Josh Guthman discusses the Primitive Baptists movement

[@SmokeyMtnRobin]

I grew up in the Primitive Baptist Church, my father was a preacher. I am no longer a member but the Primitive Baptist Church still holds a special place in my heart. If I may, I'd like to share a few things that might help add a deeper facet to your knowledge. The PB believe only the Holy Spirit should convict man's heart, it's referred to as "quickening" the soul. They believe the missionary Baptists try to help the Holy Spirit along by illiciting an emotional response from a man, which blurs the lines so to speak; is the man really saved? The do not believe saying a sinners prayer saves a man's soul, that man cannot change on his own, he must have the quickening to recognize his own sinfulness and need for God. What you say about their music is on spot except what you perceive to be loneliness or yearning for God's grace is actually humility. The PB teach that man doesn't deserve God's grace, he can only hope it's meant for him, that to have experienced the quickening means you can hope in His grace. Modern evangelicals (not all) tend to teach what I call the gumball theory; you can quote scripture, claim it and make God deliver what you want. The PB believe God is able but not obligated, we are His creations to serve His purpose. Which leads to their singing. To the PB singing is worship and it comes from the soul. Singing, like prayer, if done from our very depth connects us to God through the Holy Spirit. Those old gospel songs are forever a part of my devotions for that very reason. I am very interested in reading your book.

[@jlobailey79]

Robin Hembree what denomination do you belong to now? If you don’t mind me asking

[@clksvlguy03]

Robin Hembree zoo

[@elderfarleybeaversotherspr2811]

Jesus told Nicodemus “Must Be Born Again” That is not mans work !!! ?

[@kimdrobinette]

I'm just glad that God spoke to me and I was able to hear because not of my natural hearing but because he gave me that spiritual ear to hear with.

[@willcreatesthings]

Interesting take, friend. I’ve been among the Primitive Baptists about 4 years now in my home state of Alabama. I enjoyed hearing about how the singing affected you. Christianity recently has moved to an entertainment-styled worship service, but there is always something special about church singing without instruments, effects, etc. I definitely see the “lonesome wanderer looking for God’s grace” vibe in many of our hymns. A few thoughts though: you draw a strong connection between the Primitives and Calvinism. Our beliefs indeed share many of Calvinism’s tenets, but we do not embrace that system outright. I’ve heard many ministers of our order admit to being “Calvinistic,” but we are no Calvinists. Also, we are not “anti-missions” as you say, but we do not support the notion of “mission boards,” that is, groups of people deciding where to send missionaries. We believe God sends missionaries to specific places, not missionary boards. As for an overarching concept, I think our second article of faith defines us best: we believe the Bible is the “only rule of faith and practice.” That is, we desire to strictly emulate the Bible’s model of the church, without addition. You’re right that we’ve turned away from many staples of modern Christianity; it is because of this belief. I encourage you and anyone else to check out one or two of my videos! I make vlogs talking about Primitive Baptist faith and practice, why we do what we do, etc. And you’re always welcome among us if you want to hear some more singing!!

[@amartyrsconfession1611]

ThePrimitiveLifeOfWill awesome brother! I’ve been a Hard Shell for about three. I’m a member of Oak Hill Primitive Baptist Church.

[@amartyrsconfession1611]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpesk616iamNiqM

[@amartyrsconfession1611]

My testimony about how the good Lord led me there.

[@jeff5985]

@@amartyrsconfession1611 Oak hill in ATX?

[@amartyrsconfession1611]

Jeff, yes sir.

[@bdogwynn]

It's not lonesomeness. It's homesickness.

[@bg3409]

Daughter of a PB PREACHER. Yes, homesickness.

[@ict7133]

