Kennington's Zone Change Messes with the Tube Map

[@geofftech2]

So here's the amazing anomaly. If you travel INTO Zone 1 anywhere on TfL in the evening peak (4-7pm), then off-peak fares apply instead, and if you have a Railcard too then you get an additional third off. So when Kennington was purely in Zone 2 the railcard discounted fare would have been £1.65 - but now that it's treated as a Zone 1 to Zone 1 journey it'll cost you £2.40 instead, that's 75p more!

[@roderickmain9697]

[@94tommyth]

Why would you not get discount on the zone 1 to zone 1 fair too? Is that excluded from the railcard discount?

[@oysterfarescentral]

@@94tommyth It's only when off-peak fares are charged. Between 1600-1900 it's peak fares unless travelling from OUTSIDE zone 1 to INSIDE zone 1.

[@thehaprust6312]

I like that you check on the fares charged. One of the things I don't like about digital payments (whether road, rail, or other) is that it is easy to lose track of what you are spending on travel costs. I grant that phone apps do make it easier to track such expenditures, but knowing what the rules are and then verifying correct charges is a task unto itself.

[@94tommyth]

@@oysterfarescentral gotcha, I didn't know that. Thanks!

[@SquawkGamingYT]

Battersea Power Station Station Tube Station

[@idonothaveahandleok]

Alot of **station**

[@NoobeeGaming]

Hoe many stations are they gonna make there? 3 xD

[@AnnatheBanannaa]

@@idonothaveahandleok seems that you've beaten me to it

[@whywhy6055]

What about naming it Battersea Park with an out of station interchange with the railway station?

[@benholroyd5221]

Ah but in Battersea power station tube station, is a backup power station....

[@matthewmccallion3311]

But of course, there remains the most important question yet to be answered ... will Jay Foreman be updating his Every Tube Station song?

[@meandwhoism]

I'm seriously itching no joke

[@thelonesculler]

He should do every station on the tube map once Cross-Purp-Eliz-Rail is open

[@telemachus53]

@@thelonesculler And start including Thameslink.

[@JayForeman]

Dunno. I should, I guess. Good excuse for a video, I suppose. It's a lot of faff though, just for two stations. I've got a few months to think about it. I'll think about it.

[@MindTheGap1]

@@JayForeman woah u replied quick I know the song off by heart so I could just slip in two stops

[@QuikThinx_AllThots]

I'm an American living in France, and I never thought I'd care about the London Tube maps, but it's 3am and here we are.

[@nickcaldecottgabriel3736]

That's what insomnia does to you 😂

[@POTThaesslich]

Geoff: “And that’s just very silly” TFL manager: “perfect, that’s just how we do it.”

[@thisis_mudchute]

No they did the the other way move vauxhall down

[@thelonesculler]

Just use a 3D map and have the extension going through a zone 1 tunnel underneath zone 2. Problem solved

[@geofftech2]

GENIUS!

[@dcarbs2979]

Or keep it 2D and use electrical/circuit symbols for bridge crossings.

[@满地走]

@@dcarbs2979 That’s actually really smart! I’ve never really thought about it this way before.

[@wtfispolkajuice]

Or maybe use the 1/2 zone indicator

[@nickcaldecottgabriel3736]

Or maybe put them in both zones 1/2

[@mattderynioski1434]

“If you like maps, you’re gonna love this video” *Jay Foreman intensifies*

[@NineWorldsFromDrew]

MAP MEN! MAP MEN!

[@sangyoonsim]

MAP MAP MAP MEN MEN!

[@williamhuang8309]

@@sangyoonsim Map men map men map men men

[@unionmapping4197]

IDEA: Add a striped section to the conflicted area of the map, which will mean that the area is either zone 1 or zone 2 depending on which line you are traveling on.

[@Ro99]

Like the DLR but for different zone combos

[@maxgoesracing]

@@Ro99 Schrödinger's fare zones

[@unionmapping4197]

@@Ro99 Its not the lines that will be striped though, unlike the DLR. The fare zone shading will be grey white stripes labeled Zone 1/2 or something.

[@nathanw9770]

Or they could make a special zone specifically for Battersea like they used to do with Watford.

[@siyuanhuo7301]

You came up with a similar idea to me

[@roderickmain9697]

I suppose the question is, does it matter if the line runs through a different zone if you cant get out of the train? In North America, for example, theres a bit of Canadian Railway (Railroad) which runs through the USA - complete with Canadian signs and signalling. IIRC, theres no way onto the USA "network" and trains end up back in Canada. Still, it'll be a bit of interesting silliness on the Maps.

