Worst MMO Ever? - Neverwinter

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If you claim to love something, you need to be willing to critique it honestly.
I love Neverwinter.
So I must critique it.
Neverwinter Online is an action combat MMO made by Cryptic Studios, it was my main MMO for years, I love the game, but, I cannot recommend it in its current state.
Thanks to the Patreon supporters and Twitch subs who keep the channel going.

[@FrankTheTank107]

How to enjoy Neverwinter: Step 1: Make a character you think looks & sounds cool Step 2: Level to Max Step 3: Stop playing. You've enjoyed everything that is enjoyable and you will forever continue chasing the same high.

[@hunterupton5809]

Accurate.

[@starwinter6845]

I played Neverwinter when it was in beta/just past full release. This was my experience and the experience of my friend group. We got to max level, realized there was NO end game content to be found, got bored, and dipped. We said we might return to it if that ever changed, but it didn't. Such a sad tale.

[@hoshiwrld]

@@starwinter6845 come back to neverwinter 🥲

[@MiuTakigawa]

@@starwinter6845 but its the type of game where you can meet new people and make friends 😁 i made great friends from this game

[@b.1099]

@@starwinter6845 Obviously it's not a single-player campaign game. Get educated.

[@deafcommplays7676]

"New players aren't playing through your memories." Man I felt that.

[@Nerobyrne]

Yeah, I think that's why WoW finally died. It was a truly amazing experience at the start, but that time has passed. And I'm glad we're moving on. But, it will always have a special place in my heart, no matter what happens. Because it shaped part of who I am as a person, today.

[@DS-mv2lk]

@@Nerobyrne Runescape is the perfect example

[@TheParaxore]

@@DS-mv2lk yeah... OSRS is still a great game and has lots of players but it just doesn't hit the same in this day and age.

[@carterstrain9951]

@@DS-mv2lk rs3 has been growing for a while but slowly. I think osrs is slowly shrinking but definately healthy. I'm pretty sure most rs3 players are new compared to veteran osrs players that moved to rs3.

[@DS-mv2lk]

@@carterstrain9951 true but Runescape literally died in 2012. The experience will never be the same as before. Same for osrs

[@codyzipper]

"New players aren't playing through our memories" is genuinely the most painful sentence I've hard to digest in a long time. Having spent years playing games that eventually turned into cashgrabs, it hurts realising nostalgia is the only reason you still remember a game

[@cattkin6732]

Same. I yearn the good days of Shaiya and I just can't recommend it to my friends...

[@nocsu4850]

Yeah, that one hit me too.

[@shobo9596]

That's me with the old halo reach cosmetic system

[@johnsnow9307]

@@shobo9596 That is just Halo bro. That was the best sandbox multiplayer experience ever created. 343i and Microsoft butchered it into obscurity. Pretty neat feat considering it was once at the pinnacle of gaming.

[@backlogbuddies]

That was why I quit secret world legends. I loved the original but nope to legends

[@skyvolt2566]

Seeing one of your favorite games just get turned into a cashgrab is one of the things that honestly hurt more than almost anything. And that "New players aren't playing through our memories" was just such a hard hitting line like that TKO'd my soul

[@LunatheDergbold]

Experiencing the same thing with yugioh rn

[@dieptrieu6564]

@@LunatheDergbold Sine when did yugioh ever not a cashgrab?

[@ieuanphillips8834]

No it's not lol, i started playing from day one on Xbox and stopped playing in 2018 due to work, came back in November to find my character was completely messed up, I spent alot of money in that game, all for nothing, everything that made it good has gone you can't even earn AD by yourself you basically have to buy it​@@hellsdecendents7162

[@bert949]

Cries in Overwatch tears.

[@DonJohn87_YT]

Lol your life must be quite easy which is a good thing 😅

[@BamadeusTTV]

In my experience, every case of "it's good if you have friend to play with" actually translates to english as "It's not good, but I like hanging out with my friends.". I once broke a rib whilst drunkenly falling down a hill with friends. I look back and laugh because it was a fun evening populated with people I liked and filled with banter about said hill. That doesn't mean falling down a hill was fun, it just means I had good friends!

[@tranngockha6562]

I never thought of that....... Thank you

[@Lynxoln]

Thats a good way to think about it.

[@trenkys9327]

That is why most games nowdays are online. You friends make everything fun bcs you have fun with your friends not playing the game. Like Ghost Recon:Wildlands, I tought it's one of the best games in recent memory, we played it i group of 3. Then I booted it up solo...it sucks as hell

[@Webi]

I mean there are also games that are simply not fun even with friends So I still think it is something worth saying.

[@bloodred255]

I mean that goes for all games, the community is important. Not a statement I'd consider profound or worth mentioning.

[@Leahi84]

That was just sad. Josh sounded like he was legitimately hurting over breaking all this down and remembering what was.

[@NuclearSavety]

He re-defined the saying an-axe-to-grind ....

[@ArturoGarcia-zx3ov]

Is funy and sad at the same time realising it may be his first video where he didn´t show himself in his room to explain something with a cup

[@fartloudYT]

if we play a certain game long enough we all have some key game that is like that. watching it become abomination due to dev greed is a serious trip.

[@adoidont]

Because it was once the perfect MMORPG but now but now the game is a paywall at 36k IL. That and the new lvl 20 bs adventure.

[@shadowsage2636]

I know his feeling, having to tear down something you once loved because it went in a shit direction. i am currently feeling that way with a certain game i refuse to name now, it was great, now it's going to shit.

[@Tramelle]

The emotion in Josh's voice as he talks about the game that was such a big part of his life is so real and moving. Truly an inspired review.

[@Mogojoegotube]

Hello Josh, I saw this video the day it came out, and put in a comment over a year ago saying that I agree with you but was hopelessly addicted to the game. I'd like to say thank you for publicizing the issues this game has with its economy and pay to win style. You opened my eyes to have the strength to stop playing and I can comfortably and happily say that I haven't played this game properly in over a year. I recently tried to install it and play it but simply didn't enjoy it and after only 10 minutes uninstalled the game again. This tells me and shows me that I'm properly done. I love never winter and it gave me some excellent memories with my friends, but I'm also happy that I dropped it and won't be returning. Once again thank you Josh, keep doing what you're doing.

[@LoudRevised]

This MMO review is like Josh revealing his origin story and his modus operandi.

[@guillermopena8412]

Game: Ok, how do I make sure I don't screw up? Josh: Easy. Here is a list of mistakes you shouldn't make. Game: But, this is a napkin that just say "Don't make the same mistakes Neverwinter did". Josh: Rule #1 is the most important one.

[@cattrucker8257]

JSH: Origins, a non-live-service prequel

[@visualsound2489]

@@guillermopena8412 Give this to Square Enix, If FF 14 goes down this road i'll be Completely disappointed

[@heyfell4301]

Bro, i wasn't expecting to be depressed for a game i never even played. That's gotta be one of the saddest videos i've seen in a long time, you can almost hear the narrator's heart slowly breaking as he goes deeper and deeper into the problems of a product that used to be his passion.

[@mattsmith5421]

All old players felt this way this game was like crack for a lot of people. It was a terrible day when they announced combat changes to shite and dumbed down perks with group synergy removed

[@agentmaryland1239]

Imagine how sad you'd feel if you'd have gotten attached to this game and then watched it rot from the very core outward.

[@CyberGenesis1]

I've picked up and put down Neverwinter 3-4 times over 8 years. Every time i went back, entire systems of the game were massively reworked. This update to leveling only off quests? jesus... Oh no...i just got to the part where the Race is in a lockbox... I might cry

[@siegfriedlim5865]

@@CyberGenesis1 Damn. I remember playing it when it was in open beta probably. Circa 2014. You could actually grind Zen out by selling Astral Diamonds. I remember grinding and saving up until I had enough to buy some keys for the lockboxes. The Phoera I got from the lockbox would go on to be the thing I cherish most in the game, even though I haven't played it in years. There was a time where Control Wizard was so overpowered, we could be the DPS, CC, healing, and to an extent, tank. Five Control Wizards in a team? Hell yeah, let's go wreck some shit. The Christmas event was swell too, but then the nerfs came, and AD to Zen exchange disappeared for some reason. I quit (the level cap was still 60 back then), and when I came back, it was so different I couldn't even play anymore. Quit again only to come back for a third time, and by then, things have gotten so convoluted, I decided to never pick it up again. That was when campaigns were taking off, and the max level was 70. A shame. This game was the shit. It was my default game when I could not afford a good laptop or PC at all. It was the game I played after ditching Drakensang Online (which used to be good for me as well). It was something to take off my mind of the big exam I was going to have back in 2014. Greed and scummy monetization got the better of it. Well, at least I still have Path of Exile

[@cykeok3525]

Same, I've never even played this, yet the tale of a great game's descent into garbage just made me sad!

[@diego6237]

This video expresses exactly why, and how I feel, every time I wish I was back in my teenage room playing neverwinter nights multiplayer servers, or more strongly so dungeons and dragons online.. I wish I had friends that enjoyed those games as I did, or moreover that we were still friends for I had a guild back in the day and so many friends I knew more than I know my friends nowadays, I would still enjoy those games I'm sure, but those wonderful places are now empty deserts full of ghosts and shadows. I still try to go back from time to time, and right after it becomes evident how broken it is, I try to find another game I can play with friends, but it seems everything sucks... What a terrible crime it is, to give life to a dream just to let it wither away.

