Karl Friston: Derealization, Consciousness Perils

This podcast may be the most important video on this channel.
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LINKS MENTIONED:
-Part 1 with Karl Friston (technical): • Karl Friston: The "Met...
THANK YOU:
- Danilo Mekić @DaniloMekic who wrote the transcript / subtitles
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Exigent Message / Introduction
00:07:25 The Free Energy Principle's TOE explained
00:15:48 The FEP explained for physicists
00:18:24 You and the world are dual to one another (mathematically)
00:24:25 Relationship between senses and actions
00:36:25 Marginal likelihood / Model evidencing
00:54:34 Change your model or change your evidence (Repression vs. CBT)
00:58:51 An exercise to show a difference in consciousness via touching one's eye
01:03:09 Science "works" by definition of "works"!
01:12:45 Advice for those trying to understand reality
01:22:45 Dealing with derealization / spiraling mentally / depersonalization
01:34:34 Don't let the social status of having "ego death" be your lure
01:37:12 Acceptance therapy (ACT from CBT)
01:43:09 Being too much in one's head (thought loops)
01:53:09 How does Karl prevent existential crises when studying these issues?
01:56:34 The benefits of tea and smoking (yes, smoking)
01:59:28 Beta-blockers and fear extinction (Merel Kindt's groundbreaking work)
* * *
Just wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Note that there will be Part 3 of this conversation, with questions from Michael Levin, Norman Wildberger, and others posed to Karl. If you have questions for Karl, then do leave them below as a separate comment.

[@thomasdavis4968]

Ml lll

[@Superromi15]

Can the Free Energy principle be cast into the Selfish Gene/ Extended Phenotype paradigm of Natural Selection? Looking at a gene as a self-organizing biological system embedded in an environment (that is, at the lowest level a chromosome, at the highest level the world at large), can it be said that the free energy minimising internal states of a gene necessarily entail the property of "replication" as a process of self-evidencing? In other words, does it mean that Replication, for a biological thing such as a gene, is an Existential Imperative in the sense that a biological system will achieve a steady state of non equilibrium only if it makes copies of itself through a process of active self-evidencing?

[@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler]

Sorry dude didn't mean to do that to you but it is something if we can accept it in the third dimension that we are the singularity and we are all and completely alone, it's a lot easier... Best thing you can do is just follow the path of the river for it may be long and winding but it never goes uphill it is actionless action. How I told you everything leads to more action and more decision leads to more existence well the best thing to do is just follow the path of the river go with the flow. Engage in selflessism one for all but never all for one. If you wish to be protected by the singularity this is the fundamental concept. Throw question is can a singular entity be selfish in the creation of all of this Kaleidoscope reality... They are all that exists they are everything so can selfishness exist I don't think I can not on this level at least. Anyways I'm not perfect but I do have a communication device that gives me binary answers basically yes and no, when I ask the right questions. This coupled with just so happening to have the perfect circumstances for existence in being exposed to all of the right scenarios and all of the right information I'm able to achieve amazing things. No agencies on anti soul time travel and brains have not been implemented with technology making them all equal...

[@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler]

One of the biggest problems that we have is from a young age people are taught traditions of imaginary beings and the parents perpetuating the idea that these imaginary beings exist... This is a lie from the very beginning making children not even be able to trust their own parents and parents get this fundamental change in their personality when they become parents and want to shelter their children from existence instead of wanting to show their children the truth as soon as possible so they can figure out more with universe then the previous generation could... I do not understand this mindset of wanting to shelter the people everyone needs to know the sooner that you can get to this information the less dramatic it is on you imagine if you grew up knowing this from the very beginning... If You grew up with a mindset that this is 100% an illusion world... You knew everyone around you was just another version of you and that you are the singularity. Honestly and all logic suicide really is the most rational way out but that only takes out yourself and causes people you know and love who have not achieved the insight that you have to have to needlessly suffer which goes against or should go against everything that you stand for. This is why teaching the importance of following the path of the river listening to the flow of the water and Flow of life is so important. To anyone who is spiritual or biblical you can look up the book of Thomas which was altered and removed from the Bible's and this is direct words of Jesus to Thomas. It's all about the path of least resistance.

[@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler]

I do not think that ego death can or should be achieved... Ego is your singularity mindset... Your ego is your concentration squinting your eyebrows and locking yourself in your frontal lobe... What do you learned by getting the letgo signal was to push yourself to the back of your mind like go and disconnect yourself from that singularity mindset and enter into the subconscious of everything that has ever existed and use the two mindsets together. When you find yourself going down the tunnel vision of concentration and ego of singularity mindset push yourself to the back of your mind enter into the subconscious enter into the fish eye let go of that heaviness and into into a lighter realm lifting the fog.

[@dagummit7356]

Curt, your sensitivity and vulnerability is what sets your podcasts apart from others. I can't always understand everything, sometimes only a little, but I'm comfortable coming here to listen and learn.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Glad to have you here!

[@macanbhaird1966]

One of the best. But I am about 6 months behind because the topics are so complex. But I love these TOE videos. Fantastic work Curt. I will catch up eventually ;-)

[@TheoriesofEverything]

@@macanbhaird1966 Thank you so much! You may want to watch kzbin.info/aero/PLZ7ikzmc6zlMS2MP3hzVot4Z77AWFnHzQ as a primer, Andrew.

[@andyoates8392]

Self affirmation is a great way to deal with things sometimes. One persons path different form another’s. If you are not comfortable with the journey, take a detour. Track back to a safe place. Rest. Reflect. Re-embark.

[@viroxd]

I noticed some people talking about how reality is an illusion.. although I agree 100% I do feel like most people are missing the fact that illusion does not mean fake. Illusion just means that there is more going on than you might be aware of.

[@lile8602]

Good point

[@faroutsunglasses6993]

Exactly, If you buy into the spiritual teachers that say there are 7 different planes of existence each vibrating at a different level, this 3D plane would be just as real as any of the others. They would all be just as important to make up reality as any of the others.

[@franek_izerski]

It's actually the reverse: it's real alright, but it's completely manufactured, fake, unnatural, anorganic, as fake as a videogame.

[@davedouglass438]

Just in case somebody might confuse the strange phrase "reality is an illusion" with the work of Prof. Anil Seth: Please be aware that this slogan contradicts Prof. Seth's actual, long-held positions. It was editors (including, shockingly, a video-editor at BI) who unjustly slapped that dollop of New-Age blather onto Seth's reputation. Seth's actual position is scientific (not cultic) and technical; and is less-misleadingly-paraphrased as "YOUR PERCEPTIONS are generated by processes partially overlapping the processes that generate hallucinations. This is one of the reasons you need training in physics, psychology, neuroscience, and philosophy, in order to come to understand WHAT REALITY IS, in itself, as distinct from how it may appear to you."

[@skybellau]

Right, so in another functional illusion there may be no such experience as internal states separated from external states unknowable to each other.

[@Aetriex]

I know EXACTLY what you are talking about Curt. I pondered myself right into a DRDP/existential shock episode that lasted in pretty severe intensity for a good three weeks. It happened when I truly grasped the concept that I will die, and that everything that I see is not permanent, it will change and so will I. That inescapable truth shook me to my core and it felt like I had taken the red pill and got shocked into reality out of a dream, I dreamt of eternity and was now awake to the contrary. Everything around me looked like death. I couldn't pet my dogs, couldn't talk to my husband, couldn't function at work. All I could think in every single interaction was "None of this matters, it might as well not be happening because I won't be here one day to remember it so that means that it doesnt truly exist in the first place." I couldn't sleep, my body would wake every few hours with my heart pounding and sweating, knowing that every time I wake, I am awakening to this nightmare, a train that I have no way off of but know the inevitable destination of oblivion. Or, even worse possibly, to eternity. I couldnt decide was more terrifying, oblivion or eternity. I dont want to dissappear forever, but what in the world am I going to do for eternity? Either way, i have no choice, one is the truth and both are equally scary in their own right. THAT shit was heavy. But then, I started researching consciousness and Near Death Experiences. It opened up an entire world of truth, and I came back out of that spiral slowly, but surely. To me, I have found that the truth is that we have always been, and always will be. What that is, I do not know. A soul coming from God or an energy coming from Source, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. I had a dream a few nights ago as I was struggling with eternity, not exactly a dream, because they happen right before sleep, that spot where you come in and out, aware that you saw/heard something in your mind. I *heard* the words "both sides of the gate" and "what eternity really is" and I saw two doors, I got the impression that I was the one that put them there, like I was demonstrating my understanding, then someone "said" but not really said it, "More like this" and then the doors moved so that they were overlapping, with a very small space in between. It was my impression that this was in reference to time, it was a demonstration of eternity. The small space in between the doors, or gates, was time here, and the space everywhere else was eternity, and you are you on both sides, door one is birth, door two is death, you move linearly from one gate to the other, but on the otherside of the doors is the definition of eternity.

