poe dev talks about the skill tree

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[@nolle]

that moment of opening the skill tree is what sold me on path of exile

[@sephrinx4958]

Yep. Same. I hit P and I immediately got a massive erection.

[@prosamis]

100%. Me too. I remember little me ten years ago going "WOA" when I saw it Made me play the game for an entire decade and hopefully another still

[@silvha]

Indeed. "Ca- can I choose ANY path?!" I knew I was in for a long while. Then, I saw support gems and how these interact. Years have passed.

[@LongX49]

the skill tree, the gem, not binded to any class is what sold poe to me. been a decade...

[@fawazgerhard2742]

That applies to majority of poe players but for newcomers, path of exile overly complicated skill tree design pushes them away and poe players wondered why poe is not gaining huge popularity + why the gatekeeping towards new players or standard league players exists (standards usually newcomers or people with time restrains). Other games like ARPGs for example, they're easier to enter the game compared to poe even like Last Epoch or Diablo 4. If a person won't get into ARPGs though, they would a person who isn't into APRGs would play Path of Exile? Take Elden Ring for example, everyone knows that Elden Ring is a difficult game but at its core, the game is really simple, its just dodge and hit and making builds are simpler.

[@yammoto148]

I never minded the complexity of the skill tree, what I hated was that it was difficult to experiment with builds without starting over or farming an obscene amount of currency.

[@Memebrain777]

Huh? Regrets are like .5 chaos

[@tesladrew2608]

​@@Memebrain777that's a lot when you only have 50c

[@yammoto148]

@@Memebrain777 This league sure

[@viperdragz4403]

@@Memebrain777 I think the issue is more apparent during the acts. You have very little currency by that point(if it’s league start or ssf) and you can’t really experiment or go back on a bad choice if you mess up

[@AnimaPrisma_]

This so much. I wish they added free respecs prior to level 70 or something. I know it would change the meta so much for minmaxin, but it would definitely help newcomers.

[@amethonys2798]

I feel like all PoE really needs to "fix" the skill tree is to make regrets more plentiful. This could be through more books throughout the campaign or through just making the orbs more common. It should never be more worthwhile to literally remake your character from scratch if you bricked it as a new player than to respec, but that's the reality of the system when a regret is usually about 0.5c (give or take) and the people that REALLY need the regrets can't actually farm for them since they have a bricked build getting exploded in act 7 or whatever.

[@MrMelani1]

in poe2 regrets are replaced with gold and dev said that will be easier to respec, especially early on

[@JordaanM]

I am yet to hear a downside to having respeccing be free up until you end the campaign.

[@asmosisyup2557]

It's almost never worth restarting from scratch, its far far more efficient to just use orbs, unless you can somehow level faster than you can click. Unless you're wanting to use a different classes ascendancies that is.

[@henriquerodrigues7795]

​@@JordaanMme neither. I'd say I haven't heard good arguments against respeccing for free in most RPGs. Even in Poe, if you just allowed ppl to Respec at town or hideout for free, imo that'd be great. "Oh but ppl will change shit before every map", well honestly who cares? If ppl wanna ruin their own gameplay with that sort of thing, then let them lol.

[@TypingHazard]

New player: cool i think i have the skill tree figured out PoE: here, try crafting

[@Floyder...]

Ive been playing POE for years now i still have no fucking idea how to make a build with the skill tree

[@badplaysdeadmeems6489]

Same brother 😅

[@agureiodle2690]

have you tried?

[@Biouke]

To me half of the fun of RPGs is building your character, I played PoE since beta but only started playing regularly around the Legacy league after watching a guide explaining how defensive layers and damage work, from that point I started making progress and seeing where I did mistakes when what I tried wasn't viable. A good practice would be to test things in Standard league, you get free respecs and have a lot of gear on hand to test things without having to do the campaign all over again. I think those last 2 years I spent more time on the wiki and PoB and in Standard "league" trying fun builds and seeing how far I can push them than making new temp leagues characters.

