I interviewed an incel and looksmaxxer...and got interviewed right back.

[@KidologyCO]

Please be respectful in the comments. If you've got any shade, direct it at me and not Hiraeth. Thank you in advance. Comment away!

[@dbdrsco-worker8534]

It's over for respectfulcels

[@fleetadmiralsidiqi1941]

You don't have to do these videos. Most women don't want to touch this topic with a 20 ft pole and society doesn't force them to. Respect to you for thinking for yourself 🫡

[@fury5500]

Nobody can own hiraeth more than himself. Imagine destroying your mental health just because of sex.

[@etdonc3572]

kidology, you don't seem to realise that often, women do not even give us the opportunity to show our "personality", you mentionned dating apps as if it wasn't a big deal, but most people meet on dating apps nowadays, that's a big deal. In a lot of other place, you can't even seduce a woman anymore without being at risk of being accused of harasment. You can't do it at work, you can't do it on the street...

[@hover2go]

@@fleetadmiralsidiqi1941 She kind of does tho, not individually but as part of the larger progressive movement. There are so many lost boys like this guest who need a path in life and the only group supplying one are Fresh and Fit, Andrew Tate, and the like. We need more content creators reaching out like this to form a bigger picture, a progressive alternative to the regressive right wing pipeline. So, uh, huge appreciation for this convo I guess :p

[@skyhigh_attitude]

The pressure men collectively put on each other about having to date/sleep with a lot of women is truly depressing. This dude is literally eighteen, I can't even consider him an adult, yet he talks like he's a fifty year old virgin.

[@JaydenConnors]

Why do you guys brush off mens natural sexual drive as peer pressure? Men are naturally more hornier than women due to loads of testosterone, deal with it.

[@maryklw]

Could be a result of spending way too much time online during his teen years commenting on forums and spending not enough time with his peers and others in person.

[@robertkalinic335]

You are totally wrong, it's your social circle and beyond. You get reminded by people regardless of their age and sex about having girlfriend all the time to the point of being creepy even though they don't mean it negatively but like socially acceptable conversation starter.

[@robertkalinic335]

I would even say it's other way around, it's the more progressive people who spend way more time online that get surprised how shitty normal people around them can be. For example, I give my brother tiny hair pin that blends so he stops stabbing his eye with hair all the time and when his co-workers spot it they start talking homophobic.

[@milt0n290]

Absolutely not lol. The only pressure we get is seeing everyone else in stable relationships and thinking something is wrong with us . I say the main reason is ghosting. We never get closure and assume the worst trying to figure out what’s wrong with us. Up until recently I thought I was being too gentle with women, I won’t even talk dirty or be aggressive with a woman because I have a complex with be terrified of coming across threatening considering I’m larger than 98% of men growing up in combat sports and black so I go out of my way to be as non threatening and overly friendly as possible. I’ve always been a relatively attractive guy but I don’t have the confidence to believe it. I’m tall, athletic, larger than normal “equipment”, light skinned with clear skinned, light blue eyes with long eyelashes and long pretty hair. I’ve met women and out of shock they blurt out that I’m hot. I even occasionally get hit on by men(I don’t get mad or anything, I’ve even been flattered). I’m 29 and have had 40+ sexual partners with 20+ repeat visitors and I still have confidence issues. Half of the time I don’t even want sex but I feel pressured into it because I don’t want them to think something is wrong with me. I get 20% of matches on tinder and like 50% on bumble (I didn’t know that was a good rate at the time) but I’m super picky and haven’t used it in 3 years. The longest relationships I’ve had are a 2yr and 1 year both on and off with no real explanation. I remember the one girl who told me anything saying I was “too pure” like wtf? Im not even religious, I’m no saint and I’m not judgy at all (I’m pretty transparent about not judging people). I think men are just trying to figure out why women aren’t interested and are throwing things at the wall. My only takeaway has been I am too poor so I’m back in school to try to change that because I know everyone is struggling and nobody wants to be with a partner and live a life of poverty and that’s totally understandable imo. Edit: I was recruited by Disney and a modeling agency in high school but didn’t go because I thought they were scams 😂😂😂 I was like… me? Gtfoh lol

[@timeabg]

The way you converse with people who hold vastly differing worldviews is so aspirational to me. I believe this is how we can come together and learn to navigate through society with less frustration. Thank you for uploading and being on youtube.

[@heavenlyarianator6335]

She is really good at conversation

[@clairehann2681]

I think the term you're looking for is "inspiring." aspirational has a different meaning

[@timeabg]

@@clairehann2681 waaaait, I thought it could be used for qualities other than prestige and material success?? I certainly didn’t mean inspirational, more so looking at this particular skill of hers as something everyone, including myself, should aim to cultivate.

[@7Bobby7]

I find it hard to do something like kid, to me there are few irrefutable facts that I won't compromise on and if you think those facts are opinion then we have no reason to engage. Luckily I'm not in a debate club or KZbin space that demands that.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

The double XX on lookmaxxing makes it sound like a makeup line.

[@SpiritualAttitudeSage]

You just fed that idea to the algorithm

[@civilizationkills3138]

Or a terf Twitter handle

[@jbark678]

You may have just stumbled on a small goldmine

[@noimnotakpoppfpsheacy2526]

XX should stand for their XX chromosomes 🤣

[@RodaRora]

''maybe he's born with it...maybe it's lookmaxxing''

[@ponny2948]

Fact is that cold approach is really scary for a lot women, we dont know if we turn them down if they’re going to become angry and honestly we dont know anything about you to trust you enough to say yes. Any time a guy cold approaches im immediately wary of what he wants from me

[@apostate6849]

irrational fear

[@makailacarter523]

@@apostate6849 In 2021 out of 4,970 female homicide vitcims, 34% of these were killed by an intimate partner. If you see three lions coming your way and your told only one will bite you would you still stay on that path??

[@xaviercopeland2789]

@@makailacarter523 cold approaches are intimate partners? Your drama meant doesn’t make sense.

[@universal5313]

@@apostate6849 its not irrational when men make up more than 70% of the crime rate

[@redgrave4492]

​@@apostate6849 Being cautious isn't irrational.

[@rufiohaspan]

For someone’s that’s 18 he talks like he’s been trying to date for decades 😮

[@samuri2011]

🤣😅🤣😅🤣 omg so accurate

[@dualshock3]

..thats the f*cking problem.. Goes to show you how much these types of men have to try their hardest and still get nothing.. it like playing life on ultra hard mode

[@JoshuaGraham8383]

The most common age in which you date and experience these things is on your teens and early twenties, so of course loads of men are desperate because time's ticking and it's not coming back

[@porto1st]

@@JoshuaGraham8383 I’d say time is ticking faster for women considering their beauty tends to fade harder with age than in men ..

[@dominicmoreno4662]

Train the mainstream to my voice like puppies enjoy bones live in a plexiglass castle and throw toy stones

[@thewatcheronthewalls4809]

I really hate the “women aren’t visual creatures” argument. It makes it sound like they aren’t attracted to hot guys, or forearms and jawlines even though they clearly are. And it also makes men sound like vapid, shallow animals.

[@lokylong28]

While I think it is undeniable that looks play an important role in a person's attractiveness, I think the statement could've been worded better as "women aren't primarily visual creatures". For example I do appreciate all these features you've mentioned, however I've also fallen in love with people who have conventionally unattractive physical traits such as a big belly, balding head, severe acne, short height, etc. On the other hand, I am attracted to men with muscular or athletic build, and all the men I've shared a relationship with do have these traits, but I'm inclined to believe it's because I'm a gym goer myself and I prefer a partner who also share the same passion for working out and lifting hard. I also remember a time before I fell in love with working out, my dating preference was very different including physical looks, I liked tall, skinny guys who are very much like the Asian teen drama male leads I used to have a crush on. But nothing really fruitful came from that because I haven't matured and developed a mindset that's useful for finding a person to form a great connection with. Regardless, I am a firm believer that no matter how our natural looks might be deemed undesirable in public or conventional consensus, as long as we're trying our best to take care of our mind and body, we will always find a person that will cherish us and also to be cherished by us. And from my own experience that goes beyond looks. In a setting such as a real relationship, we will need to cooperate and collaborate with our partners, and we will most probably be focusing on day-to-day life, conflicts and meaningful goals in life, etc.

[@aabracadavra]

Similarly, I think we should stop saying that men are visual creatures, since clearly judging by the way they fail to spot details and changes in women's physical appearance (i.e. new haircut, hair dye, and other subtle details like that), the way they don't care about interior design which for a visual person would be very important, the way they don't appreciate beauty around them that isn't s*xual, like women do, so on, dispels that narrative. Ironically, these are all things that women are incredibly good at and value. They can spot differences in hues of colors better than men, they are better at identifying subtle visual changes, they are much more interested in fashion and interior design, the list goes on. The only instances where men bring up the "men are visual creatures" argument is when they try to justify the objectification of women. So really, the correct term would be "shallow", not visual.

[@WhoBlah21]

@@aabracadavraho are these men you’re running into? I’m genuinely curious. Just because a man didn’t point out a difference in someone’s appearance doesn’t mean they didn’t spot it. Men don’t care about interior design? Have you never met a man with a hobby? Not every dudes home is the “this is how men really be living” meme. Literally everyone decorates their living spaces. Men don’t appreciate the beauty around them? Jesus Christ, you’re acting as if the average woman is a beatnik who spends every waking hour pontificating about the abstract and inner beauties of the world. The most significant artists and art movements in the world were dominated by men. Architectural and exterior designs are dominated by men. Spotting difference in hue isn’t as impressive as you think it is, especially when a huge portion of color theory is about the relativity of color. I’m not trying to dunk on women, but holy shit enough with the anti-male rhetoric.

[@Dr3Mc3Ninja]

It is scientifically accurate. Men prefer to watch pwarn, women prefer to read erotica. Finding a man physically attractive is not enough for me to want them, say the wrong thing, be boring, have bad humour and it's an immediate turn off. Plenty of male celebrities are not obviously attractive, but you see them play a cool character and suddenly they're a 10/10 in the looks department whilst also looking nothing like the other male celebrities you find physically attractive. I don't personally know women who would follow male models online, whilst I know men can follow a plethora of IG thots, who have no personality, no humour, no talent, but they'll still want to smash them. Boys and men are the reason Twitch is ruined by thots. Plenty of these women have objectively awful personalities, yet they make thousands because guys will put up with their antics. Lots of women like guys who can be slightly dick-ish, but blatantly vindictive, manipulative men are not attractive.

[@Game5WB]

​@@aabracadavra who hurt u

[@daviddanielsson3643]

Hiraeth, as a straight man I can say this: You have a nice voice, very pleasant to listen to and you seem intelligent and willing to inquire and listen. I'm 30+ now, but when I was 18 I was insecure and depressed about never having had a girlfriend and also being a virgin. Loneliness was a huge problem for me. I was sad, I was angry, shy and didn't have the resources that you have. Taking care of your looks is important - yes. But as Kidology points out comparison is not always beneficial. You're still very young, Hiraeth, and I would say that patience, humility and just keep being open and inquisitive will take you a long way. Life is a process and the things that will happen will happen, but it will take time. But you've got lots of that ahead of you. Thanks for another great video, Kidology!

[@goldenmusic23]

Yes but he will never experience the life of being attractive, thats the thing, not attractive as having the face of Brad Pitt or someone hot but people treating you like u have the looks, like u are something in the world, u understand?

[@goldenmusic23]

@Joyce Strømfors since when? Girls dont see average dudes, go research it.

