I have never seen before, so impressive & inspiring for our divided nation and diverse beliefs. With gratitude ❤

[@jonunderscore]

Thank you so much to you both for continuing your conversations and sharing them with us.

[@kaledon6]

Sam harris could have easily eliminated his displeasure with Twitter by using the block button on the accounts that affect him, there was absolutly no need to "leave" twiter when he could habe built his own "safe" space inside the platform

[@KimuratrappedK]

Higher consciousness is one things the 'mind only' societies (with the demonic entity Jehovah being a particular patron of this state of being) will tremble in fear of. Going beyond this comes through the multitudinous forms of meditation in existence. The result is not a daft state of emptiness, as some think. The result is a state which, in its still quality, elevates and allows connection to greater insights than which might occur within the choppy waves of conscious minds. Even if you are a cerebral person you most likely still be this way if you learn to meditate, but those various and plentiful thoughts will be infused with an extra quality, inbued with something ineffible, as the bucket which has been down to the well, where so many buckets are dry. This occurs if you really grasp how to make it so. Of course, many of those who meditate to a state of higher consciousness are simply living an aescetic life, choosing to bask in various states of thinking. In the wilderness, in a specially designated order. However, when those rare souls balance the spiritual and pragmatic, you get your Nicholas Tesla's, or ancient sages and mystics who know about our star bound ancestry not by theory, or polymaths of many topics and what have you. Such people may even know things which are so far out that people will only grasp what they were saying hundreds or thousands of years posthumously.

[@UnsaidUnseen]

@@kaledon6 You clearly didn't listen to the conversation, Sam was pointing towards his own compulsion to spill impulsive comments, and he had realized it by seeing how his own friends were doing that. What would be the point in keeping cancer, and just blocking out the pain? It's killing you either way.

[@jeffinrodriguez914]

It is such a beautiful thing to watch two people who disagree on the most fundamental level having such a civic conversation to figure out the grounds on which they might be able to shake hands. Kudos to JP for having Sam over.

[@Silpher9]

​@@gnubbiersh647 That's why he wanted to skip that subject. It became a bit too cognitive dissonant.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

I hate when people say it in the comments. oh 2 great pple having a civil debate blablabla…🙄I’m like WTH is going on here???it’s not like every other debate/discussion out there usually ends in a fist fight! 🤷‍♂️C’mon ma’am

[@herrrmike]

I think the point is that most “debates” don’t really have the purpose of arriving at agreement. Instead, the two side often try to “win” - even if that means lying about one’s own beliefs or misrepresenting what the other believes. That is not what was happening here, and it was rather refreshing.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

@@herrrmike then you probably haven’t watched enough debates young lady. That might’ve been true during the time of Hitchens but that time is long gone as we speak.The purpose of coming to an agreement has always been for the listeners part who have to make up and adjust their minds not the debaters themselves . The debaters only have to show the coherence of their positions. And that’s what happens in most debates if you still haven’t noticed

[@jeffinrodriguez914]

@@ImTiredOfThisChurch At least they are not trying to score points and, as Sam said, the conversation degrades to something performative like most discussions of mutually disagreeing people.

[@1maripaul]

I've got my tickets for Jax Florida! Cannot wait❤ Ty for everything and for all of your books!

[@simonahrendt9069]

Wow, just wow. Worlds meeting and beginning to converge. I appreciate very much what both Sam and Jordan bring to the table. Zeroing in on deep issues relevant to the religion-science divide and (from a Western perspective) on the inter-faith/inter-religious divides and conflicts that emerge in a global culture. I really hope Jordan and Sam continue their discussion, this conversation was promising. Thank you

[@mayowankenobi]

I have never heard Sam Harris make so much sense. Sounds like abandoning Twitter has done wonders for his ability to think clearly.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

Ironic because Sam's worldview is as religious as it gets. Atheism is a mythology of magic.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@NousTrapper Oh? Atheism: "A magical nothing created everything and when I die I become nothing, becoming one again with my creator." lmao no mind/God involved that's your worldview not mine. Atheism is a mythology of magic, rationality from irrationality a truly deus ex machina mechanism that can never exist for it's reality breaking. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Ones rational mind that you need to defend your position can't even be a product of naturalism/Atheism! It is self defeating, in three ways no less. Rationality from irrationality, end product of unguided process is unreliable, and naturalism selects for survival value not truth as in whether our beliefs are true. Atheism removes science, it doesn't give any basis for thinking human rationality will reveal anything. Atheism is dead and science killed it. Atheism is a belief of blind faith that goes against the paradigm of reality that mind is required for creation. Does the author or video game programmer make something out of nothing with magic? No they use their mind. Is the mind immaterial? Yes. Does that mean it's magic? No. Is information immaterial? Yes. Does that mean it's magic? No. Mind>magic. Science does not support the view the universe is a closed system and events can't be fed in aka miracles, that's your blind faith. Believe in magic all you want but don't pretend your illogical pseudo science worldview is the high ground to argue from when it's utter nonsense and self defeating it's so absurd haha.😄😄😄

[@jsharp9735]

There isn't a religion/science divide. Its a Christian worldview vs athiest worldview. One is based on reality and the other is not.

