J. Krishnamurti - San Diego 1972 - Conversation with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche - What is meditation?

J. Krishnamurti - San Diego 1972 - Conversation with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche - What is meditation?
Summary:
Krishnamurti in conversation with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan Buddhist meditation master and founder of the Naropa Institute in Colorado. Krishnamurti opens up the question of meditation, contrasting the system of practice with living observation. A vital meditation is see to be essential for the orderly quietness of the mind, which is then dynamic in action. -- What is the quality of the mind that is no longer held in the matrix of experience? - What is meditation? - Why should one meditate? - To see without the 'me' - Observation without time and memory - A total observation
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[@NoUsernamae]

Trungpa is quietly and actively participating in the conversation, listening attentively, making comments where he feels necessary, even enjoying some of K's remarks, while people in the comments are projecting their own beliefs onto him. If you actually observe/listen to this discussion, you can see none of what you people beating the drums of fairness for trungpa are feeling, is actually observable in his behaviour, expressions, speech, or gestures. A learning moment for anyone coming up with that conclusion. For me too, because I felt the same for the first 7 minutes, and then I started paying attention to trungpa.

[@gxlorp]

Yep.

[@js2010ish]

Yes, extra listens help to get through the projection.

[@gdallan6700]

People are projecting their possible orders wich always brings desorders ...

[@hip-hopjedi4423]

I like how he repeats about absolute peace of order to have K clarify that it's a most active mind, indeed 😅 this was a great conversation I rewatch from time to time

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

Yes… do you recognise how NO ONE has actually talked about the subject matter of the video? Rather accuse and judge and make sly remarks, argue over one teacher over another. All so egoistic!

[@L0wen]

Most of the comments seem to just be people looking for reasons to find favour with one man over the other "Krishnamurti talks too much, he's too logical" "Trungpa was drunk, he has too many controversies"......all missing the point 🤦🏻 This is not battle, it isn't Krishnamurti VS Trungpa Rinpoche. This is a lesson, ignore your personal feelings either way and detach from the forms that are giving the lessons. Just listen to the discussion.

[@BuddhaLove77]

As a Buddhist practitioner I agree with you 100%. I love Krishnamurti and Rinpoche is an obvious practitioner, he listens for real. A wonderful dialogue….. NewCultureofPeace&Love….Now!

[@legmonngagnam9483]

OK, what is the gist of what JK is trying to say in so may words. What did you understand?

[@sekubambadomino1671]

I don't think you know Rinpoche. You just heard or read. Knowing is a very dangerous tool.

[@jkws3724]

@@sekubambadomino1671 Tool?

[@stephenjobling9783]

No man is your enemy, no man is your friend ...all alike are your teachers. I salute the Buddha in you. However I do think Krishnamurti edges the battle (Despite a plucky effort from Trungpa!!!) I love you all.

[@Seb_Matte]

That's a monologue, there is no open space for a conversation from JK. Trungpa has been quite polite towards an elder, letting him talk, not pushing. All the points JK makes are covered & answered at length in traditional Buddhist teachings, and in CT's teachings moreover. I feel CT could have answered them anytime he wanted, though with the quantity of questions asked & points made, that would have needed a whole exposé of Dharma. I find it fascinating how CT conducts himself here. I bow to CT.

[@johnchappell9232]

Hes like a block of wood..no effort to engage..

[@kadaglundrub]

Emaho!

[@pemakhandro9130]

@Harsh Parekh read his books it is a much better discovery of him

[@barraspaziatrice7816]

@@pemakhandro9130 what? It's like trying to understand Hitler by reading Mein Kampf rather then getting to know some objective and historic facts

[@OscarWolf84]

JK talks so slow, he gives lot's of silences and opportunities for him to talk, he is asking questions all the time and CT doesn't want to answer, if CT doesn't talk more is probably because he didn't know what to say.

[@3AA2]

Chögyam answers Jiddu's question about "why should one meditate" by his composure alone. Very impressive

[@MaithiliKulkarni]

Wow! Great observation! Thank you! 🙏💙🙏

[@js2010ish]

Yes, he seems to be 'gray rocking' JK as the self-absorbed speaker. That is, disengaging by neutrality.

[@rodneytapit5636]

Bronson, Wow what a weird conclusion, look and listen! Chögyam's voice is small and forced and his breathing is rapid and shallow - body doesn't lie. K's is the opposite!

[@Miketar2424]

It seems a lot of people see these two as opponents, but I see Chogyam being open minded and intensely interested in Krishnamurti, while Jiddu goes on an expression of his own discovered truths. It was a gracious and generous discussion by two humble masters.

[@urgenlama7302]

@@rodneytapit5636 it doesn't matter what an odinary beings like us thinks about realized masters.

[@amalbandyopadhyay3517]

The "Jumping Jack" of intellect meets the "Everest" of Wisdom. 😊

[@steelonius]

😂 This is what I needed to read. Thank you.

[@amalbandyopadhyay3517]

@@steelonius 🙏💖

[@aquaimmy]

And what about us, just second hand people? 😊

[@MrTypepatrick]

K: "Let me prove to you I'm enlightened in spite of my childhood kidnapping." CT: " Wow. This guy's rap is fascinating. We should hit the pub together afterwards." Fun to project onto the gooroos....

