J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1976 - The Transformation of Man - 3 - Can I completely change...

J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1976 - Small Group Discussion 3 - Can I completely change at the very root?
Summary:
Why do human beings live in such appalling misery, accepting it for millennia?
Is it possible for a human being to change at the very root of his being?
Who is going to tell me? Is it Marx, Lenin, Mao, the Pope, or the local priest? Authority exists because human beings are in disorder. In the rejection of authority I become very sane. When I reject authority I have more energy.
What is correct action in life? I can only find that out if there is no disorder in me. 'Me' is the disorder. However 'real' the 'me' is, it is the source of disorder.
---
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[@gc7304]

I was also annoyed by Shainberg at start but then realized that he represents most of the people, us..

[@ctrlgamin]

Me too

[@user-nb3mq3cg8k]

He's trying to carry the conversation. That is essential in order to clear out all doubt and redirect the whole points of the argument.

[@ovymeme]

What a gift to humanity this conversation is. In this age when everybody tell you what to do and how to behave, full of guru's and demagogues and followers. Everybody wants a wuick solution without diving really deep by themselves.

[@mikecastaing3781]

DS was annoying me in all these meetings but eventually I realized how incredibly difficult it must have been for anyone to have so many talks with JK. The man could shatter your entire foundation with patience and kindness.

[@socco90]

I appreciate him being there, he raised questions and concerns and views most of us have, making this whole conversation really relatable, everyone in this round is fantastic

[@meghbhavsar3968]

DS speaks for all of us. I find Krishnaji the most accessible, and it's precisely because of DS probing fearlessly into these extremely subtle "ideas". JK has investigated on several occasions before if thought can be aware of itself, i have heard him talk but it never seeped into my being. I am grateful to DS, who was not afraid of looking like a fool, who pushed K to elaborate deeply.

[@user-nb3mq3cg8k]

​@@meghbhavsar3968 True, somebody needed to clarify things- and even though Krishnamurti doesn't agree with all of what he says. He is at least trying to present an argument when the crowd goes silent- and that carries the argument to clarify certain points and redirect the argument

[@27fenderbender]

I still remember the moment I found these conversations, I watched all eight hours in one day. I was completely captivated by krishnamurti, still am. It’s a journey that the individual must want to go through to understand this. It was like when Andy Dufresne crawled through the pipes and found freedom in the movie Shawshank Redemption. I hope one day humanity changes, hopefully before we enslave ourselves forever.

[@imdeexpert5828]

I dont agree with Jiddu that the world is a horror and a miserable place. I question him, how does he know? The quality of "horror" and "miserable" lets examine it. How can you be conscious of it? Unless there is "delight" and "contentment". THAT is the only way you know of it. In this world of mortality it exists both sides of the same thing. So to dismiss this world as "bad" is impossible unless you know what is "good".

[@LEDISC]

Are you still with Krishnamurti?

[@kooroshrostami27]

@@imdeexpert5828 The painful cannot be perceived without the pleasurable, that is correct. They also say exactly that later in the discussion: "pleasure and pain are 2 sides of the same coin." I think the crucial point here is K. argues that these kinds of pleasures are only possible due to delusional thinking. I think a good example is security. The sense of security feels very good. But as Böhm already points out in part 2 as well, seeking psychological security is a complete delusion. Security always presupposes permanence, security means that things will remain good. If I have food only today, this is not security, but if I know I have food permanently, that is security. The problem here is that all things are impermanent, life itself is, your health cannot be maintained forever, age will inevitably diminish it and the ego will also be gone with death. So the demand for psychological security is absurd and the pleasure in security is only due to deceit. Now the alternative is that I see that my demand for security is absurd and thereby it goes, I am free of it. I won't feel pain when it is denied, I don't seek the pleasure of it, now there is freedom and peace. That is also good, but a totally different kind of good than pleasure.

[@thereeltoreal]

​@@kooroshrostami27beautifully explained!

