Kenneth Williams, interviewed about Joe Orton

Kenneth Williams, interviewed about his friendship with playwright Joe Orton, for the BBC Arena series.
Excerpts taken from the episode "A Genius Like Us: A Portrait of Joe Orton", originally broadcast in 1982.

[@paulcowell7588]

Gawd bless him....stopped my car at a pedestrian crossing top of leytonstone high rd east London, must have been early eighties,who walks across but the fantastic Kenneth Williams...I called out hey Kenny and waved at him,he looked at me gave me the most exaggerated theatrical wink and carried on...remember it as clear as day nearly 40 years later...what a great British icon.

[@davidmg1925]

I think he felt unappreciated so you prob did him the world of good.

[@Britlurker]

I saw Bernard Bresslaw at Kings Cross station once. Oddly, he was dressed as a man.

[@slydoll7877]

Funnily enough I once saw Barbara Windsor walking down a street in Plymouth and she was waving, winking and calling out "Hello Darlin!" to everyone who greeted her...cars beeped and people shouted "Babs!" and she'd just respond to everyone. These people were on another level weren't they?

[@cathydoyle8804]

Thanks for that..interesting stuff..

[@robertshows5100]

I envy you

[@mikepen3477]

There will never be another Kenneth Williams.

[@TheGiokink]

I could listen to Kenneth Williams all day. What an incredible talent and left this world far too soon.

[@markevans2280]

I agree Bob the builder, I bet he had endless stories to tell

[@ricdavid7476]

I am 69 he is my favourite Englishman of my generation he had a clarity of mind that was outstanding .

[@johnsmith-rd5li]

His comments about Kenneth Halliwell are important and show that Kenneth Williams himself has a strong sense of fair play. It is difficult not to admire him as an actor but more importantly as a man.

[@AntPDC]

Indeed so.

[@NxDoyle]

If you've read the diaries and John Lahr's biography, you'll know that Kenneth H is not drawn as a one-dimensional mass of contempt, envy and jealousy. We know that the didactic dynamic between Halliwell the teacher and Orton the student was the making of Joe Orton the playwright and budding celebrity. Kenneth H was the keystone of Joe's literary success.

[@pr4442]

@@NxDoyle Who is Kenneth H?

[@Dessan01]

@Paul Richard Joe Orton’s boyfriend who eventually stoved Joes head in and then killed himself.

[@Ross1966]

@@NxDoyleyes, and like Wilde’s Bosie, Kenneth was Joe’s ultimate doom.

[@peterfarrelly483]

I wish he was still with us.

[@pr4442]

What's the bloody point?

[@vermilliongecko]

@@pr4442 Of your comment, Paul; I agree.

[@iainholmes2735]

@@pr4442 I get the reference: the last entry in his diary. Great man.

[@pr4442]

@@iainholmes2735 Thanks Ian.

[@lilcicero77]

what a remarkable man Mr Williams was

[@cadetmouse]

The calmest I've seen him in interview.. a slower paced Ken... He's great!!

[@johnking5174]

When he was not in front of an audience, and it was simply a one to one interview he was very good.

[@ProjectFlashlight612]

Fascinating to see Kenneth as himself, being serious. A whole series of his showbiz memories could have been made, and it would have been brilliant.

[@plauditecives]

Yes, I quite agree.

[@konradblades93]

Why not it's not to late plenty of folk are still fascinated by Kenneth Williams.

[@iainholmes2735]

Yes, great to hear him talk sensibly like this. Very bright chap. A treasure, looking back.

[@djgliderpilot]

A snippet of a deep intelligent conversation that exposes modern journalism and public discourse.

[@TheOceanLoader]

This man died when I was still a child, but he is now someone whom I admire for his genius. Having watched the film "Kenneth Williams: Fantabulosa", I found this interview very informative. I genuinely believe he was amazing.

