Josh McDowell: Making Myths For Jesus @Kipp Davis

Dr. @Kipp Davis has released a premiere on his KZbin channel about the myth making of Josh McDowell by taking a magnifying glass to his developed testimony over the decades. The changes in his testimony are very revealing about myth making. Josh McDowell claims to be ALL about the TRUTH! Let's see how TRUE that really is!
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#MythVision #KippDavis #Josh McDowell

[@alexlarsen6413]

Yeah his supposed conversion story is obvious BS. Even if it played out in the way he describes (and it didn't), what could a 19 year old law student have learned in Europe in the early 60s?? The Dead Sea scrolls had just been uncovered some 15 years earlier and he certainly did not have either expertise to read them and interpret them, or access to them, that's for sure. The same goes for other, longer known documents at the time. He wouldn't have been able to easily access them and even if he had, he wouldn't have known where to start. That is bunch of baloney

[@MarcosElMalo2]

“It’s true! It’s true! It’s true!” I said to my cheerleader girlfriend at bible camp that you’ve never met because she lives in Canada.

[@SirLangsalot]

"Evidence that demands a verdict". And the 'verdict' is: insufficient evidence for the DA/crown to prosecute.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

I've been calling bullshit on Josh McDowell's origin story for decades. It's so transparently contrived. It's like infonericials with people saying, 'I used to be skeptical about ___ until I TRIED it." If McDowell had ever actually found any real evidence, he didn't put it in his book. I'm glad somebody did the work to prove his backstory is nothing but a sales pitch, but I feel bad for Kipp having to sit through so many hours of Josh McDowell.

[@gflem]

I sent Josh McDowell a long letter asking him for his input. He sent me a short letter back saying thanks for the research this will help me in my next book. This is something that pissed me off drastically at the time. Hey brother in Christ I’m asking for help! And I think I can say, actually, I was hungry and you wouldn’t feed me I was thirsty and you give me a drip… I would like to email you guys a copy of the letter that I sent to Josh McDowell.

[@Balance3rd]

Would you mind sending me this email? I love to see these stories. In Sunday school my class went through McDowells book and I was surprised by his lack of specifics.

[@Hustada]

It’s true!!

[@gflem]

@@Hustada The letter I wrote, told him that the resurrection story is flimsy and under suspicion. There are four gospels. There are four different resurrection stories. The earliest gospel is Mark. There is no resurrection story in mart. The tomb is empty and the women ran away. Matthew… Big scene at the crucifixion people dead people start walking around. And angel shows up and scares the Roman guards away. And Jesus tells them to meet me in Galilee. Galilee is an eight day walk from Jerusalem there’s no evidence of Jesus. Appearing to the disciples and Galilee Now you have Luke. And Luke there a different witnesses to the resurrection, etc. But after the resurrection, Jesus spends 40 days hanging around Jerusalem. He orders them, Natalie, Jerusalem. He never went to the gallery. John! Joe is much later and they’re trying to bring all the stories in at once. I don’t trust. John John is a white wash.

[@Hustada]

@@gflem it’s ultimately an emotional appeal. That what I’ve noticed. It gets fluffed up with evidential claims but the belief system itself is premised on an emotional response.

[@TheWasteOfTime]

Dr. Kipp Davis has the exact same voice of someone I play D&D with online and it keeps freaking me out.

[@privettoli]

Lauter Unvollkommenheit 7 hours ago: He says his goal was to show that "Christianity was intellectually stupid". You can't really blame him for succeeding.

[@jakeoutrider7644]

Love it when you get to collaborate with a few other KZbinrs! Great info!

[@lacruzvacia7263]

Congratulations to D. Davis, he is an excellent communicator. Like him, I hate liars and charlatans. I hate being lied to and, even more, that they lie to gullible people

[@DrKippDavis]

Yeah! Liars are the worst.

[@dereknoto6555]

Dr. Josh preaching from a pulpit is a sight to see

[@History-Valley]

Awesome.

[@pamelamaddox1547]

You huys crack me up! I'm f***ing watching this 2 years after the fact, but I love you guys! Keep speaking truth.

[@nickross6364]

i really would like to see how the people who wrote and came up with this stuff would react to the world today. i mean seeing how what they wrote and created affected the world in the subsequent 2000 years.

