Kaio-Ken V.S. Super Saiyan : (Can Kaio-Ken Be Just As Strong?)

[@qaamansland]

If you see this comment, please help me out and like it so it stands out. If you can, count how many times Rhymestyle and I said essentially in this video. HolyBallsOfSteel Noticed it lol

[@markmonth6631]

I counted 9 #SuperSaiyanPotato

[@swansonjoe7121]

Thank u! Thank u for making this vid!!

[@qaamansland]

The Beast both or individually?

[@markmonth6631]

Qaamans Land both

[@markmonth6631]

Qaamans Land 5 for u 4 for rhymestyle

[@perochialjoe]

Makes me wonder if a Saiyan could just constantly give himself zenkai boosts through overusing the Kaioken.

[@bruhhmoment2866]

Vegeta said in the Frieza Saga that self inflicted harm does not give zenkai boosts.

[@robertbuckley178]

Tavish DeGroot resulting in vegeta asking Krillin to blast a hole in vegetas chest

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

fegit nick In the end, though, if they both put their pride as warriors aside, Goku and Vegeta can just inflict injuries on each other, wait for their injuries to heal, and repeat the whole cycle again.

[@NFrk97]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache Goku thoroughly disapproves of self-destructive training methods.

[@darren2963]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache This is exactly what they already do. This is the training they did in preparation for androids, saiyans etc. saiyans benefit from their training more than humans.

[@RobiePAX]

Another reason why Goku used Super Kaio-Ken only in the Underworld was for the same reason why he managed to turn and train in SSJ3, because he was dead and that helped to surpass the limitations that with a normal body you normally couldn't. Also you guys are making it sound as if SSJ doesn't put a strain on the body. For example SSJ3 is nearly the same as Kaio-Ken in regard by how much it damages your body.

[@srinitaaigaura]

SSJ3 drains your energy - it is however remarkably resilient to damage. Kaioken wrecks your body.

[@JaxBlade]

*Super Saiyan God is a less Badass version of Kaio-ken :P*......or maybe and I'm just theorizing here, the Kais saw the Super Saiyan God form years ago on Vegeta and tried to mimic and develop a similar technique for future use even if it was for a short time and taxed the body tremendously with burning effects. The technique was successful and Kaio-ken came about but much much weaker, which can probably be taught to any race besides the Saiyans O_O.......or Toriyamas lazy and didnt want something flashy hahaha #headcanon

[@ScriptedSloth]

Kaioken is stonger than Super Saiyan transformations. Even figuring in the Super Saiyan God transformation, Kaioken is limited only by the durability of the one using it. Kaioken is a utility that multiplies your power, Super Saiyan (X) is a transformation that brings with it a limited boost in power. .. so if you (yes, you, with a very insignificant power level) were to summon Shenron, wish for immortality, and use Kaioken x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, you'd be stronger than Beerus and Goku in SSJG combined (even if only temporarily, it's a moot point when you could obliterate them in seconds with the power you attained). Or Buu, with his superior durability, using Kaioken to a greater effectiveness than Goku uses any three of his Super Saiyan transformation (not accounting for SSJG, since it's a different state entirely).

[@meowster2103]

lets be honest,.... even with immortality, if we are talking about any old joe, they simply can't do that. Their mind wouldn't grasp or understand such vast power and they certainly couldn't control it. I imagine there would be quite a training fest.

[@ScriptedSloth]

Meow ster You're not wrong, but the point is really that Kaioken is a more powerful tool than Super Saiyan transformations. It's essentially limitless given it multiplies base power.

[@meowster2103]

I think your looking at it wrong. Its still limited, just by different things. Hence your attempt to work around that limit by wishing for immortality. But theres nothing to stop another limit from getting in the way. Such as exploding yourself and being an immortal head for all enternity. oops... or perhaps the vast power wont kill you, but fry your brain. Immortal idiots roaming the galaxy for all eternity!... But that's just nitpicking details. My point is, if we are going to just wish these limits away then wishing the limits that stop super saiyan from being more powerful is also fair game. This logic doesn't support Kaoiken in being stronger, just more convenient in that we know what limits stand in our way. Of course, for all I know it could very well be more powerful. Im no expert on the matter- I just know that this isn't the reasoning to support it.

[@Bourikii2992]

Meow ster It wouldn't even destroy your body king kai describes it as your energy just being turned into another form of energy you would basically just completely cease to exist as a form and just become energy.

[@meowster2103]

Con Cahill im not sure I follow... you contradicted yourself there.

[@lieutenantnomad9198]

He handled KaiokenX10 pretty easily by the Namick saga, so by the Buu sage, he should be able tp do X100 fairly easily.

[@TheShockVox]

But what would be the point when he has the ability to go SS? And who's to say he'd be able to do both or if doing it wouldn't kill him? The easiest answer, is that the technique is just obsolete when SS gives him a boost without the risk to his body.

[@kywright5417]

true

[@thefirebrothers1941]

Have to dis agree

[@zeldededeab9966]

+Lieutenant Nomad It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that as Goku's base power grows the number of multiples he is able to perform in an attack will hit some sort of peak and then diminish in returns. I mean it would be completely unbalanced to have a hypothetical SSGSS3+KaiokenX10000. Nothing would ever stand a chance. Not even Chuck Norris.

[@gabenewell7773]

+Mike Hammond Chuck Norris would analy rape Goku

[@jurrell1986]

you wanna know why we have to question all this stuff? because tori is always forgetting shit, he is his own plot hole. he forgot too much shit, where in turn makes us question this stuff and try to explain it. i have a feeling he forgot about kaioken once he made ssj, im sure a ssj kaioken is stressful but im sure a ssj kaioken times 2 wouldnt hurt and it would have won a lot of fights for goku. tori just made the series up as he went along. its a great show and everything but i wish it had more consistency. while small these little things cause big fights in the dbz community.

[@jurrell1986]

Tiana Harrington he forgot way more, could you imagine how kaioken would helped against the bad guys

[@Isaiah_McIntosh]

+jurrell hudson or why cell didn't use it

[@yeezyspphard]

+jurrell hudson sooooo true

[@sayanorasonic]

Kaioken would ruin the series

[@sayanorasonic]

If goku tries to go to kaioken x10 while in super saiyan,he would kill cell immediately,same goes for buu,ssj2+kaioken x10 the series would end really boring

[@jamcalx]

kaio-ken is a power up, burning his ki in a more volatile form to increase his power at a price. like firestorm the eventually burns itself out. think guy and lee's 8 gates. super saiyan is a transformation, mastering ones ki in both generation, control, and usage. kind of like a small self sustaining star becoming greater with each level. That's my theory.

