LDS historian: Be ready, the Church is changing

[@corydrichmond]

“God left the world unfinished for man to work his skill upon. He left the electricity in the cloud, the oil in the earth. He left the rivers unbridged and the forests unfelled and the cities unbuilt. God gives to man the challenge of raw materials, not the ease of finished things. He leaves the pictures unpainted and the music unsung and the problems unsolved, that man might know the joys and glories of creation.” Thomas S Monson

[@danielburns4483]

@@corydrichmond stunning quote. thank you for sharing.

[@MorganRhysGibbons]

I hate this quote. Not originally from Thomas S. Monson, by the way.

[@natedawg2020]

@@MorganRhysGibbons Lol why would you hate this quote?

[@louisepetzer4310]

.

[@mormonolog]

My favorite quote from the prophet. Hard and consoling at the same time. Which basically, to me, means it's... true.❤

[@jacoblines6364]

I love Captain Moroni's approach in Alma 43. He asked the prophet for revelation AND still sent out spies to watch the enemy.

[@DedeMattix]

Brilliant reminder. ❤

[@keystonelds]

Love this.

[@Chris27883]

Man I'd never thought about that! I love it!

[@grooveecard]

Great analogy! Never even considered that before.

[@drizzt8965]

Exactly

[@winonadavies9201]

I have to admit that I have multiple strong reservations about Ben's discussion. I AM college educated with a Master's degree. My BA is in history and philosophy. My Master's is as a Mental Health Clinician. One big reservation I have is that history is research in the primary documents but largely assigning meaning to those sources. I'm glad we have the Joseph Smith Papers but don't necessarily agree with the "experts" on the interpretation or meaning of what's in the primary sources. I also understand that the historians perspective determines what sources are included in any study or book. I'm also old enough at 66 to recognize that the "experts" are almost always found to be wrong in some aspect by new "experts" as time goes by, who are then also shown to be wrong by even newer experts. Despite Ben's assertion, a PhD is no reason to trust someone's opinion on interpretation of information, or for that matter, on what the information even IS.

[@PatSmart-uk4vz]

While I see your point as entirely valid, with 'experts in the field' to represent virtually _every_ perspective nowadays, it's pretty clear the leaders in the past were prayerful and selective about who they consulted with. I trust our current leaders to be as wise.

[@benzun9600]

​@@PatSmart-uk4vzyet the brethren pushing the covid vax was a clear indication they listened to the wrong experts and missed revelation

[@MisterBrewer]

That's why we needed prophets, seers and revelators, which the church is now admitting they dont have.

[@lauriesmith3443]

​@@MisterBrewer Really..is love to hear your thoughts on this statement.

[@janedoe6704]

@@MisterBrewer That never happened.

[@shawnbrigance3993]

As a Catholic convert, this is one of my favorite podcasts, using reason, guided by the Holy Spirit. Thank you

[@BryceCarmony]

What convinced you that God is a creature?

[@MickDees]

@@BryceCarmony?

[@3848sdgriwb]

@@BryceCarmonythe Bible is what did it for me

[@BryceCarmony]

@@3848sdgriwb the Bible convinced you God is a creature?

[@BryceCarmony]

@@MickDees yes?

[@Matilda422]

I had two experiences , one I was giving a talk and the other I was teaching a class. One when giving a talk I mentioned something and the Holy Ghost whispered to me saying”that’s your opinion” I felt so bad for a longest time buy later learned that He just reminded me that I should prepare well and make as much research as I can bearing in mind that what I speak someone else might use incorrectly or hold on to it

[@RealAdvocateForLiberty]

That happened to me too recently, in a text to friends. Thank you HG for letting me know I was wrong.

[@ThreeD.s]

I’m glad I’m not the only one! I was teaching gospel doctrine when I said something that was my own thoughts. I did immediately say that it was just my opinion but I have felt guilt since for sharing when I was not really inspired to say it. It comforts me a little to know I’m not alone here😉

[@michaeljhuntsman]

When giving talks I try to stick with the scriptures and the living prophets rather than my own ideas

[@natachamusser]

Unfortunately, there are many opinions being mixed in the teachings of the gospel. It's important to be humble enough to let those you told that you misspoke. Alma is a prime example of mentioning the errors of his way to people after his conversion. Our conversion happens one teaching at a time, one prompting at a time.

[@schweizer1940]

I am 85, since my conversion as a young 18 year old Soldier I have been blessed with many personal revelation's,that on some occasions saved my life but more importantly verified my testimony of my Savior and the restoration of the Gospel. I love changes they verify that Revelation is on going!

[@Thesortvokter]

Verifies that God is the Wizard of Oz.

[@mjen208]

On going Revelation? The lack thereof is the very reason why things have been so messy since Brigham Young! When God is actually leading his people, when he has an actual covenant people on the earth, he is in actual direct contact with the people.

[@Comm.DavidPorter]

As someone who also joined the Church at age 18 (albeit a few years before becoming a soldier), I would be interested in reading your account of the personal revelations you experienced. Have you written them down somewhere?

[@Comm.DavidPorter]

@@mjen208 The millions of people who have joined the Church since the time of Brigham Young would confirm that God "has an actual covenant people on the earth [and] is in actual direct contact with them." That also applies to the millions whose parents were members but who have secured personal witnesses of the Restoration on their own.

[@NimrodTargaryen]

As an LDS physicist I am immensely pleased with your discussions….we need more that❤

[@truthfromearth]

Homework absolutely is necessary. "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right"; "seek learning, even by study and also by faith” (D&C 88:118)

[@josephine79]

This was the thought I wanted to say, thank you.

[@n.d.m.515]

My problem with intellectuals is too many forget the also by faith part.

[@rconger24]

​@@n.d.m.515 x 2nd Nephi 27: 16 *_Professor_* Charles Anthon had a problem with that.

[@777mantikor]

​@n.d.m.515 My problem with the "faithful" is that they so often overlook the "by study" part.

[@n.d.m.515]

@@777mantikor not a problem for me. All that is needed to be Saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, baptism and confirmation, keeping the Commandments, and attend the Temple. Reading the Scriptures and prayer allows for the necessary information to be attained.

[@lukedriscoll793]

To be learned is good if they hearken to the counsel of God. That’s the key and I am grateful that we are seeing the restitution of all things coming in our real time!!

[@holyroller4391]

It is because they don't listen to God that they are ever learning but never able to come to the understanding of the truth. Open your eyes and unplug your ears. Or you'll find yourself in the fog thinking you have the rod but your miles away

[@lukedriscoll793]

@@holyroller4391then I invite you to follow President Nelson’s advice: use the talks from this general conference as a litmus test for what is true or not in the next 6 months. The first presidency and quorum of the 12 are called of God.

[@holyroller4391]

@@lukedriscoll793 I find it interesting how a group of people hold to the precepts of men rather than scripture. Who is right the men or the scripture? Because if you want to have a honest serious conversation about the conflict between the two I'll have one with you. I'll give you one example real quick. What do the scriptures say adultery is, and what does the church say it is??? Be honest and do some research.

[@lukedriscoll793]

@@holyroller4391 no discussion needed. What is needed is obedience which is the first law of heaven. To be learned is good if they hearken to the counsel of God. And whether it is by the voice of God or His servants, it is the same.

[@lukedriscoll793]

“What pure unadulterated hypocrisy it is for those who reject the living prophets and say, ‘If we had lived in the ancient times, we would not have rejected and killed the prophets as so many did.’ Prophets are prophets, truth is truth, and rebellion is rebellion, the same spirit that fights God in one age is the same spirit that fights God in every age. Those who reject the Lord’s prophet today would have done so anciently”- Bruce R. McConkie From the New Testament: 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Matthew 23:29-32 That is what the scriptures teach about following God’s servants. I will gladly and humbly follow them. I hope you will find the joy that the tree of life gives as I have. God Bless

[@537537]

Dallin H Oaks: “The methods of science lead us to what we call scientific truth. But “scientific truth” is not the whole of life. Those who do not learn “by study and also by faith” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:118) limit their understanding of truth to what they can verify by scientific means. That puts artificial limits on their pursuit of truth.” (Truth and the Plan)

[@GarrettGlauser]

I agree, but there are object truths that can disprove dogma. This is where the rubber meets the road in church history.

[@tiffanyseavy565]

​@@GarrettGlauserno you don't understand the scriptures. God has all control and power to withhold anything about anything. It's His mercy that man understands the limited information we have. Read your scriptures. Study the veil of unbelief.

[@truthfromearth]

What I gather is that Ben Spackman is saying that we should be intensely curious and investigative, but this needs to be tempered by an acknowledgement that the prophets are completely free to set us straight at any time. The eye of faith and revelation is greater than the eye of reason. We say that good inspiration is based on good information, but the symbiosis in the other direction is even stronger: Reason requires revelation to work with--otherwise all inferences would be mere speculation, based on insecure premises.

[@Not_so_greatScott]

The problem is many in the credentialed “trust the expert” class have proven themselves untrustworthy.