[@dorjerabten]

😂😂

[@philippeforest8502]

J.K. was 77 and C.T. was 33. We're lucky to see and hear them. Merci à ceux qui ont rendu cela possible ! Témiscouata, Québec, Canada.

[@dasit6034]

this is one of the best videos ive seen in my entire life

[@truthlivingetc88]

yes I have been studying this one for about eight years

[@Miketar2424]

@@truthlivingetc88 That is so interesting to me, that this one piece of wisdom fascinates you so much, and you have learned so much from it. I am seeing this for the first time, after reading Trungpa's book 'Smile at Fear'. I would like to hear more about your thoughts on this video.

[@jiaogulan]

😊❤

[@js2010ish]

Blessing to those at the Foundation who operate this page, for preserving this content

[@albertozevi2139]

Meditation is the observation of disorder without 'the me'. In that total observation there is order. 08:14 if traditional meditation has no meaning, then what is meditation? 19:49 what is observation of disorder? 21:29 can there be an observation without 'the me'? 27:55 can the mind observe without time and memory? 34:04 does the observation of disorder bring order?

[@urgenlama7302]

To Observe the nature of reality as it is and when one sees there is no self ( unchanging , eternal and independent) as sees without duality of subject and object but a continuous changing process is what Buddhist meditation is about .

[@maurizioa5968]

Quando il tuo post viene tradotto in italiano l'espressione "the me" viene tradotta con "l'io", però meglio tradurla con " il me" per essere più fedeli alla traduzione italiana delle parole di Krishnamurti riportate nel video.

[@tiddlyNum]

I think JK was excited to explain his thoughts to another who could truly understand and who had a mind broad and wide enough. Insight comes the way it comes through one kind of practice or another. Perhaps JK's lifelong non-practice was itself a practice, a discipline. It was good to have dogma questioned, but just raising the question doesn't mean that centuries of technique and careful thinking need to be thrown out because there is a tendency for it to get mired in the ritual and religion. Ritual holds the place for generations so that those that are open to it are able to receive the insight when it comes along. Just because some practice ritual emptily or reach a dead end with it doesn't mean it isn't one of the only robust tools that can can be read and disseminated without being in physical form after many generations. What is missing in JK's picture is compassion/loving kindness. With that insight the imperative to help others detangle and be free, and not just free yourself comes. And also all the insight in-between being asleep and being completely awake. The other thing JK brings is a colonial education that is opaque to insight and can only work through the intellect. Insight as opposed to 'visions', 'trances' and 'seances' that JK rebelled against. You can get to the picture via intellect it seems - but there is a large chunk of possible experience that is missing along the way.

[@amitasthana]

They both are enquiring into a questions, if anyone sees them as questioning each other will not be able to see what is actually taking place in the video. They are looking answer for a question together, together being a keyword. Its not a quest, not a debate, not a discussion, but going into a issue together and finding a answer.

[@financechannel-bo7ew]

Knowledge is acquired dynamically through thousand of years. Its not one man chattering like he knows all the answers. Respect to CT for sitting through this.

[@sekubambadomino1671]

The greatness of Trungpa Rinpoche lies.very much in his ability to allow and embrace everything and gradually learn to go beyond it Krishnamu also a great teacher comes from the absolute. Unfortunately, we in our situation can only start from where we are. Trungpa Rinpoche is from this perspective the most brave and compassionate teacher of the 20th century

[@aashishsharma6533]

Call it fortunate that is the best situation to start from start from exploiting urself conciously will stop doing it eventually... start finding the right orders the real disorder will inevitably come out when there is no space left.. great teachers make dumb students coz all that student see is his greatness , rinpoche played a true roll of teachings the answers to many question no claim to provide superiority over something less valuable for the whole...

[@mlkj01]

Trungpa come from a Tibetan Buddhist lineage of authentic practice and teaching transmit through the ages. He is being a good person here and very humble, listening to all this blabla when he should be actually the one doing the teaching here ;) If you know about Tibetan Buddhism you know that he master already the topic with clarity , simplicity and has already the keys through his own study, transmission and practice of an authentic tradition in his own native language created specially for this knowledge : the Tibetan language. Obviously way ahead, patient, and kind to JK.

[@vinodlama3526]

Jk and both are great in their own ways .

[@imnlen]

two processes of extraterrestrial intelligence play it interacting. I really love how the first question took 9+ minutes to be asked.

[@imnlen]

do-gooder lol

[@aashishsharma6533]

A right answer will take less than a second to ans what an over exaggerated question

[@profjdurham]

This ended my 40 year affection for JK and his teachings, which have on JK’s own account not led to a single awakening. Trungpa gave him enough rope to hang himself, the arbitrary and solipsistic and self-serving nature of the JK verbiage just rolls on out - on reflection it is not surprising, JK being the direct product of, and reaction to, the theosophical phenomenon - the glee with which he thinks he is pouncing on a representative of “religion” is not an attractive move. Contrary to his pretensions, JK is not the first human to have figured out what us weird beings are doing with consciousness, and he certainly does not have the final word. Thank you for posting this powerful learning experience !