don't know that this professor will read this. but, first off, the tree, if I may put it this way, does not break off from the branches, but, rather, the branches break off from the tree. what I mean by that is the the 'modern' Baptists of today (Southern, Fundamental, Independent, Bible Baptists, Baptist Bible, etc., ) broke off from what was historically the Baptist doctrines and practices, and THESE were the ones who began to call those who stayed and insisted on the 'old paths', Primitives. We did not call ourselves Primitive Baptists, 'they' did. lol. Then when somebody says, 'they are against...', it connotes (right word ? not born in the English language, sorry) a criticism and opposition to a doctrine. We are NOT AGAINST anybody's doctrine to baptize infants, or demand repentance, or coaching others to 'accept' Christ, etc., we simply DO NOT believe in those doctrines, and we certainly will NOT impose or expect our particular local church's doctrines on anybody, even those who call themselves Primitive Baptists, although, to be honest, it might bring about a test of fellowship. We don't tithe (though certain of our brethren have inconsistently taught tithing to be a 'negotiable' doctrine, whatever that means), we don't have a salaried ministry, by and large, we don't have Sunday Schools nor do we have Primitive Baptist Bible colleges or seminaries, although if a PB wanted to go and study in seminary he is at liberty to do so, but, scripturally we find this to be inconsistent and not a New Testament church doctrine, we don't send missionaries in the way that most modern missions do: Board of Deacons, missionary board and reviews, accomplishment reports, monetary support, AND, most importantly, WIN SOULS FOR CHRIST. However, if a PB, or an Elder, is absolutely convicted and convinced that the Lord is sending him to go to this or that locality or country, why, by all means, he MUST go, and IMMEDIATELY, no fund raising, no study first, no nothing...pack up and go and don't let the Master wait, unless if he thinks his purpose is to help God populate heaven....well, as a brother, I'll have to talk to him a little bit more about what he actually believes about his 'mission'.

[@genesiskeglar6372]

ict7133 generically speaking, what category, or approximate category, would you place PB eschatology in?

[@Scout-bt3mo]

amillennialism

[@jeneham5406]

I really want to find fellowship in that church. Is there any way to connect with local PB even if there is no "official" church?

[@Scout-bt3mo]

@@jeneham5406 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primitive_Baptist_churches

[@Brit_tizzle]

He is fantastic! Loved every minute of this interview.

[@patellis3490]

Josh, I agree with most of your conclusions, but I think there are some nuances missing. There’s a reason we don’t play musical instruments in our services, which directly leads to the beauty of our hymns. Another reason might be that a substantial portion of our congrations back in the late 19th and early 20th were not all literate. When I was a kid I would go out on church trips through the South with My grandfather, the Elder M.R. Altom. I remember having to ‘line’ the hymns in some churches. It was a very old style where the song leader would read/chant the line and the congregation would sing it back. Thank you for getting our church ‘mostly’ right.

[@annfraley7083]

Pat, Elder Altom was my pastor, as a child.

[@anarchorepublican5954]

..really ? frankly a lot of what he called "history" didn't make a lot sense to me...reminded me of Beat-nick Jazz talk...nor was he interested in "the Why" of your acapella church music .... What do you think he meant by (13:49-50) ..."Primitive Baptist ...represent a kind of evangelicalism that is very comfortable with doubt..."? ...I found that very puzzling ...

[@localtvcamden]

More often than not, Primitive Baptist are categorized as predestinarians or as Calvinists. Which, in a sense we are both of those, but not in the most strict definitions of both of those words. I'm curious if you have ever had the thought of approaching, historically, why the PBs embrace predestination and other U.S.A Baptist do not. My experience has been as to why some do not embrace predestination is due to a lack of understanding as to how predestination is defined. My experience leads me to believe, many, if not most, who are asked about predestination believe it means 'absolute' in all things. Biblical predestination does not teach 'absolute predestination' (aka, absolutism). The predestination concept of the bible is rather easy to understand sense the 'predestination concept' in all tenses is only used four times in the 1611 KJV and if a Greek search for predestination is done, proorizo is only found six times in the New Testament. It is not difficult to find the true meaning. As for Calvinism, PBs agree with many of Calvin's points of doctrine, but not all. The most glaring is perseverance verses preservation. Calvin's doctrine teaches true believers will persevere in righteousness, while the PB doctrine teaches God preserves His people, in Christ. There are other points as well, but this one is the most visible. I enjoyed this video. Many of your comments are accurate and many of your comments and thoughts are much closer in accuracy than any other interview I have seen to date. I find this video to be pleasant surprise, overall, coming from someone outside the PB faith (and that is not a dig).

[@jordanwalker6739]

Hi, Thank you for your comment as it adds helpfully to the conversation about Primitive Baptists (which I was recently delighted to find on KZbin). I was raised Progressive Primitive Baptist, but also consider myself Calvinist. On your point about perseverance vs. preservation - do you think those two beliefs are reconcilable? Personally, I believe in both and I reconcile them this way - God preserves his elect, and because of that and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the converted believer's life, the elect of God will persevere in righteousness to the end. Yes, they will fall often - but they will be preserved and they will persevere. I think you can hold both beliefs without conflict, so I don't see that as point of distinction between classic Calvinism and PB doctrine. Of course, there are many nuances within the Primitive Baptists themselves with regards to salvation doctrine. What other distinctions do you see between Calvinism and the Primitive Baptist doctrines?

