Journalist breaks down the extreme measures incels are taking for sex | Ben Zand interview

[@Nightss]

This is an extreme dip in quality for this channel, what on earth is this story e: welp, at least you changed the clickbait title into something a little less tabloid

[@PastaSauce.]

Have I stumbled on to a Daily Mail conversation

[@stevopirate9017]

Trans politics sells these days.

[@raquetdude]

Cause it’s on one of the major British TV channels…

[@frazerheritage6929]

hi! I'm one of the few academics in the world with a double-blind peer-reviewed book on incels - and specifically, the only one who deals explicitly with the language they use and this kind of label in the incel community (i.e., in terms of looking at how it is used). Having watched this and now having watched the documentary, I'm somewhat disappointed that Ben didn't appear to reach out to people whose job it has been/is to investigate the incel community. (He may have done but not included them in the main script, or I may have missed it). I found it somewhat problematic to conflate the incel community with people who transmaxx. In fact, the very idea of transmaxxing is very rarely seen in the language used by the incel community. It was also somewhat problematic that, throughout the documentary, extreme precedence is given to somewhat unrepresentative samples. Although certainly an interesting phenomenon, unfortunately, the documentary felt thoroughly under-researched (and this can also be seen in some of the commentary that runs through the interview, with some of the ideas positioned by Ben being disconfirmed by previous research). So, thank you for introducing an interesting topic - but please do reach out to experts (and people who have been investigating these kinds of communities for multiple years) when making these documentaries - as it will really help inform them significantly more. If PoliticsJOE or Ben want to reach out to talk about these findings in relation to academic literature - and a growing body of research into the topic - I (along with many other academics) will always be happy to chat.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@name7505]

Did you investigate incels honestly? Or are you just a left wing hack who wrote a book demonizing incels because they challenge your leftist dogma?

[@Vrailly]

I remember it being used a lot in the /r/braincels subreddit, but not really with any well thought out ideology or intent behind it. Honestly it's a bit of a shame that subs like /r/braincels and /r/incelswithouthate were banned, they were such a massive insight into the whole incel phenomena.

[@frazerheritage6929]

@@Vrailly Part of the data I use in my book comes from R/Braincels and is a representative sample taken not long before it was banned (approx 300k words, but I also have access to a broader sample of 2M words). Having watched this and been somewhat frustrated, I even returned to the data before writing the initial comment. While Looksmaxxing is a pretty common occurrence, Transmaxxing doesn't occur even within that sample taken from R/Braincels (neither do variations thereof); so while it may have been used, it would have been somewhat infrequently used and likely wouldn't be captured by any other representative sampling. Some of us still have the data - but this also reiterates the kind of frustration I have - this kind of data gives such an insight into what's being spoken about, some of us publish about it, and then some journalists decide to take a single person's discussion about it uncritically.

[@lynb1022]

@frazerheritage6929 How much overlap do you see between incel and MGTOW communities? (I would argue there is a fair bit of overlap, at least regarding their contempt/hatred of women.) Asking because as far back as 2015 MGTOW KZbinrs (ironically) were openly discussing the 'benefits' of men transitioning for personal gain (including predatory access to women's spaces, gay men being more attractive to men attracted to femininity, a category that it appears Sammy fits into, and more), many years before the term "transmaxxing" entered the lexicon. They were deeply misogynistic, convinced 'women have it easier', convinced women are nothing more than co*k-teasers and gold-diggers, and that by masquerading as women they would 'teach women a lesson'. (They were right in that regard because here we are.) I took notes and saved MP3s. Search "Shi-nu Asami: A trans women stole my boyfriend. MGTOW & feminist Shi-Nu" (22 mins, Jul 12, 2015) - in it he theorizes that in coming years MGTOWs will want to marry TWs because they're 'more feminine', 'like cleaning', can't trap men via pregnancy, etc. More recently "MGTOW Sandman- If You Can't Beat Women Then Join Them" (12 mins, Jan 5, 2021). Those 2 are enough to open Pandora's Box and find many more. You can still find the 73-page manifesto by searching "Transmaxxing: the Incel-To-Transwoman Pipeline" (PirateWires).

[@evilgayjester2997]

God this is a mess, Ed. A nonsense fringe forum post treated as if its even remotely newsworthy. Ben's misuse of terms and pretty vacuous observations in the interview show he has essentially no understanding of trans identities or the experience of transitioning, even to ask basic questions about how, given the social, bureacratic and legal barriers to transition, enacting this spooky scary 'manifesto' might be pretty dicey if more than his one measly example were to give it a try. Even as a conversation about the wider incel subculture, this guy, despite making multiple documentaries about it, seems to have very little to say beyond standard hackneyed stuff like 'men who watch andrew tate have been isolated by the internet' and 'men feel directionless, except for me because i read about stoicism'. Meanwhile the fringe ideology you're both elevating operates on the same misogynistic and transphobic assumptions of 'secret predators' and men undergoing 'invasive procedures' for incremental gains based on gender stereotypes which are fuelling a massive push to exclude LGBT people from equality legislation in this country. That movement isnt on the 4chan boards of five years ago, its on the agenda of our current equalities minister and is funded by some of our country's most rich and famous people. It might be worth shining a spotlight on that instead. Really garbage moral panic 'reporting' from channel 4 here, being poorly and pathetically challenged by PolJoe and Ed Campbell, who I previously would have expected better from, but have now lost me as a listener.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@_permanence]

It’s fake news

[@rahuldahoob]

This is ultra faminist propaganda

[@fang_xianfu]

I can't believe that Ed at no point said "How widespread do you think this is, and what evidence is there for that?"

[@Minorheadlines]

Are we getting our news from 4chan troll posts now?

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

very misleading title. that is not quite what is happening, if it is happening at all. its worth noting that ALOT of this kinda of thing online is literally dripping in performative irony and fakery even to the point of interviews and IRL stuff. It is not to be taken seriously. That said, that is largely the problem itself.