[@saltee8460]

The community is still strong on Neverwinter nights. Arelith and ravenloft being the most popular.

[@diego6237]

@@saltee8460 oooh I will go try it

[@Es3iya]

neverwinter night multiplayer was my first online gaming experience :) loved all those servers full off different worlds built by amateurs and other players.

[@diego6237]

@@Es3iya I know right! It was the first time I got banned too, for roleplaying a pacifist monk called Jesus of Nazareth

[@Ancientsecrets0304]

@@diego6237 i recommend world of greyhawk, active and helpful community there. some have played for 3+ years and still play

[@anickchose8114]

I remember genuinely enjoying Neverwinter back in 2017-ish. I don't usually like MMOs and prefer single-player games, but you could get to level 70 on your own with some luck and hard work. I stopped soon after reaching level 70 because it quickly became unplayable without a team, but I left without regrets and without having spent a dime. Seeing what it became afterwards is really saddening. I feel you Josh.

[@Talsbynians]

The further the video goes, the sadder Josh’s voice gets. It’s like the earlier points in the game are closest to his fondness for the game, but as it goes on, it goes further and further away from that

[@gaigeiris9632]

the pain in his voice when he gives the final score really got me

[@BM03]

His voice starts stern, disappointed, maybe even angry. By the end, it's just so... defeated.

[@nezkeys79]

I get like this when talking about skyforge and Final Fantasy 11

[@BM03]

@@nezkeys79 Hey now, FF11 is still ongoing and in a pretty damn fine place.

[@nezkeys79]

@@BM03sorry but its a shadow of its former self. It may not be the pay to win trash like josh is talking about but the magic has gone. Asura is overun with bots, most linkshells are dead. The content has been progressively changed to be more like 14. I'm not saying 14 is good cause it is but it spawns the "it's just a worse 14" comments. Both 11 and 14 imo are still the best two mmos that exist imo.

[@MrPuglover55]

This man definitely deserves all the praise he gets. He took an mmo that he loved, one of his all time favorites and was able to show that it isn’t perfect and has flaws like every game he’s done before. 3 cheers for this absolute beast of a man

[@Trizzle2Jernts]

I find myself turning into a British person, nodding and gesturing in agreement to his valid points, when I'm watching the videos. The videos are fantastic and I'm starting to turn into one right now, reading through andwriting this comment. Only 3 cheers? Let's give Mr. Dryface all the cheers.

[@theflumpsydumpster7228]

Mr. Hayes here is the beastliest of beastly men. We stan

[@MrPuglover55]

#StanStrifeHays

[@tree4318]

we know he's cool calm down lol

[@MrPuglover55]

Never

[@killingit2091]

I used to play NW for years. I was a DC end game character and loved playing as a cleric. The ability to help hold a team together when buffing was brilliant. Unfortunately a few years ago they changed the cleric to a healer fighter. I was upset about losing my buffs, but tried to see the bright side about actually having a battle cleric loadout... Unfortunately this was short lived as the battle cleric seemed to put out less dps than my buff cleric solo loadout. Instead of healing, buffing and fighting, It limited me to pick either healing or fighting depending on the loadout. I didn't pay to play either. If you saved up your store currency which you could get a set amount each day and you wait until july 4th or black friday, you could get the 6 month membership for free. I had completed all the maps including castle ravenloft and would run dungoens for hours. I still miss playing, but it's just not what it was.

[@bluemyst42]

After seeing all of the monetization, I just picture a board of directors sitting in a room and cackling maniacally as they add more cash shop traps. I get having a cash shop, but making it so the currency costs just over the bundle price, forcing you to by more, just annoys me to no end. And there are real life people somewhere making this happen, purposely.

[@queercandy1]

almost every one of these cash shops is just psychological manipulation in a UI

[@Gohka]

Unfortunately it has become pretty much standard practice for any game that has a currency you exchange real money for. They always make things cost just slightly more than a certain pack, so you're sat there thinking; "I either spend £24.99 for 2400 coins + £9.99 for an extra 100 coins to buy something that costs 2500 or spend £29.99 for 2600 coins so it's cheaper than buying the 2400+100 and you have 100 coins left over, but the cheapest things cost 125 coins so now you have to spend at least another £9.99 for to get up to 200 coins, but then you have 75 coins left over, etc, etc."

[@QT-JME]

I can really hear the anguish in Josh's voice over this. It's a feeling I've had before with games that I loved ruined by predatory pay-to-win mechanics, until I couldn't take it anymore and left. But Josh spent most of his *career* on Neverwinter, it's beyond that I could have possibly felt at that point.

[@kyotheman69]

same pain I have with WoW, it truly sucks when game you really becomes a pile of shit

[@synicull127]

I haven't played the game in years - but damn - when he got to the foundry part I was so grumpy. It was so innovative and so DND. The game felt like NWN fairly simplified gone action MMO. I really wanted to like it, but didn't for unrelated reasons. It's a shame it crashed and burned, but I totally can 20/20 see the writing on the wall.

[@manapotu6623]

its actually not p2w to my opinion but you just gotta play it like a 7/24 job,just joking you dont have to play it everyday to keep your character in a good shape and fitting to meta but you just cant leave the game and come back,its like getting out of cold water,then trying to get inside again the water is cold again but this time its not getting warmer,your character is trash rn due to new items from bosses or dungeons,and you gotta grind the shit out of new stuff just to get your character in a normal shape bcz you left the game for a while

[@IdiosyncraticDegenerate]

Neverwinter should be one of the best MMOs out there, if it wasn't for the extremely predatory and scummy systems that hinders every step you take so you'll feel the urge to pay real money.

[@flamerollerx01]

Hey come on now, their shareholders need that 5th mansion! Don't be so damn cheap! /s

[@dale7326]

Newspaper media: Did you say I get a pay in it? Because if not, you’re on the news! Political agenda: Ah yes, the exploit, time for someone to play catch. We have identified for someone who can carry our messages! Byee Authorities: Well, that unfortunate, no housing for you. Good luck and comeback when you make more money to interest me…

[@aguy3953]

@@flamerollerx01 well your pfp and name checks out ....

[@flamerollerx01]

@@aguy3953 It's called sarcasm.

[@aguy3953]

@@flamerollerx01 it's also called leaving burns .

[@KrypticStudiosCorp]

Most MMO's start out as heroes, but they usually live long enough just to become villains.

[@CaptainRed1000]

God, I remember getting into this game right around the time the whole "predatory monetization" thing was starting to pick up. It was so much fun until you reached the endgame. It's actually shocking to see how much worse it's gotten since.

[@TheLawliet10]

That honestly sounded like it hurt at the end. Thank you for making this Josh, and I'm sorry that greed destroyed a game you loved.

[@Gauron.]

I checked up how much might have changed in this game since Josh's video and the steam charts say that since the release of this video they around 1000 more players. If anything would been improved here it would show but no

[@katze2176]

happened to all of us

[@Audioworm]

Even the rating at the end sounded more despondent than snarky. It's never easy, looking upon something you once loved and knowing it barely resembles what it once was.

[@DennisGarage]

Awfully similar to what happened with Blizzard, Warcraft and WoW... :/

[@ultgamercw6759]

Kind of like tf2 after valve stopped caring and the bots took over. That's the one that really hurts for me. I love that game but it's ruined by hackers.

[@chestermc9954]

@@ultgamercw6759 I know this comment is a month old but the game is still perfectly playable in community servers. There are many community servers that have custom anti-cheats and active moderators that keep the servers free of bots and cheaters.

[@dbolgangster1111]

Hey Josh, I remember when I started playing Neverwinter watched a couple of your videos, it really helped me with my gameplay, one day I got into you twitch stream, there was like 10 people watching you playing one of the dungeons, I thanked you for helping me and left. Well, Neverwinter almost cost me my college degree, I got into it and didn't want to do anything else, didn't leave my room, didn't studied, didn't go to any parties, the game was amazing, but something didn't ring me right... I played a lot, every single day. but I didn't achieve anything, everytime an update came I looked at what I had and it was like it meant nothing the hours I spent grinding. I got my friend into it, I didn't had any money to spend on online games, but he had, in about 1 month he surpassed me, new mounts, new artifacts, new companions, I had to grind a week to convert enough AD to get anything at least usable, he was already maxed out. The game literally broke me, finished college, got a gf, but everytime I played a RPG it remembered me of Neverwinter, it was a hell of a good time, it even taught me English (main language BR portuguese), but it also taught me that I can't love a game too much, anyways... Thanks Josh for getting me into this amazing game!

[@keterpatrol7527]

I used to play Neverwinter with my family. We had a small guild and we used to try to fight dragons. We always failed to kill one or two, but it didn't matter. It still holds a special place in my heart, long after we stopped playing.

[@legion7]

As a former BIS endgame player what keeps me from this game is it's astral diamond hard cap. Making money in this game is one of the most terrible and difficult experiences I've had in any MMO. However, what made me quit the game is when they put my hard earned BIS artifact in the Zen store for real life money...I can't tell you how devastated I was and how cheated I felt that anyone could swipe their card and get the best artifact in the game that I worked so hard for. I quit that day.