[@trev2002k]

BUT THAT'S JUST A THEORY!!!! A DRAGON BALL Z THEORY!!! THANKS FOR READING!

[@jamcalx]

;-)

[@MindAndMyth]

yea but by the end of DBZ he should be able to do like atleast kaioken x10 without even feeling it.

[@jamcalx]

Rising_Star_ once or twice he went x20 with out major harm.

[@MindAndMyth]

jamcalx he sustained kaioken x20 during almost the entire battle against frieza.

[@josephjohnson8212]

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X10 confirmed in canon

[@Official_kgold]

Yea in db super

[@yaboi1244]

Yup

[@reliablepayload3209]

Yea then gokus ki began to act crazy because of such a strain on his body

[@anonymousguy572]

Look at the date of this video. 2015. :/_

[@brookefoxie9610]

This video is older than Dragon Ball Super

[@SilverDono]

Kaioken is an attack Super Syian is a form cant be compared beside every time Goku use Kaioken he burn KI unlike Super Syian that increase his KI

[@blackbroly]

Kaioken is not an attack its just like ssj but you can't sustain it for long Kaioken boost your power up an enhances all of your abilities like ssj its not a beam blast or a spirit bomb

[@SilverDono]

Brandon Sapp it is an attack as stated in the manga and early in the anime, when Goku used it he was saying Kaioken ATTACK, and in his fight with Friza he didnt stay in his Kaioken form, he was just using it to reduce the damage he was taking from Friza its just the Kaioken is a way to enhance your power and speed by burning more KI and stamina for a short time, but Goku cant stay in that form for a long time becuase it burn KI like crazy.

[@blackbroly]

Firas Silver you are absolutely right my bad cant believe I forgot tht

[@SilverDono]

SFH mjr omni good point, never thought of that before!!

[@colinwalker9892]

Firas Silver clap clap clap clap clap

[@jakehawkins7890]

Super Sayian God super Sayian kaio-ken×10 is a thing now

[@cantwaittogoslashing8025]

How about super Saiyan God super Saiyan 4 Kaioken x999999999 gogeta

[@jakehawkins7890]

+Forbes Hurtaud he would die instantly from the stress of kaio-ken ×9999999999

[@brookefoxie9610]

And he would die from the lack of cannon

[@tog6185]

yea the lack of canon and the insane amount of stress he would get from using a completely stupid and retarded fan transformation would kill him instantly

[@tusezrus7731]

I've always wondered, 'why not SSJGSSJ kaioken x20?' I guess that would put too much stress on the body tho

[@Iruka1991]

Yeah turns out that the Saiyans had like their own version of the kaio ken and that's the several levels of the SSJ state. We saw up to 4 in the anime and up to three on the manga. I still would've love to see any other Z warrior use it during the Cell saga. I mean, at some point most of them reach a power level that's bigger than Freezers so it meants they reached a power of 120 millions. Bust that shit with a Kaio ken and you have 240 with just the first state of kaio ken. If they could go up to ten they could've match up against the cell Jr for at least some minutes. Perhaps Krillin and Yamcha weren't able to learn it becouse they were not gifted enough or they can master it up to 10 or more but Ten shin han and Piccolo should've been more than capable to master it up to lv 20 or close. Imagine how badass would've been for Ten to use a Kaio ken times 20 to hold back semi perfect Cell to give some time for 18 to scape. #superSaiyanPotato

[@timetraveler5547]

marcos bustos that would have been awesome, and they would have been able to go far over 10 by that time since nearly if not every Z fighter had a powerlevel of over 3 million, which was the power level of Goku during his fight with Frieza and he could use 10 effortlessly, and use 20. So they would have been able to fight the Cell Jr's. Also Tien vs 2nd form Cell with Kaoiken would have been so sick.

[@Iruka1991]

Son Dragneel I know, there could've been so much potential, sadly it was a time when Toriyama was "forced" to keep doing dragon ball z when he originally wanted it to end in Freezer. That's why we have so many holes in the plots.

[@Shouxiao]

I figure at most Goku could be in SSJ1-3 and use Kaio Ken for a temporary power boost that last an attack or two but I do not see him sustaining both at the same time. Oh and for the lols what if Goku went SSJ God and use Kaio Ken?

[@qaamansland]

Ohh my!

[@dadgavv6807]

Super saiyan God is basically a very very powerful kioken think about it combining with the Battle of the Gods movie

[@netanyelrucker]

Goku would just be a red blur

[@livewire7116]

Super Saiyan God + Kaioken = A seriously pissed off King Kai,because SSJ God is a rip off. Qaamans Land I now verify that Kaioken is stronger, because you saw how it changed its name to "Super Saiyan God" and you can't ignore those results.

[@Mysticfateee]

well damn i just made a comment saying about goku using kaioken in ssjg form only to scroll down and see this xD guess you beat me to it haha

[@Saimeren]

So.. you keep saying that they never use Kaio-ken, and not to go over certain limits because it puts stress on the body Ect... SUPER SAIYAN FORM DOES THE EXACT SAME THING!!! Don't you remember when Gohan was trying to turn Super Saiyan? He was super tired after trying, and both Goku, and Gohan were training in their Super Saiyan forms to try to stay Super Saiyan all the time to get used to the stress on the body. Once they got used to the stress on their body, and were essentially "Immune" to the effects of the transformation, everything was good, and they could go in and out of the form instantly. Much could be said for the Kaio-ken as well. If you train to get used to the stress it has on the body, I wouldn't see any reason you couldn't go X10,000.

[@remixmaster5000]

Because too much strain can kill you while super Saiyan does less strain for more power

[@zaberfang]

Kaio-ken will eventually kill the user if it's used too much, SSJ mode doesn't. Goku isn't that much of a deathseeker.

[@supoa9489]

It's two completely different forms kaio-ken you feel the strain instantly where as Super sayain takes a long period of time before you start feeling the effects

[@noire.blackheart]

Yeah... people keep thinking Kaio-ken is transformation because it's used as a transformation in the games for gameplay purposes. Kaio-ken is a technique. Super Saiyan is a transformation. It's like saying who's stronger: Charmander when it uses swords dance or Charizard. Really dumb comparison in my opinion and anybody saying Kaio-ken is stronger is clearly an idiot.

[@MariusThePaladin]

Saimeren Kio-ken isn't a transformation. It's a power boost tehcnique that burnt yourself out, while SSJ is something that make you become stronger, and constantly in a battle ready state.

