Kia EV9 - 800 Volt Architecture

[@kein2009]

Brilliant use of what they already had to achive an additional funtion! Thanks for sharing Munro team.

[@Fochest0r]

"the biggest compliment I can give them is my anger because I did not come up with this" that's an awesome quote. I am going to steal this. And feel my anger that I did not come up with this quote, Paul!

[@AAkCN1]

Couldn‘t agree more

[@DougWedel-wj2jl]

This is a dual purpose for the motor. Very very cool!!

[@heinousanus9352]

4th purpose.

[@nurnware]

BTW, the Renault ZOE (from 2011) uses the same principle: The motor's windings are used as filter for the on-board charger (230V AC -> 400 DC). Renault calls it the "Chameleon Charger"

[@Alhussainba]

So, what's the catch? What are the cons of doing it this way?

[@FrozenHaxor]

@@Alhussainba Buzzing sounds, higher losses, loves to trip RCDs due to capacitance effects.

[@kulkrafts3143]

Obviously it isn’t same as Renault since Hyundai-Kia has the patent.

[@unoxunox4086]

... I think in the Zoe the Motor ist used as an Transformer, Not as an Filter. The grid did Not Like the noise which was emmited by Zoe while charging.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

@@Alhussainba Acoustic whine while charging, constraints on motor design ( can't use permanent magnets), additional safety hardware due to depdnence on motor insulation to protect against mains voltage.

[@owenturnbull6424]

Hi Paul, next time you dig into this topic would you mind including a overview schematic of the motor, its windings, the filter and the battery boost architecture.

[@battousaihimura]

Here you go: patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/1d/07/26/efe038fbd178ef/US20200361323A1-20201119-D00000.png

[@battousaihimura]

Invention: This patent proposes a new multi-input charging system and method for EVs that addresses the neutral point potential rise problem. Key Findings: The system incorporates a motor driving system that discharges the high voltage formed in two capacitors: A neutral point capacitor A DC capacitor How it Works: During Charging: When the EV is plugged in for charging, a high voltage can accumulate in the neutral point capacitor. Discharge Mechanism: The system activates the motor driving system. This motor acts as a generator, utilizing the stored energy in the neutral point capacitor and the DC capacitor. Energy Utilization: The generated electricity is then used for various purposes within the EV, effectively discharging the capacitors and preventing the neutral point potential from rising excessively.

[@32bits-of-a-bus59]

Not only they reuse the inductance of the motor but they also reuse the power transistors of the motor driver instead of having dedicated ones. It is somewhat similar to Renalut Zoe, which is also using the inductance of its motor to achieve 22 kW 3-phase AC charging (having a 3-phase connection is quite common in households in Europe). If my information is correct it should go back to EV-1 which also used its motor inductance and power transistors when it was in the charging mode.

[@TomSnyder--theJaz]

Well done, Paul. Good on you and Munro & Associates for giving credit where credit is due. Cheers

[@icare7151]

❤the Kia / Hyundai visual, mechanical and electrical engineering designs.

[@jake5993]

Every part needs to be evaluated to see if it can be multi purpose. Using the electric engine was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

[@Daddo22]

I love seeing how different manufacturers solve the same issue and comparing those solutions. This approach is brilliant and so is the Tesla's in Cybertruck that has basically 2 400 V packs connected in series (800 V), except for when charging on 400 V charger, when a couple of switches flip and they're connected in parallel (400 V), and I'd like to see a comparison of advantages and disadvantages of each solution.

[@Greg_MT]

Some of the information in this video is misleading. It is stated that chargers operate at 400V, that is only true of legacy hardware and lower power installations as well as Tesla Superchargers which only operate at up to ~500v. The boost converter (motor inverters) in the E-GMP platform does not allow for full charging power/speeds on 400v chargers. The boost converter does not increase charging speeds it is in the vehicle only to provide compatibility. The boost converter cannot provide over 200kW, more like 80-100kW. At modern (non-Tesla) charging stations rated to 350-400kW, the EV9 will receive full power at the native battery pack voltage without use of the boost converter. Most CCS high power stations are capable of delivering up to 1000v.

[@methajeenkawkam5583]

Totally agreed

[@Daddo22]

The fact is, that the vast majority of DC chargers in operation are 400 V "class" and more are still being installed. The caveat should've been included that MOST chargers operate at 400 V or some better wording, but I find this much less of an issue than if there was an error regarding some parameter of the subject of the video - the car and its 800 V system. Tesla Supercharger network has been built for Tesla cars that have 400 V battery packs, so there used to be no reason to provide much higher voltage than that, but since they started opening their Superchargers to other EV brands they started building also V4 superchargers that provide up to 1000 V DC. Now that they are also shipping Cybertrucks with 800 V battery pack, it's highly likely that they'll ramp up ratio of V4 Superchargers, but you'll see new 400 V Supercharger locations opening for quite a bit longer due to the length of permitting process and its inflexibility and also the production rate of V4 chargers has to ramp up so that V3 can be ramped down. Tesla has the most extensive, fastest expanding and the most reliable charging network, but almost all of it is 400 V, so if you have 800 V car, Tesla Supercharger (except V4) won't be able to charge your car as fast as some other providers, but it will be there for you (more locations and more stalls per location) and it will (reliably) charge your car. I'd love to see other charging providers step up their game.