[@sihollett]

No it doesn't. And no one seems to mind the existence of a Trams fare zone on the map that various lines on the map cross.

[@patrickmccarthy6430]

Ask the residents of the Vennbahn

[@RandomUser2401]

EXACTLY THIS!!

[@Trixtah]

Yep, that was my thought precisely. Who cares where the railbed goes if all the stations are in the appropriate zone(s)? The fare is collected at the station, not halfway down the line. Also, I never assumed the lines were "within" zone boundaries - it's not as if they bear the slightest resemblance to their path in reality on the tube map anyway.

[@lik7953]

@@sihollett technically based on TFL you have to pay for all zones you cross so it technically does matter

[@jack_edwards]

sir this video is fantastic

[@Sarana.]

Funny to see you here Jack!

[@geofftech2]

Thanks Jack! 👋👍

[@mbergstrommedia]

Me before this video: *dreaming about working as a TfL map designer* Me after this video: Nah, I'm good! *shivering in a corner*

[@Butteryback]

Watching this video as a suburban American has been an absolute trip. I don't have the faintest idea what's going on or if it's actually a problem but it's all very entertaining

[@Hard-Boiled-Bollock]

I don't know why they chose to stop the extension at Battersea Power Station, it makes much more sense just to extend all the way to Clapham Junction from the beginning

[@andrewgrave]

They evaluated that option but found it would drive too many passengers onto the Northern Line and result in over-crowding.

[@Smart1529]

@@andrewgrave But they also reconsidered it because of a potential Crossrail 2 which is proposed to serve Clapham Junction. It's a shame the money and scheduling is way too off right now.

[@ianmcclavin]

@@andrewgrave Plus the fact that building a new facility at Clapham Junction plus the extra tunneling would have added a lot of extra time (plus extra costs of course), resulting in a much later opening date. Provision has been made to possibly extend to there later, in much the same way as the Heathrow extension on the Piccadilly line was first opened to Hatton Cross first in 1975, then into the airport 2 years later, the only difference there being that the whole extension was authorised at the same time.

[@juanescobar8123]

They shouldve gone via vauxhall too

[@amanda-we9fv]

Battersea PS helped fund this extension. They want Battersea PS passengers to be able to get on an empty train with seats. If it went to Clapham Jct, Battersea PS passengers will have to stand.

[@davidangel-blair9358]

Thank you Geoff. Another great video. I so look forward to each one!

[@AndreiTupolev]

But if there aren't any stations in the Zone 2 area, couldn't they treat it like the way the Berlin U-Bahn went through parts of East Berlin and just hurry through and keep their head down?

[@oskarsrode2167]

Just put some trigger happy East German border guards there :D

[@juanescobar8123]

Well the trains arent gonna stop if theres no station to stop at

[@cigmorfil4101]

@@juanescobar8123 My first thought is Passport to Pimlico: they'll come down access points, stop the train and check your tickets...

[@juanescobar8123]

@@cigmorfil4101 but if u r not getting out the train....

[@cigmorfil4101]

@@juanescobar8123 But it is travelling *through* the zone...

[@nomadMik]

As both a map nerd and a London Underground fan, I think this is my favourite out of all your videos.

[@witerabid]

Well, there is a very simple solution to the map problem: Tell Matt Parker about this problem and by next week you'll have the new tube map on a coffee mug without any weird zoning magic being necessary. XD

[@eight6155]

However, it will only work on the coffee mug because one of the lines will go up the inside of the handle.

[@mst4309]

Beautifully specific video for the taste of people like me.

[@myusualnickwastaken]

In Berlin, the zones are A, B and C, but you can't buy tickets for a single zone, only AB, BC, or ABC. That makes zone B kind of like London's Zone 1/2 (if you imagine 1 = A, 2 = C and 1/2 = B). So you could draw Zone 1/2 as a zone on the map, instead of having to put everything in Zone 1/2 along the boundary between Zone 1 and Zone 2.

[@Mikeb1001]

Sounds like bloody Manchester, where it costs more to go into Zone 1 (city centre) than any other zone, despite the fact our mayor wants to encourage us to use public transport. News flash:ripping us off isn’t going to do that!