[@spiteknight6415]

Honestly its way easier than you think. Just path to nodes that help your build and are in a general same area, for 75% of builds thats enough. If you want to minmax a tree, PoB has a bunch of ways to fine tune a tree with precise numbers about how each node affects your stats and the efficiency of going to each node. Clusters and stuff like thread of hope add some complexity, but its pretty easy to just keep 5 points in the pocket for a cluster, etc.

[@TehJaska]

You never learn if you never try. Play a couple leagues in HCSSF and you will learn the games mechanics. Once you learn those mechanics, it's very easy to make your own builds, since you will know what you need.

[@kpxtreame]

i remember when i opened the skill tree and i just went "oh fuck yeah" and got planning, i want that again with PoE2 so bad.

[@KernalGohd]

Following the tutorial, it asks you to open the skill tree, you see the entire thing right away but only for a moment as it zooms in to where it actually matters, the starting location having 3 colors to match each archetype with clear art on the background for each one as well. It explains that beyond this view there is lots to discover, but right now is the start of something greater, the first steps. If the player zooms out a little bit those colors start to fade off as it gets further away as it gets more specific. This would keep that wow factor but also help direct people right off the cuff into what they're looking for, while also letting them know that you know it's a big tree. I think what scares people is the thought that in order to play they have to understand the whole tree, that it all matters, when what actually matters is where you go, not what you pick.

[@spiteknight6415]

Not sure why this needs to be addressed. Everyone knows that PoE1 is just a sandbox simulator for Path of Building

[@Lumintorious]

I genuinely think not having the full skill tree visible would alienate the exact niche of players that enjoy PoE. When I opened it up for the first time, I wasn't like "oh, so much stuff, my brain hurts", I was like "OMG, so much to learn, I can play this forever"

[@daedalus6433]

Yeah, my autistic brain loved seeing the skill tree the first time

[@lootjunior]

What the skill tree always missed was ironically some paths that show on the tree. Those patrhs could then guide the new players into some basic classes. After a while players will branch off from those paths and then learn to make builds. They also need to make it so that you can mark and save your own path on teh skill tree, I often came back to the game after a while and then I couldn't remember which way I wanted to go, forcing me to start a new character.

[@philophobic8023]

Honestly the easiest fix for the skill tree is to just show us stats tbh.... like show me what PoB shows natively in the game and it gets instantly way more intuitive because you can see the effect of certain nodes immediatly.... another thing that would help with the skill tree is just condensing certain passives or separating for example stat alocation from the rest of the tree so you can just get a easier grasp of how to build a build... because for example a lot of newer players atleast my friends when they started out they struggled with stat requirements and not knowing how certain skill points affect your build

[@T8-TR]

Just give me an easily accessible respec and they can make the tree as complicated as they want. I just don't wanna sink 30 hours into a playthrough, only to realize I fucked a node up 10 hours back and the only way to reset it is either "make a new character" or "do X or Y tedious ass thing to respec". If it was a 1 button, free respec, I genuinely don't think people would be nearly as stressed out about the passive tree, since any mistake can be easily rectified.

[@Dschonathan]

The consequence of that would be a push towards respeccing for a specific type of content, and then switching back. The Poe Devs often talk about and constantly get shit for the weight of actions and choices, but they are exactly right in that this is an example of a qol "fix" that would make the game worse.

[@Rexolf101]

This is really only a problem if you're wanting to fully redo your build, you really can't mess your build up from taking one or 2 wrong nodes, the game also gives you 20 respect points through side quests for free, and you're likely to get a few orbs of regret too. By the end of the campaign that's like a quarter of your whole build that you can change

[@henriquerodrigues7795]

​@@Dschonathanthat's a really weird argument cuz the ppl that will do that sort of thing have the choice to make those changes. They are making their own experience worse by choosing to Respec for every typo of content. Why should anyone care about their self inflicted harm? It's literally the meme of the stick on the bycicle wheel, you're sabotaging your own experience and then balming on the free Respec, it's absolutely ridiculous, if they didnt have free Respec they wouldnt do it, so how about this? Don't fucking do it, even tho you have the option to do it for free you do not have to!