[@ཀལའུདིཨབྱམསཔ]

I love you , Rinpoche. Amazing posture 🙏🙏🙏🤍🤍🤍🤍🌸🌸🌸🌸

[@Highvibinqueen]

At 21:00 he says observe without the me. But with our consciousness I feel meditation is needed in order to see how thoughts arise and how none are the observer. One must do meditation to see such an experienced truth. Unless we are born this way and already have that blessing. Most of us do not. We are so programmed how can we even separate from the outside disorder. Once one can see how to come from a place that is not “the me” then meditation will be the state of mind. The natural state. Omg this is too good.

[@joyceconnor2913]

Precisely.

[@gabrielorville5334]

But if you are still somebody watching your mind, think you are still a thought. You are describing the movement of identity, not yet observing without "the me".

[@rmcc5017]

Wow. Never have I ever seen and heard so much said with so few words. Considering this whole video is basically just a monologue by the guy in the blue shirt (a bit ridiculous), the dude in the suit still managed to deliver his message. Amazing.

[@shelleypearceLMFT]

JK asserting there should be no teacher, and CT emerging from an honored lineage is a striking polarity between two absolutely different masters

[@amapeters1783]

Trungpa Rinpoche himself said it is a journey without a goal, but you must get there to recognise that, one cannot assume that at the beginning, KM is always talking from the absolute level, Trungpa is very much aware of that. For KM to assume Trungpa doesn't know that, is for me, very arrogant and disrepectful

[@ironmask0091]

@@amapeters1783 jk stands as mountain.

[@hsemu316]

I think in this conversation CT was more into listening mode and JK was willing to impart his wisdom fully to him...Not that JK was not allowing him to speak...CT was open to receive JK's wisdom....

[@dasit6034]

i think there was more wisdom coming from CT than from JK

[@OscarWolf84]

@@dasit6034 JK is giving him a lot of moments for CT to reply but he doesn't seem to know what to say most of the times. That doesn't mean anything about wisdom

[@ironmask0091]

@@dasit6034 ya drunken silence

[@Sannam_077]

Krishnamurthy almost asked Rinpoche a question for 20 minutes . The longest question ever .

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

The man does not answer?? Why?

[@jasongray7103]

In Emptiness there is no Order. In Emptiness there is no Disorder. All the skandhas are Empty. Recognizing the Emptiness of one's conceptions of Order/Disorder is the heart essence of Buddhist meditation.

[@marlopedroso1039]

Why meditate asks KM? Maybe so that you don’t fall so in love with your rambling, redundant thinking. I love how Trungpa embodies the fruits of practice, while KM just talks and talks in circles, in love with himself, even as he critiques the ego in the abstract.

[@192837qwert]

I dont think meditation is working for you 😅

[@snowlionmedia7276]

Trungpa listens with a kind smile

[@js2010ish]

Yes, sort of like the universe observing a clever thinker talk through itself...

[@anitawang356890]

Arrogance seems covered the host’s eyes. It’s obvious to tell who is a true master from this conversation. I was impressed by Rinpoche’s wisdom, calmness and patience. 🙏

[@192837qwert]

how is there wisdom in silence? just seems a way to romanticise ones guru, even if has added nothing

[@JustForfun-ok4ed]

He didn't answered Trungpa Rinpoche's "Don't you think in the living situation for a man that meditation happens a part of a life situation?"

[@ike.99]

I just have to say bc I see comments about Trungpa being drunk. I adore both jk and Trungpa. It’s no denying Trunpga had substance issues according to various sources. After all he was still a human and idc who you are we aren’t perfect as you should know. But you can also certainly tell Trungpa has a lot of wisdom to share. His presence alone shows that he certainly has a composure and way of expressing himself due to his practices and life experiences. To try to take all that away bc he had substance issue and then the claims he is drunk here is missing the essence of what he attempted to share with his life. Did he succeed? That’s up for people to determine. Imo he was not trying to be anything for anyone or prove how he mastered what he learned. He just simply had a lot of valuable transformative knowledge he wanted to share w/ the world. Take his life how you want. But there’s much to learn from Trunpga. Lastly in this video he has the composure of a meditator not a drunk off his ass. I’ve lived with alcoholics and they didn’t have this type of composure and way of expressing themself. And I’ve known lifelong meditators as well, no comparison imo. You can tell when someone is moderately to heavily intoxicated on alcohol. Now listen and watch the wisdom flowing from these two people in their own way.

[@js2010ish]

Indeed, well put.

[@legmonngagnam9483]

It looks as if JK is giving exam to Chogyam Trungpa. Trungpa is a patient teacher.

[@SaintNektarios]

Trungpa was probably drunk.

[@klausrain111]

@@SaintNektarios That is silly. One of his points is that, even while drunk, he retains wisdom. Many of us contemplate, read, listen, discuss these concepts over and over, to no avail really. They are much simpler than we think. Is he drunk? Maybe. Are you?