[@markplott4820]

e-Gimp is ICE car based, its all you need to know. TESLA is 100% BEV from ground up. Tesla NEW model Y RWD LR is the MOST Efficient car on EARTH.

[@Greg_MT]

@@Daddo22 Good point about the number of 400v chargers out there and the fact they continue to be installed. The real error in the video is, this vehicle cannot charge at its peak power rate on a 400v charger. The boost conversion will not support it. The boost converter does not increase the charging speed or efficiency of the vehicle. Those are technical errors. I watch most videos from Munro, so I thought I would point out errors when I see them. I do not believe there are 400v class chargers that provide more than 150-200kW. I believe all 350kW chargers are 800-1000v class. A 400v charger would have to output 875 amps to reach 350kW, way beyond the CCS specification. Point is, even if the boost converter could output the peak charging power ~250kW, I do not believe there is a 400v class charger that supports it. I mostly agree with you on Tesla's Superchargers, but their vehicles do not all have 400v battery packs. The Cybertruck is 800v class and we now know it will charge faster on CCS than it will on the Supercharger due to amperage limits. V4 Superchargers are currently vaporware, the dispensers exist, but the actual charger cabinets that produce 1000v have yet to be seen at a public installation... and Tesla announced them over one year ago. Meanwhile, Tesla continues to install more V3s, hopefully those sites are forward compatible with V4 installs for future upgrades.

[@Aztasu]

@@markplott4820 hahahayou are not even trying anymore. Model Y is miles away from being efficient. Check out the Mercedes-Benz EQXX if you want to see true efficiency. Some of the tech will be used in the upcoming Mercedes-Benz CLA and C-Class EVs.

[@hmbro3236]

Omfg that fourth connection idea is genius. As a physicist I approve of that design lol.

[@stephen8623]

Too bad your education didn't provide you with a vocabulary not including the "f" word.

[@patreekotime4578]

​@@stephen8623 weird fing take.

[@yourcrazybear]

@@stephen8623 "Too bad your education didn't provide you with a vocabulary not including the "f" word." Do you have anything against the word "fourth?" And attacking his education on that ground is quite silly.

[@stephen8623]

@@yourcrazybear Your a real comedian...ha ha

[@stephen8623]

@@patreekotime4578 Yet another vocabulary challenged individual.

[@bradcavanagh3092]

All brilliant/ingenious inventions are completely obvious in hindsight.

[@cowboys1870]

The charge booster isn’t used unless the charger is ~400V (Tesla) AFAIK. Typical CCS chargers will supply the voltage the car needs, up to 920V.

[@l10industries]

There are a lot of lower power (50kw or less) DC chargers that only go up to 500 volts. Essentially right now if you want 800 volts, you have to have a way to boost these chargers, otherwise you're going to have a lot of people confused about why they're charging sessions are failing.

[@jamesdonnelly3280]

I have been eyeing this EV. I have a big family.

[@markplott4820]

model X is SAFER.

[@DimitarStanev]

both are massive 2t+ SUVs, safety is the same. I'd argue the Model X is an outdated design by now and the Kia may have an edge on new EuroNCAP tests.

[@anxiousappliance]

It's a stunner in person - and the interior is a nice place to be. KIA/Hyundai make solid EVs.

[@casualgamer1209]

@@anxiousappliance And they have really cooked over the past couple years- Ioniq 5 N is too good for itself, honestly, and (besides saftey modifications) they'll be running a couple STOCK at Pike's Peak. EV9 (and probably the Ioniq 9) looks compelling with all it has.

[@dduunnll]

​@@markplott4820😂

[@Lemon_Drums_USA]

That’s actually amazing

[@dfsdh432v9]

fast charging does not matter. they dont work most charging station will limit capacity including tesla supercharger. Never seeing them actually work.

[@Aztasu]

@@dfsdh432v9 It matters for everyone who does not drive an outdated Tesla. Around the world 350kW-480kW chargers are installed in big numbers. Many mid-size EVs or bigger have 800V+ architecture nowadays or will have that in the next 1-2 years.

[@dfsdh432v9]

​@@Aztasu lets say one station have 20 chargers. thats 10 Mega watts, and thats just one station. you need renew and rebuild electric grid system. but electric power companies are not going to spend billions to upgrade grids just supply car chargers.

[@Aztasu]

@@dfsdh432v9 Sure they will. First of all many many more EVs need charging in the future if we shift away from gas cars, second the shift to wide use of electricity not only happens with passengers cars but also trucks, heat pumps in homes, electric stoves, digitalization etc. Grids need and will be upgraded massively and 800V EVs are becoming the standard for mid-size EVs (one reason I would not buy a 45-50k EV today without 800V). Compact or sub-compact cars will keep 400V for now as their battery sizes aren't big enough for 800V to make a meaningful difference.

[@markplott4820]

NO, its Really not.

[@Fochest0r]

I remember Teslabjörn checking the CAN bus and discovering that in fact it has only a 650V architecture. So battery pack maximum voltage is around 650 V.