[@kielo3867]

@@goldenmusic23 there are also a lot of unattractive women who will never get to live life as attractive. being unattractive isn't a gender thing, you can do looks maxing to some extend but in the end you just have to accept the reality that not everybody is attractive and make most of the other things in life that you can improve. looks also fade as you grow old so it's not the best thing to put all your worth in it. I think stoicism helps as in you do what you can control and accept what you can't. you won't move forward in life if you start to wallow in the things that you can't control. having a fullfilling life is so much more than just looks and the superficial things, you need to live to see it and you can't truly live if you can't get over your insecurities and fears.

[@goldenmusic23]

@@kielo3867 my g most women rate themselves a 10? Do u really think when u download tinder and u get 1000 likes an hour u will think u are less than a 10? A girl that is like a 4 has better smv than a chad. They are the ones that let us have sex so it doesn't matter if they are good looking or not, they still get treated as they are attractive even if they are ugly, so stop the coping, yes they might not be models and etc. But their whole life they will get attention and validation even as very unattractive fenale. So in the end they will get treated as attractive one just the attractive one gets the better looking guys when the unattractive one gets the average to above average ones and sometimes those attractive ones that i am talking because lets be honest they are men that are like 8/10 but don't know their worth and they would date anyone

[@goldenmusic23]

@Joyce Strømfors yes but ask him if he breaks up with her if he will find a girl that is on her same or better level and how fast? Girls that are with average guys are either with them for short time and then dump them or they are unattractive and can't get better and that's just female biology

[@Rig0r_M0rtis]

I don't see the point of picking up random women in a mall unless you wanna prove you're "a player". If it is a relationship you really seek you probably want to meet someone with similar interests or in the same social bubble. I discussed this with many people of different ages and most couples met either at work, in school, in sports or through common friends. I know only exactly one person who met his wife in a bar and exactly one woman who met her husband on a dating site (like early 2000 dating site, not Tinder). *If you want relationship seek friendship first.* If you just want to get laid then it's different, but sex doesn't cure loneliness. Be honest about what you want. Especialy to yourself.

[@divx1001]

I wish more people were honest with what they want in life and their partner. Too many times people just want to have the same thing everyone else has without thinking whether they actually want it or not.

[@doomerbob5731]

I have always wanted to be "a player" but since I'm socially awkward, depressive af and my height is 5'5 it's impossible for me to even form good friendships with girls. They don't give me a second look. It seems like they are uncosciously disgusted by me whether I'm at the gym, at school or outside or anywhere else. Always pretty much the same resting b face and eyes full of disgust. Maybe I'm just a paranoid idk. It kills my worth as a man completely.

[@leehalloway8787]

It seems like cold calling in sales. Even good salespeople struggle to close with random people. Cold approaching is incredibly difficult; especially if you aren't charismatic, confident, and attractive.

[@ree3762]

Literally this

[@AEH-df7ho]

Won't work if your social circle consists of nerdy stem-educated men. Also if your interests have nothing to do with large exposure to people and women (for example making beats/programming etc.) Bad advice

[@catejames6453]

It’s painful for me to watch a lot of these. Because I don’t like how you’re spoken to, quite often. But I think you’re engaging in a war zone of messy emotions and you’re brave for doing so. I think this is important work you’re doing. Nice nails btw!

[@dances_with_incels]

I feel like I'm being gas lit by Kidology. There's no way she can possibly not know that if a women doesn't find a male physically attractive or financially secure that it's almost a certainty that no such encounter will occur where she would even consider a relationship.

[@LeMagnifiquePetiteEspirit]

@@dances_with_incels Are you the person she spoke with?

[@lolgamez9171]

@@dances_with_incels I mean, sure. But it's not like that's the only criteria. Unless she's shallow. Should a woman be expected to select a man she's not attracted to, and seems to have no secure future? What if she wants children? She should be expected to have children with someone she's not physically attracted to, and doesn't seem to have a secure future? Physical attraction and financial success is important for selection sure, I'm not going to pretend like perceived social status, either by appearance, financial success or what have you, isnt important for women. But it's important for a *reason,* and every woman's criteria is different. Plus, as I implied before, unless the woman is shallow, your values also matter. Like, alot.

[@dances_with_incels]

@@LeMagnifiquePetiteEspirit lol no I'm just a random listener

[@LeMagnifiquePetiteEspirit]

@@dances_with_incels oh ok lol

[@CiaoColeG]

Kidology you were in peak Big Sister mode and it was sooo good!! You were empathetic, actively listened, and although you acknowledged his very young age and inexperience, you weren't dismissive of his feelings. I appreciated Hiraeth's civility and curiosity. I hope he continues to listen to people with wisdom, finds joy in discovering new interests, and focuses more developing who he wants to become rather than achieving a particular goal (i.e. getting a girlfriend by a set time).

[@themore-you-know]

She wasn't dismissive, but just like a big sister: she was utterly ignorant. She was essentially saying "women don't look for looks", which is laughable at best, and highly dangerous to men's mental health at minimum. She's sooooo far deep down in denial. Looks it the first door, AND ONLY AFTER, does the rest of the stuff matter.

[@mizzhelloo]

@@themore-you-know Women barely look for looks. Most men in relationships aren’t super models get real.

[@themore-you-know]

@@mizzhelloo, height preferences are calling, and asking if you'd like to be connected back with reality.

[@reeb3687]

@@themore-you-knowi am not very good looking and dont have a nice physique and i am below 5'9 and i am in a relationship with someone who i know i can trust and i know that they love me (i have just enough experience to know what it feels like NOT to have those things). we bonded pretty much exclusively over conversation and similar topics of interest and ways of thinking. tldr i know for certain that im dating someone who became interested in me 100% exclusive from the basis of looks.

[@impposter560]

@@themore-you-know It is more common for women to want a taller partner, but there are women like me who prefer men the same height or shorter than me. As long as THEY aren't uncomfortable with me being taller or resent me for it, which sadly they usually are. Short guys get rejected by women, but men don't like dating women who are taller. The height preferences go both ways 🤷‍♀

[@Hello-qf3fd]

I am definitely a woman who is attracted to the male anatomy. I hate how often people make the statement of *straight* women not being attracted to men *physically* . We are. Just having sex because of attraction is a completely different thing of course. There are more than enough women who are *actually* attracted to to the sex they are *attracted* to. That's how it typically works.

[@CazzoneMagrolino]

What's the percentage of men your age you find physically attractive enough to date?

[@ancalyme]

​@@RomyLoginI thought that way too before realising I was just asexual. Asexual means you are not physically attracted to people, not that you don't want a relationship or can't have sex.

[@Yourenotsmart1999]

I’m also extremely attracted to the male body (if it is attractive).

[@Yourenotsmart1999]

@@RomyLoginI have, so many times.

[@Yourenotsmart1999]

@adrianramirez6848 Body def. I love big arms and abs. Face comes 2nd. Height comes 3rd

[@jonathancangelosi2439]

No amount of looksmaxxing will adequately prepare you for a romantic relationship. At best, it makes getting a first date easier, but you will hit a wall eventually. Focus on attracting the right woman for you, not on attracting as many women as possible. Reevaluate what you want in a partner and how it aligns with your own personality, needs, values, etc. and cultivate a personality that will draw those like-minded people to you. If you genuinely don’t like the way you look, there may be some merit in looksmaxxing, but it should never be the only thing you focus on. More than likely, there is something else holding you back. My parents always told me “you only need to attract one person.” You don’t need to attract more women than other men, you only need to attract the right woman for you. So there’s no point in getting hung up about thought experiments like “all else being equal, would the more attractive guy get the girl,” because the numbers don’t really matter, and like Kid said, it’s never going to be the case that two people are the exact same except for their appearance. It’s a meaningless, defeatist philosophy that doesn’t serve you.

[@epicfiend1999]

It's hard to attract women in this way in a society where communities are more fragmented than ever and young people are less genuinely social (as in real life organic conversations rather than online) than ever. I agree that looks aren't everything, and that numbers ultimately mean nothing if you don't have a personality and other more nuance characteristics. That being said, in an age where online dating is increasingly the most popular way for young people to meet for the first times, looks is undeniably a big factor in if you even have opportunity to get to know somebody, or figure out what it is that you actually value in a partner. It is just a reality that is cannot be avoided, both for men and women. It is fine to say that you only need to attract the right woman, but to even have a chance at finding out who the right woman is, as a man the best way to start this process is to become as generally attractive as possible while also developing personally. Doing either is hard work; doing both takes dedication and is more often than not extremely delayed gratification (not something our generation is good at). In a world of social media where we are inundated by the 1% of wealth, physical attractiveness, and talent, it is easy to have the doomer mentality of 'why even try, ill never be xyz'.

[@jonathancangelosi2439]

@@Fyzyx This is true to an extent. I think there comes a point where overfocusing on being “generally attractive” can work to your detriment, because it comes at the cost of your individuality. That said, not liking your appearance can tank your confidence, so putting some effort into that could be beneficial, especially if it makes you more comfortable in your own skin. I believe there needs to be a balance. On that note, I think looks can play a role, but ultimately confidence is what makes or breaks you, and sometimes we wrongly attribute being rejected to our looks rather than our lack of confidence because of our looks. It’s easy to blame your appearance for your lack of success, but I think most people probably need to do internal work rather than external work.

[@Southforthewinter]

@@nailinthefashion looksmaxxing should simply be going to the gym, hygiene, and finding a personal style( clothing) once you’ve got those 3 covered focus the rest on who you are inside and character etc.

[@Southforthewinter]

@@nailinthefashion I never said nothing bout forcing yourself into stretch marks lol. Everyone pace and threshold is different. but you should be getting regular exercise the same way we systematically eat we should be systematically exercising and resting. I’ve been in the gym for 5 months now consistently. no stretch marks, but it’s also very hard for me to gain size, my gains are coming in slowly but surely.

[@Southforthewinter]

@@nailinthefashion yea I’ve just now finished it. of course you should never overwork yourself. Idk where in my original comment did I make it seem like you had to grind crazy hard. that is each persons own responsibility to not overwork themselves. Just because that kid did doesn’t mean the gym being in someone reguLr routine should be thrown out the window entirely

[@billusher2265]

The reality is if you only get your partner because of how you look, they’ll leave you for someone who looks better or leave if you lose your looks.

[@ralphwilsin]

Maybe in theory, but most people aren’t going to go through 12 divorces just because they saw someone more attractive. Being hot is the best way to get you in the door when it comes to dating.

[@gaymer2316]

@@ralphwilsin I agree with that. Being hot gets you in the door, and your personality and connection with the other person keeps you there.

[@billusher2265]

@@ralphwilsin most relationships end in 2-4 years, very few people get married now and those that do divorce almost half the time

[@TimothyCHenderson]

@@billusher2265 Divorce rates have been dropping amongst younger people and increasing in the 50+. The overall rate is between 40 and 50% which means that you still have a 50 to 60% chance of your marriage succeeding.

[@billusher2265]

@@TimothyCHenderson I am aware, but that’s only because the marriage rate itself has collapsed, most people aren’t getting to that point.

[@snotrohmitabc123]

After listening to this guy talk, I don't even think he's an incel. More like a regular teen who grew up ugly and has the right mindset to change and grow into someone he himself likes and respects. I look forward to a future interview with him! Great talk and great listening skills from both parties.

[@Voyeurrrr]

Every man I’ve dated I built a friendship with first. Never ever have I accepted a cold approach because it’s scary to me. I do not use dating apps, never have and never will and I met men thru friend groups and community events. I’m engaged to a man who is 5’6 and not conventionally attractive, he can sing and play guitar and has no “status” but when he plays open mic, women will flock and swarm and hit on him right in front of me. I love him and we have built a bond over many years. Some of what he said though I agree with!! Of course a conventionally attractive man who is masculine is going to attract women!!