[@mrbrookeyoung]

Yep this is just throwing red meat to transphobes

[@whatsahellhell]

I do think shadowy internet groups are worth addressing I'm ngl. People like Andrew Tate didn't come out of nowhere, the conditions had been set for years beforehand and no one noticed until it was too late. Surely you'd rather address these people than just completely ignore them? Like putting water on the fire before the Andrew Tate or similar spark can come along. Too much we look back like "how did this happen", this stuff can't be ignored

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@whatsahellhell I'm not saying ignore it. I'm saying that a foundational unspoken element or open secret of internet groups like these, is the 'game' of coming up with the most ridiculous thing and seeing if it'll get taken seriously or become mainstream (or at least enter mainstream awareness). And things often do. To a great detriment to society. They're F'n with eachother and us because they have nothing better to do.

[@bassekaman8315]

Its the name of donnys book get a grip

[@sopha_bed]

Honestly, I find his choice to make a doco about that fringe fringe shit as though it's a thing happening at any significant scale profoundly irresponsible right now, when there are so many news outlets already propagating these tropes that trans women are f*cked up men doing it for sexual kicks (either directly, through allusions, or through stuff like the fact that 'trans woman' and 'rapist' pop up next to each other so often relative to the proportion of assaults which are done by trans people). We saw cis commentators get very close to giving a shit after the Sunak Ghey gaffe, but now it's back to Parkrun nonsense and this documentary, which feels almost tailor-made to muddy conversation and get well-meaning cis people worried about trans stuff. Really would be cool to see you guys get some trans voices on here, rather than airing this nonsense and fumbling around on trans stuff

[@serraangel7465]

Ppl transition for many reason including having more social power. Female to male want to feel stronger and less likely to be victim. Males transition with the idea that they will be attractive when women aren't all conventional attractive. A lot of trans women identify with Barbie than a actual women.

[@MONO___]

I'm so disappointed that at no point in this do they raise the fact that trans women do not in fact 'have an easier love life', but actually are hugely at greater risk of sexual assault and rape. I understand that this is more about what incels think than reality, but this thumbnail is dangerous and not clarifying this feels awful. (Edit: thank god you at least changed the thumbnail,and Ed gets kind of close to the point at 19:45)

[@djboswell4325]

trans women? lol

[@hayleyxyz]

@@djboswell4325 If you have a question, ask it. Not interested in deciphering your social cues because you're too cowardly to state what you mean.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@iielysiumx5811]

They did, they said the benefits are alleged and trans women suffer horrendously in the UK especially in relation to violence and discrimination

[@custardstuff5178]

Literally peddling a made up moral panic as fact... thanks Joe!

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

yeah as Ben said in the beginning he's making a doc about looks-maxxing, body dysmorphia basically, and this aspect - incels transitioning - seemed to have been a small part, but C4 jumped on it as it's currently a 'hot topic' and asked him to make a piece just on this...

[@Welcometotherox]

Absolutely unnecessary and pretty shocking from this channel, honestly. I'm really surprised that Joe thought this was acceptable.

[@Dgsouthwest]

@@Welcometotherox This exposes incels and how trans community is coopted by bad faith actors. Not attacking trans people at all.

[@piddlydiddly]

@@AlexiaAnnastasya not my impression at all from the documentary. Painted incels that way, but not solely trans.

[@damienx0x]

Don't be so defensive.

[@mattjones1776]

I watched the documentary and it didn't really have anything to do with incels. The person doing the transmaxxing had a boyfriend and seemed to be more non-binary, or sexually fluid. They didn't say there weren't any negatives to someone born male who wants to present as female, they just focused more on the positives, of which some seemed to be a bit crass.

[@damienx0x]

I'm sure that the man who made the documentary knows more about it than you.

[@vintologi]

I recommend reading the transmaxxing manifesto directly yourself instead of trusting what ben is telling people.

[@SaminaHat]

Hi, I'm Sammy in the doc. You are very perceptive

[@crawlingthing7758]

@@damienx0xthe man who made the documentary is a hack who’s past documentaries have consisted of making a joke out of mentally ill people.

[@serraangel7465]

Did we watch the same thing?

[@PastaSauce.]

This is very dangerous and disappointing to see on the channel. The general trans population are currently fighting for their rights and this guy decided to highlight a very very small number of people to distort the waters.

[@stevopirate9017]

Maybe there should be tighter regulations around transitioning to weed these people out...

[@daikucoffee5316]

@@stevopirate9017Which people?

[@Thelma7361]

@@stevopirate9017these people don’t exist. Medically transitioning from male to female is like taking anti viagra anti libido medication. Testosterone blockers are used in chemical castration of sex offenders. The guy who made this documentary has done zero research on this. If you took any cis man and put him on hrt he’s gonna hate it and start developing dysphoria and will stop. Just like if you gave a cis woman cross sex hormones she’s gonna stop when she starts developing facial hair, a deeper voice and other effects like a growing clitoris, chest hair and so on. A cis man on cross sex hormones is going to have erection problems, libido problems, breast development, female fat distribution, it’s not going to necessarily make him look like a woman, a lot of trans women pay tens of thousands to have invasive facial surgery to remove unwanted male facial features. This documentary is acting like it’s just a case of popping some pills. It’s not. Getting a phd is far easier and less expensive than transitioning.

[@T.E.S.S.]

oh piss off @@stevopirate9017

[@chrisbfreelance]

That's what's funny about the trans movement. It's all about expressing yourself, but you must do it by murky and always changing rules. "Your trans identity is yours to own" , as long as you follow these very stringent ideological rules, firstly no alternative thinking.

[@puddlel1ama327]

terrible reporting and inflammatory title. come on Joe, you can do better than this.

[@pswhite2961]

This sounds made up...not 5 minutes in and I'm out.

[@Lezzyboy87]

No they're not. Done

[@arthurtaylor2496]

Is this being transmitted as a joke?

[@cringelord7542]

cope normie

[@djboswell4325]

i hope so lol i honestly dont get this at all, when did gender become so complicated

[@Lezzyboy87]

​@@cringelord7542so edgy aren't you?

[@Jomchen]

@@cringelord7542 accurate name

[@dammitbelle1]

top comments have already done a fantastic job of explaining why this interview is a mess. all im gonna say is that as a trans person it is incredibly disappointing to see a usually fantastic news outlet platforming such drivel as if its remotely newsworthy. stop contributing to the ridiculous trans panic that has and will cost trans people their lives. do better.