[@iAmTheSquidThing]

Let’s move Vauxhall into Zone 1¾

[@hanstheexplorer]

​@@iAmTheSquidThingAnd make Chesham 9 3/4? (Insert the thing here)

[@quantisedspace7047]

If you only want to travel wholly within Zone B, how does one determine whether to get a Zone AB ticket or a Zone BC ticket ?

[@myusualnickwastaken]

@@quantisedspace7047 AB is cheaper than BC

[@sihollett]

If this is really an issue, they just have a Z1/2 zone for Kennington, Elephant and Vauxhall like they have a Z2/3 one in East London.

[@Smart1529]

Facts

[@fumthings]

isn't the thing about a zone 1/2 that you expect to be charged the lowest fare? eg if you travel from z2 to z1/2 that is just a z2 fare?

[@sihollett]

@@fumthings yes, that's how it works (also z1 to z1/2 is a zone 1 fare). The three stations I listed are already in zones 1 and 2, so it's just changing the cartography from boxes on the zone boundary, to showing it as a different, both zones, zone.

[@nickcaldecottgabriel3736]

And also have them in both zones 1/2 Nine Elms and Battersea Power station

[@antonkutuzov5789]

I love how at the end of the day the argument is “we can all agree that is just silly” :)

[@DaveDaveson]

and all because developers want to say batersea is zone1 because they can sell flats for more money. Meanwhile in east they made shore ditch high street the single zone1 station on the old east london stretch of the overground in order to charge more to go north/south.

[@richiehoyt8487]

Yes! I've lived in Rep. of Ireland for the last 20-odd years but that 'hobble' you've just described reminds me of the time back in the '90's when they re-jigged things such that stations that had been on the zone 2/3 boundary were now exclusively zone 3. I'm nearly certain they pulled the same move with stations that had been on the Zone 1/2 boundary as well - but I remember the former particularly as it was hitting me in the pocket. Thing that bugged me about it though was it just seemed like such an artificial and obvious ploy to raise fares; you could almost say they had just magic'ed it up! And now, here's me thinking these current rezonings represent a small break for passengers, albeit only because TfL painted themselves into a corner; in reality, turns out to be just another 'Chinatown'- type wheeze! (That's Jack Nicholson 'Chinatown', not 'Up West' Chinatown :-) )

[@cigmorfil4101]

Wasn't Willesden Junction shifted for precisely this reason. Being in zone 2 it meant some journies through it were Z3-Z2-Z3 for one stop. It was shifted to being a Z2/3 boundary station. Why isn't SHS a Z1/2 boundary station?

[@travelswithjess]

Great video Geoff! I look forward to visiting Nine Elms Station and Battersea Power Station Station Tube station when they fully open 😀

[@juanescobar8123]

*Battersea power station station tube station

[@callumstack2802]

Make the new stations Zone 2, TFL deserve the 10p for making my head hurt this much

[@siyuanhuo7301]

Put a less gray section somewhere between Kennington and Nine Elms and make it zone 1&2. Then, overlap the National rail service over that area.

[@jfwfreo]

These really should be Zone 2 (same as how Shorditch High Street should be Zone 2 as well). It wouldn't surprise me if there is some kind of deal that requires them to be Zone 1 for some reason (similar to the deal that required Shorditch High Street to be Zone 1)

[@slix88]

@@jfwfreo wouldn't be surprised if the developers negotiated for it to be that way. No way can you impoverish the overseas investors in flats with a Zone 2 labelling!

[@cigmorfil4101]

Or zone 1/2 stations?

[@a1white]

@@slix88 it’s exactly that I’m sure. So they can stick the label of “zone 1 luxury housing” on the unaffordable flats. Realistically we’re all be subsidising that now. Geographically they should definitely be in zone 2

[@Mainyehc]

Yep, putting it as an exclave of Zone 1 seems to be the most sensible way to go about it.

[@dorsettyke]

But to get out of the exclave the line would have to go back into Zone 2?

[@C.I...]

@@dorsettyke Really doesn't matter if a line is in zone 1 or 2 - you can only embark/disembark at a station.

[@highpath4776]

@@dorsettyke Lesthoto comes to mind. Or Vatican City

[@ooglefluffg857]

I agree, this seems like more of a self-imposed problem. A line passing through zone 2 between stations on the map makes no functional difference.

[@fumthings]

@@ooglefluffg857 depends what the imposed rules are. Logically if you travel from a z1 station to a z1 station you expect a unit fare. but if the train travels through z2 and back to z1 the rules may charge a 2 unit fare. its kind of strange if the zones on the tube map are supposed to help you estimate your fare, why is the difference between the white and the light grey almost invisible?

