Just Intonation vs 12 Tone Equal Temperament

[@simonkormendy849]

What you're seeing on the Vectorscope screen is commonly known as Lissajous Figures, they are basically a visual representation of frequency ratios.

[@smwallace2368]

Thank you, Simon. It’s nice to read intelligent comments like yours.

[@sidharthghoshal]

Thanks for this comment, I learned something new :)! Question for you: At 0:38 there is a figure which appears to be parametrized by some parameter and changing in the plane. IT also seems like it could be the projection of a 3 dimensional shape that is rotating. Does every Lissajous figure have a "nice" paremtrization that has such a 3d projection interpretation as well???

[@tatyanaiysckaya7579]

Finally, just intervals. No talking. Thank you ❤️

[@entonal]

You're welcome :)

[@tatyanaiysckaya7579]

I have just understood that I unintentionally made a pun... Well, the point didn't change, hopefully

[@jswayne7546]

More just intervals: 5/4 major third 8/5 minor sixth 5/3 major sixth 9/8 or 10/9 major second 16/9 alternate minor seventh 15/8 major seventh 16/15 minor second 45/32 augmented fourth (tritone)

[@NinuRenee]

damn this is really calming to listen to, please do a longer loop of this!

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

The justly tuned intervals with this specific synth and pace sound so tranquil it's crazy

[@MichaelDarrow-tr1mn]

i like how the almost perfect fifth is a rotating lissajous curve

[@entonal]

it does look cool I agree!

[@kkngd391]

This is really beautiful in a way I can't describe

[@ferudunatakan]

Unity ❌ Perfect Unison ✅

[@mertatakan7591]

Unison ✅️ also

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

The first series of just intervals fr sounds like menu music or a theme for a perfect mathematical harmonious world

[@Jwellsuhhuh]

It would be nice if the author of the video could give us more detail on what this vector scope is showing, but this is what I can infer: - the fundamental frequency is panned to the right side and the interval frequency is panned to the left side. - the vector scope is rotated 90 degrees to what you would normally see in a DAW - a video explaining how vecotrscopes work: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZOrf6KlqtxrfJY

[@smwallace2368]

Thanks for the insight.

[@380stroker]

Basically everyone is playing out of tune. That's the nature of 12 tone equal temperament. It's mathematically impossible to play in tune when using 12 tone equal temperament, but it exists as a compromise.

[@poodledad806]

Not true. You can be tuned in 12 tone equal temperament, but on any fretless stringed instrument you can play in any tuning you like.

[@380stroker]

@PoodleDad A fretless instrument is not tempered, you absolute mong. A tempered guitar will have frets. You are confusing tuning and temperament.

[@Laubzeck]

@@poodledad806 and any wind instrument. Only piano and guitars have this problem. Any string players if playing without a piano will use pure harmony.

[@lisaayres-zp5jj]

12ed2 is in tune with itself, you don't need perfect consonances to be in tune. equal temperaments have lots of benefits over ji systems

[@g-ray7121]

you don't kboq "out of tune" until you've messed with 8edo

[@hansvos5897]

⚛

[@adolflazary5864]

Lindo. La Música en todo lo bello

[@theresa.y5221]

0:36

[@Lucas_1706]

I did that by putting a laser pointing at a mirror on a speaker

[@ferudunatakan]

9/5 ❌ 16/9 ✅

[@adamwilson8151]

Please explain?

[@lisaayres-zp5jj]

p*thagorean tuning 🤢 i enjoy all the fifth harmonic thank you very much

[@Mitchellcraft27]

I don’t understand what this is can someone explain please

[@interruptingPreempt]

It's also demonstrating subtle differences between Just Intonation and Equal Temperament. Just Intonation: An older style of tuning instruments. Built off of frequency ratios. Can be done with, say, strings of the same make and tension but with lengths of the ratios mentioned in the video. Eg: an octave would require a one string for one pitch, and a string half its length for the same pitch an octave above. Equal Temperament: The current norm for tuning instruments. Just intonation has some extremely dissonant harmonies that are effectively removed by use of this tuning system which averages the distance between notes instead. Cents are a measurement of pitch found in music. 100 cents = one half-step, such as C to C#.