[@user-cr8vy2hs7o]

I played RS from 2004 to 2012 and probably put 20,000 hours in, got 99s in all skills, then they just sold all the skills and exp for money. Was so infuriating.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

I quit when they changed the AD system the first time. I came back a few times. The lastest change to remove early game content that helped with game flow and learning your character (good for new players) and the AD to Zen issue that also exists on Xbox and I imagine every platform meaning that ftp Zen no longer exists (Not surprised, fuck cryptic), I realized that my first real MMO that I have olayed, will never be played by me again. And it sucks saying that. I don't mind working for things as a ftp cause it feels so much better earning it than paying for it (I work like this in Gacha games that I now play over mmos). But when there is no ftp way to get max gear and I HAVE to pay to get max enchants, and best in slot... I quit for good. In Gacha games, I don't spend on anything but monthly cards, refreshes, and most importantly, skins. Skins and subs were my main purchases in mmos so nothing has changed. I don't pay to get everything. And if I had to... I would just break my phone instead. Cryptic, fuck you

[@ragnarok7976]

Yep, negates all that work. Everybody who sees you have it is just gonna assume you bought it. Worst part is the more work it is to earn the more likely people are to assume you caved and bought it. In game purchases are always going to be a paradox.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

You could have seen that coming considering what they did with the epic dungeon keys.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

@@ragnarok7976 that just sounds like you're insecure about it. Don't hate the player, hate the game. The real game which is capitalism = infinite growth.

[@klop552]

The bit about 'it's better if I forget' is heartbreaking. That's how I feel about WoW. The hope and promise of a return to a better time in a game is so damaging to so many people.

[@jdvorakczech]

It's not only wow and the mmo world, so many games comming out now are predatory, abusive and disappointing, it's unbelievable.

[@Naptosis]

You're both so right. WoW *was* my vice, but it seems like every 'AAA' game now is just a slot machine. You can tell people not to preorder or buy *macro* transactions, but people will anyway. Because of that we have the current system of bleeding players dry for dog shit content.

[@wythore]

​@@jdvorakczech This! And who's to blame for this? Us, the nostalgia seeking copium consumers, that just want to replay the games that made our childhood memorable, or the literal cancer that are whales that buy every single piece of human turd that has the word "pre-order" in it? Why would game companies cater to us when catering to the whales earn them more money?

[@mayn90s19]

Same. I was 11 years old when I got the Warlord title in Vanilla WoW. My dad and I switched shifts and barely missed High Warlord. 🙃 was 12 when I tanked my first 20 man raid, Zul Gurub, in a guild run as well! Fusion! Miss the old world of warcraft. But I think it's nostalgia. Because I love Neverwinter, but I never played it way back when. I just enjoy it. I know I won't ever be end game, 60k ilvl, etc but that's fine. I can play the content nonetheless.

[@fawnieee]

@@wythore more like late stage capitalism and excessively greedy corporations but okay

[@Khariismatic]

This definitely hurt me too. I absolutely loved Neverwinter because of my obsession of DND at a younger age. Before ESO, this was all I played. It hurts that this game will never live again, but it's comforting that one of my favorite KZbinrs can also relate to the wonderful memories this fossil created for its players.

[@Your-Least-Favorite-Stranger]

It's funny because the endgame inaccessibility is what put the final nail in the coffin for me. I knew the game was hella monetized (I used auction house to get around some of this), I knew community was shoddy at best (joined a big guild and loved it, up until I realized I was the only one ever contributing to the guildhouse's coffers and nobody was ever online when I was. They gave me some cool mounts though so cant complain), I knew the shift to 5E royally messed up my character design and invalidated my entire journey from level 1 to level 70 (every stat and boon was indicative of my character's growth in the world; there was RP alongside the mechanics, and just suddenly wiping the slate clean telling me to reallocate my stats felt like a slap to the face), but realizing how unbalanced the endgame content was if you weren't a pay to player basically cemented my departure. I was so excited to go to Chult, but after arriving I got killed by beach crabs. I tried again, I got like 1 hit in, then got absolutely murdered by beach crabs - I had really high gear that gave me stat buffs and did a lot of damage, but the very entry level creatures were beyond the scope of a level 70 player who didnt pay to play. In the background was a veteran player with purchased gear and companions - crabs and dinos attacking him, he hardly took damage as he just ran to the next area; he just straight up murdered the things. The massive gap in gameplay you get from buying your stuff vs grinding it was insane - I tried a few times to come back with a couple other new level 70s, same deal though - we got a couple hits in then got basically one-shot killed by these beach crabs. At first I was thinking "if I grind really hard I can get the high level gear, at least enough to progress" - then I realized the massive effort needed to get just one piece of high end gear through astral diamonds, and even then its reliant on availability in the auction house. I basically stopped caring at that point; the world is fun and beautiful all the way up to level 70, at that point I just accepted I'd beat the game and moved on. Never did finish the main storyline.

[@x50413]

I never expected to feel anything from an MMO review. But the way you delivered "This review score will cost you 3,500 Zen... out of 10." Just... that was painful to hear. Josh, this review is phenomenal. I have no doubts that it was hard to make, but you did an incredible job with it. I never played Neverwinter, and now I'm a bit sad that I didn't... back then. Not now.

[@Dom-pj9ft]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@wakaitsu]

I never played Neverwinter, but yeesh, this episode got PAINFUL. I know the feeling of a game starting amassing, and then slooooooowly degrade into pay-2-win, I outlived 5 games like this before I was done playing MMO altogether precisely because of this trend. I feel your pain, brother-in-games. We're all in this together.

[@ngageman1988]

You could share what games they were?

[@drakosflame]

I really enjoy your Worst MMO Ever series. A lot of what you have to say is insightful -- it's so much more than just someone complaining about a game. Your sarcasm is on point and I often find myself actually giggling at my desk at the sillier moments. But this, this was a gem of KZbin autoplay. I felt real feelings at the way you said goodbye at the end, because as a gamer who has spent thousands of hours in MMOs, it hit a nerve. My first MMO was Ultima Online and sometimes I still have dreams about it -- I made a TON of gold designing homes and decorating them for other people. I camped rare item spawns, participated in the really cool GM shard events, held events of my own, and was consistently featured on UO Stratics. I know they still inexplicably have a die-hard player base, but I could never go back. The door has to stay firmly shut so I can keep my memories in that "good old days" haze and not have a, "How has it come to this," LotR moment like you just did.

[@thenson1Halo]

This game broke my heart. Every time I scroll past it in my games list it breaks it all over again. It was so fun to me. To some the combat might be meh or serviceable, but I actually liked it. This was my favorite D&D video game and I was even a DDO: Stormreach founder (when it was a paid and not ftp game). Nothing else quite scratches my D&D itch now, but Neverwinter did. Initially the insane grind for endgame forced me out because I don't have the RL time for all of that. Then the P2W was slammed down on top of it and I refuse to be anyone's whale. Now, from what i've been told, a final nail was driven into Neverwinter's coffin. They removed content, squished the level cap, and in doing so broke the fun gameplay. Now there is nothing left of Neverwinter. The city may as well have fallen...

[@TxSakura]

Genuinely it's heartbreaking seeing and hearing someone feeling betrayed by a game they loved. Seeing it crash and burn knowing that the devs don't give a dam about the players. I played neverwinter a lot a few years back and enjoyed it a lot, I never thought it would get this bad. Keep up the great content and I hope the next mmo you fall in love with doesn't end up breaking you down

[@SuperLeonBlade]

Publisher* not developers.

[@lyuris277]

@Rose's Zen Garden watching this video got me thinking like "maybe this could happen to WoW too..." and if blizzard doesnt change drastically, it will probably happen.

[@Zazu1337]

Lol ask me about, Hellgate London, Warcraft reforged, World of Warcraft, Battleforge, Command and Conquer, Dungeon Keeper...

[@tacky4237]

i know how it feels, i used to enjoy league of legends.

[@namelessliberty9869]

"I don't regret playing it, not for a second" God that's exactly how I feel about Tree of Savior. Spent hundreds of hours on it, amazing combat feel, my favorite visuals on an MMO ever, but the absolutely ruthless paywall in the endgame stops me from recommending the game to anyone and it stopped me from playing anymore. But I had an amazing time leveling my first character.

[@gerbo8018]

Isn't this fast becoming the path of every mmo. Its really painfull but when i think back of the old mmo's i played. I played neverwinter in the beginning, the old classic wow and so on. Look at all these games now ... its not even a shadow of what they used to be.

[@TheDarksaphira]

I've recently started watching the Worst MMO Ever videos and this one really, really hit hard. The emotion in all of this. I bet it was great, back in the day. It's sad to see something like this happen.

[@ericlamb4501]

The thing you have to realize too with this series isn't that this is a unique occurrence. Pretty much every old MMO-turned-cashgrab Josh has covered thus far and will has people who have good memories from a time long passed, just read through the comments here and reviews on Steam. This one was just his turn to get a dagger through the heart, and, as much as that sucks, he really handled it well.