[@kunalarora927]

jk is best

[@dgtrancoso5]

tem varios relatos relativamente recentes de pessoas que conviviam com chogyam, e toda as vezes que ele aparentou estar bebado era teatro, nos bastidores ele conversada normal. Tática de mestre para determinada situação

[@WendyHou-uz5dv]

By just watching it, I got drunk. I am not sufi. @@SaintNektarios

[@lazertadpole4977]

Was this filmed in a rug shop?

[@bradleyarunachala6405]

Omg 😂😂😂

[@lalalistic]

I like the humming background

[@martinavavra1418]

I thought Krishnamurti was enlightened before i saw this 'interchange' with Trungpa

[@italohenrique8689]

Porque?

[@lindennerdhh]

Por que as pessoas acham que sabem o que é ser iluminado

[@colinecvrtier2799]

Thank you for this debate 🙏

[@johnchappell9232]

I guess he makes the point that in personal interaction with each other its possible to feel love. Yet when personal interaction is turned into a teaching thing with superior and inferior positions it's no longer love. That theres a space where love exists between us, and we should make that space the primary one.

[@TheJmart94]

Namas Trungpa Rinpoche. I can barely call this a conversation, with the percentage of time Krishnamurti spends talking.

[@SaintNektarios]

Trungpa was too drunk to add more to the conversation.

[@aashishsharma6533]

I dont know but why he is smiling in that wicked way 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣jk

[@WendyHou-uz5dv]

Trungpa is the greatest drunker in this case and the teacher. @@SaintNektarios

[@erikowings6729]

Trungpa sums up a 20 minute monologue with there is no observer observing.....that is meditation.

[@bayreuth79]

I am not sure that the claim that “there is no observer observing” makes sense. It is certainly not self-evident. Krishnamurti seems to be claiming that meditation is “nonsense”; but thousands of scientific studies have shown that meditation can and does help people reduce their suffering. That isn’t nonsense.

[@satoritravel3693]

@@bayreuth79 yes, that's a fact

[@annelbeab8124]

K talks about the end of suffering, not the reduction. The term meditation is used in two ways by him: referring to the way it is commonly understood and his definition of true meditation as a "choiceless awareness/ attention". It takes listening to more than one video to get used to his very straight forward and logic way.

[@frans7995]

@@annelbeab8124 Exactly. Meditation is Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness and Right Meditation--part of the cultivation of insight, which leads to wisdom, which leads to the abandoning of ignorance. But the Eightfold Path also consists of Right Action, Right Livelyhood, Right Speach, Right View. JK is saying that meditation is just a practice that its nothing without a practice which encompasses all life. The buddah taught the same thing

[@prakriti7894]

@@bayreuth79 Regarding seeking truth, meditation (in conventional term) is nonsense!

[@ShannonSowers-s9x]

I see it as JK describing CTs life to CT. CT represents “personal experience “ to his followers. They projected onto him and he used what he learned as valuable even though it is another form of conditioning or “propaganda “ as JK calls it. This is an elder gently and lovingly dismantling CTs ego.

[@drchuckles1203]

Krishnamurti kind of looks like a 200 year old baby somehow

[@ajayjoyt]

😂😂

[@JohnnyPilgrim]

Thanks for the sudden laugh

[@SilvertortoisePiano]

😂😂😂

[@SilvertortoisePiano]

@@JohnnyPilgrim me too 😂

[@js2010ish]

Well he was, as a child, viewed as the savior of mankind so that makes sense

[@shadowkill546]

Notes while listening: The orthodox path has always been the dissolution of the self. I think Krishnamurti is holding onto the prejudices that the Theosophists inculcated in him, and the resentment he acquired towards the Theosophists have merely reinforced those conditioned prejudices. He is right that, at the end of the day, it's the individual that has to travel the path, not some guru or guide. But the fact is, the average individual will make serious mistakes that will hinder their path. We see this all the time, it's something that traditional sources have always written about in order to warn people of the most serious and common mistakes. But today, within the neo-Theosophist movement, that is New Ageism, we see those same very mistakes being made. People chase after experiences in order to gratify the "I", thinking they are closing in on Enlightenment. And once they have a powerful non-linear experience, almost always they deify themselves, and then eventually form a cult that eventually becomes rife with sexual abuses and other narcissistic crimes that are expected of a human ego. We saw it in the past with the rise of the Yoga cults in California, we see it today with online youtube celebrities like Leo Gura [deification of the self, not necessarily abuse...yet] That being said, Krishnamurti does a great job clarifying what meditation really is. It is to remove the "me", to get it out of the way so that you can observe phenomena, as a structure of consciousness, objectively. The delineation between subject and object, between order and disorder, breakdown. One moves from duality to non-duality, but in that non-dual experience, there is order. He says that order must exist in this case, and it is because one can see very clearly that everything is the way it was meant to be. Without judgement, without discrimination, without the accretion of the past which we call the "me", everything is as it simply is. It is our judgement of order and disorder that there is disorder. But in the lack of judgement, in the total observation, there is order. Memory and time are the material of the mind. Memory is the basis of the "me", and time is the evolution of the "me". So then the question is, can the mind observe without memory and time? He says it is only possible when the mind is completely still. It's interesting he recognizes that the traditional people recognize this, I wonder who he was referencing. Tradition and orthodoxy typically go hand in hand, unless orthodoxy has departed from the tradition, which is the case in most religions. What he says is true nevertheless, and traditional practices, including the chanting of the names of God for instance, were actually ways of silencing the voice of the "me", eventually one would disappear in the chant, and eventually the chant itself would disappear so that nothing is left. And then, truth as inexplicability, may flash upon the canvass of the mind. The interesting thing about an authentic prayer or meditation on God is that one is placing expectation no longer in one's actions or in one's own abilities, but in this metaphysical reality we call God, as the ultimate agent, or the only true or real agent. It is about, therefore, surrendering the contrived will of the "me" and imbibing the will of that which is other than the "me". Memory and time are the material of the "me", but desire is the volition, the will, of the "me". As long as that will exists, then even if one works to silence the mind and observe without memory or time, the will of the "me", which perhaps is the substratum of the "me", will reignite the "me" and cause it to revive once more within the mind. So the effort is really about disciplining and silencing and bringing down the embers of these forces.