[@jsharp9735]

@@NousTrapper It really is, and the irony is its built upon bunk scientific theories that can be disproven with simple logic and more scientific evidence is disproving these bunk theories anyways. Its called scientism, its a religion.

[@jeffeorymurray7485]

Now that was an authentic example of excellence in human conversation and understanding! That is extremely scarce on social media. Many kudos to you both.

[@aakankinskywalker384]

Like JBP said the anonymity in social media makes the cunning psychopaths in us come out.

[@digitalhuman2768]

It is not the goal of social media to foster harmony and social cohesion...

[@PeteQuad]

​@@digitalhuman2768yes it is

[@thecookiechannel7083]

This type of discussion is what is great about the internet. Thanks!

[@annmarie3573]

Sam's explanation toward the end of "the cure" (which he describes as a hypothetical medical intervention) and the relief, gratitude, and also the horror at your previous evil is precisely the experience of salvation by Jesus and being forgiven. That's precisely why Christians want that for everyone.

[@KAMAKAZE_ZC]

The difference is that one has to happen voluntarily. The way SH described his "cure" seemed evil because it was essentially by force.

[@annmarie3573]

@@KAMAKAZE_ZC true

[@ofiasdfnosdf]

@@KAMAKAZE_ZC His attitude of "wouldn't EVERYONE want what I'm prescribing" is the epitome of ignorance.

[@haxslasher1]

without consent, would it not be tantamount to evil conversion therapy? idk if that would be morally appropriate

[@MyopicTurtle]

​@@KAMAKAZE_ZC Well, if the scientific observation of pleasure and pain amounts to identifying good and evil, then we're obliged to remove evil, and pursue good. If it's as simple as that, there's no room for consent in the face of such incredible good. This is literally the argument that people made for lobotomies.

[@jakeblackwell5419]

What a treat to come onto your channel to find you two doing your thing once again.

[@clemenstombozichama645]

First time I've really listened to Sam with my ego(as a Christian) down and I have to admit... he's pretty great. Always been a JP fan, love this discussion.

[@JD-kh5zr]

I thought the original title was a much better description of this podcast. It was something like ‘A discussion of the existence and implications of Evil’. Probably one of the best podcasts I’ve ever heard from both speakers, with excellent points on both sides. Certainly an inner dilemma I’ve wrestled with most of my life, as the pendulum of life swings ✨⚖️💫

[@yinoveryang4246]

"try to find something they agree on", is more clickbait

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@yinoveryang4246 I mean so is discussing evil with a Atheist when the concept has no meaning from such a worldview as everything is relative.

[@jsharp9735]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep Indeed, I watched a very nice debate with a Christian vs a logically consistent athiest and the atheist basically said cannibalism is ok if society says its ok......

[@joshboston2323]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep ---yet Sam is a moral realist AND atheist.

[@Unique_Leak]

24:38 hitting the nail on the head 1:16:32 the alchemical ecample (a jewel in a toads head) 1:18:37 hero mythology 1:21:27 king arthur & the holy grail 1:55:22 salvation & redemption are dependent on the voluntary willingness to confront the worst of trajedies & the deepest possible acts of malevolence 2:01:20 joseph stalin & the development of evil

[@atlasfeynman1039]

What kind of timestamp synopsis is this? Did you skip the first hour?

[@Unique_Leak]

@@atlasfeynman1039 no im busy for my brothers graduation. Normally i do this on my computer. Phone is terrible and i wanted to sleep to this but these are noteworthy points i wanted to revisit once i get back home. Not really meant for you guys but thanks. Ill update the timestamp in 2 days

[@Unique_Leak]

@@ILikeFreedomYo well being is overall health not so much about liberty & freedom. In fact such freedoms are paradoxical much like god & individuality. We recognize that going from point a to b in our journey is a measurement of the progress & development of our origin and yet when all these word combinations are spelled out in cryptic fashion using a piecewise function & a glossary we will find out that all such environments no matter where we go or how we develop are spelled out from past, present & future using variables. It seems to me that cognitive dissonance allows for people to think they're free within a cage. We are certainly free but confined within our own private traps as norman bates from psycho has explained.

[@Unique_Leak]

@@ILikeFreedomYo how i organize our glossary terms is by placing well being & health with things that we gain, acquire while the antonyms for these would be to lose, lack, be ill, diseased, infected. The conflict between such concepts is by thinking there is a grey zone between that which is good vs evil thus describing complexity, intricacies, that we find in such ideas that describes individuality.