[@Dschonathan]

@@henriquerodrigues7795 you can rant about how illogical it is all day, players will optimize the fun out of a game every time they are presented the opportunity, especially in a game like PoE that is specifically made for this type of minmaxing player.

[@renardtempleton]

If they wanted to change something, you could do a fog of war on the passive tree until you complete act 1 for new accounts. There would have to be some sort of grand animation to show the skill tree after you completed the act. Similar to scion, once you complete the objective, you have the full tree unlocked for any future play through.

[@leederlee]

I like the idea. Of a class specific section until lvl 10-15 and then it opened up to all nodes

[@trixon2118]

Fog of war would make it harder for first time making own build. Right now, you're looking at further passives that gives bonuses that you need, and you path to them. If there was a fog of war for passives, then I could start putting in points, and then it turns out thst best passive that I need is all the way on the other side together with other good passives

[@Biouke]

Seeing all the skill tree is good for planning. The problem is having no in-game detailed explanation about defensive layers and starting the game not knowing what to aim for in term of health pool and damage. That's what results in hurting difficulty walls and having to start a new character. No death log also causes this problem of not knowing what exactly got wrong with one's build.

[@SlugDemon6]

I totally agree with Jonathan's take about respec causing you to kinda lose a connection to your character. I typically don't like to play multiple builds on a single character. I like to play one build on one character because, to me, it feels like that character kinda identifies with that one build. I don't like totally respeccing into something totally different unless it's like from a leveling build to a final build, but even then, I don't always like to use leveling builds. I do like respec for the ability to try different things out before like fully committing to something. Like when you play your first character you typically don't know what you wanna do with it at that point. PoE1 is not a game you can just expiriment with different things to see what you what you wanna do. It's basically recommended by any one who played PoE to start with a build guide, so that's just saying KNOW what you wanna do with your character before you start.

[@rlowethewitch8417]

Fog of war on the skill tree would definitely be a hindrance since it feels more restrictive. What I think needs to be made clear up front for new players is that all characters share the same tree but start out in different areas. I think this could be done with etchings of the classes other than what you choose in their respective areas, or color code those parts of the tree in accordance to their attribute, or larger bits of art in the center of each cluster so you can see “oh, I’m looking at bow stuff, I don’t need that cause I’m a Witch” or something

[@ciboria1]

Two questions; How about a toggle function if you wanted the normal PoE skill tree, or could have a 1/2/3/4+ viewable clusters around you? Or A partly fog of war; Where you can see the effect type of a cluster [increased speed, dmg, and so on], but only in a 2 cluster range from yours? D

[@michal1743]

Imho, solution here is to have skill tree builder in game with option of loading the skill tree path into the game so it automatically picks skills for players without the need to go for builds outside of the game.

[@MrSabnova3415]

You shouldn’t need a wiki to make a competent build. But he doesn’t seem to care that it’s that complex. Not saying choices should be brain dead easy, but playing a character, messing up skill points and being forced to start over sucks. I’ve had friends quit because they felt they wasted time doing that.

[@Masatakeshi]

What about something like one or two tutorialized pre-made approved buids per class, maybe changing each season, that you can opt out at any time.

[@4scoopcmon]

Hard agree with Jonathan as far as how iconic the skill tree has become, no other game is like it. I think what would be more helpful than hiding it would be just a little bit of beginner "making your build" tips windows in your first couple times opening it. Like "as you can see, both defense and offense are spread somewhat evenly around this tree. It is up to you to decide how much of each, but be careful of taking all offense (oh and by the way you HAVE to take every +life node you see and even go out of your way to get it)" Its being thrown in with no tips from the game that adds to the overwhelm. I understand that a lot of the game is that you figure out what to do across multiple characters, and get better. Entry-level players may not be coming in with this mindset, however. Especially when their first character can take weeks to brick.

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

Final Fantasy X fans like me know damn well the opening of that skill tree might be a quit moment for some, but a gigantic boner moment for us. We get that huge thing all to ONE character? Sign me the fuck up.