[@MaithiliKulkarni]

Thank you 🙏

[@js2010ish]

Yes, well put

[@norjangsyangden3856]

JK`s Order, disorder, the me, observation, silence, division are not new thing to any practising and studious buddhist. Hence, CT Rinpochhe did not see it necessary to put his answer forward. Instead, he patiently waited that JK would answer his own question. I love Jiddu Krishnamurthi, anyway.

[@AtoMicEyeScream]

Meditation is the way to bring order to the inner "house." Because of the transcendence that occurs. Just observing what is allows one to see a higher order, a disassociation from the disorder.

[@harryatkinson445]

Thank you Krishnamurti Ji and thankyou Rinpoche."K", You seem to be a Human Manifestation that Sees Clearly. Because of the molases of untruth that we swim in, it is difficult to find what You found, when we are living this tumultuous life. The Buddha explains(1) morality, (2) how to gather one's mind energy,(3)finding wisdom through application(4)and how 84,000 mind types arise through greed hatred and delusion. Without this vehicle of precious Knowledge being preserved for millennia, a few influential, unfortunate people in the world would have humanity totally under their control. But it is a double edged sword. It is only a vehicle to carry the Teachings.The essence ……. emptiness......clarity......a method to introspectively mirror the violence greed hatred and delusion. Temples and buildings aren't important. Practicing together helps us.Thankyou "K" , and Thankyou Rinpoche. With this Knowledge we can unlock our amazing abilities to be positive.

[@js2010ish]

Yes, an apt point.

[@ilikewoodwork]

I used to listen to JK a lot a few years back. In the last little while I've been looking into Buddhism. Interesting I felt that a lot of what JK talked about was very much in line with the basics of Buddhism. Now I've come to this video and feel that JK is telling a Buddhist about Buddhism but doesn't realise he is. I'm saddened by this. I still respect JK very much, but didn't realise how little he respected anyone else's view. He for instance says humans have never observed.... what about the Buddha? What about all the other great masters of the Buddhist and other traditions. JK almost seems to suggest that he alone had observed.

[@laganmahurat]

Be patient, dear you still don't understand or feel jk in true sense, he is not against anyone at all.....you are listening the most authentic and genuine master in the entire history of mankind...... I'm not saying that krishna, budhha, shankar, patanjali, rama etc are not greatest.....just see what jk said, you all the confusions and miseries certainly desolve in just a second.....so plz open your doors to the master, like you listen budhha himself. 🙏Love you bhai ❤️🙏🎉

[@aliergould9258]

"I'm a Buddhist and I need to be respected for being one", that's the saddest thing. Anybody can SEE that fat guy is responding to JK with his "Buddhist teaching dogma", rather than observing. His pride and dogmas prevent him from seeing anything.

[@aliergould9258]

But you don't see that do you? The only thing you see is "I would be so hurt if I was him". You only care about ego. For god's sake, the guy is as fat as a pig! A disciplined human being does not treat his own body like that! Look at the disgusting show he's putting up! I guess I can't say that either because it's 'disrespectful'? Wake up!!!

[@udaybhaskar448]

@@laganmahurat you put is so beautifully and earnestly...

[@subrotoxing8214]

it is amazing when the two great sages are actually discussing about how to best make people understand about how to cease the discriminating mind. And yet many people are missing the point. JK explictly says observation / meditation is useless. Yes as he did many times. But Trungpa remarked ... '(do not do it) intelectually'. The point of their talks is not to debate their literal statements but it should be an inspiration for you and everyone listening to practise doing meditation or what not to arrive at ceasing your discriminating mind. don't take JK advice literally intelectually do whatever is necessary and cease your discriminating mind. more to what they're both talking about. I would advise you to deepen your understanding about the buddhist mind in which theravada school are reluctant to talk about. What K refers as memory is the 8th consciousnes (store/alaya consciousness) and what he meant by time is the 7th consciousness (mana consciousness). Understand the 8 level consciousness in mahayana buddhism. This will give you context in what they're talking about.