[@celestina6234]

As a trans person this is a really shitty narrative to put out considering the current political and social attacks we face. The idea that people are just casually transitioning for social benefit in the current environment is a frankly baffling take. Coming out was the most terrifying experience I´ve ever been through and I genuinely can´t imagine people doing that on a whim and feeling like this was a good idea afterwards. Conversely if anyone wants to transition for any reason they should, it´s really not up to anyone else, especially cis people, to moralise as to whether who they present themselves every day as is "genuine".

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

Facts! +++ It's so incompetent to add this non-issue to the narrative. Journalistic malpractice

[@MT-kx2uc]

Very true. Avoid JOE and sticking with Novara now.

[@Romar-io]

It's not a narrative it is a real thing and there are a shit ton of people doing it. There is a whole discord and all sorts of forums and other things. They are not transitioning because they feel like the were women. They are transitioning for benefits and the presumed female privilege they believe is there. Literally all of them are incels, how can you defend that? Are you dumb?

[@richardallan2767]

So if there is a thing people do, we shouldn't know about it or understand something about it, because it doesn't fit with another thing that people do?

[@richardallan2767]

I get a lot people can't fit more than a couple of ideas in their head at once. But personally i don't like having my input limited because we are pandering to "winning over" the lowest common denominator.

[@andydyer6591]

Okay, straight off the bat, is the answer by any chance “no”?

[@djboswell4325]

youve woke the community with straight, n off the bat lol n how dare you say no!!

[@Lezzyboy87]

Exactly, this seems like something sky news or geebeebies would post

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@steven-el3sw]

Betteridge's Law of Headlines.

[@verraguid]

ALWAYS IGNORING TRANS MEN TOO

[@jh3328]

You might want to reflect on why that is. I’ll start ya off: incels exist because of the culture of male entitlement, there is currently so much public interest around you-know-what issues because of male feelings being prioritised over female safety/fairness/consent - only adding to the already massive issue of sex disparity. Still don’t get it? It’s because they pose no threat or disruption to men.

[@Striker885]

@@jh3328what are you going on about..

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

Maybe as an ally, you should listen to what trans people are saying, and question why they think differently to you on this. This short of it is that, by taking such a non-issue (like, how many ones of people are doing this?), and platforming it instead of platforming anything else that is more relevant, it's just adding fuel to the fire - giving transphobes and """"gender critical"""" people more excuses for their transphobia. Oh, I'm not transpobic, but I just thought this person was a transmaxxer. Yeah, toxic media is going to push this anyway, but this space is supposed to be welcoming to trans people, and if it wants to cover this issue, it would be better journalism to come from a place of: toxic media are pushing another harmful narrative that will be used as an excuse for transphobia, even as they pretend it's supporting trans people. It's like if PolJoe covered every single crime a migrant committed - all while saying those are the bad immigrants, unlike the good ones that come here. People that want to hate foreigners will still use it as an excuse, will still feel emboldened and excused to commit more hate crimes, and people will rightly call PolJoe out for adding to the narrative and helping to inflame tensions in an already dangerous situation. (All to say nothing of the original title and thumbnail.) --- originally wrote this as a reply, didn't want it buried Sorry

[@jamieparry6420]

Tune in next week for our exclusive interview: Are The Gays Stealing Your Husband?

[@veggienugnugs]

Sorry for multiple comments just wondering how they thought this was a good idea. I wonder how Ed's trans colleague feels about working for an organisation that puts out this content... I hope they're okay

[@Welcometotherox]

100 percent. I hope they're okay. I would have rather heard from them.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@Discombobulate453]

Did this video result in them becoming mortally wounded? Dead? Or just hurt feelings?

[@LilyRoseKnits]

Quite disappointed with this one. Given all the negative discourse around trans people, would really expect a media org like PolJoe would be shining a light on the realities of being trans and highlighting the trans experience, not highlighting a very fringe ideology that could be used to invalidate the trans experience. There's so many brilliant trans people producing content that you could talk to about trans issues - please emphasize their voices instead of making content suggesting trans women are just incels wanting an easier time in life. Being a trans woman is incredibly difficult, and is certainly not easier than being a moderately attractive cis man

[@chloelayla017]

Utterly appalled you're representing this in this way. Am done...... Not getting me back after this.

[@fulanichild3138]

I have a theory that porn exacerbates the situation of incels by giving them unrealistic expectations. Most women do not look or act like porn stars, and there's no depth of relationships, or even an element of seduction in these films.

[@seraaron]

I'm trans and nonbinary, just starting my transition, and tbh... the whole interview and the idea behind it is a mess. Ed, you've said you wanted to learn more about trans people's experiences in the UK in the wake of Brianna Ghey's death, but i gotta say this is not the way to do it. This is just scaremongering. Trans people already make up less than 1% on the population, and you're talking to this guy who's making a documentary about a niche within a niche as though it's some great and terrible epidemic. As far as I'm concerned, people can transition for any reason they like. No one is forcing them. And the more demand there is for gender affirming care, the more potential supply can be created. That's just economics right? Transmaxxers are not stealing resources from 'real' trans people. This is just splitting hairs and trying to further divide and demonize an already frought community. I really think that Politics Joe needs to issue and apology for making this video, tbh. I've been following this channel for years, but i feel very disappointed in you right now.

[@hayleyxyz]

Yeah, listening to a cis dude scaremongering and amplifying stereotypes is not how you learn about the experiences of trans people. I have been made aware of a single person who pursued "transmaxxing", and they were clearly mentaly ill, and crucially, they were using the black/grey market which bypasses all checks anyway. I'm sure PoliticsJoe saw this as a quirky curiosity to cover, but in the current climate, they're just adding to to the pile of hateful stereotypes for us.

[@holyX]

No one ows you an apology, this isn't your imaginary twitter land fam

[@jacqueslee2592]

As an incel due to having a genetic deformity that caused me not to be sexually developed as a man, I was always accused of being asexual or gay or trans due to having a micro. It sucks, but I like women. However, women like men with big ones at least 7 inches, so it is difficult for me. Being in the US, it sucks that incels and men who are disadvantage cannot experience the presence of a woman by paying for the time and entertainment. I think this psychosexual issues are US centric. In Europe and Asia, there are no incels because disadvantaged men can easily seek an escort or prostitute without the worries of being jailed or have your entire career and life ruined for soliciting. Hence, why US sees so much gun violence and suicides from sexually frustrated young men. For suicidal young men, having sex with a woman can easily change the mindset of the young man. Hence, why Europeans are more relaxed than paranoid and incel loser Americans.