[@josephbradshaw7584]

Can you give an example?

[@jaylambert2838]

Name a field. They have all been infiltrated.

[@josephbradshaw7584]

@@jaylambert2838 So all acadamia is basically evil and none of it can be trusted? Just because some academia is bad doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. Prophets have also made significant mistakes, but that doesn't mean they're not prophets either.

[@keystonelds]

It's certainly true that academics, experts, and scholars are fallible humans as well! I suppose that part of our admonition to seek learning out of the best books is to first figure out which books *are* the BEST.

[@cubic-h6041]

@@josephbradshaw7584 Did you not live through Covid masking? And the trans the kids experts? Problem is the "experts" are all grifting to some extent based on who is funding them. The "experts" are the ones forbidding people from helping during disaster response right now. The James Webb is undermining current cosmological "experts". So yeah, we live in a great time to see the "authority fallacy" in action. Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. (Jer 17:5)

[@7pinecones382]

Great presentation! President Nelson asked us in April 2024 General Conference to study D & C section 109, the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer. I was impressed, once again, by verse 7 and 8 the "out of the best books, words of wisdom". Many years ago, (I am 82 years old), my 7 young children and I selected these 2 verses for a year long FHE study, focusing on the influence of a foundation of prayer, scriptures, counsel from the brethern, and good books would help us create a house of order, prayer, God, etc (vs 8). Each week in FHE we took an individual area and focused 1st on learning about it and then created action plans over a month or two to execute it into our daily living to create habits. Now about 50 years later, my kids still talk about that years growth.

[@donandlani]

IMPRESSED! 1 WHOLE YEAR! ❤

[@effervescentrelief]

Remember the Prophet's counsel yesterday, he said (not an exact quote) to study the talks of Conference and they will be a litmus test to show you what is true for the next six months. Inspired counsel as always.

[@TheLastDispensation]

I LOVE THIS REMINDER! Thank you 😊

[@truthfromearth]

Exactly.

[@bobbyshiffler80]

You're totally missing the point of what the guest says. The guest is saying, "Don't treat everything you hear over the pulpit as ipso facto doctrine".

[@Veevslav1]

I cannot get into details, but was it a litmus test to filter out the world or to filter the General Authorities words to determine which ones are not teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the scriptures and confirmed by the spirit? President Nelson "Hear Him. "In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ "The very elect if possible will be deceived." Etc... We have been warned and yet we blindly trust every word coming across the pulpit. Even when it is to soften stances on topics that are listed as abominations in the Bible. Why would we be so warned if we just had to trust the words coming across the pulpit? When are we as members going to search, ponder and pray? When will we follow the prophet's counsel to "Hear Him?"

[@Kwahls]

For the next six months? I don't remember hearing that. Was that in his talk on Sunday afternoon?

[@BenOstler]

My favorite comment in this interview: “We do not have a monopoly on truth.” I appreciate this because I am often impressed by persons of other faiths (their deeper understandings of New Testament teachings and even more natural reliance on grace being a couple examples). There is much we can learn be observing our fellow Christians.

[@natachamusser]

Many are well versed in casting out evil spirits, which in the LDS community seems a taboo subject.

[@MrNickilynn121]

I decided right before my mission to read the Bible entirely through and to thoroughly study it as much as I could. It took me 1.5 yrs to finish, and I learned so much about the fallibility of prophets. I think a lot of people fall into “cultural knowledge” (like everything a prophet says/does is perfect) because they lack real knowledge from appropriate resources. Good talk!

[@VaLynne1]

I am always having to use the Bible to show that Prophets are not perfect. Most members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not expect prophets to be perfect, including Joseph Smith. Emma was directed by the Lord to forgive his follies. The problem is when non members point to this folly or that folly that Joseph Smith did "proves he was a false prophet.

[@SaintThomasAquinas1]

True prophets do not err in what they say about God. False ones do often.

[@TheNatanbr]

Thanks, guys, for making me feel I'm not alone, I'm just very down here. I just started watching the conversation and "yeah! I'm not alone, I'm just a begginer among other people", you guys are helping me feel there is a way for my beliefs, a path for increasing my knolwdge and seek for more. I needed people like these (you) to talk and this podcast is a way I can do that.

[@PatrickTLowe]

The concern I have associated with this topic is the pecking order that is being set up. Academic interpretation is good, AND it is subordinate to the authority of God... Not the other way around. I have been in academia for a long time and I have never ceased to be amazed when I hear a comment made by an inspired man later come to be right when academia caught up. Indeed, it is good to understand a wide variety of topics shallowly and a small group of topics deeply, but revelation is real and cannot be discounted so lightly. When I hear this guest talking, it seems as though he is putting academia above the brethren, and everything should run through his cadre before it gets published. Although he spoke with a lot of truth, I think his conclusions are trending in a risky direction.

[@brundaged1]

I hear what you are saying. I have experienced enough arrogant academics to share that concern. I personally didn't get that out of the conversation. To me it's a framework for understanding why church leadership can make mistakes yet still be inspired. It's also a framework for understanding that we individually have a responsibility to gain as much high-quality knowledge as we can and seek our own inspiration as we trust church leadership.

[@TheLastDispensation]

Likewise

[@SaneAsylum]

You could make that assertion had he made any claim or claimed specific authority. All he claimed is that as F. Enzio Busche stated, "truth is the issue." Truth is absolute and God says that he would cease to be God if he went against it. Brigham Young once stated "But was that which was given to them perfect, not admitting of any addition whatever? No; for if men know anything, they must know that the Almighty has never yet found a man in mortality that was capable, at the first intimation, at the first impulse, to receive anything in a state of entire perfection." Joseph Smith admitted to many blunders (Zion's Camp for one). Our job individually and collectively is eternal progression not eternal piety.

[@austinturgoose]

I agree. It reminds me of 2 Nephi 9:28-29. I don’t doubt this professor’s sincerity, but human knowledge is limited and fallible and must be taken with a grain of salt because of that. Trusting in academia over revelation is unwise, while getting revelation from studying competent academic sources is useful. And no one man has a claim to ownership of the truth. Truth is truth, whether it is spoken by an expert or not.

[@n.d.m.515]

This is also my concern as well. The mantle is far greater than the intellect is one of my favorite talks. It made many mad, but was a great check on exactly who in the Church holds the Lord's Authority.

[@truthfromearth]

"No truth ever came into the heart of man except by the power of the Holy Ghost" - M. Russell Ballard

[@ryanroberts8783]

but not into his head

[@truthfromearth]

@@ryanroberts8783 What the heart rejects, the mind forgets. The irrationality of man is most neatly and accurately explained by the contents of his heart. The heart searches the mind for excuse to believe what one wants to believe. If revelation does not enter the heart, it will not remain permanent in the head.

[@jackiechoate6163]

Ballard wasn't a heart surgeon..

[@lorigreen4134]

Spoken by an intellectual. This reeked of self-importance.

[@truthfromearth]

@@lorigreen4134 I think everyone wants to be relevant and I can't fault anyone for that. The best way to be relevant is to become a lifelong committed disciple of Christ through faithfully and diligently following the Lord's prophet and apostles (rather than seeking to lead them). Such disciples will always be scarcer than the need.

[@elliek5350]

It's an interesting conversation, don't get me wrong. At the same time such conversations with church scholars and apologists sound more and more like "philosophies of men mingled with scriptures" as they try to reconcile all the inconsistencies (mildly speaking ) in this relatively short church history.

[@sammcgee8726]

The trouble is that such conversations are perhaps necessary, at least for some of us, if we are to engage meaningfully with truth. Revelation must be interpreted-the only way not to interpret is not to listen. Even if we should take everything literally, we still are interpreting through the lenses that our upbringing has provided, which are surely distorted. For some, contradictions are not troubling and established explanations are sufficient. For others, it is not mere comfort or preference but, in fact, actual faith, actual fidelity to God and to the truth He has revealed, that demands such engagement as this. Where the words of scripture end, alas, the philosophies of men must begin. What, then, is it that we must avoid? My supposition is that the trouble is not in questioning, discussing, speculating, interpreting, wondering, postulating, or hypothesizing, but in taking these things for scripture, for the word of God. We must not put our trust in any particular understanding of God, or of His plan, but in God Himself. Nevertheless, it seems to me that such a trust in God requires us to form some conception of God, or that the upbuilding of such a trust produces as a side-effect some conception of God, even though we recognize and remember that that conception is faulty. Often, we must "study it out" in our hearts and minds before we can receive the truth. This "studying out" often does not by itself lead us to the truth-the truth is seldom something we can figure out by ourselves-but it helps us meaningfully engage with truth, if done with appropriate humility and reverence, and prepares us to receive and understand the truth. Perhaps, though, there is an issue of dogma, here. I suppose that we must never think ourselves certain of anything-even this supposition. We proceed by faith, and by the grace of God. Faith, though, sometimes entails questioning.