[@SpookySkeleton738]

these discussions always gloss over us complexity enjoyers who picked up the game BECAUSE we saw the skill tree, not in spite of it

[@costcoemployee6007]

had this same reaction, FFX sphere grid on steriods

[@dash_o_pepper]

A lot of these comments are very dismissive or borderline gatekeeping of new players. It's great that you opened the skill tree and felt excited, or that you like that the game doesn't hold your hand, or that you have to use 3rd party tools to plan a good build. But if this game is going to be successful it needs more than a niche fanbase, it needs to get new players. You can keep the complexity without scaring off potential long-term players.

[@cwwisch]

They will never do it but I think there should be a starter tree, then, like cluster jewels, but bigger you drop new parts of the tree you can socket in, there could also be trees guaranteed from quests like gems. I understand why things aren't this way but I think it would be cool if they weren't

[@Munkee1980]

Here is what I genuinely don't understand: Okay, if you are the type of person who feels disconnected from your character due to respec, or does not like it for some reason, there is a simple solution: Do not respec. it's your choice. Even if the game has infinite free respecs, just don't use them. BUT on the other hand, if you are someone who loves to try different things and who wants to respec a lot, there is no easy solution for you. My own compromise would be: you can respec at any time, but you lose a few levels for doing so. That would mean respec has a cost, it's not something you'd want to do willy nilly for no reason. BUT if you genuinely mucked up your build, like I have done in the past, I'd rather re-earn say, 10 levels, than have to start from scratch. Maybe just me?

[@henriquerodrigues7795]

That's precisely why Last epochs respeccing of skills is so genius, once you get late into the game, trying new things with your skills takes out like 4 points, which you get back in like 5 minutes. That said, absolutely AMÉM to your comment, I have yet to hear a good reason against free respeccing in most RPGs, it is a benefit for the entire playerbase except maybe the super high end 1% because they will feel the need to Respecc for every single thing they do... Well my answer to that is that you made this choice yourself, and I do not give a shit, if you don't wanna have to do it, just don't do it lol

[@user-km7yr8wl6q]

That moment of opening the skill tree is what sold me on this game.

[@asmosisyup2557]

Well, half the skill tree (map skill tree) is hidden until you reach the endgame

[@jeffsonpc6231]

Anyone play those games that gives you like the best gear or best stats then takes it away after the tutorial area? Maybe a play on this would make poe2 more approachable then poe for new players. Something like show players what great gear looks like. A pre-build on the tree that can kill the hardest content then strip it away so you have a goal that comes after hundreds of hours playing. You can veer from the path but at least there's something there for more people to grasp and give a taste of what end game looks like. Idk just a thought.

[@charlesqbanks]

I was definitely one of those people who saw the skill tree, and clicked out of the game, overwhelmed. I've tried for about 60 hours to enjoy the game and still can't get into it. Perhaps POE 2 will be better on this point.

[@chippomippo5138]

IMO, it could be "solved" with the map approach, as they have discussed. Add to the skill tree some sort of a Point of Interest, visual clues, (how about something like a cool statue, that roughtly describes what the blood magic node do?), that you could look at, while zoomed out, and say - hey, this looks cool, ill go there!

[@Rykarie]

Just make it free respecs for acts, problem solved

[@Meatbrawl]

A default option/tutorial/build would mean when the player says wow this is too complex and have to put too much thought and effort in to this thing that I may not even like they can just put off the learning process until they want to opt in to it. The player sees things like +10% elemental damage with no context as to what that even means, or even how hard it is to do elemental damage. Or passives that effect specific skills etc. A new player isn't making a decision about their early skill points as they're uninformed, the game is making you guess. But there is already a solution and that is people recommend following a build guide. Heck tie it in with being able to load a pob guide in to the game and have it highlight the skill tree to follow it and suddenly newbies have an even easier time getting in to the game with no need to download external tools.

[@SephonDK]

Ironically, this is one of the few points where the Paragon board in D4 could have done it better than PoE, imo. Hear me out. Because you build your own skill tree modularily, there's potentially more build options for characters. And because you get one board at a time, a new player will only have to think about one smaller skill tree at a time. In that sense, it's kind of a win-win. The problem is that the Paragon board is like 95% travel nodes. There's not a lot of Chaos Inoculation and similar. Bonuses to things are either too specific or not varied enough. The actual payoff is dull.