[@pinnertom]

An absolute original, brilliant. I don't think he knew how appreciated he was by people. He was a true national treasure in the real sense of the word. He was also a great serious actor but never got the recognition he deserved. A class act never to be repeated.

[@Billbothebear14]

What a joy he was.. when he was not being truly outrageous. Delightful man in his troubled way. To this day, I love to hear his voice. WF

[@blankblank1635]

He fascinated me ,when I read his diaries it was very much that who he presented wasn't who he was inside,

[@edmund184]

so many are like that

[@sarahdalhousie6297]

Yes, I think there was a loneliness about him, that in his words; would 'drive him mad'. He talks of the 'madness' in his diaries. A world without love would be and is very lonely. He chose 'not to love' which just makes for an even more fascinating character, which he was, of course! To not give love or receive it would have left him feeling old, (I would have thought) and maybe that is why he could only go on for, as long as he did. I'm convinced that his body would have also been in alot of pain, especially as he aged. Again, love would have 'given off' those feel good endorphins, which he chose to live without. Oh Kenny, Kenny, Kenny, how much you are missed. RIP dear fellow

[@southseastroker]

What an extraordinary man he was. Fascinating.

[@sandramcdaniel2]

Mr Williams has excellent insight of this gifted and tragic love story.

[@stuartthomas3105]

I love this man.

[@JohanHerrenberg]

Same here!

[@silvabrindle3114]

In this clip KW feels very real. A pleasure.

[@jeremyallfrey8547]

I have always admired and loved dear Kenneth.Such a gentle soul and so so talented.Left this world far far too early.Always thinking of you Kenneth.I can just imagine how you are all making them laugh upstairs God rest your dear soul love you always Jeremy Allfrey.

[@zrobertson8862]

Kenneth Williams was so clever funny and weird a one off!!god bless him!!

[@jrgboy]

Yes, all self taught, he left school at 14 to become a trainee draughtsman, he spent lots of time in libraries gaining knowledge through books..

[@Ardenwolfe]

Mad respect for Mr. Williams.

[@meandmymouth]

Williams brilliant characterisations are so brilliant :-)

[@emmanuelwolf6568]

I miss him

[@jacquelinetillyer8666]

Oh, wonderful Mr Williams there will never be another. So funny and clever.

[@lewisgreen2957]

Someone should pen ‘Nelson Was A Nance’ and put it on in Shaftesbury Avenue. As a tribute to Kenneth W and Joe. I’d go watch it!😂😂

[@chrisevans5259]

A unique character,...and a sad one, suffered with his sexuality, and he also had a cleanliness obsession,...a tragic figure in a lot of ways,....but a great story teller ,wonderfully entertaining and very comedic and articulate,....a CARRY -ON icon, and a really funny chap,...and he's still missed to this day.......k.Williams rip

[@JohnEdwardBerry]

He was quite brilliant. He took himself out on his own terms, respect.

[@lorraineadams2024]

This is wonderful to watch. Always loved Kenneth Williams and miss him greatly.

[@joehiggs100]

Many thanks for posting, a gem.

[@frankiewilliams]

Yes it does look more early 80s then late 70s. A great interview, thanks.

[@cathalmacsiurdain7762]

This is a lovely interview. Kenneth Williams showing his sense of decency when talking about Kenneth Halliwell. Especially when you consider Mr Williams' own unhappy private situation that finally led to his death. Rest them all.

[@iainholmes2735]

Agreed. A very insightful interview. Very even handed in his appraisal of Halliwell.

[@atticusvilly888]

Met Kenneth Williams at the Barbican Theatre in 1986! What a fascinating person! Such colourful stories he told.

[@RonWylie-gk5lc]

What a great interview it really brought Joe and his partner to life, If only we had more of these

[@kesamek8537]

A genuine genius in every way superior to his BBC masters. Enduringly inspirational more than any mere icon. This is what real power is.

[@Knappa22]

While I love the chatshow raconteur Kenneth, I also find the more serious interviews brilliantly insightful.