[@Unique_Leak]

@@ILikeFreedomYo how does one get determinism, fate & things that pertain with things that are solid & concrete in structure such as history. If we multiply 2 with the variable that represents free will minus the variable that represents the future you will get the past as a result ie. Determinism. But also if you add the variable that represents the past with the variable that represents the future then divide by two you will get the present or the midpoint between whats possible vs impossible. The paradox that is free will, individuality & god

[@niclastname]

It's really good to hear that Sam is doing so well in his personal life and career and seemingly enjoying life even more. I hope it only goes up from here. They're both right that Twitter seems to be solely a generator of negativity, and it seems to be only getting worse and not better.

[@Rainedrops.2024]

Thank you for taking the time to help others in all the ways you do. I had a terrible life, and it is so good to hear someone who speaks with care, compassion, and confidence. Thank you for your kindness.

[@davidsessera1337]

It was a very good discussion, and I must listen to it again. It somehow has given me a sense that I can perhaps heal. I too lived a terrible life in many ways. My mind was twisted by terrble early childhood abuse and neglect throughout all of my upbringing. I was full of fear and learned early on to hide in plain sight. I have fought many days - years to keep going. I am trying to find a way to reconcile my life of a dark addiction, to live a productive life, and not to be tormented by thoughts that I am not worthy or that I am eternally dammed.

[@JoJoBrooksShifflett]

​@@davidsessera1337 Prayers Rising for you. I had a truly good life till 5 years ago. My current life is dark and I now know loss & betrayal on an intimate level I never could have imagined. I no longer trust anyone and I pray I move forward soon. I am sorry you experienced pain & trauma as a young child. I will pray for your spirit to be healed. ❤❤❤

[@davidsessera1337]

@user-oh9rw8jz6h Thanks for replying and your kindness. Sending up prayers for you. Hope the darkness breaks and you are engulfed in light. ⛅️🌤☀️❤️‍🩹

[@theresefournier3269]

❤Ahavah love, joy and peace for all❤

[@mangr3n]

Dr. Peterson, your humility and good faith in these discussions is refreshing and inspiring.

[@michaeljacoby6137]

I agree: Mr. Peterson seems lucid, curious, and friendly in this one. What a joy to behold.

[@123mneil]

49:00 This is touching on a question that has been rolling around in my head for a couple of years now. Do evil doers consider themselves evil or is everyone the hero of their own story? Super excited to hear this discussion.

[@RespectfullyConcernedCitizen]

Do you consider yourself to be a evil? Are you a hero?

[@123mneil]

1:58:00 I really like JBP evaluation of Christ's sacrifice. When I was a church goer this idea never came to me. I was too focused on obsessing about how Jesus died for me and how I needed to follow his commandments. Although I did often think of following his example, it never occured to me that I should imagine making the ultimate sacrifices in my life in an analogy to Christ taking up the cross. That would have been sacrilegious to me I think. Then you get into the discussion about grace and that really throws a hammer in this. JBP take (which I like) seems to be at tension with the idea that Grace is enough and it's not our works that "save" us.

[@joshuawillingham6363]

It's a mix. Some people will be convinced to some degree they are doing the right thing but are blind to their own weaknesses. Someone trying for a global utopia for example, often thinks they're far smarter than they are. They miss their arrogance and dismissiveness of others in any self-reflection, treating morality like a math equation and thinking they know more of the variables than they actually do. Thus why pride is considered a sin, because it can blind you to the suffering you cause in whatever crusade you set off on. This is just an example. Hedonists who think pleasure is the ultimate virtue, people who group a type of people into a category of the bad guys without individual examination to justify whatever acts to stop or harm them, etc. All of these people are convinced they're the good guys. But there's a significant number who knows they're the "bad guy" and just don't care. They either think that the rules if the world are so fundamentally broken that morality is essentially meaningless, or they are so self-focused that caring too much about morality is just stupid, because how does it benefit them? And there are some who just don't see a way to control their destructive impulses so even though they know it's wrong they give up on trying, because they're tired of banging their head on a brick wall.

[@leondbleondb]

@@123mneil the mystery of sacrifice is indeed a great one.

[@Nico-hy6fb]

to the most degree, people are the hero of their own story. The person focusses on getting money (stealing, competing) might just be saving money to protect a beautiful family that does not exist yet. Someone can wish on radical changes in the industry for the environment- but not consider that it means for a thousand families to lose their income. Evil itself is a matter of perspective. It was cruel to see bambi's mother die, but the hunter was probably just feeding his family.

[@SherylFox-v1l]

Much needed talk. Thank you both. Kudos to JP for letting Sam talk .

[@haplotoorop3254]

Did you really need to say this?

[@AXharoth]

yes@@haplotoorop3254

[@jordanbrown1309]

@@haplotoorop3254 did you really need to ask this?