[@stuffedmannequin]

This is how I feel about it as well. Many of my most meaningful relationships have always been with people that I've been friends with. I think people generally feel more comfortable with intimacy or romance with people who they are already familiar with. The person I'm with now I was friends with previously for like 15 years beforehand, and we've been together for two.

[@dbdrsco-worker8534]

Exceptions don't make the rule, your husband is an exception to the rule. The vast majority of males who are the same height as your husband don't experience that even if they are talented. And of course the heightpill varies depending on the country, imagine someone being your husband's height on Netherlands for example.

[@TheMrgrafixable]

how many women do i need to make friends with? I'd rather not enter into friendships with extrinsic motivations like that but the low likelihood of leading to a relationship and limit to how many friends i can maintain forces me to.

[@CiaoColeG]

@@dbdrsco-worker8534 Plenty regular guys of short and average height with a regular job are married or in serious relationships. I know at least 2-3 dozen of these men from my church alone. Heck, my late father was 5'3" and married my mom 5'1" who is really pretty. He was in the military, so not rich. Do most men over 25 want dozens of women fawning over them or do they want a meaningful relationship with one person? I think it's the latter.

[@nicholascoob1350]

While I appreciate the sentiment of your comment, your example doesn't vindicate anything. Men know it's possible to get a woman as an unattractive man, but the men you refer to are not only unattractive conventionally, but also socially "unattractive" most likely due to past trauma or experiences and some are neurodivergent and find it hard to relate to people. You using your spouse as proof only further highlights your misunderstanding of the issues, as well as the fact that some of them also unrealistic expectations as a result of these experiences.

[@rejavenated]

The main reason I like your channel is the fact you are willing to have much needed conversations. A lot of these YT essayist try to avoid being challenged. Good job, Kid.

[@goldenfog_]

Man, this is why it’s important to have hobbies outside of the internet. Confidence and self esteem is built by accomplishing things that are outside of yourself. Meeting people, finding the right person will follow Regarding approaching people, he needs to go to places where people gather and WANT to be approached- bars when he gets older, coffee shops, school clubs/organizations, group activities etc. plus he can even pick up a job where you’re forced to talk to people like sales/retail or waiting tables. All of his hobbies/job sound very isolating and is hurting him in the life skills department

[@xbabu142x]

I work in STEM the isolation causes poor social skill development, and understanding communication is key is so rare in the younger kids entering school.

[@kylealexandrov6945]

How can you genuinely believe that nonsense. Confidence is built through positive reinforcement which is obv going to happen giving you’re good looking. People treat good looking people better, compliment them, accept advances(dating, friendships, jobs) so they’re always going to be confident. If you’re entire life has been filled with negative reinforcement - bullying, name calling, rejection you cannot be confident

[@ri-oj1ul]

@@kylealexandrov6945 false. Unfortunately.

[@stephyworld8713]

@@kylealexandrov6945 honestly, you can't base your own confidence and self-esteem off of people superficial perception of you. You will never be truly confident this way, all it takes is some rejection / invalidation of your looks and your self-esteem crumbles. Confidence is made from your understanding that whatever the people's opinion of you, YOU know who you are, YOU know what you've accomplished in this life..

[@painunending4610]

Just force yourself to do things you don't want to do bro But also don't do something just to find a partner, because women have a sixth sense for that

[@Ash2theB]

When I was 18, all I was worried about as a young woman was getting into college and having the money to attend. As you get older, your pool of friendships gets smaller. The worst you can be in a relationship is self-conscious. I actually rejected high school acquaintance because we never talked, and he wasn't in my close circle of friends, meaning the trust level was never established or boundaries pushed.

[@michaelajames99]

As women we are told to focus on getting an education and making sure we can support ourselves with less focus on relationships romantic or otherwise.

[@Exsugarbabe1]

I was too busy with college and mates to bother with a boyfriend, the relationship thing seemed like a bind.

[@Exsugarbabe1]

@@michaelajames99 Its not bad advice when you're young.

[@Returntonature145]

@@michaelajames99 If you are adult,you should know better what you want.if you want relationship,no peer pressure should stop you or shame you for getting in relationship or marriage.And if you reject guys just because you dont know them better then you are rejecting some high quality men too.

[@Exsugarbabe1]

@@Returntonature145 Young relationships are often rubbish and short. Isn't ot better to have some adventures and get an education before having a relationship.?

[@itsNotLikeICareAbout]

Truthfully, it seems a lot of this discussion could be brought down to the feeling of missing out. you see people your age doing things or being in relationships and feeling like you are somehow defective because you are not doing what others you consider like you are doing. if you don't learn to just focus and be comfortable with yourself, you can't create connections with other people that are meaningful.

[@StepBroImStuck]

You can get a relationship whenever you want it’s easy for you to tell men to focus on other things . You could just say don’t worry boys your soulmate is living her best life at the moment you’ll meet her one day when she’s ready to settle down xx

[@itsNotLikeICareAbout]

@@StepBroImStuck but thats kind of the problem. Its very clear these conversations revolve around self esteem. If you don’t have the capacity to be loving to yourself, you do not have that capacity to love anyone else. This is difficult for a lot of people and even I struggle with it. With looks maxxing we tell people when the look better all their problems will be solved but that just is not the case. Anyone who has ever struggled with their weight for instance learns this. Being pretty will not magically make you love yourself. You have to learn to love yourself.

[@John-fi4ke]

@@itsNotLikeICareAbout you can't love yourself if no one loves you

[@itsNotLikeICareAbout]

@@John-fi4ke that is incorrect. In fact, you are the only one that can love yourself at that point

[@John-fi4ke]

@@itsNotLikeICareAbout that's just delusion lol No one is gonna love himself after being bullied, rejected, made fun of, being alone for life

[@hauntedmushroomsasmr7716]

Within the first few minutes, and I mean this gently, he is going to places that are not really for socializing. People go to malls or thrift stores for shopping and errands and people go to get ice cream...to get ice cream. It shouldn't be this way, but it has become this way and women are turned off by cold approaching in most cases. It startles women and makes them feel cornered and think "who is this random person?" Better places include bars and lounges, concerts, hiking groups, cooking classes, art classes, trivia nights, conventions, or even jobs. Looksmaxxing is definitely key to taking care of yourself and making yourself more attractive, but it's so important to work on your personality too. If you're bitter, depressed, angry, arrogant, condescending, or self-centered, people are going to veer away from you. Edit 2: He claims that the threshold for physical attraction for men is getting higher and higher. I would agree, but it's also the case for women. The cosmetic industry is a multi BILLION dollar industry. Due to dating websites and the variety of tv shows and Media, people are no longer dating in their tiny town circles. They now have access to hundreds or even thousands of people so everyone feels compared to everyone else. Everyone feels pressure to be attractive and everyone has sort of lost touch with what REAL people look like. There is also not one Universal standard of what is considered attractive, that's a major component here. Thinking that everyone finds the same features attractive is bizarre and shallow. Edit 3: okay wait a second, citing that a third of young between are sexless still means that the majority of them ARE having sex. Also, encompassing both virgins and men who just haven't had sex as frequently as theyd like isnt really fair. There are people who haven't had sex in 12 months who are perfectly content and happy with life. There is more to life than the acquisition of sex, and it feels like many people in these communities use sex and relationships interchangeably. There are friendships, traveling, hobbies, pets, family, careers that make life worthwhile. Yeah looksmaxxing might make you more attractive to a wider portion of women, but what about MAINTAINING a relationship? Or is simply getting her pregnant enough? Yes there MIGHT be some physical features that are attractive to our primitive, animalistic brain but to act like beauty standards have remained stagnant for thousands of years is very shallow: beauty trends change every century, or every decade even. Just look at the celebrities that women like in pop culture, yeah there are the Channing Tatum's but the David Tennents, the Martin Freemans, the Pedro Pascals, even the Harry Styles. Attraction is truly subjective, just like the brackets in p0rn hub there are a variety of body types, styles, and types of women. Also, he just mentioned his hobbies: these hobbies are exclusively online in male-dominated sectors. Again: women do NOT like cold-approaching. It doesn't exude confidence or masculinity, it makes women feel targeted. Please don't do this. Edit 4: i agree Kid: "if it works for one guy, why can't it work for all of us?" That's not reality. I can guarantee you, it's NOT his looks. It may be a part of it, but I assure you it's not that. It's charm, some people are naturally are easy going, friendly, and earnest. They put OTHER people at ease. While his friend might not be smooth or flirtacious, maybe he is genuine and friendly and has a shy, endearing quality that women might like. This young man is weighing things like genetic cap, wealth, social circle, and argues against developing a personality. He truly doesn't believe that personality has anything to do attraction and compatibility. These men truly are more consumed with ATTAINING a woman rather than keeping her. Edit 5: it really does boil down to this brainwashing of men being focused entirely on the acquisition of sex and a partner rather than actually keeping and maintaining a relationship. I know they might say "well how can we think of keeping a woman when we can't even get access to one? One step at a time!" But I'm going to quote one of their favorite characters, the Joker from Batman The Dark Knight: "they're like a dog chasing cars, they wouldn't know what to do with it if they caught it." How exactly are you going to have a relationship with someone when the most important factor is looks? If your sole reason for persuing a woman is her appearance and vice versa, what is exactly going to keep you together? Do looks matter, of course but they are NOT everything. Instagram is not a dating app, it's not. If you are a grown man who is hunting for women on tinder and Instagram, you absolutely need to develop more of a social life in the real world. Instagram is a filtered, artificial, curated reality that is real. Are they looking at the ordinary women or the "baddies" and aspiring models? This is why most p0rn for men is visual and most for women is reading material. Edit whatever 6 maybe: it's an immature mindset, Kid. These redpillers are so consumed with youth, wealth, and sex. They don't think much about long term connections. Maybe they think they don't exist anymore? There is so much more to life than money and b!tches. Maybe they think that money will truly buy happiness, allow them access to things that were previously denied to them. But when you buy companionship, it's meaningless, it's allow. Who will be there for you when you get sick? Who will remember your birthday and make you a home cooked meal? Who will wish you luck on important days and send you a text message or pick up fast food for you when you're having a bad day? The world is beyond the virtual, it really is. It hurts me seeing someone who is still a TEENAGER be so hopeless and bitter and pessimistic of relationships but i wonder if he recognizes the companionship aspect of a relationship? What is his ideal woman?(he might say this later in the video) if he does say that, does he list anything about her personality, like how kind she is, what she likes to do, what they enjoy doing together? Or is a relationship purely based in looks and the services she can provide? My heart weeps for him when he talks about a sunken chest, acne, and his hair condition. That hurts me for him. However when he grimaced about waiting to have a relationship until he was 30, i do have to point out the main issues in this black pill movement: it reeks of desperation and insecurity. I don't say that in a nasty, mocking way. When you feel unlovable, you become consumed with searching for that validation and jealous of those that have something you feel robbed of. It's the sort of consumerism of dating, that the amount matters more than the quality. You NEED to have a grasp of real-world socialization to balance the toxicity and superficiality of the internet. I'll update this as I continue to watch the video.

[@CiaoColeG]

Yes, to all of this!! And I detest being cold approached by strangers. An employee at the auto shop asked me out recently and after politely declining I was anxious that he had my full name and license plate number. I prefer meeting men through friends, church, shared hobbies or even work. Young people need to expand their social networks instead of relying on pick up artist tricks and online platforms.

[@mizzhelloo]

Great commentary.