[@gflem]

Decades ago, I had been a born-again Christian for 10 years for me at 16 age 26. It was not working for me. I was not getting the healing and support in guidance that had been promised to me. I started looking real seriously at the Bible and the New Testament and had some serious questions. For instance Matthew Jesus says go to Galilee. And Luke Jesus to stay here until the whole shit comes. Two very different factual events. I sent Josh McDowell

[@Vina_Ravyn]

I am digging the old videos. Love it.

[@tomboughan2718]

Paul Strand of CBN has same narrative as Josh, that is he was obnoxious agnostic and went on to disprove Christianity. but was converted from his research.

[@timpulver5932]

Great great video.

[@lowkeytheology]

I’m cracking up at the start with Dr Josh screaming into the mic 😂

[@Cathmoytura]

Oh, Josh McDowell. A few self-identifying Christians have found out I'm an avid reader of the Daodejing (Tao Te Ching) and consider myself Taoist. They've taken it upon themselves to attempt to proselytize me. The first one overnight went from having never heard of Taoism to suddenly having a polemic against it. The polemic was awful and based on a lot of misunderstanding of the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi, Chuang Tzu. Sometime later, much the same thing happened, and the second self-identifying Christian's sudden polemic was strikingly similar to the first. Then this happened again. I asked that person where he was getting his prefabricated arguments, because by then there was obviously a single source all of them used to suddenly have polemic against Taoism with an attempted segue into why Christianity offers what Taoists seek, but can't find in Taoism. Found out it was a Josh McDowell book. I found a copy and read what it said about Taoism. I told that person McDowell was obviously unversed in the Daodejing. He insisted McDowell obviously knew the Daodejing far better than I did, or else I'd agree with him.

[@Balance3rd]

😂 that last response!

[@Heroball299]

It's OK. You don't need to worry about what people like that think.

[@Sveccha93]

There's so much psychic pain behind that way too accurate Kent Hovind impression.

[@HumblyQuestioning]

I won't go into specifics of the testimony but I gave a public testimony in front of maybe 50 people, interview style. We practiced it numerous times, rearranged it after feedback from church leadership, i was asked to cry at some key points, and truthfully I chose (I guess that's the right word) to re-live a pretty traumatic event, in brutal detail, for…a fundraiser.

[@HumblyQuestioning]

I can't imagine the pressure Josh McDowell feels to perform for these people. It's probably amazing he wasn't institutionalized.

[@defect0r1]

Everyone on the panel is great, this was entertainment = 10

[@MarcosElMalo2]

Who among us hasn’t tried to memorize porn “for later” that we were watching in a public library. Anybody? Uh, yeah, me neither. 😅

[@DrPhilGoode]

My spank bank got a virus some years back and I lost the ability to access my 5-7 grade Sears catalog library along with all my Nat Geo magazine frontal nudes. I’m not complaining just sharing one of my many rock bottom experiences. If my story helps just 1 person appreciate what they still have it will be worth it. At least I hope so. I’m still very pissed.

[@ramigilneas9274]

Whenever I hear profound wisdom like: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.“ I always have to think of: "Set a man on fire and he will have it warm for the rest of his life.“😅

[@truthseeker2275]

Teach a man to fish and he will be an unproductive worker, then you will have to give him subsidized housing and medical care.

[@chaishalom8701]

@@truthseeker2275 * You mean "give a man a fish" and he will end up on welfare don't you?

[@chaishalom8701]

Is that comment of yours supposed to be funny?

[@melindad180]

Rami Gilneas - I thought that was so funny, the first time I heard the later (on a movie)! 😂👍

[@chaishalom8701]

@@melindad180 * Why is that "hilariously funny"?

[@LapsedSkeptic]

Dr Davis and Dr Bowen are by far my favorite relevant scholars on this subject… if we coulda got Dr Baden up in here I may have had to throw my panties.

[@tsemayekekema2918]

1:50:55 if Ezekiel himself talked about how what he predicted did not come through, then what does that tell you about what ancient Jews & christians thought about the importance of actual fulfilment of predictions? That should be an insight to how their minds worked (unlike what both modern Christians & sceptics alike are used to thinking): non-fulfilment of certain predictions wasn't seen as a(n invalidating) big deal as regards the "trueness" of their theology. This is precisely why new testament authors consistently reinterpreted the old testament prophets in ways that clearly violated the obvious literal meanings intended by the prophets (to the chagrin of contemporary outsiders to the Jesus Movement): Eschatological Temple Restoration, the Return of YHWH to Israel, Final Return From Exile & defeat of hostile Gentiles got reinterpreted as the symbolic final journey of Jesus to Jerusalem & the Temple on the Passion Week embodying YHWH, the Constitution of christian communities as the "true temple", and the delivery of the Christian message to gentiles cities etc 1:52:00 1st century christians certainly identified Jesus with YHWH (the emphases on the "name of Jesus" only makes sense as deliberate parallels to the "name of YHWH"), reinterpreted the gathering of enemy gentiles at Mt Olives as the persecutions gentile christians faced from non-christians, and were capable of loosely reinterpreting the descent of YHWH on Mt Olives as synonymous with various events such as the Triumphant Entry and even the future Parousia; ironically, they were even capable of reinterpreting the victory of the descended-on-Mt Olives-YHWH over gentile enemies as the successful defeat of non-christian Israel at the hands of Titus in 70AD (to the chagrin & outrage of their contemporary non-christian Jewish compatriots of course)