[@pourlamouvance]

Shaingberg is necesary, if you see, there are lots of him in oneself

[@socco90]

Yea totally appreciate him being there

[@swainchampagne]

God Bless this guy in the white shirt. He just can't help but miss the point on everything. Krishnamurti has the patience of a saint.

[@AjaySinghHooda]

K has his own patience, the eternal one, but he can't be equated with saints. Saint exists only in our mind.

[@ivangohome]

a NY psychiatrist baffled by the prospect of change 😄 hope psychology moved on since then

[@kooroshrostami27]

​@@ivangohome If he wasn't a psychiatrist, then I would say: Well, he is just too deepy engaged in his field and too deeply conditioned by scholarship to inquire with a fresh mind and be rid of all the conclusions, but since he is a psychiatrist, he should be able to have a change of perspective. How can you work as a therapist if you can't change your perspective and try to put yourself in the patient's shoes?

[@fredynavarrete7933]

thanks to dr Shainberg (i had, no I,) there was mi first insight, because dr Shainberg represent us!!

[@evehutton5906]

It's 2023.. and K's impassioned plea.. "I don't need you!" and.. "..tell him..!" has me in laughing out loud! My mum used to say.. "He who sees it.. knows it.." which means he who cant see the truth of the matter, simply does not have the capacity to know it in that moment.. poor Dr S... his impassioned statements makes me smile though.. across the mists of time!

[@souravdas-zp1kt]

Can the thinker be aware that he is thinking? It can. At that very moment thought stops. Thank you Krishnamurti ji.

[@carlavela7106]

There is no thinker. There is no-body. When Mind fragments itself it becomes an ego to experience each thought or desire. It's the Mind who is always moving into new experiences, because it is addicted to fragmenting itself. It gets lost into de labyrinths of the fragmented lower mind. But the Mind can be aware of its own thoughts and movements.

[@kunalarora927]

@@carlavela7106 what about soul

[@lakshyabajpai4430]

And what after that the thoughts stops after that

[@viveviveka2651]

The "me" is itself an idea, a thought, accompanying other thoughts. The knower is itself a "known" - a known thing. It's all just made of thought. The knower, the me, is not different. The idea that it is different, special and apart from thoughts, it itself an idea, a thought.

[@brankabozic1991]

hvala za slovenski prevod- s kakšno ljubeznijo, inteligenco in preprostostjo Krishnamurti vodi razprave z eno samo željo, da bi človeška vrsta odprla srce in uvidela resnico.

[@pallavivj79]

Extraordinary conversation

[@carlavela7106]

The problem of the Mind is that it is addicted to having experiences. So it is always fragmenting itself for entertainment.

[@aash2009aash]

I laughed like crazy inside when he said ," Old boy "!

[@sanjithleo829]

46:00 The most important insight. Can thought be aware of it's own structure ?

[@Naranja1792]

Love this one..K laughed a lot in this video and got shocked as well 😂😂appreciate this video so much❤️❤️

[@AlexJurj]

Wonderful

[@san2k6pat]

Dr. Shanbergs understanding ..regarding the word is not the thing but at the same time " word is seeing the movement of another word" towards the end of the video was great

[@aliveli-hq6zk]

I can't watch because of him

[@sbrave6572]

@@aliveli-hq6zk this comment made me laugh! 😀 … I know where you’re coming from! … poor DS…. Caught between the other two brilliant (+ patient) folks who finish each others’ sentences!

[@matselik]

very deep dive in consciously of man.

[@what_um_what6690]

This was actually very intense and entertaining. The shorts format or taking snippets out does very little justice to what JD tried to achieve. When watching the complete session, think of yourself as the fourth person sitting there. From time to time analyze what and why other is saying, as you would do when sitting in a group of friends. JD is one of the very few sources who may be called a Gyan yoga practitioner.

[@OnePercentBetter]

45:35 - First time in this series I see Krishnamurti give a concrete prompt to shatter the illusion of a self (self-inquiry, non-duality, advaita vedanta, jnana yoga)

[@carlavela7106]

A neurotic person hasn't have the disposition to investigate itself, because the mind-ego is so fragmented, it is in a turmoil state. It is very difficult to calm down the mind to look or observe itself. To slow down the chattering, must practice some meditation to reguide the mind.