[@AcesHight]

Look guys, keep it in mind please, Kaio-Ken can reach the SSJ level, but SSJ would stay always over paralell with the Kaio-Ken, Goku used 20x Kaio-Ken against Frieza and it did somethings, but Frieza was much stronger in comparation, untill goku turned into SSJ, Frieza was forced to fight with his whole power, based around that, we can asure that the Kaio-Ken potential is clrearly under SSJ far far away....and it's pretty senseless to master the Kaio-Ken if Goku has the SSJ, it would be interesting for Krillin, Ten or Yamcha , but senseless for Goku.

[@hippydragonnslayerxdlmaohi3921]

kaioken x25 is strong as ssj

[@EXILEDTM]

Unless theres Some Kaioken beyond x20, and goku is the only one who uses it, then no, plain and simple. Kaioken has gone up to a x20 multiplier of the base of the user. The Super Saiyan form Starts at x50 and moves on to x200 to x400 to x10000. The power of the Super Saiyan all depends on how powerful the base form of the user is.

[@EXILEDTM]

And the reason Kaioken cant top that is because nothing beyond x20 exists.

[@Sable_Houjuu]

ExiledEditZ™ Actually, Goku in the otherworld tournament used a Super-Kaioken. The thing is though, if he did this outside of the otherworld, his body would be torn apart by the power, similar to how vegeta tore his body apart by just letting all of his ki into the atmosphere in a explosion.

[@EXILEDTM]

Dakota Poole Yes He used a super kaioken....but my point still stands lol. The kaioken itself is not what is strong, its just a double multiplication of his power. His power is multiplied with super saiyan, then he further increases it by using a Kaioken. And its a commonly used myth that "Oh other world allows you to do stuff you cant do in the living world." Not true. The same effect stands anywhere, in Any dimension.

[@Sable_Houjuu]

ExiledEditZ™ I know your point still stands, i was just explaining that there was a kaioken stronger than x20, i didn't specifically say it was beyond x20.

[@EXILEDTM]

SomethinDwnUrPantss I got It from one of the power things Toriyama put out. SSJ Is x50, Ascended SSJ Is x100, SSJ2 x200 and as listed before etcc etc And SSJ God Is 10,000.

[@ChaoticWolf0100]

What if unlocking the 8th gate in Naruto is actually Kaioken x3

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

+ChaoticWolf0100 It's essentially the same. As it is obviously based on the same idea. Much like Haki in One Piece. Enhancing your body with the power of your will.

[@bugattispeed8072]

fgregerfeaxcwfeffece I think eight gates is x 50

[@tigerdai4449]

8 gates is said to be 100x 7 gate

[@ayogoeshype]

When you hear that intro you know its Qaamans prime

[@DinoThugg]

Multiplies are bullshit - Qaaman

[@qaamansland]

TGG18S Totally but for argumentative purposes It's still a great discussion

[@qaamansland]

Because its hard to believe a super saiyan state that can vary between fighters can multiply by exact amounts as super saiyan is a biological state

[@SaiyanZ3]

Qaamans Land It's not only that man, its bs that a Super Saiyan 2 is only twice as strong as a regular SSJ XD. I personally don't give much credence to the SSJ2 or SSJ3 multipliers

[@SaiyanZ3]

SomethinDwnUrPantss Not really. You'd have to believe that 2 SSj Gohan's would've been enough to kill Cell during the Cell Games, if you think SSj2 is twice as strong as SSj1.

[@SaiyanZ3]

SomethinDwnUrPantss Well, thinking that 2 SSj Gohans can overtake Cell is a stretch. To me at least

[@bahadmour9644]

the super kaio-ken is like the gate of death from naruto !

[@CrashSable]

I thought the entire point of that scene in the Frieza fight where King Kai said Goku was constantly using Kaio-Ken in such small bursts that nobody noticed was essentially Toriyama saying "I'm not mentioning Kaio-Ken anymore. Just accept that Goku's mastery of it is such that he is using it in every fight without you noticing." I don't know if that scene was in the manga or not, but that's how I interpreted the scene.

[@michaelthegreat1]

your mic or makes me feel nauseated like your voice goes from one ear to the other and woah does it make me feel dizzy

[@qaamansland]

Michael Chen how so?

[@michaelthegreat1]

Qaamans Land idk around 0:30 ish it goes loud soft like loud left ear then right ear then loud again left and so on

[@l-crazy-l]

Yea it do lol 😄

[@shiro5157]

Michael Chen IKR

[@ErnieJ89]

Its a strange ringing sensation. Could be from a smart phone speaker

[@Rags2Roses]

Fun fact kaioken isn't a short boost or a temporary boost. It can last a long time. so long as you don't go beyond what your limit is, you can actually stay in Kaioken for a very long time example when Goku was fighting frieza said I'll use 50% of my power, he was fighting and Kaioken times 20 for most of the time he was getting his ass whooped. As stated by king Kai. Of her was at a comfortable 20 times in the namek saga, he should definitely be at 50 times by the end of series if not more.

[@songohantheultimatesupersa1779]

50 times kaioken would basicly be the same strength as ssj

[@VitalSigns1288]

I thought that ever since the Namek/Freiza saga Goku was able to use his kaioken without saying it out loud like he did when fighting Vegeta.

[@pokemon4159]

How much freakin' times did u say "essentially"? Is that like ur favorite word?

[@qaamansland]

essentially

[@pokemon4159]

Qaamans Land essentially

[@EmperorDraconis]

Qaamans Land not the fake one

[@kreyes8605]

Why so salty?

[@Krokodilius]

you people realize he can do both, right? he uses a super kaioken vs pikkon.

[@Tbonedoesfsx]

That was filler

[@Krokodilius]

what the ultimate fuck does that matter?

[@Tbonedoesfsx]

ryan phillips it isn't essintially cannon toriyama never wrote it

[@Krokodilius]

not this stupid fucking cannon shit again....you people become brainwashed with that like some religious cult. it's in the show, saw it happen, enjoyed it. spoiler: GT also happened.

[@Tbonedoesfsx]

ryan phillips I hate when people say things aren't cannon, but its filler never actually happened in the manga. So I am right. Who knows maybe toriyama will write super kaioken in super

[@Nephibis]

I think the battle against frieza answers this question. When Yamcha asked King Kai why goku wasn't using kaio-ken King Kai replied that he was using it the whole fight. The increase in power level is massive. King Kai told Goku not to go past a certain level of Kaio-Ken, because you trade your physical being for ki energy. Think of it in a way as Full Metal Alchemist. You aren't unleashing stored energy or anything. You are litterally converting your physical being into energy. No matter how much you train you won't be able to take kaio-ken beyond a certain point unless you have the ability to convert something into your physical form at a faster rate than you are being converted into energy.