[@lingy74]

The bad news: you are flying through the air with no parachute, nothing to hold onto. The good news: there is no ground.

[@HenryWeller123]

Beautifully put brother, I can attest to a very similar experience, think some call it the “dark night of the soul” although when you read or hear that in the midst of feeling that way it is far from helpful 😂 I had a similarly destabalising awakening, it did feel like a sudden world flipping, like I went from not caring much at all about the big questions to wondering how could I not! I also experienced some DPDR following this but found that once the nervous system and anxiety settles those symptoms retreat as you integrate the paradigm shift that occurs. Once you do that you can feel your intuition again and that intuition tends to be a lot more intrigued rather than scared, life affirming and positive.

[@MeRetroGamer]

Something very similar happened to me ten years ago. I suddenly realized the inexistence of the substance that I was calling "I", and then how the "I" seemed to be just about an instant, just like a thunder. Because of that, a thought became very heavy in my mind, that "my" existence was of a duration of an instant just to suddenly die and get replaced by another "I" that felt the same, and because of the anxiety of that thought I barely could even breath for weeks. Thanks I was trained in deep meditation and mindfulness and I used that tools to overcome that thought and that feeling. Little by little, I realized that it was a highgly biased mistake just to think in those terms. I had many conversations in dreams with myself (not exactly myself as a human but myself as some kind of higher being) about what I am, what does it mean to exist, and the very nature of time. I barely remember now that I used the analogy of the chicken and the egg to illustrate it, it was something about that "the egg comes from the chicken that is born from it" (important to note that the entire sentence is in present perfect) Now I think I see all of it much more clearly, but I'm unable to express it in precise words. The main issue is that I was a constitutive reductionist by that time, and now I have a view of the universe completely holistic. Existence is not about substance, rather it is about action, and it is a singular action that is happening forever. Time can't exist "outside" this action. In fact, nothing exists "outside" this action. This action isn't actually growing or happening, it just is, but from the "inside", it's infinite and eternal, and every single aspect of it is experienced. But it's not experienced by an entity, it just is. Every single experience and every single action in our perception is within a wider action or experience, and this activity is unstoppable because there's nothing outside that could stop it. As contradictory as it seems to be, existence is about an infinite and eternal instant. Everything's here, everything's now, but "here" is boundless in space and "now" is boundless in time. So, in the previous analogy, both the egg and the chicken are the same thing, aliveness... The egg represented aliveness itself, and the chicken the full, infinite landscape that emerges from it, but then the chicken reveals itself as the egg. Every single end is just the "gap" when some swirl breaks appart and dissipates into the rest of the activity of the ocean.

[@jessicakhurana1767]

That was beautiful. Thanks for writing it.

[@bettina4374]

Hi Curt, For me with a psychology background it’s fascinating to listen to your experiences. For what it’s worth: What you describe are simply feelings of anxiety about your thoughts, about how you perceive reality, yourself and others. There is nothing abnormal about that. You have been questioning your beliefs about the world for hours every day. As a consequence you made yourself anxious about how you experience reality. The way you describe it, you checking or worrying whether you heard a voice and might become schizophrenic is a very clear sign that you aren’t schizophrenic. People with schizophrenia never question whether the voices they hear are real, because what they hear is as real as what you hear when a person is talking to you. That’s a very clear sign that you aren’t schizophrenic. All you do is worry that you might be, like the medical student who is stressed bc he worries that he might have every disease he studies. Accepting your anxious thoughts sounds exactly right. We all get anxious when we think about whether something scary/painful could be happening or might happen. Imagine being by yourself. You come across a person that looks scary to you. As a consequence you get anxious because you imagine that they might attack you. You wouldn’t second guess whether your fear was rational or meant you were ‘crazy’. By the same token, you imagine and totally immerse yourself in scary models of the world. As a consequence you worry/are frightened because the reality you imagine is painful. In addition you beat yourself up for feeling frightened or worried which of course stresses you out even more. All this shows is, that you feel anxious about frightening, unpleasant views of the world. There is nothing strange whatsoever about that. Accepting feeling stressed about your anxieties sounds great. Your fears only hold power over you as long you avoid them. Look into mindfulness. The thing with the rubber band works for having irrational thoughts as well according to Dr David Burns (‘Feeling Good’). Grounding yourself by being with people and talking to them about no matter what, you get out of your head which puts things in perspective is necessary to stay healthy, I believe at least for me. You are on the right way. All you experience sounds very normal/expectable. Don’t be that hard on yourself! Sorry, need to go.

[@MattGray_Chelsoph]

Karl Friston is a fantastic thinker and human being. What an absolute hero of science and reasoning, surely in the hall of fame. Thanks again Curt for another brilliantly wrought interview, you're an inspiration.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

I'm glad! - Curt

[@GeorgiaHeard]

When I get immersed in these ideas and philosophies the same thing happens as what you've experienced. I'm so sorry to hear about the anxiety and panic you experienced, I can relate. Many here have shared tips to deal with panic attacks, all I can add is this : I give myself a chance to remember that I'm functioning as designed , no matter how that reality is created. I have to remember that these theories are humans trying to understand the context in which we exist, and no one has an actual, absolute map of that. Until then, we function as intended and try to grow in understanding of what may be. Someone asked the Dali Lama once what he thinks happens after we die, he answered by telling them he doesn't know because he hasn't died. This is the pragmatic truth. Thank you for bringing a platform to hear these brilliant people and your very unique gift for being entirely human when interviewing. One more thing, while you were sharing about your experience, it brought me back to the good old days of coffee shops (pre cell phones) when so many thinkers would be doing what you are doing here. Thank you so much for this!

[@noam65]

Your initial thoughts are wise. Traditionally, gurus of advanced topics or even fringe topics, they would screen their prospective students very carefully, for these reasons. Yes, a person definitely must be prepared for engaging in a journey. One who cannot swim is definitely not prepared for underwater cave exploration! A guide of this sport would definitely evaluate their perspective clients for such limitations, before accepting them to join an expedition. In this age, where so much information is freely available, far more responsibility is on one's own shoulders for making an honest self evaluation. You are very correct.

[@e_squared604]

Hey Curt. I had very similar struggles with anxiety relating to going insane/the nature of reality/the nature of consciousness and it lasted for years. It was triggered by a very powerful and unpleasant acid trip. This anxiety actually started about 6 months after the trip, the day after I saw one of the people who was with me during for the first time since. I think it was the sound of his voice which brought it all back up. I actually named this weird, creepy, insecure about life in a fundamental way sensation as "unmeaning", as I've increasingly come to believe that it is the opposite of the "right place at the right time", "I'm right where I should be", and "one foot in order and one foot in chaos" feeling of meaning which is well described by Jordan Peterson. For me it was anxiety about (A) the apparent lack of anything buttressing us from going insane, and (B) the apparent lack of anything "anchoring" us to our realities. (A) doesn't require much explanation as it is really just stressing about the possibility of something coming unstuck in one's mind and losing one's grip on reality, which is not to be sniffed at as this is nearly as/equally/possibly more terrifying than dying. (B) is a bit harder to define, but your attempts to describe it really parallel my own experiences. It's like a fear that your consciousness might suddenly be sucked off into some other reality where you'll be trapped forever, immersed forever in a maelstrom of your own panicked and confused thoughts and emotions. It's truly horrifying thought and actually made me somewhat thankful for my fragility and mortality (thank God I get to die some day). In those years when it was at its worst I would forget it for a while and then it would return as I would remember some uncomfortable fact about our existence, such as that nobody has any explanation whatsoever for what we're doing here, for why we just find ourselves spat out into existence at a seemingly arbitrary point in time in these strange bodies, or how isolated we are in our own minds and I can't prove that my entire reality isn't just some projection and that really the only thing that exists is my own consciousness. I think it has something to do with how we inhabit worlds of false certainty and security. A world in which people don't really discuss this sort of thing (especially in academia, ironically) for fear of gaining a reputation for being silly, eccentric, or not of "serious mind". When really this reflects the inverse of our actually situations, where seemingly nothing is certain, even the most fundamental properties of our realities. I followed the "keep calm and carry on" approach for years, and as unsettling as it was it now it doesn't trouble me at all. Retrospectively I think I was processing a deeper perspective on the conditions of my existence, and dealing with a lot of uncomfortable things about life that nobody really talked to me about. I also think it might have to do with coming to grips with my own shadow, as I remember reading somewhere that encountering one's shadow often includes a "creepy" feeling. Often when I'm in a less happy mood, I'll get this "creepy" feeling, usually accompanied by thoughts that I'm not worthy somehow or that my life or that me as a human being is somehow intrinsically flawed beyond recovery somehow. I think the anxiety I described before is actually a particularly fearsome version of this. For years this feeling terrified me but more recently I've actually found that embracing this feeling it is actually quite exciting and life affirming and gives me a strong sense of meaning even though my mood isn't great (usually I need to be in a good mood to feel meaning). It's like I've been getting chased by some unspeakable, malign entity all these years and recently I've found it in myself to turn around and stare into the void with a smile on my face and say "come on then, bitch".