[@anarchorepublican5954]

..frankly a lot of what he called "history" didn't make a lot sense to me...reminded me of hip Beat-nick Jazz talk...nor did he seem interested in "the Why" of your acapella church music .... But most strange of all..what do you think he meant by (13:49-50) ..."Primitive Baptist ...represent a kind of evangelicalism that is very comfortable with doubt..."? ...I found that very puzzling ...

[@jordanwalker6739]

Very interesting interview - now I'll have to check out the book! I would like to hear Dr. Guthman delve a little more into his discoveries with regards to the Old Line vs. Progressive split between the Primitive Baptists. Thanks for sharing this!

[@peggymoore7523]

This man has no clues about us and needs to stop saying things that are not true. I am born and raised primitive baptist and the things he are saying is a loud of bull.

[@rickyblair8802]

I read your paper or book on Primitive Baptist. It was very interesting and did shed some light on the history and how they have developed into what they are. But I find it very weird that you would not have interviewed the Primitive Baptist themselves. So you did not get the story as correct as you may think.

[@rainbowunicornprincessandt7796]

Part of my family is Primitive Baptist. We are located and the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. It's interesting that you mentioned that the music and singing remind you of the synagogue. I read somewhere that there was a Jewish influence. Are there any sources for that?

[@Banshee111harpyeagle]

I would recommend Professor Guthman read "History of The Church of God" by Elder Cushing Biggs Hassell, revised and completed by Elder Sylvester Hassell. Also, I think that lonesome sound is more like mourning. This world is not my home.

[@tebelshaw9486]

Here in north Florida, the PB churches are dying out because the pastors are getting sick and old, and there is not only no one to take their place, but the congregations are moving away.

[@jeff5985]

I was raised in the Primitive Baptist church in Texas. Though I no longer attend services, I have articles of faith on my living room wall, and regularly listen to preaching and singing on Sermon Audio.....many from brothers in Christ I grew up with. Before the 1830's or thereabouts, all baptists were of one Faith and Practice, the doctrines of Arminius crept in, and along with it, other errors such as mission boards, and God's Sovereign Grace, was replaced by mans will. Galatians serves as a warning.

[@TheTreed09]

My 6th great grandfather started a primitive baptist church in Monroe, NC in 1784. My grandfather was raised in it but left the faith and married a Catholic. The family has been Catholic ever since

[@peggymoore7523]

I'll pray for your family I am so sorry.

[@patellis3490]

BTW, ‘Down to the River to Pray’ is the best Primitive Baptist hymn ever.

[@harpsichordkid]

Probably not a Primitive Baptist hymn. I’ve never seen it in any PB hymnal. The text of PB hymns tend to be older and theologically richer than “Down to the river to Pray”. For instance, they sing a lot of Isaac Watts’ hymns.

[@peggymoore7523]

How great those art

[@MCW110891]

My grandmother and her 12 brothers and sisters were Primitive Baptist that were born and raised Primitive Baptist as well her grandfather was Primitive Baptist. I had 4 great uncles, 1 great great uncle, and 2 2nd cousins that were ordained as Elders (Preachers) of the church

[@peggymoore7523]

Are you one cause I am

[@peggymoore7523]

We are here and ain't going now where.

[@ddgitz]

Fascinating!

[@annfraley7083]

One of the most important things to understand is that PBs are NOT Calvinist. This professor doesn’t even mention spending time with us. I was raised in this church and I’m sixty years old.

[@Scout-bt3mo]

"Comfortable with doubt"? What in the world do you mean by that? 1. You mentioned Calvinist at least three times. We Primitive Baptists are NOT Calvinists. 2. We are NOT anti-mission. We do not believe in mission BOARDS. There is a difference. A preacher should go on a mission when and where he is led. There should not be a board that decides for him. 3. If you want to learn more about our history, read History of the Welsh Baptists by Joanthan Davis. We trace our heritage back to Wales. At one time we were called Anabaptists by our enemies. (Yes, so were the Amish. Any group that "rebaptized" were called Anabaptists.) One thing we absolutely DO believe in is liberty of conscience.