[@darthbaker1114]

I never played this game. Even so, this one hit hard with how relatable what Josh is going through is. I'm there with you Josh. The feeling of seeing your favorite game fall into ruin. Not being able to recommend something you used to hold so dear, and probably still do. Wishing to see the glory days just one more time. Maybe I'm projecting, but hearing the pain in his voice, especially at the end, broke my heart. I wish I could have played this game in its glory days.

[@Tiggoelicous]

my partner and i got to know each other through neverwinter. we both started new characters and played to max level (70 at the time). i remember my partner deciding to buy a 1 month VIP pack and even though we continued to only play together, they ended up waaay ahead of me. it was really disheartening. while i was struggling to keep up, they were plowing through enemies with little to no effort. we dropped it at some point and after we moved in together, we decided to give it another go to check out the changes and for the nostalgia. we barely made it to level 5. it was awful. everything that made the game fun was stripped. we both uninstalled and haven't looked back. RIP in peace private wilfred. i still miss you. i still have a screenshot of his memorial of where he died to valindra. best NPC.

[@sgtjonmcc]

I am former WoW player with a similar story, met my partner in WoW played together for years then we both just dropped the game as character balance went out the window and the social aspect of the game died. I tried Neverwinter for a few days after I leveled my first character to max I quit as it just didn't feel like anything mattered in the game if you didn't pay for it my inventory was practically full of items I could do nothing with because the keys or the prerequisites were only available in the shop or could only be picked up from a really long and protracted quest line that could only be started if I had enough of some thing.

[@MegaBennor]

Hey. So cool to see you found your partner through the game like me and my Partner did through the same game :) We are still together and had someone draw our characters with our faces in them to remember where we started :) Me the dwarf tank and she the elf healer. I hope you 2 are as happy together as we 2 are.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

Neverwinter was killed by greed. What makes it worse is that it hides it. Gacha games I know are greedy so it's like I'm accepting it. But cryptic did a lot of us dirty. Glad you two met through it at least. That's one good thing. P.s: Is that why I liked vip so much

[@EyeTry203]

why do people call their wife/husband "partner" instead of .. wife/husband? It sounds so cold and soulless.

[@rudolph2937]

@@EyeTry203 It bothers me too. It's kinda like calling women "females". Technically correct, but it just sounds wrong

[@mommiejules6771]

I met my husband on this game 6 years ago. We both quit about a year after we met and now after watching the video I feel so sad that it’s completely different. I have such fond memories of what this game was.

[@RAC00NFANGIRL]

Man I’m soo sorry had go through that! *virtual hug*

[@Pootispenserherehoovy]

@@RAC00NFANGIRL Sir, you are virtual hugging someone's wife what the hell

[@gregdicostanzo6423]

@@Pootispenserherehoovy Sounds like you need a hug as well...

[@schnek8927]

@@gregdicostanzo6423 No, he's very much got a point. That's several layers of weird.

[@ayoubbenyamina1194]

​@@schnek8927 agreed, yikes.

[@thesilvercircle4582]

This was the game that introduced me to the drow and tiefling (things I’d never heard of before and now totally love in every setting and iteration). I could never truly understand the game as I didn’t have the patience or understanding to figure it out, but I always wondered (and still think) about it every now and again.

[@MrWilhelm76]

I am gaming for 36 years now. Flightsim to MMORPG. Air refueling to COD MW2. Neverwinters raids to Valindra, the spider queen, fire dragon and all other cool bosses gave me wonderful experiences. Met so many great ppl. Amazing memories up to today. They introduced the dragon race, and i left the game. My top dps glass cannon GWF was nerved too much . When i see you running around solo in those epic dungeons that i remember sooo well, my heart is bleeding ! Age of Conan and Neverwinter thank you for the countless hours of joy !

[@LittleDemonInside]

This... hurt to watch, emotionally. You can hear how defeated Josh is and goddamn. I just bing-watched all of his Worst MMO series in one go, and this is the most recently uploaded and... oof. Here's to the next review not being so hard to go through, Josh. See you next time.

[@xintrosi6829]

I want him to rip apart my favorite mmos so I can share his pain.

[@TheFirekings]

@@xintrosi6829 yo? 📸🤨

[@mystixa]

Yea I agree. I've heard that in other creators like Northside and even members of my guild / alliance. Just a sad state.

[@notscott3592]

“this game could be so much better, if they weren’t so greedy” i feel like i say that exact line for literally almost every game that has come out for the past 7 years. all triple A game companies are the embodiment of greediness these days

[@rohenthar8449]

Yeah, they are, because we players allows them to be like that.

[@mplovecraft]

While I don't side with the game company - at all, it might be the only thing keeping it alive. A pirate server might be the only solution. It means no more content, and in the end someone has to pay for that too. I came here because I was thinking about trying the game, but I will pass.

[@wickid3616]

blame the l33ts. they are selfish. in thier own worlds and will screw each other as well.

[@mystixa]

It was ok.. but no they've gotten worse where now their greed comes directly at the expense of gameplay. ..and if your style of play hadn't been affected at any point in time, all you had to do was wait because they have a campaign of seeking out things people are enjoying and breaking them while not introducing content that was asked for by the community. Other games like Warframe and ESO (eso isnt f2p but has a similar structure) dont do this to the same extent. As a result they have exponentially grown while the NW playerbase has linearly shrunk.

[@TheSkycania]

Idk if 7 years is accurate. More like the last 4 years it’s become very prominent in most game generes.

[@aavilab]

I just found your channel and wanted to say thank you. So much interesting content and commentary, and so many MMOs I've sunk hours into being shred to pieces, it's awesome!!

[@TheWanderingVali]

I used to love this game. I was one of the most powerful Devout Clerics, when they were still called that, when the Cleric was all about more than doubling your entire teams power. I have such fond memories of going on hunts with friends I made in game in the Ravenloft expansion and that stupid boss in Castle Ravenloft that was bugged for months after releasing. Oh! The Fang Breaker Island Dungeon. Good times 😊

[@SpunkMcKullins]

Man, I remember trying Neverwinter after launch and thinking it was awesome. One of the few non-WoW MMO's to really capture me. I spent hours on the dungeon maker every day, making my own campaigns.

[@ShiningDarknes]

The dungeon maker actually almost made 4e (the system it was originally based on) not the worst edition of dnd... almost.

[@CoolNumber1]

Issue nothing to do end game.

[@JayJayisOK]

Does the dungeon maker still exist in the current version of the game?

[@SpunkMcKullins]

@@JayJayisOK Nope. They literally just forgot how to use it. All the previous devs had left and nobody was able to figure it out so they had to remove it.

[@SmokedTomahawkSteak]

@@SpunkMcKullins they did the same thing in STO player created missions.

[@SmokeyEdits]

Just found your channel and as someone who has played MMOs her entire life, I related a lot to the content and binged most of it. Gotta say, this is the most sombre episode of this series yet. The worst part is that I've been going through this same feeling with MapleStory lately. I'm a 15 year veteran of the game, and I dropped it entirely a couple months back because the company that owns it is horrible and the game experience is so far from what it was that it's become physically painful for me to play it now.

[@richardpreston7333]

As somebody who played a bit of MapleStory back in the day, this hurt to read.

[@SmokeyEdits]

@@richardpreston7333 Trust me, it's a right shithole of a game now. Not only is it nothing like it used to be (which can be fine, don't get me wrong) the community is so fragmented and drama-oriented it's not even funny. Nexon is just outwardly trans/homophobic; I'm a Jr Lead in a primarily LGBT+ guild and there's a number of the IGNs in the guild that got forcibly changed by Nexon because they had "Homo" in them. I shit you not. I had a friend in that game with the IGN HomoHoyoung, Hoyoung literally just being a class in the game, and their name got changed. I spent thousands, tens of thousands of dollars on that game. I'm not proud of it, but I definitely didn't regret it. I do now. I loved that game with every fiber of my being and Nexon has burnt it to the ground entirely. I'm sure you've heard about the mass exoduses (exodi?) of players in the past few years on both KMS and GMS. Don't even get me started on the fucking vac pets. If JSH needs someone angry to scream in his MapleStory video, I might just be the chick to do it. Fuck Nexon.

[@SmokeyEdits]

@DaKermitFrog I don't know what that is, but as far as I know MS was always just an independent launcher.

[@ForumArcade]

Oh god, I played MapleStory in the early early days and loved it. I tried to come back after Big Bang and it was just... Everything I loved about it was gone. Changed. Worse. There was a comment I read on a different video that really hit me emotionally. I'll paraphrase, but it went something like this: "I remember being a new player and riding the ship to Orbis. Sometimes, you'd be attacked by Balrogs. At first I tried to fight them, but they'd kill me in one hit. So I learned to hide, while the stronger players went outside and fought them. I yearned one day to be out there fighting with the others; to be strong like them. Now, I am strong. But they are all gone."

[@Demortixx]

Oh man I spent so much time on maple story 20 years ago

[@timg9212]

Josh sure sounds like a man who found the woman of his dreams, then had to break up with her after many happy years, due to the actual reality finally reaching him that she wasn't so perfect for him after all, and that there were compatibility issues that he couldn't get past, so he finally left. It's a sad story, one as old as time, retold from the perspective of MMO game play. Kudos

[@Capitan_Kruger]

I started playing when I was in middleschool and remember everything you talked about in this video from the good old days. I've been away for college a few years now and just today logged back in and it looks so different now. Your video was an unexpected emotional ride and I wanted to let you know I deeply empathize and appreciate it.