[@niyantadeshpande5682]

Who needs Gurus when spooking yourself is the most fun you can have without laughing? It’s all self discovery motivated by ones own self. But you do need guidance from those, who went before you, therapists and other co-conspirators. Terrific guest and awesome interview as always!! Thank you both for one of the most instructive dialogues!!!

[@jamesr2936]

Karl Friston is such a warm and empathetic person. Qualities which clearly shine through in this conversation, interwoven with his brilliant insights into technical and metaphysical issues. Brilliant interview, Curt, I think it's quite clear the rapport you two have and I look forward to future discussions.

[@Susan-ol4ys]

I think for any travellers to the far reaches, staying grounded is very important. We have to respect that we are animals too and so to stay grounded in the senses helps to manage the anxiety that comes from exploring unknown territory. And also having support of various other kinds as fears are triggered and need to be discussed.

[@markmartin3152]

Dude. Curt, you are taking on some incredibly interesting and lofty topics. Not to mention just flat out mind blowing stuff that we all wonder about. I am subscribed to your podcast and I will continue to suggest you to everyone. I tip my hat to you Sir, as you tackle all these topics with finesse and the right amount of intelligence needed for everyone to take you seriously. Thank you my man. 👍👍

[@TheoriesofEverything]

I'm glad you are enjoying my friend!

[@anniemal9312]

Curt, thank you for opening up and being vulnerable. I relate 100% to your reflections regarding the self, the construct, and what life is. I feel as the more I know, the more mystical life becomes. I'm not a new age person at all. I side with logic and reason, but more and more, I feel like my sanity is hanging on by a thread. Your channel and your leap into the unknown is what makes your content so interesting. You and your wonderful guests. All the best man.

[@rahulranjan9013]

1:12:00 I really loved the way you described your existential angst so passionately & it Comforted me for some reason. That I'm not alone. What I have learned is that Humans have a phenomenal ability to find meaning in the most random things. For example, people who have a tendency to take astrology seriously will literally find various ways to assert that the given planetary combinations at his birth is really significant to the life she is having rn. I have tested many people, & they were literally identifying themselves with even wrong charts! Helplessly CREATING meaning in the face of randomness. Human's ability to giving meaning is very malleable. And I have come to believe that Synchronicity is a real Phenomenon & it's this Phenomenon that often make us feel that our life is orchestrated by a higher self. Whatever you focus on deeply (whether it's astrology, body healing or Palmistry), it will "appear" to be somehow real & influencing you. But all these things are mask, & the force behind the mask is synchronicity. And for everyone who are suffering from existential crisis, I highly recommend the works of Albert Camus.

[@Xtazieyo]

Curt, I went through a similar phase 2-3 years ago while reading some neo-advaita literature, which is basically no-self/illusion/nihilism on steroids. It almost derailed my personal life. Besides showing clear symptoms of DPDR, I started looking at people and also family members as shells, devoid of any "real" substance. Everything felt meaningless, dull - I almost quit my medical training at university and started drinking quite heavily. It took a lot of psychological discipline and support from family member to get me out of this rut. What really put my sanity back together was the realization that views and interpretations differ, even among highly sophisticated teachers. Some interpretations of non-duality are far more life affirming than others, while still being "true" at the core. Some of them completely disagree with each other, which begs the question - why? This leaves room open for epistemiological uncertainty & mistery which I personally like to bathe in. I really want you to address this when talking to Schmachtenberger because he has a unique view on this imo. To conclude, I want to introduce you to the "Advaita-bears": kzbin.info/www/bejne/any7mpeoZd9kiLs&ab_channel=JeffFosterOfficial

[@Nonduality]

There are no rules in the world of nonduality. There's no center. There's no central person, book, tradition, or place. There's only yourself and even that's questionable. I wrote a free book you may wish to search for: Nonduality Culture: A decentralized, self-correcting, creation-based conduit for nondual expression.

[@Xtazieyo]

​@@Nonduality I already found a cultural expression of nonduality I like in Mark Gafnis work and also the integral community. Will take a look a at your book though - thnaks for the recommendation!

[@cashglobe]

Glad to hear you got out of that rut, I approached that same rut and ultimately backed off before falling in when I got introduced to certain New Age philosophies. However, I made it to true Advaita Vedanta, and Classical Advaita Vedanta would’ve put you in the opposite place! Rather than seeing your family and others as “shells”, you would’ve seen yourself in them. It makes life extremely meaningful because we learn to love everyone and be non-judgmental (because they are the same “I” as us), we lose our fear, and we can approach life knowing that ultimately everything will be OK. It also allows us to help others, especially those who are still living life under the spell of Maya and the illusory self (most people in the West) knowing full well that they are wrapped up in the game and the suffering that comes along with it, and that loving them and helping them is loving and helping ourselves. The great thing is that it doesn’t stop us from living life, you could still have a great Western life/family/career with this understanding, but it will mitigate all the worries, pain, and suffering entailed in such an endeavor. Even just being aware that you’re not the body or the mind makes painful experiences much more bearable. Much love!

[@ShirleyMcalpine]

Kurt honey! As a woman who's been on this path since the early 70s, please allow me to advise you to just continue being you, that raw you that I love so much! I think I've watched you since the beginning and I watch you and love you for your ability to be just who you are! I see nothing to change in you and encourage you to see what I see and revel! Thank you so much. I love you much!

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Aw thank you so much Shirley! Wow I appreciate that :)

[@Ksw4obxNC]

That is such a sweet and simple sentiment to offer him. Isn’t that statement explaining it all, that his having this crisis caused you to personally say those words to Curt. Beautifully said 😅

[@glenn-younger]

THIS is the kind of conversation that makes your channel a stand out. Your personal questions took me back to the early days of my spiritual reawakening over 35 years ago. I questioned everything and got caught up in the labyrinth of my own head. The good news is it also took me to a deep space of understanding my emotional world--which I'd shut myself off from--because, like you, I had an emotional reaction to it. Ultimately, it led me further into understanding the Unconditional Love of my own soul essence. As a result, I became a kind of spiritual scientist very much like your guest spoke about. Someone would have an hypothesis and I'd test it out in real life through every day connections with the people around me. I discovered how and which old hurts were holding me back, how to transform them into emotional freedom and illumination/understanding, how to stay grounded and present in the process. Like Dr Friston said, you have "higher" thought processes than most. It's one of the things I appreciate about you and the work you do. So as you make sense of it all using your higher thought processing ability, also remember your connection with people-especially the ones you love-and keep in touch with your feelings, which will keep you in touch with your body and help you become more aware of which emotional lens you're viewing the world through at any given moment. Once you're aware of the emotional lens, you can choose a new one if the current one isn't bringing you a sense of place, peace, and emotional freedom. For example, next time you're viewing your world through a lens of anxiety, STOP. Take a step back. Breathe. Feel gravity pulling at your body to help you be present. Then ask yourself, "What would this look like if I looked through a lens of Unconditional Love?" Does that make sense?

[@TheoriesofEverything]

This is so appreciated Glenn. Truly. Especially the following lines: " So as you make sense of it all using your higher thought processing ability, also remember your connection with people-especially the ones you love-and keep in touch with your feelings, which will keep you in touch with your body and help you become more aware of which emotional lens you're viewing the world through at any given moment. Once you're aware of the emotional lens, you can choose a new one if the current one isn't bringing you a sense of place, peace, and emotional freedom."