[@SakeeFiction]

if per 1 hour of gameplay, I need to look 30 min at build on the wiki and 30 min play game, Im not playing it after 1st hour

[@bozy0223]

you either open the skill tree and fall in love, or you delete the game. No in between.

[@bluepriest6990]

I think they need to tone down the early game difficulty too i know they just buffed the early game difficulty and all that for veteran players but if you are a new player and this is your very first experience with a game like this it gives the game a very difficult onboarding experience.

[@ReRubis]

The biggest lie is the fact that the tree is just big. It's not even complex. It's a ton of "12% increased" here and there. Just pick what's applicable to you with some life around and you can already finish acts and some low tier maps. The amount of notables that actually change stuff is way lower. Masteries add to the complexity a lot tho.

[@prosamis]

Yes. This is a psychological problem more than a mechanical one. The huge dissonance between between expectation and being blasted by a big tree makes people shut down. It's complex in that it's difficult to approach from a blank slate and not knowing what to do

[@Jon0sterman]

Best thing about poe is 2 click exit of the game, I mean that unironically

[@jameson478]

Seeing some clips from this interview, all I have to say is good job, You are a fantastic interviewer!!

[@reidtawil8928]

The first time I saw discussion about Path of Exile, I saw an image of the skill tree and I saw gameplay footage of someone playing Flicker Strike. I was sold. I'm convinced GGG could make PoE2 to be an enjoyable game without a skill tree, though I think this would be quite jarring for the enfranchised playerbase. I think players would get used to it and enjoy the game regardless.

[@tighlia3375]

An analogue for the "Seeing your skill tree as visible state in the world" could be going back and playing Fable 3 (as bad of an idea as that generally is), since you choose what to level up when, but you get chests to choose from as you progress through the game. Very unique thing to do. Not sure if I liked it over what the first and second games gave you, but it was different.

[@VegaSnipe]

While I don't think it would help with the complexity of the game, I think there should be waypoint nodes that let you teleport to other parts of the tree. Kind of like on the atlas skill tree except more of them.

[@Mattfreeman89]

Josh you are really advocating for over designing something that doesn't need to be added I don't even play the game, but you're suggesting to do a bunch of work for really no reason. Spend time and resources just to fundamentally change a game that has been out for years. Even a minute amount of research about the game will reveal what it's about. Sad to hear that Jonathan is strongly against respec mechanics. Grim dawn allows for it and it's amazing. If i had to reroll just to test things out the game would be miserable to play.

[@keysmash]

Hail marry but Josh if you remember that game you had to fight yourself to respec can you update us in the comments? That sounds really interesting.

[@timothy9393]

You could actually fix this whole problem by making the first level up give an ascendancy point. Think about it, youre offering them a choice between… 16 or so skill points to invest in right at the start depending on the ascendancy. It also means you select it you will be a necromancer or an occultist from the moment you start playing, which already creates a thematic scaffold to build the idea of your character on

[@timothy9393]

I want to make clear that 16 options at the start is still.. overwhelming, but its nothing compared to the tree.

[@lucasmonteiro5938]

make a functional build without being penalized, without needing to watch a video guide It's minimal

[@utmastuh]

PoE's complexity lies within the tribal knowledge of understanding how everything works. If they actually added better in game tool tips and recommendations then the complexity would fall off easily. However, they don't want to spend the time/money doing that and rely heavily on third party tools, websites, and content creators that they don't have to pay for. At a bare minimum they should at least provide starter build guides in game like ESO does

[@DoctorStrange01]

That's why PoE 2 will be supposedly way better at explaining things and introducing them to the player, which you can already see glimpses of from that "content creator beta", or whatever one could call it. All skills literally have a short video showing what it does and a description of it. The skill gem system is way easier to grasp cause it's simplified, no more dumb link puzzles. I think i've seen the passive skill tree being easier to understand too with some hints about nodes and stuff. But even the devs agree that you need to use the third party tools to plan a build in PoE, lol. Pretty sure they aim for a lot more players for PoE 2, so they HAVE to make it more accessible, if they don't only PoE players will play it, which they don't want.