[@ChooseThisLife]

Anyone else's parents send them a copy of Josh's book after admitting they were on their way out of Christianity.

[@DrKippDavis]

My mother wanted to send me "A Case for Christ."

[@enkidufive3349]

@@DrKippDavis If she had, I suppose you could have sent her Bob Price's book "The Case Against The Case For Christ".

[@DrKippDavis]

@@enkidufive3349 I actually told her I was insulted and a little hurt that my own mother thought that failed journalist Lee Stroebel was a more reliable source about the history of Christianity than her son-a biblical scholar with a terminal degree. She came around.

[@melindad180]

My parents sent me "The Scripture Cannot Be Broken". I was wanting to follow only Jesus Words at the time, rejecting Paul. It was shocking to find out how much Christianity worships Paul's words and Paul's Jesus over the other Jesus in the Bible.

[@cindychristman8708]

I asked Sean 'what he believes and why he believes it' in the comment section of one of his videos and he said it was summarized in "Evidence That Demands a Verdict". He had his father's office send me a free copy. I have yet to read it but promised I would get back to him with my thoughts.

[@gflem]

Where do you talk about Josh McDowell? There’s a two hour conversation here I’ve kind of fast forward it. I’d like to listen to it and I certainly have some feedback

[@dreamzofhorses]

I think they are referring to the video Kipp did. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3TChJqOgL6doZY

[@karlu8553]

Dr Josh sounds like Kyle Butt debating Bart Ehrman 😅

[@ramigilneas9274]

I was listening to the video on my headphones and I honestly thought that they were playing an actual Kent Hovind video.😂

[@djfrank68]

I would like Josh McDowell to have these "friends" tell the story from their best recollection. I still remember kids I went to elementary school with and haven't seen in 40 years. I'm sure Josh could find these guys. Josh seems to be healthy. Those friends probably aren't all dead now.

[@dod-do-or-dont]

57:00 This is such mind blowing

[@zengfukushang532]

His son Sean seems a much more reasonable guy

[@kramerunstuck7263]

If Josh McDowell's God does not repent for His sins, then why should Josh?

[@davidburroughs2244]

I. Thelema - (Thelemite, a practitioner of the philosophy) ... dates back to Crowley (libertarianism) and harkens back to Hippo II 93 - I don't know, unless they indicate "a rough suburb in Paris," perhaps they mean it will be a wild old time

[@TrevorBarritt]

Karna, the oldest son of Kunti in the Mahabharata was put in a basket in a river similar Moses

[@tsemayekekema2918]

45:43 Derek is very likely to be 100% correct on that (so maybe perhaps cut the JM guy some slack on that particular detail) It can also be a useful reality guide to scholars who wildly speculate & effectively credit oral sources behind the gospels with unneccesarily (& unrealistically) high prowess in creative license: the key is a more realistic understanding of what eyewitness & members of 1st century christian communities could & could not garble through a process analogous to the kind Derek describes from his own personal experience. That said, most of what you find in the gospels can't be reasonably explained by such memory distortion mechanisms (as long as you keep antisupernatural bias aside). Richard Bauckham's seminars & lectures on eyewitness testimony in relation to the gospels (available on youtube) & his books like Jesus & the Eyewitnesses (along with it's upcoming sequel) gives a more reality-based assessment of these issues

[@timothymulholland7905]

A classmate and I were together when we heard the news of JFK’s assassination over the radio. We have lived apart for for 60 years since. Our memories of the surrounding events and details are totally different. Neither of us is probably historically correct, except of the news flash on the radio. Research has shown that our memories are reconstructions, not recordings. We all are influenced by intervening and current experiences. We also tend to simplify and smooth out our reports and even conform them to standard narratives. Josh may honestly change his story over time. By writing it down, however, he provides a record of those changes and exposes his inconsistencies. As an apologist, of course, he has a vested interest in proving a point, which makes all of his discourse suspect.