[@mortensenegbert6619]

This man's storytelling, his wit, his range of voices, even his crisp enunciation are such a joy to listen to. What year was this interview, I wonder? Late '70's?

[@somyod2u]

" You can't have two people going out all the time or nothing gets done ! "

[@Skald82]

Great interview

[@davidchiles5331]

Everyone should listen to his biography given on youtube....amazing and so much fun to listen to

[@danstewart8218]

So interesting - thanks so much for sharing!! Big thumbs up ! 👍

[@the_trooper_72]

I absolutely love Kenneth Williams!!! Such an amazing voice, personality and creative mind!!! RIP Ken 🙏🏻❤️X

[@vinceiswatchingyou]

Beautiful winter's day

[@BNCA70]

I've just ordered Orton's diaries on Amazon having read Kenneth Williams' earlier this year. Looking forward to it.

[@MANTLEBERG]

God...how i miss him....

[@Hannahxx1971]

I'll always be glad that I was born at a time when Britain had great entertainers, originals...These days, apart from a few (actually, at this moment I can't think of any) we have a plethora of talentless wannabes who have 'struggled' through various reality shows only to fizzle out after a couple of years of guest presenting afternoon tv rubbish and airing their dirty laundry for extra cash in the tabloids, if they're lucky.

[@edmund184]

This is one of my favourite Arenas. And this scene is very funny.

[@edmund184]

6:20 presumably now days nothing is ever done at all?

[@michaelball3456]

i absolutely love this. this is Kenneth Williams at his most leisurely unraveling weaving ranting best. the perfect humming lines and wonderfully built up clips that snap but never sputter. he is talking about the king of full face asides, Orton here, but his is performance. and so we get this beautiful popping production of insight that is both intimate and revealing and yet insightful stinging quips that are entertaining as well as informing. for all of that, there is a touching real aspect of respect and caring that flows behind every soft jab. it was first fun and smirky for the heart to hear, and now there is a light rain of loss to it all. great men talking about great men and all lost in the fog now. as the world marches on. the center rises and collapses again and again. and it is always from the edge that any lasting meaning is persevered. both in its joy and bitterness. the living to mourn and remember and emulate when possible; if not the wonder, then the bravery, before the loss.

[@calamityj3634]

The expressive face and amazing sense of humour . Love KW . Please get a copy of his diaries if you haven’t read them already . Full of gloss glamour snd his own inner sadness . Complex snd lovely man

[@frankiewilliams]

79-81 sounds good to me. By the way have you seen Comic Roots? Thats brilliant. I love it when Ken sings along in the pub.

[@BelatedCommiseration]

Its an interesting fact that Kenneth Williams brings up, that I have oft pondered myself...the fact that Halliwell was so integral to Ortons creative process and development, would Orton have continued to be as creative if he had simply left Halliwell and the murder/suicide never took place? Would Orton himself have lapsed considering the creative interdependance of the relationship, which to a degree existed to the end even when the emotional dependance (on Ortons side) had long ceased?

[@filmmekker]

BelatedCommiseration We’ll never know because Halliway killed him!

[@richardl772]

The funniest man I never met.

[@th8257]

Kenneth Williams putting his finger on the problem with the sexual revolution in the 1960s. It was an overdue challenge to the appalling cruelty, intolerance and hypocrisy of sexual attitudes that has permeated Britain since at least Victorian times. But it also turned into a free for all that enabled a lot of predators. Orton himself had numerous sexual encounters with underage teenage boys, and it's been one of the reasons why a planned statue to him was cancelled. No doubt the mood of the times also enabled others such as Jimmy saville to get away with what he did.