[@Discombobulate453]

The world has many differing views and opinions. Or have you been locked in an echo chamber for that long, that you’ve forgotten that?

[@moonman62]

Disappointing interview tbh, at least you managed to change the the daily mail tier title I guess.

[@veggienugnugs]

Dysmorphia is not the same thing as dysphoria... It's gender dysphoria (which you don't need to have to be trans), and body dysmorphia which is something common in people suffering from eating disorders. That is so basic, how could he do a whole documentary and immediately get that wrong 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@ZeldaKid5000]

Yeah never heard of the guy he's interviewing here but clearly he hasn't come at this documentary from a place of understanding the trans perspective whatsoever. Not sure if anyone else caught it as well but later on when he said this "could be offensive to women, AND the trans community", it was definitely a tell he doesn't view trans women as potentially being equally as offended by those sterotypes. No idea why P-Joe thought this was worth an interview tbh.

[@veggienugnugs]

Is it just me or does Ed seem really uncomfortable in this interview?

[@ZeldaKid5000]

@@veggienugnugs it might just be us projecting our own feelings but I definitely felt that too. He at the very least wanted to try and centre the conversation on the trans of it all, but the interviewee was having none of it.

[@kieraisverybored]

@@veggienugnugsthis interview gives me vibes of something enforced from the top. i think it’s important to recognise that we do not actually know who owns politics joe

[@jacqueslee2592]

As an incel due to having a genetic deformity that caused me not to be sexually developed as a man, I was always accused of being asexual or gay or trans due to having a micro. It sucks, but I like women. However, women like men with big ones at least 7 inches, so it is difficult for me. Being in the US, it sucks that incels and men who are disadvantage cannot experience the presence of a woman by paying for the time and entertainment. I think this psychosexual issues are US centric. In Europe and Asia, there are no incels because disadvantaged men can easily seek an escort or prostitute without the worries of being jailed or have your entire career and life ruined for soliciting. Hence, why US sees so much gun violence and suicides from sexually frustrated young men. For suicidal young men, having sex with a woman can easily change the mindset of the young man. Hence, why Europeans are more relaxed than paranoid and incel loser Americans.

[@McKluskie]

I simply don't believe this at all

[@EnbeeEspee]

Nah, come on. Talking about the trans community and those who want to attack it with no representation from the trans community? PoliticsJoe, you know the score in 2024.

[@LimeyRedneck]

Ben seems like a very silly, ignorant young man who has fallen for another daft idea: The grind mind. More importantly though Joe, why did you think interviewing him was a good idea?...

[@damienx0x]

You're mindlessly attacking him.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@LimeyRedneck]

@@damienx0x Of course I disagree with your characterisation of my state of mind. I'm interested in hearing your opinion about this interview though, Ben specifically.

[@Striker885]

@@damienx0xbecause he’s an idiot, or at the very least a grifter journalist

[@Discombobulate453]

Because living inside an echo chamber is not a productive thing for society. Debate and your viewpoints being challenged however, is.

[@Blancmangebeing]

Title seems very moral panicky, would expect better from JOE :(

[@damienx0x]

Why so defensive?

[@painunending4610]

Moral panic? From a journalist? Who ever heard of such a thing!

[@Blancmangebeing]

Just thought the JOE team were a bit better than this- glad they changed the title though, but was a shame to see

[@Blancmangebeing]

What do you mean?

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@cipherhex]

Are people watching this before commenting? I'm a fully supportive trans-ally here, and having heard about, but being pretty unfamiliar with, this before, my only takeaway from this interview is pretty concrete that "these people are *not* people who are born in the wrong body" (17:37), and that they discredit and do harm to the cause of actual trans people. Now, I couldn't comment on what this guy's documentary is actually like (I get the impression it may be more anti-trans than JOE's output & Ed here, but I may be wrong). And I'll admit, I think it's definitely up for debate, as to whether or not, this is worth talking about on the national stage - with it likely being a handful of internet oddballs... But let's not kid ourselves, the right will 100% use this as a culture war issue to discredit actual trans people. Is it not worth getting ahead of the game here, and separating these maxxers from real trans people, no? (EDIT: just read that the title and thumbnail were different when first uploaded, fair enough, I don't know what they were!)

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

Maybe as an ally, you should listen to what trans people are saying, and question why they think differently to you on this. This short of it is that, by taking such a non-issue (like, how many ones of people are doing this?), and platforming it instead of platforming anything else that is more relevant, it's just adding fuel to the fire - giving transphobes and """"gender critical"""" people more excuses for their transphobia. Oh, I'm not transpobic, but I just thought this person was a transmaxxer. Yeah, toxic media is going to push this anyway, but this space is supposed to be welcoming to trans people, and if it wants to cover this issue, it would be better journalism to come from a place of: toxic media are pushing another harmful narrative that will be used as an excuse for transphobia, even as they pretend it's supporting trans people. It's like if PolJoe covered every single crime a migrant committed - all while saying those are the bad immigrants, unlike the good ones that come here. People that want to hate foreigners will use it as an excuse, and people will rightly call PolJoe out for adding to the narrative and helping to inflame tensions in an already dangerous situation. (All to say nothing of the original title and thumbnail.)

[@SaminaHat]

I am a Valid Trans-Person and how I choose to justify my transition, whether through logic and external factors (Which are constants) and How I "feel" (Which is a Variable and a sporadic one at that). It's worrying to me that a emotional decision trumps that of a logical one when I think both are just as valid, depending on your mental temperment.

[@kieraisverybored]

transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@chuzzbot]

Growth mindset? Sounds as bad as the incel advice.

[@josefinacupido9872]

I might wonder why you did not think of having a Trans person involved in this debate? Only asking!

[@daviniarobbins9298]

This sounds an awful like autogynephilic to me which is also made up and total rubbish.