[@desober3368]

Bro let the guy your interviewing speak lmao

[@triceratops1260]

this game already locks shit enough on killing bosses hell no, i hope the entire skill tree is unlocked in poe2 just like now

[@FSNanashi]

Absolutely agree with Jonathan that a full respec feels dislocating. Every time I've respecced a character in Elden Ring to try something different It's completely ended my attachment to the character and been a big speed bump in that playthrough.

[@prosamis]

I spend a HUGE portion of my "playtime" outside of poe, and I love that. Genuinely. I love doing research to make my own build. Reading every relevant unique, checking out different gems with their different numerical values and tags, mechanics, cluster jewel mods, ascendencies, etc It's so fun

[@Taiyri]

The "I get it moment" that Josh is talking about takes hours of gameplay to fully sink in, in my opinion. I didn't start to feel like I had a handle on the basics of the game until like my 3rd or 4th league. It was an absolute slog at times but that "I get it" moment was a long way off from when I first looked at the fully zoomed out skill tree.

[@MrAvaricia]

Tried PoE twice already. No. I can't. Give me free or cheap respeccs. Having to play hundreds of hours following a guide is trash

[@HeavyClaw]

Sooooo basically because of the current dedicated playerbase, new players has to pain the first ever skill tree, okay I get it.

[@635574]

The whole skill tree at onc is definitely overwhelming for most people. Not everyone is complexity nerd. If you can code a toggle, you can add an optional fading function to the skill tree, and some of the core parts need to be always visible.

[@isoldmymumforrp5371]

I really hate the fact that nowadays everyfucking thing has to be simplified. The skilltree isnt even complex at all, its vast. If its the skilltree that people misslike for being "too complex" then its defnitely just not their choice of game to pick. Its that simple.

[@RH-of5cr]

Josh's idea of hand holding is awful for this game. Go play a million other games that do this. POE is the best game I've played and I have played a lot. It is unique among all others and would be disgusting to have it covered in butter and cotton.

[@slcLbens]

it "feels" complex but when your level 1 you only have 2 choices of where you can put your skill points

[@wobblysauce]

Fighting another You would be great.

[@Macdaddy8124U]

Path of Exile would NOT be difficult for new players if GGG would STOP messing with the campaign! Separate the campaign from the league mechanic and make the league mechanic for end game only....

[@car-keys]

I WANT to play a game where you have to have the wiki open at all times! That's what's so great about PoE!

[@oORoOFLOo]

Feels like josh is arguing for the sake of arguing. Jon thought about this with his team for a long time idk ehy josh is pushing really "noob" and flimsy ideas onto him. I think Jon is right that best solution is better description of the nodes. Perhaps there could be pop ups about "go left for strenght" or "attack speed is good for build which attack with weapons including now" but locking portions of the tree is mega flimsy.

[@Klyttorius]

I'm not a fan of the PoE passive tree. I have ADHD. I get overwhelmed too easily. Moving to the nodes you want takes too much time and doesn't feel that rewarding to me. Not to mention the low legendary drop rates during the campaign. Legendaries are for endgame drops or purchasing on the market for most people. That's just not good gameplay loop to me. Am thoroughly enjoying Last Epoch though.

[@waylandwalace3302]

PoE is a complicated game, trying to disguise that or lie to a player that it isn't is doing a disservice. No one is looking at PoE's steam page and going Oh boy that sure does look like a fun lil' R P G game! No they are already going to be at least vaguely familiar based on reputation alone only to then be further confirmed by the steam reviews about its complexity. DO NOT OBSCURE THE MAIN SELLING POINT OF YOUR GAME. there is no such thing as a "wider audience" or "casual player" for these types of games. Its not CoD its not fortnite and it wont ever be. The core audience is hardcore complexity spreadsheet loving fanatics and those are the ONLY people you should tailor the experience for no if ands or buts. Jump in the pool the waters fine or swim someplace else should be the attitude of the devs and community.