[@jeroenstolp9889]

Ever since his passing, I have had a TotalBiscuit-shaped hole in my heart. I never expected anyone to fill that hole. Josh, I feel that I can give you no greater compliment than to say that I was wrong.

[@GodOfPlague]

I miss that guy too. Still watch his terraria lets play with Jesse from time to time

[@StarContract]

Honestly he was the best of the best. Shaped the gaming discussion videos genre on KZbin with his WTF Is series.

[@andoli1646]

It will be a dark day when the last of the old guard are bo longer here

[@TirelessGaming]

TB 😭 RIP sweet prince.

[@asiamatron]

Yeah I miss him too.

[@patchesm]

I promised myself I wouldn't cry, but he sounds so devastated. "But there are only two that matter: Zen and Astral Diamonds" Ah shit, this again

[@kingprone7846]

lootboxes and cashshop ruined gaming

[@IamaPERSON]

@@kingprone7846 unfortunately

[@a.nonimus6705]

Wow, this one hit home for me. I started playing this game in open beta. Some of the pay to win mechanics existed back then, but I still loved it because of the amazing combat mechanics and the legendary PvP (despite the fact that there were only 2 PvP maps and both were domination, it was still the best PvP I've ever played in an MMORPG, even to this day). However, during the beta the cash shop was very limited, so the extent of the pay to win nature was not really anything too extreme, and it wasn't too difficult to become as powerful as the pay to win players simply by grinding because there were no cash shop races, and the AD costs of things weren't very high yet. But then, when the game released out of beta, the pay to win aspects became more profound and even more noticeable. I tried to look past them, but it started to get difficult to do so. My friends and I ended up quitting the game completely about a week after Sharandar was released simply because the game was so explicitly pay to win that we couldn't even enjoy it anymore at that point. Now we look back on it fondly, while also laughing and joking that Neverwinter was the only game in the world to have been a better game in beta than it was after release. I agree with your rating, 3,500 zen / 10 sounds right for this... wonderful work of art that could've been so much more if it wasn't completely corrupted by insatiable greed on inception. It will not turn itself around, unfortunately. Cryptic as a studio has a track record for this kind of garbage.

[@brjoey]

Man, this makes me sad. I never played Neverwinter, but now I wish I had back in the day. This reminds me of how I feel about WoW; you used to love it but it's become an unrecognizable shell of what it once was. As much as you want to go back to it, you know that what you would go back to, the game as it exists now, is a completely different game. The one you loved no longer exists.

[@keepinitcool4254]

I remember playing neverwinter throughout the same time period. My goal was to build an extremely tanky and self sufficient oathbound paladin because I wanted to be able to solo endgame content and dungeons. It's really satisfying to cast abilities that synergize together and feel so powerful being able to face tank millions of damage. I specifically remember that fight with orcus at the start of the video, there's these roaming balls of DPS that will melt anything and they all converge at a certain spot. I literally stood in that spot and face tanked millions of damage and I felt like my build was exactly what I wanted. But I still had a long way to go before reaching the limits. What really made me quit, which must have been around 4 years ago was when they nerfed my character to the point where my goals were no longer possible and my character felt like it had it's power just ripped away and could no longer do anything well, much less do anything special.

[@samusx2175]

I feel your pain. I played an Oathbound as well, but I played it for only a handful of months over a year ago. It was already P2W when I joined, and after I got to max level it just became daily grind quests and boring.

[@rohenthar8449]

I played far before you, and this what happened to paladin, already happened to others classes too. I played as Control Wizard, a glass cannon focused almost only on PvE, but... they nerfed it, mainly because TR community complains, and new class introduction... warlock. Cryptic is famous for forcing players to create new characters again, and again in their second game, Star Trek Online too.

[@MegaVirus700]

Should have played as an oath of the credit card paladin.

[@StUCaboose]

They literally made an anime a out you

[@agentmaryland1239]

@@rohenthar8449 I remember when they nerfed the Healadin build because of outcry that the Devoted Cleric was being left in the dust. I felt the better way to deal with this was to just buff the Cleric who honestly was pretty lackluster to begin with. The answer to a power imbalance isn't to nerf something inherently made powerful just because their ancestor was designed to be weak in all but very few realities. The Cleric was only really good on Haste builds for the most part because their healing just didn't exist. Even when you went for a strong healing build DC, your heals could not keep up unless you had the strongest gear in the game that buffed the attributes that worked with healing spells. Take for example my friend built a Devoted Healer with one or two armor buff abilities (note: he did not have the best gear in the game, but decent enough as he'd done the at the time end game challenges). He could heal for about 3 million per use at the time the OBP was announced. By the time I was done building my Healadin about 4 months later, I was cracking 15-20 million heals per healing rebound on my Chain Heal ability. And I hadn't even started getting the gear I needed for the end game Healadin God Build. I just had some extended campaign stuff that was a bit more powerful than base campaign gear. And the fact I was lucky and got a Stalwart Golden Lion on my first Firemane Lockbox crack with my free Key helped a lot too. As well as having saved up enough Astral Diamonds to convert to Zen to buy the Dragonborn race for that bonus crit stat. Versus his Elf Cleric, he didn't really stand a chance. Because while both his Wood Elf and my Dragonborn had a +1500 to crit, the DB gets a +3% to incoming healing which at the time, boosted outgoing healing +3% to each individual, so counting myself, that was basically a +15% outgoing healing buff. The real issue is that people were comparing the OBP and DC when they actually were very specific to their roles. They were supports, but each one had their use, but because people saw that they could both do buffs and both had the potential to heal, they just lumped them in together (despite the OBP being a duality existence because it can tank or it can heal and with a perfect Healadin build, you can do both).

[@hemangchauhan2864]

I'm not an MMO junky (life long single player gamer), but these videos are extremely fascinating. Thank you for these.

[@kyotheman69]

good you escape the pain

[@pipz420]

FF14 is a Single player game. Others can attest.

[@TalesZuliani]

@@pipz420 I can second that. Played a lot of FFXIV on the free trial solo. Great game

[@shinkamui]

i`ve only played ffxiv more because of ff than mmo. Sure i love it for the social experience now but still. It`s nice to have such an insightful view of what`s out there.

[@slicemup9]

@@felixader Leave them untouched like they left the GTA remake untouched?

[@s.z.9517]

I played Neverwinter for years, completed almost all campaigns (and some of them took months of daily grinding), upgraded my stuff, runes, saved tons of coins to buy the best pets, exactly like you did. And from time to time, I had to leave it for a while. Everytime I came back, my high level badass drow rogue was again an average noob character. When they lowered the max level to 20, it killed my love for the game. I feel your pain brother.

[@enarz1888]

I played World of Tanks for around 10 years. When he said that "New players aren't playing through our memories" it hit me, cuz i remember how good of a game it was. Where i genuinely had fun. Maybe i was bad ye, but was fun. It helped me a lot, but now it's just a shell of its former glory.

[@KyleLeonhart]

what happened to world of tanks? I used to play it years ago

[@enarz1888]

@@KyleLeonhart they implemented too many tanks, overpowered premiums, and just maps where its the first to break true wins. Arty just broken no matter what they did, and changed soo much the armor it became like Roblox design like ya now have voids ya just cant penetrate. All in all became pay to win or even be able to sustain an account. Ya have bots, not enough players and griefing. Ya just can't really enjoy it. And as ya get a new account ya just don't know where to go, it became complex like rocket science tbh.

[@stephenbromby5804]

Ya know what? After watching Josh break down this god-awful "game" that I used to love playing, it makes my heart sing that I abandoned/uninstalled it well over a year ago. Have been tempted to return to it, to see how the state of the game is, but then I watched this video, I came to my senses, cos it translates to... nothing has changed in NW, in fact, it's probably gotten worse. Thanks, Joshstrifehayes, you've helped me save a ton of money and (inadvertantly) spared my sanity at the same time. Sad, though, cos NW used to be so much fun, but now...?