[@Aztasu]

650V native, it can draw more than that, something like 700V, but yes, they changed the battery structure a bit here. One would still consider this as an 800V system architecture, which is more like a range of 650V-900V

[@contra_plano]

They are Almost there

[@TomaszMajek]

Brilliant engineering solution! Thank you for sharing that kudos - need more of that instead of just criticism online SM. Appreciate your videos.

[@methajeenkawkam5583]

As per explanation , it doesn't make sense that 800V battery system but charge at 400V and then boost up again to 800V before charge to the battery instead of charge directly with 800V ( Lower current , lower power lose) - I think benefit of 800v battery is about reduce power lose espacially for long cable path ( from charger to pdu/battery) - Booster you mention is for old generation charger 400V and lower charger power.

[@INSOFTUSA]

That's correct. This video is all wrong from an engineering perspective. They are complementing Kia for doing something that's much more cumbersome, inefficient, limited in power and expensive than using a contractor as the Cybertruck uses to solve this same problem. First time I see a Monroe engineer totally confused about what is he talking about. Sad to see 😢

[@Somethingaboutthat]

This video is the exact opposite of what Monroe posted yesterday. I like that there are two takes on the same vehicle. I look forward to seeing Kia’s next gen ev design. It sounds like they’ve figured out how to package everything much nicer to give more room in the front. As it stands Hyundai and Kia have some really great ev’s that will only get better. I personally really like the look of this suv in blue. I didn’t really care for its looks when it was first unveiled but it’s really growing on me.

[@pasad335]

I assume you're talking about that "Sandy & Sue do a Car Review" which I found completely useless. Much rather they stick to the engineering. YT is already full of husband and wife car review teams.

[@Somethingaboutthat]

Yes that’s the video.

[@marcin_pisz]

I was under the impression the vehicle can only charge at 100kW on 400V charger, higher charging rates must use 800V Charger.

[@davidsuzukiispolpot]

Yes, I think the "expert" is confused.

[@FuRyZee]

True, but not a serious concern given it can maintain 100KW over most of its charge curve. You will find most other 400V EVs average a charge speed of under 100KW over your typical 10-80% charge. For example, a Tesla Model 3 LR averages 97KW over that type of charge. While it may start at 250KW at a 10% SOC, it drops below 100KW at around 50% SOC. An EV9 can maintain a 100KW charge speed all the way to 85% SOC before slowing. That ability to maintain such a high charge speed over most of their charge curve is the biggest advantage of 800V architectures.

[@marcin_pisz]

@@FuRyZee 800v only allows for maximum charge rate increase. 800v does nothing for the charging curve. Ev9 is more like 550v not really true 800v anyway.

[@FuRyZee]

@@marcin_pisz It does, it allows the battery to maintain a higher C rate before throttling, the higher voltage and lower current means lower resistance and losses. You are correct that the EV9 battery actually has a nominal voltage of 552V. Just like most '400V' EVs also have nominal voltages usually around 300-350V. Remember that lithium chemistries have a voltage range depending on SOC, nominal cell voltage at around 3.7V with a maximum voltage of around 4.2V when fully charged. I think Lucid is the only company I know of that actually has a correct nominal battery voltage of 800V, going up to 924V at full charge. EVKX has a great database on EV charge curves that I recommend looking at. The EV9 charge curve, if connected to a 800V charger, you will typically see a 191KW average charge rate over a 10-80% charge. It can maintain close to a 200KW charge speed all the way to 70% SOC before throttling. No 400V architectures are able to match that, not without risking heavy battery degradation.

[@jerrysweas6062]

When Kia starts installing NACS port in EV9 (target date Q4 of 2024), how long will it take to charge from 20 to 80% at the typical 150kW charger?

[@knuth.degaard2236]

Take a look at Porsche/Audi PPE 800 Volt system. They split the battery pack in two when charging at 400 volt. Clever engineering too...

[@gubbernl]

Exactly. Same as the Cybertruck. (Also on this channel from an interview with the lead engineers). Then no need of this. To me, this '800 volt' design, looks like 1.1 step forward, 1 step back. You know what I mean🙂

[@chetsaxton1526]

And the Silverado

[@markplott4820]

look at PORSCHE , they cant even SELL 1000 per month.

[@Aztasu]

@@markplott4820 wtf are you talking about. Porsche sales are booming. Nice try Tesla fanboy troll

[@casualgamer1209]

@@markplott4820 But they are very expensive (Base '24 Taycan starts at $100K), and Macan starts around $75K if I recal for Macan 4. PPE is a VERY advanced arcetecture, and I can't wait to see what else they make on it. Rather excited for the 718 EV.

[@Gonegonegone977]

Genius.

[@AdventuresInTheSky]

Needs that NACS!

[@danneil8778]

another winner. thanks, Paul

[@ВладимирКозлов-д8щ]

Thanks. Super!

[@supernumex]

Awesome video!!

[@MunroLive]

Thanks!

[@elwing021]

Really nice video, thanks for sharing, and yeah definitely Kudos to Kia/Hyundai.