[@Trist_Playz]

#supersaiyanpotato

[@christinaferguson3451]

Hi gamzee

[@Trist_Playz]

hello

[@christinaferguson3451]

GaMzEe MaKaRa Karkat miss you

[@Trist_Playz]

hmm?

[@christinaferguson3451]

GaMzEe MaKaRa Wyd

[@jamimakinen4378]

to people who don't want to watch the video/have time, this is the answer to the title. Yes, Kaio-Ken can be as strong, but it will give a lot more stress to the body, because you'd have to do Kaio-Ken x50 to be as strong as super saiyan

[@water-hazard7506]

thx

[@ogaimon3380]

but everyone can use kaioken and ssj is a sayajin transformation,mean kaioken is way better, the good thing to know is that kaioken X time your max number after u boost

[@khulmach9662]

Pretty Sure Goku went Kaio-Ken x 20 Kamahamaha on Freeze and was fine. Kaio-Ken X50-60 is something he should be able to handle now

[@ludensmolato4769]

+Khul Dycane well I'm sure kaioken puts way more stress when it's x50 and he doesn't need kaioken x50 when he already has super Saiyan

[@khulmach9662]

Balls Deep69​ Yes, true but as of now the x50-75 problem has a stress level around Kioken x2 when he use first. Plus Kioken X everything equally(I think) while Super Saiyanjin likely gives a large increase to stats but not not a equally. Ssj gives X50 power increase but not sure if all areas are times 50. Probably is though, otherwise that would be stupid.

[@megaofir1]

Hey Qaaman, I Have A Question. Now that we know from DB Super that the SSG form can heal Goku's body, do you think Goku can use the Kaio-Ken in SSG? The Kaio-Ken is A technique and not a transformation so I thing Goku should be able to use it in SSG (WITHOUT it wrecking his body). If Super is like Battle Of God and Goku's full power made Beers use 70% of his full power, wouldn't Goku multiplying his power be stronger than Beerus?

[@brian5o4]

Ofir Stiber beerus does alot of lying... trust me😂

[@hippydragonnslayerxdlmaohi3921]

he could have gotten kaioken x100 and if he went ssj with kaioken his body would explode because ssj is made of rage and kaioken to and ssj isnt compatible with kaioken so that wouldnt work if he was ssjg maybe kaio x1000 but beerus was nowhere near using even 25%

[@Ninetails2000]

Kaio Ken, to me, has greater potential than a Super Saiyan, but it's not meant to replace it. It's main use throughout the series is to supplement a person's power without having to use transformations. Unlike the Super Saiyan transformation which is sustainable for long periods of time but tends to have hard caps on the power potential depending on the level, Kaio Ken is more flexible, able to use multiplications limited only by the user's body. The trade-off is that it's a lot more damaging and stressful to sustain in higher multiplications. The Kaio Ken is used best the way it was used during the Freeza saga: As a brief flash of power, used to enhance singular attacks. I'm entirely sure Goku could stack the Kaio Ken on top of the Super Sayain transformation, but it'd still be wise to use it as a brief status buff instead of a stacked transformation. Basically the Kaio Ken is best used as a blink-and-you'll-miss-it status buff, not as a sustained transformation. If Super Saiyan were equal to adding a more beefy engine into a car, the Kaio Ken would be adding nitro into a weaker engine to achieve the same results. It's easier to pull off and usually costs less, but as a trade-off, it's incredibly dangerous to do and can backfire on you and completely blow the engine(Or, in the Kaio ken's case, completely thrash a person's body and possibly kill them.)

[@sogok00]

What if Piccolo learnt Kaioken?? his body can increase so he could handle X100000 kaioken. He could be the strongest nigga in the universe :D.

[@AaronBrown2015]

I know this has nothing to do with this video, but has any of you DBZ fans noticed that even in Battle of Gods humans like Bulma and the Ox King could keep up with how fast Goku and Beerus were going while fighting? I remember Krillin having a hard time keeping his eyes on the fight with Vegeta and Goku -- Gohan having trouble keeping up with the saibamen and Yamcha, but now humans can keep up with SS Goku, etc? Cmon.

[@1TakoyakiStore]

With the Super Saiyan transformation the body actually changes to be able to handle more power. Kaio-ken on the otherhand is a way of stuffing more energy into your body for you to use. However thanks to the Saiyan biology of increasing in power after being damaged opens the door wide open. Unless kaio-ken can only be used when the user of the technique is over, i.e., 210% of their normal energy output the amount of damage it can cause would actually benefit saiyans.

[@Zilege]

#supersaiyanpotato! thanks for breaking that down for me. I have always wondered why the Kaio Ken got used less especially since he could use it as Super Saiyan but when you put it all that way, it DOES make sense. :)

[@CrescentCrusader99]

*Just in case others are wondering about the SSJ (Super Saiyan) multipliers*: Super Saiyan 1 = Base Form × 50 Super Saiyan 2 = Base Form × 100 Super Saiyan 3 = Base Form × 400 *Non canon*: Super Saiyan 4 = Base Form × 4,000 *Or you could just use this method*: Base Form × 50 = *SSJ1* × 2 = *SSJ2* × 4 = *SSJ3* × 10 = *SSJ4* In other words ---> 50 × 2 × 4 × 10 *By the way, the Great Ape transformation is*: Base Form × 10

[@phantasmicyouth]

I hope one of these days I can get a proper mic, and work on this kind of thing with you. I consider myself a pretty avid officionado when it comes to Dragon Ball, and I'd love to offer some input where available.

[@chefoli2130]

0:12 SSF2?!! That's my childhood!!! 🔥

[@joshuaosei5628]

Think of Kao-Ken as Gear 2nd. Luffy can't keep it active for long and it causes strain on his body. When he forced it fighting Lucci he was rendered immobile.

[@gaukaiser]

My guess is that after becoming a super saiyan goku stopped training the kaioken, because it is much more strain on his body compared to his super saiyan form. He probably could still use it beyond x20, but it is probably too much for his body in combination with ssj to handle (and yes, i know in dragon ball super he used it, but I mean the dragonball Z era)

[@cooler1339]

My guess would be that SSJ and Kaio-Ken are not compatible because they both amplify power. Whatever power it takes to maintain a SSJ state probably does not allow Kaio-Ken to be used. Another reason may be that since SSJ already added like x50, adding another x20 on top of that to become x70 isn't as much as an upgrade anymore. Then when you factor in SSJ2&3 it becomes even less relevant. Third, maybe amplifying SSJ energy is just way more risky because of the amount of energy? I have no idea.