[@elliek5350]

@sammcgee8726 one But: the church claims to be the only one being directly led by the prophet of God after the centuries of great apostasy. And his sole purpose is to help us all stay on straight an narrow. It isn't very narrow if the leading and presiding prophets can't stick to one doctrine from never changing God and keep changing the requirements, doctrines, and walking in darkness and in circles just like the rest of the world before, during , or after the great apostasy. Everything Ben Spackman said in this episode can be summarized as 'the emperor is naked'.

[@juliekidd9750]

@@elliek5350nailed it 💯

[@Debber55]

@elliek5350 Well said!

[@Comm.DavidPorter]

@@elliek5350 Changes in "requirements;" those happen as times change. In the early Church, requirements about matters like circumcision changed from time to time, per guidance revealed to St. Peter and the other apostles. As to "changes in doctrine," I am not sure what you are referring to. Those have been minimal compared to just about every other institution I can think of that has endured for the past 195 years.

[@HikeRx]

Sometimes "the experts" are completely wrong, especially in the social sciences.

[@uggmonster8795]

True, but its better to favor the opinion of experts than drawing conclusions based on our limited understanding of what evidences have been found

[@truthfromearth]

Correct.

[@truthfromearth]

@@uggmonster8795 One word of revelation is worth more than centuries of academic dissection and debate.

[@uggmonster8795]

@@Sword_of_Laban agreed, my statement is a rule of thumb, not absolute truth

[@uggmonster8795]

@@truthfromearth so long as it is revelation and not just the opinion of an individual on a historical topic. Often times members and some times leaders of the church mistake the former for the latter.

[@MattEnglishMusic]

It also helps that Elder Cook’s Grandfather’s Father (David P. Kimball) was one of those 3 or 4 boys at Sweetwater. He had undoubtedly been hearing the family stories all his life, and then applied the historical paper to validate his statements.

[@joelharris3389]

I am a General Contractor, and I do not know how to install Electrical circuit boards, I cannot operate heavy equipment and excavation machinery, and I don't know how to CORE through a mountain and lay down communication fiber optics. However, I do know who to call. I know the subcontractors who can operate heavy equipment, and I know the subcontractor who knows how to utilize fiber optics. The concept of conversing, collaborating, and knowing the experts in construction does make me look good.

[@Commenter2121]

Interesting message. I kind of feel like the takeaways are: The Q15 rely on experts and then work together like a board of directors to make policy We can’t trust church history as written because it was written in a way that may not be accurate but will hopefully inspire faith Leaders want members that are ready to get deeper into the challenging aspects of church history to do so but not the general membership Messages like Elder Ballards about the gospel topic essays should be given to the whole church, not just CES instructors or BYU faculty. Elder Cook should be answering the hard polygamy questions at that Nauvoo fireside, we want to hear the answers from the leaders, just like the original apostles. If CES teachers need to know the essays like the back of their hand so that they can provide answers, surely the Q15 should as well. People are hurting and they want answers, open and honest answers without excuses or gaslighting.

[@caydenthompson126]

100%

[@sandyhardin5617]

I’m listening to God! Priesthood leaders have lied to me, yelled at me so I now know God doesn’t lie

[@stevencooper4422]

They should've never yelled or lied to you! "No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile..."

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

They had reason to. God doesn't lie, but do you?

[@hopeinHim5160]

Sandy❤️I am so sorry. 🌹Much love to you 💕

[@hopeinHim5160]

​@@WatchingwaitingG2D liar!

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@hopeinHim5160 Yes, you are. You also don't believe in God or belong to any religion. Add hypocrite to your resume.

[@jaredkarns6663]

This conversation ignores 60 years of Communist/Gadianton ideology penetrating universities, academia, and establishing a controlling narrative.

[@truthseeker4286]

Very true

[@KenPeterson-lh2fz]

Q

[@giuliom3564]

The Gadianton ideology is not communist at all, but very capitalist and for profit. Your brain ignores the facts about history.

[@Comm.DavidPorter]

I heard nothing remotely "Gadianton" or Marxist in what Brother Spackman had to say.

[@truthseeker4286]

Spackman comes close to saying "when other churches or Entities change their beliefs or doctrines or ordinances we call that apostasy. But when the LDS church does it, we call it revelation."

[@Comm.DavidPorter]

Maybe because when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does it, it actually IS the product of revelation.

[@537537]

2 Ne 27:26 - “Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.”

[@leanoraphipps9625]

Appropriate dress is very important in sharing the gospel.

[@camispoppin]

wow the polarity of these comments.. I happened to think the conversation was incredible and would love to see more like it in the future!!

[@KylonRic]

I’ve been cautious of this guest speaker ever since I heard his dissertation was on the topic of LDS being in danger and needing to repent. The prophet calls us to repentance, not academia. That mixed with an ideology that seems to say the church NEEDS academia and modern “experts” to function rather than the other way around, sounds like he’s setting up for an argument to push the church in the direction he and other academia authorities think it should go. Christ is at the head of the church. He calls men and women in their weakness. Christ doesn’t need to pick the most educated to be a prophet or an apostle, He really just wants the most humble

[@brainhunter1000]

Right. Just finished a book about the apocrypha. Scholars date anything which mentions Christ as post Christ (100+ ad) because people never talked of Christ before he came in the Bible. According to academia, even LDS ones) the Book of Mormon then would be post Christ. Academia is heavily influenced by worldly thinking and philosophy. So while getting an education is a good idea, and learning true history is important, it’s important to take it with a grain of salt and understand how academia thinks and comes up with conclusions.

[@charisecarlson]

I don't know of scriptures that back-up the assertion that the church can't need repentance unless the prophet says so. Do you have any citations? The D&C provides a mechanism for the prophet to be called to a church court, and says that no one is above the law. This means that prophets can be imperfect to the extent they need a church court. If a prophet were to need a church court, isn't it possible he isn't in a position to call the church to repentance when it needs it? Just as an example. Also, Samuel the Lamanite wasn't called by the Nephite head of the church to call people to repentance, he was called of God.

[@KylonRic]

@@charisecarlson yes, you absolutely need the proper authority. The example you provided about the prophet proves my point. Who is on the church court? Those who have been called and set apart for that specific purpose. D&C 107: “71 Nevertheless, a high priest, that is, after the order of Melchizedek, may be set apart unto the ministering of temporal things, having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth; 72 And also to be a judge in Israel, to do the business of the church, to sit in judgment upon transgressors upon testimony as it shall be laid before him according to the laws” You can report what or who you THINK is sinning to the proper authorities, but unless you’re a judge in Israel, I’d be careful calling them to repentance. “In the Lord’s Church, mortal judgments for members or prospective members are administered by leaders who seek divine direction.” -President Oaks And to answer your question about Samuel the Lamanite, there’s a few things to consider. The nephites were in a state of apostasy (they didn’t recognize the proper channels set up by God). It was also a different organization of the church, there wasn’t one church set up for the world all connected through media. Christ called 12 disciples among the nephites and 12 apostles among the Jews. It appears there was a greater need for God to call local prophets among different groups of people. You can do an “experiment upon my words.” call your ward to repentance during testimony meeting, see how that goes.

[@charisecarlson]

@@KylonRic Thanks for your sarcasm, I felt the warm and fuzzies. I'm so glad to see you are avoiding contention and are thinking celestial. I'm so grateful for a church structure that makes it so women like me are judged by men like you, and that men can forever avoid the judgment of any woman. *chef's kiss* There is a difference between calling to repentance, needing repentance, and passing judgment. I think God rarely asks people to call others to repentance, but your citations don't provide evidence that God can't or won't. It's possible for people to recognize when the church is in error, and get confirmation from God. I think God can ask those people to call others to repentance. And, as you implied in your comment, people called to repentance are not likely to be happy about it. We agree that the current church structure doesn't allow anyone except male leaders to pass judgment. Also, many men like to follow Elder Oaks' example in refusing to apologize or acknowledge when they or the church has been wrong. This is in contradiction to the scriptures and the example of Joseph Smith. Prove me wrong.

[@KylonRic]

@@charisecarlson where was I sarcastic? We are having a conversation, no need to get offended. My point of calling the church to repentance was not that nobody would like it, but rather the bishop would speak to you about it. Because that falls under his role, not yours. And you’re providing a bunch of information on what you think, but no sources. I provided sources. The Lord has an order to how he operates his church. If it operated by correction from the bottom up, it would be chaos. People from various wards would try to be pushing the church in the direction THEY think it should go (women in the priesthood for instance). But a change like that would have to come from God to his Prophet. “Surely the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servant the prophet”-Amos 3:7 And from the church handbook: “If a member commits a serious sin, the bishop or stake president helps him or her repent… The bishop or stake president oversees membership restrictions or withdrawal as outlined in 32.5-32.14. These actions are accompanied by conditions of repentance. As a person sincerely repents, he or she may have the privileges of Church membership restored.” - General Handbook, 32.1 You obviously have other points of doctrine you struggle with besides how repentance is called. I’m clearly not here to rebuke, as that’s my exact opposite position, I’m just pointing out there seems to be much deeper layers to this conversation than for what’s appropriate or possible on a KZbin comment section. Wish you the best ❤️

[@RomerSapan]

Remember the brother of Jared The Lord did not just instruct him or give them solutions but he let him think the solutions

[@jakelee2402]

And then later, the Lord showed him ALL things and had him seal it up. The Lord seems to use different gears at different times with different people. Point to all of this for me is should keep an open mind to how the Lord works, never setting bounds on him. Love it.