[@MunroLive]

Thanks for watching!

[@kulkrafts3143]

@@MunroLiveMuch better technical video than rambling by old guy and old woman about buttons. Some diagram to show how it works different than other similar design would have been outstanding.

[@billybobbob3003]

@@MunroLive lol i see alot of nonsensical illogical common sense lacking engineering on a daily basis.

[@scottv5131]

Adaptto eBike controllers have been doing this since 2014. Brilliant engineering! It's cool to see eBike technology used in the auto industry.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Will it actually do 350kW at 400V ? I've not seen a spec for 400V charge rate, but seems unlikely, and the 500A limit of CCS would limit it to around 200kW anyway

[@bruinlane]

Kia states "up to 210kW"

[@FrozenHaxor]

350kW sounds extremely implausible when most are struggling to achieve 200 at this point.

[@Aztasu]

A 350kW charger just means that it is an 800V charger. Since the EV9 uses a higher system Volts architecture than 400V you have to go to an 800V charger, though there are some tricks to boost 400V charging with an 800V EV. That is what he was talking about. It uses a booster to boost up 400V charging inputs to make it work with its 800V system. As you said normal 500A 400V chargers are limited to around 200kW, they can also go slightly above that, but even with a 400V booster you would not get close that speed. For the "full" 210-215kW the EV9 demands you still need the 800V charger. The engineering behind this booster is clever tho I think that is what he meant. Fun fact: What is meant with an 800V architecture nowadays is more like a range of 600V-900V. The bigger battery pack of the EV9 is actually slightly limited in its voltage architecture compared to the smaller 77.5KWh and the new 84kWh batteries (used in Ioniq 5N) used in other E-GMP platform EVs. The smaller batteries which are actually 750V-800V and can charge with 240KW-245kW. They rearranged and changed the amount of cells connected in row in this this 100kWh battery of the EV9 and in the end it is more like a 600V-650V architecture. That's why the bigger battery charges slightly slower than the smaller batteries with a max of 210-215kW charging power. Why did they do that? Maybe to provide extra longevity due to a stress-free C-Charge rate and also to provide a more flat charging curve which makes quite a bit of sense for a utility 3-row family SUV.

[@johnnodge4327]

​@@Aztasu Definitely seen my Ioniq 5 charge at 240kW, so what you say makes perfect sense.

[@1944chevytruck]

thanks!

[@highlanderapparel]

Very informative podcast, the Highlander.😊😊

[@contra_plano]

Why American still do not use SI units?

[@drunk_astronomy]

give it up to Kia. That’s a brilliant idea. Makes total sense. The motor just sits there and doesn’t do anything when you’re charging.

[@Starship007]

The industry always advertises fast charging but rare to find 350kw DC fast chargers. Most public DC fast chargers are 100kw. Tesla DC fast chargers(superchargers) are 130-250kw). Tesla msrp helps fund charging stations. Competition uses taxpayers or other private companies. Most public stations are only level 2 not level 3. All Tesla stations are level 3.

[@jonrico7937]

Great video and great presenter!!!

[@timw1971]

Brilliant! I'd love to see a schematic of the shoe-box against Kia/Hyundai's motor coil approach.

[@johnpoldo8817]

Me too. Using the inductance of motor to produce a filter is very creative. I expect there’s a large capacitor too. Of course, all charging is while stopped. I assume the motor doesn’t rotate because DC and not 3-phase AC power is going through motor windings.

[@Renvoxan]

Yeah, this 4th connection in the motor that acts as a filter is a brilliant solution, kudos to Hyundai/KIA engineers. 🫡🫡🫡

[@fredderf6491]

Renault also used the motor windings for charging on the Renault Zoe 10 years ago, albeit on the ac - dc converter on a 400V battery system so the idea is not new or unique

[@michahaas9148]

Kia and Hyundai are using TRIZ to come up with such great ideas.

[@AAkCN1]

Awesome

[@madsdgdhg]

It's a GT-Line. The real GT is still to come.

[@johnpoldo8817]

Paul, great presentation, but most DC Fast Chargers (except Tesla) have an 800-900 V architecture. Why can’t these directly power the EV’s 800V battery charger? I see no need for a boost. Is it because the semiconductors needed at this high voltage & current are too expensive? I’d love to see the circuit for the 4th wire filter using motor inductance.

[@PaulVanchugov]

watching on x1.5 speed, feels like x1. Nice car for sure!

[@djemcee]

Funny you say. I watch all Monroe videos at 1.75x. Otherwise, I would either fall asleep or be yelling "come on, spit it out"

[@jghall00]

@@djemcee That's not just Monroe videos. KZbin monetizes based on commercials, so you creators need a certain length to allow for commercial breaks. I watch all videos at 1.75 or 2.0x, depending on how fast the presenter speaks and whether they have my undivided attention. Same with podcasts.

[@jeffreybloom]

Does using the motor as the filter limit the regen power? I know Porsche has very high regen capability in the new Taycan. Presumably they have a separate filter? Can it filter and regen at the same time?