[@zionpope9491]

@@haplotoorop3254Jordan used to interrupt a lot.

[@TannerBraungardt]

Truly the two most compelling public intellectuals of our time… I’ll agree with one and then agree equally with the other in the next contrary response. Thank you to both of you for allowing us to join on your journey towards understanding this life🙌🏼

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

To be compelling you have to have basis and logic to what one says. Sam Harris has neither for under his Atheistic worldview good and evil and even truth has no meaning as everything is relative. It gets even worse for his naturalistic atheistic worldview cannot even account for his own rationality he needs to argue for it with. I would say William Lane Craig and John Lennox are far more compelling.

[@1solfilmclips732]

LOL, it's like Albert Einstein talking to Kermit the Frog. You Sam Kissers are very funny.

[@MrSaemichlaus]

It's amazing how these very insightful discussions can be shared in full length with everyone across the world through the internet, whereas hundreds of years ago, one could at best hope for a somewhat accurate summary by a writer that got engaged with the discussion as it happened, or to wait for the thinkers to produce a book that presents the findings of that discussed topic.

[@Hichkas111]

What a wonderful time we live in 🙏🥳🥳 resurrected Savior 🥰✝️🥳🥳💐 It is finished. The gift is ready to be received. Call upon the name of Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. I am an ex-Muslim from Afghanistan. Happy Christmas 🎄 to you all and may 2024 bring more joy - more peace - more rest - more creativity - more success, love and health in our lives 🙌🎉🎉 NB: This is my claim as a kindergarten teacher in a western society: Knowing your worth - knowing how loved and unique you are - is the antidote to every destructive thoughts, feeling and actions. Where to find our real value? ✝️. 🙏.

[@danielm5161]

Sam Harris is smart as fuck

[@joeyservo]

​@@danielm5161No he isn't. He has people duped into thinking he's smart.

[@jackmiller5788]

Sam and Jordan’s convos are a multifaceted Jewel. Already stoked for the next one. Free will and ignorance would be a great topic

[@TeamDiezinelli]

Oh yeah 😅 I’m looking foreward to that conversation, because I wonder if Sam can overcome his ignorance of the bible? I sometimes have the impression that he’s willingful blind and ignorant when it comes to the truth in the stories of the bible. In my estimation he didn’t give Jordan a response to his question how to differenciate between dogma in the negative sense and the “good way”. He’s just able to see the dark side but unable to see the light. As Jordan said in the end, he might never see.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

@@laza6141 I’m having a hard time with that logical, philosofical theory, I heard Alex O’Connor in conversation with with Ben Shapiro bringing it up. He’s a very smart guy and likes to win debates and was able the make his point elegantly. It looks to me though, that a functioning society acts as if we have the freedom to decide. Surley the way my life has developped shows that I made some good and bad decisions. Apparently I can’t blame others, but accept that it was me. So it looks like the theorie doesn’t stand or reflect reality. I assume the meaning crisis as John Varvaeky points out is a consequence of this notion that there is no “free will”. This idea seems to lead to nihilism induced depression amongst a whole generation. So eventhough you might be right about your statement, we fail to act accordingly.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

lol that's so ironic because Sam's Atheistic naturalistic worldview is destroyed by science in this very fashion. There is no origin to his free will and rationality to be produced from such a worldview thus it's self defeating.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@laza6141 You rephrased the premise to argue from to say I was wrong. No. Notice how I used the word "origin" if you can't get the thing in the first place then the premise is wrong. A Atheistic naturalistic worldview is self defeating, science has killed it. Atheism is dead.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@laza6141 No no ultimate origin. I'll spell it out then. If naturalism is true then our cognitive faculties have been selected for survival value not for truth, as in it's ultimately irrelevant whether or not our beliefs are true to something produced under naturalistic process. What matters is only if they are beneficial in the struggle for survival. So if naturalism is true we can have no confidence in the reliability of our cognitive faculties. But if that's the case then we can have no confidence in the truth of naturalism, because the belief in naturalism was formed from those very cognitive faculties which are shown to be unreliable if naturalism is true. So there is a kind of vicious circularity a kind of self referential incoherence that is inescapable in a naturalistic worldview because naturalism will undermined the reliability of the very cognitive faculties that were used to establish naturalism. Therefore naturalism cannot be rationally affirmed. Atheism undermines rationality. To think naturalism is the only answer and thus ones brain/mind is the end product of unguided processes is an absurdity far less to trust that to do science with! Ridiculous! No one would ever trust a computer made in such a way. Atheism can't survive the advancement of science. Atheism is dead. Atheism removes science, it doesn't give any basis for thinking human rationality will reveal anything. Whereas believing how the fathers of modern science thought that this universe is the product of an intelligent God, that gives you justification for doing science. If the mental is purely physical, then we have no reason to have any confidence in anything our brain produces. -Thomas Nagel Atheist I hope that helps you get where I'm coming from now.

