SIZING MY NEXT MOUNTAIN BIKE | How long is too long?

[@lucassolorzano6460]

that’s hella dope y’all are supporting grow cycling. as a person of color new to the sport that work is really appreciated

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Heck yes. Welcome to this wonderful sport!!

[@JoyOfBike]

Stoked that you have heard of them. Elliot is AWESOME. Gonna figure out how to work his great vibes into a video soon.

[@lucassolorzano6460]

@@JoyOfBike thats wassup! looking forward to the content and that raffle

[@huges84]

@James Grimshaw your seat and seat post have no effect at all on RAD. RAD is the distance from your bottom bracket center to the bar grip center. Watch the second Joy of Bike fit video to see how it’s measured. But basically, you can lengthen RAD by using a longer stem or raising the bars. However, Lee also has a number called SHO (distance between middle of hands and steering axis) that will be less optimal if your frame is too small. Still, I believe Lee recommends prioritizing RAD over SHO. Check out his fitting book for really detailed guidance

[@briaschr]

Don’t undersell yourself with phrases like “a person of color” you are a person! If you see yourself as anything other than a human, than you are doing yourself a huge disservice and you will never reach your full potential!

[@alex1231235]

Quite possibly, THE most important MTB video on KZbin!

[@edwardo737]

I second

[@dickbrett9827]

Brutally realistic conclusions in the last 15% of the video. Helpful AF and to my personal taste 100% proven in reality.

[@alecpym1706]

Been mtbing since 2000 watched a million videos, this is the single best of them all. congrats guys.

[@estcoastdreamin2]

Thank you guys for keeping egos in check... thus saving me thousands in heartache buying the wrong size.

[@msch6524]

I can highly recommend Lee's book "Dialed" where he goes into other sizing details! Good stuff guys :)

[@JoyOfBike]

🙏

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Thank you. Alex designed the cover. Super sweet.

[@mulligatawni651]

I just received Dialed and have never before been so glued to a book. I only wish I had this knowledge BEFORE buying a medium '21 Transition Scout. I'm 171.5 cm tall in riding shoes and the Scout has a reach of 460! Kills my back. It's super stable at speed but I can't shred like I did on my small 2012 stumpjumper FSR. I think this Scout is too long to correct for my fit needs 😭

[@MartinTeerly]

I'm 186cm tall and I was riding nukeproof Scout 290 in size L. I had 50mm stem and saddle all the way back. My frame developed crack after about 1 year. I bought second frame same model but size XL. Now I run 42mm stem and my saddle is exactly in the middle. Bike feel far more stable and I feel far more confident

[@goatsplitter]

Nice! I'm only a few CM taller than you and just bought a nukeproof scout 290 in XL. Should be in the sweet spot for a neutral RAD formula perspective, anyway.

[@TheAngryHusky]

This is a really good video. I I'm 5'9" and have been riding large frames for years and dealing with hand pain. You have me rethinking my decisions in life now.

[@MrTonka]

I've been keen on the RAD sizing system ever since I took a 2 hour lesson with Lee in 2017. My bikes are the funnest!! haha

[@miguelfragoso7023]

How much did you pay? Lol

[@mbcracken]

Great insight and very useful data points. I have been riding an XL SC Tallboy (1, 2 & 3 versions) and all have fit me perfectly. After enjoying your video...take my 470 magic reach number and now I am looking at size Large in almost all the SC frames now. Same with Yeti, Ibis, etc...I am 6'2.5" with long legs and arms(ape index of +3 inches). Due to my ape index, I ended up with a 60mm stem on my Tallboy for my long XC Endurance events.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Nice!

[@mbcracken]

@@lee_likes_bikes BTW...Helm Johnson says Hi...

[@tnlonnie03]

I’m 5’10” and I went by the charts and went large twice. I struggled constantly trying to manual or wheelie. Sold both bikes after trying a medium and it is so much more playful and fun. I can’t wait to measure the RAD when I get home tonight. I have a feeling it will be spot on. Thanks again for a very informative video. You guys are the best!

[@JoyOfBike]

Nice work!!! I thought i was 5’10”. Maybe i was once. I’m exactly 5’9” on the dot.

[@miguelfragoso7023]

What did you find out?

[@jeremydwyer2724]

Thanks for producing these videos- I've been using my quick and dirty rad calculation on bikes 2018-2021 with mostly favorable results, aside from a 2020 Salsa, which is a pretty huge outlier, but I see some today which are a little out of whack. For instance, my ideal reach, using the method in the video, falls between 440mm-450mm but when I look at something like the 2022 Orbea Occam, which the size chart says that I should go for a size large on at 5'10" it has a reach of 474mm- That's a pretty massive difference! On the other side of the spectrum, I've got my 2020 Salsa Timberjack in size medium that feels about right but it has a reach of just 430mm, which pretty far off the rad minus scale. Are bikes in 2023 just going to have a longer reach even when the fit is just right because that seems to go against the whole premise of the video? Thanks. **Just to update that I ultimately ordered a size medium Orbea Occam, based on the fact that my ideal rad number, using calculations illustrated in the video, came out to: Neutral: 447.5, Minus 438.5 and Plus 456.45. The large Occam reach came in at what appeared to me to be an enormous 474, whereas medium is 450. So, medium all the way, right? That's what I thought and so I blew off what the size chart said "160-175 63.0"-68.9" M 170-185 66.9"-72.8" L" and sized down. Well, this may be an anomaly (the seat tube angle is rather steep on this particular bike and the effective top tube comes in considerably shorter than my existing bike, which only has a 5mm difference on the reach at 455) but I immediately felt too big when I got on the medium Orbea- It felt like I was being nudged too far forward over the bars and toward the front wheel and my lower half felt cramped like I might tag my leg with the bars in a more demanding technical situation on the trail and the whole thing felt claustrophobic w/out the sense of any kind of leverage advantages illustrated. When I got off the bike, I could visually see the smallness of the cockpit vs. what I'm used to. So, my word of caution is that while this method seems to work for most of my bikes, including my size medium 2019 Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail(seemingly perfect w/40mm stem) and my size medium 2021 Marin Rift Zone 3(also very near perfect when using a 40mm stem w/perhaps a touch of rad+)- Both of which are consistent with my Rad number, this Orbea, which on paper looked right, felt all wrong on the bike. The shop offered to have a large shipped from another store but I ultimately opted to stick w/my Marin as there was no way that I was sizing up to large with a 474mm reach on the Orbea and the medium w/450mm was decidedly too small- So much so that I don't believe a longer stem or saddle slammed to the rear would have made it right. It would appear that something on the level of a M/L on the Orbea with maybe between 460-465mm-ish reach reach would have done me justice but no such animal exists. Anyway, hope that helps for anyone looking at that particular bike or one with similar geometry to it.