[@WhoBlah21]

*bars and lounges, concerts, hiking groups, cooking classes, art classes, trivia nights, conventions, or even jobs.* I know you mean well and care about these issues in hand but 6 out of 9 places you mentioned are not the greatest places to attract women, and I'm saying this as someone who has done half those things. Where I'm from bars and lounges are either filled with men or couples going out and the crowd tends to be way older than me, not to mention that I don't like drinking. I've been going to punk/metal/hardcore concerts since I was 13, when people go to concerts they go with friends and only talk to friends. Not to mention that those types of concerts are not the best places to strike up conversations with people when we're all moshing lol. Conventions are similar to concerts where people solely stick with friends and don't interact with other attendees unless there's an event, and I'm talking about Comic-Con and smaller anime/indie cons. But to be fair I haven't been to any convention in years due to how pricey they are nowadays lol. I've also done figure drawing classes and rock climbing but they're all the same deal, where people only stick with friends in a tight net. *it's so important to work on your personality too. If you're bitter, depressed, angry, arrogant, condescending, or self-centered, people are going to veer away from you.* Speaking as someone in their mid-20s, I don't have a terrible personality but I don't walk around like I'm a saint. I have a great relationship with my family and friends, they love having me around and talking to me. A lot of my lack of dating woes and struggles are kept in check in public spaces, I never bring up anything related to the blackpill or incel-like topics to anyone because it's not proper social decorum. I know very well what my flaws and shortfalls are, they aren't severe enough to damage the relationships I have with close ones and even at workplaces. I never walk outside with an angry, bitter, or depressing vibe but I do lean on the reserved and quiet side. In your last paragraph, I felt heavy for the dude too. Telling him to wait till his time comes, is one of the meaningless mantras blackpiller/incels are given throughout their teen years. Almost every blackpiller/incel has been told "You're a nice/cool/good guy, one day you'll make a lucky girl's day." The question is when? Especially when you're getting older and looking around at your peers and coworkers as they're having those experiences or how the majority of our culture and entertainment surrounds relationships and sex.

[@78percent34]

Or …..it’s mainly his looks ? Why can’t that be the answer ?! His friends do better cause they are better looking ? Why can’t the answer be so simple ?

[@christianandjesse7370]

@78 Percent it could be. Nobody said looks never matter. The issue is that these guys are insisting looks matter because women decided so lol. It makes no sense. The women who embrace sexist gender norms are the ones who want tall fit dudes who fix cars. THe women who embrase freedom of choice and expression are the ones dating short dudes, skinny dudes, dudes with dyed hair, etc. Stop rewarding the system that demands you be tall and handsome and wealthy dude.

[@pumpyronaldrump_4417]

I think what Kidology is missing is that for someone to even see your personality, vast, vast, majority of the time you need to have that attractiveness in the first place.

[@stephyworld8713]

She's didn't miss the point, she's making the argument that women define attractiveness in not only the physical looks but also personality and charm! Seems like you and the caller (and the other redpillers) simply refuse to acknowledge that.

[@painunending4610]

@@stephyworld8713 how do show your personality and charm when no one's been attracted to you? Also what if you don't have charm and don't want to. I don't want to have to act in a way that is alien and uncomfortable to myself to be considered attractive What is charm. Describe and articulate it so I can copy it and then women will be attracted to me

[@Rig0r_M0rtis]

@@painunending4610 "Describe and articulate it so I can copy it and then women will be attracted to me" there is your problem, mate. You know, life is not a meth recipe.

[@WhoBlah21]

@@Rig0r_M0rtisHe’s not asking for a recipe, he asking for advice just to a get woman to acknowledge his personality. Let me rephrase his question, assuming that a man is not a POS what can he do to make a woman see his personality?

[@Rig0r_M0rtis]

@@WhoBlah21 Well you can't "make someone" like you. I can recommend the book How to make friends and blabla by Dale Carnegie if you really struggle with seeing people as people and need to fake it. Other than that treat women like men. Do you walk to a random guy in the mall and ask him to be your friend?

[@nolongerinvolved]

He’s a kid. Guys. HE’S A KIIIID. There is another conversation to be had and that’s with parents and the other adults around our kids. As parents, we should be intermittently interviewing our children, listening to them and letting them spill their hearts out so they can process their very complicated, very scary, very seriously important emotions and ideas. As parents, as adults, we should have options of solutions or roads to solutions that we present to our own children because there is a WORLD of options and roads to go down that are one-size fits all which are rarely going to lead to a healthy, peaceful, well rounded life.. WHICH IS THE POINT OF RAISING CHILDREN. YOU know YOUR child. Don’t leave them to the violence of the void. We live in a different era, ladies and gentlemen. We have got to TEACH and GUIDE our children so that we don’t have to PROTECT our children when they are of age. God bless all of you parents, not sure if other parents are watching this, but God bless the rest of you all the same. May you find peace, fulfillment, and clarity.

[@maanihunt]

i second the thom yorke comment hahah. his interest in music, dedication to using unusual chords and just his general other worldly darkness is so attractive to me. it's more about his creative personality and ability to explore that, that does it for me. the same goes for bill burr, he's an average sized, bald headed man with a red beard (people usually dislike this appearance) but his talent on stage is so attractive to me. he has had depression but pushed through his challenges to work on his comedic abilities, where he now commands the room, because of his personality but also the skills he acquired to do that. also thanks so much kid for doing these videos, very impressive that you can keep returning to the incel well to learn more and try and learn from and help those you engage with

[@WhoBlah21]

I think it's also important to mention how women also need to form an identity and personality. I don't mean it as a slight or an insult, but there are also women in this similar position where they're having a hard finding and locking down a man. One thing I've been noticing both IRL and online is the alarming amount of women that lack a substantial hobby that they're passionate about, whenever I ask a female coworker or former college classmate what they do in their free time the answer is always "IDK watching tv or listening to music" and nothing else. This to me is disappointing because as much as I want to share my interests/hobbies that are not video games btw, I also want to know what they're deeply interested in that is outside of their careers, watching tv, listening to music, or going out to eat. Also, I think both men and women need quick refreshers on conversational and communication skills, there needs to be an emphasis on "it takes two to tango." The reason I won't go as hard on men is that we're put in the position of being the initiator and most of the onus of leading a conversation is on us for the most part, this is why despite the many negativities of the redpill/manosphere at least they do give advice and recommend books on how to communicate with people. In my personal experience especially on dating apps (which I don't use anymore) the general vibes I get from speaking or texting women, it doesn't feel like a conversation, it feels like we're playing a game where my job is to entertain her with enough well-thought-out pickup lines and jokes to make her stay interested. Most men don't like that. Now I'm not saying that once you do these things you won't run into a sleazeball or fuckboi. I understand safety and precautions are of the utmost importance, especially when meeting a man for the first time, but expressing a sense of personality and identity is just also important.

[@el4244]

Yeah you're right, that's why people often find partners through their hobbies. Since there's already a basis for interaction and a shared passion. For example I play pen and paper and do larp, and most people in those hobbies found their significant other there. Since they are social hobbies and a great way to connect to people.

[@RodaRora]

Isn't being shallow or NPC-ish kind of a character trait? I know some people like that and they are into other shallow people (girl who likes Netflix and traveling + guy who likes to kick a ball and beer = perfect match). If that's who they are then they probably won't last long with a person that's into more than that and eventually end up with a person who also doesn't like to question or to get too deep into anything. I say, let's let them date each other and clear out the dating pool for everyone else lol

[@BlueOwlsFly]

I agree. I think that’s the problem with being 18-25 in the dating scene no matter the gender. There’s still a lot of self discovery to be had and you most likely haven’t reached your fullest potential as a person. So of course finding a partner and healthy relationship is much more of a challenge. Also a lot of dating apps are inherently flawed especially the ones just purely based on looks like tinder. If there’s nothing in common to talk about then it’ll simply go nowhere. It feels soulless and draining. Looks can only get someone so far.

[@minabotieso6944]

@@BlueOwlsFlythe number of women we are talking about in that situation are small. According to pew research it is 30% of American women in their 20s who are single vs 60% for men and most single women don’t want to date according to that study, Women are really thriving right now, they can make it by with no life and expecting the man to entertain

[@Blub2cool]

@@minabotieso6944women do want to date according to that study. It’s men that are more likely to look for something casual or looking for both something casual and/or committed. Women were more likely to strictly for a commitment then men. So this is false. Most adults (men and women) aren’t looking for anything at all.

[@justhearmeout3959]

My boyfriend is a keloid former. That means that every cut turns into this big bubble of skin. Many of his keloids are on his face and head. He wears his story on his skin, and that's beautiful to me. Each of those massive bubbles is a story about a moment in his life, that I can remember each time I see them

[@jones2277]

why isn't he more careful?

[@jones2277]

@FyreWanderer my brother has the same condition. knowing that he gets keloids, he's very careful.

[@prettyxbonez96]

@@jones2277 Did you ever think it's preventable also is that all you took about physical appearances of course you did. *Clinically Depressed...bro just stop appear more happier and go to the gym head ass 🤔

[@jones2277]

@@prettyxbonez96 do you know what keloids are?

[@tinamenon1593]

What a beautiful stoic and ultimately romantic view of the human tapestry aka body. A narrative story of a lifetime of battles overcome and exhibited to all. If only men in general, including men who have committed to women in relationships didn't revile in disgust at physical incurred during those relationships including pregnancy or other scars. This also applies to any visible sign of aging on any woman as a direct correlation of her moral or other degeneracy even though the men viewing her will be objectively viewed by their peers as old, aging etc.

[@leitmotif7268]

I’m loving this comment section, so many excellent observations and insights into how many perspectives there are when it comes towards relationships, dating, and self actualization.

[@frusia123]

Cold approaching women is a recipe for rejection and shows a deep, deep misunderstanding of women. I honestly don't know a single woman who would react positively to being randomly approached on the street or in a pub. That only happens in movies, in real life most women will be freaked out by this.

[@78percent34]

A pub ?! Isn’t that like a bar ?!!!

[@nanabunz]

@@78percent34 yeah?

[@78percent34]

@@nanabunz it’s literally the setting where it’s most acceptable to do so

[@frusia123]

@@78percent34 Acceptable for whom?

[@78percent34]

@@frusia123 for those who go there, where should men approach women then?

[@noname2024-g4b]

One thing I notice with these type of high achieving men that aren't successful with women is there is such a lack of warmth in their conversation. Even as a man I wouldn't want to get caught in a conversation for too long with them because their is an obsession with their achievements that leaves them feeling flat. If I'm feeling that as a man, I imagine it must feel even more apparent for women.

[@richardcaulker1017]

I have seen too many women go instantly weak at the knees at the sight of fit, tall, handsome males, to believe that women are any less turned on by looks than men are. As a young man I had many one night stands with women who were in relationships, based on mutual physical attraction alone.

[@zwiebelface185]

You don't need to brag.

[@richardcaulker1017]

@Zwiebelface What point iwould there be in bragging where nobody knows me or can even see me? I was just making the point that women are sometimes not that different from men when it comes to sex.

[@zwiebelface185]

@@richardcaulker1017 It makes me feel inferior.

[@nobaneado]

​@@zwiebelface185😐

[@virtualvoid106]

Drawing a male conclusion of these events won't automatically make them true for women. I go weak at the knees around very good looking people, famous people, high status people, etc, doesn't mean I'm being horny for them. And yep women are diverse, many enjoy one night stands based on looks, also there are many men who don't. "Fit, tall" are not everyone's type and "handsome" is subjective to a shocking extent.

[@spatulawithcurd5051]

I will say that I really hate the phrase “having something to offer” in terms of dating. The idea that we’re no more than what we can do for people is so depressing and transactional. It emphasizes an idea that we’re not enough, and if we are to be loved, it is because we’re useful, not because we’re uniquely wonderful

[@ReaperCet]

Well, I'm a guy. I'm painfully aware of how the world sees me.