[@eastcoastmostwanted710]

Ashes of creations gon destroy all the mmos

[@RAC00NFANGIRL]

@@eastcoastmostwanted710 maybe one day someone will make mmo dungeon and dragons. I mean movie is coming out maybe inspire those love this series make better MMO

[@AfroDyke]

This game was ❤

[@GebJgBtl-233]

NW is the best mmo for xbox and ps 😅 NW ❤

[@iarmandov2]

“Because returning to the bank is such a poor person thing to do!” That killed me lmao! 😭😂

[@DanielTomilson]

Great video, played this game for a few years the cash shop and all the extra areas needing dozens/hundreds of tokens with only a few quests for each got to me after a while. Tried some cash shop stuff, got a good boost in 2017 until around 2019 and they changed a lot of stuff, sometime around The Cloaked Ascendancy I started getting board, sometime around Infernal Descent I gave up and quit. As a casual I couldn't keep up with the power level creep even after I put some money into the game. The Guilds are what bother me the most, you needed A LOT of people to grind A LOT to equip a small number of top characters with the best items, and those top characters were the only ones who could handle the medium and higher dungeons/raids. These top characters were crazy op compared to me... and a lot of the new monsters were scaled the be a challenge to them... so I get 1-2 hit killed with nearly useless damage after I spent money... so I quit... eventually. Also the developers never lived up to the promise of D&D, they never put all the official 5e classes (9 of 13... except they don't really match what they do in D&D so we will call it half... so 4.5/13 not including common extra classes like Blood Hunter) and half the official 5e species/races in, not even including multiclass characters which are a very big part of the game. When D&D is treated seriously it is very flexible on roles..., ex. a high lvl paladin + warlock + sorcerer can do a lot of tanking and dps + some heals + some support. You should be aiming for an ultimate 20th lvl abilities for staying pure with one class (the ultimate abilities have to be very overpowered to be worth it), or you should get a lot of amazing abilities for multiclassing. Whenever they talk, they talk about new monsters and new areas... but that's only half of what the game needed. Neverwinter MMO started out as a game that was D&D 4e inspired, you couldn't see all the content but you could see an extra 200 hours of content if you used the auction house and $200 on a sale day to skip all the expansions. In 2019 they changed it to be 5e inspired and objectively worse, $200 would mean almost nothing. Action Points, Encounter Powers, Daily Powers... was all 4e stuff and not 5e stuff at all. It bothered me a lot when my serious heavy armor wearing 4e Great Weapon Fighter was reduced to a Barbarian who famously does not wear armor and is usually dumb/angry all the time. Common issues... I wanted the game to have shaper physics, allow flying and ranged attack, allow me to dodge attacks more if I move a a foot or two away or behind cover, ability to travel around without monsters knocking me off my mount all the time (maybe space the mobs slightly farther apart so I can choose to avoid them or maybe they aren't all instantly super hostile) Lastly, I do not like extra-long quests where you need 50 of something but can only get 1-5 a day.

[@jessicawitney1154]

As a player who was actively trying to hit the peak when the majority of the level and combat changes happened, this hurts my soul. The game literally became every DPS trying to farm the same gear. You weren't wanted for a party unless you had the +power chest plate, or you needed Mirage weapons, or this one specific artefact... There was no more fun, no more uniqueness, it was just "become the same as everyone else." It also lead to a lot of people trying to replicate playstyles from YTers who played with dedicated parties or were wallet warriors, and they weren't, so rather than building to suit how they played, they were trying to pull off difficult and often unrealistic builds... Killed all the joy the game used to give.

[@wolfspider1628]

Looking at this game now- it's just so unrecognizable. I remember the day finding out about the "new" update to the Divine Cleric class, and just how much they dumbed down my favorite of all time class. It was the *only* class I enjoyed. I loved using it, the buffs, the nuance, all of it disappeared under one update claiming to try simplifying the class for beginners. I didn't just *hate it,* I felt it break my heart. I've never felt the melodrama of betrayal until that moment, and all of those years, all of those adventures and memories, and even the money I dumped into this game to help my silly little guild- it meant nothing. My love for the game meant nothing. I felt as if my character died, never to return, never to be redeemed. When you stated that the new level cap was 20, I felt so confused, until I realized that this has been years since I tried moving on from this game. I can't overstate how heartbroken I felt over all this. The game that Neverwinter once was to ***me*** is a hole that will never be filled, even as I find new love within Star Wars The Old Republic (here's hoping that new update coming February doesn't pull the same thing that Neverwinter did to me! Ha-... Haha... ha... We'll see how well this comment ages...).

[@seanmurphy3932]

nerd

[@wolfspider1628]

@@seanmurphy3932 You wound me, sir!

[@Liquessen]

Nerd

[@Unchainedful]

I feel you bro, every update for some reason keeps nerfing my trickster rogue. My class does decent damage but never the highest damage. We used to do the most damage but that’s long past now, I don’t understand why in every needing update they’ll nerf the highest damage and also nerf the rogue again for laughs.

[@toasterdestroyer3774]

Mod 16 or whatever mod was undermountain, dumbed down all the classes into the ground, I loved my warlock but it became insignificant

[@KonaiNobi]

Played Neverwinter for several years shortly after it came out. Haven't played it in quite some time and this very painful and honest review is a masterpiece on where Cryptic is failing and why I won't go back to Neverwinter unless things seriously change. It's very sad because Neverwinter was really such a good game when it was still pure.

[@basmus]

Hi josh, I found my way to you through the "was it good?" series and I love all the videos and your way of breaking down games. I recently discovered this channel which I really enjoy watching as well, even though I've never really gotten into mmorpgs. After you mentioned the shared currency "Zen" and star trek online in context to it, I wondered if there will be an episode of "worst mmo ever?" on star trek online. (im a huge Star trek nerd) I tried getting into it multiple times over the span of its existence abut it never really hooked me and the quality seemed to degenerate extremely between every one of my "visits". Keep up the amazing work you're doing! ❤

[@DrBob66]

I would love to see you take a look at DDO (dungeons and dragons online). It's gone through a lot of changes, i played it when it required a subscription but now it has gone free to play. The game required a party to complete most of it and everything was instanced. Now I think you can probably do most of the early stuff solo, up to a point.

[@nice2785]

Finally, an MMO I’ve actually played that’s ended up on the Worst MMO Ever. I must have good choice in games.

[@SuperLeonBlade]

Not all MMOs in the series are bad though. He covered Warframe in it.

[@ivailoivanov01]

@@SuperLeonBlade Wizard101 isn't bad either, the game requires membership so there's almost no p2w.

[@chilidogx]

@@ivailoivanov01 Wiz isnt bad however there is kind of a p2w scheme around it as the dino pets/wand/mount having damage bonuses and arent obtainable with normal means, along with pack energy gear being almost 2x as good as obtainable things (which are extremely low chance anyway) along with elixirs that i cant say ive ever used but do give big bonuses and last but not least some spells being only obtainable through packs (Headless for death) and them actually being really good spells like headless

[@IamaPERSON]

@@SuperLeonBlade well Warframe technically isn't an MMO.

[@micahsmith2066]

I think this really shows just how good Josh is at being a reviewer and why more people should watch this channel. Like, this was genuinely painful for him to make and I think we can tell. He's able to step back and actually see what this once great game has become. Thanks Josh, love the video.

[@the_birthday_skeleton]

my first ever RPG was Neverwinter Nights, which my dad bought me for my 13th birthday. Truly the most important gaming memory I have: it was as close to a spiritual experience I’ve come. So imagine how excited I was when I discovered an MMO calling itself Neverwinter in the PlayStation store! Nostalgia was hitting so hard, and I was so so excited. It hurt to see what had become of my intro to D&D and roleplaying. I totally understand where you’re coming from, and feel the sadness in your voice at the end of this video. Alas..

[@uchihaitachi181]

Star Trek online also had the Foundry. I had an insane immersive storylines I would play from time to time. The Olympus Trilogy. It started as a three part story and eventually grew to be a 30 episode arc, where you could make certain decisions that would have “impact” to the rest of them. My choices led me to be a father of a half human-half Romulan girl, she would go on to command the USS Obama in the future. I had friends, comrades, a task force I was a part of. I fought mirror universe ships, cardassians, Jen’hadar, Klingon, Romulan, Borg, Orions! With the loss of the Foundry I lost all of that. I was in the middle of making my own horror themed foundry mission when the word came down it was being closed up. There was a rumor at the time they were saving all of the foundry data so that it may one day come back but I don’t know if that will happen. I hope so, but I don’t think it will.

[@Zeronightmarefox]

I do miss Neverwinter. Exploiting literally every boss to get the best loot and doing it all over again in the next expansion. Good times. P.S.: Shame you didn't mention them at all, there were some absolute hilarious ones, being out of bounds 99% of them.

[@zarpadoenflaco]

As an mmo fan, I can really appreciate the effort it takes to honestly criticize the ones you love.

[@00ABBITT00]

Shouldn’t be hard. People just need to stop taking criticism for games they enjoy as criticism against them, as humans. I play ff14, love it and still constantly find flaws and systems I think need improvements.

[@orionfire1947]

Exactly this. No game is perfect.

[@MasterLPG]

@@00ABBITT00 Some value honesty whilst others cherish loyalty. Some prefer to say it as it is to make those they truly care about better whilst others take a path of supporting one's choices, no matter how bad or wrong they may seem, to see their goal through to the end, "the end justifies the means" and all. *I wonder what kind of fan you are here? :)*

[@Hoto74]

@@orionfire1947 Right, but "No game is perfect" is also often used to defend bad things that developers do. It is also used for example to excuse unfinished normal game releases (Cyberpunkt 2077 for example or the new Battlefield). Too many use it to defend their pre-purchase, too many say "but it still makes fun" (New World). One some side I can understand it, on the other side I hate this behavior, it proof companies that they can do such things with us and still sell enough copies of their game. It is important to find the right middle way. On one side the developers should never get away with something like this, but on the other, ...yeah, no game is perfect.