[@goldfischli]

I experienced something similar. I am currently deciding between an M and L Canyon Spectral. My Rad number is 460 and that is exactly size M. But while demoing both M and L, I found that M felt way too small and L felt more natural. Size M felt like I was almost going otb in my normal attack position. I wonder what's going on here 🤔

[@davehumpleby3440]

This is SOOOOO refreshing! I have suspected this for some time but was unable to figure out the science myself. You guys have nailed it! Every bike magazine, test rider, retailer and distributor in the UK should be made to watch this video. The industry is constantly pushing for longer and the mags here always recommend sizing up so you're more centred in the bike. Yes, you'll be more centred, but who wants to spent their whole ride looking like they're doing the 'downward facing dog' in yoga? I ride an older (2017) bike which, as luck would have it, fits me perfectly using your guide. Henceforth, I'm adopting the R.A.D. approach and I'll be recommending it to everyone remotely interested in riding. Lee, you're a biking wizard!

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Right on! Thank you!

[@vortexkpl]

Yes the media is definitely to be blamed. I hope everyone soon realizes modern manufacturer recommended sizes are useless for progressing skills. Chris Porter and Cesar Rojo also need to be blamed. They are the dirty slobs who made riding with heavy hands fashionable. Lee you are a genius and you are the hero the world of mountain biking needs.

[@miticow3382]

Great video again Alex and Lee. The most I learned on the topic of MTB from any vids online is from yall. Thanks for sharing.

[@JoyOfBike]

Glad it’s helpful. Getting a good fit is such a foundational step. Keep shredding!!!

[@rodrigopages1054]

Just measured my bike with the ladder trick and it’s perfect i was stressed when I first saw the video

[@idhvew8]

What a great video. I really like your methods for educating our biking community and that you do this freely regardless of whether people agree or disagree with your methods. Big props for this. Now I have a better understanding why my 483 mm reach bike feels so good! Thanks and keep up the great work!

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Love!

[@JoyOfBike]

My pleasure!

[@moderntouchfurniture]

I'm 5' 10 and I measured my RAD with your formulas, and on the reach charts for Specialized I'm an S3, but Specialized recommends S4 in the sizing chart I'm right in the middle. I took a leap of faith with your system, and purchased the $11k Levo Expert Carbon. Needles to say I was extremely nervous to purchase such a bike which possibly could be too small, but you guys were right the money. After owning two Specialized Larges for about 6 years now, I couldn't be happier with this bike and size. It feels very comfortable and natural. My hands are no longer tired from leaning on them for hours. You guys are awesome, thank you for taking the time to do this video. I am getting a little tennis elbow pain though, wondering if it's my 800mm bars. I'll check out your handlebar video.

[@The_Ultravisitor]

I'm the same height as you 5'10'' and ride an S3 stumpjumper evo. Cutting my bars down to 770mm made a huge difference for my shoulders and elbows. also gave me more confidence in tight twisty stuff. i highly recommend.

[@funLad80]

what size Levo did you get? S3?

[@moderntouchfurniture]

@@funLad80 Yes Jarek and I’m loving it! According to the Specialized Sizing Chart the S4 was a better fit than S3 for me, but I took a leap of faith with these guys after watching this video, and I’m really glad I did. The downhill feels great and the climbs feel great. I actually took my two small ladders to the shop just to make sure before I purchased. But even if I hadn’t, the RAD measurement was enough information to compare to the bike reach specs.

[@funLad80]

@@moderntouchfurniture many thanks

[@funLad80]

@@moderntouchfurniture S3 got 450-455 reach. If you multiply your height in centimeters by 2.50 you will get your reach, of course it may not work for everybody but at least it gives you idea. It looks like S3 fits you like a glove

[@thelos01]

This channel by the way...love it. Just starting actual getting into really riding the MTB. 46 years old, five spinal fractures. Knee screwed together, three collar bone breaks and more ribs and leg bones than I can count. All the years of extreme skiing and such caught up to me. SO in an effort to try something safer :) - I am learning from these guys to do this and hopefully be using my body correctly in conjunction with the bike setup. Kudos to Alex and Lee for such good content and a natural manner of presenting it. Thanks so much!!

[@goatsplitter]

I'm 189cm and just bought a nukeproof 290 scout XL. Neutral RAD formula puts me about as spot on as possible without having a custom bike made; within 5mm. That's pretty dang good. Now if winter would cease up then I could find out :) Great video!

[@workhorsemtb7075]

I'm 6'5" tall and my XL bike with a 60mm stem and a 40mm rise bars is still too small but it is 1000% better than my old bike so I am stoked

[@JoyOfBike]

Heck yeah!

[@stefan1632]

This is a two part comment so hang in there! 1, First full sus bike I brought I went straight for the large awesome bike but way too big went onto ebay had to get another one. Plus the large carbon full face helmet that had to go as well. 2, I just ran your numbers regarding RAD numbers. I brought a transition patrol in medium which I totally feel at home on. My number came out at 450.85 cm and the patrols reach is 450! Hands down this is my favourite biking KZbin channel!!!

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Right on!!!!!

[@JordanBoostmaster]

great video! I am 5'10, I have a small transition patrol, works really well. A medium would probably be fine as well, but a large would definitely be way too big for me!

[@JoyOfBike]

Saw a guy your size on a large yesterday that was RAD++. I think the M is a great call.

[@JoyOfBike]

BUT SMALL IS PROBABLY EVEN BETTER!!

[@JoyOfBike]

GREAT CHANNEL BY THE WAY! PEOPLE THINK ALL THE SHREDDERS ARE ON HUGE BIKES. CHECK OUT THIS CHANNEL PEOPLE.

[@JoyOfBike]

Binge watching your vids. So good!!

[@JordanBoostmaster]

@@JoyOfBike haha thanks

[@pault8611]

Lees kung fu is unmatched, his reach calc was dead on for all my previous favorite bikes. This man has been the guru for 20 years!

[@DominoAFC]

Hey Lee and Alex, will there be some merch with just Joy of Bike coming? I'd love to support the channel, my bike skills have improved a ton the past month because of your videos

[@JoyOfBike]

Under the video you should see a couple t-shirts that we set up in a t-spring store. Let me know if they are not showin up.

[@sybarite5videos]

Same

[@JoyOfBike]

@@sybarite5videos You see it or you don't see it?

[@djowelv]

@@JoyOfBike Link isnt working unfortunately.

[@JoyOfBike]

@@djowelv Try it now?

[@styleyK]

You guy's have saved me alot of hassle. I have order a new bike (a Ribble HT725 steal hardtail size large), I am new to mtb and the last time I rode a bike disc brakes weren't a thing. I watched your video, checked my bike geometry (size L reach 473), my max reach is 447.5 I am 179cm, quickly called the manufacturer Ribble and they are going to change my frame to a medium (reach 455.5) closer to my reach. So thank you guys 🙏🏿

[@JoyOfBike]

Wonderful

[@EskilHauge]

This was THE most interesting video I have watched in the last few weeks of catching up on latest trends - after 20yrs pause from MTB. Wanting to get back into it, I have a size L Merida big.trail on pre-order (thanks COVID!), based on recommendation from bike shop. Recommendation was based on the reach between M and L being similar (435 vs 455), but standover on this model being very low and needing to extend seat tube extremely for an upright ride. Having now calculated my R.A.D, size M (435) is a perfect neutral fit for me (Merida's sizing chart is actually spot on). I realise now the the perceived small difference is in fact huge - 455 is beyond R.A.D+ for me! I guess I'll call the bike shop ASAP and amend my pre-order to a medium bike! Thanks heaps - I'd be spewing after waiting 3 months for new bike and finding it big, now knowing this formula!