[@DasSkelett]

You know, netiher do I live in London, nor do I plan going there anytime soon. But KZbin still decided to recommend me this video, so here I am. And I liked it.

[@Kiwi2703]

Title: "You can't draw it on a map" Video: *draws it on a map*

[@fubnairs]

TWICE

[@tariqjalil230]

Forget the Nine Elms, this reporter is a very very very pleasant personality, you listen him doesn't how long but you never get bored or tired

[@jbwasted]

You'd think with the amount of videos you do on the London Underground they'd at least give you an unlimited oyster card or something! Geoff Marshall has to regularly plop £10 on his oyster card just like the rest of us 😄

[@bluemountain4181]

Hopefully he can at least claim it as a business expense and get the tax write off

[@cityuser]

As a non-Londoner, can you not fill it up with like £100 or some other ridiculous amount so it won't run out?

[@hoixthegreat8359]

@@cityuser Most people don't even use pay-as-you-go oysters, you can just use apple pay or your card just fine nowadays, or get a 1-mo / yearly pass. I'm pretty sure he just uses them in the videos only so we can see the prices more easily.

[@Septimus_ii]

I'm sure he has a main oyster card, but it's useful to use these £10 ones to clearly show the cost charged for individual journeys

[@jermainelong1843]

@@cityuser £90 maximum

[@notacaulkhead]

This video is both incredibly interesting and incredibly boring. Right up my street (or should I say right up my track?). You have won my subscription, bravo sir!

[@thehaprust6312]

I have a soft spot for Battersea Power Station, both because (predictably enough) I like "Animals", but also because it is one of the most immediately recognizable landmarks when flying into London. You're like "tower blocks, train tracks, suburbs, roads, oh hey! it's Battersea Power Station!"

[@thehaprust6312]

Admittedly, after the Thames itself.

[@asimahmed807]

Im convinced This is the only guy who could make stations and trains so interesting 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@pete9818]

Can't believe I'm barmy enough to watch this! Bring on the next one

[@johnnylyttle]

At some point, the mapmaking consultants are going to need to explain this to their TfL client, and they are gonna be so glad that this video exists.

[@FPL_Bottler]

For the rail map: just move Kennington station up (so the Bank branch needs to move up a bit too, at least at its bottom), and move Vauxhall station down (needing the SWR line to move down a bit). Then, you can have the Northern line Extension pass to the north of Vauxhall on the map. Problem solved. (even if not geographically exact).

[@stephenholt4670]

Incidentally, @Geoff, you've noted the problem with the SWR line passing through zone 1 between two zone 2 stations, but the exact same thing applies to the Victoria line between Stockwell and Vauxhall, so I believe the problem exists on both maps and can also be solved on both by moving Vauxhall to below the northern line.

[@tmb8807]

Just looked at the latest map and it's basically exactly what you predicted, except the shading of Zones 1 and 2 around Kennington and Elephant is bizarrely noncontiguous. The crux of this is that Battersea and Nine Elms should not be in Zone 1 and putting them there is a silly decision. The things we do for funding.

[@gormster]

… oh yeah, that’s weird. the shading is contiguous, but it’s definitely weirdly shaped. It jumps up halfway through the label for Kennington and then follows its connector bar downward, then follows the northern line northeast to Elephant. It looks like a mistake tbh; the shading should just continue straight across through Kennington’s label, then tick up briefly (parallel to the northern line) to meet elephant’s label horizontally. I guess if they’re really concerned with the idea that it might look like you’re entering zone 2 between Elephant and Kennington you could keep it running along the line between them. But seriously, who cares? No one is scrutinising the minutiae of the tube map to try and discern the fare they might pay.

[@tmb8807]

@@gormster I think you're right, most people won't be doing that. But they decided to include the zones on the map, so they should do them properly. In fairness the architects of the map were put in a pretty impossible position, which I guess is what this video was all about!

[@hywelw]

Brilliant! I hadn't realised that London Underground were opening themselves up to a special wormhole like this with the new extension! As a map hound (and as you know, Geoff also a fan of the Underground) this is a very interesting conundrum indeed!

[@proudvirginian]

Put a zone circle around those stations as though they're an island in a different zone

[@Jibberuski]

2:10 Why does it matter if the extension goes through zone 2? There are no stations while its in zone 2, so that should be fine..? The alternate solution at 2:25 has the same problem but opposite. The blue line passes though complete zone 1 before going back to zone 1/2. I don't get why these aren't both acceptable, but I especially don't understand why one is okay but the other is not.