[@orionfire1947]

@@Hoto74 Real talk the people that defend those things when CP2077 actually was bricking peoples entire systems and its wild that anyone could even defend that in the first place, however this is not exactly the point i was making when i responded to this comment. You can still love a game and see its flaws but sometimes a game is nothing but flaws

[@rustyking23able]

There was a time when I loved never winter, they eventually did a re-work on the combat stats and after the re-work classes sucked and they forced you to invest in making your character playable again and kept on doing this till eventually you were spending way too much money and time.

[@rollinggamer5523]

have you considered doing cryptic's other big game, star trek online? Im in the same boat with it as you are with neverwinter. was playing it all the way back when you had a disk for it. even got the special edition case somewhere in storage. a game i always seem to come to back to but suffers from a lot of the same issues. Would love to see your opinion on it as im well aware that mine is extremely biased

[@monroeriddell5822]

Someone give Josh a hug! Hearing him being so heartbroken over this game breaks my heart too.

[@julidee_]

Right :(

[@blaze4096]

A slight correction, the name "Daily Powers" is meant to tie in with the 4th edition of D&D, not the 5th. Almost all of the combat abilities share the same naming scheme as 4th edition, free, encounter and daily.

[@MelissiaBlackheart]

They do, but that's about all it shares with 4th edition. A pity we never got a 4e game in the style of X-Com or Final Fantasy Tactics, because the 4th edition ruleset would work immensely well with such a game.

[@gampie13]

@@MelissiaBlackheart that is due to 4e being designed to be a mini table top game, rather than a classical table top RPG

[@simpsonwizekid]

@@MelissiaBlackheart supposedly the head designer for 4e had plans to incorporate an app system to 4e that would have greatly enhanced the table top experience. Unfortunately he died, and no one else on the team knew much about his plans because he kept it all close to his chest. It makes me wonder that if this was true, how better 4th edition would have been received, and what the state of dnd would be nowadays. I know that they use the concent of at-will, encounter, and daily powers for their dnd board games.

[@MelissiaBlackheart]

​@@gampie13You contradict yourself, because classical tabletop RPGs-- such as Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, aka "1st edition"-- used miniatures on tabletop maps as a regular thing, to the point of selling massive amounts of miniatures for that very specific use. Before the advent of the internet and, in particular, virtual tabletops, most roleplaying games were either "theater of the mind" like Vampire: The Masquerade, or tabletop based with miniatures like ADnD. DnD's rules were even derived from a tabletop wargame (in the style of games like Flames of War or Warhammer) called Chainmail, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

[@gitrekt-gudson]

@@MelissiaBlackheart While D&D may have been derived from a wargame, it doesn't require minis. D&D has always been theater of the mind for me and my group of friends and we've played since AD&D. Gampie is correct about 4e. 4E was explicitly designed to be used with minis. The rules were written as a miniatures game, not as an RPG where minis are optional. Previous versions were not like this. However, gampie does contradict, because that very complaint about 4E is why 4E would translate to an XCom/FFT style video game really well.

[@T0mek87]

I used to play Neverwinter when it was new, and played through all the expansions, while they were released, up until Rise of Tiamat. By then there were those artifacts, that you needed to feed with the items to power up, and it was so much of a grind. This and doing all the boons. But the Foundry was absolutely bonkers.

[@zanderwoods5434]

The only issue I got with this video is that Neverwinter seems more related to 4e, not 5e. Everything else is depressingly accurate.

[@FrenziedFury]

If Josh is doing an episode on this game, he *has* to do one on its brother Star Trek Online.

[@RoscoeWasHere]

I thought the same thing as soon as he mentioned it.

[@aka-47k]

as long time sto player...its pretty much the same review, lol cryptic did the same to both games sadly.

[@tineye5100]

Yeah it makes me wonder why anyone was shocked by Magic Legends’s failure. Cryptic is really the worst.

[@Firevine]

I loved STO... and then they did the exact same things to it that Josh mentioned here.

[@zeroneutral]

Oh dear lord.

[@chritlevgaming9297]

This game is visually stunning, I am absolutely mezmerized by the expresivity and creativity in the animations. It's sad mmos always have to go down the road of being a cash grab

[@bread9923]

hey, sometimes they start out that way.

[@vinsanity40k]

yes it was an impressive way to expose a player to the entire mythology of the forgotten realms. pretty overwhelming actually.

[@TheImperfectSon]

This game isn’t a cash grab whatsoever. The people who spend money just suck at the game and don’t know how to use their head in order to reach end game quickly without spending. I try to give others advice but their impatience always sets them back. Being patient and not wasting AD to upgrade your toon is key. First you want to invest into the zen exchange. Once you have zen you can get VIP. Then you continue to do the zen exchange and flip items off the market. Only buy things that are the best of the best. Don’t ever buy something just because it’s an upgrade. If it’s not gonna be apart of your end game build don’t bother. All you did was waste AD on a temporary boost of power. I’ve been playing 15 months and have 38mil AD 33k zen and and 5 zen orders pending. My rogue is at 75k IL. I have everything I need besides mythic mount collars and the BOA. If you use the AH and zen market you can make profits quickly. For example I just bought x50 10 companion upgrade token packs off the AH as a bulk deal and re sold them as singles and made 850k AD. I win AH bids often. Made about 4-5mil AD the past week just from buying and selling items. Set an alarm for a good profit item if you’re able to be online at that time. Bid at the last second and you can easily win and sometimes double or triple your return by re selling it.

[@Golinth]

@@TheImperfectSon you're in denial mate, it's time to move on.

[@TheImperfectSon]

@@Golinth I’m in denial that I reached end game without spending? It’s easy to do if you have a brain and know how to work the AH. If you’re stupid and don’t know how to make AD and turn it into zen then sure it’s a cash grab. I personally don’t have to spend money because I’m not an idiot. If I wanted to spend money to be good at game I’d play Diablo immoral. I’m sorry you weren’t good enough to advance in the game without spending. Don’t get upset because I did it easily. I use my brain rather than my wallet. I’m proof you don’t have to spend to be good in this game. 2 more reagents and I’ll have my boa too. There’s so many ways to make millions of AD. X2 refinement event is an easy 6mil AD minimum. Siege event is an easy 30mil AD. Using the AH is an easy way to make AD constantly. Buy stuff at bulk that’s cheap and sell it as singles. It’s really not that hard.

[@budaroddy]

I feel you bro, at least we ha fun, and wholesome memories to keep and share, love your channel keep growing, and can I suggest that Pokemon 3D MMO?

[@Erekai]

I remember playing Neverwinter when it was in closed beta.. memory is a little fuzzy but wasn't there some major currency dupe glitch discovered like RIGHT at launch or even maybe slightly before? I don't even know if it was those Astral Diamonds or a completely different currency that no longer exists in the game, but what I DO remember was that even after this major currency dupe was discovered, the developers/publisher DID NOT roll back the server(s) after they fixed the glitch, so from what was essentially day 1, the economy was completely f*cked. That was the day I stopped playing the game. That's right, I stopped playing this brand new MMO on practically day 1 due to an economy that was royally screwed up, that they refused to roll back to fix. And I never touched it again. I guess I dodged a bullet.

[@vonrelevanz1963]

3 minutes in and I must say: as a warframer, I loved your critique on it and you were on spot when it comes to it's flaws. You now taking the punishment is just awesome. You are the best critic i know and i highly recommend you to every warframer or mmo player in general i know. You, sir, are doing it right. Everyone deserves to know what they're into playing. I cannot stress enough how highly I treasure your content.

[@jeroenstolp9889]

I recently (3 days ago) started playing Warframe because of Josh's review of it. My main takeaway from that video was "Very steep learning curve, but this game can be that game you sink thousands and thousands of hours into if you can stick to it. Also, the core gameplay loop is incredibly fun".So far that has proven true for me. Obviously, only 10 or so hours in, I'm definitely not intimately familiar with all of its systems and complexities, but I'm having fun bullet jumping around and slashing everything on my path. The flaws that the game has are flaws that I can live with, and to me that's what picking your game is all about.

[@vonrelevanz1963]

@@jeroenstolp9889 Exactly.

[@-CyberFrame]

@@jeroenstolp9889 Welcome aboard, Tenno. Have you seen the preview of "The new war"?

[@jeroenstolp9889]

@@-CyberFrame I have not (yet) seen much of anything! It will come with time, I'm sure :)

[@IamaPERSON]

@@jeroenstolp9889 welcome, Tenno! If you need help with anything, just let me know

[@balanceofjudgement4282]

The Foundry was the best idea for an MMO that I've ever seen, and on top of that, it was perfectly matched with the general idea of people creating their own adventures in DnD games. I cannot overstate how good some of the fan-made maps were. I did not know that they had removed it. The last time I played NWO was when they turned my warlock into a healer (?), which I just couldnt get behind. I loved the customization for each spell that you got, the talents, the passives... how you could mix and match them to make your char your own. Such a damn shame.