[@Oler-yx7xj]

Fog of war skill tree sounds like a fun thing, I would've played a game centered around something like that

[@Intestine_Ballin-ism]

Just play the Krangle event and see how fun it feels hah

[@thecivil8]

Sounds fun until you want to start planning out your skill tree with POB. It would probably encourage third party plugins that are against TOS anyway haha.

[@blackomega34]

'fog of war skill tree' is basically what Vampire Survivors-like games are all about, just it's not presented in the form of a tree, you choose RNG upgrades every level and hope that synergistic stuff pops up later, and you have to choose between investing in stuff that pays off later, stuff that'll patch up holes in your build (eg. I have no movespeed boosts and enemies are getting fast, should I grab this bit of movespeed because I don't I might be stuck being too slow for a while?), stuff that's better early (eg. forced crits vs full hp enemies), unlock skills that you need synergies with and hope you find the synergistic thing at a later level, etc. etc.

[@cup9387]

Theres a game called "Talented" where thats the whole focal point of the game, a giant, randomized, fog of war talent tree

[@BurnettGaming]

"the act of respeccing always feels very dislocating for me" While I'm someone who respecs pretty heavily pretty often in PoE, I totally identify with Jonathan here. There's always a bit of a system shock whenever you respec and are getting acclimated to your new tree, your new build, your new skills, etc. It can feel very jarring even if it's worth it in the long run by a long way. I do appreciate that there needs to be some friction for letting players sign up for that feeling otherwise players are likely to sorta harm themselves more often than I think is healthy for gameplay. In the same vein, I completely agree with Jonathan's notion about identifying with your character. The main thing that sets path of exile apart from all the other games in the genre is that when you build a character, that's *your* character. In newer Diablos, if I make a Barbarian, It's my barbarian but that's all I am. I'm one of many barbarians and theirs few identifying features because it's so easy to swap up. I'm not a whirlwind barbarin, I'm just a barbarian, because 10 minutes from now I could be a different type of barbarian. I think it's valuable that every time you do a build in PoE, you're making *your* version of that character.

[@TheAwkwardGuy]

Can't they just give infinite free respecs on the tree?

[@roadogsc]

Their reasoning for it is that you would disconnect from your character and would become un-invested if you would change the identity of your character. Also, needing to get the respec points is also an investment so when you make the more minor adjustments, it is still you investing in your character. Personally, I agree with them as in Diablo 4, I changed my character from a flame wizard (or whatever, it has been a while) to an arc one and I immediately felt disconnected from it. I was doing more damage, but it didn't feel like my character anymore. Even if you are following a build guide, you are still looking for personal armor related to that character, +1 gems, ele damage, cast/attack speed, etc. The other side of that spectrum is, if your build is dumb and you spec-ed nothing but life or nothing but damage and you are zdps or getting one shot, it doesn't matter if you are invested or not. You cannot continue with that character so you need to do a major respec which you are too broke for, or re-roll the character which is not only uninvesting, but taking it out back behind the shed. Without creating more paragraphs, the answer is not infinite free respects as there are more issues related to that than just connection and investment. However, the current system isn't great either. Giving more respecs or allowing you to change the tree easier (refund and allocate at the same time as a 1 point change can cost 4 regrets) are options but something should be done.

[@Intestine_Ballin-ism]

​@@roadogscthey got it right 2 titles ago, why do they have to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than streamlining the game for the lowest common denominator

[@TheAwkwardGuy]

@@roadogsc I mean, I totally see your argument, but I feel like I just don't think that way. PoE1 looked like a great game that I couldn't play since it had so many roadblocks to your progression (as a clueless player that just didn't have the game "click" for him) such as the skill tree (no respecs) or gem system (you get a stronger item, but it doesn't have the gem slots you want). I actually never even felt like needing to respec, but knew that I would 100% fuck my build over if I didn't follow a guide. There's just no coming back from a mistake that WILL happen eventually. It could just "not be the game for me", and I am totally ok with that. PoE2 seems like it would be the game I would love though. 1. WASD Movement 2. Gem system is fixed and straightforward 3. You pick what skills to use on a gem Could've sworn it had some more cool stuff that I remember seeing in trailers, but these 3 alone are already leagues better than PoE1.