[@makkari1]

It matters because a lot of costly lobbying has taken place to ensure that the two new stations are in Zone One. It doesn't matter for TfL, but it matters for image reasons for the developers. This will, OF COURSE, be of massive importance and benefit to truly local people, and not those who love crushed avocado on toast from Waitrose.

[@K-o-R]

_Thumbnail is literally the new Northern Line Extension drawn on a map..._ But wait! It's not that simple!

[@steveaxham]

Great video Geoff as ever...... but it doesn’t half hurt my head 🤣🤣

[@cidersocialism6714]

Is there still going to be an OSI (out of station interchange) between Battersea Power Station and Battersea Park? If so that map could look even messier (how many OSI's involve stations in different zones?)

[@MatthewPlato91]

One thing that I haven't seen discussed much- what of Charing cross branch trains down to Morden? Are they going to go completely in anticipation of splitting the branches into two lines someday? Then what of the night tube when that eventually returns- presumably they won't run them on the bank branch so will Morden lose its night service? And isn't the bank branch having to close for some time due to reconstruction of Bank station?

[@jatterhog]

This extension is just like the yellow line in Stockholm. New subway branch to trendy areas :)

[@micaerawalakira9949]

The next station is Battersea Power Station where this train terminates exit for riverboat services from Battersea Pier

[@voodootrois]

It will probably look very silly. But to someone who's drawn isotherms on a mesoscale weather map, it doesn't look all that silly.

[@JeremyJacobsPresenter]

My life is now enhanced. Keep up the good work Geoff.

[@mh_dot_fm]

I think lines between stations going through zones on a map realy is the least important thing here. For passangers only a location of a station matters, line itself technicaly can have any twists in real life if it works. Descibed here wouldnt ever happen if every intersection of lines geographicaly would have an interchange station. But there it is not the case. Also practically it wont be an issue since fare charge system alredy works on desiding cost for each station pair

[@nocentertainment666]

I am so excited 😆 Geoff

[@kiranbahra]

Also with the map you showed for the tube that was "correct" it didn't work as it showed the tube between vauxhall and Stockwell as zone 1 but this should be in zone 2

[@geofftech2]

That ... is a VERY good point!!

[@ianwalker1966]

@@geofftech2 Slightly off topic, but if Walford tube station in EastEnders actually existed, what line would it be on and roughly where do you think it should be located on the tube map?

[@Alto53]

@@ianwalker1966 awesome question!

[@colmx8441]

@@ianwalker1966 Just west of Walford East I'd imagine.

[@olivekid100]

Quality content I came to see and I'm not disappointed!

[@sihollett]

So if I travel to Morden, I have to pay a tram fare as the Northern line crosses the Tram Fare Zone between South Wimbledon and Morden?

[@highpath4776]

Indeed that is the confusion, where LINES run through zones whereas the stations are in DIFFERENT zones.

[@sihollett]

​@@highpath4776 Well yes, hence why I gave an example of the same issue that has been on the map for several years - seemingly without confusing people.

[@fetchstixRHD]

I find it weird that Tramlink is highlighted in its own zone, rather than just placed as it is and a note that says "on the Trams, tram fares apply" or something.

[@ianmcclavin]

Yes, I was about to say that they found a way around a similar situation with Tramlink, so doing a similar exercise here should be feasible, even if they do end up shifting Vauxhall Station a few metres on paper!!

[@cigmorfil4101]

@@ianmcclavin I hope it's not a few *metres* as even an A3 map (0.42m × 0.297m) can be a bit unwieldy

[@jordanweir7187]

freakin love these map videos sheeeeeeeesh, nice work

[@davidbull7210]

What's bothered me latterly is the matter, see, of whether Battersea Power Station Station stays stationary or will clatter down and batter me.

[@alangaming2003]

Doctor: Battersea power station station tube station doesn’t exist so it can’t hurt you Geoff: 0:01

[@Piter_Play]

you should make a video about London's lost narrow gauge railways

[@zork999]

What would Mr. Percival say about that?

[@philipwhiuk]

The solution is not representing Zone 1/2 as a line but as a hatched zone - which is done elsewhere when you have multiple stations on a line "on the zone boundary". See East London.