[@kevinfowkes2327]

Yours is a good theory for straight people, less so for Joe Orton in my opinion. The "sexual revolution of the 1960s" didn't include gays, at least in a cultural sense, even though in a legal sense it did as homosexuality was finally decriminalised towards the end of the decade. The vast majority of the population remained staunchly hostile to homosexuality and most gays kept their private lives secret even long after legalisation in 1967 (coincidentally, the year of Orton's death)...this didn't really change meaningfully until the 1990s when the AIDS panic had started to blow over.

[@brianrodney5202]

I was a member of the audience in Manchester Opera House for a performance of Orton's play " LOOT ".

[@mrh8279]

Was it as bad as Kenny made out in his diaries?

[@brianrodney5202]

@@mrh8279 Yes it was, I recall feeling sympathy for the actors.

[@frankiewilliams]

Thanks for this.

[@tomhaskett5161]

Have a look at the film biography of Joe Orton 'Prick up your Ears'.

[@davidreid8075]

Lewis Morley studio above the Establishment Club in Greek Street, Soho. Lewis photographed Joe Orton.

[@admi1191]

18 Greek Street

[@ShinyHappyPurple]

I can't get over how much he looks like Fred Schnider from the B52's

[@MrGroganmeister]

Fred is younger

[@DAYGLOUKNOUKNO]

smart smart smart dude!!!! KOOL !!!

[@Sameoldfitup]

We have known the days...

[@grai]

the whole section about the old biddy writing to ask the church to put on "Nelson was a Nance" is so hilarious It's word perfect storytelling which couldnt be improved upon if you edited it as a script and its all coming off the top of William's head

[@ninethenazeing]

Yes indeed. I have uploaded that very same documentary on here.

[@johntyler8611]

A tortured comedy genius. Sadly missed.

[@joejohnson6763]

It's amazing to hear Ken distancing himself from the gay world referring to "these queens" and "homosexuals" as though he wasn't one! I know that he had to be careful professionally not to out himself or be "outed" but it's the deliberate way he does it.

[@glowmentor]

As far as I’m aware, it was something about himself he was never comfortable with. He wished it away and often felt defeated that it wouldn’t go. Sweetly, he proposed to Maggie Smith, and she was so kind to him.

[@paulspydar]

does anyone know what Kenny thought about the1970 film of "Entertaining Mr Sloan"?

[@tamesidefilming4650]

Life is all memory

[@brecans]

What a lovely couple they made.---------------Williams is really funny about the vicar story.LMAO.

[@ravimattu2922]

nice pic mate

[@pr4442]

Lovely couple??? Halliwell bashed him in the head with a hammer.

[@grant24678]

@BNCA70 I just ordered it on Ebay. About £2.98

[@frankiewilliams]

Was this interview with Kenneth done in the late 1970s?

[@Guedingen]

Many thanks. If Williams' memories are anything to go by, then it seems that Halliwell was seriously short-changed by Bennett in 'Prick up Your Ears'.

[@drparnassus2867]

Bennett makes clear that Orton owed Halliwell a lot, that Halliwell introduced him to all sorts of literature he'd never have read before, etc. He also makes clear that the guy could be pretty hard work socially, and I think what Williams says at the start bears that out.

[@bowler8]

hilarious

[@clearlake3492]

It's nice to see Kenneth talking seriously about a serious subject. He was a unique talent, but I couldn't stand so much of his work - the dire Carry On series being an obvious example.

[@philipbonner6486]

Kenneth Williams had his demons, who would not for having a father he had, like many other people who do not have happy child life.

[@TheMichellepop]

How was Ortons diaries?

[@grant24678]

@grant24678 And I've also just finished the Ken Diaries

[@dreadfulspiller8766]

Maybe if Joe Orton had lived he could have got Kenneth Williams to accept his homosexuality and find love.

[@lizvtaz6]

He was probably asexual. There is a difference between sometimes liking men sexually and regularly having sex with them. In modern day terms he would be like... homoromantic asexual? Maybe?

[@dreadfulspiller8766]

@@lizvtaz6 He was gay just GAY. People didn't need 4000 labels like they do now.