[@liamhenderson3753]

This was the conversation I dreamt of. I've enjoyed Sam and Jordan for well over 10 years and have often wanted them to work together. This is amazing stuff. Also, keep up the amazing work with ARC ❤ from the UK

[@robertmadison1205]

Great conversation. Both men so clear, and more evolved and mature then they were before, via experience and discourse with others.

[@advancedbasicsAB]

I love both these men! Thank you for the conversation, never stop!

[@debras1503]

I would love to see Dr. Peterson! I hope it’s in the US

[@TIP2444]

Absolutely adored this interview start to finish for a few reasons. 1. JP is getting better and better at listening and not interjecting when he’d love to provide his perspective - which frankly, his less sophisticated but far more engaged following would adore him for. 2. It’s fantastic to see him genuinely extending an olive branch to Sam, despite all Sam has weathered the last few years, granted much of it self prescribed. And to do it in the name of seeking knowledge. They’ve already discussed these things ad nauseum, so discussing further in a collegial way speaks to the search for knowledge. 3. It’s become clear that he’s starting to understand that real truth is found through attentive dialogue and that the pinnacle of this tenet is achieved through discussions with people he truly cannot understand. Discussions with Sam are chief among these interactions; you can almost see dr Peterson is learning as much about himself as he is the other person or their view. It’s a pleasure to listen to.

[@deltatrader72]

Seems like JP is getting back to his roots and I agree it's nice to behold.

[@RobFitzgerald-u2o]

I would love to hear both of your thoughts on Ken Wilber's work as it relates to growing up and waking up as Ken would frame that concept you both touched on. Thank you both for exemplifying the path of enlightenment not that any of us have arrived, but always in the adventure.

[@curiousinvestigator5448]

When Jordon was speaking about facing malevolence boldly, especially when the mob is against you, the death and resurrection etc, makes me think of the transition between spiral colours in some ways most of Christianity feels like a system designed to pull from red to blue.

[@byronchurch]

The last point by Sam was a perfect answer to the good and evil battle ! Love yourself . Love your enemies . ❤❤❤

[@Wade_Adakai]

I pray for Sam every so often. He’s my favorite of the Four Horsemen and enjoy listening to his thoughts. I hope someday he gives Christ a moment of consideration 🙏🏽

[@brady3126]

Check out his most recent podcast episode!

[@darbyohara]

Don’t waste your prayers. He doesn’t believe

[@Wade_Adakai]

@@darbyohara prayers are never wasted 🙌🏾

[@Wade_Adakai]

@@brady3126 I listened to the portion of the episode, the rest is behind a pay wall, sounded interesting though!

[@spiro_skrami]

i love both of your ideas and you both have been a strong voice in my intellectual development, seeing you two getting along and having a productive discussion makes my heart soar, thank you both for this

[@1solfilmclips732]

BOTH??? LOL, it's like Albert Einstein talking to Kermit the Frog. Jordan is the only intellect, Sam is comic relief.

[@johngreenstreet9347]

Conversations like this restore my faith in humanity, thank you.

[@dawid_dahl]

Jordan really was a lot of a better listener this podcast. Great improvement, well done! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@lukeanatr]

Peterson and Harris - the dynamic duo back at it again!

[@PoorlySoup]

I haven't always agreed with everything Jordan has said, but he does an exceptionally good job here interviewing and guiding a great conversation where he seems to be genuinely interested in finding as much common ground as possible before launching into the unknown with Sam. It's an inspiring and un-devisive chat, we need more public conversations of this intent and quality.

[@Michael-kp4bd]

Agreed. This is the best form of Peterson I’ve seen in a long time, if not ever. I appreciate the value he’s providing with a discussion like this, and acknowledge that he’s put it upon himself to conduct it this way. Hoping to continue to see more of this. I’ve been pleased to find others doing similar work, while witnessing a growth of infections jadedness among some others. I’ve been maintaining a sense of optimism, and this is an instance that reinforces it.

[@TrevorBroadstock]

JP seems like a genuine warm friend. ❤

[@sakelambo91]

Peterson's critics are so accomplished at being infinitely less involved in the art of discourse, discovery, and observation than him. It's truly amazing.

[@ronindark847]

This is why we need philosophers😎☯️👌

[@alexanderwilliam2306]

I have rewatched the conversations had by these two men more than any other philosophical discussions on the internet. These perspectives and the processes of how they are developed is so interesting and engaging. If I could get a regular dose of discussions between any two human beings, Peterson and Harris would top the list. Thank you for another enlightening chat.