[@tman229]

I believe that Kaioken can definitely be more efficient with training and it did kind of did get lost in the plot of things. I'm not quite sure if this was in the manga but, when Yamcha said that Goku hasn't use Kaioken yet (when Freiza powered up to 50%), King Kai said that Goku had been using it the whole time against freiza. Now going by that, it's pretty safe to assume that Goku was not only using Kaioken for a pretty good amount of time but also that he was extremely relaxed in that form. So this pretty much goes to the lost in plot part..... If Goku was as relax in going X20 against Freiza then why didn't he turn it up a couple more? It's also safe to assume that Goku was pretty relaxed in Kaioken x1 when he used it on Nappa. I believe if Goku (or anyone) had of trained extensively and tried to stay in that form (like Goku and Gohan did) then it would of ended with great results. I'm not saying stay in maximum kaioken form that would destroy the body but hold it to a point where you get a little bit of strain but isn't bad enough to destroy the body. Because think about it. Goku and Gohan didn't stay in USSJ form but regular SSJ where it did not take a large toll of their ki.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

I always saw Super Saiyan as not being a drain on the fighter in the same way as Kaioken. Goku fought Frieza as Super Saiyan for an extended period of time and barely seemed worn out. In my mind Super Saiyan is a transformation that puts no additional strain on the user, but allows them to access more power at no greater drain or loss than if they remained in base. I don't recall any time it was stated that Super Saiyan by itself drains the user.

[@Aristoper]

Kaio-Ken is like harnessing your adrenaline for a short duration while Super Saiyen is like strength training once you can lift a certain amount of weight it becomes more trivial to do so with more repetitions. The former is a better last resort survival technique, but the latter more sustainable so generally superior in most fights. The Pikkon highlights how a well timed Kaio-Ken can be a tactically superior advantage though.

[@no-relic]

Well you could use Kaio-Ken to surpass your current limitations, so if you didn't have access to SS2, then using Kaio-Ken might be viable. Similarly, it could be used in SS3. The ideal time for this I think would be during a beam struggle when it's all about pure power basically. It would give you a quick burst of power to overtake an enemy who quite possibly could not move to escape.

[@MariusThePaladin]

That filler fight with Paikon, didn't someone said after Goku used super kaio ken that it's actually pointlesss since he can go super saiyan, but he did it just to show respect to Kaioh, his old master.

[@babyvaso3855]

If Goku trained his body to easily sustain the Super Saiyan form as seen during the Cell Game Saga could he possibly train his body to sustain further transformations? Example being when he's Super Saiyan 4 he's always in that form. Could he then train his body to more easily sustain Kaio-Ken? At his current level being in Kaio-Ken x3 shouldn't be too difficult for him if he'd even feel it at that point. Judging from the power level list Qaaman reviewed awhile back the power levels aren't too far apart so x2 would be an enormous boost.

[@chajus1]

Didn't Krillin or Yamucha asked King Kai "Why doesn't Goku use Kaio Ken?" to which Kai responded "he is has mastered it to such degree that he is using it nearly always", he even is depicted whilst fighting (getting his ass kicked) Freeza turning red from time to time. I always assumed that that is why, they stopped drawing red cos he is always using it, and well that is why he is able to train so fast or so little compared to Vegita, cos he is training in normal mode then doubling or multiplying it.

[@ManintheArmor]

Kaio-Ken could likely be multiplied to the point of rivaling the power level of a Super Saiyan, but it would prove inefficient, much like Super Saiyan 1.5 and Super Saiyan 3. Still, it'd prove useful for non-Saiyans in need of a power boost. Now I'm curious if there's a way to mix Kaio-Ken with God Ki.

[@Mr.Manito]

Something i thought about If goku was already using kaio ken x20 against freeza, then transfomed into super saiyan, he was techinically using Super kaio ken x20 So it brings us back to why doesnt he do it more often

[@DBZHGWgamer]

As i remember, SSJ also put a ton of stress on your body. Thats why goku said no one could go SSJ 3 if they were alive in the Majin buu saga because of how much power was needed and how stressful it was. Just not as stressful as Kaio-Ken.

[@PirateJohnson]

It's like Piccolo's size change (Lord Slug used it too), weakness to whistling or extending limb ability. AT just DGAF.!. Using Kaio-Ken as any level should cause Goku to jump up a SS level automatically as he tires out or let him experience that level for training purposes until he can truly ascend and master it. It would make since if you consider Goku's SS3 use after he KK's as a SS2 against Pikkon.

[@ruthherrera1463]

I forgot this video wasn't made when Super out, cause Goku when SSG Blue with Kaioken x10, which is similar to using a SSJ3 with a kaioken boost of 2 O_o

[@animationcaptain]

In the manga, specifically the Frieza saga, it says specifically while fighting Frieza he was using the Kaio-ken x10 the entire time he was fighting Frieza. From the way King-kai says it, it's assumed he was sustaining Kaio-ken x10 the entire time. When Goku went SSJ it's a safe assumption that the SSJ form boosted his kaio-ken x10 form as well. So you could say perhaps that in the fight against Frieza, Goku's power was essentially boosted to x60 levels.

[@breka3482]

Mastered ss- is the mastery of the Super Saiyan form, completely unrelated to the 2nd and 3rd Grade Super Saiyan stages of the transformation. The form is the Super Saiyan state trained into a "natural" form, and removes the agitation that is present in the original Super Saiyan form, also allowing the Saiyan to easier manipulate their ki in the form and utilize it more efficiently, minimizing strain. The idea is thought up by Goku, who insists he and Gohan use it, which they do to great success. The term "Full-Power Super Saiyan" was first created in the Daizenshuu guidebooks to differentiate it from the normal Super Saiyan form; in the actual series, it has never been referred to as such.

[@SoulmateSociety1]

pre-HTC the SSJ-1 form was draining a lot of energy. when goku and gohan went into the HTC they figured it's better to learn to control the SSJ-1 form instead of going into higher forms. the reason for that was because of the energy drain, if they have perfect control of the SSJ-1 form the drain will be nothing or minimal. in that case it's definitely possible for them to use SSJ and kaioken at the same time and gain an advantage with it just like normal kaioken gave goku the advantage when fighting Vegeta and Nappa

[@ManofChrist101]

Kaioken and SSJ are just plot devices to give the protagonist the upper hand in an otherwise hopeless situation. Kaioken's time limit wont matter if you multiply the power level enough to one-shot the opponent, which shouldn't be too hard in a fictional universe where fights take place faster than the speed of sound.