[@battlegoatracing]

Did your bike come in? Have you been happy with the medium?

[@EskilHauge]

@@battlegoatracing Yes, had the bike for a little while now and very happy with it. Overall it's a great bike. Really smooth over rough terrain. Feels a little short when seated, but that's due to steep seat tube angle and me coming from traditional XC geometry. Only niggling issue is low BB and 175mm cranks = pedal strikes. I'll probably try 165mm cranks one day. I suspect 435mm chainstay makes it hard to pop the front wheel. Not sure if large would make that even harder or give more leverage? I'd be curious how the large feels, but medium is RAD for me. I'd say for varied and nimbler riding M is good, for pointing it downwards mostly, L is probably better - if between sizes.

[@katsaras1]

One of the best MTB video I've ever seen!

[@sapinva]

That is a cool way of measuring. I'm not adverse to very long frames, for aerodynamics, comfort, etc. Size charts put me on an L/XL, but tend to ride a M/L.

[@Rick-uy4kp]

I only have one 2' step OMG what to do? I did have six cinder blocks though, perfect. Actually I only used four, two laying and two standing because I didn't want to make another trip.

[@satchelofdoom1564]

Great video. Being average height and between sizes on every size chart is anxiety inducing when it comes to dumping money on a bike. If you’re comfortable on a medium that’s cool if you’re happy on trail barge then that’s cool too. Ride the bikes and work out what’s right but don’t doubt yourself based on what your told.

[@gkarma15]

I needed this video a year ago. This explains everything why my S4 Enduro felt off.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

That is a KILLER bike! But it's a big bike. I so wanted one, but none of the sizes work for me. Hence my 2019 Stumpy.

[@gkarma15]

@@lee_likes_bikes I just bought an S3 Enduro frame as a replacement. At 5'10, I'd be about 7mm off from your RAD+ calculations. After investing in two frames, I'm overdue for massive financial hindsight. If I had a chance to do this over again, maybe I would've bought a Santa Cruz Megatower. The reach (high or low) would've fit me. The comparison of price and reviews lead me to the Enduro.

[@tpthaler]

@@lee_likes_bikes Just found this video after I purchased a new 2021 stumpy, I'm 6'0 and going by the size chart I had picked the smallest size in my height range (S4). But using the data from this video, it appears I should have gone with an S3 :( I haven't even picked up the bike yet as it's being shipped in from out of state.

[@oliverdewolfe6303]

Enjoyed the video guys! I had an experience like this, I’m 5'7" and ended up returning the size medium 29er trail bike I bought last summer after a day, and replacing it with a small. There’s a psychological tendency to want to go big when you can go big, but the smaller one just felt so much better, like something I could be one with, instead of something I was perched on top of. Also, loved the moment comparing leaning on the bars and losing your center of gravity, to controlling the bars while keeping your center. I’ve studied kung fu and that is kung fu! Rock on.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Thank you!!

[@JoyOfBike]

You have better self esteem than I do brother!!! Still getting used to the idea that I'll probably be a S in my next bike. : )

[@elkat_bori_pr7791]

Can you share the reach number on your new bike.

[@MarkZiller68]

After a lesson with Kevin from Lee Likes Bikes, I came to realize that I was on way too big of a bike. I fell between the medium and large on the Yeti size chart and got a large; I actually dropped all the way down to a small, and can't believe how much better the experience is...cornering is better, I can jump and hop better, just overall a better experience. The "RAD" they talk about makes a lot of sense when you try it out by say putting your bike up on two boxes or tables.

[@mrvwbug4423]

Which is interesting because I had the opposite experience. My previous bike was just under what my Rad - number would be and it was hard to properly weight the front to corner without getting TOO far over the front, could easily go nose heavy on jumps if I wasn't religious about pre-loading the front way more than the back. My new bike which is about 20mm over my Rad + number feels much more balanced, the row/counter row motion for jumps and hinging in general feels more natural, corners much more easily, and I never feel like I'm hanging off the back even on steep stuff.

[@austinmcguff1898]

How tall are you. I just got a sb130 large at 5’11” and based on the RAD I am a small as well?

[@MarkZiller68]

@@austinmcguff1898 I am 5'10" and have the SB130, now in a Small. I am probably somewhere between a small and medium really, but was definitely NOT a large. Very happy with the small.

[@mrvwbug4423]

@@austinmcguff1898 5'10", I must have fairly long arms for my height or something.

[@archie68x]

@@mrvwbug4423 yes I am apparently not fully evolved from ape status as I have long arms (reach ) but shorter legs and when I try to do the TREK sizing chart it’s asks me to check my measurements 🙄 I’m 180 tall and my inner seem measured 77cm ! According to TREK I’m on the boarder height wise for m/l - large but inner seam would be Medium 🤪 I have a m/l Trek Fuel ex8 and now I’ve measured my RAD at 77cm looks like I’m about 6cm too long 😤

[@airclyde2]

Agree 💯. Spot on analogy to help us understand the new bike sizing conundrum. I’m 6’ tall and ride a medium Santa Cruz 5010 V4. Everyone told me I’m crazy for not getting a large. Thanks for the video!

[@JoyOfBike]

Right on!

[@JitinMisra]

@@JoyOfBike on trek bikes , for the fitness fx bike, it says medium some one max height of 5’8, I bought a large and an 5’11 , not sure if it is bad , my only issue is saddle discomfort

[@dadventuretv2538]

A bit over 5’10”. Ride an XL Bronson V3 with 2.6s and an XL Bronson V2 with 2.3s. They do everything- some things amazing, some things adequately. Even the skateparks and DJ parks. The V2 is better than the V3 in those places, but the V3 is better at gnarly downhills and at high speed and off trail features like drops at speed. So I think it depends on what you want to do with the bike. You can do everything with every bike, smaller ones will have advantages in one area and disadvantages in others and vice versa. Also think you are forgetting chainstay length, which makes a huge difference in how easy it is to lift the front wheel and concomitantly how easy to is to then get the back wheel up. And also bb drop. I’ve been paying a lot of attention to that recently and what I’ve found is that greater bb drop makes it more stable at speed but definitely makes it harder to pop the bike. I feel like I am so far down and have so far up to go to get the bike popping. And standover, stack height, seat tube length. And then there is bar width, riser height and sweep and stem size too- I mean if you’re mostly into skateparks and DJ parks narrower bars with a higher rise are the ticket. But get going 35 mph over gnar and you’ll really appreciate even just another 20 or 40 mm of width, or if mostly interested in climbing will want to bring the rise down a lot. I think one really has to look at all of these things together and understand how a change one way or another in one will affect the handling of the bike. Even with sizing I don’t think there is anyway to say that a certain length this or that is right for a person all the time, I think the first question to ask yourself if buying a mtb is what kind of riding am I buying this bike to do? Then get one optimized for that. I mean I love my Bronsons cause they’re optimized for how and what I mostly ride and do the other stuff well enough. If I were doing more other bmx type stuff then I’d get a very different bike and would love that one too.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Yes! Hence the quiver of bikes.