[@AXharoth]

these convos are historic ^^

[@Richie_Godsil]

JP has come a very long way as a conversationalist, directly addressing his guest's points and framing them back so he and his guest are on the same page. I chuckled when Jordan admitted "he actually started listening to Sam". 😅 The original 2 episodes of Making Sense and the 4 conversations he and Sam had on tour are so hard to enjoy or glean insight from because Jordan was only reacting to and then lecturing about Sam's points as opposed to directly engaging with him. I love both these men with all my heart, they're shining lights in dark. Here's to many more conversations throughout the years.

[@tubsy.]

The man was a professional psychologist for 30 years, a lecturer at Harvard, an internet sensation for 7 years now, with literal thousands of interviews done. He was always an amazing conversationalists.

[@timglen4229]

​@tubsy. I think the point is that time and time again, JP proves he can't always control the need to outburst or interject so that he doesn't loose a thought. It isn't coicendence that a large portion of his audience has taken notice to this, fam.

[@Richie_Godsil]

@@tubsy. JP's public communication via lecturing and gifts as an insightful therapist are certainly not in question. But I'd say from 2016 until after his medical sabbatical, he wasn't a great interlocutor, especially with secular, materialists like Sam. JP admitted he was going through all that professional, medical, dietary, and family stress during his initial rise of public prominence that severely took a toll on his mind. Additionally, he was very intimidated by Sam early on, treating him as an ideological opponent to score public points against as opposed to fellow philosopher or public intellectual trying to navigate towards truth albeit by different means.

[@carlasabotta3750]

Thank you, for gracefully steering the conversation away from Twitter.

[@VimDoozy]

I think curing a particularly evil person of their evil might break them. If such a person were to be suddenly made good, whilst retaining their memories, it might do them in psychologically. The guilt, the horror, the shame of it etc. They would likely still feel responsible for what they did. I'm not convinced they'd necessarily feel gratitude.

[@Jaredskoll]

Not to lower the tone of the conversation but I saw the exact same idea play out in a video game. You change the villain's sense of morality and proceed to watch him break down as he's tormented by the actions of someone he no longer is.

[@leondbleondb]

See Saul -> Paul

[@Emerl18]

Hell, that's the way the villain is vanquished in the Eragon books. He has control over all magic, and they have a spur-of-the-moment idea to attack him with compassion. He'd magically walled it off and they forced it all to come back in at once. Hundreds of years of evil, that guy did. He saw no other choice but to disintegrate himself to escape the feeling.@@Jaredskoll

[@goldenchild8101]

@@Jaredskoll Wow! Never thought of it like that. Interesting... sounds logical. This is why I love the comments.

[@omegapointsingularity6504]

A good person understands forgiveness. A good person understands its own innocence. "forgive them for they know not what they're doing" there is a lot to that. Guilt is a terrorist and we must no matter what we did, never do it again, learn and move on. Otherwise we are not good. If we do not move on, we are on the path on involution(evil) and not on the path of evolution(good). How could we be on a path of evolution and good if we are looking back all the time? We absolutely guaranteed can't be good on the path of involution. So by definition of good as evolutionary and healthy, a person on the path of good can not be stopped by any action perceived as bad in the past or anything at all really. This person is actually in touch with infinite intelligence. If we could rephrase it to: 'What if the person would suddenly realize the weight of its actions?' That would definitely result in some kind of bodily failure if it is not paired with love, wisdom and meditation.

[@TheWanderingPensioner]

Well, that was a bit of a treat 🙂. Best conversation between Sam and Jordan of the few I've seen. Lack of an audience was a good thing, I reckon, in providing a much less debate-style and combative tone. I think they both did well in letting the other fully (almost) expound on their key points ... must be hard, because they both have a lot to say, from many different angles. Maybe they're both now more confident that the other person is making a fully genuine effort to have a good-faith conversation, which is what this seemed like to me.

[@stvicina]

Two of the greatest minds of our times. Thank you for the conversation.

[@Spencer_Shea]

Loved this conversation. I'd love to hear more from these two.

[@robinbeers6689]

They had an on stage discussion on religion a few years back. Can't remember if it was Vancouver or Montreal. Worth a watch.

[@MarioSpassov]

Mutual recognition across differences is the thing they managed to agree on. Great job!

[@MohammedFettouhi-l6n]

I keep coming back for your work and things add up, I get a lot of of new language to complete my thoughts. Waiting for your coming book, good luck!

[@sharghi_ghamgin]

I like the questions that Jordan asks from his guests.

[@tylerdurden4396]

I align so completely with everything Sam says it’s scary, but I do love JBP as a person. He’s been my internet father for a while now.

[@panzeralienofficial]

This is the prefect example of why its even better to have friends, that you slightly disagree with on multiple areas, than it is to have a friend that aligns with you on everything. That's how we grow as people. Great debate.