[@RomerSapan]

@@jakelee2402Isaiah 55:8-9 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[@benzun9600]

Yet the brother of Jared did not consult with any experts. He received what he needed solely by revelation

[@bretbaron4896]

Either he was an expert on how to form stones, or he found out from one of his friends or family. Even if the Holy Ghost put the idea to him it came from sincere prayer. The barges came from God inspiring him.

[@rtharalson]

Perhaps some scholarship here… Tower of Babel did not exist therefore no brother of Jared. So I don’t care about a silly Joe’s Myth story.

[@hpagalla]

stay in the BOAT.... hold on to the Living Prophets and Apostles.... Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths. ~Proverbs 3:5-6

[@charisecarlson]

Love this. I think sometimes we can build our testimonies on prophets and apostles instead of Christ or God, which is like building a house on sand. I like the idea of utilizing prophets and apostles, living and dead, to learn from and pray about their teachings, but to ultimately build on the rock of our Savior. I've seen how learning about mistakes of human leaders can really mess with people's faith. It's possible God will direct our paths differently than current church leaders are saying - like how Pres. Camille Johnson was inspired to be a working mom at a time when church leaders taught vehemently against it.

[@777mantikor]

What is your point? Nothing in this discussion suggests anyone "get out of the boat." Is that what you heard?

[@hpagalla]

@@charisecarlson thank you 🙏

[@teri4710]

Peter got out of the boat

[@hpagalla]

@@teri4710 😂😂😂 thanks Terri 🙏😅

[@iamtobler]

The reason ‘experts’ are experts is because they have had to study, present, AND defend their opinions more than regular people. Thats why while experts aren’t infallible, it’s a good place to start when searching for truth. It’s fine to be skeptical of expertise, but we shouldn’t become so automatically anti-expert that we miss out on truths.

[@urthesmile4me990]

What happened to “the philosophies of men mingled with scripture” vs “messengers from our Father”?

[@lemjwp1756]

I think the unasked question in this interview, that many viewers are curious to know, is specifically which topics he is expecting to change with this new approach?

[@katmmcdonald]

I was wondering the same thing

[@keystonelds]

This probably isn't the answer you want, but I don't recall him mentioning anything specific off-camera that he thinks will change. I think his main point is simply that the Church has reached a stage where we might expect more change to happen.

[@LatterdaySaintIdeas]

I'll predict it for you, since we are already well along the path. Academics will continue to throw Joseph Smith and the early founders under the bus, claiming that "new research" shows them all to be treasure seeking, fallen, unreliable, racist products of their culture. That all the anti-mormon claims from Mormonism Unveiled and the Salt Lake Tribune are basically correct.

[@lemjwp1756]

@@keystonelds Thanks for the reply. I noticed he briefly mentioned the Word of Wisdom, which made my ears perk up, since many are beginning to question how it changed in application, and there was a suggestion in another online forum that the church has intentions of revisiting the revelation regarding how it came to be interpreted and applied as it is currently. The role of tradition is interesting. I grew up when coke was on the list, when playing cards were not ok at all, and when many members believed the leaders personally met with Christ on Thursdays in the temple. So much has changed since then!

[@benzun9600]

​@@lemjwp1756most of the leaders apparently meet with the experts more than Christ now q days

[@rightanglo8911]

The problem with this apologetic argument for changes made by the church, is that the change always seems to align with the way that the secular world has already changed. In which case, am I to believe that the secular world is being led by God even before the Prophet of the Church is? If the church makes a change to fully accept homosexual marriage in the future, for example, that would not be evidence to me that the Church/Prophet is led by God, it would be evidence to me that the Church/Prophet is led by secular society at large.

[@holdenrh]

Interesting question. As a follow-up, I would ask, "Is the world becoming more wicked?" If so, then you would not expect God to be directing it nor a Prophet to follow the world. But what if the world is becoming more righteous? Is that possible? Could the world's increased notice of the marginalized among us be a sign the spirit of christ is more fully infiltrating the world and the church? In that case, then I would expect the church to follow the world in embracing the marginalized.

[@rightanglo8911]

@@holdenrh I wouldn't expect God's church to be a follower in any circumstance. I would always expect God's church to be a leader, if it is truly God's church.

[@truthseeker4286]

Yes, and unfortunately, we're seeing too much of that; the church being led by the world

[@teinelaume]

@@holdenrh That is an interesting question. I am assuming you are talking about the LGBTQ etc. population. But if you think the world and the church are becoming more righteous because they are more accepting of this way of living then you haven't read the scriptures, and if you have then you haven't understood them. Or you would have to ignore, whitewash, throw them out along with God's most important symbolism on being one with him. My mother in law is always lock step with the current leadership and Whatever they say is from God so if they accept it then it must be as you said. and is the best way. That leads to embracing social programs like Equity, Diversity and Inclusion at BYU, which sounds good on the surface but are all about judging people by their skin color and causing disunity and division.

[@TheYgds]

I would have more faith in this frontier if it were not for the fact that much of the academic world is captured by alien philosophies which seem tailor made to break down the Church. I am an academic myself, and I do not trust my own kind, inside or outside the Church. If Prophets can be fooled or misinformed due to either weakness or lack of sufficiently bolstered connection to God, then there are many academics that through clever persuasion would seek to gain hold of the Church's reigns and slip us into a similar condition as the Jews at the time of Christ, where the scribes had more authority than the priests. Such a new frontier could backfire horribly as the nefarious academics overplay their hand, driving us back into a fundamentalism that could drown us for several decades. If academics weren't the despicable snakes they are today, this would be wonderful, but it seems Satan will do all he can to stand in the way of the Church's progress.

[@keystonelds]

Scholars are humans, too, and can also make mistakes. Great reminder! We certainly need to be wise.

[@Rammy42069]

Ya but there is absolutely no proof or evidence that aliens have ever been here.

[@popfaves370]

Academics walk in lockstep. They support evolution, or they won't be accredited or get funding. There is no free scientific method. Research is used to support foregone conclusions. So I trust the Scriptures and the Holy Ghost over the general views of academia. For example, academia supports vaccines for the most part. But the scriptures prohibit piercing the skin or making cuttings in the flesh or introducing impurities into the temple of God, and the body is a temple of God too. I believe the Scriptures, not academics on this matter.

[@philandrews2860]

I agree that we need to be cautious with regards to academics, but I also think there is a way to balance that caution without going to one extreme or the other. Also, I think that the new information and ideas that Ben is referring to would not in any way affect core Latter-day Saint doctrine, such as the very basic doctrines having to do with our salvation. I believe they will deal with very secondary questions such as those related to history and other previous secondary teachings, such as certain details of church history and ancient history, etc. - Basically the kinds of secondary questions that have caused some to leave the faith over cognitive dissonance when finding out things that don't agree with what they were taught previously in the church. I see them possibly as as an expansion of the current Gospel Topics Essays, with perhaps more explicit descriptions of the reasons behind the changes to the original teaching(s).

[@natedawg2020]

@@TheYgds I can understand being jaded with the current application of status and credentials in academia, but it doesn’t really make sense to “lose faith” with academia as a concept. Academics doesn’t require faith, it requires evidence and proof. The key difference here is that if an academic is going to present new knowledge to the world, it’s going to be based on something provable with repeatable experiments. They aren’t making claims based on authority, so you don’t really have to take their word for it. If it’s real science, then their claims should be testable and repeatable. This paradigm doesn’t exist with church authorities. Receiving revelation isn’t a scientific experiment with predictable yields and variables you can control or manipulate. You must accept revelation and church authorities based on faith. Accepting the words of academics doesn’t really require faith if you put in the time to research stuff yourself. You can control a scientific experiment. You cannot control God or revelation. I’ll allow you to be disillusioned with people, but it doesn’t make sense to be disillusioned with science as a concept. That is like being disillusioned with logic as a concept.

[@sdb816]

What happens when the “experts” have evil motives or are evil men? That’s what we saw during the plandemic. So not only is it imperative that we continue to pray that the Brethren recieve direct inspiration, but we must also be in tune with the Spirit to receive personal confirmation and guidance. We cannot simply go along without doing our part to know what is right.

[@katmmcdonald]

Exactly!

[@BaronClapper]

Yes, this was one of my few criticisms of the video. The arrogance in "trust the experts." I think what he was trying to say is that in the end, we follow the prophet, and the prophet is more right when he does his homework. If we rely too much on the experts, then everyone gets a harmful vaccine. If we rely too much on tradition, then generations of people can believe something utterly false (priesthood ban).

[@sama.scraps]

I think the larger reality is that they get “stuck” on a theory or principle and pride keeps them from recognizing truth.