[@pinkblake]

this sucks Joe womp womp

[@SashaGrace94]

Just watched the doc, really disappointed firstly in Ben’s clear lack of understanding of the trans community given his misuse of the terminology, you don’t change sex, transitions relate to gender. Also, the trans consultant they found was also off their tits. Sammy didn’t come across as the villain of their own story necessarily but I kinda (no evidence obviously) felt that they were likely in the gender diverse space and the ideology was their excuse to get over their repression and actually transition. Interesting that my initial thought about what a transmaxxer would be like was like Ben’s description here, so perhaps Sammy is someone who is on a journey with their gender identity. For me, I’m really torn because on the one hand it’s interesting to know, I hadn’t heard of the manifesto, but fuck me it feeds right into the anti trans, people only do it for the lols mentality and that’s really damaging for trans people. Or maybe I’m the one in the wrong. I guess I was hoping Ben would have given the people featured in the doc more challenge and featured a trans person who could offer the counter point at the minimum. To offer the unchallenged narrative that people transition because they are lonely incels and they will be attempting to enter gender separated spaces because they are cleaner is dangerous.

[@chrisbfreelance]

That's a lie, having surgery carried out (I know not all) is clearly a way to try and change sex in their view. Genitals and breasts are not gender.

[@veggienugnugs]

Maybe next they'd like to uncritically interview someone with a documentary on how "reverse racism" is real 🙄

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

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[@The_Modern_Medusa]

So a serious documentary maker covering some for of gender change uses the term 'gender dysmorphia', right. Clearly not bothered with things like research or accuracy.

[@tonyhoffman3309]

Both terms are used

[@GreatSageSunWukong]

Absolutely zero talk about women and how this affects women and womens safety not a care in the world for women who are human beings too you know, that deserve the same respect, dignity, right to safety and right to be listened to as men.

[@chrisshaw5709]

Is “looks maxing” not something we’ve just accepted that women are expected to do with make up, plastic surgery, botox, weight obsession etc? I’m not in anyway trying to minimise the issues that incels have - it just strikes me as a close comparison to how society views women with so much weight put on looks when deciding their value?

[@djboswell4325]

un subbed

[@llauram3650]

this is so stupid

[@jannerick2]

nicely put

[@lindsaybelderson7735]

I can see why it's happening, as misguided and unwise the idea is. Being a man like the one he was does really suck in society as it is today. Being a bloke seems to come with the assumption you're naturally strong, superior, have a head start in life over the other half of society, and if you can't exploit it, then you're a failure. I can see the appeal in going for a social role and aesthetic in society that appears more achievable and satisfying in terms of self esteem, the alternative for them does appear to be (from their perspective) rather grim.

[@serraangel7465]

As a person with a genetic disease im deeply offend that anyone has a right to feel comfortable in their body. The mental illness is in the surgeries and hormones not the desire to appear as another genders stereotypes. Having surgery to change your body is unnecessary, it will damage your health in the long run so will hormones. I hate that my body causes me physically pain. I hate it makes me weak. I hate that i have to get ivs of medication. I dont get to be comfortable in my body. Anf age will rob most ppl of feeling comfortable in their bodys. Your knees and back will betrayed your comfort. Happiness isnt suppose to be a regular feeling its rare. Feel blah is most of time. Also what we defined as female/ male rarely have anything to do with character and everything to do with appearance. Fyi being pretty is Not a female quality just like being strong isnt male. We actually need to try to see women and men without the patriarchy gaze on people.

[@kpaine9231]

"Just be nicer, and you might get laid" Biggest load of crap I have ever heard.

[@norab84]

yeah, given the clickbait title, I thought I'd check the comments before watching and decided I'm not wasting my time with this nonsense- very disappointing, PJ!

[@norab84]

I'll be honest; I just watched it as part of the podcast and I don't think I was fair- it was actually pretty interesting. The big thing that lets it down is the clickbait title.

[@AM2K2]

@@norab84 What was the original title? They've changed it

[@norab84]

@@AM2K2 I honestly can't remember now, but it was pretty disingenuous.

[@kieraisverybored]

@@norab84 transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@Discombobulate453]

So you live in echo chamber where the only opinion you’ll listen to, has to match up with your own? Right.

[@EugeneHoverhand]

Read the fucking room

[@Discombobulate453]

Read the echo chamber more like

[@raphaelmeillat8527]

One of the least interesting exchanges I've ever seen on such large channel. Title was intriguing, but content and discussion flow are such a mess!

[@musheopeaus4125]

What is this story

[@OneFaintingRobin]

I'm going to comment properly after I finish the interview, but I also want to plug one of the best video essays of the last couple of years, which is (as well as being about a weird psychodrama manga) about this phenomenon. Worth watching if anyone wants an opinion on this area that comes straight from a trans person: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3KkYouqebSofpo

[@lynb1022]

I read the article when it was published but didn't know there was a video. If you care to go way back, search "Shi-nu Asami: A trans women stole my boyfriend. MGTOW & feminist Shi-Nu" (posted Jul 12, 2015). It's only 12 minutes but a grim exposé. They really hate women.

[@OneFaintingRobin]

The video isn't just a breakdown of the phenomenon, it's broadly more focused on the manga, but it's definitely got some interesting thoughts on it all. I'll definitely check that article out though!@@lynb1022

[@Welcometotherox]

Really disappointed in this content. Withdrawing it and offering an official apology to your LGBT followers would be the only way to acknowledge this massive error of judgement.

[@stevopirate9017]

That's quite transmaxphobic.

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

+++

[@kieraisverybored]

@@stevopirate9017grow up

[@Wishfulflower]

He reveals it all at the end when he acknowledges he’s just giving the audience what they want by releasing this content…. He doesn’t actually want to expose anything because there is nothing to expose. Just a dangerous amount of trans panic to profiteer off once again! Shame on channel 4 for this crap. Thanks for at least trying to push back towards but I definitely think you should have pushed back harder as this sort of disingenuous media getting a soft pass is super problematic!