[@RodaRora]

@@ReaperCet and what are women supposed to say to that? 🤣 being constantly reminded by men, advertising, media, that we're a piece of meat as good as our looks with a shelf life of 30-35 years. And don't get me started on sexuality, expectations of being someone's lifetime therapist because we're ''more emotional'', having to desire having biological children and being their main caretaker, jeez...

[@ReaperCet]

@@RodaRora you're not supposed to say anything. Male/female dynamics are 2 sides of the same coin. We both have expectations imposed on us by society

[@RodaRora]

@@ReaperCet cool, then let's all have a discussion about that, because everywhere I look online it's like a big contest of who has it worse. ''you're not supposed to say anything.'' - is that supposed to be an example of how men treat women to add to my argument or just your lack of communication skills leading to no luck with them?

[@ReaperCet]

@@RodaRora I just wasn't baiting a response in that particular moment. Men only have a place in society if they're useful. I believe that to be true. And women have a bunch of problems to deal with as well. But you don't necessarily need to say that in *response to what I said.* They're just 2 things that are independently true. "What are women supposed to say to that?" Nothing. It's just unfortunate, that's all. You could be like "masculinity is a social construct" That doesn't change the fact that I still need to perform masculinity effectively in order to be valued as a man in 2023.

[@justhearmeout3959]

I wish so much that these men would realize there are millions of women out here just desperate for love, to be treated with love. They're so focused on the initial encounter, on "getting the girl" that I fear they've lost sight of what it takes to keep her.

[@etdonc3572]

Women are the gatekeeper of relationships, men engage and women accept or refuse, in the overlwheiming amount of case... Especially when the man isn't a 10 or a 9, no women will approach him. So he has to do it... if we can never be accepted on the initial encounter, how do you even get to "treating someone with love", a lot of us have never reach that point.

[@ralphwilsin]

Where they at tho?

[@justhearmeout3959]

@@chrisc4507 I'm in a trauma group. A lot of these women have been abused by men like that, and they just want someone to treat them well, to treat them like they're more than just a trophy - because we are. We're not trophies that are won by some weird man game. We're whole people.

[@billusher2265]

@@justhearmeout3959 if they just want someone to treat them well, how did they end up in abusive relationships? We watch what people do not what they say.

[@SQUELCH-zj7il]

@@billusher2265 Abusive people are not always abusive. Moreover, people show their true colours with time. Sometimes people pretend until after marriage or pregnancy. It's silly to think people willingly enter abusive relationships. Some people just do not know the red flags until it is too late.

[@kisaia]

I'm a woman of a certain age. I've an observation I find interesting: It seems like while many men are into the looksmaxxing scene currently, many women are into what I'll call a "spot the narcissist scene" now. I don't know what that means precisely to the dating scene, though, other than everybody is in some freaking sad pain when it comes to relationships. It breaks my heart a little. I met my partner (a middle aged man with a beer belly, middling-income, mid-attractive but sweet as pie, hilarious, adorkable, and honorable to a fault) 10 years ago through online dating, but before Tinder was as big as it got. I "winked" at him because he seemed funny and kind in his profile. He didn't have a selfie as a initial profile pick, just a photo of his eye (he's a photographer- artsy type). He said he contacted me back because I said I liked whiskey and punk bands. I don't see how you can find even this tiny bit out about a person just swiping right or left. I know I was interested in who he was and he was interested in who I was, not what we could achieve in a partner rating game. We both had been hurt, used, and abused. We just wanted someone to understand and understand us. Does this help anyone? I don't know. I hope you all find your lobster (There. That dates me, I guess.) Good luck out there.

[@danrope6160]

You are an outlier. But I'm happy for both of you.

[@Myraisins1]

I just clicked on this but mentally couldn't finish when I heard 18yrs old! Sorry but at 18 yrs old my parents would whop my you know what if I were focused so much on dating. In fact it was highly discouraged. We had to focus on finishing up HS and starting college. With that, extracurricular activities and part time jobs there was simply no time. Whatever happened in college I suppose was fair game as long as grades were up and there were no accidents that would derail completion and career plans. And yes we all understood we were regular shmegular average joe's as majority of people are. I'm sorry this dating is too much pressure too soon. It's crazy!

[@HaleyStark.]

The problem with cold approaching is that I dont (and I dont think many other women) want to be approached by a man when I KNOW that the ONLY thing he knows about me is that he saw me and was attracted to me. It's so superficial, and it gives no indication that we would have anything in common. And statistically, we probably wouldn't. Whenever people cold approach me I always kind of grimace and I'm like, "Why? Do you have a ginger fetish or something? I could have nazi tattoos under my sleeves. I could be taking this dog I'm walking over to my personal dog fighting ring. You literally know NOTHING about me."

[@MizTheDonGargon]

it's no different then tinder....

[@HaleyStark.]

@@MizTheDonGargon well I don't use tinder. But there are dating apps where people basically have their whole biographies lol. Their politics, how many kids they want, weird sexual fetishes... Dating apps are also different in that a) everyone there wants to be hit on unlike people just going about their business in public and b) they have to reciprocate interest by matching with you before you can talk to them, and c) there is no physical threat on tinder if the guy turns out to be a creep. Women can just block him and forget about him, instead of having to extract herself from a sketchy situation.

[@michaelajames99]

I agree. It seems like people like him consider cold approaching a numbers games more than anything else which is off putting as a woman

[@Returntonature145]

@@MizTheDonGargon Cold approaching works for chads but still 90% rejection expected.Tall,At least 6.No matter how much they say looks don't matter,i have seen young women gravitate towards good looking guys when they approach women compared to short average looking guys.

[@alanshivers2672]

lol no don't lie if a hot guy approached you you would accept his advances

[@masa-pt9vs]

what an insightful conversation!! I feel really sad for this generation of young men being manipulated for their own insecurities(which is normal, young people are supposed to be insecure, being uncomfortable is how you develop into a real, responsible adult). I agree with kid, I am an attractive young woman, but dressing up, putting on makeup and being feminine didn't really help me in finding a partner. and I feel for this young man, like I am nineteen and I feel this immense pressure to find a partner, both from society and from within myself. being lonely, especially when you are young, is hard. but sex and attention won't cure loneliness. I hope he reads these comments and finds some useful advice . mine would be to get off social media ASAP. the redpill community does not want you to be happy. manosphere to men is what beauty industry is to women- they want to monetize of your insecurities and keep you miserable by setting these unreachable standards. also, start reading philosophical work, it helped me get some very useful and applicable life advice.

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

The manosphere is to men what the beauty industry is to women. Very insightful! They profit off of your insecurities and constant try ti make new ones for you so that you will continue to be hooked. They don't want you to be happy, they want you to buy in.

[@minabotieso6944]

This issue would exist with or without the pill stuff. According to a pew research study 60% of ameircan men in their 20s are single while it’s 30% for women. Young guys really stressed about dating is not irrational or self inflicted. Most guys don’t get to participate

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

just start reading period lmfao. These men ought to try reading words on a page, not looking at overpaid strangers on a screen who're wearing makeup, wigs, and had plastic surgery.

[@issasecretbuddy]

the thom yorke thing stuck out to me. to attribute thom yorke's attractiveness not to what he can do, but to how he's seen- how he's famous- feels so grim. like, not even allowing for the idea that you could go to some local backyard show or see someone busking on the street and be swept away by it. it feels like there has to be status or fame or wealth. in this world, you can't just love something because you love it

[@Jo-sd3ch]

Quote: Women are not attracted to the male anatomy like males are. WRONG: Are you kidding me? Do you know how many women swiped right on ripped morons, loved him and had their hearts broken. I even know a lady who swipped right on a ripped guy with no head in his profile. He was married and she still compromised. Now you will say that is dating apps. It also happens IRL. Many attractive and ripped men take women above their level home easily. Kidology. You're wrong on this one, especially in this generation

[@PhelippeMitsu98]

Exactly! Has she even seen any recent TikToks from women?

[@geraldthebusdriver3491]

It's sad but true unfortunately I fear dying alone as virgin, wakes me up in the night

[@SupaSupaKewl]

Although I do largely agree with you on aspects of maturing and developing healthy tong-term romantic relationships, I think this conversation would've been more productive if you acknowledged looks are an important factor, especially when starting a relationship or getting a first date. Maybe they're not important to you since you use your own experiences as an examples, but for many other women it matters. Looks get your foot in the door. For (the very few) women on dating apps that just want to casually hook up, looks, being the only thing that can be judged accurately on a dating profile, are basically the only thing that matters. At some points I feel like you're talking past one another, since your mentality seems to be focused on building a healthy long-term romantic relationship, whereas the young man, as desperate as it sounds, wanted any opportunity to connect with women in any way possible, and that looksmaxxing would help him do just that. As dumb as it sounds there is a "science" to attraction and beauty and not all of it varies with individual preference. A lot of beauty standards are dictated by cultural and societal expectations, but there are fundamental aspects like symmetry, eye spacing, skin clarity, and many others. A lot of these are indicators of good health and genetics. Some of the older videos from the youtube channel QOVES dose a good job of breaking down the "science" of beauty and attraction. Looks are important, and people (like myself) are more shallow than they'd like to admit. They're secondary when it comes to long-term relationships, but good looks get your foot in the door and improve your chances. It's great that you're still engaging with the Looksmaxxing community and gave this young man the opportunity to speak (especially after they stole your photos and made a fake dating profile), but I feel like you denied this young man the truth that looks do matter, at least to a degree, throughout this conversation.

[@lukefriede2986]

I agree completely. Kid went straight to the top of Maslow's hierarchy, not considering the fact that many of these guys are 18 and unable to even talk to girls they're attracted to. A small looks and confidence boost is exactly what they need to start the journey of self growth and relationship building. The important part for them is to move on from it eventually.

[@gaymer2316]

Yeah it kind of bothered me how throughout the whole thing kid cited her personal experiences, and the experiences of her friends as sources for ‘looks not mattering’ to women. It would be just as easy for another woman to say that looks do matter based on her own experiences. It seemed like kid was combating his generalities by saying “Everyone’s unique” and more or less refusing to really say anything definitive that might’ve made a real impact. Kid talks about the long term, and the guy is talking about just finding a woman in general, which are just different goals. When concerned with the long term it’s better to focus on personality and things like that, but when your goal is to attract anybody at all in the first place, the personality of any potential partners is not going to be as much of a focus. I didn’t find this discussion to be all that productive because kid wasn’t able to meet him where he was at.

[@Jacobyfilms]

I agree, wasn’t a fan of that aspect. Him bringing up how successful his friend was at cold approach and then him not being successful was one as well as the people in his friend group being in relationships and why would he have to wait over a decade to be with somebody. I mean the difference is pretty obvious and a big part of that is looks.

[@britb4544]

I do think Kid addressed this topic well. And high key, she’s not obligated to put emphasis on looks for casual dating. There’s a difference in both men and womens emphasis on looks for dating. Just because the calibre of women, most young men find attractive, are looking for particular physical traits, DOES not mean ALL women are looking for those traits. Vice versa. Also these are grey issues, not black or white. There may be a feature that appears unattractive on some but reads as attractive on others. With all that nuance, no one is obligated to firmly state “looks matter”. They play a role in our societal hierarchies, but individuals are allowed to determine how important “looks” are in their day to day.

[@el4244]

@@britb4544 100% agree with your statement. As you said it does play a role but it also depends on what you're looking for and how you approach those people. And when men try to settle for lesser attractive women they often don't put as much into it or are borderline rude and therefore will get rejected as well.