[@dhineshkd8526]

4th connection 🤯

[@patrickmckowen2999]

👍 Maybe get those engineers to build a fusion reactor 🤣

[@shazam6274]

Corrections*: NO "FILTER" is involved: the 400V to ~800V Boost Converter re-uses the Inductance of the motor windings instead of a separate dedicated Inductor! Inductors store energy from pulsed magnetic fields, which is how you can step-up or "Boost" a lower voltage to a higher one. A "filter" removes stuff, like noise and spike voltage peaks. Not the same as a Transformer either, which uses magnetic coupling to induce a higher voltage to a secondary with more (or less) winding turns to a higher (or lower) Voltage. * Engineering and Physics require accurate and precise thinking and language, which unfortunately is not in evidence in this review. Not exactly a great "optics" for an Engineering Consulting outfit.

[@supernumex]

The inductor and capacitor of DCDC converters in high voltage applications are often referred to as "filter" components. They are technically L-C low pass filters, but you don't usually think of them that way especially for low voltage DCDC. They are referred to as filters in higher voltage applications because they're a lot bigger and often separated from the control circuitry. The inductors and capacitors are often the size of a coke can.

[@shazam6274]

@@supernumex There is a significant functional difference between "L-C Filters", which indeed filter noise and smooth voltage irregularities, and a Boost Inductor, which has a rectifier function* between the inductor and any output filtering / storage capacitors. The voltage is immaterial. Search for "Boost Converter Schematic" and "Buck Converter Schematic" to clearly see how differently the inductor is used. * Most BEVs use either a rectifier or more likely an "active synchronous switch" consisting of a transistor (Bipolar, IGBT or FET {GaN or SiC}.

[@shazam6274]

@@supernumex There is a vast difference between a L-C low pass filter and a Boost Inductor switching supply. Regardless of the operating voltage, they operate quite differently for different purposes. It is disconcerting that neither the presenter or you know how they operate, please look up "switching regulators". This is like conflating an ICE engine's flywheel and pistons; one smooths vibrations, the other provides bursts of power.

[@TommySmith-or7nn]

@@shazam6274 @supernumex is correct. Inductor and capacitor in dcdc converters are often referred to as filters in industry.

[@atihigfatihigf6597]

@@shazam6274 The inductor and capacitor in a boost converter are often called L-C filters.

[@stevebakker6884]

Great video. It would also be helpful to know a) Why a filter is needed. I assumed they were getting to 800v via a DC-DC converter. Does that process require a filter? or is the DC being converted to AC, then stepped up, and then being rectified to DC again, which of course requires filtering the choppy current as a result of that process? And b) how exactly is that extra winding performing the filtering?

[@johnpoldo8817]

I want to know too. Usually these filters also need a capacitor. But do they use the battery as a capacitor.

[@NirreFirre]

I'm not an EE but a systems engineer but isn't a filter (high/low pass) mostly a combination of 1..n inductors and 1..n capacitors? Inductors are the expensive and heavy part so using the windings in the motor in "reverse", as a transformer, allow them to get that part of a step up converter sourced. Looking at a medium voltage (100-240V) one for my Vitamix US sold blender in my Swedish (240V) kitchen, that thing is heavy and 80%+ of its weight, and probably it's cost, is that transformer

[@jimmiemac9000]

@@NirreFirre That's an interesting idea about using the motor windings to step voltage up or down. But. I am recalling that Tesla does it in the inverter. It was actually explained to me by an EE that both the inversion of the DC to AC (to spin the motor), is the same circuit that converts the incoming AC from regen activity into DC to charge the battery. I believe the voltage step and step down occurs ine that box as well.

[@eddiegardner8232]

How about showing the basic schematic for their boost converter. Presumably the motor is just part of an LC filter, or is it a "ringing choke" kind of booster instead of using a higher-frequency toroidal transformer with MOSFET or IGBT drivers and the motor is just the inductor in the filter. Whichever it is, reusing the motor as a large inductor is clever design, but the charging infrastructure needs to move to 800-1000 volt architecture to reduce the current in the cables, in the next generation of chargers, even if it is split within the car to charge two 400 volt "half battery" packs to drive existing traction motors.

[@kjlovescoffee]

Do Hyundai employ the same strategy for their 800V cars? I seem to remember Munro did a review of the Ioniq 5 long ago, so I'm surprised this hasn't come up before.

[@momentum2564]

10-80% in 22 min

[@billthompson9482]

Why can't they split the battery in two half's? When charging, charge each battery to a parallel connection at 400 volts then when done charging change the contacts to series to make 800 volts.

[@slavko321]

I think the cybertruck does this.

[@grainfield77]

​@@slavko321 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l52noKuGqr2FfLM&si=jG7M8LiJQw1H9_DT

[@ulwur]

And bmw of i recall correctly.

[@FrozenHaxor]

Some do that already

[@MarsOzzie]

Cyber truck does this

[@Starship007]

Competition causes new innovation. 40% of car owners no garages. We need more charging stations at least 130kw.

[@stevebakker6884]

Btw the Cybertruck also has an 800v architecture.

[@chrisnewman7281]

why is there such an preoccupation in some quarters for a family car/ ev to have the acceleration of a V8?