[@OnePercentBetter]

I've heard it said that the aim of a Saint, True Guru, Master, - is to to bring your mind to silence. I see this transpire, starting at 45:56 with dialogue, 46:36 for the silence, and 47:02 for Doctor Shainberg's proclamation!

[@corpuscallosum4479]

Can "I" completely "change" at the very "root"? A relative, center-based question that has: 1) center, 2) time, 3) origin and 4) movement in it. Paradoxical, absolute truth is the cessation of this "I", No subject, verb nor object, only non-linear, absolute Truth's been realized can true actions move in this physical vessel in this relative, time-space world. Thanks K and friends.

[@AnthonyHoward-ru8su]

It seems to me that the people who could benefit most from listening to Krishnamurti are the ones who are most stubbornly behind a wall of conditioning that would keep them from listening to him...I suppose as someone who listens to Krishnamurti is to understand what is talked about as well as I can and try to bring that to the world hoping to bring light to those who are still conditioned

[@Nothingbuttruth0]

i look within, i see thought, and see words, words that try to describe some energy, energy that rapresents some event of life , life that is a moment that i cant grasp...i cant explain trought my intelect becouse for it is a paradox. So by doing an introspection, thoughts are not aware of themselve, it's like they nead to attach to human consciousness to be refine and seen. Like a flower that is seen in her beauty and perfume.

[@malcolm5969]

omg at 39:47 guy in white shirt really startled k. can't stop laughing

[@emanuellopez8578]

So since everyone is mocking Shainberg xD I think is necessary to look his good moments like this one 36:48

[@drdiptisinghgopal433]

I was going through the extreme delema of following an authority which my heart knew was not the truth and then suddenly I happen to see this video

[@MaiteYailenGarciaCarralero]

Grazie.

[@OnePercentBetter]

36:57 First time I see Doctor Shainberg starting to get it!

[@maiteyailengarciacarallero8811]

Grazie

[@imdeexpert5828]

I dont agree with Jiddu that the world is a horror and a miserable place. I question him, how does he know? The quality of "horror" and "miserable" lets examine it. How can you be conscious of it? Unless there is "delight" and "contentment". THAT is the only way you know of it. In this world of mortality it exists both sides of the same thing. So to dismiss this world as "bad" is impossible unless you know what is "good".

[@krox477]

You need to step out of your house

[@user-nb3mq3cg8k]

His anarchism and too much observation instead of empirical knowledge. Kind of confused me. But his observation though definitely lights up another approach

[@chartedbeast3347]

Shainberg is fighting for his life🤣🤣🤣

[@AlejandroSilveiraBruno]

LA DIFICULTAD DE QUE EL PENSAMIENTO SE VEA A SI MISMO...

[@adamjzimmer]

Wow.

[@Nothingbuttruth0]

Why? Lack of love and egoic way of being, that's why. We are corrupt in our being and lack in introspection, accepting and refine our corruption. Fear of each other. Lack of inner observation.

[@lokeshparihar7672]

36:48 very act of word being seen as thing by conciousness is the very movement we are investigating.

[@cosmicrider3]

A belief was given by my ancestors to help me, but thats the very thing that traps me, the illusion looks like the thing.

[@MaiteYailenGarciaCarralero]

🙂 🙏

[@pasitponvatcharavongvan536]

Can one's thought be aware of one's own thought? What is an answer? My answer is yes. And a question is what happen after that? Isn't it silence?

[@AjaySinghHooda]

Nope. Till the point you remain, there's no real watching.

[@laiamolto954]

@@AjaySinghHooda hey, could you ellaborate on this?

[@keithturner2895]

@@laiamolto954 I'm curious about this as well. My initial observation was that thought could not be aware of its own movement. Dr. S characterized this as thought stopping but K jumped in and cautioned him not to characterize it this way? K seemed to be suggesting that what was happening was a transformation of sorts as opposed to an ending? Dr. B supported this by suggesting that thought was not fixed therefore it could change? Can anyone clarify this at all?