[@JoyOfBike]

Was talking to Elliot Jackson about bike sizes and the trends and he said two things that were important. The new tracks are straighter and so how a bike turns is less of an issue so longer works better now. AND many of these guys are running different sizes at different tracks. But I botched the Zoom call recording. LOL

[@dadventuretv2538]

@@lee_likes_bikes exactly.

[@dadventuretv2538]

@@JoyOfBike yup, trails have evolved just like bikes. The trails I’m riding now at the speeds I’m riding them and the features I’m doing on them would have been impossible with my 1990 fully rigid- I could have ridden the trails, but a lot slower and wouldn’t have been able to even contemplate the features. It’s kind of an arms race between the trails and the bikes that ride em! Def the the newer trails are designed for the newer longer bikes, but where I am (east coast and Appalachians) it’s not so much that they’re straighter but that the turns are longer and swoopier which makes it easier with the big bikes to really lean the bike down and rail around. It’s still my worst skill given that all of my formative muscle memory years was on shorter bikes, a** hanging of the back sliding the rear end around, but I keep working at it. I don’t have a problem with slow speed tight singletrack on the longer bikes, it’s just a different technique (the Pole guy demonstrates it well), but where I really notice the difference is the tight turny singletrack at moderate speeds- on a shorter bike I can def whip through there faster and easier. Some of the converted hiking trails can be bears to get through on my V3 and really require a bit of effort. And of course DJ parks or skateparks it takes a lot more effort on my V3. One reason I went longer 27.5 wheeled slack bike with 2.6 (my Bronson V3) is to me it’s length (1252 mm wheelbase, wide bars, slack hta) gives me excellent high speed stability and is better at features at speed, the 2.6s give me nearly as good rollover as a 29er (only a half inch difference from a 29 x 2.3) and a little bit more cush and grip on the Appalachian rocks, yet the slightly smaller wheels and lesser bb drop and shorter chainstays maintains is poppiness and allows it to get through those tight, twisty moderate speed trails we have a lot of better than something like a true enduro sled. And since I’m not racing anymore not the speed is just for me and the thrill of it!!! I think we really are living in a golden age of mtbs right now and am just so glad I’m still young and healthy enough to be able to still do some of the features and go pretty hard and really get at least somewhat close to the max out of what these bikes have to give. It’s so cool that a rider really can select almost the perfect bike (or bikes) for his or her kind of riding, and even the one bike quiver bikes are so good at everything. Does require a bit more research on the rider’s part and knowledge prior to purchase, but that’s where vids like yours are so great at helping folks. and the reward for the effort is so sweet. Ride on!! 🤙🤘 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fX-rfJ6fps52kNU

[@christopherogley1714]

If your bikes got no pop it's too long ...how low the pivot is has no bearing on a hop whatsoever when you've got the front end up...your levers too long on your bottom bracket see saw mate

[@Dream-season]

This is the most helpful video I have ever watched … I’m so glad I did before I ordered my new bike … thanks guys!

[@Dream-season]

Quick update .. at 6 foot 1 inch I went from 487 reach to 465 reach and it completely changed the game … I ride every trail faster without even trying, jump easier, climb easier and manual easier … thanks again!!

[@SUPERFUDSTER]

This was a really cool video, you guys nailed it, I'm here in my office at my desk pausing your video while doing calculations with a pen and paper. HAHA! Good stuff, Frank M.

[@JoyOfBike]

I had fun getting my bikes on the footstools and discovering what was fitting. Shocked how good the DH bike fit!!!!

[@SUPERFUDSTER]

@@JoyOfBike Yeah i have to figure out a way to set something up like that to see how my new bike is going to fit, i'm praying its going to be sized right for me, im going to get a 45mm stem like you had suggested for me a while back, my bike was suppose to be here this saturday but the ships are delayed off shore, just waiting for their turn to unload. Freakin figures. lol!

[@andyfromthetrailside9496]

This is quite interesting. While your video was on I had to look up the sizing of my current enduro, a Rocky Mountain Slayer 2018. This bike has the Ride4 Flip Chip. I ride in 2 positions (out of 4 obviously), 2 being slightly slacker and 3 being slightly steeper. And your explanation matches my feelings on my bike. When in the steeper setup I'm exactly where I should be for Rad neutral. When I flip to the slacker setting my bike is a Rad minus. And it fits perfectly for the intended purpose. This video kinda verifies my conclusion regarding my bike setup. Awesome

[@eg-xf5ic]

I knew something was off with modern bike sizing! When I getting my first mtb they put me on xl based on my height and after a couple day I brought it back and told them I wanted a smaller one. I tried medium and large and the medium felt waaaaay more natural, made me feel like it was an extension of my body. Salesmen looked at me like I was insane.

[@eg-xf5ic]

@Kevin Cohan I'm about 6' as well. My newest bike is a large and fits me right. They really vary in size between manufacturers.

[@michaelsorrentino3346]

Same look from my bike salesman. I’m 6’ and fit a medium Specialized better. The salesman looked at me like I was crazy, but I’ve “learned” by purchasing bigger frames bikes in the past. When I picked up my bike I noticed a newbie about my size picking up his XL (same bike model). Yikes. I feel bad not saying anything but didn’t feel it was my place. He didn’t seem to notice me leaving with a medium.

[@michaelsorrentino3346]

Joy of Bike thanks for the great video and explanation!

[@mellows1783]

What a good channel to stumble upon. My LBS also likes to recommend one size too tall btw.

[@MegaPonyMagic]

I am 38 and am just looking into stepping into my first mountain bike . These sizing videos are a huge help . The whole sizing thing has confused and overwhelmed me for so long. I finally feel like i can get my head around it now. Thankyou gentlemen. 👍

[@laramiegrinde9246]

Guys, thank you for this video. I'm trying to decide what mountain bike to purchase as an entry-level but room to grow bike and I'm getting told all kinds of stories. I ride a little small women's hardtail around town and feel really nimble on it but these bike shop guys keep saying that I should be on a medium. Now I have numbers to use to explain what the small frames in fact DO fit me better! I love learning about this topic so thank you!!

[@PandoraArmy]

Makes so much sense to me. Thanks, guys! What the industry is trying to do, not so much, but I get it. Hence the phrase "it doesn't make make sense, but I get it" 😄

[@experiencewithmartin972]

I love your channel guys, thanks to you we were able to choose the right size bike for my girlfriend and also prevented me from selling my perfectly sized for me bike which i thought was small. But you taught me RAD properly !

[@casestudymtb]

I honestly don't understand how you guys consistently manage to provide the best information on youtube. Y'all are so rad I'm 5'11" and I love a 450 reach, and I swear if one more sales guy tells me I should be on a 470 I'm gonna loose it.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Thanks so much! Stick to your guns!!