[@zachmakesstuff9866]

“Where are you?” “Battersea power station!” “The area or station?” “Battersea power station station”

[@highpath4776]

i have had problems conversing with someone. I am in the car park at the station in Crewe. My friend- I am in Crewe station car park. (they are on different sides of the station and covid one way played havoc in may last year.

[@michaelhall6178]

The only way you could make it work is by considering "passing through a zone" as meaning "passing through a station in a zone". In that scenario, the geographical map at 3:53 would be absolutely fine as no rules would be broken - the tracks between Queenstown Road and Vauxhall would be geographically within zone 1, but it would still count as a journey from a zone 2 station directly to a zone 1/2 station.

[@fumthings]

exactly. depends what the exact tfl rules or government regulations say. So the map needs to show the information in a non misleading way.

[@LouisOnAir]

What if the Northern line never crosses the Victoria on the tube/rail maps? Still geographically appaulling but zone 2 is saved.

[@Wildcard71]

This would only work on a tube only map.

[@Nova-gk1wl]

This is probably what they'll end up having to do. Or alternatively a "multiple zones" stripe like in East London, around Stratford.

[@charlie.dowd-lebow]

@@Nova-gk1wl I agree about the mult zone strip.

[@juanescobar8123]

But theyll have to show the OSI at Battersea park

[@mikemoreno4469]

Very interesting, Geoff. I love your videos.

[@tompeled6193]

3:10 Geographic accuracy is more important than not looking a bit silly.

[@highpath4776]

Was there not a map that broke the north/south of river divide or something on one of its diagramme printings?

[@rogerphillips7270]

London Tube prices are so expensive! A single fare in Zone 1 is around the maximum non-border crossing fare in Hong Kong.

[@STE_Extras]

Battersea Power Station Station. Wow. TFL are really smart🤦🏼‍♂️

[@cybro8925]

It'll probably be something weird like Battersea Power Station Underground Station

[@acozkan]

Battersea Power Factory maybe?

[@STE_Extras]

@@cybro8925 but still. It could just be called Battersea or Battersea Park. There's literally no need to have 2 "stations" in its title.

[@AllThingsRailways]

Or Battersea Power Station^2??

[@matthewmccallion3311]

I suggest an alternative to reflect London's musical heritage: Pink Floyd-Animals station

[@katrinabryce]

You could show the Northern Line extension heading north from Kennington, and staying to the East of Vauxhall, which would be completely inaccurate from a geographic point of view, but would work for getting all the connections and zones right. The South Western Line from Vauxhall to Queenstown Road could be rerouted to head south from Vauxhall, then turn round and head west to Queenstown Road. That might help with fitting other lines in. I don't think the South Eastern Line matters, because it is crossing a zone 1/zone 2 boundary, and it could do that anywhere.

[@GregRobsonUK]

Does creating zone 1.5 help?* * I seem to remember one of Geoff’s previous videos saying that zone was represented by 4 binary digits in the Oyster system (15 zones maximum after one was reserved for system purposes if I remember correctly?)** ** I live in Birmingham. That’s how addictive Geoff’s videos are! 😂

[@AaronOfMpls]

"** I live in Birmingham. That’s how addictive Geoff’s videos are! 😂 " I live in Minnesota in the US and have barely even been to Canada -- and I still find these fascinating, especially with how Geoff presents everything!

[@sihollett]

The issue isn't the zones the stations are in, but cartographic fudges vs various pedanticisms (geographical realism on a diagram vs people wrongly thinking that you are charged for the zones you cross through on the map). So no. But then again, treating Vauxhall and Kennington (and Elephant) as a separate 1/2 zone on the map, like how East London has a big 2/3 zone for stations that are in both zones, is the way to do it. So yes, sort of.

[@2H80vids]

@@sihollett But you 𝒂𝒓𝒆 charged for passing through zones on the map, that's kind of the point.

[@sihollett]

@@2H80vids No, you are not. You are charged for the zones you actually travel through. The map doesn't set fares, merely shows a (simplistic version) of the actual fares. Sure, there might be confusion if the map shows you going through a zone you aren't actually travelling through. But until yesterday, AFAICS, no one seemed to think that - despite there being such a situation already on the tube map thanks to the Trams Fare Zone (and it's worse on the rail & tube map - more cases, messier cartography).

[@SmokeyBCN]

there are maps on wikipedia that show zones transition stations in a green shade, and they group vauxhall, kennington and elephant & castle all in one big green zone 1/2 blob, which looks fine because then all you have to do is make sure the blob hugs the border.