[@renanlira6140]

I could watch this 2 going for hours. Such a rich content.

[@jamespaul6209]

To look, that is it. K begins with the premiss that observation or true meditation must be without the ideal of personal experience. That foundation is essential. Without the "me". And even when one sees the truth, don't grasp it or draw conclusions. Continue to inquire, continue to see.

[@joyceconnor2913]

Now I see why I never had curiosity around Krishnamurti's teachings.

[@ramsesmensink4080]

please give him a chance i think he is one of the greatest :D he is frustrating to listen too but he is talking the truth.

[@KingJorman]

But you don’t say much here. What’s your reason for saying what you say?

[@sonamkalinawan4065]

I admire Krishnamurti for his eloquence and speaking skills. However, in this interaction, Krishnamurti actually exposed himself - that he knew nothing about the higher teachings of Tantric Buddhism. K was trying to set his own premise about meditation and refutes the premises that he himself has assumed... Had Krishnamurti knew the teachings of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, then maybe he would have closed his mouth for once in his life... Trungpa is a master of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and most definitely Trungpa had more understanding and wisdom than K, it's just that K speaks english more fluently and has a fancy accent that people think K is more intelligent or wise or was the "bigger" thinker in this interaction. In fact, Trungpa was simply smiling at K at showcasing his realization of profound teachings, while Krishnamurti was blabbering for the most part, with his mind not being at rest, and not listening and hearing the other person. Sad to have said this as i also like Krishnamurti, but this is the truth in this interaction.

[@iulian9072]

The best interviewer, he's legit

[@garycleave9565]

Who is the I in me The watcher within The one aware when My mind wonders Here, there and everywhere Who with gentle breath and tender touch Stills my mind and guides me back to now Call the I what you will The East's suffering self Or the West's sentient soul Either way Does being mindful really have the power As some say To make us whole If we learn to pay attention And intentionally inhabit each moment of the day Instead of letting our minds stray And wander away

[@gruyerolivier1842]

Magnificent.....who wrote.?

[@Sunne2day]

There is no "I" that is aware. It is the nature of awareness to be aware and so it is just awareness itself that is what you speak of. No "I". Never an "I".

[@aashishsharma6533]

Being mindful is mot paying and attention at all to anything but to be in that moment is ..if u learn to not to pay attention only the u can get to know how to pay attention

[@krishnapartha]

Definition JK states of mediation: “Can the mind observe without memory and time?” Only took 20 minutes or so.

[@ray1johnson1]

Krishnamurti at 30:36: "Stillness is not a practiced acquired thing. It comes naturally when you have order." Trungpa approximately 15 minutes earlier at 15:02, the first sentence out of his mouth after listening to Krishnamurti drone on for 15 minutes, unnecessarily elaborating on one simple question as if Trungpa needed the question properly set up for him: “Don't you think in the living situation of a man that meditation happens as part of a live situation?" Trungpa never pointed out that he indicated the same thing as Krishnamurti did, but 15 minutes earlier. Even a very humble, respectful "that is what I said earlier" would have been appropriate. But, Trungpa did not.

[@guruladakhi416]

There is far too much theatre in what Jay Krishnamurti has to say which is nothing more than to quieten the mind by simply observing it without judgement, now commonly called “mindfulness.” But higher meditation starts with a view of emptiness of all compounded phenomenon which is the cognisance of non-intrinsic existence of the self or “anatma”.

[@mikez93]

Krishnamurti is a child in front of a giant.

[@keshava470]

Oh man this was a heavy one, i was reading his Trungpa's book "the myth of freedom" in which i coul so clearly see JK's influence

[@andrey.valeroso]

Thing is, when you listen to J. Krishnamurti, the "journey"/"processes" you thought are necessary for enlightenment just instantly vanish and you actually start-- living../ meditating..

[@sangaytanchong6337]

Truth can be seen in silence...let us meditate 😀😀

[@jewelsbypodcasterganesh]

You can really tell who practices and who doesn't.

[@eri43265j]

Yep. Who really live the teachings and who just talk about it

[@ab-gs7hh]

Someone has reached and the other one not. Practicing meditation mechanically without insight can make the mind dull.....it doesn't matter how many books one writes then

[@jewelsbypodcasterganesh]

@@ab-gs7hh it sure can. I've noticed that myself.

[@pcc.4954]

JK lives in his concepts, and if he could stop his "thinking" , he could get closer to the answer of his question.

[@vinodlama3526]

its not concept .The mahayana sutra traditions also take in this approach .​@@pcc.4954

[@HeySadEye]

The observer is the observed. The commenter is the comment. I see people spilt in two in this comment section discussing who is what. I think to whom you were exposed first is playing a major part here.Is one dull or patient? Is one inconsiderate or too considerate?

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

Trungpa points out - creating a stillness is not right, rather… seeing in a non dualistic way brings the energy of stillness. JK says a similar thing - order will bring out stillness. That is very true as well… when your mind resolves some kind of issue which has been bothering it for a long time… it naturally falls into a non-dual state. Therefore, stillness.