[@_sniper2305]

I listened to most of this interview. Several observations - 1. Kidology: a. you did a great job interviewing Hiraeth. I could hear the consideration in your voice, it was touching. Many 18 year old teenage men are quite a bit more sensitive then they let on (especially when they feel like they've "struck out" with women, or in other aspects of their life), and the rapport between you two reflected that: it was almost like you were a caring older sister. Good job! b. 23:30 - I agree with you here. I think the fundamental foundation of masculinity (and for that matter, femininity) is competence, but I also think that that includes Emotional Intelligence as much as anything else. Masculinity can (and should) bring positive traits: strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness. But that should include the possibility to take on some positive feminine traits when needed (supportiveness, gentleness, modesty, humility - among others). 2. Hiraeth: a. I strongly recommend you read the book "Psychocybernetics". The biggest battle you will (actually are) finding is the one in your own head, and the contents of that book will help you in that struggle. Read it slowly and internalize it: no amount of looksmaxxing will help you in that struggle unless you understand the broad concepts from that book. Looksmaxxing makes _some_ sense (after all, keeping good hygiene and health standards is smart and pays off for you), but think of doing it for your benefit/enjoyment, not some random woman's benefit. If you're doing the lifting etc. for your own benefit, you're starting to give yourself the identity Kidology was referring to. b. I also strongly recommend that the vetting process is a two way street: women clearly vet men, and men should do the same (much of the problem starts when either party doesn't do that and just settles for whatever comes along, or for shallow reasons). Men have it tough in the sense that sex and objectification are really put out there by society. It's hard to get to a place where that doesn't trickle into an individual man's life, and even harder when surrounded by shallowness. This makes for a tough journey, and I can only say that it makes it sweeter on the other side of that journey. Good job by both of you!

[@simpdefendmlady6579]

Tradcon make-belief word salad

[@Jana__Marie]

45:50 looks are not attractive for women? Sounds quite hypocrit. I think this young man has a point though. Of course, it's true looks are not everything. But come on, if you use dating apps, looks is everything that counts. Let's not pretend that that's not the case... I had a couchsurfing guest yesterday, a short and chubby Indian guy. He asked me to give his tinder profile a makeover, so he would recieve some matches. I didn't have the heart to tell him "look, none (maybe 1 out of 1000) of those girls on here in this western country are going to be seriously interested in you. Don't bother waisting your time and money with this app". I told him to be himself, be nice and concentrate on studying and eventually he will meet somebody sooner or later. He was a nice guy indeed, quite funny and bubbly, definitely there is somebody out there for him. But people like him will use dating apps&social media and even in real life their only thought is "how can I get girls to be interested in me" and eventually they will become bitter and disappointed. Why lie to them by saying girls don't care about looks? Most of them do and people like him waste their time thinking they had a chance.

[@blackmojoking820]

Finally, some sense of sanity. The amount of mental gymnastics just to admit women go for good looking guys and some men don't cut it is insane. Personally I've now come to realise your fate when it comes to attracting women was decided when you were first conceived in your mother's womb. Now I know it was over the day I was born. It never began for me. It's hopeless but it's liberating.

[@Jana__Marie]

@@blackmojoking820 I mean don't paint it black like that. First of all, you can work on your looks by going to the gym and taking care of yourself in general. Also, a big part of being attractive is also how you carry yourself and what your mindset "looks like". I myself am attracted to very knowledgable and kind people, rather than to fit gym bros. It's just that this kind of person (at least the kind I would find considerable) would not look for people on a dating app. I guess it's just best (for all of us) to work and concentrate on oneself, in physical and/or personality matters. There will be someone someday. Rather not when you are expecting them and maybe not on a dating app.

[@Jana__Marie]

@@blackmojoking820 also, don't lose yourself in self pity, that's what really makes somebody unattractive/unapproachable

[@blackmojoking820]

@@Jana__Marie The fact that I'm supposed to do all this just for someone to show genuine interest in me means it never began for me. That advice works for regular looking dudes not sub-humans. Most good looking people have good looking personalities, aura and intellect. Confidence is a by-product of good looks as a result of positive reinforcement from one's environment. Trying to "master" it is just a fool's errand. You'd eventually get sus'ed out.

[@Jana__Marie]

​@@blackmojoking820 hm, it seems like the person that is hindering is really just yourself. Of course, you should be loved for who you are, the way you are. But the fact that you apparently degrade yourself as "sub-human" tells a lot though. I can only repeat myself, first of all we should work on ourselves *for ourselves*, physically (only to an extent to stay healthy is really that necessary) and especially mentally. Try not to pity yourself. It seems you have become bitter already, and that for sure attracts the least people, also in unromantic but friendship sense. You can achieve confidents through different ways, academically for example. Also, who doesn't like kind people? We can be kind for the kindness sake, not even for our sake.

[@IsiahHD]

That's the saddest part of all of this. He's 18!!!!! 18 and he's getting ready to throw the towel.

[@Tessy29k]

He's just a completely confused soul

[@purpleflows5680]

It’s so weird. There are cultures where men are not allowed to consider mating and marriage until they are 30 to give them time for self-development and self-cultivation prior to becoming a husband. 18 is literally still a kid. He needs to focus on himself and growing into an adult and worry less about women.

[@missandry2669]

@Mr. M Funny how TickTock misandrist aren’t shooing men or causing most mass shootings? 🤔

[@PossibleBat]

To be honest at 18 I thought the same, I’m 29 now and thankfully I don’t think like that anymore

[@EricB-di6rl]

@Mr. M the black pill has a lot of truths. The better looking you are, the more options you have. It is wise for a man to make himself as attractive as possible to have more options.

[@consciouscrypto3090]

I may wind up leaving several comments as you go along, but I definitely cosign your comments around 19:00 about dynamic personalities with some kind of talent being very attractive to women, and this possibly leading to sexual attraction, even if the man isn't what is considered 'successful.' I had a musician serenade me once and I was hooked, even though he was broke then and I was the one living large. He was short, overweight, and with bad teeth, plus older than me. But he was mesmerizing. Years later he did become sort of famous, but that didn't add to his attraction for me at all. I've tended to prefer musicians who aren't famous, so I can have more of them to myself. But I get men believing that it all comes down to looks or wealth/status when women pick men, because that's the story being promoted online and the women getting attention are the ones who are shallow like that. Whatever fits the narrative gets amplified, but it's a distortion of the real world.

[@beewest5704]

Yes ppl, should just step out more. Its not that simple but at the same time it is as simple. Lol

[@consciouscrypto3090]

​@@beewest5704 ​ @Bee West simple but not easy. We all have a fear of failing or being embarrassed. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, as the saying goes.

[@michaelajames99]

@@consciouscrypto3090 Going outside is about more than looking for potential dates but about looking at the relationships around you as a guide rather than the internet

[@consciouscrypto3090]

@@michaelajames99 great point!

[@painunending4610]

I'm an artist, I did fine art education and enjoy making unique objects and customising clothing in a unique manner. People often said I have unique and dynamic visual style and language. You could call that a dynamic talent No woman has ever been attracted to me. That's my experience and it's real and valid. In my experience women are not attracted to dynamic talents (however if the dude displaying them is attractive then it's a different story)

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

Reality: Cold approaching only works really well when you’re in the top 10% of attractiveness. Being hot will give you an edge. Most relationships are formed bc of friendships and proximity to women consistently. Gotta be in the room with the same woman for 6 months consistently and she may grow to like you, if you’re funny or charismatic.

[@masterwerneck]

You touched the point!! I have been said that for long but women and even incels seems to not perceive this very obvious thing: unattractive men gets conventionally atractive women when not due sugar-daddy stuff througly acquanticement on social circle; like it's highly unlikelly that an ugly/average dude will pull a really attractive girl on a club, bar, pub or cold aproacch in general, but if this dude already has some acquanticement with this girl on work, college and friends-of-friends, it's more likelly to attract her for the personality traces that usually needs time to be shown. My point is that much guys want a girlfriend for now, they don't want wait for building a social circle from zero to experiment things which some dudes do instantanelly just going on a coffe-shop. It's what the political correct and virtue signalling women who comment here and another incel videos don't seem grasp.

[@ninagrace-lee8323]

@@masterwerneck Yes it’s literally called networking and being a human being. No need for pick up artist stuff when you re around her consistently, compliment her occasionally, and show you have a decent life. Peer interactions work the best, but no one wants to put in the work to make that happen Dating apps have convinced both men and women that we have more options than we really do. You are who you are consistently around

[@masterwerneck]

@@ninagrace-lee8323 It seems to me very very unreasanoble waits that a guy with no friends or a social circle formed by few nerds meets a girlfriend througly acquanticementship, it just won't work! Cold approach and online dates would be a solution, but everyone knows even the virtue signalling women who put their gaslights here on this video, that on this kind of circunstance looks are everything.

[@dorikin333]

@@ninagrace-lee8323 Youre right but the issue is that if a guy isn’t in HS/College or doesn’t get lucky and work at a place where he’s surrounded by young attractive single women then the chances of this happening are slim. Not to mention it’s still risky relying on proximity to get girls because there’s still a chance that you’re gonna remain in the friendzone which is why I’m saying that social circle strategy only really works in HS/College where you can have many many female friends and eventually get lucky with one of them.

[@omgthisismeomgthisisme]

6 months is way too much lmao. But having same social circle even for few days helps.

[@minayesh8012]

I am 22 right now and i have dated a bunch of people over the years, and what i can say what ive learned and also observed in my friends dating habits, is that, while we can appreciate people who are very attractive or really fit, its almost never the men we go for and never the men we have longterm relationships with. Maybe for a singular hookup but its often accompanied by gross feelings and regret afterwards. The people I have dated who I still have a lot of appreciation for even though we didnt work out were always my friends first. People you could build a genuine connection with and who made you feel good for who you are. Some of them were handsome, some of them werent conventionally attractive, but their features became more handsome the better i knew them, the more I know how each emotion looked on his face. Yes it is about looks but not the way most boys think, its about the look of someone you like, and that is a look you can only achieve by closeness and friendship and mutual understanding of each other.

[@name7505]

You conceded that when it comes to hooking up then it is about physical attractiveness. Incels want to partake in hook up culture but cannot due to being physically unattractive. Thats the issue.

[@christianandjesse7370]

@Name that's unfortunate. They can increase looks all they want and it may or may not work. And hookup cukture is usually a short time in people's lives, so a lot will work hard and miss the mark. And then they end up 40 and trying to fuck 20 year Olds, and then they're bitter that people see them, justifiably, as creeps. Sometimes acceptance of who you are is the less painful path

[@newperson9662]

We love hook ups. Good thing that you women can be obese and of retirement age and still hook up with hot young men, while your male versions remain incels

[@peniasd]

I can totally confirm this from the other end. My girls has been with perfect 10s who just simply couldn't get along with, confidence and their values had a lot to do with her not being into them any longer. That being said she loves hearing me talk and ramble about any topic and discussing and sharing opinions, points of view and information, she says that it makes me super attractive to her like no one else has. There's something there that my incel pals are missing, Looks can only get you so far specially as we get older. Learn to cultivate yourselves and enjoy life as it is. You may miss the hook up phase of the youth (as a lot of people have and will) but at leat you won't be wallowing in resentment for a situation you couldn't finish accepting and assimilating. Sometimes you will need a makeover or "looksmaxxing" to gain confidence, but most likely you will need internal work and self reflection, therapy is good for that. A man with most of his shit together or at least sorted is very attractive, don't underestimate the power of a mind in orther.

[@newperson9662]

@@peniasd Idk man, I'd love to think this narrative is true, but if you live in a big city, study in a college, work in big corporations, or just have a social life, it's difficult to ignore how important it is for men to be conventionally good looking. I think your narrative works if you live a rather isolated life and manage to end up in a marriage. It's one of the reasons why I preferred the lock down / work from home situation during the pandemic.