[@glenn-younger]

@@TheoriesofEverything I'm glad they resonated. 💖✨🌀

[@saral2329]

Yessss! I'm super excited for this! The first interview was amazing, the synergy between you two was wonderful.

[@woodpigeon7776]

Love this channel so much. I have apparently endless curiosity for these topics. Regarding Joscha Bach’s theory of “everything is a simulation” : Was discussing this with a friend and they felt anxiety about the notion . My response was “Even if it was true, nothing would change. We would still have to eat, sleep, and poop.” It strikes me as similar to teachings from the Zen tradition - notably the famous phrase “Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.”

[@1morekevster]

What an amazing amount of information from Mr Friston. And delivered in such a humble fashion. Phew!!!!

[@girlplanetboy]

Curt, it's like you read my mind and voiced my own personal psychological nightmare. I underwent the exact same phenomenon as you described experiencing. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I can certainly sense a path leading to the light beyond. Thanks to your candour and Dr Friston's wisdom, I feel so much more like my old self.

[@daleibncooper2841]

Hi Curt, a lot of these gurus advocating for ego death are driven by their own ego, for pride, status, and all the various ephemeral pleasures of this world. The Purification of the Heart is a science that generally takes an entire life’s work to master. Your statement “if it’s not loving...then use that as a sign to know that what you’re experiencing is not truthful” exactly mirrors the spiritual path of Islam, which is Sufism. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) emphasized: “The path itself is entirely good character, so whoever surpasses you in character has surpassed you on the path.” All knowledge is meant to increase you in good character, and if you find knowledge corrupting your heart manifesting in spiritual diseases such as arrogance, covetousness, envy, ostentation, resentfulness, to name a few, then know that whatever “spiritual state” you’ve experienced or whatever level of knowledge you’ve acquired is ontologically worthless to you & you’ve only deluded yourself away from The Divine Presence. “Beware of yourself, when the energy that moves you in life is actually the ego’s energy, but has found a religious/(spiritual) form of expression. That’s the most dangerous thing of all” - Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad (aka Dr. Timothy Winter)

[@andreasmuller5223]

Hi Curt. I've struggled with similar existential fears for years. A simple thought experiment got me out of this unhealthy thought pattern. Maybe it can also help you or other readers: Supposing I found out with absolute certainty that existence itself was objectively meaningless (for whatever reason), my search for meaning would be over. What consequences would this realization have for me? How would I want to live my life from there on? In a realm of objective meaninglessness, this question cannot be answered with rationality. It's a question about what feels right to my core. Would I want to end my life? Or that of other creatures? No. Would I want to treat living beings (including myself) as if they had no intrinsic value? No. But what else would I have left? I would devote my life to trying to save those around me from sliding into the nihilistic abyss. I would watch them and rejoice with them if they could experience purpose, wonder, beauty and love in their lives. (Interestingly, that's exactly what good parents do when introducing their children to this world) Worst case scenario, if all of this was really meaningless, then such a bittersweet life would be *meaningful enough* for me.

[@tomw4918]

you should check out Albert Camus, this is basically what he talks about.

[@andreasmuller5223]

@@tomw4918 Thanks! I'll check him out.

[@MegaDublinguy]

Excellent! Though I wanted to suggest a similar method which I have found useful I was struggling to put it into words. You have expressed it so much better than I would have and saved me the trouble.

[@StephenPaulKing]

This is dangerous if coupled to an authoritarian mind!

[@andreasmuller5223]

@@StephenPaulKing I agree. But I have a hard time finding a belief that, combined with an authoritarian spirit, wouldn't become dangerous...

[@jaredholland3563]

Came here from your heads up note you posted can tell I'm gonna enjoy this one

[@floccinaucinihilipilifications]

Curt, thank you so much for this interview and for sharing your experience! It spoke right to me and is a great cautionary tale. Not to stop exploring but to recognize when you need a step back, a few deep breaths, a break and as Diana Pasulka urged…sangha , community etc to help with the journey. I needed to hear all of this 🙏

[@TheLegendaryfuturman]

You have no Idea how grateful I am to you Curt, not only for having the courage to talk bout your depersonalisation experience publicly, which absolutely shook me as I can relate to it so intensely and it was surreal hearing it voiced by someone else (especially someone I admire), but also for discussing it with someone like Professor Friston who is ideally placed to comment on and address this. My experience is extremely similar except it was ignited by debilitating chronic headaches which lead me to become hyper-aware of my inner thoughts, as I am also a very anxious individual, which, when combined with a philosophical curiosity about phenomenology and the nature of consciousness, especially of the esoteric sort ( which is how I cam across your channel) eventually culminated in a complete derealisation and depersonalisation (at the time I described it as feeling like I was in the backstage of my mind watching someone else perform and analysing their performance) and, not being as wise as you are, instead of immediately realising that it was not sustainable, I was instead determined to follow the logic to its very end, and if that meant complete insanity, I was ok with that too. It did at times get extremely scary and I can relate immensely to the feeling of being afraid of your own mind, at times even feeling that your grasp on "conventional" reality becoming so weak that if feels like you are one push away from complete dissociation, I powered through regardless. What kept me going was, first, the certainty and logical validity of my reasoning meant that letting go of it would be to willingly go back to what I perceived as a state of delusion which I could not allow myself to do, and secondly, that there was also a sense of empowerment that comes with the knowledge that ultimately everything, every sensation, every impression, every emotion, and even "I", are simply models that are built from physiological foundations and that manifest in the mind, and reading about neuroplasticity led me to the conclusion what I am experiencing now is only one of the many models that I could have generated, and so I began striving to find the "optimal" model of reality, though perhaps my greatest failing was not being able to define what that model would look like, and indeed I was sure I couldn't formulate it from the perspective of the current model, especially not with the very language that reinforces this current model but I did have the gnawing feeling that that model might be so radical that it would amount to insanity, and will surely be perceived as such by anyone who hasn't acquired it. I am thankful though that, apart from one minor psychotic episode, my mind wasn't completely shattered by this experience, and I eventually came to the conclusion that we are pathetically under equipped to reason about ourselves and further experiences with and reading about referred pain, psychosomatic pain, and most importantly Anxiety sensitivity, which Prof. Friston implicitly referred to when discussing the cause of continuation of the thought cycle, have also confirmed that guiding one's reasoning about one's self purely using sensory and introspective input is bound to go wrong as this input very unreliable and indeed can be catastrophically misleading, and that the model I was striving towards, if it even exists and is indeed attainable, cannot be realised so long as I am immersed within a culture that I depend on that demands that I share its models (or at least restricts the models realisable to those that are "backwards compatible" ) to be able to survive in it. A reasonable analogy I thought of is that of the stem cell (as that state of depersonalisation felt similar to a totipotent state), that differentiate themselves based on the signals received from surrounding cells, and if these signals are ambiguous, say multiple types of cells exist (in my case the model I was trying to cultivate vs the pre-existing models I was immersed in) then the cell can become cancerous, which I did not fancy at all. And so I found my way to what you have so quickly arrived at, that since an ideal model is unattainable, and every model is as good as the next in that they are all delusion, some more coherent than others of course, why not pick the one that, as you said, is "Life affirming" that accepts things as they are and use my new found insights to polish and tweak the current model rather than attempt to uproot it entirely, which, let me tell you, is much less debilitating and doesn't take as much of a toll on my working memory. I skipped quite a few phases of my full experience above but I'm glad I at least got to put the overview of it in writing. The whole thing took 4 years and so wasted most of my early twenties and I am just now coming out of it, so it will take some time to readjust entirely, but boy does it feel great ! Thanks again for this episode man, it provided the single best closure for this chapter of my life I could have hoped for, and the last comment about smoking was the cherry on top as I now feel more validated in my increased smoking habit since I overcame my issues (only half joking :D)

[@iandonnelly522]

Aren’t we all Curt! Your a stand up chap with an open questioning mind....it’s not possible to know everything....the first step to knowledge is to know that we in fact know very little....one of the best pieces of advice for me was, to paraphrase Bertrand Russell, to look at ideas, think of them as interesting but don’t hold them to be the ultimate answer.....and your correct about the old Ego....it’s a massive stumbling block and you can see the devastating effects of this when people are consumed by their own self importance....