[@johnbaker5299]

I just want to ask what would happen in other world after Goku died if his body was destroyed there? If nothing bad he could test how far his body could take Kaioken.

[@santerihyvarinen5851]

+John Baker Goku said in buu saga when krillin fought in otherworld with buu that if you die again in other world your whole existence would be removed and there is no way help you after that

[@TheOnlyLunaKage]

#SuperSaiyanPotato Anyway, the discussion was comparing SSJ to Kaioken, and it's obvious that SSJ is more efficient. However, Humans, and other races can't go SSJ, so I think if they actually were willing to do anything to catch up to the Saiyans, then making an effort to master the Kaioken enough to take it to x50, x100, x400 to match SSJ1, SSJ2, and SSJ3 would be worth it. I mean, you brought up how Goku was able to use Kaioken x20 against Frieza, but you didn't mention how it wasn't destroying his body like Kaioken x4 did when he fought Vegeta. This shows that it is indeed possible to Ascend through the Kaioken ranks enough to where previous ranks wouldn't hurt you. So technically, if you were able to reach x65, but it wrecked your body, but at that point were able to use x50 without the ill effects. You would keep using x50 until you trained enough to use x100 the same way. Even though you COULD use x124 by that point, you instead use x100 because that's what you're currently able to handle.

[@ShiroHoshi]

My 2 cents on this is, from the start it should be all or nothing, but goku after learning transformations, and getting his body use to it, the more he would use it, the more he would get use to it. either he would gain more stamina to allow him to go SS-Kaioken, or the strain on his body would act as a super charger to allow him to gain even more power after he is fully rested after a big fight. like Kaioken as a whole, its a double edge sword. You get the boost, but for a short period, but he would learn to use it more efficiently, and because of the training he did in space while going to namic, he could also put multipliers on it from 3 onward to where it would be just as straining as it was then as a super sayian + Kaioken. For the long run it should help only so much though. In general he would gain some kind of resistance to it if he worked at it.

[@hg9777]

I think the reason why Goku didn't use super kaioken in the cannon anime was cause if SSJ 1 was a power boost of x50, then maybe the stress on the body would be x50 as well, and the time it would last would be 50 times shorter as well. It just really came to mind cause I mean super saiyan is a 50 times increase to everything basically.

[@Larph13]

Just realized: Gundam 00 Trans-Am system might be based on DBZ-Kaioken. Almost same effects and side effects.

[@FedorovAvtomat]

To be fair, Kaio Ken was a technique that was not made with Saiyans in mind. It was made as a martial art to boost one's performance temporarily. If a human used it, it would make sense since a human can't transform into a higher state that we know of. However with Saiyans it would prove to be very useful UNTIL they have the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. After the Super Saiyan state is mastered then the Kaio Ken for a Saiyan is essentially useless, however for a human or another species that can't achieve an advanced state the Kaio Ken could be used as a way for them to go into their own version of Super Saiyan.

[@louelastic954]

So since Super Saiyan is basically no longer a thing with Goku after Battle of Gods, does this mean we could see the return of Kaio-Ken? One result of the Super Saiyan God transformation that is explicitly noted is that Goku actually becomes leaner as a result. This leads me to believe that the God transformation puts a significantly lower amount of stress on his body than Super Saiyan. I think, as a result, Goku could finally use Kaio-Ken again if he needs to.

[@Jagarus]

Kaio-ken functions and is an attack. It is the forced concentration of ki in the body to multiply it self to hold more ki then the body can endure. The saiyan transformations is a "natural" expansion of ki also it strengthens the body to hold and endure more. I think this is probably why we dont see the kaio-ken attack again after his transformation. Either that or thecreator forgot about kaio-ken and never thought to use it... Cell should of known that attack since it was used on earth. All techniques used on earth was known to him. I honestly think the creator forgot about the technique.

[@dnyce1095]

Yes it can! SSJ1 is only a 50x increase from base. In theory if someone could handle the stress of KaioKen at 50x, then it would equal the power of SSJ1. However, KaioKen is a "special move" unlike the Super Saiyan form being a blood line form. The SSJ form works with the users body to maximize and sustain the power increase while KaioKen just crams power into an unadjusted/unsuitable container; hence why it puts so much stress on the users body. It damages the body while giving a Ki boost. SSJ amps the body, while sapping Ki.

[@souldude6344]

imagine if Goku went ss4 and used kaioken x5. Sure, it'd drain his energy pretty fast, but he'd cripple any opponent in mere seconds.

[@Reborn77774]

I think we finally gonna see it for the first time

[@tazewell76]

Qaaman Land, Rhymstyle, I think I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this for several reasons. Firstly the technique was essentially (thru that in just for yall to add to the count lol) forgotten once Goku went SSJ. The way it's explained is that they both take a tremendous toll on the body and the kaioken tends to do more physical/outward damage and stamina drain whereas Super Saiyan is more a strain of focus, base strength, ki and resolve to keep up rather than just a "guage that runs out" like in the games or something. If Goku had continued with it or perhaps taught it to some of the other z fighters then we'd kno the answer to the question for sure but it seems that according to the way Akira most recently explained things sith the development of SSJGod, etc that (and in paraphrasing) transformation is a great way to unlock, boost or expend ki and combat energy but if you train in your base level these other levels also gain and they do so exponentially. Take "Mystic Gohan" for example. When elder Kai said "just power up and do ur super Saiyan thing, you'll see" he powered beyond his SSJ level yet still hadn't transformed. Secondly (or 3rdly if nitpicky lol) simply doing the math can show you that it can EASILY match if not outdo any SSJ boost given with the right application.

[@ss7cindersh]

i have two questions about kaioken. 1) if kaioken injures the body significantly with use isnt that like an ultimate training tool for a saiyan in that it would always provide a zenkai boost. 2) other z-warriors have been trained under king kai. ive seen a what if piccolo learned kaioken video but couldnt it have been a way to allow tien and krillin a way to somewhat keep up with the saiyans even if it is less efficient than super saiyan? i know you did this before xenoverse was out and i am commenting after its release and humans can equip kiaioken which made me wonder why it never happened

[@Aristoper]

Another interesting aspect with kaio-ken is if Goku fused with Vegetta and a kaio-ken attack maybe between the two bodies it could handle it better...or what if he fused with the saiyan ape form vegetta or gohan and did a kaio-ken...bawlllller move...