[@MartianGirl347]

It’s hard for me to believe that people are that superficial… maybe I’m just naïve, but I just don’t understand how a person could willingly create these restrictions that prevent potentially meaningful experiences and connections that could help you grow as a person. I’ve recently been made fun of for being attracted to “ugly” men, but I can’t say I ever really thought about it until it was pointed out to me. I’d say I’m attracted to people’s auras rather than their looks… I notice those little pieces of a person’s authentic self peeking through the cracks of the walls they’ve put up and getting brighter over time. I need to see the humanity within the human to be attracted to them.

[@marcorubboli9415]

100% agree. The main problem with this (interesting) conversation is that Kid kept referring to real life situations, whereas Hireath kept using situations in which people get picked based on their looks (dating apps, cold approaches, social media) as examples of how society works. It almost seemed like his take was: "attractive people have it easier than unattractive people on dating apps". Well, duh. That's why you should be a nice person and talk to people offline unless you were gifted with extraordinary looks

[@MartianGirl347]

@@marcorubboli9415 BIG emphasis on "kid." He's well-spoken and is able to argue his points very well, but there's just too much life he hasn't lived yet. And if he's looking to get girls on Instagram, I can't imagine they are the most authentic people in the world... focusing too much on one's appearance can prevent a person from exploring introspectively, which I believe is necessary to develop an authentic self. Why would you want to shape who you are with how you believe you want others to perceive you? Don't make no sense to me...

[@alanshivers2672]

sounds like you are lieing to make yourself look like a good person, because all observable evidence pionts to women placing the most emphasis on looks, thats why the looksmaxxing and incel movement has grown

[@MartianGirl347]

@@alanshivers2672 There'd be no point to lie in some random comment section filled with people I will likely never meet, but it's not like I can actually prove to you that I'm telling the truth about myself. You are free to believe whatever you want. No shade here. I'm not saying that it ISN'T the case, necessarily. My current bf has expressed the same thing about females. The communities you listed HAVE grown, and there's definitely a reason for it... or else it wouldn't have happened. I believe it's a societal problem rather than men vs women. Due to the ubiquity of social media, society is inundated with constant images of what people "should" look like, and that affects every person using it. We could also go into the fact that women are more socially-driven creatures and how that plays into the issue... it's a complex topic that definitely does not have a black and white answer.

[@alanshivers2672]

@pinksappho ☆ quit virtue signaling

[@pearlhay9964]

This one was interesting, I think average men have discovered lookmaxxing, after women have, discovering that attraction and caring about your appearance is socially advantageous. Imo, they have every right too, but for Kid and many other women, caring about your looks doesn’t solve the existential problems. As seen in social media you can be a shit person, but find material and social comfort for being attractive. I think a next topic to consider would be charisma, as it deals with attraction but hits at something deeper than attraction itself. I say if men want to get pretty and that will boost their self-esteem do it,as you reconcile with yourself and take on a personal project such as lookmaxxing, the process can be very rewarding as you can see the results that you were directly responsible for. In those ways vanity can be productive and useful, not in larger society but within the dimensions of personal self image

[@heavenlyarianator6335]

Yeah great point that women have already been doing looks maxing this entire time, and it makes sense that men should do it now that women also have jobs. We should all have jobs and good hygiene lol

[@RodaRora]

I love how men just couldn't use already existing words for these things, or even just ''taking care of your looks''. Like it doesn't sound manly enough, god damn it, it has to sound like x-games or some shit

[@heavenlyarianator6335]

@@RodaRora so true and every single thing they categorize, red pill, black pill, blue pill, soy, based, they are so boring as a group

[@RodaRora]

@@heavenlyarianator6335 I always thought that these designs on men's yoghurts and cosmetics (steel-imitating prints, bold fonts, no colors other than navy blue, grey, black and red) were patronizing to men but it looks like they like it themselves lol

[@ree6487]

@@heavenlyarianator6335 unnuanced take with no self awareness. what's new 🥱

[@megsley]

it's amazing to me that looksmaxxing is even a thing - people used to dress nicer to put their best foot forward, to look put together in public. it was almost just a common sense thing. now people choose to go out in public in ripped sweats, old pajamas, not combing their hair etc. and then wonder why nobody wants to date them 😂

[@the1stman817]

I put on my nicest jawline when in public

[@Exsugarbabe1]

It's more complicated than that. I don't dress up, that's how people are in the South of England. I loved dancing and having a laugh so I never wore high heels and I never learnt how to put make up on. I was more successful with boys than the girls who dressed up. Other areas are more glitzy, I guess I wouldn't pull there!

[@John-fi4ke]

Girl we are talking about going to the gym everyday and getting sliced upon on a surgery table, not fucking combing your hair, are you that daft?

[@Returntonature145]

Lot of guys follow all these rules but still get rejected by women because they are not tall enough,good looking enough,or women don't like them because of race,nationality. So many reasons.Just dressing nicely isn't going to attract any women

[@Returntonature145]

@@Exsugarbabe1 Its easy to please men but pleasing women is very hard

[@TheJuicyTangerine]

I want to point out a bit of criticism in how Kidology approached this interview. What made this somewhat difficult to watch is that I'm one hour in, and Kidology has not recognized that she's made an assumption about the goals of Hiraeth that she hasn't validated. Kidology makes the assumption that all individual's goals in dating is to end up with a long term successful relationship. Whereas Hiraeth's goals seems to be more about receiving attention and thus validation from women. In Hiraeth's defence, if your goal is purely for recieving attention from women, then looksmaxxing is probably a more optimal strategy. But all of Kidology's reponses in this interview was under the assumption that the ultimate goal here is a meaningful relationship. Under such an assumption, then it's very clear that lookmaxxing is not the optimal approach, and even so potentially detrimental, as an obsession over looks detracts from building up yourself in other ways. Kidology would have made this interview a lot smoother by noticing this difference in priority and directing the conversation towards goals itself, rather than the realization of such goals. To make an analogy, suppose dating was job hunting. Hiraeth is optimizing for getting more interviews, rather than passing them, which may hurt him in the long run. But from Hiraeth's perspective, how could other aspects of the job hunt help him when he's sending out hundreds of applications and not even getting an interview? Thus optimizing the act of getting the interview makes more sense, at least in the moment, as opposed to passing the interview. Kidology doesn't seem to recognize this as a concern, and hyperfocuses on how to pass the job interview itself.

[@eannane8712]

He's working on his resume structure for a coding job instead of developing coding skills. She's focusing on how to have a successful career after you already get the job.

[@noahheyl3571]

All you said was really beautiful. It is so positive and healing to have a kind and well meaning woman expressing her view on this male centric blackpill/looksmax community. Men there are so negative sometimes and her view really helped put that into perspective

[@SoWhosGae]

I've "cold approached" ... just stop there. 90% of the cases it won't work even if you are Brad Pitt in his prime. Stop doing it and measuring everything by it. Make friends and socialize. The more ppl you know, the more opportunities to meet someone compatible you have. Be friggin sociable. That nowadays includes being present and interactive online too.

[@CamelCasee]

What about people who've never met before hooking up in bars?

[@porto1st]

@@CamelCasee they’re the 10%. Also it’s a lot easier to hook up when both parties are drunk. People tend to lower their standards a LOT when they’re drunk

[@CamelCasee]

@@porto1st They still never want to hook up with me drunk.

[@porto1st]

@@CamelCasee you’re just part of the 90% I guess man

[@CamelCasee]

@@porto1st Bottom 10% more like, 29 years old and never kissed a girl or done anything with one. Never had a date or gf because nobody wants me.

[@samanthaferrari5948]

Kid's patience is admirable.

[@Rig0r_M0rtis]

Dismantling the manosphere one incel at a time xD

[@EJ_Affo]

Waiting to long is also a problem tho

[@Tessy29k]

Honestly I don't have the patience for such nonsense however if she wants to be a bridge to the incel world then by all means she's doing a great job.

[@alexbohinskyi987]

@@Tessy29k who hurt you?

[@porto1st]

@@alexbohinskyi987 you don’t have to be hurt to not have the patience to hear an incel whinge about how he can’t get girls for 2 hours straight

[@marcorubboli9415]

In some ways, this interaction was very sweet. Kid was very respectful but couldn't avoid showing a bit of tenderness towards this young man who is clearly struggling. I think his worldview is quite appalling, but he sounds intelligent and articulate, I am sure life experience will help him change his perspective. He's already one step ahead of most of his peers: he's curious and willing to listen. And women, rightfully so, love this. Good luck Hiraeth

[@painunending4610]

In my experience women don't give a shit if you're curious and willing to listen

[@alas6260]

@@painunending4610 they only listen to chad

[@rcroller1972]

@@painunending4610 Probably because you said some weird incel shit dude.

[@painunending4610]

@@rcroller1972 No I don't. Why would I say that? Why would you assume that?

[@MATIPIN_Productions]

@@painunending4610 Could you elaborate a bit more on why you think that? Us women generally love feeling seen and heard, and curiosity in men is very attractive since it means they are proactive and intelectually oriented people.

[@antonmayten4927]

I really appreciate the respect, empathy and patience Kidology shows in the conversation! It's so refreshing and important. Instead of just bashing men and especially incels this conversation is about understanding the other side, make the other side understand and helping by explaining. This is great content and helping a lot!

[@temporarythoughts]

Wonderful exchange, love how you both got together from different points of view and had an open minded civil conversation. I would definitely watch more of this format.

[@skillzzz]

I really enjoy this. I'm only half way through but I'm intrigued and interested. It's interesting to hear their perspectives but I must say your thoughts on this are spot on and the way you articulate yourself is admirable. Thank you for this type of content

[@StepBroImStuck]

They are not it’s blue pilled garbage she doesn’t even believe it herself …

[@IncandescentLightbulb00]

This is an astounding conversation, I just want to say bravo to you both for having a civil discussion while having opposite opinions. We need more of that! I want to tell you a story of a guy I know who is an actor. I was hanging out with him for a few days in a very informal setting (music festival). He is very conventionally attractive. He got so laid it’s not even funny. I can see how for men who want that and aspire to be that, looking at a guy like this must be so so hard! However, I will tell you my point of view on this - first of all I didn’t find him attractive at all. I know that he’s a “chad” but that did nothing for me. I treated him like a friend and gave him some tips on how to approach women better so that he actually got laid (not just tried lol). Despite of us being at a music festival and him being such a chad he didn’t “score” the first night simply because he totally misunderstood how to behave in that particular setting. It had nothing to do with anything else! That being said, although he clearly has fun behaving like this to me it was just a bit sad. Just seems like a waste of energy tbh. What’s the point of all this? I’m obviously looking at it from a female perspective but the truth is that if a man cares at all about how a woman feels during sex then having one night stands is counterproductive. It just gives most men permission to be really inadequate. They can tell themselves that they are good but they very rarely are. Additionally, there was only one moment when I thought for a split second that my chad friend was actually truly attractive- that is when he was talking to a group of people, all strangers and he carried on with such ease, kept making jokes that were actually funny and made everyone feel really comfortable. That was when I saw why he’s an actor. He really had that quality that puts everyone at ease and it was amazing just to watch that. In my eyes that made him truly attractive, not his chad looks. I know it’s just anecdotal, and only one woman’s opinion but personally what I find most attractive in men is them being able to talk about things that I find interesting in an intelligent way and without any lecturing/preaching.