[@jenniferweber4336]

Curt, you are a hero in my opinion sharing your thoughts and being publicly vulnerable and genuine. I’m quite sure your openness is helping a lot of people. ❤️ Thank you. You are an amazing human.

[@george5464]

Karl is the sweetest of people. I admire his intellect so much but what I appreciate more is his wisdom - which is typified by his humility. In terms of listening to someone talk, Karl is the brightest mind I have ever come across. Big up Karl! x

[@steveagnew3385]

These kinds of discussions reflect the nihilism of the measurements of Science. Science tends toward a single objective world without any morality or ethics since Science is nihilistic and the free energy principle is necessarily nihilistic. Science changes over time because of discoveries from new measurements and those discoveries always converge into a single objective Science. The transcendental beauty of the free energy principle underpins both Religion and Science as do all of the transcendentals of beauty, truth, feeling, being, and identity. The free energy principle in Science makes it seem like there is no meaning or purpose beyond those of Science. However, the transcendentals are necessary in discussions like this; the transcendental feeling of anxiety over the nihilism of Science and the free energy principle. This discussion ponders the meaning of nonbeing with by beings and Curt mentions that he simply accepted his being and identity to resolve his anxiety over being. This is true for all of the transcendentals. We must simply accept the transcendentals even though we may wonder about their truth, which of course is one of the transcendentals that we must simply accept...

[@mobieus7]

Thank you for sharing, Curt. The progression of the self that culminates from its current situational existence is the act of completing a framework. Not everyone is able to follow the same major steps in assembly in the same order or the same way.

[@Susan-ol4ys]

Admirable honesty Curt, thank you for your courage.

[@Free-SpokenMedia]

I've been in an anxious state of being since I went to the Ottawa freedom protests. I'm afraid of losing my job, having my bank account frozen, getting arrested, labeled a domestic terrorist, etc. I've calmed down mostly but our government has done a great job of preventing peaceful protests. A video of a cop passing out after hugging protesters was what broke me down in tears. Scary times for our rights and freedoms.

[@Free-SpokenMedia]

Video of cop passing out is my latest upload if anyone wants to see it.

[@jmholthuysen]

Professor Friston’s analysis of your deep experience making sense of the world, is done in such an eloquent way that it proves just how brilliant he is. What an amazing conversation.

[@yakovleitner]

thank you so much for these videos. I'm on a similar path like you, with a less physics and more on the spiritual side of things. But mainly because of your videos i got interested a little bit in physics as well. Keep going please, and i want to let you know that I'm getting a lot of encouragement from you, your curiousness and your courageous honesty

[@cx777o]

same for me, these podcasts spark a lot of interest in the sciences :) I wish to see a world where science and spirituality can be united in a way where it enhances and broadens the way we view and examine the world...

[@dannixon247]

1:52:55 "That fragility is revealed, only occasionally, and only to some people" - beautifully put.... deep deep insight into those of us that risk to face the abyss.

[@azman6568]

I'll re- listen to this curt several times. I've followed Rupert Spira and others philosophy and have realised that the ego or the sense of being me is an illusion and it feels scary sometimes. So thank you it most probably will be the most important episode for me!

[@jimmybolton8473]

Ill trust that thankyou

[@jacquin8511]

Absolutely - I listened to the first discussion at least 4 times! I recommend Friston's 2010 paper, available as a pdf if you search "The free-energy principle: a unified brain theory?"

[@azman6568]

@@jimmybolton8473 no need to trust brother you can find out your self. Excuse the limitations in language. Try it Jimmy! Let me know what you find? Or don't find? Whatever.

[@jimmybolton8473]

@@azman6568 hey azman thankyou. No need to trust. Assume positive intent right? It’s just i wasn’t lucid in the other level or dream state. I will improve. Im glad you guys are here for me. Thanks

[@MrSolver100]

I totally understand the dissosociative issues you mentioned with regards to the mantra of the Illusion of self. I had very similar experiences when attempting to follow these practices thoroughly. It was perhaps one of the most terrifying and least productive states I've ever experienced. Luckily, I found Jung at that point though and his focus on the individual and individuation was a fantastic grounding mechanism and a much more fulfilling approach to life. The notion of 'no self' is an extreme stance in my opinion and is really a reductive approach with similar pitfalls to those McGilchrist points out with regards to reductive left hemisphere thinking...Curt is real and his show is fab :)

[@MLDawn]

This is one of the best podcasts with Prof. Friston. Really enjoyed it!

[@HeIifano]

I need to say that your explanation of your downward spiral hit me like a truck. I had what sounds like an *identical* experience, each phase exactly as you described. Questioning reality and feeling the associated emotions/guilt, becoming scared of my own mind as I also began obsessing over the actual words that I use in my thoughts. I've never been violent or suicidal but I had excessive fears that I would hurt myself or my wife somehow. This was way back in May-July for me and it really was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. It's crazy to hear you describe major parts of it so exactly.

[@Freedom-2BME]

Curt, I jumped to the end of the video to the section of you describing your experiences of 'existential crisis' do I exist, is this a dream, what is real... and you yourself realising and Karl confirming, that by discussing the experience with others rather than it circulating in your mind.. gives the ability to question the hypothesis and help bring one back into a sensory experience of reality. Watching and listening to what you went through... makes me realise the IMPACT of rarely talking about my experiences to others had on my life... and I wonder how I've survived until now... how trauma pushed me into places most should not tread... there is SO MUCH I could communicate... but WHO would understand what I experienced... I can see now that there ARE A FEW people who would... I've considered writing a play... to perform... to others... to help... to express myself... I've been too scared to tell others... for fear of being misunderstood... or thought as crazy... or.... but MAYBE communicating... telling my story.. would be a healing life affirming experience...

[@victorialoushin530]

Curt, you are doing an amazing job! ❤️ thank you for your hard work!

[@souldan22]

Great topic and conversation Curt! I think just like how observational science have laws, i.e universal truths, so does experiential science of spiritual practice. It is simply hard to find your own discovery through many fake gurus and how they then apply through your experience. What seem to be one of these spiritual truths is that only when you don't identify all that you are with only mind(logical thought and emotion) can you experience the peace and bliss of just being, the underlying layer of awareness that permeates all life. The more you identify with the noise that is thought as a result of only data input, it is very hard to ever be in control of thought and emotion. I.e it's not about shutting down thought, emotion and body but learning that you are more than those thing, can you use those aspects of life to their full potential without risking that physical attachments brings more suffering than needed in life. So it would seem that shedding the ego, simply means don't identify all you are with mind and body because then you miss the blissful state of being present when learning to quiet the mind at will. I would add that people who are academics and intellectuals, risk being fully and completely identified with that being all they are as they have placed so much weight time and energy on their logical intelligence. For those, I'd say don't exclude working on emotional intelligence, physical exercise and finally a practice that allows you to spend some time in pure awareness of a quieted mind for a complete balance in life. Wholsitic health should be equally relevant whatever your path in life is, don't you think? Yoga only means alignment/unification after all, misconceptions aside.

[@Paul1239193]

Curt: I've got DPDR, and it's REALLY kicked my butt over the years. One of the best ways to deal with it is to notice all the green things (for example) in your field of vision (or, for another example, all the things that are moving in your field of vision), then notice all the tactile feelings you have at that moment (can feel the ground under you feet, feel the shirt you're wearing, etc.), then notice all the various things you can hear, etc. etc. etc. This has helped me a lot. It takes practice and doing it multiple times. Also, see a **good** therapist. You probably wouldn't be interested in doing this, but theoretically how much would it cost to have you come to California and make a documentary?

[@litboicartier]

I love that Derealization is being talked more about now! I remember getting it when I was 14 years old and not understanding what I went through, i still have it now at 22 years old. It has shaped my whole personality and how I look at life!

[@mael-strom9707]

Most people have restless agitated minds... If sitting (zazen) meditation is not for you, try dynamic forms of meditation like Hatha Yoga or Tai Chi. If smoking or caffeine is not for you, try mindful breathing meditation.