[@Nitroburner01]

Geoff: "...we can all agree, that's just very silly" Me: "No, not at all"

[@mopslikvonstein]

Does it matter so much that the line goes through a zone color? As long as the station dots are in the correct zone color? They could also give the line a white stroke to indicate that while it's passing a grey zone it still counts as a white zone line. Easy fix.

[@nathanw9770]

Here's a better title: You can draw the Northern Line Extension on the tube map but it will look ridiculous.

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

I don't know about you but I'm not sure how I'm going to sleep at night now you've pointed that out.

[@tyrozone5]

Why can't they just make Nine Elms and Battersea Zone 2 stations. That will just make things easier (In my opinion)

[@transitcaptain]

I agree

[@S404_44]

I believe the investment contract with TfL (£1bn of the cost is financed by investors/developers) stipulated that stations have to be in Zone 1

[@meandwhoism]

they can't up the price i believe

[@sabinebogensperger1928]

I was wondering the same...

[@highpath4776]

@@S404_44 For Kudos, not fares as such - but the extension has to be paid somehow. OF course if someone had just dug a foot tunnel from BPSS to Pimlico as any sensible person would have done - maybe with a travelator, there would not have been this fuss.

[@paulinehedges5088]

You make something really complicated quite logical. Thanks Geoff

[@acleray]

I think you would call this situation "SNAFU"

[@highpath4776]

Very appropriate for the USA Embassy

[@blairleipst4508]

Or FUBAR

[@captaindun]

You’re really good at drawing quasi-tube-maps @geoff!

[@jonassebastian]

Well, as long as there’s no stop in zone 2 it doesn’t matter in my opinion, if the line only “transits” zone 2...

[@quantisedspace7047]

Where do you get the idea that a line connecting two stations in one zone must itself be wholly contained within that zone ? Zoning of a line would only make sense if there is at least one intermediate station in a different zone. My preference would be to make zone 1 and 2 into one big zone.

[@oysterfarescentral]

You can't put Vauxhall at the top of a zone 1 sausage because then you'd have to charge zone 1 for Vauxhall to Stockwell and Brixton.

[@sihollett]

You don't *have to* charge more. Merely it might be read that you would be charged more.

[@oysterfarescentral]

@@sihollett If you didn't have to be charged more then I'm sure they'd only charge zone 2 if going through Shoreditch High Street, which they don't.

[@sihollett]

@@oysterfarescentral but there you are going through a Z1 station. Here you aren't leaving Z2 other than on a map. A map that already sees you leave Z4 for a Morden-South Wimbledon journey.

[@andrewgarner2224]

I now understand the saying 'First world problem' thank you

[@georgerutherford24]

Kennington Station on Braganza Street-what a name ❤ Also see why thrifty cricket fans travelling south go to Vauxhall rather than Oval 😆

[@highpath4776]

Does that not depend where you start from , most Surrey Supporters would go to Vauxhall Mainline station.

[@georgerutherford24]

@@highpath4776 Probably but as a Surrey member who once caught a few overs play between planes at Stansted,I’m probably not the best person to judge.

[@juanescobar8123]

Oval is closer but if u go to vauxhall u can go on the victoria line and national rail to surrey

[@_Beamish]

One really obvious thing I think Geoff hasn't considered is that the idea that if a journey starts and ends in Zone 1 or Zone 1/2, the entire area that the train runs through must correspond to the zones of the stations. That is, a journey starting in Zone X and ends in Zone X cannot pass through Zone Y.

[@RaRa-eu9mw]

This might be a stupid suggestion but.... at 4:01 you show a map. Why not just push Battersea and Nine Elms over to the right? Until they no longer cross under all the other lines. It would create the visual impression that Nine Elms is South East of Vauxhall as opposed to South West, but there's millions of those incorrect geographical impressions on the tube map. You could even shorten the length of horizontal river, and perhaps put all lines diagonal-/ for a bit before diagonal-\ to allow Battersea to push into and underneath Vauxhall, so visually it is still close to Battersea Park. Seems feasible?

[@mattwoodphd]

Why does it matter if the line goes through a different zone on the map? As long as it's clear that the stations either side are in the same zone.

[@danielmohammed1510]

Is it not relatively straightforward to put the NLE on the tube + rail map if you completely toss the geography out, all it has to do is shown as not crossing either the South West Railway line or the Victoria line?