[@trevorprice2490]

If you're using the term "plandemic" unironcally, I think the bigger problem is figuring out what actually constitutes expertise and general consensus vs. podcasters and cable TV news punditry

[@scottvance74]

So encouraging people to wear masks to hinder the spread of covid which was causing death to people (especially over the age of 60 or with resperatory illness) was the result of "evil men" with "evil motives"? Meanwhile the good people were doing what? Trying to get people to not wear masks so we could kill off a few more older folks? I'm having a hard time following your logic here.

[@leslyveve9262]

I love this channel! Glad to have found something with substance to listen to in the LDS podcast jungle.

[@oshawott4544]

I love hearing from Professor Spackman. Please have him on more often. You two have such good back and forth, with questions and answers I never would have considered. Not only are these discussions thoroughly entertaining, but interesting and enlightening as well.

[@TheHamptonPlace]

Some things that undermine trust in experts are: Politicians using the “consensus of experts” to curtail constitutional liberties (freedom of speech, assembly) or to push agendas. Telling people that men can be women or vice versa and actually giving sterilizing drugs and surgeries to accomplish said “truths”. Telling us to “trust the science” is fine and I do trust science but view science as a tool and some people using tools are dangerous people because of their lack of honesty, courage, and anti-human worldview.

[@carolynnmclaughlin5308]

I think it was Elder Marion G. Romney, years ago who said: “I know when I have taught by the Spirit when I have learned something!” 🧑‍🦳🌺😇

[@TroyBrock-o7w]

This channel and these guys are nailing it. Church needs more people / channels like this to counter the negative out there. Nice job

[@Thesortvokter]

Internet is where religion goes to die :)

[@RyanMercer]

Yay, more Spackman!

[@cjbatesii]

Thank you for this. I'm learning Hebrew, and A LOT about the context of our faith and the claims that it makes, that a deeper knowlege of Hebrew, the Bible in general, realities about translation, etc., might not always necessarily *answer*, but will shed no small amount of light on. While it's been pretty light, I can feel some skepticism...even though I've been abundantly clear about my testimony of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc. I've even gone so far as to highlight Joseph Smith's quote about the Book of Mormon being "the most correct book" -- with the addendum that there's more to that than many will realize, and here is a taste of it in a simple format that anyone, regardless of background, can understand, and thereby be enriched...I've also been abundantly clear that my testimony has been enriched by what I have learned, and I want to help those whose testimony maybe isn't as entrenched to weather the lies of the world, until they, too, have a more firm foundation...I don't see it as any different than had my talent been poetry, or songwriting, and I then composed something along those lines that brought someone closer to their Savior. I did read some Hebrew in a talk, about Passover, but it was Genesis 1:1, and I divulged exactly what it was, and that I was doing so that *everyone* could get at least a sample of how it once sounded...

[@truthseeker4286]

"Ongoing Revelation" was strategically coined because change is coming. Due to the info and research we have now (because of the blessing of the Internet). The errors and traditions in teachings and some "doctrines" of the past, will be changed and/or overruled. This is the crux of the matter. Most policies , changes , some doctrines , teachings are a direct result of outside pressure or new substantiated facts from the world. Just look at the Temple. "Buckle up" is right… Because as you pay attention, you will see that our false traditions and beliefs of the past are going to be changed. Hopefully soon more members will discover that Church does not equal God. The foolish fawning and seemingly worshiping of church leaders needs to end.

[@537537]

D&C 1:19 “The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh”

[@simonthewelshman]

He who has more knowledge and experience in this life the greater the advantage in the world to come. We have always been told to read of the good books, to learn all things, to stretch ourselves, ponder and pray, and become more experienced people through education and that is alien in any other church. This is how I have always seen it.

[@stevencooper4422]

Consensus in understanding doctrinal points as well is vital to moving forward in the Church. The more agreement on fundamental principles, the more inspired and reliable the doctrine!

[@AnnaBellaChannel]

The church's programs (young mens, young women, primary and Sunday school) have undergone many adjustments in the last five years. "People don't need to be educated, but they need to be reading." This quote is paradoxical. To read is to become educated. I really like the streamlining of church programs as we don't want to be repeating ourselves. The quality of church meetings is better than the quantity of church meetings. Each person living on the earth is on a their unique spiritual journey on or off the covenant path and that is ok.

[@cristinafonseca567]

Council comes from latin concilium, which means a meeting, a gathering of people. In our pre mortal existence there were meetings, and there was the great council. Our prophet and apostles use the same principle of gathering in councils, and the same happens in our stakes and wards. It is nice to know that we all follow a divine principle.

[@537537]

Dallin H Oaks: “We should not consider secular prominence or authority as qualified sources of truth.” (Truth and the Plan)

[@777mantikor]

That in no way contradicts what has been discussed here.

[@537537]

The person being interviewed repeated about 5 times that we should trust “the experts” (aka secularists). That is not true. The scriptures say the opposite.

[@tawneenielsen4080]

But Dallan H Oaks uses his secular knowledge to protect the church. Shouldn't we use secular knowledge, based on facts and not the "Mystical World View" that Joseph and 100's of others were using in their day? These facts protect us from making choices that are harmful to us and our posterity.

[@GreatRemembrance]

This 🙌🏻

[@victoroaktree]

Let me explain the quote very simply: Holding a diploma does not qualify you as a source of truth. You need much more than that to become a credible source of truth.

[@537537]

Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

[@13family1313]

SOOOO good!!!! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Grateful for this faith filled perspective not anti- church and not justifying the toxic current culture of the church. This is filled with so much truth! Onward with faith and hope for healthy changes and increased truth 💖

[@whazthatusay]

My great grandfather's history was titled By Reason and by Faith. This is how i was taught growing up, how i understand, and aligns with this concept. Thank you for taking time on this subject.

[@whazthatusay]

When reading about all the prophets in the Bible, how could we feel our Latter-day prophets would be any different? They, too, are human with differing perspectives. This podcast makes total sense. As long as you have a testimony of the Prophet, and knows God will talk through him to the Church, then you can trust the words he speaks. Study and pray about it and gain confirmation for yourself. Of course, their lives have been lived in abwaybtobqualify them, but holding them to a perfection beyond human capabilities is preposterous.

[@537537]

Isaiah 5:21 “Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

[@777mantikor]

Are you threatened when someone suggests that it is important to learn anything other than what is in the scripture? Nothing in this program contradicts that scripture, but it seems to have triggered you. Why?

[@537537]

I’ve studied many secular books but I have not received as much light or knowledge as I have as when I study the scriptures. We shouldn’t trust the experts like this guy repeated multiple times that we should. The opposite is repeated many times in the scriptures.

[@tyleroneill2136]

2 Nephi 9:29 - But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[@nickthompson2048]

The podcast offers some valuable insights, but there’s a critical issue. The historian has shifted the logical fallacy of the “argument from authority” from the prophets, seers, and revelators to secular experts. This is a significant problem. In this single podcast episode, whether knowingly or not, the historian has philosophically undermined the very essence of what it means to be a Prophet and the foundation of LDS faith. The core belief of the LDS Church is that God grants authority to specific individuals, who then delegate those keys. By suggesting that a layman’s information is inherently false while an expert’s is accurate, the historian disregards the divine authority to receive revelation. Furthermore, this approach removes the traditional check on information-whether it aligns with the leaders’ narrative-thus eroding the authority of prophets to receive truth directly from God. This, in essence, challenges the principle of modern-day revelation and leans into a postmodernist perspective that contradicts the foundation of LDS teachings.

[@aldenebutton9066]

Totally agree.... Either prophets speak for God, God's mouthpiece on Earth as the missionaries teach when recruiting new members or they are just fallible men relying on the ways and culture of the times. Yet it seems the church is attempting to blur the two in order to explain the many mistakes prophets have made.

[@jodeanmay8844]

Prophets prophecy. Yes they are not perfect humans, neither was Joseph but Joseph actually prophesied. We haven’t had prophecy “thus saith the Lord” since. Just men and their ideas and opinions.

[@AndroidCyclist]

@@jodeanmay8844 how do you know the difference? Is it just an opinion or a prophesy? Do you have to wait a long time to see if it happens?

[@beccapowell3750]

I see the leaders of the church as being the most practiced at seeking revelation and direction and being chosen by God for their experience and preparation, which He has given them. When they speak, it is our job to seek personal revelation about what they have said and operating on faith, learn by our experience the truth of what has been said. We don't need to know everything, but I do believe that the Spirit will help us to find what we need to know and learn from next. If ye have a desire to learn about something, I suspect you are called to that work. The responsibility is with us to find truth and verify the truth that we hear. If we find ourselves pointing fingers, I suggest that it's time to redirect our focus and efforts. We can trust others to do that for themselves and give each other space for grace as we all learn in our own journeys. God will bless honest seekers of truth.

[@beccapowell3750]

I appreciate this discussion and the questions it brings up for me. Thanks guys!

[@madelinetekulve9988]

You phrase this so well! I couldn't find the words to describe this and I'm so grateful you were able too. It helps strengthen this knowledge in me as I see it so clearly written out and explained. Thanks Sister!