[@stephenwebb124]

Nor are we protestant

[@pingtodd1921]

The Amish came out of the Mennonite, which came out of the Anabaptist. I know the missionary baptist separated from the southern baptist after the missionary argument. Missionary baptist believed each church was autonomous and should support what ever missionary they felt led verses a mission board. Is that similar to the primitive baptist?

[@ErikaBarkerNYC]

I feel that PBC should be a little more transparent with Calvinism. Yes, they are not Calvinist and reject a few Calvan philosophies, but considering the 5 points of Calvinism is the core of the PB doctrine should be explained when rejecting the Calvinistic branding.

[@Scout-bt3mo]

@@ErikaBarkerNYC I'm not even sure what you mean by this. Primitive Baptist churches have Articles of Faith which are written down and anyone (member or visitor) can request one. If they have a website, the Articles of Faith are usually on the website. You can't get any more "transparent" than that. With each of their article, they give Scripture to support the claim.

[@ErikaBarkerNYC]

@@Scout-bt3mo are you claiming that the "Articles of Faith" have no origins and are in no way connected to the 5 points of Calvinism? Why dance around this with political-like responses?

[@elderfarleybeaversotherspr2811]

“Following The Denomination Called Baptist; Gerald L. Foster A Texan and Fighter Pilot in The Korean Was, also an Engineer if memory serves. Six years in the Writing and Very Well Researched; Just noticed a Copy on Amazon listed at $500... claiming to be the last one available; Scalper ? Perhaps You know some one with a Copy ? My Best Regards Brother...

[@elderfarleybeaversotherspr2811]

We were at a meeting in SE PA, Years ago, A Niece brought Catholic Lady from central MD. Her first remarks when They were out of the vehicle and could hear our Singing; “Are You All Jewish”. At. Paul preached “ it is no longer Jew outwardly but Jew Inwardly”. So THE CHURCH is and forever shall remain Jewish...Amen

[@carolrushing8130]

This guy may have some good points, but he really has no idea exactly what the Primitive Baptist doctrine is. It is the most non "anti" church anyone could ever find, meaning it isn't "against" any other denominations or what they may teach. It just doesn't embrace those teachings and it isn't the belief of the Primitive Baptists. And they are not Calvinists.

[@peggymoore7523]

We are not calvinists. We have not lost and we are not gone.

[@rickyblair8802]

Very interesting, an outsiders take on the primitive Baptist. Very interesting that he never visited any of the churches nor interviewed any PB’s

[@kimdrobinette]

I live in southwest Virginia and I have belonged to the Primitive Baptists since 1991. As far as the music is concerned - Some of our churches in our association have music and some don't. I belong to Rollers Chapel Primitive Baptist and we are of the ones that don't. I love music and am trying to learn to play the guitar but there is something different to me in the church house when there is no music. Some people in the church try to make it all about the music, they play it so loud that you can't understand the words. I have lots of videos on my youtube channel of our eastern district association of primitive baptist churches. I welcome anyone to click on my channel and watch.

[@edvardzv5660]

Reading the books of the New Testament, we probably asked ourselves more than once: *"Why 2000 years we do not see those miracles that accompanied the Сhurch of Christ in the I century, as described in the New Testament?"* Why do the so-called preachers of Christ have to prove that Jesus really existed and atheists boldly deny the historicity or divine origin of Christ? Maybe because the Сhurch of Christ has not existed for 2000 years? The Сhurch does not exist in the form in which it is presented in the books of the New Testament, but there are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and other christian sects claiming to be the place of the Church, but they not have the only thing that distinguishes the divine from the human and is characteristic of just the Сhurch of Christ -the reinforcement of the word with signs, that is, miracles (Mark 16:15-20). Therefore, some researchers doubt the historicity of Christ, and some of them are not opposed to declaring him a an ordinary philosopher, teacher. But even if Jesus were an ordinary philosopher, his disciples would be ordinary followers of Jesus. And they would not dare to write about the miracles that not only Jesus, but also his disciples, could perform. In this world, the great fertility of atheism can be explained by the fact that there is no main opponent of critics of the Bible - the Church. If there were the Church in our time as described by the authors of the New Testament books, where miracles are performed, the sick are healed, where prophesied, and the dead are raised, no one would doubt the historicity of Christ. Then there would be the same controversy throughout the world as in the first century - Jesus the Son of God or the false prophet who seduces the world by miracles. As a result, we can say that the emergence and development of christian sects and atheism was the result of the fact that over the 2000 years the Сhurch of Christ did not exist. Find *"The Mystery about the Church of Christ"* video on KZbin, which shows the real causes of Christian sects and atheism. The video reveals a prophecy about the disappearance and reappearance of the Church of Christ before the end of the world. Watching this video will bring joy to all who sincerely seek God and will interest those who are not too lazy to think freely. Click on my name to watch the video (The video is in Russian, but English subtitles are included).