[@johngodbey2365]

What an affirmative experience it has been to spend the morning with you two gentlemen! If the world maintained such standards, then Twitter would fall as the domain of ignorance, and the realms of good and evil themselves would be shaken to their foundations--descending from a peak of a lesser good to discover a greater good, in the same way evil and ignorance would fall. Two hours well spent is better than two minutes of instant gratification. What is semantics after ignorance has been peeled away? Maybe understanding, which is the higher peak.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

Cute but what is good is all relative under Sam's atheistic naturalistic worldview so the word becomes meaningless. His whole worldview is self defeating from a scientific perspective alone.

[@tylerdurden4396]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep can you elaborate this as simply as you can for me? I’ve never got that from Sam so I would like to discuss it with you but I’m going to need you to hash out exactly what you mean there first perhaps with an example?

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@tylerdurden4396 Sure, without God as the basis for reality, good evil and truth loses all meaning for it's all relative. Everyone has their own truth and idea of good and evil it becomes without meaning. The thing is truth is exclusive, it's not all inclusive, we don't have our own truth. If naturalism is true then our cognitive faculties have been selected for survival value not for truth, as in it's ultimately irrelevant whether or not our beliefs are true to something produced under naturalistic process. What matters is only if they are beneficial in the struggle for survival. So if naturalism is true we can have no confidence in the reliability of our cognitive faculties. But if that's the case then we can have no confidence in the truth of naturalism, because the belief in naturalism was formed from those very cognitive faculties which are shown to be unreliable if naturalism is true. So there is a kind of vicious circularity a kind of self referential incoherence that is inescapable in a naturalistic worldview because naturalism will undermined the reliability of the very cognitive faculties that were used to establish naturalism. Therefore naturalism cannot be rationally affirmed. Atheism undermines rationality. To think naturalism is the only answer and thus ones brain/mind is the end product of unguided processes is an absurdity far less to trust that to do science with! Ridiculous! No one would ever trust a computer made in such a way. Atheism can't survive the advancement of science. Atheism is dead. Atheism removes science, it doesn't give any basis for thinking human rationality will reveal anything. Whereas believing how the fathers of modern science thought that this universe is the product of an intelligent God, that gives you justification for doing science. You are hindered by a philosophical presupposition that thinks that is the way it must have happened. That is a big issue for a scientist, am I going to stick with what the science is saying or with my philosophical presupposition? Richard Lewontin a geneticist was very honest in stating; "The methods of science do not compel us to accept a materialistic explanation. What does? Our apriori conviction." Atheists aren't following where the evidence leads, because they are self limiting the extent of their own rationality. It's irrational in the strictest sense. Atheism and science do not mix. If the mental is purely physical, then we have no reason to have any confidence in anything our brain produces. -Thomas Nagel Atheist Atheism blinds the mind so you can't see logic. Many times those who argue for it can't see they are failing to the very thing they accuse of Theists, blind faith like Richard Dawkins.

[@PeteQuad]

​@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeepI think you didn't listen. The whole discussion was predicated on the initial agreement that morality is not subjective.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@PeteQuad Hence the problem for the Atheist. You aren;t following,

[@jgt07]

I feel like I'm listening Harris lecture rather than a conversation

[@kennethsnodgrass2607]

Yes he talks at Jordan rather than with him.

[@Blanksmithy123]

@@kennethsnodgrass2607 well Jordan Peterson doesn’t seem to agree with you guys.

[@ShamballaCenter]

Excellent conversation! 💜

[@henderhonk]

I haven't seen this yet. But the fact that Sam is entering into this debate willingly says a lot about him. I disagree with him on most things, but I thoroughly respect him and his willingness to discuss his ideas.

[@danielhoward7310]

I disagree with Sam on a lot, pretty strongly. But still like the guy. I guess that's a good thing for you and I, and maybe for him too

[@Fnelrbnef]

Always love seeing these two together.

[@marciofilho3222]

Such a joy to see Jordan listening again!

[@iComment87]

It's shocking to me how hard Sam misses Jordan's points. I'm not a Christian, but damn, Sam is certainly intellectually capable of grasping the points; it's maybe his aversion to traditional religious thought, or his own dogma, which he brilliantly describes, that mean he simply cannot compute Jordan's points of discussion. Loved listening to this.

[@DevonPatrick16]

@@peznino1Sam is certainly intelligent. He’s lost his ability to be called rational over the last few years

[@justthefacts2148]

I got that Sam dismissed Jordan's points, specifically his assessment fo the Passion when he called them "mistaken", and he was sort of insulting Jordan by choosing to not address it at all and instead shift to his points on ignorance. It appeared quite intentional. As if to say, I've already conquered and dismissed Christianity of any value, I won't waste my time on it. Wasn't a great look at that time given the otherwise charitable and good faith nature of the discussion. Sam has some very elitist and dismissive tendencies, still.

[@iComment87]

Jordan tries repeatedly to highlight that there's relavent, well crafted philosophy in those stories, and that you can leave out and the dogma, and the supernatural beliefs, and still take on those teachings. I think Sam is scared to even dip a toe into that pool of argument, because he would have to submit that Christian dogma is somewhat useful.