[@lizvtaz6]

@@dreadfulspiller8766 When he was young people were prosecuted for being anything other than heterosexual. Oh, what a wonderful time! Back then people did not need many labels! Indeed, there were only two labels available: "normal man" and "criminal". How dare you deny his own words and claim that you know his sexuality better than him?

[@dreadfulspiller8766]

@@lizvtaz6 Enlighten me on his words.

[@lizvtaz6]

@@dreadfulspiller8766 Ok. So, firstly he claimed to have been celibate for most of his life. This screams "asexuality" to me. But he actually had few sexual encounters with men when he was very young (clearly that was not a problem for him, he was not in denial about the fact that he liked men) yet since he turned 40 he claimes that he did not have any more sex. Therefore he is clearly into men but he does not really want to have sex with them (at least he does not really need it). It does not seem to me that he hated his sexuality otherwise he would have not been experimenting in his youth. Then, he also writes: "Living with someone always means a denial of self... you know what I think about indiscriminate sex and promiscuous trade. I think it’s the beginning of a long, long road to despair". In other words - he does not want a relationship nor does he want casual sex. So no relationship and no sex. Almost no sexual history. That means "asexual". But, he also was into men. Which makes him something like "homoromantic" (He likes men but does not really feel the need to have sex with them). This is based on his diaries. I don't really know myself, obviously. Only Kenneth Williams himself would have had a right to decide what label should be used when people mention his preferences. But it actually makes me sad that he did not live to see people celebrate diversity within the LGBT+ community. He seems to be one of those rare people that actually could have significantly benefited from having many labels to choose from.

[@copee2960]

funny.

[@westlake9096]

Never looked at ease

[@CatsandJP]

He made the carry on films with his humour always loved him more with Charles Hawtry. They made the films worth watching. Who cares how they lived their private lives they were entertainers first and foremost. Would love him as prime minister here in Oz. Just imagine!

[@LudvigIndestrucable]

Fascinating how Williams refers to 'them' in such dismissive and distant tones. I wonder what he would have made of modern society where his own minor proclivities would scarcely raise an eyebrow.

[@ninethenazeing]

Sorry, I could easily be accused of splitting hairs there. Sometime from '79 to '81 is a safe bet. ;-)

[@AnthonyMonaghan]

5 pregnancies in one week...ridiculously funny.

[@thewomble1509]

Williams didn't find Halliwell half as annoying as Halliwell found Orton...........

[@cclewes7373]

Such an erudite man. His talent was largely wasted on the screen.

[@frankiewilliams]

I see you have yes. By the way was wondering do you mind if we could talk via email? Would you like me to send you my email address through private message on here? I don't believe I have your email address. I'm George by the way.

[@frankiewilliams]

Do you mind sending me a private message with your email address in?

[@MrDavey2010]

Irreplaceable actor. Horrid man in real life apparently but what a character.

[@drwatsonca6945]

He had a lot of issues which did not help him. He had problems accepting his sexuality and that caused a lot of his problems. he also thought he should have done better work than the carry on gang.

[@sebastianmelmoth685]

An utterly repressed homosexuals - so blind to homosexuality. Desperately sad.

[@tennis5011]

Blind to homosexuality?...i am sure with both Joe Orton and Halliwell about (in particular Mr Orton), Kenneth knew full well what homosexuality was about!!

[@beetleything1864]

Not that simple. I think he found the act of sex messy and not keen on penetration. He went to Tangier and had fun with local boys with Orton et all. He’s a complicated individual.

[@adelucas4824]

He hated sharing himself and was quite open about his lack of interest in a relationship, he also found the sex act messy and uncomfortable. He was a deeply complicated man devoted to his mother, and when she died it was like losing part of his soul. He never fully recovered.

[@samgrant1925]

@@adelucas4824 Very interesting.

[@scottb4697]

What are you talking about?. Kenneth Williams died before his mother did. 😗