[@RobertKohut]

800 volts, 350,000 watts. Can't think of a single thing that could go wrong.... 🙂

[@pgrts]

I suppose the motor is connected in Y versus normal delta, using the zeropiont as the 4th connector. Also a way to get down the current with a higher voltage.

[@diggleda2952]

Why do they use a boost converter when they could disconnect the battery into two halves electrically to get two 400v batteries and just charge them in parallel

[@RickyLourenco]

most engineers like to creat problems to come up with solutions. imagine how boring this episode would be if he just said the banks where connected parallel for charging and series to drive. i’m sure a voltage converter to run the hvac would cost less that one for the entire battery.

[@supernumex]

@@RickyLourenco The high voltage contactors to switch between series and parallel cost money. The safety interlocks to prevent shoot-through also cost money and engineering time. Not to mention cost and complexity of the pre-charge circuits to equalize voltages before connecting the packs in parallel.

[@RickyLourenco]

you have no idea how a contactor and interlock work. the two can be the same. again adding more parts.

[@supernumex]

​@@RickyLourenco fair enough, you can combine contactor and a mechanical interlock like in the HV switch of the cybertruck. This is an extra mechanical part to fail. The pre-charge/pack voltage equalization circuitry before connecting in parallel still needs to be engineered and costs money and space.

[@davidsuzukiispolpot]

Because you choose either to have a battery pack that can switch as you described with the high voltage connections or you add a boost converter as Kia did. They decided their solution as superior for their tradeoffs. Putting in the switches to convert the pack between 800v and 400meanx those switches must run at full current so they are not free.

[@alanw5812]

I know hit the bottom battery cover need to replace the battery, so how much to do it ?🤑

[@Starship007]

Kia/Hyundai really producing many great EV’s. Where are the Big 3? They also many hybrids. Where are the Big 3 with hybrids? South Korea has its own battery factories. USA not many battery factories

[@kanzzon]

Someone in kia did their homework

[@chrisiasiello4628]

Is there something wrong with the audio sample rate or something? His voice sounds so wobbly.

[@MunroLive]

Nope

[@JarmelSingsKaraoke]

👏👏

[@joan38]

I wonder why they used a booster as opposed to splitting the pack into 2 400V packs

[@MrGMawson2438]

Cheers its a great family car would be good for a taxi

[@chriss2295]

Paul reminds me of the “good” engineers I’ve worked with. Him Geeking out of the technology makes me laugh.

[@justinmallaiz4549]

It would have be nice (especially considering this channel attracts the engineering minded) if you backed up the fastest charging with specs. How many miles added 20 to 80% ? Miles per hour charging? The charging curve? 20-25minutes seems pretty close to Teslas 400 volt.

[@filippxx]

Indeed 😳😬 cell voltage on existing chemistry is the limit, not the fact that you have higher voltage

[@gedfi]

The engineering minded know that cars charge kWh, not miles. There is no "miles per hour charging", it's just a guesstimate.

[@justinmallaiz4549]

@@gedfi: A thoughtful engineer doesn’t care how many kWh an inefficient vehicle with large battery can draw. What matters is the time needed charging to get home or the next destination. What matters is how many miles of range are added in a given amount of time. mph charging curve. A highly efficient vehicle doesn’t require a large kWh like an inefficient vehicle

[@plourdefrederic869]

Does anybody have the patent number or web link to it?

[@tonep3168]

Are there any downsides to making the motor work this way?

[@markplott4820]

EXPENSIVE , cannot SCALE.

[@shadowmancer7040]

Model x isn't an suv?

[@MrGMawson2438]

Evening guys

[@mullermeister]

The EV9 isn't really 800 volts in the large battery version tho.

[@Aztasu]

True, one would still consider this an 800V system architecture, which is more like a range of 650V-900V

[@markplott4820]

EV9 is not really a Competitor.

[@wtmayhew]

Using motor inductance as a filter choke isn’t exactly a new idea, so apparently there is something specific to Hyundai/Kia’s use of motor inductance which makes it patentable. Using freely available inductance for filter chokes goes back to at least the 1920s where loudspeakers sometimes had DC windings to provide the field, a time when powerful rare earth permanent magnets didn’t exist. Radios used the speaker DC winding as the B+ power supply filter choke.

[@wrefk]

Horse power is a goofy spec to reference for an ev. Don't bother with the conversion, just use the kw rating of motor instead

[@champipy]

Why not go straight to 5000 Volts architecture?

[@GreenDriveIndia]

Voltage leaks .. you will have to maintain a safe distance if that voltage is running in 5k-10k range. More the voltage more the lethal

[@Y2Kvids]

each cell gets its own charger. Have 1000 Usb C ports , 5V x 1000= 5000V

[@GreenDriveIndia]

@@Y2Kvids nice idea

[@GoGreenAutos]

Certainly not the first. The Renault Zoe has been doing this since 2012.

[@feedbackzaloop]

Soooo in ICE terms, they fill up the tank through common rail, if not the injectors

[@MarsOzzie]

Cyber truck splits the battery in 2 to charge at 400v. Saves them charging at 800v. Why you didn't mention this?