[@archetypex65]

Öhlins 👍😎 I've always tended to opt for the smaller size. At 5'7.5", with traditional sizing, it puts me on a medium. All of my mountain bike frames are small & my road bikes have been between a 50cm & 52cm. You can make the micro adjustments with varying stem lengths, bar rise and fore-and-aft saddle adjustments. 👌

[@MrDistill]

Man I’m 5’6”. It took everything I have to walk out of a shop with a size small bike. It’s hard on the ego. But I’m glad I did. Thanks for this video. Only thing is I’d like to see closer how you are utilizing the step ladder for a pivot.

[@JoyOfBike]

Well done!!! Maybe we can do that in a upcoming video.

[@workhorsemtb7075]

@@JoyOfBike yes please

[@marcalvarez4890]

Small is fine. Bruce lee was 5.6 and 130 pounds. Didn't seem to hold him back any. You're buying a bike, not a dick. S M L. Stop worrying about a letter invented by a bike maker. Different manufacturers size differently. One makers small is another makers large. Im not even kidding. Your small bike could be a medium at many other companies. Its all made up....just like everything else in human society. Its all pretend.

[@skamarfire]

@@marcalvarez4890 wake up neo

[@skamarfire]

@@marcalvarez4890 Bruce Lee was made up also, that invalidates your whole argument

[@rodrigopages1054]

Just an update, after I watched the video the first time I freaked out thinking my bike was too big because you gave a reach of 446 or something for someone at 175. Then went on my chairs and tried the bike thing and bike fitted perfect with a 468 reach! But the key here was when I crunched the numbers for the RAD of the bike which ended at 793 mm and measuring my knuckles to the ground it’s 81 cm meaning im golden with my bike and just shows me how almost every ride im improving my PR on the downhills. Granted I did have to fit a shorter stem than the stock 50mm, 40mm rise bar cut to 780mm 👌🏽👌🏽 probably will go down to 770mm but not soon as im still testing that out !

[@Gregor.Forsyth]

Sam Hill also rides a Medium frame.

[@nigel739]

Thanks for explaining why I have always loved medium bikes when the size chart puts me in a large!

[@JoyOfBike]

Happy to help!

[@kaiul2967]

This is a great theory! I've always felt cramped on my bike with a reach of 432mm which is a Large and I'm 5'10". According to your equation I should more comfortably be around 445-454mm! I'll definitely keep this in mind on my next bike!

[@miguelfragoso7023]

What bike has a reach that short for a large?! Some Smalls nowadays are hanging around 440 reach

[@paulb9769]

Is that the reach to the centre of the head tube? What is the angle? I am the same height but my large Trek feels to big.

[@madbassist2004]

I have felt like this was true, glad to hear someone else say it.

[@JoyOfBike]

😎

[@servidig483]

THIS IS LIFE CHANGING

[@JoyOfBike]

Heck yeah!!! Bike = Life.

[@MikeesTexas]

Best video i've watched in ages WOW!!!! I'm 6' 1" and chose a L v4 ripley, based on the R.A.D. number Good job guys!

[@JoyOfBike]

This was a beast. Did my best but lots more to talk about on this subject. The first edit was 40 min!! Hahahaha.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Right on. Thank you!

[@dalebergkvist]

GOLD I TELL YOU! GOLD!

[@vortexkpl]

I am glad I bought a 2020 Canyon Neuron. I am 185 cm and the size large is RAD minus and feels perfect. I tried other bikes with 470mm + reaches and the front end felt sluggish in corners, so decided to stick with a bike with "old school geometry".

[@jonathan.lavoie]

Do steep seat angles make up for these longer reaches though? I’m looking at a Norco Torrent and at 178cm tall they put me in the middle of the size large range which has a 480 reach. Medium has 450 reach, but everyone says it will be cramped pedaling with the steep seat tube. No way for me to test ride them unfortunately. My new favorite mtb channel btw. Love the stoke, keep up the great work!

[@JoyOfBike]

If you spend most of your day in the saddle the longer bike will feel more comfortable. If you stand and do dynamic moves up and down hill the shorter bike is how I would go. A lot of people ride in circles in a parking lot to test a bike and so the bike with the proper reach actually feels too small in this sit and spin situation.

[@OneDayWeWillAllBeRiders]

Its so many of us out there who has oversized both frame ande wheel.. I am 180 cm and finally I ride Small bikes with 27...Thanks Joy of Bike!

[@jaymueller2418]

This is all really valid. I’ve always ridden a size large Specialized epic or Cannondale scalpel but the reach is crazy long on the new epics until my last one which I got in 2017. Now the reach is 460 and unless I get a stem the size of an ant’s pecker, a large would be too long. But on a medium I’ll have a TON of post showing and the drop between the saddle and the bars will be a lot which is crummy for seated handling and my back. Seems like a fail to me.

[@monkeymagik619]

I love these videos, no stupid numbers just the facts. I own an old boardman mtb that I love but it old and the wrong size, I’m watching these videos to choose my next bike and make the right decision.

[@76jazza]

Fantastic truth bomb content guys, I recently jumped on board with Lee's ride logic online material and it has been by far the best upgrade made to my bike/riding for years, much appreciated...

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Thank you!!

[@VeeVeeArcher]

Great video. A treat to see both you and Lee in a new vid. Kudos for sharing this important info with the youtube community.

[@JoyOfBike]

Thanks. Hope it’s helpful. We have had lots of off the record convo with shop owners and manufacturers and they know it’s an issue but they can’t afford to argue and lose a sale. As long as people are stoked on their bike I’m stoked.

[@telkwa]

This makes sense to me. I started mountain biking a year ago, and at 6.2.5", the LBS sized me into an XL. It feels too large. I plan to ride it for this season but size down in my next bike.

[@nategadow4482]

I’m 6’2” and my large feels great

[@NoToBigBro]

If your arms are 34 inches long, you may have to go to size medium based on this method.

[@redbullet1982]

The official reach ( to the center of the ball head) on my bike is 437,7. RAD calc gives me 445 (minus) or 455 (normal). Guestimating the distance to the center of the grips since it has a bit of a stem, I think I'm pretty spot on in sizing. Great job by my lbs. Kudos on the great channel, btw.

[@noahthegildedone5917]

Damn... Again, knocked it out of the park👌🏽♥️ thank you!

[@honcrf450]

This was super helpful. I bought a SC Nomad and kept thinking, this feels so much longer, I'm 6 feet and the shop said a large would be perfect. I kept feeling the weight on my hands like you guys described, my older Nomad felt so much better (shorter reach). My next bike will be purchased with much more knowledge, and I thank you for that.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Wonderful.

[@JoyOfBike]

Glad it was helpful!