[@telestial_mormon]

I’m glad you guys are discussing this. This is pretty groundbreaking actually. I don’t think the general membership understands this. We need to start looking at our general authorities as just people who are authorized to speak in their specific area of the church, and not speaking ‘for God’

[@ZH-fp9oj]

I haven’t been to church since last December and started stepping away from the church around August 2021. It’s a huge relief not having to always deal with the cognitive dissonance from the church. I never realized how mentally exhausting it was.

[@readerreader6703]

What do you believe now?

[@karolynpieren5129]

You are just expressing a faith crisis. Cognitive dissonance? lol. Justification I would say. Like all those who want to find a reason to leave. Work on your testimony. You will receive help.

[@refermanjon]

😂

[@stevencooper4422]

​@@karolynpieren5129​It's just painful for him so the crisis of faith/cognitive dissonance is still wearing him down. But I agree he needs to doubt his doubts if he is already cynical in life.

[@dallaspeterson2024]

Your glibly arrogant reply is part of the cognitive dissonance that most certainly does exist in the church!

[@deePark_]

Ugh. This dude speaks to my soul. I have always been one to ask questions of things that don't quite sound right. And it's more than that. My profession is very evidence based. It's made me feel super isolated. I'm just glad my husband is skilled at balancing my questions with his own strong testimony.

[@reddman666]

I hope you'll listen to your gut when it tells you that someone is misleading you. Research what doesn't sit right with you and let the facts guide you. Good luck in your journey.

[@537537]

John 7:15-16 “And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.”

[@ggrace1133]

My dad was a continuous student of the scriptures and purchased books from latter-day leaders as often as our budget allowed. This was way back in the ancient days of the 1960’s-70’s. I asked why the whole world wouldn’t know right away that the LDS church was true all along when the second coming takes place. He answered that it would take some time to straighten some things out because Dad believed way back then that the restoration was ongoing and that there were changes past, changes currently, and changes yet to come. He believed black men were going to receive the priesthood in this life even though Elder McKonkie said they would not due to the doctrine (not considered policy back then) that they were “fence-sitters” pre-mortally and had to be marked in this life so as not to be granted priesthood power, office, or temple blessings in mortality. Dad was different than the average man in his ways of reasoning things out. He also had had black friends he described as very intuitively spiritual and faithful to God. He shared his thoughts on this just once in HP quorum and the other brethren were really upset that he’d think differently than Elder McKonkie, an apostle! Then came 1978. It rattled a few testimonies briefly, but they soon shelved their concerns and pressed forward in faith. Dad taught me to study, ponder, pray, meditate, listen to our leaders, but remember that only Jesus is perfect and he has to work with us mere mortals trying our best. All of us have mortal filters that are flawed. We have more truth, but not all truth-we’re still babes in the woods. So we look to Christ for morepure truth, and give grace to our leaders who are inspired men and women of God. Change is good for our souls. Course correction is too. It’s all good…the Savior’s got this, despite our mortal fallibility.

[@TexasTornado66]

When I read the gospel topic essays, I was incredibly shocked. The church was admitting what in the 1980s and 90s they said was anti-Mormon rhetoric. They were now admitting was true.

[@michaeljhuntsman]

I still think that studying the Book of Mormon daily goes a long way to keep ones faith on a firm foundation... of course there are other basics... daily prayer, regular temple attendance, weekly partaking of the sacrament, repenting, following the living prophets... serving, doing God's will, helping gather Israel, and bringing souls unto Christ... bearing good fruit (doing good), being consecrated, generous fast offerings... I'm sure there are a few more... oh, keeping the commandments, loving God and ones neighbor as thyself :)

[@Glen.Danielsen]

Late in this discussion Spakeman disses and dismisses those who lament an infusion of liberals and secularists into the Church History Dept. He overlooks that the Joseph Smith Papers authors included one who, with the Book of Abraham volume, disavowed the work of faithful Church scholars (Gee and Muhlestein), belittled them, and was retained in lieu of them. Yes, we cherish the help of experts, but that does not mean we need embrace secularism. Saints can have the credentials, yet they can also remember discipleship and Faithful Perspective. I don’t accept the intimation that readers of Writ need PhD escort or curriculum committee handholding in order to immerse in the scriptures. Academic gimmick. But who am I to comment - my ‘undergraduate’ degree in Religious Studies is dissed with PhD glee as well. May I trespass on academic holy ground long enough to suggest that God has designed his Canon so that the power in them unfolds when anyone hungry for Light simply takes it for what it’s worth. The worst thing we can do is make the study of Word intellectually lofty - the stink of academic overthink. Nephi counseled us to liken the scriptures unto ourselves - not to the ancients, and not to the academic’s.

[@cynthiaabsher9069]

And what about those individuals whose intellects don't lean toward advanced thinking? Will they be denied personal revelation? No. My grandmother knew the Book of Mormon was true when the Elder placed it in her hands. I don't think she ever read the whole thing. God does not hold back anything to the pure and honest in heart when seeking truth. So many go beyond the mark, then pass it off as factual. That's why the prophet said, in the coming days, it will not be possible...you know the rest. People will try to deceive and declare. Oh, be wise.

[@Glen.Danielsen]

@@cynthiaabsher9069 Yes. Great points Cynthia. I am thankful for our corps of learned’s, but I don’t buy elitism and scholar-worship, nor secularism and Liberalism. God bless you.

[@gusefulbeauty]

Thank you for your comment! I agree! The Spirit can teach a child things the head knows nothing about.

[@537537]

Matthew 19:26 “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”

[@stephenjohansen8778]

As a church we have many foundational assumptions as to how God works that are simply false. Christ did not micromanage his disciples progression. He was quite comfortable allowing them to wrestle in confusion as they grew in knowledge and understanding. And so it is today.

[@bethanytredway6111]

This is such a relevant conversation. I had no idea that Talmage was a geologist!

[@jandjhirst]

God also loves to throw us curveballs once in a while, and show that his wisdom far surpasses all of the "experts." Whether it's a nobody from Nazareth, or a young teenage farm boy, God sometimes has to put us all in our place and let us know who the real expert is. Just as the church inherits the crystallized false traditions from its past, each of us individually does the same. We should always be questioning and open to new knowledge and willing to let go of old habits and ideas that have held us back. But we have to be careful who we listen to, or we may go backward instead of forward.

[@tannerballard9496]

I find a lot of these academics to be very smug and overly confident. He wants us to hold his pedigree in such high esteem that he is seen as the ultimate source of truth in historical matters. But one look at his twitter account shows he cant even get some of the most basic facts of our day and age right. Why then would i look to him to interpret history for me? The scripture "because they are learned they think they are wise" comes to mind.

[@Glen.Danielsen]

Incisive, Tanner. Love your brilliant comment. 🫡💛

[@michaelbennett7561]

I would say that Joseph Smith was a prophet and also a fallible man influenced by his culture. He was called of God, but nevertheless sometimes made mistakes. I would probably make many more mistakes if I were called to the same position.

[@professorchimp1]

Correct

[@truthfromearth]

Joseph Smith said, "I never told you I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations I have taught". He is right.

[@AndroidCyclist]

Where is the line? What can't a prophet do? The LDS church says there was a great apostasy so they can claim authority. What level of misconduct would qualify as another apostasy? There is some very shady stuff that happened under Brigham Young.

[@truthfromearth]

@@AndroidCyclist Brigham Young didn't do anything shady. What is shady is your glasses.

[@AndroidCyclist]

@@truthfromearth why was slavery legal in Utah?

[@nintendofan1750]

We as faithful Latter-Day Saints need to be willing to abandon "foolish traditions of our fathers" like Lamanites did when they joined the Nephites as they truly and wholeheartedly embraced the true Church.

[@GrandMcAnus]

Emphasis on the foolish ones, we must also do everything we can to live and pass down the good traditions of our fathers to our children.

[@nintendofan1750]

@@GrandMcAnus Well said. Thank you for adding this.

[@hobihome]

Does Halloween fall into “Foolish traditions?” I spent the afternoon decorating the house with my 7year old yesterday during conference. This morning I sat pondering pres. Nelson/Bednars messages and imagined America being seen by ancient prophets and the return of the Saviour. October is NOT the best time to peek into our day. Can you image seeing bloody monsters, witches, dead bodies inside and outside our homes!? It’s just “fun?” I took a look around my home and discovered I deliberately invite evil inside in October!! I felt I had to “choose who and what I dedicated my life to.” My home did not reflect Christ. I took it all down and threw it out. Decorations that all my kids grew up with and love. It was hard. I felt like I was tossing part of their childhood’s. We have Halloween traditions but I’m letting them go this year. All my Fall decor went up instead. I can’t expect Angles to minister to me or my family in the mist of Halloween gore. This tradition isn’t worth keeping.

[@nintendofan1750]

@@hobihome I know Heavenly Father accepts any sacrifice we make to grow closer to Him. That's a very honorable thing to keep the inside of your home fit for the Spirit. As my children grow to understand, I will aim to teach them about historical saints of the past to observe "All Hallows Day" to an extent, in addition to Halloween and its festivities.