[@OneFaintingRobin]

Definitely an okay interview, and given I certainly had my concerns about two cis guys talking about this subject, I at least feel like Ben has, at least here, been very clear on trying to keep this phenomenon separate from trans people. That said, I do tend to find it difficult to believe that the number of transmaxxers who are actually using it as an excuse to process their own feelings of gender aren't the majority, rather than a smaller group. Like, as any trans person will tell you, inhabiting a body that is at odds with your interior concept of your gender is an absolutely miserable experience; I don't believe that anyone could do so 100% as a self-improvement strategy (or what passes for self-improvement in incel spaces) and actually come out with a better quality of life. Not only does it pose the risks you both put forward, around trans women being accused of the same motivations as these transmaxxers, but it also poses a counter-example; effectively, if they can choose to fill a gender presentation counter to their internal reality, why can't you? I also feel (and this is less of a critique than a 'yes, and...') that in discussions over this 'crisis of masculinity', it is worth interrogating WHY these young men are gravitating to what people like Andrew Tate say. Like, vulnerable teenagers, yes, social isolation, yes, absolutely all places these people can start. But they listen to people like Tate for a reason, and that's because they give them an appealing narrative. While from an outside view, the pressures they place on being big and strong masculine men is very harmful, it's also much easier to swallow the idea that they're miserable because they've had their Rightful Place in Society taken away, that they're entitled to sex and are ultimately superior to women but are having that repressed by, whatever, feminism and wokeness or whatever they're complaining about this week. Those ideologies are appealing because they let these young men abdicate responsibility, and give them an easy answer. Not happy. It's women's fault, because they're all shallow and only want Chads. And it's not your fault, it's just that you're naturally, unavoidably inferior; it's an unpleasant 'reality' they're being sold, but it's a simple one. Far simpler than what we on the left would argue is the reason; the combination of several systemic issues, from those same ideas around masculinity to the way that capitalism alienates EVERYONE for the sake of profit. Those are more complicated answers, and require effort and community and cooperation to try and even start to solve. It's much easier to be told 'either get buff and looksmaxx or kill yourself, those are your only options'. And, like, misogyny is appealing to alienated men, that's just obvious; it's appealing to be told that you are just inherently better than half the population. Do I know what the solution to that is? No, unfortunately. To an extent, getting to these young men before people like Tate do is a start, but we've still got a harder sell than the incels do, we still have to motivate them to believe in vast, difficult systemic change, which is harder than convincing them that there's nothing they can do, so there's nothing they NEED to do. And, to be fair, I think that outlets like PoliticsJOE are a positive resource here; because, and I don't mean this as an insult, there can be a bit of a laddish vibe sometimes (probably just because you've grown out of primarily sports-focused news), and while that doesn't mean it's just for men, or even masculine as such (I mean, I'm a woman, and I enjoy the content a lot), it's definitely more likely to appeal to men than something with a slightly different vibe. But, at the same time, we've also got to be careful not to centre incels and similar misogynistic men in our discourse; the truth is, while we there are clear issues men are facing in some areas, I'd also say that most of the men I know are not in constant crisis. I would say that most men are actually just very normal and mostly adjusted people; you two are representative of the average man, not the incels. Like, we're not going to be able to help deprogram people who see themselves as the centre of the universe if we treat them like they're the centre of the universe. We need to show them a better set of terms to engage with the world on. I think my biggest issue here is just Ben's outlook on a broader level. While I believe him when he says he's interested in showing empathy, he also seems to talk a lot about how 'controversial' he is, which is a red flag to me for any documentarian. I think this interview explored the ideas well enough, but what I feel like Ed could have pressed on is why Ben thought this was worth paying any attention to in the first place? Like, it's all well and good to say 'we thought hard about it', but who has really benefitted from this documentary? All it does is get a fringe and not especially healthy subculture more airtime, and gives Ben an opportunity to talk about how controversial he is. I seem to have come out of this interview thinking you approached it better than some in the comments, but I do think the approach could have been a bit more critically curious in terms of the documentary itself.

[@topsuperseven7910]

Hey, I don't know about 'trans' so much but this squares with a story I've told about high school. Keep in mind I'm old and the idea of someone being 'born a gay' wasn't a thing To the point: Puberty is a helluva thing and there were some of us who went from kid to masculine hairy chested muscles fast and early. Others took a while, some were slow starters and Kevin was simply not going to become Schwarzenegger. By that 10th to 12th grade we're all sex mad and sports mad but that one kid Kevin was simply boyish, slim, baby-faced and no signs of a late puberty-surge. Indeed, the girls were not impressed. You have to keep in mind, the girls were already 'women' way ahead of us in development. You wanted to be as masculine as you could to score with them. Then and now I am convinced Kevin became a gay for entirely 'strategic choice purposes and let me tell you why. I happened to know a sibling and family a little better than most and it was also just there to be observed: He got zero action from the girls, Nothing. he wasn't even considered a 'candidate', he wasn't accepted by the sports guys, he wasn't accepted by the nerds. At some point a neighbor we knew was a gay was seen driving him home after school. It seemed like overnight he was being picked up by several men in a car. a cousin said he's been going 'downtown' a lot. He started dressing in what someone today called 'twink styles' although at the time we didn't get it or have a name just that he was 'dressing weird' and ghey. mind you, nobody ever really noticed him much anyway. Here's what I think happened; - He figured out he was getting nothing as it stood. Nothing going on, not a date, not a nothing but being the weak, unpopular, least sexually appealing, forget it. - He discovered that as a gay, it was 'opposite world'. Ohhhh boy was he popular! He became the most sexually attractive hottest center or sexual world. I think it was strategic choice. It was not some newer interpretations where he just happened to be born a homosexual and was so confused and finally 'discovered himself as always being a gay and all that. No. He made a kind of 'game move' that was more benefits and less liability, more wins than losses, more gains.

[@FolkloreIreland]

This interview pushes boundaries in a good way. Very interesting food for thought.

[@RichardFraser-y9t]

Come with me and you'll be In a world of pure imagination Take a look and you'll see Into your imagination

[@alist0]

"Can't get a girlfriend? Become the girlfriend"

[@mp71001]

😂

[@Genderwang]

Now I am going to have to endure watching this crap just to find out if the interviewer takes Ben to task for failing to consider the impact on women of men like Sammy casually considering if he will call himself a woman and identify into women's single-sex spaces, sports, sponsorships, prisons, hospital wards, clubs, etc. etc.