[@N8MRN]

The RAD measurement seems like it may not factor in if i have short arms for my height. I'm 5'11" on a 460 hard tail,which seems good, but the stock stem is 60 mm, and my arms are not much longer than my 5'8" wife. i felt so stretched out that i asked the LBS to add a whole bunch of spacers under the stem. I'm trying to see if the stem (35-40 mm) or up sweep bar (20-30 deg) upgrade would be the best choice. I going to set up some RAD measurement device first, though, just to try. My last bike was a 2011 Norco Shore, no reach measurement, only theoretical top tube.

[@mtbboy1993]

Yea, reach is better to go by, then you can adjust the cockpit to fit with height, the rå dmeasurment is more to get setup the same with same reach and geo bike I guess. But u can have same rad number but tet have shorter reach taller bike or longer reach and lower cockpit. So make no sens eto go by that.

[@christopherogley1714]

Kudos for saying this...we can't ride em at any size...that my friends is a bold n true statement...but it's taller guys too...I'm 6,2 and it's a minefield... for most people a new bike is around 4 or 5 thousand pounds...it's not chump change is it for the average consumer...it means credit for a lot of people...it's almost built into the life of a bike the fact that the bikes change so much....good episode guys

[@JoyOfBike]

It’s true. This is the first time in history that even tall guys can wind up on bikes that are too big.

[@christopherogley1714]

@@JoyOfBike KUDOS ... you are an activist. In the best sense

[@nyrangers731]

I know this video is older and may not get a reply, but just to clarify: You are taking your height [cm] multiplied by 2.5 (or 2.45 if you want RAD negative) and you will get a number. For me it was, 421 for RAD negative - 430 for RAD neutral. You then take that number and compare it to the "reach" spec of the bike [in millimeters], correct? According to Giant's site: for the Talon 3 the medium frame reach is 418 mm, which is what I have. So technically my bike is 3 mm under RAD negative? It's funny, because I thought this bike frame was too big for me when I factored in that I have less than an inch of stand-over clearance and my seat post is in the lowest position so I was thinking of dropping down a size, but according to RAD that may make the reach spec even further away from my RAD negative? (The small frame Talon reach spec is 399 mm). Either bikes are confusing as hell or I misunderstood something somewhere. Maybe I'll try the marker method in your other video....

[@johnholmes2278]

ah - now that makes sense!

[@6jason6mehl6]

I'm really glad I saw this. I ordered a Rascal through a shop in Golden that will be here in June, but the shop (and many others) had talked me into a large. I'm 179cm. or 8'10.5". My instinct based on all of my past bikes was to get the medium but they used this "new geometry" to sell me a large. I'm going down to colorado springs as soon as this snow melts to rent both sizes and see what is right. I haven't even seen a rascal in person yet.

[@JoyOfBike]

It's longer than I would enjoy. I didn't realize how short I like my RAD until I started measuring them all. I KNOW i can make the Small Rascal work. I'm pretty sure I can make the M work. But the M is going to be flatter. Not sure which I will prefer yet. Keep me posted.

[@s0ckeyeus429]

Preach! I like my RAD ever so slightly small. Feels great on the trail or on the BMX track. P.S. Louisville, KY would be a perfect spot to work with Grow on a pump track too. 😉

[@JoyOfBike]

I've been surprised. For sure on the BMX I'm RAD minus but I kinda go that way on all my bikes. I thought I was a plus guy. Nope. Keep shredding!!!

[@vr7861]

Great video gentleman 👌 I love the way you articulate the relationship between personal biomechanics and the different aspects of bike size. Having a clear explanation like this is going to save me a lot of hassle and get me on that perfect bike so much sooner

[@JoyOfBike]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@dyzoly]

Wow, I thought I was the only one using rad measurements!

[@mtbdizz]

probably the most helpful bike fitting video I've seen! Thanks for making it easy and breaking it down! You have confirmed my suspicions that my current bike is too big. I relate perfectly to your YT story although I have stuck it out for 2 season now haha. I'll be looking to swap the frame now.

[@JoyOfBike]

The bike was so hot and new and hard to get that I sold it for list. Lost out on shipping and tax. Aaaarg.

[@gregoryvierra6114]

This video is extremely informative and I learned a ton. I’m 6’5” and recently bought an XXL YT Izzo because I thought at my height this was a no-brainer. The bike is amazing but the reach is definitely a little too long. I’m going to shorten the stem to a 35mm down from the stock 50mm - this will help but I should have bought the xL.

[@JoyOfBike]

Look into the pacenti stem too.

[@shwndh]

Interesting. I'm 6'2" and I was thinking the same way but opposite experience. I have an XT Giant Anthem (biggest size they make) and I've been thinking that the reach is a little too short. Out of the saddle sprinting leaves me feeling that I need more room in the cockpit to produce more power. Maybe I need a longer stem? Geometry and sizing is complicated for me.

[@johnvalderama522]

thanks for sharing it was a very informative how you discuss the good sizing and how to get the right size bike. Alex and Lee you guys are awesome. see you on your next vlog.

[@thomasgreis3713]

Hi guys, thanks for the video ! Very helpful. What I didn't fully understand was the RAD with the height in cm x ~2.5 vs the next item "know your reach". Is the RAD you calculated with the formula given the "reach" you speak about at 10:06 or sth. else? I had thought it being sth. different? Thanks a lot for your clarification.

[@KieranSmit]

I'm wondering the same thing! I've been calculating my "RAD" as height(cm) x 4.47 which lines up with the measurements involved (approx the 80-90cm range). But in this video they seem to be talking about "reach" but still calling it RAD?? height(cm) x 2.5 does seem to match closer to reach numbers (approx 40-50cm range) in my experience. Hope this helps, but hopefully someone else can clarify the references in the video?

[@nevets5920]

@@KieranSmit In bike geometry terminology "reach" is defined as the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the vertical plane of the top of the head tube. It is listed in every bike's geometry chart. So use the height in cm x2.5 calculation to estimate what "reach" number to look for when shopping for bikes.

[@KieranSmit]

@@nevets5920 yes I know that. But in this video they're calling it reach but using the technique to measure rad hence the confusion by OP above

[@vitog.3577]

Maybe it's just me being an engineer and too german, but I feel like it's too simple to reduce the whole geometry on just reach and nothing else. E.g. I'm currently riding a Bike that has (including stem) a reach of ~460 mm which would even be longer than the ideal reach based on the equation in the video. However, that makes it nimble and fun on jumps and pumptracks but in chunky, rough high speed sections I still feel a little "cramped" (in Terms of less room to maneuver with my hips and upper body without being too far forward or backward). Also there's so much more that defines the agility and leverage of a bike IMO like wheel base, standover height, HTA, relation of rear triangle to front triangle that you still have to try and find out what works best for you. Also different body relations make this whole formula somewhat misleading. If Alex would have 40 mm shorter arms the Bike in the example would fit him perfectly with the same body height. However I would strongly agree that longer isn't always the answer, but you have to have a look at all the numbers and most importantly find out what works best for you by testing and comparing. Everything else can just be inspiration. I also recommend to read some Interviews with Chris Porter (founder of geometron) who has a totally different approach. I won't say he's right with everything but most stuff makes just as much sense as the approach in the video which just brings me back to my point before. Cheers and thanks for the great vids.