[@dcarts5616]

@@hobihomeWe never did Halloween gore in my home. Pumpkins and treats, some spider webs. Never skulls or devils or other dark stuff, fun costumes never dark evil scary ones. Halloween is fun, but I too wish I didn’t participate in the foolery at times.

[@Fatherlesskid184]

It was in answer to prayer, sincere prayer while reading and pondering his testimony, feeling the burning in the bosom, and then asking Heavenly Father if these things were true that through the Holy Ghost I heard “yes” and was filled with the love of God throughout my spirit. I went from not believing in modern prophets to knowing that Joseph Smith is a prophet and can never deny that because it came from God. I challenge anyone who wants to add man’s ability to know spiritual things without the power of God completely prideful.

[@537537]

1 Corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

[@raeshellsutherland1958]

A comment was made about the prophet never leading us astray, even that statement is a tradition based on a conference talk that is also not scriptural or doctrinally sound. We hold very tight to that idea because it makes us feel safe, but ultimately only our revelatory relationship with the Lord brings rest and confidence or safety, and His safety is not what we may think it is.

[@VaLynne1]

The Church still teaches that the Prophet will not be allowed by the Lord to lead the people astray. Yes it was first said by Wilford Woodruff but not in Conference and is not a tradition and is doctrinally sound. It is canonized in the Doctrine and covenants in the first official declaration. if you want to read it go to page 292 of the D&C and at the bottom of the page under EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF REGARDING THE MANIFESTO. Read the very first sentence under that headline. And then continue reading as it says, "It is not in the mind of God." and read the rest of it. it will help you to understand it was not a "tradition" Another way you can tell if what is said is the Prophet speaking or it is Wilford Woodruff the man, is if he is the only one who says it, especially if he says it only once, such as in a conference. Many prophets in my life time (I of course do not know your age unless the 1958 in your name is your birth year and in that case you are only 4 years younger than me and I will list some other prophets who have made that statement. President Harold B. Lee "You don't need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1996], 533). President Gordon B. Hinkley gave similar assurance to Church members: “The Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church. God will not let his work be led astray” (“Be Not Deceived,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, 46; emphasis added). www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual-2016/chapter-2?lang=eng But teaching that they will not be allowed to lead people astray does not mean he is perfect or will not make mistakes.It is like they said here in thee pod cast. They are human and Christ Himself is the only perfect prophet. Emma was told to forgive Joseph of his follies. But it didn't say that Joseph's mistakes/follies had led men astray. You're are right, We do hold tight to the that teaching and it does make us feel safe as does the Gospel of Jesus Christ in general, But you are wrong about it being why we hold on to it. We hold on to it because it is like any other doctrine taught, it is eternal and it is from God. Also don't forget that your idea of "ultimately only our revelatory relationship with the Lord brings rest and confidence or safety," is true only for your personal revelation, Only the Prophet can give revelation for the Church or World as a whole. And when he does it is infallible in what he has revealed to us. . Be very careful about claiming something that is in canonized scripture as something "just" said in Conference and is only a tradition. Someone who wants to try to destroy the church could use that and be believed by many. It is sad when a member believes doctrine is only a traction such as yourself without doing research by study and by faith. It really did not take that much time to find it in scripture, repeated by other prophets, and not just some Conference report said many years ago. On the other had it is also sad when a prophet many years ago did say something once in conference and never again and not ever repeated but people claim it was something that prophet taught for years. I am glad that being told Prophets cannot lead us astray is not just a tradition and that God will not allow it.

[@confusedwhynot]

The difference between us and a Prophet is that they are called if God and Ordained with the power to speak for God to His children. The Prophet holds the apostolic keys to the Kingdom of God on the earth. I am not called to hold keys.

[@SoTwissted]

The Vail is thin. The prophet is the voice between it.

[@portneuf57]

Something I've noticed over my adult life in church ... in quorum meetings or in Sunday school class is that in recent years, the "teacher" has become more of a "discussion leader" ... not necessarily being the most qualified person in the room but encouraging discourse from the group, many of whom have personal knowledge or expertise, or at the very least, have done considerable study. Just a personal observation I've had.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

And note that there is no such thing in the scriptures as a "discussion leader". They were always called teachers or evangelists.

[@chuckmartel1874]

Uh...that's been the church's explicit instruction for teachers. Congratulations for noticing the obvious

[@AnnaBellaChannel]

Welcome to Come Follow Me Home Centre Church Support curriculum.

[@manaze]

And that is why the classes are so unbearable nowadays. Nevertheless, given the resources currently available to each ward, I totally understand why these changes had to be made. So many of our changes we don't like, we have caused ourselves with a lack of faith and repentance.

[@lennym.s5453]

We asked God no to interfere so we can use our free will, we may suffer in the process but our eternal growth is much more important, God love’s progress and the way we figure it out

[@madogg152]

Every Revelation/Inspiration I have received came with MUCH PERSPIRATION. This is how Father works. If simply given, it isn't appreciated, and may even be ignored. The scriptures are clear, Only with WORKS Come the rewards. That applies to revelations. And, why would the Prophet be exempted. 100% of the Restoration of the church was not, Handed over to Smith, there is more restoration and revelation still coming and will as long as man is on earth.

[@mrseamons]

I feel this conversation leaves me with more questions than answers, so much room for error within the church that a person must rely on their own revelation from God than anything else. Very freeing in someways, the tendency to feel unworthy can now subside. Praise the Lord!❤️🙏

[@peckandabushel3065]

One thing I love about the gospel (and outsiders may find it strange to say) is that the gospel is intellectually satisfying or common sense. Gaining knowledge means changing.

[@scottmccoy7768]

Many in academia would love to be consulted with (for a considerable fee) and be credited in the footnotes. I see this as an attempt to start Priestcraft.

[@KarenJane-jq9oe]

In the year long study of Joseph Smith one of his 1st quotes was to seek truth where ever it is found...Buddha, etc. I remember reading Brigham saying how important is was to post and receive personal confirmation even about him. Wish I remember where... but both seem to say.. study and pray. Nice to here you reminding everyone.

[@537537]

John 8:23 “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”

[@jarenthompson915]

Basing truth validity off title, or PhD is extremely dangerous.

[@steez54321]

What's the alternative? Should we listen to people who think they know what they are talking about or people who are genuinely experts? Experts are fallible but it's the best we got.

[@jarenthompson915]

@@steez54321 Wisdom is the answer. to get a PhD, you submit a paper to other PhD's and they judge you, typically based on the mainstream narrative, to determine if you get the same title. Ex: refuting the majority of Darwin's evolution to promote a creation theory under God...do you **really** think I'd walk away with a PhD from an ivy league school? Wisdom comes from many sources, which can include a PhD, but the best source is God, the spirit, also self learning, experience, experiments... Academia has serious issues.

[@josephbradshaw7584]

​@@jarenthompson915Assuming that prophets are infallible also has serious issues. There needs to be a balance between seeking out learning from the prophets, scriptures and the best books.

[@jarenthompson915]

@@josephbradshaw7584 I don't dispute that either. When the prophet said to be immunized during covid, the spirit told me, "NO!, Not for you or your family!" Then a lawyer pointed out that immunization also means to become exempt, erego my family was "exempt" from following the dictates of the politicians & 'experts'.

[@MickDees]

Is this your plug for some Amway opportunity? Y’all don’t need college degrees and book learning?… Every field has a community of academia that picks apart the academic consensus of that field and through primary research adds to that particular field. The published studies have to run the gauntlet of reviews by their peers. Peer reviewed journals have helped us learn how to have things like heart surgery which our Prophet contributed heavily to, and many other apostles and prophets have contributed to in various fields. The alternatives are internet gurus, cult of personalities, “gut” tests, and uncles. Or…pseudo sciences…which is crackpots and con men tryin to sell you something…maybe in some fields your soul bud. Looking outside the box is great but not at the expense of ignorance of the lifetimes of failures within the box that point the way moving forward.

[@jihanjoo]

Another thing we have to keep in mind is that, in the context of the Plan of Salvation that says we're here on Earth to grow and progress by learning and also making mistakes (a LOT of mistakes), every time God just hands something to us as a "freebie" if you will, even if it's true knowledge, in a way that actually "deprives" us of an opportunity to grow. Even prophets and apostles are here on Earth to learn from their mistakes and grow. If God just transferred all knowledge to a prophet, He would, in a way, actually be taking away that person's entire reason and purpose for being alive in this world in the first place. (Yes, they are called to serve God and serve God's children, but primarily they were sent here to grow and learn for themselves just like anyone else.) God would actually be taking away that person's agency in a way because there essentially would be nothing to choose from! No faith to exercise because everything would be just knowledge already with no ambiguity. When I read the scriptures with this in mind, I see a repeated pattern of God inspiring and revealing (some) truths to his servants, but never more than is necessary. The biblical and BOM prophets are constantly in a mist. They are repeatedly confused and confounded. Often lost and discouraged and even scared. But it is when they put their trust in the Lord, exercise faith, and humbly seek for guidance from the Lord, that they receive just the right piece of inspiration or knowledge right at that moment to resolve whatever issue that is plaguing them at the moment. This is basically ALL of Nephi's experiences, for example. David, Daniel, Moses, Noah, etc. right down to modern prophets. This pattern shows up again and again.