[@jwigs91]

#supersaiyanpotato Got a question for you guys, in theory then, how about when Goku was charging up his ki with a kaio-ken aura verses a normal aura in front of ginyu, how far along was his level by then? Do you think that would factor into goku being able to develop his ability in kaio-ken like he did for super saiyan if he had continued to train and improve under kaio-ken instead of super saiyan transformation? Kaio-ken does put a massive strain on the body, but by the time goku got to namek he used it with little effort at all, and he even stated that furthering his traing under super saiyan would lessen the strain that also causes on the body during his time with gohan in the hyperbolic time chamber, so i think it's still reasonable to consider it possible that if goku had only trained to perfect his kaio-ken ability it could have been equivalent to his ss level with time?

[@Ahmedivx]

The only time I have seen Goku does a Super Kaio-Ken (Kaio-Ken with Super Saiyan On) was he was fighting Pikon in the other world tournament, in the anime that is

[@pRopaaNS]

In my opinion Keio-Ken just became into a nameless technique after point at which controlling your power level seemed to become a natural thing for Z fighters. Heck, in the first fight against Goku Vegeta showed similiar technique to Kaio-Ken by powering up. So from what I understand the fancy name was just abadoned, because characters learned to control, hide and raise their power level when neccesary. We wouldn't even be sure if Goku used Kaio-ken against Frieza if King Kai didn't comment on that.

[@lunamashie]

There is one major thing you guys forgot to specified.The Kaioken is something that not only take a toll on the stamina of the user but also injures the body. The muscle is are forced to get over there normal limit and expend. But but when something grow bigger, it's not only one way it's also press tighter on the bones and all. However when Goku fight Frieza he goes x20 and the muscle don't grow up as much. Also Goku was able to maintain it longer. Proof that he train his kaioken while traveling in space. But the strain is still on the body and can cripple the body, which was the reason why King Kai didn't want Goku to go higher then Kaioken x2. Super Saiyan however is something that is "natural" for the race. Sure it does take a toll but it is only on the exhaution of the stamina, there is not physical strain on the body other than making them simply tired after a while. But they also trained it so that it wouldn't. Kaioken could kill the user if wrongly used Super Saiyen would not. Now if both could be used maybe however, the biggest flaw in the Kaioken that was seen in the manga was that when goku was hit while in Kaioken state, he was losing his state and had to "cast it" again to use it. While in Super Saiyan state, unless you are knock out or exhausted yourself completely, there is no problem.

[@OblivionKnight76]

Here's a question: Can you use Kaio-Ken while in Super Saiyan form?

[@alexfletcher1567]

Don't know if anyone's noticed but super siyajin goku and vegeta use kioken when transformed, when they move a serious pace you can hear the distinctive kioken whistle, for example goku vs frieza on namek and when vegeta fights frieza in God form he uses it if you listen closely when he is finishing him off at the end. As vegeta says when he's fighting goku I have witnessed such a technique before, it's always being used just masked by Super siyajin

[@DH1986]

Considering he was able to do a kaioken x 20 against Frieza without destroying his body and how comfortable he got in Super Sayan while training in the hyperbolic time chamber. I think it would have been possible for him to use kaioken in the form. Goku probably just wanted to focus on conserving energy.

[@jamieparnell1458]

Kaio-Ken is a power surge technique which becomes obsolete once Goku obtains the Super Saiyan Level, which is a more effective way of Powering Up.

[@JamieMadrox1210]

Essentially

[@lilsean5864]

LOL

[@demarcius07]

Here's a thought; although super kaioken would be as strong as a ssj2 but more stressful on the body, would it not still be more beneficial speed & endurance wise or would everything but the strain be the same?

[@babypizza3903]

It would've been fine if the non-Saiyans learned how to use Kaio-Ken from King Kai so they were still viable and it was explained Kaio-Ken would have burned out the energy from SSJ too quickly like with Goku's SSJ3 transformation, so it was used sparingly. Then we could have had some crap where Goku burns through SSJ with Kaio Ken and has no energy left and one of the non-Saiyans could do something cool.

[@BlueRubixCubes]

I remember in a GT episode, goku used kaio ken times 100 while in super saiyan 4

[@CuppaGi]

Super Saiyan is a natural state for a Saiyan. Their body can withstand the power just fine because they're built to do so. The only instance of a Saiyan body being unable to withstand any Super Saiyan form is "Kid" Goku in GT, where he is unable to hold SSJ3 without his tail for more than a few moments, but this is not canon. Gotenks has no issue maintaining the form. Kaio-Ken is an unnatural state for a Saiyan (or whoever uses it), so the body does not know what to do or how to cope. It's overloading the body with a form of power that it shouldn't naturally deal with.

[@PinkRonin]

Not sure I agree. Goku routinely uses Kaioken before achieving SSJ and it never costs him the fight or drains him so badly that he can't go on. In theory I guess that's the risk, but in practice it never occurs. Further, it isn't exactly so temporary that it only lasts a second. Again, that might be the theory, but that's not how we see it work when applied. - Goke uses it on Nappa, and is still in fine condition to fight Vegeta. Once he uses it against Vegeta, he maintains it and ratchets it up to x2, then x3, and when they're battling with the power blasts, up to x4. He is still able to summon a spirit bomb after that. - He uses it against Jeice and Burter, and is still fine to fight Ginyu, so the toll it takes on him is not so tremendous when using it at least just in its base form. And when he uses it against Ginyu it's rather prolonged and controlled. - Against Freeza he's mastered the technique so well that no one even knows he's using it x10! until King Kai points out he's been using it the whole start of the fight. When that doesn't work he powers up to Kaioken x20. And he fights Frieza for another 20 episodes before transforming into a SSJ. - In World's Strongest he uses it 3 times, and the last time he powers it up to his max (x4). He still has enough energy in him for his finisher, the Spirit Bomb, afterwards. - A similar situation in Tree of Might, Goku uses it against Gohan's Oozaru form, then uses it again against Turles, but still has to use a Spirit Bomb in the end. - And he uses it against Lord Slug as well to rip a hole through his chest. Nothing in the cartoons and movies suggest that the Kaioken is not a technique worth developing over time as his power level continues to grow. And since nothing suggests that he can't use it in SSJ mode (and he actually does against Pikkon) then Goku should definitely have been improving his Kaioken technique throughout the seasons. He either wipes the floor with the weaker mob, reduces his strong opponent to near-defeat status, or it has no tangible effect but doesn't really wipe him out either. Goku should always be calling on the Kaioken if the fight won't already obviously go his way. And if he is in SSJ mode, even better. Go as high in SSJ as you can, and throw on another Kaioken multiplier if you have to.