[@JoyOfBike]

Thanks brother. Everything you bring up is accurate (except to say we are reducing the geometry down to one reach number.) The reach is the most reliable starting point. THAT is super important. We're trying to get people away from being sold a bike 40-80mm too long. A bike that can be made to fit with ANY amount of changes. Bikes are a huge investment and most people can't just go out and get another one. This is Joy of Bike. If a longer frame is bringing somebody joy I'm all for it. But instead, more often we see them bummed out. Unable to bunny hop. Unable to manual. Unable to get up ledges. And they have no idea why.

[@freeatlast1810]

Great answear. I'm 198cm and find it hard to find a comfey bike. 500mm reach is the maximum reach out there. Looking at Canyon Stoic and an Orbea

[@msch6524]

Most modern bikes feel long when you stand up but feel "ok" when you're seated. So what's the problem? Well if you size down according to the reach formula you might end up with a cramped feeling while seated :/

[@JoyOfBike]

@@msch6524 You are right. You will feel cramped. If the focus of your riding is seated then that’s totally fine. Most of the people on this channel are looking for bikes they can hop, jump, pump etc.

[@msch6524]

@@JoyOfBike Sure... But unless you shuttle 100% of the time or follow James Willsons Mantra don't sit down to spin, you will do some pedalling while seated ;) The question how compromised your postion will be...

[@brettneuberger6466]

Now that was nerdy! Great info. I just helped my son decide on a new Canyon Spectral. He’s 5’10.5” 180cm and went with a medium, which is what Canyon recommends. At 5’8,” they suggest I’d go with a small....which my ego would struggle with.

[@suspendedmofo]

sarcasm?

[@christopherogley1714]

It's zero outside..you guys crack me up...

[@sagadust-1079]

Thanks, this is the best sizing guide around. I just ordered my first mountain bike at 49 :). This video was a big help.

[@nicholaswilson2568]

Agree, totaly R.A.D. Sweet dudes. A Big 'Ay up', from the Yorkshire Dales, Uk.

[@Brian-xplor278]

Thanks so much guys! Trying not to second guess a big purchase since the industry is stretching things out, wondering if we should to? Went with what just felt right, and your sizing process provided some nice confirmation. Also, thank you for your time on these videos, really helping with some solid basics.

[@JoyOfBike]

Absolutely!

[@lifegoeson8078]

Hey Alex, Lee: I got to say that I had the fortune to watch this before my bike arrived and manage to order the shop to get me an L instead of an XL. I'm 6.3 and probably my sizing was good, but I follow your recommendation and get a RAD minus. I'm from Colombia and you inspire me to do this kind of content in Spanish. There aren't good videos like yours in my language. Cheers mate

[@JoyOfBike]

Thanks. Best of luck!!!

[@TheRicardoSanchez]

Hmmmm..... I'm inclined to call shenanigans on this, or at least point the difference one finds in two diff bikes with exact same reach. It's interesting that you point to the Capra. I have one. I'm 6-1 and got the XL - 485 reach. Feels like good fit in most ways. I recently demo'd a Norco Sight - L - also 485 reach. Felt horrible. Like was cramped and when I was riding off saddle it continually felt like I was going to go OTB. I was looking down at the bars. It was a real head scratcher until I considered the geo.... The geo matters. My Capra has like 1.5 deg steeper HA, so the bars on the slacker HA Sight are effectively closer when in same standing posture. Somehow both bikes have a 485 reach(their calc, not mine) but one is L and the other considered XL - these are obv arbitrary - but onus on the 485 and TOTALLY diff feel in the fit. No way would I consider riding the L Sight. But oddly most brands suggest I should be on their sub-485 reach size bike, when the 485 Capra with 65 deg HA feels very comfortable. I will concede that I haven't once gotten it into a manual - but have attributed that to the 440 CS and 1252 length and my general suckitude at manualling(I just don't have it in me). But it's a long-board of a bike. I didn't try manualling the Sight, so no idea there. The point is - and maybe you could do a followup on this video to talk thru this - geo matters and influences the RAD from bike to bike. RADs are not equal for all bikes. Feel free to aggressively and prejudicial debunk my personal experience with this. I'd rather have the truth and science to back it up. 🤘🏻

[@dzastafahrai]

My understanding is the slacker HA is the more backwards your bars go. Considering the same stem length

[@lee_likes_bikes]

Hi and thanks for posting! You’re right: Reach is just one variable, and head angle affects the length of your cockpit. We can only fit so much info into a short video. Another huge factor here is your handlebar. How far are your hands behind the stem clamp? That varies widely among bars, and it might be part of what you’re feeling. You can learn a lot more here: www.leelikesbikes.com/dynamic-mtb-fit

[@mtbboy1993]

@@dzastafahrai yea, but modern bikes have longer reach, short stem, so more room on the bike, more stable bike with direct steering i love it. 😏 I må on Geometron G1

[@justthetrailmtb]

This was great. I rolled my bars back a tad and now I’m rad. What a difference. I’m built like a frog. 5’9” with a 33” inseam and I’ve always bought bikes based on my legs while I’m stretched out over the top tube like I’m sleeping at my desk in algebra class.

[@dalejones4322]

I'm 5'10" and I'm so glad I went with the medium trek 6. Everyone tried to push me to the medium large but at the lowest seat position I could just barely get one toe on the ground and I felt like I was reaching too far forward for the bars. Salesmen ask your height and then point you to a bike and say that's what you need. I have one large bike that makes me sick that I'd didn't go with a smaller size but the salesman talk me into it. Live and learn

[@JoyOfBike]

So glad you liked it. Keep shredding.

[@deanemberley2333]

@@JoyOfBike I’m confused. I’m 5’ 11” and bought a Large but put a 10mm shorter stem on. This would affect RAD but not reach wouldn’t it?

[@JoyOfBike]

@@deanemberley2333 Reach is a frame measurement. Can't change it. Putting on a different stem/higher or lowere bars/more or less spacers can make the bike fit you better.

[@mtbcyclist]

Mind blown!!! Fantastic content. I have never really looked at reach that much and have traditionally looked at top tube length. Probably comes from the "roadie" in me as I do 50/50 road/mountain. Looking to upgrade my Santa Cruz 5010 Gen 1 bike this season and will be using "RAD" as my primary indicator of bike fit. Thanks a TON for this video. I am one of those nerds who compares tons of measurements between current bike and new bike on an excel spreadsheet so this video really speaks to me. Especially since I may purchase online again as bikes are hard to find with COVID.

[@JoyOfBike]

Hahahaha. I have a spreadsheet that runs a Pythagorean formula on the reach and stack. Give me that diagonal number I’m actually looking for.

[@loganmackay46]

Great video, but it left me a little confused. On your graphic, RAD is from crank to handlebar, but then you're talking about comparing it to reach. Seems like RAD would be the hypotenuse of Reach and Stack? And that makes sense to me because two bikes with the same reach but different stack would be different on your ladder test. Interested to hear what you think, thanks for all the great content!