[@Farvadude]

it's the reason why the 12 notes in music are the only twelve notes and there are no other notes, just infinite octaves up and down

[@NotThatKraken]

Vocalists, fretless strings players (like violins), and winds players use just tunings all the time. It’s a subconscious thing that comes from adjusting the pitch of every note to remove the beating that comes with playing out of tune. You don’t hear any harsh intervals in practice with good wind or strings ensembles because the notes in every chord are individually tuned. Just tuning is not very practical for pianos or fretted instruments like guitars, so they use equal temperament or other “well tempered” systems to minimize the dissonance over most chords. This is why even perfectly tuned pianos sound slightly dissonant compared to a good string quartet. The rotation of the figures in the video are visualizing that slightly out-of-tune sound that pianos and synthesizers typically have.

[@nacoran]

I don't like how this represents it. It makes it more complicated, visually, than it needs to be. Yes, it's pretty, but it doesn't really show you what is going on. So, here is the basics, from a physics perspective, without the math. Sound waves can interfere with each other. If you go to a beach and watch waves you'll see that they can interact in several ways. Sound basically works the same way. Pitch is determined by how fast the waves are coming (that is, how far they are spaced out between each other, not actual velocity, they all move at the speed of sound). Volume is determined by how high the waves are. Waves can collide in a way that their peaks and troughs add to each other, making the sound louder, or so they hit out of phase and cancel each other out. If the two waves aren't exactly the same pitch though, the peaks and troughs may sometimes line up in phase, but other times move out of phase. If you double the frequency of a sound you get an octave- the same note, just higher. Traditionally, we divide that octave into 12 parts, and we do that evenly (well, algorithmically, as a percentage of the difference). This gives us notes that all sound in tune to our ear when we play them. It's called Equal Temperament. The problem is this creates notes that don't always sound good next to each other. We our waves, if they aren't right on top of each other, to interfere in a really regular pattern. The easiest example is the octave... for every time a C3 cycles a C4 will cycle twice (because it's an octave higher). That creates a really regular pulse to it. Other simple ratios also work. There is a way to tune your instrument to make all the intervals sound really nice by using simpler ratios, but this makes the single notes sound out of tune when you play them. This is called Just Temperament. There are also numerous compromise tunings where they tweak it so the single notes don't sound too bad and the chords don't beat too much. There are actually some instruments, like the tremolo harmonica, that actually use two reeds tuned deliberately close but not quite the same so that they create a pulsing sound as the waves move in and out of phase with each other. An easy way to hear what waves really out of phase with each other is is to play two notes that are right next to each other on a piano. It will sound terrible. Usually that's avoided except specifically to create dissonance. Dissonance is basically the sound of two or more notes that are playing at the same time that aren't pulsing at a regular rate. If you look at an oscilloscope that would look like the sound spiking in volume up and down at an irregular rate, as opposed to just gently going up and down.

[@nacoran]

@@interruptingPreempt Backwards. Just will sound better when you are playing chords. Equal will sound better when you are playing melodies. (I'm a diatonic harmonica player, one of the few instruments that frequently comes from the factory in different temperament tunings. Harmonicas like the Hohner Golden Melody are in ET, while some of Hohner's older harmonicas came in Just -7 or Just -19 (they really sound rough on melodies.) Most modern harmonicas use a compromise tuning though. Historically, you'll hear about people saying that different keys sound different. That's because a lot of the old systems actually wouldn't use simple intervals note after note and octaves would either end up not being actual octaves, or sometimes different octaves would be tuned differently.

[@LucasPerson]

Is it just me or does just intonation feel relatively soulless, i see piano players who have very soulful and touching pieces, but no matter how good they are, when they play in just intonation that feeling of soul disappears

[@moontan91]

it is because our ears have been conditioned for centuries to hear impure intervals and 'beatings' produced by such impure intervals. personally, i like Just Intonation better.