[@kidn00b1]

Him being able to make a spirit bomb has nothing to do with his own amount of energy left. He uses Spirit bomb when he is depleted to so much that he is no longer effective. Kaioken has a toll. It hasn't shown to actually cost him the fight because in one instance he was completely over powered by, and another he unlocked ssj.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

In my mind, Kaioken pushes the user beyond their current power limit, hence why it's so exhausting, where Super Saiyan simply increases their power limit so they simply unlock the next level. Combining the two would be insane, but it's weird that Goku didn't 1-shot Pikkon when he used Super Kaioken, since he was already in the same ballpark as Pikkon, but then for that punch his power was doubled, which would have put him far above Pikkon and as we've seen, having that much of a lead on someone is enough to 1-shot them. I get it was filler (hence why he never does it again), but it should still follow the established rules.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

***** That's exactly my point, Goku's Super Kaioken SHOULD have taken out Pikkon since they were roughly equal in strength towards the end, only Pikkon's Thunder Flash forced Goku to pull out the Instant Transmission, and before that Pikkon was struggling to overpower Goku in his Base form. If Goku wasn't close to Pikkon in power he would have lost way before he pulled out the Super Kaioken, but the fact he lasted that long proved they were close in power before the Super Kaioken, as established earlier, fights where one fighter is far above the other tend to be extremely short and one-sided.

[@killer13324]

Actually the filler with vegita's younger brother IS canon. In the original dialogue for Battle of Gods, Tarble was mentioned meaning he is a canon character in the DBZ universe.

[@PimpyChimpChimp]

I just realized this video was uploaded two years ago Goku did the kaioken in ssb form CLEARLY showing a huge use

[@ViewerOnline101]

Well, SSJ is 50x base, so to mach it, Goku would need to do kaio-ken x50. But kaio-ken only lasts for an instant, and it damages the body the higher the level is used. We only saw Goku do this once to escape a star's gravity.

[@lordzed-]

He used super kaio-ken against Pikkon in the Other World Tournament and never used it again after. Maybe he used it against Pikkon was because Goku knew his dead body could handle it better. Same reason he was able to push to SSJ3.

[@blazepyros]

Well I think from what I've seen in both that filler with pikkon and something mentioned in the buu saga when goku went super saiyan 3 while in the afterlife energy consumption might be different. Goku is allowed to keep his body for training in the afterlife and he discovered the super saiyan 3 transformation but when he used it in the living realm the amount of power he released could not only be felt from throughout the planet, galaxy, and even as far as the afterlife BUT it also drained most of the time of his 24 hours his body was allowed to stay in the living realm from just being ssj3 for a few minutes. I think kaioken would be less stressful in the afterlife but still too damaging to be held long enough to compete with ssj transformations. When goku used I think up to x5 in the saiyan saga his body literally started tearing itself apart but after training in 100x gravity and the zenkai boost on namek he was able to do x20 against frieza. H ecould definitely go beyond that in the afterlife by the buu saga potentially but it's still a matter of how long would his body hold out with each increase in kaioken stacked on.

[@Jesusblowfish]

Don't forget though there is a point in DBZ where a SSJ kaioken wouldnt be impossible and that is during the cell ark. After goku and gohan emerge from the HBTC and have mastered SSJ as a base form which eliminates the stresses of the transformations.

[@dushanebriggs5811]

I'm sure Qaaman already knew that Goku combined SSJ1 with the Kaio Ken technique before during the other world tournament against Pikkon.

[@HowieHellbent]

Super Kaio-Ken was used by Goku in the otherworld tournament.

[@connorgordon3890]

Super Saiyan is a transformation where the body is turned into one that can handle the power boost. KaioKen just boosts your power while your body stays the same. You could train your body to withstand the power boost, but that just takes too long, so Super Saiyan is kinda the best way to go.

[@warren010h]

8000?? No, it's over NINE THOUSAND!!!

[@Hatz2053]

as we now know Goku does Kiao-ken in God form, so clearly he can do it in super saying. also he lasted 10 Mins or so doing Kiao-ken ×10 in God form fighting hit, so we now know it would be just a burst, but he can sustain it for long periods of time.

[@vulcan7477]

This video was uplouded 1 year ago dragon ball super didnt even exist by that time

[@Hatz2053]

+Vul can yep. was just saying what we now know.

[@taika6396]

me too!

[@alcan9952]

Super Saiyan Blue has a much more controlled Ki, meaning Goku doesn't have to concentrate on controlling it himself so much of the time as he does with normal SSJ, which is why he can instead focus on using a Kaioken alongside SSJB. So going SSJ and then Kaioken would be either impossible or incredibly difficult which is why it was never canon and was only used in the filler episodes.

[@camerinthundy]

That doesn't make any sense. Goku can't hold SSB for a long time. He can definitively use SSj1 times his max kaioken. He doesn't need to focus at all, since he's trained with it for so long.

[@htaed23]

Well the main issue I have is in your description of kaioken vs super sayian. Kaioken can be compared to the eight gates that guy sensai use in which its a power increase. Super sayian is more of a transformation comparable to that of Frieza in which you change your entire body. Although the change is not as dramatic as Frieza there is a physical change in the muscles and hair. Due to this it is likely that the reason that super sayian doesn't have the same toll on the body as Kaioken is because it is a new body. So technically Kaioken could be used at any super sayian level as a multiplier tied on to the end of the equation. Though if goku was smart enough to use it for trying it would be advantageous in the sense that it would allow goku to experience higher levels of power. And as battle of gods of shown just experiencing ssg was enough to improve his base super sayian power. So a super sayian 3 kaioken times 5 would greatly increase his base super sayian 3 powers

[@christophercunningham8539]

during goku's fight with freeza i know in the english dub when king kai is talking telepathically a comment is made that during that fight he is using kaioken x20

[@doublethinkplusone]

Could there be a natural asymptotic limit to the Kaio-ken multiplier which is indirectly proportional to the individual's base form power level? As Goku's base form increases in strength, his capacity to perform the Kaio-ken wouldn't necessarily increase. 20x at a base power level of 100,000 isn't the same as 20x at a base power level of 1 million. The latter should require significantly more effort and concentration, and thus naturally be more difficult. My hypothesis is that there's a point of diminishing returns. At the end of Z, it's possible Goku can't achieve a 10x Kaio-ken due to having such a high base power level.