[@lee_likes_bikes]

It’s not that simple. RAD also includes stem length, stem height, bar height, bar setback and the spacers under your stem. And: crank length, pedal thickness and shoe thickness are factors too. That’s why the ladder test is so great: it accounts for all of the variables.

[@PandoraArmy]

Carrying dem ladders to LBS's and they be like: Uhm, we dont have roof problem, bro, who called you in? 😄 As always, awesome content, guys 👍

[@sorrythanks666]

Just found ur channel. Love the info. Great editing. Super mellow and clear delivery. Thank you guys

[@brucewarren5248]

I''ll accept that frame size is probably the biggest factor in fit, but aren't stem length and bar angle and sweep also important to RAD?

[@suspendedmofo]

details you can change on a frame that fits.. but you cant unfcuk a wrong framesize with components.. cheerio

[@Tyler-gx3tw]

What an awesome instructional video with a lot of great humor. I just recently was looking at getting my first intro mountain bike for 90% commuting and dabbling a bit on trails with my son. I am 5'9" tall and was considering a M/L but went with a Medium instead. The bike shop salesperson really didn't seem to know much about this issue it seems but this makes perfect sense.

[@oliverpasztor788]

Something is off in this video and it's misleading. You use reach interchangeably with RAD (by the way that's a measurement that existed way before Lee even sat on a bike it's called BB to handlebar). Reach is strictly a frame measurement and it's not a perfect indicator of fit alone. If for example you make the head tube angle slacker, you are shortening RAD without touching the reach of the frame. RAD is also affected by BB drop, stem length, stack height (also affects reach) and so on. You have to look at the full picture not a single aspect of it.

[@amdmg7]

Nope, at least one thing proves that you are wrong. And this is the well-known theorem provided to us by great greek fellow named Pythagoras. Rad basically is a hypotenuse of your actual reach (with stem and handlebar) and stack (with stock and handlebar). By increasing one, you are decreasing another and vise versa. But RAD don't change. So RAD is independent of head tube angle. But reach and stack depend on it.

[@antonio_ponce]

I think it's better to measure rad from bb to top middle of head tube. Makes it simple without the variance of handlebars, neck, etc. When I search for rad, some companies use this, others are bb to handlebars. It's so confusing.

[@amdmg7]

@@antonio_ponce Wrong, because you are holding on grips, not head tube.

[@antonio_ponce]

@@amdmg7 thanks captain.

[@amdmg7]

@@antonio_ponce you're welcome!

[@kurt-kq7se]

you can get a guide as to the RAD of a frame if you know the stach and the reach using schoolboy maths ( stack x stack) + (reach x reach) then take the square root of that number and thats roughly the RAD of the frame. it doesnt factor in stem length or bar rise tho so it is an estimate only

[@adventuresofkbp6823]

Now to buy a couple of ladders....lol

[@lathamstylemtb]

Thanks for this video. I’m 6’3 so 190.5 cm and my reach values are 466/476/486. I have a size xl bike with a 485 mm reach with a 35 mm stem. I had recently changed my stem to a 50 mm to be in line with other brands xl with 500 mm reach. I did find it much harder to bunny hop and the bike felt off. So I just threw my 35 mm stem back on and rolled the bars back slightly to bring my grips a little closer. Can’t wait to try it this weekend. I’m currently looking at getting another bike this year and it’s making me consider a size Large which nowadays have reach values around my ideal 460-480. I can’t really make a xl 500 mm any shorter if it has a 35 mm stem but I could take a Large with 460 and throw on a 50 mm stem to hit 475. I can already see it being hard to explain to a bike shop that I want a size Large because at 6’3 I’m usually 2-3 inches taller then what the manufacturer recommends. Just have to tell them they aren’t RAD enough. 😜

[@JoyOfBike]

We just heard a similar story about a pro on a new prototype that was EVEN LONGER and he gave it back and said he couldn't hop it. It can be hard to go against the current but we do know some shops that want to suggest smaller bike but they're afraid to lose the sale. So some are secretly RAD. : )

[@1josefat]

I had a hard breakup with my Yeti for this reason

[@JoyOfBike]

That’s a bummer. Did you try a smaller stem?

[@1josefat]

@@JoyOfBike Yeah, I went to a 40mm which helped but was still coming back from long rides with sore hands and wrists, I felt like I needed to lift the front end too. I was just too far forward. Love the channel, nice work.

[@arrongarcia175]

I'm 5'8 135lbs and i got a medium large Trek Marlin 5. Feels pretty good to me

[@neocrashburn]

After watching your video I calculated my RAD reach vs. manufacturer's reach. According to your calculations I have a bigger bike, but when I ride it feels perfect. I then calculated my arm length googled arm length of men of my height and it turned out that I have longer arms. Can this be the reason why I feel RAD even it is longer according to your formula? How can one account for arm length in your formula? Don't say demo because these days we can't demo LOL.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

1) Unusual proportions do affect things, as you’ve noticed. I offer 1:1 consultations to help figure these things out. 2) It’s possible that your bike can fit you even better. It’s pretty much impossible to know the difference until you try.

[@dantepalazzo]

I’ve just moved from a L to a M/L (Trek), being 5’9” tall myself. Before deciding that, I was absolutely crazy and worried the M/L would not fit. I think I’ve watched all YT vids on the matter. You guys nailed it. And the M/L is working great for me. Even noticed I had no more numb hands, and that resonates perfectly with your weight on the hands theory. Congrats!

[@JoyOfBike]

🙏 Good news on the hands too!!!

[@eric3007]

5'9 is right in the middle of trek's size chart for ML... so why would you think it wouldn't fit?

[@dantepalazzo]

@@eric3007 Sorry, I think I messed up with de metric system conversion. I’m 5.9’ tall, or 5 feet and 11 inches. That’s right over the intersection of ML and L size recommendation.

[@jamessbca]

Oh man... I started developing numbness issues when riding my bike a lot a couple years ago. I've realized my 25 year old bike frame has cracked. It's time for a new bike. I'm 5'9" tall. When trying out my son's Medium Rockhopper, the reach feels short to me. I was basically likely riding my previous mountain bike a bit more like a road bike. I will fix that with my next new bike. It's time for medium for me...

[@dzastafahrai]

Why not to consider SAG, which changes your reach? If you would take fullsus and 30% SAG in the back effective reach will be smaller. Another consideration is stack and bar rise, I found manuals and bunny hops way easier on higher rise bars, which is also changes effective reach. I’m not that extended to perform handlebar pull. My bike has 440 reach and I’m 5’7 guy. Once 40mm rise bar installed it became perfect size.

[@rohrertech8882]

On a full sus, front and back should sag about the same, so reach shouldn't change with sag. Rad won't change at all regardless of sag.

[@lee_likes_bikes]

As has been said here, RAD stays constant at all points in suspension travel. Reach and stack change, but the change is so slight it can be ignored. Is your bike perfect for you? How do you know?

[@darrinkulyk9560]

My Upcoming RM CF BC Edition Will Be a 27.5 SM 😎