[@manitobasky]

Because changing at 800v is preferable, charging at 400v limits charging speeds due to current limitations of the cables.

[@wdekelund]

0-60 on a rolling start wtf

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Yep, my Kia stinkdiesel 2l turbo can do rolling start to 60 in around 2.5seconds, km/h of course. Still enough to spin the wheels so going EV for me is future music...

[@Foersom_]

@wdekerlund, indeed. They measure X to 97 km/h with generous timing. It is BS measurement.

[@georgepelton5645]

Hyundai is not the first to use the motor windings to eliminate charger components. AC Propulsion had patented "reductive charging," using the motor windings as a filter for the on-vehicle charger (240 VAC single phase to 400 VDC). AC Propulsion used this for their T-zero cars, and BMW used it for their original Mini-E that used AC Propulsion motors and inverter-chargers. Tesla licensed the patent from AC Propulsion for the first Roadsters, but stopped using it in the later versions of the Roadster. Hyundai's use is a bit different, since they use the windings for the 400 VDC to 800 VDC boost converter instead of the on-vehicle charger, worthy of a new patent for Hyundai.

[@drury2d8]

76 kWh battery pack @ $100/KWh. So why $70,000 pricing? Plastics, metal and some PCBs?

[@TheAegisClaw]

It's 99.8kWh not 76.

[@switzerland3696]

A boost converter makes no sense in that application, you just switch the pack to 400V when charging. ie parallel vs series.

[@GruffSillyGoat]

Each approach has different trade offs. - A boost circuit approach is more complex but lower cost as it re-uses existing components for the boost circuit, offers integration with the inverter management with softwre based flexible control. Plus reuses the existing 800v battery management / charge system. Longer to design and develop as using a LV (

[@NextGenEvs]

Fastest charging on the market is a stretch…

[@Aztasu]

Well the E-GMP platform in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and KIA EV6 has a 10-80% charging time of 18-19min since 2021. In western markets there is not much out there which charges faster, only the recently updated Porsche Taycan. This KIA EV9 charges slower tho, they slightly changed the battery structure in this vehicle. The chinese market is a whole different story.

[@markplott4820]

my Tesla charges @ 1000 mph . 250+ miles in 15 minutes.

[@Aztasu]

@@markplott4820 lol 1000mph nice try Tesla troll. Try a little harder next time

[@jasonsaber8287]

I agree 800 volt system is the future for fast charging, however since most EVs r charged at home, this is not too big a deal. U never mention that the Tesla model X is in the same price range of $79k. U can’t compare the 7 seat X to this ask Sandy as he couldn’t get out of the 3rd row. 100KW battery well under 300 miles goes to show u how inefficient that battery system really is. Lol. If Munro is only going on 800 volt great, but evaluate the entire battery system and its efficiency. IMHO

[@gbinman]

You obviously haven't done a road trip. The existing infrastructure doesn't exist to provide the experience that you describe.

[@TheSteinbitt]

The car is more like 650 volts, and the booster can’t run 350kw, I only get 100kw when charging on 400v chargers, and upwards of 250kw on 800v chargers.

[@rhettoracle9679]

So the motor has double the electrical wear and tear because all electricity to and from the battery goes through it. Wouldn't that degrade the motor windings twice as fast? Isn't the pure sine wave converter for charging cheaper to replace than the motor? This design sounds cheaper to manufacture, but more expensive to own in the long term. Peace

[@owenturnbull6424]

What wear and tear? These are just electrons and magnetic fields moving backwards and forwards. So long as you are not trying to put in too much power into the copper windings then you should be ok. Also the 4th winding (boost winding/filter) will only be used during charging IMHO.

[@robert65755]

I'm currently looking at buying an EV9 and was thinking the same thing about the rear motor. Also, in May of this year, when the EV9 is built in Georgia, will they change the charging components when they start using the J1772 connector? By the way, the kia EV9 seems to have a great charging curve.

[@BillyLapTop]

Fatigue?

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Maybe heat it up and that can lead to issues for desert drivers. Cruise Death Valley after charging and find some flames due to a faulty sensor?

[@markplott4820]

MUNRO - its all Theoretical . the issues is the very CRAPPY CCS charging infrastructure in the USA.

[@Aztasu]

the US is not the center of electric automobile innovations or sales. CCS infrastructure works great around the world

[@GruffSillyGoat]

@@Aztasu - the OP probably meant CCS1 as used in some places vs CCS2 that offers higher capacity charging that is the standard in many other parts of the world.

[@philtrubey7480]

Or you could just split the pack into two 400V segments and combine them when charging at 800V. There are other cheap solutions.

[@RickyLourenco]

someone needs to explain series vs parallel and how that can be used to change voltage. no need for boost converters. when it comes to charging, the limiting factor is the cell, not the voltage of the battery. stop adding more parts that can fail.

[@andders2477]

The fastest charging with 210 kW ? tjek Porsche and the Chinese they are up >500 kW and goes 10-80% in 12 min.

[@kbone369]

Idk but splitting the pack voltage like in the cybertruck seems like a better engineering solution.