[@earlpipe9713]

NO MORE "FAN ORIGINATING FUN", WE'RE THE EXPERTS & YOU ONLY DESERVE TO PLAY PIGGYBANK SIMULATOR

[@DaGrox94]

I agree with you, the old progression system was so much more fun and you could do so much more with it. I actually played a Warlock Healer BEFORE they officially changed it to be one. The Temptation feat tree allowed you to heal allies based off your lifesteal stat just by attacking enemies. It was called the Templock by the community. I could heal just as much as a dedicated healer and it was awesome! So when I found out they were giving the Warlock a real healing option, I was super excited! But they removed the lifesteal stat and replaced it with defense, so all my gear was useless, gave us a clunky, barely functioning TAB ability (that still doesn't work, even years later) and we now have a resource pool that increases our healing when it's high, but all of our healing spells use it up. So after healing your group ONCE, your healing efficiency goes down and stays down for the rest of the fight, unless you just sit there and don't heal for a good 10-15 seconds because it regenerates so slowly. It's not that it's weak or anything... it's just not fun, at least not compared to the original Templock.

[@TheMichigami]

@@tabunato1323 In City of Heroes "Architect Entertainment" was also a user-created content feature like the Foundry. Some of the best story arcs in the game were written in the mission architect, some of them by people from the comics industry that were also players of the game, and well-known authors, but most of em by people just creating stories or making "badge farms" for the "defeat x amount of this type enemy" awards. It seems that once Cryptic found an idea it liked it ran with it in several games, CoH was Cryptic Studios and Paragon Studios. also yeah, "sun-setting" was their preferred cute name for pulling the plug on things, they used it for the CoH shutdown announcements too.

[@ZorotheGallade]

Best thing of the foundry was players could leave you tips if they particularly liked your custom adventure. It was a way to encourage creators to make quality content and made creating all of that feel rewarding. But I guess Cryptic just couldn't tolerate the idea of players having fun with each other...

[@ZorotheGallade]

Oh, and of course downtime activities. Leadership was so fun because it was basically an endgame for idle play. It let you sink resources in something thar could earn you a steady trickle of wealth. And then cryptic was like "LOL NO FUCK YOU GUYS" and removed it altogether. And all the players who had spent ingame or real money into improving their Leadership just got a fat middle finger shoved in their face.

[@Altraice]

I played Neverwinter with my buddy back in college. We loved WoW but being broke college students, a monthly sub wasn’t in the cards. Neverwinter being f2p and playable on Xbox made it perfect. I remember hitting end game content and we were hyped to learn that the demon princes were bosses, or were going to be, I forget which. We never got there because we didn’t have time, but it was all still so exciting. I texted him a few months ago and said we should hop on and relive some memories. He texted back “I hopped on a little while ago. It’s bad. Save yourself the sadness and time.” Super disheartening, especially after checking myself.

[@skywise001]

I started with a founder pack and some other stuff. But I found the combat super hard on my halfling rogue or Drow Cleric. I couldnt figure out how to find a group so as they added in the layers of cash shop complexity my interest in the game died.

[@Escorducarla]

Aw man, I could actually hear your heart breaking at the end. As a WoW player, I feel that pain very acutely and my heart goes out to you. Props for being able to be honest about things. That's harder than it seems.

[@DelDel__]

As someone who has witnessed their favourite MMO slowly and painfully die, this just breaks my heart.

[@bigluke6090]

☠️ Tera ☠️

[@RAC00NFANGIRL]

@@bigluke6090 I liked Tera and enjoy it but I kind stop playing it went back to world of warcraft because that mmo that start it all.

[@angrymetalhead]

Seeing this happen to EVE Online is really sad. It too has gone the pay to win route, although it's not as egregious as Neverwinter but still it's not that far off.

[@victoriapollard6995]

Star Wars galaxies 😕

[@arisumego]

@@nahqivever since pearl abyss acquired ccp it's finally happening to eve online. i really never thought it would happen to eve. it wouldn't have had they not sold out

[@Its_Syxx]

You forgot to mention that they changed the "Cosmetics" system and caused cosmetics to just disappear if you weren't playing then. I had played at launch and bought the deluxe edition (on console) it came with either zen or a cosmetic, I can't remember which. But upon returning a few years later my whole cosmetic set was gone and I was told by support they updated how they were equipped / stored and they would not restore it because I wasn't playing during the time it changed over.

[@quirkafleeg3959]

I returned to Neverwinter recently to check out what it was like now. I played for a good 8 years before quitting. To see this, to see some of my favourite adventure zones removed, to see the cash shop now.... I feel your pain, dude.

[@CelticBloodGaming]

It’s wild, sometimes the memories of our past MMO adventures are so haunting. The people, the places and the time can never truly be experienced again.

[@rohenthar8449]

Yeah... nostalgia.

[@flawlessvic]

WoW classic did that to me. Chillwind Point pvp might be my favorite gaming experience ever. Attempted to recreate it a few years ago....no way. Stale. I need to keep those memories, memories. No use to try and recreate.

[@razgriz0n3]

Dude, I *feel* you on the loss of the Foundry The Foundry missions I played back in STO were some of the best examples of storytelling I've ever experienced and I think on them fondly to this very day

[@Code_Lin]

@@tabunato1323 while yes STO has lockboxes l,dilithium and zen, its upgrade sistem doesent work that way. And i defenitly don't think it has fallen to neverwinter's level

[@abcnt]

The only memory i have of this game was playing it during launch and remember getting this pet gifted that would actually help in battle. I think we did a dungeon or a raid, and we wiped but the damn pet kept fighting, the boss wasn't able to target it meaning we were still in the battle. took a long time but the boss fell to this winged pet lol

[@billy_cross5580]

Does Cassius in Beverly give you five stones for refining man I carry around like 5 to 10 kids for the other classes all the time I open up everything and refine it tracked. I just got to the point where you have to refine a farm abstract and also figure it out about those enhancement chickens by that can’t be slaughtered because they have to be refined first I’m pretty sure anyway I saw that upgrading bad thing beyond where I just find it was going to take 100,000 refinement points, so you know unless you’re planning on spending money which I don’t buy cats and Luna everything

[@baldrkrueger3552]

This one did hit hard. I played Neverwinter since launch for a long period of time, found a wonderful experience, new friends, a place I could relax and have fun. It did help me out crippling depression due to the loss of my father. Enjoyed every last moment of it and it deeply saddens me the state of it, and the greed that has befallen such a wonderful game. I completely understand how you feel towards it and share your pain.

[@billvolk4236]

After having to rip apart his old favorite game, even Josh couldn't keep a dry face

[@cattrucker8257]

It made him want to try case against the devs

[@joelbaker9366]

Josh Dry Face has left the building...

[@Dextrizzle]

The Foundry and the Gold Coast website were some of my favorite things in the game early on. I was really sad to see them go and seeing those things killed off made sure that I never played again.

[@ArbiterHems]

Talking about the foundry reminds me of the mission architect system from City of Heroes/Villains. Unfortunately the release of the mission architect system ended up being exploited by players, who made farming maps and ended up creating a community of max level player who had no idea how to use their powers, and currency became worthless.

[@Asytra]

The Foundry system was, by far, one of the best additions to any MMO ever. I had so many fun times playing through content in STO and Neverwinter. In fact I was even considering returning to Neverwinter watching this video, despite all the warnings about the cash shop, until I found out that they shut down the Foundry. Literally one of the most innovative systems of any modern MMO and they killed it out of laziness and greed.

[@MarinoKadame1]

They killed it mostly because they were better than the official content, and also back in the day they were one of the best content to do for leveling.

[@worldweaver2691]

@@MarinoKadame1 well there goes my desire to play STO.

[@GeneChiu]

I loved playing the "Tired of Being a Hero" foundry quest. I was disappointed when they got rid of the foundry. It was more fun than a lot of the in game content I had to do.

[@sheeptasticSeb]

Overwatch is in a similar place - it's dying, but people are still going for the custom games. You get Uno, Mario party, parkour, hide n seek, etc etc. People are really really creative. I could guarantee that if OW removed the custom games it, too, would slowly sink below the surface it's been treading

[@bigron8896]

They shut down the foundry? That was literally the best part of the game.

[@revelations1016]

Even though this video wasn’t title “Before you buy” this is absolutely one of the best game reviews Ive ever seen and Ive watched many. It was done from the brilliant perspective of a player who has played and loved the game for several years and has simply not liked what the game. Brutal honesty from a player who truly still loves but offering a warning to anyone wanting to play the game. Josh offers many insightful tips to the game and the fun it offers yet at the same time the “General Surgeon’s” warning to playing it too long like what is on a pack of cigarettes. It’s a long video but watching it from beginning to end will be helpful to anyone with interest. Thank for the advice and plus youve earned a sub.

[@army8443]

Neverwinter used to be my favorite mmo back in 2013 control wizard spell storm was my passion and I had a lot of fun with pvp (BTW, I was a free to play player). Back in the days I did pvp a lot to grind for its currency and get the its pvp gears with my friends. It was fun during before I get to higher level, until one day I hit 70th level and did some pvp within that pvp match almost everyone was pay to win players and my team were humilated me for not having a better gear that can be acquired by spending Zen (they were basically called me a broke noob or something that have similar meaning) I kept playing for sometime but the fun was gone, I realized that the way to get good at this game was to spend my hard earn money. It also broke my heart to watch this video it reminiscent the good memories I have with this game and it also reminds me why I stop playing it in the first place. Thanks for such a good and honest video.

[@jaredwalley5692]

28:28 Even before this point, I was like " that's almost a rent payment, or a mortgage payment (like 20 years ago)." That's insane!