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

@@roadogsc The funny thing is Final Fantasy X already fixed this issue. If you needed to backtrack on the Sphere Grid, you can move 4 spaces with a single Sphere Level. You still had to earn them, but by the time you might feel the need TO backtrack, you're at the end of the game where your EXP (or AP, shush) needed to gain a level is capped, so you're no longer losing progress by backtracking anyway. And since there's no "level cap" since you're just earning points to move your node and not a character level that stops at a certain point, you're never screwed over at an arbitrary point since you can just keep infinitely gaining levels at the same rate you have been by the time the endgame was unlocked. Sure, doing that in Path of Exile compared to a 7-person JRPG party is more than a little insane and kind of NEEDS to be halted at a certain point, I'm just saying FFX made A solution.

[@AKATensive]

Bad take Josh. this was 19 minutes of you trying to prove them wrong on something that literally is almost the best marketing move they've done for the game.

[@sharkh20]

Everyone knows and expects the skill tree at this point so all of this is pointless

[@gocalixto]

Disagree completely, tutorials suck, nobody reads, specially not native English speakers. Even if the game is localized. Intuitive means learning by doing mistakes and not being penalized while learning. I'm more on Jonathan side here. However I do believe they could slowly in the UX highlighted differences between Energyshield/Maximum Life, Dodge/Block, Evasion/Physical Dmg Red, Spell Suppression/Spell block/Max Res. these things you can only understand and master after years playing.

[@AlastairGames]

Solution = Fog of War + Randomization This way it's impossible to look up the full skill tree, because it's different for everyone.

[@AlastairGames]

​@@firelordkushroll thanks for reading and responding, however you haven't offered anything to suggest why it would be worse. I understand that people have different tastes though. If they designed with it in mind from the start, it would be quite an interesting system. You'd have to make decisions as you discover more nodes, rather than just following a plan. It would also offer more unique variability between each character. However, it also primarily fixes the biggest issue: the overwhelming data of the massive skill tree that the player is suddenly presented with, causing instant analysis paralysis, and as Josh said = a quit moment.

[@NLGildra]

@@AlastairGames In what way would randomization be a solution to PoE passive skill tree? Random means you can get either good or bad options. What if you play a cold damage build and you get offered lightning damage passives? What if you need more health, but you only get offered damage? What if you want more evasion, but RNG decides it's time for block nodes? How would respeccing work? do you keep the same passive nodes or do new options generate? New options would mean people would keep hitting the respec button until they get the most efficient or powerful option available. If you keep the same nodes players are stuck with potentially bricked talent trees and would be incentiviced to make new characters till RNG doesn't dick them over, sounds like such a great gameplay loop. Would randomization work the same way legion jewels work? That would be aweful for new and old players. The only argument you're making is to kill the ability to follow a build guide? In what world does that solve anything for new players? All it does is offer the ability to brick a character.

[@AlastairGames]

@@NLGildra thank you for the thoughtful response

[@matthewbentley1236]

This argument about the skill tree from Josh always feels like he's talking down the intelligence of players and wanting to treat them like little kids. Not a fan of the infantilizaton of players that he's pushing, though maybe that's his past as a teacher at play.

[@SonicBoyster]

It’s based on the observed reality that player retention drops off a cliff after people are introduced to the skill tree. That isn’t subjective. He is encouraging player retention.

[@UltimaKeyMaster]

@@SonicBoyster But the thing is that skill tree is like the least complicated thing about Path of Exile. If you don't make them fall off the cliff now, they'll fall off the cliff in 20-30 hours when they've realized there's far far more complex things that'll piss them off about having just wasted their weekend grinding to get to. You'd rather they move on instantly to see who your ACTUAL audience is than cause a gigantic drop-off midway through because of legitimately bad design.

[@mercerwing1458]

Really milking the most out of this

[@IbMei]

1 minute with only 3 views and no comments? You fell off. Smh