[@epcreative1983]

First! 💪

[@MunroLive]

🏆

[@zodiacfml]

I don't like mentioning 800V as a way to speed up charging considering this an engineering channel. Tesla's DC charging at 400V is absurdly powerful that it is detrimental to battery cells. 800V true value is to reduce wiring cable sizes. I am also not sure if Hyundai's brilliant idea is brilliant at all considering that if you split an 800v battery into 2pcs 400v or 4pcs of 200V through physical electrical links then the car be compatible on 400v/800v DC chargers like the Cybertruck.

[@Aztasu]

No, sorry, that is not true. 800V true value comes from speeding up charging times. Around 75-85kWh total battery capacity is where the switch to 800V needs to happen if you still want to charge "bigger" batteries somewhat fast (C-charge rate of 3C or higher). A normal 400V charger at 500A-525A can only deliver 200kW-210kW. At 3C charge rate a battery with 75kWh capacity needs 225kW to charge at 3C. A Tesla charger can output 250kW-255kW at 400V because they use higher Amps. However even here a 85kWh battery is right at the edge of getting full power. A 100kWh battery would already need 300kW at just 3C. That is the reason why the Cybertruck needs 800V for its 130kWh total battery size. And 100kW is becoming the norm as the biggest battery option for even mid-sized premium EVs nowadays. The switch to 800V also needs to happen if you want to push for even faster charging times in the realm of 15min-12min from 10-80%, which translate to around 4C and 5C peak charge rate of the battery (charging curve is also important). A smaller 75kWh battery also already needs 300kW at just 4C just like the 100kWh battery needs at 3C. At 5C the 75kWh battery would draw 375kW from the charger. And a 100kWh battery needs 400kW at 4C and 500kW at 5C. Without 800V (and higher) that would not be possible (you can't just push Amps up instead as Amps increase resistance/heat and therefore charging losses more than higher VOlts do) Even Tesla will slowly shift to 800V chargers and models. Teslas entire lineup is outdated at this point tho and they do not really have an incentive to speed up the process of deploying 800V chargers at which the competition can charge must faster already. Every mid-sized premium EV without 800V is outdated and not future-proof and should not be bought, the Tesla Model Y LR or Model 3 LR come to mind here.

[@zodiacfml]

​@@Aztasu You may have a point on the 120kwh Cybertruck but Tesla's other cars weren't upgraded to 800V because their chargers are more than powerful enough. Prior Cybertruck, Elon said in one tweet that 800V is not required for their cars. If you look into data sheet of reputable brand of 2170 cell, the maximum charging rate is only 0.7C or around 3amps. Tesla DC max charging rate exceeds this charging C rate multiple times. In the real world, DC charging curve rate drops rapidly after just a few minutes and that high power charger is rendered less useful very quickly.

[@markplott4820]

MUNRO - very FEW oems make their own motors. most LEGACY buy BORG-Warner or MAGNA. they wont do 800v .

[@Aztasu]

you are clueless and just spamming nonsense. Pro tip, google APP550 motor by Volkswagen or the eATS2.0 and Yasa axial flux motor by Mercedes-Benz.

[@edpingol]

"Ahhhh..." "Uhmmmm..." You got this... we love data. Keep going.

[@MunroLive]

We are engineers, not public speakers. Plus are videos aren't scripted.

[@feedbackzaloop]

@@MunroLive Must say Paul is a very good speaker for an engineer and in general. Coming from perspective of absolutely not comprehending Sandy anymore for last year or so.

[@djemcee]

It's better than Sandy's coughing up hairballs all through the videos. And more interesting to watch thank 2 senior citizens who can't set the time on thier microwave go over how they liked the new high tech car.

[@dougbaskins9380]

I find this very hard to believe. The cybertruck method is probably the most likely way to charge a 800 Volt battery with 400 volts (at 350KWatts). This guy is an insult to the integrity of Munro. I am very disappointed

[@Aztasu]

You are very clueless, you should be disappointed about that

[@PaulTurnbull-EMfield]

GM's Hummer used the method of splitting the battery a couple years before Tesla, but yes, that is a good approach. It has a few challenges with the failure modes of the high current contactors that the Kia approach handles differently. I never said that other methods are bad. I only wanted to highlight the fact that the Hyundai/Kia method is clever and cost effective.

[@dougbaskins9380]

I suspect the Kia approach results in a slow charge. If it were fast and economical, then I think all superchargers would use that method. Right now a 250-350 Watt charger cost more than a car.

[@markplott4820]

TESLA model X Plaid is the SAFEST & Worlds FASTEST SUV on Earth. over 1200+ HP 3 - Plaid motors . leaves the Trailhawk in the DUST.

[@markplott4820]

KIA EV9 is too HEAVY, too slow , its too OUTDATED and lacks FSD.

[@Aztasu]

lol you are clueless

[@dolph9913]

KIA & Hyundai Sucks.

[@alanmay7929]

you even more and soooooo bad its just funny.

[@brunoheggli2888]

Game over for Tesla!

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Peter Schreyer ex Volkswagen put Kia onto the map. James Watt may have added valves but Otto Maybach and Rudolf Diesel gave us more technology!

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

@@brunoheggli2888 Xi would quote: Game over for Joe........