[@spider161]

@@keithturner2895 Thought isn't just the words, it's the whole process. When you observe the words, they go quiet. But that doesn't mean you're not thinking anymore, because the act of observation still requires an initial thought to be running in the background. Like when they gave the example of looking at something under a microscope, it just changes. It doesn't stop being what it was.

[@KINGJUNAID555]

​@@spider161well explained...

[@argath_vugto]

simon understands it 37:09

[@nefariouscoon]

There is a high frequency noise in this video around 10kHz which makes it uncomfortable to watch. It'd be great if the audio could be filtered. Thanks!

[@auggied6760]

It is amazing that Shainberg with his lack of depth was actually a therapist. He is like a kid in school who is clueless but wants to be right to please his teacher so he tosses out buzz words as if he’s adding to the conversation. It’s annoying to listen to him. I have watched this series ten times over the years and find him to be an unnecessary distraction.

[@somename6571]

Doctor plz. stop screaming with a huge smile what has already being said lol xD

[@kazimaydar1027]

Free people😎🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈

[@ourloveourjourney215]

Where to leave us on a cliffhanger!! Lol 😂

[@what_um_what6690]

I don't think JD's intention was ever to hand out the answer to you. If he does that, he becomes authority and that goes against his basic principles. His idea is to let you think, realize, analyze and come to a conclusion. If you are wandering around a lot, he may give slight nudge as to what to think on or whether what you are thinking holds true.

[@jorgegarciapla6880]

Under the notion of the local universe, what I do has a negligible effect on the vast universe around me. Locality implies an objective reality, governed by time and space, made up of a sum of independent objects (fragmentation). But this no longer makes sense. The quantum vision, which merges the physical world (the observed) with the mind (the observer, "I"), speaks of a non-local universe, where everything is intertwined. The automatic way, surely, to address this is to say that, for example, "if I move my hand, some distant galaxy will be conditioned, instantaneously, by that movement." However, this statement denotes that one is reading nonlocality even from locality. According to the notion of local universe, the observer is independent of the observed, i.e., objective reality is independent of whether or not there is observation of it. The non-local universe is what David Bohm conveyed to us as "implicate order": an undivided, unbounded (borderless, fragmentless) multidimensional space. Thus, the whole universe is fused with the observer, i.e., there is no observer-observed differentiation. The apparent multiplicity of defined, separate forms is the "explained order": when there is observation, something concrete is observed, otherwise there is nothing defined. This order coexists with the implied order: of course, something is observed, but it is, in some way, complementary to the observer, they are not independent elements. Therefore, there is no objective, shared or universal reality, as classical physics.

[@michaelsaunders6241]

WHY?! Are we all crazy?

[@rosariograciasmesientomybi3365]

Gracias, Gracias, Gracias. Como adquirir toda la obra de este grande senor? Costo y demas informacion. Si fuera posible .

[@Aharaleb]

Todo está disponible y gratis. Mira en la descripción del video por los enlaces. Saludos

[@yacovmitchenko1490]

Throughout the whole discussion there's a tacit assumption that rationality - that genuine listening and inquiry - without reliance on authority may help to bring about change, or order. I'm not sure any of this is enough. Rationality seems to me a surface feature of consciousness; it doesn't have the power to transform consciousness radically. Nowhere here in these talks do we find individuals who have become viscerally aware of those fierce unconscious tendencies (toward aggression and so on). Can rationality dissipate or dissolve all those aggressive tendencies deep within the psyche? No. Genuine listening and thoughtfulness, openness, fine as these are, are not powerful enough. Rationality never can and never will transform us radically because we're not fundamentally rational. We're simply not built that way. More often than not, the pre-rational USES the rational, not the other way around. To think that the rational can transform the pre-rational is like thinking that the puppet can sway the puppeteer. Krishnamurti speaks as though the highest intelligence were order. "Order" here meaning what exactly? Is the universe at large orderly in a way that we poor humans are not? There seems to be regularity in the way that our universe operates - to some degree. But who knows? In another universe, 2 plus 2 may equal 5 - because other laws operate there which we couldn't understand. And how do we know that the apparent "disorder" that we experience daily is not in service to "order", whatever that means? Cancer, for example, is "disorder" to our bodies, but it may partake of some higher order. Who knows.