[@iComment87]

@@peznino1 I heard that, but Sam isn't willing to test his hypothesis by engaging with Jordan's points. Sam has built his fortress and is dogmatic in his defence of it. He is what he criticises.

[@iComment87]

@@peznino1 as far as I can discern, the unifying thread is that Sam's whole rationalist, "there is such a thing as universal evil", scientific, progressive philosophy is underpinned by, and not dissimilar from Jordan's particular flavour of Christian thought. You don't need to accept God, you can leave all the dogma out too; just look at all as lessons, rather than literal, historical accounts, and there isn't much between Sam's and Jordan's philosophies. This is why I, as an atheist, scientist, fan of Sam Harris, agree with Jordan here; I believe he is correct in this particular assertion.

[@plintdillion286]

Amazing what covid revealed. Remember Chomsky's tirade against the unvaccinated?

[@BeardAlDankovich]

THIS is the kind of discourse we need to foster more of in todays society. Even if you dislike or hate one or both of these individuals, these kind of conversations are always so interesting to truly try and understand why they believe what they believe. Doesnt mean youll change your mind, but understanding others is so important, especially if they think differently than you

[@kidzbop38isstraightfire92]

4:05 did JP just ask Sam Harris "Whats good?" LMAO 😂. "What's good, nyugguh...you done cleaned dat room?"

[@AlmarWinfield]

1:38:31 You say we need more evidence and more argument here for Covid in relation to how we handled the Vaccine and the Pandemic but yet you said the very opposite when talking about Brett Weinstein and his views on the vaccine. You specifically said that you think some topics should not be talked about right now because it would cause more harm, but here you're advocating for the exact opposite. Come on, man.

[@noellecuisine8912]

❤another wonderful conversation, thank you gentlemen!

[@leni1028]

This conversation - beautiful Christmas gift 👏👏👏

[@yuyewu4699]

Glad to see Mr. Peterson recovering his health.

[@burieddreamer]

I can listen to these two talking for hours.

[@xtgazx]

It's so interesting to hear at 02:06:05 Sam say "People don't know what they're missing." It seems as if he's implying that he has a better handle on the truth than everyone else, that his worldview is the correct one, and that anyone that disagrees just "doesn't know what they're missing." As a born again Christian, I feel exactly the same way, but towards him. When I listen to him talk, I can't help but think, he just doesn't know what he's missing. God hasn't revealed it to him yet. When or if He finally does, when God gives him that aha moment and gives him a glimpse into the spiritual realm, it will completely blow his mind.

[@danielhoward7310]

Agreed. There's a depth and complexity to Christ and Christianity that he doesn't realize, and he would be amazed by. I say this as someone who despite growing up in the faith, did not realize this depth until recently.

[@MrALTennyson]

Sam’s worldview is much closer to the truth than yours because you wrap yourself up in a blanket of ignorance. You confuse the rapture you feel from “Christ’s love” with the truth. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be just as emphatically arguing for Muhammad. Truth should not depend on where you are born but the veracity of evidence.

[@pj68rt41]

​​@@MrALTennyson you don't know that, and it reveals the error in your own worldview.

[@Skiddla]

@xtgazx Listen to the segment again, its in reference to the thought experiment and the contrast between the common good vs evil framing and the alternative view of wisdom vs ignorance.

[@JoeySonal]

I am pretty sure that he includes himself in the set of people who don't know what they're missing, in fact he says a couple sentences later, "Figuring out what we're missing is all of our work". It's not him saying that he is superior to others, not that he has some insight which everyone else lacks. Instead he's simply saying that as humans we do not know what we are missing and it is our effort to find that out which constitutes growth.

[@barnyfraggles]

There's a secondary phenomenon here. Yes, people 'troll' and seem sociopathic on Twitter/X, especially when they're anonymous. This is a direct consequence of living in a fairly unprecedented time in the recent history of the West when being honest in your public life on previously mundane issues can ruin you. X provides a much needed vent for that pent up anger about particular topics.

[@JethanyFlynn]

You inspire me daily. Thank you for the work that you do.

[@shizzl0rable]

This is why I really liked how Bret Weinstein moderated between those two back in the day. I feel like both are talking about the same thing, the jewel that is the thing we cannot explain and because of that we come up with different interpretations. JP’s genesis series for example is what Sam Harris would call “using our 21century sensibilities and capabilities” to compound on the ancient wisdom found there. Dr Peterson would maybe call it bringing forth our sense of divinity to guide us through our lives. What it means in the End feels somewhat similar to me: using our best common sense, individually by cleaning our room and together by bringing forth the best version of each other via true relationships. The only difference here is the side of the jewel they each focus on and that’s basically what Bret Weinstein pointed out 👌🏻

[@Jordy_NL]

Nice analysis