[@norbitonflyer5625]

As you suggested for the Tube Map, on the all lines map show the NLE crossing the SW main line and the Victoria Line north of Vauxhall and then the 1/2 boundary can run through Vauxhall and between Nine Elms and QTR. You need to think in 3D - at the point where the Northern Line Extension crosses the Victoria Line, the Zone 1/2 boundary passes above the NLE (In zone 1) and below the Vic (in Zone 2).

[@I_am_Allan]

Easiest way to do it ... scrap the current zones. Put a dang compass on the center of London ... draw a perfect circle x distance (say, 5km in diameter), everything in size that, is Zone 1. Move the compass outer arm 5km further out and zone 2 is drawn. Keep doing that. Then again, I have ADHD, and I prefer simplicity. LOL

[@sweetestperfection90]

Re: going in and out of a zone... they have demonstrated themselves to be perfectly capable of doing that on the East London Overground at Shoreditch High St., much to my chagrin...

[@nickcaldecottgabriel3736]

The long maps above the seating on Northern Line trains are also wrong; as it clearly shows you pass thru zone 1 between Oval and Kennington. Surely putting both new stations in both zones would solve this? I'm very surprised you didn't think of that first!

[@n1thmusic229]

2:08 actually that could work just say that above ground it's zone 2 but when you go over 15 metres below ground, the zone shifts, problem solved or just pretend you don't go through zone one into vauxhall when you do, if there were a station there it would be a problem but there isn't so TFL can act as though it never went into zone 1 as there's no station in that area. 3:46, same thing can be done there

[@mcgherkinstudios]

I believe there is also due to be a circular section of Zone 1 located around Oval, on the geographic map.

[@AchyutChaudhary]

TfL have spoken to me that they might consider showing Battersea Park station on the Tube Map (finally) as the 112th London Overground Station as an Out of Station Interchange (OSI) with Battersea Power Station Station......wondering how that might look on the Tube Map :)

[@juanescobar8123]

Yessss finally. They could show it similar to the olympia branch of the district line with the same pattern

[@pikachu8508]

The solution is simple: In the current tube map you can see there are several zone 2/3 Jubilee line and DLR stations, TFL actually drew zones 2/3 to fit those stations there. The similar thing could be done here by drawing Zone 1/2 and put Kennington and Vauxhall inside.

[@MichelleBradley]

I would think that as long as the stations are shown with the correct zone shading, it should not make much of a difference if the drawn line traverses through zone 2 to get to a boundary station as long as the originating/terminating station along the extension is clearly shown in zone 1. How many people are going to think that because a train travels through but does not stop in zone 2 that it is now considered a zone trip because the line on the tube and national map shows a small portion of the line crossing into zone 2 without a stop in zone 2? There may be a small amount of confusion at first, but I think people will get used to it.

[@baruchpinnick811]

Blessed be the mapmakers. They are the only ones who can draw the nations together.

[@1963TOMB]

Nah: blessed are the cheesemakers!

[@crispinleung]

They will just have to add a zone 1/2 area like they did for the dlr in the east

[@dbmag9]

The Tramlink exists in its own special 3/4/5/6 zone; could something similar be done here?

[@sihollett]

It's a special fare zone rather than a 3/4/5/6 one (it used to be though before Oyster, IIRC) - in reality it charges as part of the bus network (flat fee, no zones, hopper fare), rather than the train network. But yes, something similar could be done - lines crossing zones on the map that they don't enter in reality. Until this video, I doubt anyone thought that you would be charged for crossing a zone on the map without stopping, as no one thought that you'd get charged a tram fare when travelling to (for example) Morden and so crossing the tram fare zone. If that zone crossing is actually a problem, the obvious solution to that problem (missed by Geoff, caught by dozens of his commenters) is another similar thing. Like how Tramlink used to be a 3/4/5/6 zone bubble, a 1/2 zone bubble (like the big 2/3 one in East London) would fix it simply and elegantly.

[@gwf06]

I only left Battersea four years ago and I can’t believe how much it’s changed.

[@UmerAhmed99]

Why have they not made the new stations as Zone 1/Zone 2 stations like Kennington and Vauxhall?

[@trickygoose2]

That's a good question. Is it the case that other Zone 1/Zone 2 stations were originally in Zone 2? I assume no stations have ever been in 2 zones from the the time that they were opened?

[@antprr2884]

Some stations were always in zone 1&2 since the introduction of the zones... Notting Hill Gate, Elephant & Castle, Vauxhall, Earl's Court.

[@Fluteboy]

2:24 - The Battersea Pen!s