[@tonhettema1005]

I only saw the first twenty minutes, wherein Kris raises some pertinent points. Seeing that meditation has become a vogue in the west since the seventys without asking and answering the preliminary questions: why, for what, what is it, which meditation, how, etc. It seems that Kris rightly suggests that for most these questions are avoided or neglected..

[@PS-gv2kr]

I am so happy ........thank you ....krishnamurti's teachings in my language.....Wow😊😊😊😊

[@mikez93]

Krishnamurti sure likes to listen to himself speak. Kind of sad. Just close your mouth dude.

[@mikez93]

He can’t see that he is a child sitting in front of a master.

[@kevingronemeier6646]

Krishnamurti taught no methods. The man across from him only knows through methods.

[@swingingcrow124]

@@kevingronemeier6646 would you not teach a child how to use a spoon ? Or you would just keep quite, giving no “method” at all

[@marvingainsborougify]

I like JK talking. Why should this be inappropriate?

[@nalijo4419]

When there is no me there is no disorder, the secret lies here

[@nightcandle62]

then plus love=world peace

[@jameswolfaardt]

Fascinating video. I learnt a lot .

[@superking1546]

Man only wants to hear himself , seeker will seek, krishnamurthi will debate😂😂

[@AL_THOMAS_777]

😁😁😁😁

[@garypuckettmuse]

I love JK; he's done a lot for me. That said, this is not his best moment. On the other hand Trungpa's composure throughout this half hour long tantrum is almost supernatural. I wonder, in 1972 how much exposure the two had to each other prior to this meeting given there were recordings made of both but no outlets for showing them to speak of. Trungpa seems totally ready and JK seems completely unravelled that he is unable to provoke him. And just think Trungpa had only been out of monastery for a few years whereas JK was raised from a tiny boy in the western world. Both with silver spoons in their mouths, however:)

[@SaintNektarios]

Trungpa was probably intoxicated. He had serious substance abuse issues.

[@js2010ish]

26:13 is a wonderful moment. Trungpa the mischevious, being told "One does not meditate to gather energy to be mischevious," laughs. The laughing smile at that and the Hare Krishna notion JK paints are wise.

[@markjennings2605]

​@@SaintNektariosyou have an even heavier substance abuse issue :catholic puritanism !

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

So ready to judge them both… having “silver spoons”, being from Western society, monastery…

[@Sonam-2]

Chogyam Trungpa is really listener.

[@sangaytanchong6337]

Trungpa seems to read the jks mind and laughing from inside. Like...how busy is he in logic....which makes one away from truth😀😀

[@mayurpatil7323]

Yess that's true.jk was brutally into logic and rationality

[@TimdeJongSk8Spug]

Like your asumption makes you move?

[@نوفاببالعلم]

Everyone is talking and theorizing, but no one is solving any of the problems of people around the world.

[@jatintawari]

The stream of the absolute is an inexhaustible source - it's not a zero sum game.

[@mateoboy11]

I'd be embarrassed for krishnamurti if not for the arrogance exuding from him... the terror of 'his point' quietly listening across from him.

[@Rudrakshstf23]

You people want entertainment out of this hence all the comparison and sly remarks. This conversation is order and behold it holds the mirror to our own disorder , just read the comments. Observe without knowledge and time , dont bring the personalities into this. Its not personal. This conversation or as a matter of fact any conversation is meditation. If you look, without yourself.

[@vgambaco]

Oro. Grazie mille

[@nizamma2381]

Meditation is not personal achievement sitting next to god. Meditation is a state of mind wch the 'ME' is absent and therefore that very absence brings order.

[@urgenlama7302]

It would be more meaningful and helpful for all those seekers if this conversation would have been longer .As there were many things to be explore .

[@FaithlessFollower]

This is real Hardcore

[@js2010ish]

🤘🏼

[@jkhaski5195]

Thank you 😊

[@littlejasmine6482]

Summary : Meditation in the absent of "me", that absent brings order, and you must have the order to go any further ...

[@Phuntsokyo]

25:24 That is meditation 🧘‍♂️

[@DharmaBum1984]

Neurosis vs. One Taste

[@tracycottrill1886]

Lol it's a good speech of knowledge from both points of views but the decoration of Kleenix lol that had me crying😂😂😂😂

[@seanchiwowa8823]

Jidu literally asked a question and then answered it himself.

[@subhaschandrabag]

Thanks

[@junvinak]

Ones the same Krishnamurti said “Buddha learnt without reading books” . Can not be denial that Buddha’s meditated and his act of meditation gave him enlightenment. Isn’t it that Buddha inspire a larger number of western thinkers? Westerners that probably never meditated.

[@notredamedeimmaculeeecoule6565]

they meditate. they just called it "fishing." now it's a sport and there's an app and stuff. but back in my day they just called it "fishing" or "being still."

[@alishathakali7442]

It is just a talk between two intelligent people....and sharing their knowledge that's all...

[@swingingcrow124]

I respect JK but here he seems to be in a state of a parent lecturing his child without knowing when to stop to the point the child gets annoyed and ends up not listening to it.