[@tedschwartz2142]

Does He KNOW ABOUT THE HINDU GODS And THe BAGAVAD GITA AND VEDAS ???

[@Callum679]

The emphasis on 'First Century' as a date for a bit of Mark is really weird to me. What's the difference between 99 and 101CE? Weren't all the apologists convinced by the evidence (which I'm sure they would describe as excellent and exceptional) before then that the resurrection was real etc etc anyway?

[@bludfyre]

I think it was meant to be more a 90 vs 125 CE (early second century is the first half, since you can't get a precise date)... which is basically a 1 whole generation difference. Because if there is a fragment of Mark in Egypt in 90 CE that was considered such trash it was used as a funerary mask, then Mark itself would have to then have been written earlier (enough earlier that it would probably mean it was before the destruction of the Temple) which means Jesus successfully prophesied the destruction, which means he really WAS the son of God, which means Christianity is true, which means "In your FACE, atheists!" /s

[@Callum679]

@@bludfyre Ah ok, I see, so basically if it was being used for trash in 90CE then there must have been lots of copies around, you need time to make lots of copies, therefore earlier writing date? Thanks for explaining :).

[@pamelamaddox1547]

Does anyone understand historical fiction? It is the incorporation of myth/fiction into historical time periods. I don't understand how ANYONE can miss this. It is so elementary!

[@jamesstaplesv]

you guys should do a life expose' of Schoenbelen king of liars

[@truthprevails5173]

What about the guy who sits at W.H? What is the priority. that guy or Schoenbelen? People are getting killed in Kabul!

[@LS-kl6bj]

1960 -- McDowell transferred to Wheaton College . . . which is in Wheaton, IL.

[@DrKippDavis]

Yeah, but who the hell knows where "Wheaton IL" is?

[@covertgreen]

how did God instruct a man in the bible to murder his own son? I was born again under water years ago. I believe now that God is 'nameless', and requires not, any sacrifices, as everyone is accountable for their own actions and thoughts. God gives grace, mercy and love to everyone, according to their own hearts, spirits and intentions .

[@markvonwisco7369]

0:59:09 Testify Dr. Josh! Testify!

[@Hustada]

IT'S TRUE!!

[@DHizzle82]

How many former Christians were depressed back in the day because you didn't have a cool testimony? I was. You got Phil who just joined the church who was a rapist, serial killer, and drug addict. He also ran a dog fighting ring. And then one day while he was abusing one of his hoes (he was a pimp, too), Jesus called out to him! He was mid pimp-slap when he heard the voice of God telling him to repent. Then I'm over here like "Yeah, I grew up in the church, got baptized when I was 8, and have lived a good life ever since. One time, though, I stole a pack of gum from the grocery store, so I had sin in my life, too." I think it was in high school I complained to my small group leader at church camp that I had a boring testimony. I appreciated their response of "praise God for that", saying that it meant my parents had done their job correctly. It's all bullshit. So glad I'm over it. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go work on my de-conversion testimony.

[@sourceoflife1328]

ITS TRUE, ITS TRUE, ITS TRUE, HE MAYBE WAS A FAN KURT ANGLE WWE WRESTLER.

[@Sportliveonline]

How can we know what is true in the first place ??

[@Balance3rd]

You have to feel it in your heart

[@MarcosElMalo2]

By asking for evidence and verifying that it is what it is claimed to be. Evidence alone might not prove something true, but it’s where you start.

[@spacedoohicky]

I wonder what Shawn McDowell thinks about all this.

[@DrKippDavis]

It's "Sean."

[@spacedoohicky]

@@DrKippDavis I don't really care that much. Thanks I guess.

[@lileveyc]

K don’t need this, I’ve never heard of this in my entire time as a apologist

[@brianreardon159]

Palmolive soap. How biblical.

[@markvonwisco7369]

If Dr. Josh and Dr. Kipp really wanted to cash in, they could do the "I was a PhD scholar and hardened atheist, but then..." Although I don't know either of you personally, my impression is that you're both too ethical to do this. @Kipp Davis @Digital Hammurabi

[@hermanhale9258]

Er, the whole Bible is a bunch of bunk from the beginning.

[@timothymulholland7905]

You guys don’t understand! Jesus told him, which is why he can be sure and you heathens can’t. Josh gets you.