[@darbrad3952]

Curt something similar happened me also. Which started with a bad trip (although I have been on a inward journey for the last 2 years previous so existential questions were already in my thoughts) and lead to anxiety, panic attacks and some quite terrifying thoughts. I had never felt so separate not only from everyone but myself if myself was even a thing. Using the tools of Buddhism was a good help for me that these thoughts of impermanence or the absurdity of experience are acceptable. Eventually, I have reached the point where I feel more connected to whatever this is/I am and the most freeing part was a moment I had where it was clear to me that I and all of us in this existence should not fear or feel separate from the void because I, me, you, everything and the void are one. Since that realisation, I don't get lost in the spiral of terror and confusion anymore I get blissful, warming and embracing feeling. Fear and confusion are no longer a thing because I am exactly where I should be. Doing what I should be doing in the larger system of what we and everything all are. While not having the answer to the questions that stirred me I instead fully accept it for whatever it is. And that worked for me. Curt I really admire how you opened up here about yourself. Thanks for what you do.

[@haniamritdas4725]

Wow man. This is why I support you, this level of honesty and openness, while maintaining so much dignity and making it about all of us. Because it is, about all of us one way or the other. I completely agree that delving into mysticism, esotericism, or the deeper end of any religious tradition and a large number of philosophical ones, is not for everyone. For me, the teachings and my way of hearing and applying them has left me without any faith in anything but a bemused acceptance of everything and love tying it all together. Not that this makes me any less of a monkey, or a jackass, or whatever. But the common thread between rational systems of thought is the principle of cause and effect. Or karma, action. Very important words and concepts across the board of human endeavor. I was definitely "called" to this life, but it did take years for me to actually hear my Ma's constant argument about my choices: _Not everyone can do what you are doing_ she said. I don't know what my reactions were during most of my life to this line of her thinking. But one day, I finally said, laughing, "Ma! When did I ever say what anyone else at all should be doing? I don't expect 'everyone' to do a damned thing, except whatever they are doing. What do I know about it?" It was a great relief, and not merely because she stopped saying it! Just to realize: everybody is just exactly right where they need to be right now, as far as I can tell, and if not then it is likely not one bit of my business, as far as I can tell. Quite an action saver. I love you man, thank you for your brilliant heart and mind working together.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Wow thank you so much!

[@MegaDublinguy]

Than you. Thank you. Thank you Kurt! This video is an example of the brilliance of your channel. Again you have introduced me to a concept that I would have never otherwise encountered and it has suggested to me a new way of looking at and apprehending the world. Initially I thought of skipping this video having looked up 'the free energy principle' online and not being able to make head or tail of it. But I know now from experience to put my trust in you and to at least try. Thanks to the skill of Dr. Liston in explaining things and your own skill as an interviewer in knowing what things need to be further teased out for the viewers I was able to understand pretty well most of what he said. I will be going to Wikipedia (one of my favourite website what it's detractors say about it) to get a better understanding of some of the terms he used before I watch your first interview with him. And what a lovely man he is, to be so caring and compassionate about your own anxieties. Also thank you for your honesty in opening up about them. Some people would be reluctant to show themselves to be so vulnerable but it is helpful to know that there are other people out there who also go through such experiences and I'm sure the advice Dr. Liston gave will be helpful to other viewers as well Just when I think your channel can't get any better you surprise me again.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Thank you so much, I'm so glad!

[@abcabc9893]

Karls answer is so correct. The fundamental sense of the boundary of I and other.... and rhe understanding that I is not a constant but an ever growing potential. Depersonalisation happens when people have new thoughts at a certain depth of insight that the idea of I temporarily dissolves. This is how the self grows, as the right and left hemispheres have to shuttle the new insight /terror back and forth to formulate a bridge of understanding. This is how we grow. Its to be desired and persued. Most humans are robotic and will be tonthe grave, with little attention given wven to tragedy and inevitable loss. Being frightened out of your wits is the nost exhilarating fast track way of growing....pushing the nervous system and lifes boundaries constantly to the limit....social discomfort and shame etch out the sense that you are alive. Passivity, comfort, routine and familiarity nean thebrain is as good as on standby.....pushing the personal envelope contuously and creating intense king periods of stress ....years on end....sharpen and evolve the edge of embodied functional active engaged awareness. Integrating sensory feeling and interpreting experience. This is how ones peers into life, by pushing into the cracks so the world of the hidden reveals itself. It does not reveal itself to the lazy or feaerful. Fear is the first opponent on a path of knowledge (Don Juan)....it becomes mastered and a friend or indicator of intensity and this then gives way to 'insight', the second opponent. Falling apart at the seems in the mind is how the mind grows. Terror is the fuel of construction. Over time this drains the storehouse of allostatic stress and reolves all inner pain....this is the lightness of being that masters describe But not by illumination but by doing work and keeping containment of energy that emits the repressed pain of the psychondynamics of the inner objects that drive all material that comes to the surface...somatic, cognitive, emotional. Emptying the tank takes a few decades...and it happens through event after event after event, the unconscious processes played out onto the world, faced and worked through. This emitance of inner tonouter and working theough is growth through self confrontation in the real world. No need for meditation. The inner pain is the marker of what is in the tank....it can be calibrated as it lessens over the years. 30 years perhaps of intense living may work the vast majority out. Its a sacrificial unformated life, ss flow has the be fully embraced.....as rigidity keeps the repression on the tank. Pain is a marker.

[@johnw1150]

Once again outstanding interview Curt. Thanks for all your hard work.

[@dljnobile]

So fascinating. Michael Levin is extraordinary. But speaking to you Curt: You have proven what you say, that to speak from less than your truth is to speak to no one. Courageously, you spoke. I had the self-affirming (!) realization--and maybe realization on behalf of much of your audience (?)--that I am (we are?) so attracted to this podcast for the very reasons you brought to light and discussed in this conversation; that I (we) too am (are) insatiable explorers of all that is possible in the universe and in the human being, in which, after all, the universe in enfolded. In brief, we ever seek, and can be satisfied with no less than, a theory of everything. We seek reality. And when we get tied in knots, the remedy is not pulling back but rather full further engagement with others, with nature, with life, with breath, but most of all with love--yes, yes, yes. What is more real, Curt? We love you.

[@susanhummer8268]

I’m going to need to listen to this a few times! Fascinating. Mind stretching. Awesome. Thank you very much.

[@ReynaSingh]

you explore the most interesting topics. Keep it up curt

[@lifeliked]

I fell asleep listening to this. Then I heard "existential crises" that half woke me up and I freaked out because ego death is terrifying to me. Then while half awake my mind made me think "I am not alone since this is being discussed" and went back to a some what peaceful sleep.

[@lifeliked]

Wait. I fell asleep because I was tired not because it was not interesting. Just to make that clear. It is excellent and I never want this channel to stop. My comment was only relating to my fear of ego death. About a month ago I thought the "everything" gave me life and I will have to give it back. Which doesn't sit me with well however it is what it is as for now.

[@josephhertzberg2734]

Curt, I was where you are, roughly speaking, about 20 years ago. I came at it from a little bit different perspective though, which was intense investigation into mystical Hindu and to a lesser degree Buddhist meditative traditions. I also went through a period of derealization, not depersonalization though. They are different of course. It was no less traumatic and disruptive though. I did resolve my issue, but I'll explain later below. There are so many facets of your journey I'd like to comment on. Ego dissolution is read these days as an achievement, feather in one's cap, whether through psychedelics or sustained meditation(which is a typically much slower path). This is no mere party trick, or anything to take lightly, (perceived) ego death. Real ego death is a different animal and knowing the difference is crucial. Total suppression of the ego leaves one ideally with the realization that all is one, that we all are one with the divine, the sentient intelligent white light that is everything. Anything other than that is more illusion, and quite a nightmarish one at that. If there is no me, and no nothing, and filled with dread....well then one has traded a fairly ordered and enjoyable illusion with a shit filled illusion that is uncomfortable and scary. That is not affirming and not the path. I've had a near death experience and I melted back into the amorphous white light which was sentient, contained all of the data ever/infinity and was a liquid living source of overwhelming love and compassion, and was more familiar to me than this life. I knew it was our source, I knew I was home, and the love was so strong as to render me into disintegration. That was ego death, true loss of self, but replaced by the love we all yearn for here. Love is the only 'language' capable of describing infinity, it's the only medium that has the bandwidth necessary to transmit the understanding of infinity into anything we can grok. I got over my derealization by charging it, by asking for it to happen, thinking I would learn more and more about it every time it visited me. I faced the fear head on....and it vanished like the paper tiger it is. You are strong enough, root yourself in love, that's why interacting with people pushes it away, it's the connection=love.