[@hippieista7323]

We are not Calvinists.

[@austinblankenship7631]

It kind of is like saying Anglicans are catholics, just because they are relatively close doesn't mean it's the same thing

[@harrywilson404]

How much of this culture came from the Scots Irish ?

[@marksmith4235]

There was a. Primitive. Baptist. Church in. Carroll. County. Indiana at. Paint. Creek east. Of. Camden. Indiana. My paternal ancestors the. Campbell's. Colliers. And. Rays. Were. Members. There.

[@harpsichordkid]

Episcopalian here, but very interested in certain Primitive Baptist ideas. People overlook them because they assume they are a lot of dry fundamentalists, but that’s inaccurate. They actually predate the fundamentalist movement by a century, and there are some surprisingly mystical and gracious teachings in some of their writings.

[@donaldzahnke1951]

I used live in berea ohio

[@mrp5402]

You got a lot of things wrong about PB’s

[@elderfarleybeaversotherspr2811]

King David introduced them, of his own accord, Yeshua and The Apostles 0..

[@ZJMusic1990]

I grew up in the Primitive Baptist Church and have since become Methodist. My was a Primitive Baptist all his life and died a Primitive Baptist but my church started taking a path after his death that is not Primitive Baptist and betraying Primitive Baptist Doctrines and so that is why I left and am now baptized in the Methodist Church.

[@rickyblair8802]

If you were against the primitive Baptist changing, why did you become a Methodist? That’s a huge change.

[@ZJMusic1990]

Ricky Blair because my mom was Methodist growing up and we decided to go back to her church.

[@thirstyboots6711]

Why did you get baptized in the Methodist Church? Were you baptized PB?

[@ZJMusic1990]

Thirsty Boots No. I was not and to be honest I never was comfortable in the PB church and neither was my mom. I wanted to help one time with a VBS senior project, but my strict Primitive Baptist father wouldn’t let me do it. I grew up in the old order and I was not progressive. They are so turned off by VBS and Sunday School. I never saw anything wrong with it. Jesus taught us to be desciples and Primitve Baptist’s believe that it’s just going to church on Sunday and that’s it. No works. No food pantries. Nothing. But there’s clearly more to it than that. Verse 14 from the second chapter of James can’t make it any more clearer...”What good is it my brethren if you have faith but do not have works.” And it doesn’t stop there it goes on to say that faith without works is dead. If you’re Primitive Baptist you should think about that unless you’re in the progressive line which is very common among African American Primitive Baptist churches. They have tools like food pantries just like every other church has.

[@huckster78]

It's a good thing you left primitive Baptists, they are extremely corrupt

[@michaelrushing4365]

If you want to understand the PB’s and MB’s. You need to understand The history of the Particular Baptist church. The Particular Baptist came centuries before and a split over mission boards. Study the history of the Particulars. You will find that leading you to the Ana Baptist of the dark ages....you will find that the great awakening was instigated by these small groups of people. The Primitive Baptist doctrines created John Calvin. John Calvin didn’t create the PB’s. John Calvin took the PB beliefs and married them up with Catholics. Also, the PB’s that you speak of today. It sounds as though you fell upon an old dirt road Church. Here is a more up to date version of the PB Church: facebook.com/TylerPrimitiveBaptist/videos/364327090916027/?vh=e&d=n

[@clinch64]

It seems a majority of Primitive Baptist’s today are just in name only. Whatever happened to the way you live. I don’t see a lot of it. Frankly, I see hardly a whisper of it. With television, computers, ballgames, cellphones, entertainment establishments... all around the clock..... who has time for God. How much is left. When they retire to bed at night? God have mercy upon us.