[@lizlambert]

Best comment

[@stephanielibbert1668]

Key over looked word HUMBLY seeks guidance.

[@ElghinnLightbringer]

Prophets are called to be God's spokesmen. However, they are still fallible men, who seek inspiration, and receive revelation for our day. They do not know everything, just as we don't However, just like them, it is our responsibility to be faithful, and seek the Spirit, seek confirmation from the Spirit on doctrine, or things that are taught. Our relationship is with God an Jesus Christ, and their specific direction to us individually in our lives, through the Spirit is foremost for us. That's why Pres. Nelson has told us that we will not survive spiritually if we do not have the Spirit to guide us.

[@keystonelds]

💯

[@SaltyAlchemist]

Your guest was very insightful and logical. He really emphasized the need for more study and research among members. And if you ask me that is when you can most clearly hear the Lord speaking to you.

[@537537]

John 17:14-16 “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.”

[@Hazelnutmegan]

I find it interesting that he isn’t saying what “traditions” he thinks will go to the wayside as well as which “experts” the Brethren will defer to. Because I do believe that the prophets have access to knowledge outside of the best human knowledge which they combine with their best human knowledge to officially make decisions for the church and then they confirm that decision with the Lord. I know our Prophets and Apostles are not perfect. They can and do make mistakes. So, I’m not a person who believes they’re infallible. But whenever people tout the “grand changes” that are coming to the church, they inevitably are espousing a change from doctrinal beliefs to more worldly standards which have never been considered appropriate throughout the entire history of the world, like gay marriage. So, the fact that this gentleman isn’t willing to say which sort of radical changes he thinks are coming makes this feel deceptive rather than enlightening. And his constant refrain that all of us should just “defer to experts” (ironically experts like himself) makes me leery. Truly expert and factual truth is only strengthened by critical analysis, so it doesn’t need to just be deferred to.

[@TheHappyNarwhals]

I don’t think they’ll be super major but maybe major for some- example when they let women be witnesses for baptisms or be able to work at the recommend desk at the temple. There is no reason for them not to- so they made that change, which for some rejoiced and others may have been set in their ways or the tradition and thought the change was apostasy.

[@Mntn25]

Maybe allow women to give blessing like Joseph Smith did. And maybe retract that polygamy is anything but what Jacob explains in the Book of Mormon. This will surely be interesting.

[@Speedj2]

I dont think that gay marriage is out of the question, now that the church has acknowledged that simply being gay isnt a sin.

[@raddiemutto7934]

@@Speedj2 Gay marriage is not it - and will never be it. The church would lose the majority of its members. It is one of the few issues I personally will not put up with. I was actually thinking a change in the word of wisdom. Maybe coffee and tea are still discouraged but allowed. After all soda pop is probably just as bad for you, plus those heavy caffeine energy drinks. Word of wisdom is also a practice not a doctrine, so it does seem subject to change.

[@Speedj2]

@@raddiemutto7934 100 years ago, people probably would've said the exact same thing about allowing blacks into the priesthood.

[@EpicLinc]

If this is a move in the same direction of other 'churches'. It will be a very sad development.

[@watchman8047]

World wide church of God churches of God an example your right

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

Well, this talk just erased any reason for the LDS faith. Welcome to the rest of Christianity. Why have a living prophet if they are just “a fallible man influenced by culture”. We all can handle that job.

[@MrNickilynn121]

I disagree…if you read the Bible, God clearly deals with fallible prophets. Moses, Abraham, Peter etc…it’s just doctrinal.

[@PrairieChristianOutreach]

@ I think you are missing the point. If prophets are unable to provide “truth”, then what is the point of having so called prophets restore truth? Of course all of this ignores the fact that the LDS church is not based on a solid understanding of a prophet. A prophet in a Hebraic understanding is one who sees the world as God does. A prophet will build on the truths that have been provided. The LDS concept inserts the idea that a prophet can contradict previous truths with “new” truths or hidden truths. This is not a tenable concept when compared to Biblical standards.

[@Marvin-gb2nx]

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional" - Elder Russell M. Nelson.

[@RichardThePear]

Word of wisdom will change drastically. Prof Ben Bikman did a phenomenal byu devotional on the topic. Gone soon are the days believing that binge eating donuts and being 500lbs follows the WoW while using Caffeine as a pre-workout is unworthy of the temple.

[@refermanjon]

I dont know anybody that believes that "binge eating donuts and being 500 pounds" is following the word of wisdom. As a matter of fact. Anyone that's read the word of wisdom would know that isnt even close to the case.

[@jeannedunbar9418]

@@refermanjon yea, my neighbor couldn’t get a recommend because of his donut habit

[@refermanjon]

@@jeannedunbar9418 uh huh

[@brymstar]

"As a church we grew up with trauma" and we're at a part of unlearning, are mind expanding for me. I am ready to except unlearning to understand and learn from modern revelation🙏 grateful for this spiritual podcast

[@PresidentBrighamYoung]

While I appreciate many of these thoughts, it is important to recognize that academia WILL run counter to eternal truth. It is inevitable, especially with how politicized academia is now. We obviously must learn by study and faith, but ultimately, we should rely on the Holy Ghost, scriptures and living prophets to guide us. Additionally, trusting the "experts" can sometimes be the worst thing. Academia is truly politicized and it's obvious to anyone with any mount of commonsense. For example, academia is now pushing the idea that people can literally change their gender, or that men breastfeed etc. All of that is BS to anyone with eyes and ears. Trusting the experts is a good rule of thumb, but not necessarily the wisest move. Also, Ben, I agree that polygamy deniers are insufferable. That being said, if an "undergraduate" promotes a historical piece of writing, that doesn't mean it is unreliable and should be brushed off. The argument of authority is a dumb argument. Either someones argument is good or their argument is bad. Citing to credentials alone is a dumb way of making an argument. On the flip side, some of the dumbest most biased weirdos I have ever met are P.H.D's. Look to the arguments Ben, not the credentials alone. Credentials are good signs, but shouldn't be blindly trusted. ESPECIALLY in our modern world.

[@Sayheybrother8]

I think this is right. Do we hold the same view that the argument by authority is a bad argument when that authority is a church leader or prophet?

[@jacobbowers7137]

Gerrit Dirkmaat loves to make arguments by appealing to authority too. A lot of academics do this, breathlessly. Sadly, too many of them think they are the gatekeepers and the actual seers of history, and really a lot of them are a bunch of prideful windbags. When I did my masters I witnessed this behavior all the time, academics can be insufferable and fulfill the scripture “when men are learned they think they are wise” daily. Prophets are called of God and by His Authority, academics are not.

[@ryannilsson7955]

I was a little disturbed by the substance of this podcast, and this comment does a good job of summing up many of my main issues.

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@jacobbowers7137 as breathlessly as those who said blacks weren’t supposed to have the priesthood according to god and their pre earthly life actions are why they were cursed with black skin!!!?? You’re nuts dude!

[@philandrews2860]

I always love listening to Ben Spackman - thanks for sharing this very interesting discussion. The topic discussed is also one that is very near and dear to my heart & I'm very glad that the church is continuing to move in this direction. I too think there will unavoidably be many folks who will be uncomfortable with some of the new information and ideas that will be coming down the road, but I think it needs to happen and I believe that folks who might leave the church over some of the new information in the future will be more than offset, by many times over, by the resulting strengthening of the testimonies of both current and future members, helping them avoid the kinds of pitfalls that have happened over the past couple of decades when some members wind up with cognitive dissonance when finding new information the doesn't jive with what they have been taught previously in the church. This sort of thing will help more members to find the 'simplicity beyond complexity' as mentioned in this video, and I believe that we will lose less folks in the long run. I also think this will help us to navigate the waters of science vs religion and help us to better accommodate both without sacrificing one for the other. This will especially help those who, like me, are scientifically inclined, yet have strong testimonies of the Gospel - good science and our religion can and should go hand-in-hand. As a caveat, my thinking is more in the realm of physical science (including both church and world history) rather than the realm of 'social science'. Social science can be very subjective and can also be highly subject to new and existing cultural 'norms', and so I believe we have to be really cautious in that realm. But I also think that social science can be very helpful when it is tempered by the principles of the Gospel.

[@537537]

2 Ne 4:34 “O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.”

[@jasonsmith7100]

“Experts” always believe that they should be running everything because they’re the smartest in the room. While I agree with most of what was said in this video, we need to remember that when it’s all said and done, the Lord doesn’t reveal his doctrine to “experts”. They have a role, but the arrogance of experts has created countless issues. And mocking someone who self publishes a book because they don’t have the right degree is an example of arrogance.