[@Dr.JRemington]

When I was a pretty little kid (2nd grade) I had what many would refer to as an existential crisis. Being that I was so young, my parents wrote it off as just being scared at night based on the fact that most of my deep thinking occurred while laying in bed each night. The feelings of dread and doom that accompanied my pondering ultimately gave way to intense derealization and dissociation. The destabilizing nature of grappling with the concept of death, consciousness, and infinity left me predisposed to relapsing into a dissociative state whenever I encountered significant degrees of stress. I can unequivocally say that I desperately needed spiritual guidance from a very early age, and the lack of such guidance gave way to many maladaptive dissociative defense mechanisms that have endured to this day. I completely agree with Kurt when he says that this is the most important interview to watch. It helps create a foundational framework that lends itself as guide-rails so that it’s less likely you’ll wind up in a mindset that feels like you are free falling into an infinitely deep abyss. Thanks Kurt ❤️

[@marcasmajor2927]

I have not listened to the main discussion yet. I did listen to the introduction and understand your concerns regarding easily being brainwashed into a single Gurus path to loving, spiritual enlightenment. I have aways jumped into bleeding edge technology projects during my working years so I am jumping into researching the validity of the metaphysical realm based on my own personal experiences and current publications regarding the metaphysical realm. I have spent over a year, already, researching a range of different metaphysical publications, paths to spiritual enlightenment, etc. It is NOT all hogwash. The level of metaphysical research published by highly educated people is astounding to me. There are so many careful research studies that have been done on the whole “beyond physical” existence of an eternal soul…It is definitely worth logically looking for repeating patterns in the vast amount of metaphysical research published.

[@kwood0789]

Thank you. You being vulnerable and sharing your experiences is exactly the same as I have been wrestling with lately. Having the same worries, you may have saved me from a real dark path. Much appreciated!

[@jenner9084]

Happy Family day, Curt. .Looking forward to listening to this while autocadding at work Tuesday!

[@GeoffGummer]

I found this fascinating. Over the years I have done a lot of religious study (formally and informally), and have had these moments also, where my belief system has been (I felt, anyway) so undermined that I was feeling similarly to you, discombobulated is how I felt. One of my professors said to me (probably to all the students in the lecture, but I felt like it was to me), "hold loosely to everything you learn, but tightly to truth". I have had to watch this interview in several parts, read several articles on this theory and try and explain it to several people before I watched the last hour of it, and I am glad I did. I am glad you do what you do. This could easily descend into "crack-potted-ness", but you always keep the bar high, and that is no easy task.

[@RM-sz2zw]

Curt, I just want to say thank you for everything that you do on ToE - it is so robust, yet sensitive and I admire your rigour. I too have suffered from (or been blessed with - depending which way you look at it) DPDR. It began in the year preceding the COVID-19 outbreak, worsening in the first 9-12 months of the pandemic, almost certainly as a result of me routinely questioning 'why?' Somewhat ironically, given the reference in this video to 'gurus,' what really helped me were the teachings of the one guru whose concepts and philosophies, in my opinion, are very much consistent with the sciences, Guru Nanak of the Sikh faith. That the origin/source of everything is beyond the cycle of birth/death, that life throughout the multiverse is abundant (i.e. we're not alone), that our purpose is to (i) personally experience the Creator through introspective meditation; (ii) live honestly; and (iii) share resources with the needy, in order to understand that we are all one and interconnected. This essentially helped to - somewhat paradoxically - ground me, whilst concurrently causing me to realise that all facets of creation are a constituent part of something so inexplicably beautiful that we'll barely ever have the capability to comprehend.

[@entropica]

Great and incredibly helpful interview, thanks so much to you both!

[@moespaws16]

I have panic disorder and if I’m having a hard time and get startled or shaken emotionally, I start to “slip away”. That’s just what it feels like. At first, it was so scary because you feel like you’re never going to be the same again and it sends you reeling. Scrambling to grasp to anything that seems “solid/real”, but that just makes it worse. I took the time to learn about it and talk to my therapist and we figured out it’s derealization episodes. In essence, it’s my brain forcing me to take a time out from stress. My brain is protecting me and working normally. Once I realized it’s not necessarily a negative experience, my episodes are shorter and lean towards the positive. I’m just quieter and try to enjoy textures and sounds and just go with it. 💜

[@humanbeing3337]

“Quieting the mind is like a drunk monkey trying to tame a wild tiger” ~zen Buddhist saying. “I have a particular set of neurosis which I treasure” ~Dr. Friston. Love that! Fascinating to listen to intellectual discourse on the ways in which we MUST manage the internal dialog. Dr. Friston provided brilliant depth and unique perspective on the need to shift attention away from the “machinations” of the mind. Falls exactly in line with the Buddhist practice of coming back into the body, focusing on the breath and consciously “accepting” thoughts as they float up and letting them go by without getting mesmerized by them. Ego death - recommended reading “a New Earth” ~Ekhart Tolle. Beware, that book sent this reader on a years long journey of ego death. It’s not a simple one but worth the struggle to evolve out of an egoistic existence. Still on that path. Wish you well Curt. You have begun.

[@shufflewing]

Curt! I can't thank you enough for your honesty, for your vulnerability. I feel much, much less alone and after listening to you both i feel better equipt to deal with my own existential angst when it arises. Blessings to you, my friend 🙏🏻🧡

[@TheoriesofEverything]

I’m so glad

[@shufflewing]

@@TheoriesofEverything I hope that you feel better from all that, mate, and that you managed to find the "sanga" that Diana spoke of 🙏🏻.

[@johnstickevers8024]

Curt, You ask great questions. It is really clear how prepared you are. In my previous career, I queried inventors about their inventions and it was so important to educate yourself in the inventors field of study so that you could ask clarifying questions. Great job and keep up the good work.

[@dalibofurnell]

Hi Curt, Dali here from South Africa 🇿🇦 I just want to say that you are such an inspiration to me, and I really appreciate your channel and the work you do. I respect how much effort you put into preparation, and I find every episode, no matter how long, engaging, and interesting. I often make notes. You have a beautiful brain, and you are a beautiful person . May you be blessed. Keep on keeping on 🤙🌱

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Thank you so much for appreciating

[@seanmellows1348]

The only problem I have with this entire channel is that I continually must rack my brain to come up with fresh superlatives, laudatory adjectives. I give up. This was amazing. I’m just gonna say amazing all the time now, because it’s accurate. Incidentally, my grandmother was prescribed smoking cigarettes by her doctor to address a nervous or anxiety condition which arose during World War II in London, England. I suspect this may have been relatively common at the time. It would seem that it is scientifically defensible today, perhaps even rather clever. Very much looking forward to the next chapter in this conversation. I must admit that the first podcast with Dr. Friston was insanely challenging to me, I must have rewound and re-listened to it half dozen times in pieces and sections. And now I find I must probably go back to it one more time - at least - in order to mine it for further understanding. The free energy principle still largely stares back inscrutably at me, despite the occasional flash of comprehension. Thanks so much, Curt.

[@maybe3566]

I'm right with you with the crisis of consciousness. When I was younger I developed a fear of sleep because I saw it as death, then rebirth in the morning but with the memories of my prior self. I spiral out of control alot with this kind of thing. The idea of self-sacrifice is helping me deal with it.

[@martaviar6400]

This conversation was enlightening to say the least! Thank you

[@noelomeara1255]

Greetings Curt ,you are Indeed an inspiration to many and always serves up a brilliant podcast. And no you are not going mad but rather I liken your experience to that of a radio whose antenna is continually being expanded taking in more and more band width and thus the expansion of your consciousness which has the effect of shrinking us into insignificance. I have had similar on a much smaller scale and find that taking time out and meditating on ones self and self worth brings me back into a balanced perspective. You are Indeed one nice guy and a fine human being who has a good moral compass and always has something really good to share with your audiences. Looking at you from time to time during your podcasts I can see you thinking very intensely and analysing ths data being related to you by your guests. Its extremely important to take time out during the week where you allow your mind to rest and become still not unlike a lake surface of a Winters evening that resembles a mirror of the sky and is undisturbed and serene, this is the type of imagery I use to bring equliberlium and balance back to my psyche. Thank you for your honesty and humanity. Regards Noel.

[@RagdollRocket]

This video is so important and almost no one talks about how to approach higher consciousness carefully and safely and when to take it slow. Really great advice, this video has to be the first thing any guru should send you beforehand. Thank you!

[@TheoriesofEverything]

I'm so glad!