[@Echoofstillness]

He sounds very informative, maybe because he is confident. I wonder where he grew up and with whom??

[@MrTypepatrick]

Trained by founders of Theosophy.

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

@@MrTypepatrick Theosophy doesn’t use much of the concepts he discusses. His language is his own. In fact it changed over years as he tried to describe it more accurately and so that people wouldn’t be attached.

[@andrefriedrichs1514]

Good conversation implies 2 factors: 2 People at minumim who are able ,open to listen to the othersexpression of thought and express there own thoughts.Thats what i would call an Conversation.:) Q: Is that meeting an conversation ? :)

[@js2010ish]

This? No. JK has a formulated point against dogma which he presents, presumably attempting to goad CT into its defense. He is used to, in this lifelong series of dialogues, speaking to British scientists and American priests or psychologists who look at him as an eccentric or museum study and stare at him with wisdom as they help push the conversation on. There is benefit in those. He is not just chatting but also producing tv/video content--as seen in his multiple times asking an off-stage producer, "Is that enough?" He doesnt want a conversation, only to convey his logic and point: human disorder exists and historical religion doesnt help. I would say there appears to be an underlying fear of Shutting Up, to stop harping on the point and sit in the quietness. CT's language barrier also gets trampled over. But, it is what it was or is. (I'm not as pro CT as others here. Seems young and unable to cut through the Socratic blather. Ultimately it feels like a dinner conversation--when the chatty self-absorbed one doesn't get engaged with, they move on.)

[@kwabenantim]

Order looking at disorder. Is it possible for disorder to see disorder? Does witnessing disorder cause the viewer to categorize themselves as being in order?

[@lokeshparihar7672]

27:00 krishna conciousness

[@Ivan-xg1zo]

JK seems like he's fighting his own battle here... which is fine, but he wouldn't be talking about this stuff if not for the tradition in some respects. Perhaps I should read JK's books, but perhaps JK should've read CT's books, which detail better than any source the pitfalls of the path and of meditation in particular. Perhaps CT should barge in to make it more interesting, but I don't think he cared to tbh. I'd like to give JK the benefit of the doubt and say that this is his expression of a clear/enlightened/active mind, that he is sincerely asking Chogyam for a real dialogue and not jabbing at his tradition, but at times that is a painful stretch. His point about creating disorder from pattern, memory & time's relation to the "material of the mind," etc are great however.

[@SaintNektarios]

@@sd67b Trungpa was probably drunk out of his mind during this conversation.

[@frans7995]

JK didnt write books, just a personal diary. All his books are talks edited and printed

[@steelonius]

Trungpa Rinpoche walked with Krishnamurti to a point of insight, to which Krishnamurti either, barely realized had taken place, or was embarrassed when he got there. Then looked around to ask if it was over.

[@andrefriedrichs1514]

JK got a run :) hahaha...he´s in the zone,seemingly exited about what expressions comes out of him :) LOVe it :) Great in many ways

[@aashishsharma6533]

😂😂😂lol so wicked seems like a boy who has just fallen from the cliff and trying to push the other down the clifff

[@Northerners646]

Is Jk himself doing analytical meditation?

[@uschischueller4643]

I don't think he was familiar with that. He was allergic to teachers, teachings and formal practice. Unfortunately he tended to throw away the baby with the bathwater. Still spot on though in many ways.

[@helio012]

“Personal experience has really no value at all, where truth is concerned.”

[@WendyHou-uz5dv]

Wrong!

[@sangaytanchong6337]

Sir.... experience is sensual. Truth can't be sensed, it can only be realised with wisdom, itself is wisdom, subject objects are not two different things at realisation level, because what mind realise is no other than it's real nature itself which can't be termed in words and can't be thought of.

[@sidhantsharma9961]

Yes, the truth can only be grasped Intuitively. I still feel some kind of meditation practice is necessary as the very nature of the mind is turbulent. It has to be a bit under our control and only then can we head towards the direction of truth. If it's ever restless then the 'me' feeling that Krishnamurti is talking about is difficult to let go.

[@howdareyou5800]

The great Chogyam Trungpa was like a student hearing the teachings from Maitreya.

[@aashishsharma6533]

Maitreya realllyy😂 not even a sentinent being

[@snowlionmedia7276]

Trungpa was observing murti's disorders

[@Lostandfoundhere]

😂

[@trostnils2]

Just to be aware...

[@ab-gs7hh]

Someone has reached and the other one not. Practicing meditation mechanically without insight can make the mind dull.....it doesn't matter how many books one writes then

[@crudough]

Reached what? There’s nothing to reach :)

[@ironmask0091]

You are right. So a drunkard, cocaine addict, wominzer can always reach there because one thing that absolutely lacks in him is mind. Intellect is not easy to aquire nor any joe gets that without gods grace. Question about reaching is again speculative.. no one knows if someone reached there. Atleast one who reaches there wont feel it impulsive to drinking and other addiction. One who was not able to control his addictions and basic instincts dont sound much like a realized being.

[@dhondupgyatso7603]

❤️

[@PaganBookClub]

but how do you observe without the "me"