[@clinch64]

I would hope you are not bad mouthing those down an old dirt road. They just may have forgotten more than you and I will ever know. I received much wisdom many years ago down that old dirt road

[@clinch64]

Give me the old paths to sustain in these perilous times. I see all too frequently what being up to date really encompasses. More often than not it really means being entwined with the world and all of its frivolous trappings.

[@clinch64]

Anything which advertises as being up to date, I run from it. The so called best and brightest children of today are up to date. Aren’t we in good hands? I pray to God daily that He will keep me out of a nursing home, and to be at the mercy of the up to dates.

[@annfraley7083]

Also we are far from “losers”, in any way. To say that, reveals that you don’t “get” us at all.

[@bman6820]

PB are calvainist. And not so far from Roman Catholic. As believers and followers of CHRIST we are all one body. Or we should be. Branching off from another denomination within the same denomination isn't right a has a lot of man made over tones. Not recognizing a Christian baptism from another part of the body of CHRIST is just odd. Baptism is not a ritual for getting into some sort of fraternity. Or it shouldn't be. Just to be different as you can from other Baptist doesn't make you the true church. Lots of " man made ideas " and rules in pb.. I am saved and I thank GOD for allowing HIS SON JESUS to die in mine and the world's place. Choose CHRIST. BELIEVE AND FOLLOW have faith. GODS saving grace is amazing. Russian roulette shouldn't be played when it comes to salvation. . Anyone who is a child of GOD is the elect. Just don't be one of those " fooled elects" one day.

[@caman171]

primitive baptist are NOT all alike. some dont believe in predestination at all and i can name some of their associations if u like. these primitive baptists do not embrace the heresy that predestinarian pb's teach, such as a person does not have to hear and believe the gospel in order to be saved. this is a new teaching NOT found anywhere among original baptists. this teaching started around the civil war and gained momentum around 1900. the doctrine of "time salvation" was also never found among original baptists. when the predestinarian pb's began to decline greatly in numbers, they had to "find" a reason why their churches were empty and closing. so they came up with these doctrines that say you can be a hundu, reject Jesus and STILL be among the elect. this is quasi-universalism. the Cades Cove PB Church was part of an association that did NOT embrace predestination of individuals. this association is still very active. another one is the Eastern District Association of Primtive Baptists, the Hiwassee Association of Primtive Baptists and many more. while they dont accept "mission societies" etc, they do beleive in spreading the gospel thru the local church, and that ANYONE can be saved

[@jadely77]

John Gill mentioned temporal salvation in his Body of Divinity, if I remember correctly.

[@caman171]

@@jadely77 he did mention it and he also said it was a "false theory"....there were some calvinist groups which taught that some men may be "deceived" into thinking they are saved, but they would enjoy "blessings" in this life if they followed biblical principles, but would still be damned as far as eternal salvation goes. the predestinarian pb's took up this idea AFTER the missions split and proceeded to enlarge that doctrine to include that some elect will never be converted or hear the gospel

[@jadely77]

I'll have to look up Gill's comment, but it talked about the elect enjoying temporal salvation by Christ. Also, it does not appear that Gill was entirely supportive of the reformers considering his commentary on Revelation 3.

[@caman171]

@@jadely77 the elect enjoy BLESSINGS by obedience, but when the PB's say "temporal salvation" they mean an assurance of eternal salvation which may be lost if ur disobedient. some would say temporal salvation and "conversion" are linked, but in any case it always has as the otherside of the coin, that not all the elect will be converted or even hear of Jesus in this life. the PB's do NOT have full assurance of eternal salvation. youll generally hear them say "i have a hope"...yet it realy doesnt worry them too much because basically they believe 90-95% of people are elect anyways, so their "chance" of not being elect is very small. what the other 5-10% of people are that makes God not choose them they cant say. here is what Gill said "yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in the new creation..." Based upon reason alone, without revelation, yes, it does "seem" as though the no means view has some merits to it, but are we, or was Gill, guided by reason in the matter? No, for he concludes his speculative section by saying: "Though after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": Ga 3:2 that is, by the preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."

[@ErikaBarkerNYC]

ah yes, absolute predestination vs non-absolute. That's a debate that has been going on for a long time though. In my opinion, it's easy to cherry-pick scripture and doctrine and defend either side of the argument, but I really think those who get carried away with this are missing the entire point and solely motivated by pride and worldly concerns. We have to embrace we are humans who have many faults, and our fragile minds will not be able to comprehend the "entire" will, desire, and intentions of God.