[@MyMpc1]

I don't get it. Are they then lesbians looking to attract women or do they want to attract men?!

[@Trudon]

Both 😈

[@S41GON]

There is nothing to "expose" here. Isn't it beautiful in a bizare way when some people who are liberal up to their eyeballs and believe every bs of their ideology and participated in breaking down all the barriers, traditions, values and social institutions that stood against said ideology to have their fun and benefit themselves, suddenly encounter the latest "patch" of their own ideology and become astounded and bewildered and go on to declare "only up to this line, this is going too far". Yeah no, this is not the way this works, all identities and personal experiences are valid and you don't get to decide which of them you accept, according to your own ideology. You don't get to put the toothpaste back into the tube, the genie is out of the bottle and you have to live with it. This is the world you created, so enjoy. The complete breakdown of everything, total social collapse. Hell is coming and you helped creating it. Try to stand in front of the steamroller, I dare you and see what happens.

[@jacqueslee2592]

As an incel due to having a genetic deformity that caused me not to be sexually developed as a man, I was always accused of being asexual or gay or trans due to having a micro. It sucks, but I like women. However, women like men with big ones at least 7 inches, so it is difficult for me. Being in the US, it sucks that incels and men who are disadvantage cannot experience the presence of a woman by paying for the time and entertainment. I think this psychosexual issues are US centric. In Europe and Asia, there are no incels because disadvantaged men can easily seek an escort or prostitute without the worries of being jailed or have your entire career and life ruined for soliciting. Hence, why US sees so much gun violence and suicides from sexually frustrated young men. For suicidal young men, having sex with a woman can easily change the mindset of the young man. Hence, why Europeans are more relaxed than paranoid and incel loser Americans.

[@user-cz1pk8ru2j]

I don’t see the issue?

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

Its seems most people don't think this is a good/legit topic, a good video, or a good guest to interview etc. *JOE, y'all should probably take this down. It seems like a very confused mistaken misleading mess.*

[@painunending4610]

I think they should leave it up so people can continue to clown on it lol

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@painunending4610 The problem with that is "a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can put its shoes on." It doesn't do 'no harm' to leave it up, and what harm it does, isn't negated by clowning on it.

[@T.E.S.S.]

that's very very dumb @@painunending4610

[@MarkDelford]

This man is a trouble makers dream the prat

[@damienx0x]

Grow up

[@MarkDelford]

@@damienx0x iam and I'm correct

[@T.E.S.S.]

@@damienx0x weirdo

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

+++

[@Striker885]

@@MarkDelfordtotally agree, he’s just trying to make a name for himself by demonizing an already struggling group of people that no one cares about because it’s too easy

[@BeauChaotica]

This documentary is irresponsible and pointless gutter press. It doesn't amount to anything at all, and the timing could not be worse given the climate of intense fixation and hate directed upon trans people just trying to live their lives in current year. Joe spending time on it and promoting this complete non-issue is equally stupid. You should -earnestly- be ashamed.

[@quercus3290]

Dont they know you can pay for it?, Its only the worlds oldest profession.

[@GreatSageSunWukong]

the oldest form of slavery more like.

[@jcdenton7914]

3:53 some men can't looksmax because they have feminine toes....

[@stacksmalacks8826]

Who are these bots in the comments

[@veganjotaro]

There's no bots in the comments.

[@Kohanman]

ah yes the totally original and not-at-all-bot-like behavior of calling people with different views bots and npcs...

[@stacksmalacks8826]

@Kohanman there was a handful of comments with just very vague praise for the editing, all with a single emoji at the end. Very clearly artifical

[@S41GON]

Do these athletes like Lia Thompson count as "transmaxers"?

[@lynb1022]

I would argue "Yes".

[@bluecollargains]

This guys telling the truth. This is the first time I’ve seen someone else talk about this. Great interview 👍🏽

[@jackwilliams4973]

Ben your accent is upsetting, it sounds like it’s trying to find its place in the world.

[@kieraisverybored]

I would argue that his words and thoughts are upsetting and it sounds like he’s trying to find his place in a world (the right wing grift world)

[@Discombobulate453]

Ahh, attacking something the person has no control over in order to assert dominance. Now where have I heard THAT before? Ah yes, the far left Trans activists claim to have it done to them all the time!

[@_permanence]

Fake news

[@globalist1990]

We are rational animals. There's so much more in life to enjoy other than sex. Sex isn't such a big deal, just a mechanism to ensure we get new humans. We can have sexual pleasure without reproduction as well. There are no right and wrong bodies, but be humble and do not expect you are owed sex.

[@T.E.S.S.]

wow

[@Striker885]

Sounds very feminist and convenient too as women don’t have to do anything to earn sex

[@verraguid]

Cis people dont abuse your allyship challenge

[@mattcrawley4720]

what a load of Bollocks

[@daikucoffee5316]

This documentary is modern Schizophrenia.

[@damienx0x]

Nah

[@daikucoffee5316]

@@damienx0x You are just afraid to admit you’re gay.

[@T.E.S.S.]

you're trying way too hard, dummy @@damienx0x

[@anonymousa-uy1hk]

I love how the guest claims that “Sammy” character wasn’t odious because he came across as “likeable”. What he fails to understand is that anyone who tries to “transmaxx is by definition an odious person.

[@device_not_found]

cope, tranxisters will ALWAYS be valid

[@anonymousa-uy1hk]

@@device_not_found Yeah, and I just saw a unicorn.

[@rebjorn79]

LOL what now .. how much more chaos do we need to endure before we wake up -.-

[@stacksmalacks8826]

See its already started. Wierdo transphobes like this dude already feeling empowered. Joe should be ashamed of themselves

[@ILikedGooglePlus]

+++

[@seigneurdemerde1935]

Comments seem to be unsure that this is a real phenomenon. I can assure you, it is. My friend from uni (always into incel politics) has gone down this path. He’s a straight guy and explicitly went down this path for sexual reasons. He doesn’t have dysphoria. He doesn’t hide it and isn’t remotely ashamed of it. He calls himself a lesbian. The whole thing is so dark.

[@kieraisverybored]

transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@kieraisverybored]

frankly, you should respect your friends identity. if they call themself a lesbian it indicates that they likely see themselves as a women, no matter what you think.