[@grantgaylord9490]

I’d love to see another podcast with Rupert Spira in light of this conversation. I’ve talked to Rupert spira about derealization before, and he made some great points about approaching it, and also trying to delineate from a lot of new age gurus that try to see conscioussness as not life affirming. But also I think this podcast can provide some counter points. Would love to see it happen if possible! Thanks for the great episode!

[@whodatovadair1593]

I think some of the things described here, particularly what Curt is describing, is indicative of a very high level of thought. Thought that is battling between emotion and logic. Many times, the emotion is out of sync with most of the logic we try to find in the world. A lot of times, it’s hard to really empathize with other people’s emotions or why they have those emotions because the emotions of others are out of sync with how high level thinkers are perceiving the world. Now, I’m going to say something that may be controversial. Many high level thinkers are the opposite of neurotypicals (read between the lines.). AND THATS OK!!! Progress, true progress is hard to make until one can accept that the way you perceive and experience the world is slightly different than others. AGAIN…ITS OK! The struggle, the loneliness, the feeling of panic, anxiety, and fear, the feeling of being caught up in the the details of existence are all normal, but subside as you accept that your view of the world is Not neurotypical. Take it from someone who has traversed the long and dark desert of uncertainty and made it out the other side stronger and happier than I’ve ever been. Only took 42 years.

[@whodatovadair1593]

And Curt, if you ever want to talk offline about this. Let me know.

[@followyourbliss101]

i really struggled to follow this for the first hour, but being so inquisitive and stubborn, i decided to stick it out. Once it got to the bit about poking one's eyeballs, I got on board and it became much easier to follow, and i might add, a bit familiar regarding Curt's personal story that came as a result of 'thinking too much' . . . thank goodness for things like TM

[@TheCarsonJohnnyShow]

This (the latter half) was extremely important and will help many people, including me, who are going through the same thing. Thank you❤️🌎

[@polymathpark]

Studying existential philosophy in combination with embodying the lectures by skilled neuroscientists and free will deniers like Robert Sapolsky, and theorists like Joscha Bach has set me in similar states of existential "angst." Curt, the responses you have seem quite natural, and honestly more sane than my own. I also have experienced short blips of "voices." IMO, we need a type of philosophy/class that's dedicated to keeping philosophers grounded as they explore these realms of thought, because our innate attachment to the "self" necessarily comes into question, and most naturally this experience is unsettling. This is why I do not advise teaching philosophy to children. These lines of thinking can be depersonalizing but so very necessary, and I appreciate your efforts. I hope to examine this concept in more depth on my own channel in the future.

[@tear728]

Wow, I wish I had watched this earlier. I suffer from OCD - the type of OCD I have is purely mental, so extremely negative thought loops of things I don't even like to entertain. They are very painful and it's like picking at a scab that keeps itching. For years I had no idea why I experienced this - I thought I was going crazy. I was too afraid to research my problem, but one day I finally started and I ended up figuring out what was wrong with me. It was a moment that seriously changed my life because I realized what I was experiencing was not unique and that I wasn't as crazy as I had previously imagined myself to be. I think the root of my issue came from feelings of derealization I faced in my teenage years as I started to deeply think about what reality is. I am a very introverted individual and have enigmatic social skills. I can be very sociable or very unsociable. More often than not, I am a man of few words. I guess I really need to start speaking with other people and get out of my own head! Very interesting to see him specifically bring this phenomenon up.

[@vayasaberlo8]

I just want to add my thanks for this brilliant, revealing & vulnerable conversation.

[@dc2778]

This is really important and I needed to hear this badly. Thank you.

[@ljohnson7124]

I think we make too big a deal of ego death and whats more important is to feel transcendence - that we are all connected, not just alone. We all experience those exquisite moments of connection and we can experience them more. We need our ego, but we don’t need to be limited by our ego. He is right that we can become astronauts of the mind with mindfulness practice, and our mind can be our friend, even the scary parts. “Our” mind can be “our” friend. Who is the “our” that experiences the mind? The awareness behind it all, which the non dualists see as the real you, the core you that “has” a mind. So they connect more with that core awareness. From that state of connection with core awareness, the ego can be seen as a costume we wear to navigate the world, and so on that level of awareness it’s a kind of “illusion.” But only in the sense that it would be illusion to see my clothes as me. My clothes are still there. They just aren’t the full me. Karl expresses this perfectly with “I am therefore I think”

[@vikasit_vikas]

Kurt when you hear something from your distant self , thats the real you , this body is just a medium with senses to experience the matrix , but the real you won't die with the body , that real you is consciousness, don't be afraid. Explore and bubble of reality will pop one day. Thank you so much for all these videos. God bless you and miss Kurt 🙏❤️

[@Apollo_Dionysus]

Curt you talking about being on the brink feeling that existential anxiety is something I know all too well! I feel now it was what is called an ego death. I’m not sure about this as I also as Karl Friston mentions I’m not positive what ego death means . I’m so grateful for you ! I related to many of your comments on you questioning reality and going down that rabbit hole .I have OCD and I do ERP (expose and response therapy) for this you should try it ! If you want any advice please DM me am very familiar with OCD and it’s treatments and can send you some great resources . Also some psychosis or schizophrenia can be diagnosed when OCD maybe more the cause. Much love to you Curt I hope I can help you as you have helped me and many other .

[@1upSTARS]

I'm 39. Healthy, not on any medication. Very clear headed. I develop websites and my mind is sound. And when I had my son home for the first day. At about 3am, I heard him say "Save Me" Clear As Day. .... It didn't feel like a hallucination, it didn't feel like a dream, it didn't feel fake,,, It was Clear and precise as if it was as real as anything I've ever experienced. Before that moment, I never really thought much about people who say they hear voices. It hasn't happened since. So I guess once in 39 years is ok :)

[@jawshoouhm]

The explanation of derealization from the perspective of hypothesis making and evidence gathering was really impressive, I learned a lot!

[@josephclarke4432]

KARL QUESTION: Where does maths end and traditional language (like we use daily) begin and can active inference help bridge the gap?

[@deborahknox2433]

Curt, I went through my own phase of being really adversely affected by being exposed to certain teachings and practices, and it seems to me that it was wiser in the older days to keep various teachings and practices under wraps until students had the proper container to work with it. I think we need to take into consideration people's degree of embodiment and integration (e.g., do they already have a habit of dissociating), attachment makeup, etc., especially before talking to them about things like emptiness, Advaitic teachings or anything that talks about their being no self or saying that nothing is real. Would love to talk to you more about this sometime if you are interested.

[@jmholthuysen]

What a thoroughly enjoyable conversation. So funny and personal at times.

[@dr.mikeybee]

This notion of being able to select inputs is important. I'll need to mull this over, but I feel this is a key.

[@nikkioneill6377]

Thank you Curt. I've had my fair share of really scary and dark existential crisis. Haven't even finished it yet Lol but the intro was ON!!!

[@jagsittermedsimonochjobbar]

Probably my favorite video of yours, great work!

[@christopherallen9580]

Keep on keeping on Curt! Great guests and topics and you are an insightful interviewer!

[@raindogred]

Thanks Professor Karl for all your work on brain imaging/mapping. Fascinating podcast as usual Curt. bravo

[@matriiac6493]

Thank you for this

[@zemog1025]

Curt, I pray for your ascendance. You are a pure shining light of intellect. Perhaps a conversation with someone like Raja Choudhury about Kundalini Awakening may be in order to widen the field and push back if not break down the barriers that mask The Theory of Everything.

[@gospelofthomas77thpearl22]

Perhaps I will sound egotistical here but, I am very satisfied with my understanding of reality/ consciousness. When quantum particles behave differently when they are observed this gives us the answer. How we look at anything can determine its value/appearance. Things that are an illusion are the things that we ‘believe’ to be important - I’m referring to the mater/physical realm our bodies exist in. Our mind, or soul, is implanted in the flesh that is nothing like It. The issues you raise pertaining to your personal struggles illustrate the struggles between soul & flesh / consciousness & reality. I bow to the divine in you 🖖🏼

[@kennethtan6403]

Thank you and Much Love from the Philippines! Happy New Year Kurt!

[@xxxxxx89xxxx30]

"Understanding is not like a light switch" I like this :D

[@ouishi9447]

Thank you for talkling about your feelings, thoughts and worries, i can definetly relate to your situation and hearing you talk about it gave me good advice and solace.