[@jackpopo6039]

Seeing things as they are is not rationality. Rationality is thought. Of course the thinker cannot change with tought. What brings about change is to simply observe without effort. As the whole physiology is meant to be.

[@Gaurinathan]

I agree with Jack. He's not actually trying to solve the problem through reason, but proving through reason that it is so, so you will have to solve it by shutting up shop.

[@Ninja04051]

That's your assumption based on your conditioned mind, he is not talking about rationality anywhere infact he goes to the height of "absurdity" rationaly with statement that morality is causing nurosis . What K is asking is to find for yourself if there is something other than " rationality " and "irrationality" in short thought/ self / ego

[@ivanvega1535]

As far as I understand is direct perception that brings about that change, and that direct perception is not of our own, it is Intelligence and Love, a fine energy acting on ourselves dissolving the conditioning. The "hard part" is that we have to be continously alert, in attention as he puts it, to be emptied of the conditioning. It is like cleaning a pool, you have to do it till it is all clean. The thing is that for most of us this happens fleetingly, we don't have the seriousness to cleanse, clean, empty our old selves minute by minute. It is such an ardous thing, probably the hardest thing to ever do in our lives, and I say hardest in appearance because effort will only prevent it.

[@jokerbatman6177]

Order here means eternal silence or peace or whatever you want to call it.

[@williamwasilewski7925]

We are a sick 🤒 society today ❤️‍🩹🙏🏻

[@kooroshrostami27]

Yes it seems we are going backwards psychologically. While the technological world is evolving, the psychological is degenerating further. Every 2nd person on Social Media is talking about "self-improvement", insta, TikTok etc. have become a colossal machinery of breeding narcicissm, everybody wants to be seen and seems addicted to constant self-affirmation.

[@ramongomez8849]

🙏🏻

[@piyushk7144]

OMG!!!

[@Llm-omji33]

41:48 why he said everything is thought except nature? It is not ALL reality created by thought? It is not ALL things parts of an indivisible whole? I don't get the separation between nature and things/events created by thought

[@CaioMartins90]

Não sei se entendi sua pergunta direito, mas o K quer dizer que embora o pensamento não criou a natureza, ela é uma realidade.

[@maiteyailengarciacarallero8811]

☺️

[@KINGJUNAID555]

45:26

[@filmreader3064]

I like how jk laugh like a child

[@jswootheblackscreen]

See man see

[@TheSageCafe-jc3xb]

44:53

[@maheshkb9781]

13:00 The entity that wishes to change,sets the pattern of change therefore the pattern is always the same under different colour 18:45 I is the root 35:25, If you say you are that, how are you to look at it. 37:00 40:50. how thought or words becomes the sense of reality. How the mind sets up the sense of reality. What thought does to thought,to make it real.

[@universuliubirii7934]

That men who want's to go to Vietnam , in my opinion he search a purpose for his life, order

[@sarikas1352]

Life to live and let live...if u cannot give life to something you cannot take it, period

[@kooroshrostami27]

@@sarikas1352 You shouldn't take life period. Going to war because you can't handle being left alone with yourself and your misery? That's such a weak justification to kill.

[@Njoussama]

25:49 hahaha

[@merajhosseini3423]

So, I am neurotic, I leave you neurotic people right away!

[@patrickbinford590]

Shainberg held his own with those two gang members ganging up on him... and basically telling that psychiatrist that he just didn't get it. He'd say something and they would reflexively say "no, that's wrong.". LOl. ❤️

[@Herkimerdiamond]

Dr shainberg seems like a child in understand before dr Bohm and Krishnamurti and ruins the conversation all the time...

[@user-pz7od7vz2r]

After this dr shainberg carreer was destroyed

[@hmaacolney6408]

This doc shouldn't be there. Annoying af

[@jose-oq9hy]

39:45