[@lynb1022]

@@kieraisverybored how very misogynistic of you. Lesbians are *same-sex attracted*, not 'same-gender' attracted. It doesn't matter what he "sees himself as". Males can't be lesbians, ever.

[@jacqueslee2592]

As an incel due to having a genetic deformity that caused me not to be sexually developed as a man, I was always accused of being asexual or gay or trans due to having a micro. It sucks, but I like women. However, women like men with big ones at least 7 inches, so it is difficult for me. Being in the US, it sucks that incels and men who are disadvantage cannot experience the presence of a woman by paying for the time and entertainment. I think this psychosexual issues are US centric. In Europe and Asia, there are no incels because disadvantaged men can easily seek an escort or prostitute without the worries of being jailed or have your entire career and life ruined for soliciting. Hence, why US sees so much gun violence and suicides from sexually frustrated young men. For suicidal young men, having sex with a woman can easily change the mindset of the young man. Hence, why Europeans are more relaxed than paranoid and incel loser Americans.

[@chrisbfreelance]

The trans movement wholeheartedly supports and pushes the transbian agenda, which is why the comments of push back in his comment section is bizarre.

[@user-rd7ek9ve3r]

Thanks joe, Interesting discussion about a manifesto i had not heard of and i guess very niche. They them selves question it, at around 20 min talk about trans person and the effect it has on them. And in general empathetic about isolated people online who are brainwashed....with the far reach of internet, loneliness vulnerability. You can say the same about young children obsessed with skin care. And general online marketing towards women. Teeth body make up clothes and hair. Plastic surgery abd the beauty market in general can be very ominous 😢 and lots of ideologies that attract lost people in general.

[@kieraisverybored]

transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@NatalieÅrnorienne]

@politicsjoe I'm sorry; I do like watching your videos and ideas revolving around politics but as a transgender woman, this is pretty infuriating. We've been a target for abuse in the media and in the house of commons and this can give the idea the all transgender women are actually just incels through misunderstanding and seems to me that it's positing very demeaning ideas about our humanity. It's almost derogatory, dangerous and very misleading, & I'm sorry but at a time when hate crimes are on the rise, this was a pretty dire idea for an interview.

[@Gram72534]

Looks maxing, sounds like getting all dressed up with no place to go...

[@lamiaparker-simms2259]

This ideology is truly terrifying. If people are so detached from current existence what happens if they end up in a position of decision making that will effect more than themselves

[@kieraisverybored]

transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@chrisbfreelance]

If? That is already happening.

[@stevopirate9017]

Whatever you think about the people being discussed in this video, they hold a mirror up to the mere idea of trans identity and how being able to present yourself as a certain gender or undergo medical procedures to achieve it is only valid if you have a particular feeling within yourself. Whether you agree with them or not, they're making the same mockery of the trans identity that many woman feel trans people make of the female identity.

[@Thelma7361]

Just a nonsense take. Cis women are by far the biggest supporters of trans women, with cis lesbians being the biggest supporters in every survey that’s been undertaken. Secondly trans men and non binary people exist. Positionally all trans debates only over trans women is just objectively bad faith arguing. Trans identities are a medical and scientific fact.

[@zacharyrichard2764]

Really good interview on the topic. It’s weird and sad but kinda funny.

[@hayleyxyz]

How is it "funny"?

[@kieraisverybored]

transmaxxing is just a bait dogwhistle made up by 4chan that politicsjoe and this “filmmaker” have unfortunately completely fallen for. platforming it is highly dangerous and will only do what happened with incels. Incel ideology began as a joke on 4chan however it being platformed caused people to take it seriously and there are now actual unironic incels. If transmaxxing becomes mainstream it will negatively affect trans people in so many ways. Firstly, it will add another barrier to transition for trans people, trans people already face enormous hurdles when trying to transition but now, they will also have to prove that they are not simply a transmaxxer. Secondly, the idea of some who transitions but is not actually that gender they are transitioning to plays so well into the rights hands, their ideology currently is that children who are trans are mistaken and adults who are trans are groomers, so by having this transmaxxing it makes something that they can point to as evidence as it is all based around lying about gender identity for sexual gain. Thirdly, there is already a stereotype that trans people (particularly MTF trans people) only transition to trick the opposite sex (to the gender identity that they are transitioning to) into having sex with them, having a group which to the general public seem relatively close to regular trans people (in that they are transitioning, aren’t happy with their lives and bodies etc) will be incredibly harmful and only serve to perpetuate this dangerous stereotype which is the reason why so many trans and LGBTQ people have been murdered and why trans and gay panic laws are prevalent across the world. I do but some of the blame onto channel 4 as they definitely have more reach than politics joe (especially as the podcast and standalone video only have 46k views as of writing) however it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility as I am fairly confident that their audience would be quite different to one that would watch on channel 4. My view is that it is quite similar to question time platforming Nick Griffin.

[@Brian-bw3uu]

I knew a guy. Not exactly a bitter incel type but totally unremarkable, who became trans. In his words, "Before I got these" pointing to his breasts, "I didn't get any play. Now I do all the time." And this was with women he meant. And while I know other trans women who I think of more or less as women, this dude will always be a man to me

[@gaspode505]

Great idea, another Ms Doubtfire 👏

[@FIHRR-bd8uy]

imho your male / female or swing both ways / what you wear or appear to be to the outside world is irrelevant to your inner mojo / Having said that how you want to be perceived by others n respected is very important to your inner mojo & having said that / The answer imho & the only credible answer just be a nice person 🤷‍♂️ be kind it doesn’t cost anything & soothes the inner mojo & above all mind ya own business you never know what ppl are going through inside or outside the home or body 🙄 no offence meant to all involved dealing with issues like these must tear you apart from the inside out hoping ppl find the inner strength to continue your journey whatever life throws @ you hope you find your inner strength because ultimately your the only one who can & good luck to you 👍

[@T.E.S.S.]

what a load of babble

[@FIHRR-bd8uy]

@@T.E.S.S.🤷‍♂️clearly nothing sunk in😁

[@T.E.S.S.]

more babble @@FIHRR-bd8uy