[@ree6487]

man, I wish I was this delusional

[@impposter560]

Did I hear that right? 18? Thats so young. But it makes it understandable why he is so invested in looks; everyone is at that age. Its impossible not to compare yourself to others and feel lacking. I hope he finds confidence and value in himself someday that isn't dependent on his looks, or how many girls he can 'pull'. Also, the only advice I can give to men in general when it comes to finding a partner; mentally stable women really, genuinely do want to be liked. Just having a partner that likes you, that enjoys being around you and engaging with you without it being a chore or means to an end. We want someone to Know us and also Like us, just as a person. It sounds so cliche, but its true. It seems a lot of people who looksmaxx are looking for a partner in order to achieve something, rather than be in love with a real person. No one wants to be an achievement or a goalpost. Just focus first and foremost on courting people you genuinely like, as a person. Not simply someone you find attractive. Regarding the status vs skill thing; skill/talent 100% wins out. I have been attracted to very, very few people and all of them were not conventionally attractive or 'successful'. Some weren't even very masculine. The only thing they had in common was they had a talent or skill. Not even something that made money! One could fix things properly, not just with duct tape and optimism. One guy was just good at math and had a nice smile. Another could speed-run those little wordsearch puzzles even though he thought they were silly; he'd be reading over my shoulder and find twenty words before I got one. He was just a janitor on my crew and he had crooked teeth and spit when he laughed, but damn if he wasn't the one person I've had an actual crush on in my entire life. I hope he's doing well Edit: reached the very end. You could tell he was getting a bit more frustrated and some unvarnished emotional truths were slipping, but he was actually far more respectful and articulate than I expected. Good for him. Its just he's so very young. I really felt for him when he talked about having health issues; I have a blood disease and an autoimmune disease. It really does make you feel ugly, and it can make you ACTUALLY ugly, which people who aren't sick never want to acknowledge. My current meds are making me lose my hair and have completely redistributed my body fat, which sucks. I can't say that I hope he gets exactly what he wants, because what he wants doesn't seem like it would ultimately bring him happiness. But I do really wish him the best

[@JaydenConnors]

Bunch of generic "bluepill" advice. If things were this easy everyone can get a gf.

[@pawel322]

You wrote a lot and i respect your opinion. I dont know how old you are but i am 20 years old and never had a girlfriend never kissed etc. When i walk down the street or at school women never look at me. Im starting to think this is probably my fault because i am a little overweight and havent been taking care of my appearence. I believe the thing you said about being attracted to men because of their talent or personality because judging by your comments you are older and had a lot of experience with different men and came to that conclusion. Well unfortunately this is a known trend that some blacpillers talk about the fact that when women are younger they will sleep with whatever guy they find attractive no matter how toxic or abusive he is but later on in life when they inevitably get hurt by those men they have a change of heart and reconcider their dating habits. And nobody wants to be the last to the finnish line. This scenario where if i just "focus on myself" and meet a gf at 30 when she is my first but she has been with many men before and only choose me because im "safe" and she is losing her youthfulness is honestly my biggest fear i feel terrible thinking about this. This is the reason why i feel like i have to change my looks and loose my v fast because i dont want to be that guy. I dont want to be a plan b.

[@impposter560]

​@@pawel322 Well, I am certainly older, but I am not as 'experienced' as you might think. And I won't say its unreasonable to fear being a plan b. We see it happening with the mid-30/40 women who realize being single is no longer fun and are trying to fill that gap with anyone. As for only becoming attracted to skill and personality later in life; all the examples I listed were from my teens and early twenties. I might be a outlier in that, but at least some girls are the same way. Also, women do not tend to look at any man on the street (or take care not to be caught), so don't place too much value on that. As for losing your v; there is an extreme pressure on men to 'lose it'. Women too, these days, but not quite as much. For women, being shamed for virginity is extremely recent. Only the past 40-50 years. It has almost never been that way before. I really want to say being a virgin or not isn't important (because a surprising number of women don't care if men are experienced or not), but I think thats something you have to decide for yourself. Just remember that, same as women, you have more valuable things to offer than just sex. I know things are pretty terrible for young men these days. I helped raise four boys, and if things had gone wrong for them, they could have fallen into the same crowd that so many boys and men are. They are very lucky; most are not. Thats why I write too much when I come across these topics. I want other young men to know that there are women who do see whats happening. We might disagree with the values and techniques, but we know why you are doing it. I suppose we just don't want any of you to focus too much on the wrong things and have a bad result. Or to lose hope entirely. The only thing I can offer, the only thing I've ever seen work, really is focusing on yourself as an individual, rather than yourself as a future lover. Don't rush. Settle into yourself as person. Make connections. That way even if you don't get a girlfriend until later on, in the meantime you will still have things of value in your life. I sincerely hope things turn out well for you

[@pawel322]

@@impposter560 Thank you I think you are right with almost everything you said the only fear i have with postponing having romantic relationships until later on in life is that its not really guaranteed to happen its basically a gamble. If i finnish university, find a good job, have some close friends i can be open with and then eventually find a woman yeah that would be amazing but look how many men took that route and it didnt really play out how they wanted. There are a lot of videos on youtube of 35+ year old men who have good jobs are well spoken and arent even that terrible looking saying how they have never had a relationship and they feel like at their age its basically over since most women their age are married/have kids or just find them boring because they lack social skills and confidence. After hearing you out i think i will reconsider rushing into a relationship but i for sure think i have to at least try make some female friends and pay more attention to my health and appearence because if i dont take control over my life fast enough it will slip by my hands.

[@SoWhosGae]

@@JaydenConnors Being an actually decent man isn't easy at all tho. The majority of you are NOT the nice guys you think you are and the majority of you are attracted to amd want toxic women because of your own shortcomings. Same with women. So no, actually being a decent human being so that you can have a decent relationship is not easy.

[@QuintessenceLuminescence]

25:53 - 27:27 An in-depth, emotionally intelligent analysis with a panel of varied perspectives is needed in varied YT spaces Thank you Kidology for entering these turbulent spaces with patience and graceful courage. May this help others and may it help you also.

[@trent9872]

Thom Yorke is 5'5", not 5'1". But, yeah, still quite short. I also think that most women who think they're attracted to him don't know how short he is, and might feel differently if they were standing next to him. Also, being internationally famous is a big big plus. Fame creates a kind of reality-distortion field. I'm not saying short guys have an impossible job finding dates, but it is a factor, and lots of studies involving women have shown that to be the case. I remember an old news segment where they asked women about whether they'd want to date some different guys - guys who were in right in front of them - and women were universally interested in the men who were taller than 6'0" and not interested in the 5'1" guy. The journalists tried adding other attributes to the short guy to make him attractive - like posing hypotheticals like "what if he was a millionaire entrepreneur" and women were still resistant to the idea of dating him. It was quite sad. I'm not saying height and looks are everything. I actually think blackpillers overestimate the value of height and looks to the exclusion of other important attributes. However, I also think women have a tendency to downplay the importance of looks. They'll believe and say one thing, but then do another thing.

[@Laura-zo4ue]

What a great conversation, so refreshing. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite channels!

[@leehalloway8787]

The crazy thing is that many dudes on the rating Reddit look good. Then you read their posts and think 'yikes'. Becoming as attractive as you can is great but you also need confidence, charisma, and to have an inviting life (no one is trying to be around someone who has a depressing or empty life). So many of these dudes seem sad and like they want a woman to come save them from their miserable situation. If they would fix their life first, they'd be more happy and confident which would likely attract more women.

[@buckaroobonzai2909]

I've dated a lot of women and been married once to a woman who dug gouges out of my wrist. I no longer date now. I am incapable of love at this point. Also, having kids is a huge risk today. That is life. Just prepare for the population crisis and/or the migrant crisis.

[@kgabaneleraisa4528]

This young man is every respectful & wise

[@chihirokannda7501]

There's a lot of things I don't agree with Kidology on (particularly in politics), but I think she has the views closest to me on things like relationships and life in general. I as a woman have watched a lot of red pill content out of curiosity, and while I agreed with them on many things, there were way too many underlying presumptions and opinions that I didn't. I really appreciate my reservations with these things being expressed in a nuanced way by another woman to a wider audience. Thank you for your work!

[@virtualvoid106]

I'm a gay dude and girls/women have always been pretty open to me. My understanding is limited but maybe less limited than that of straight men. What I've taken away is that most women have physical attractions, however 1.) it's for very diverse types and rarely for hypermasculinity and 2.) it doesn't mean they actually want to have sex with the person, they are just interested. I've noticed that women often tend to see a look as a character, not as a quality on some linear scale. While I'd say a guy is hot, they'd give me a full character description of why he's cute. They often find imperfections cute. Like the underdog character of Thom Yorke, I totally see the appeal, it's possible to imagine a character like that in society, in dating, in family or as a friend. However a body builder is kind of just a look without a story. Not saying this is da full truth, it's just an outsider observation! What I do see is that men (especially gay men) are much more valuing hypermasculinity and we more often see attraction as a motor for sex. We can see sex as fun, not necessarily as intimacy or bonding. I think with age and wisdom, people become genuinely less interested in looks and care about who they can have a nice time with on the long run. I've dated conventionally gorgeous guys who made me miserable, it's not worth it and never again.

[@beganitdidnt6535]

if you have to cold approach a "certain way" it never began for you

[@frumfirsttolast]

im not deep into this video but id like to add so far that appreciating yourself and your worth builds confidence and self love and this is the most important part. to remind yourself you’re good beyond your current state and that u have the ability to change/grow. this in itself is tremendously attractive to anyone or even opportunities. attraction was never based on looks more so the insinuated underlying qualities that looks “signal” (realistically theres very minimal correlation, but i think thats where many ppl get confused.) this is why no matter what looks or skills or persona you adopt you will most likely feel unfulfilled if you have low self worth i love the patience point you made for this reason! it takes time and effort *in my opinion*

[@sofi-zn7bz]

I’ll never forgive social media for making men think having personal higiene and caring in the slightest about your appearance is “looksmaxing” so therefore if you do those things you also have to follow and agree with all this redpill ideology and crazy disordered thinking. Having a good personality AND caring a bit about how you present yourself and not smelling like actual BO is ALL (and I mean this) ALL that a guy (or girl for that matter ) needs to get a fulfilling relationship in life.

[@kupeart3746]

looks maxing works only if you look max because you find joy in it and not only as a way to attract women, this also goes for pickup (flirting) and dating. because authenticity is attractive and when you're doing, wearing and being someone *you* think is beautiful rather then being some people told you women like, you are much more confident and fun to be with.

[@Idkwhatthisis551]

Looksmaxxing definitely puts a lot of emphasis on external validation which is why it's just a big cope, but I'm still gonna try it and see how far I go with it

[@devankurmitra4118]

i am 23 , lived alone in us, self sufficient 80% , was going to the gym 5x /week, have a good career prospects, work part time, put myself through college,dress nicely, have hobbies, multilingual yet my peers who lacked depth of character, life experience and were completely dependent on their parents for everything and arent even grateful for it, had multiple sexual experiences yet i have to wait till 30 yr old to have a partner wow!

[@theswagapino]

BROOTAL

[@phljawn]

Comparison, the thief of joy.

[@BlueOwlsFly]

Keep doing what you’re doing. You’re still so young and there’s need to rush anything romantic. Continue focusing on yourself. It’s challenging but cultivating a healthy and loving relationship with yourself will bring you much more joy than being in a sexual/romantic relationship. And by learning to love yourself your relationships will also improve drastically in return.

[@devankurmitra4118]

@@BlueOwlsFly I think I'm good at loving myself since I been doing that for last decade

[@Cateater123]

Why are yall so obsessed with romance 💀that's girlie af

[@InfernalPasquale]

Such a strange and sad subculture. I'm so thankful for growing up just before SM hit the world

[@sophiarivera7364]

He’s so young and yet so down on his luck. This world is cold but when you take a step back, and just engage in what you love instead of constantly yearning, you will attract that same effort and love you put into yourself and your craft/s. Best way to find love is to stop looking outward.

[@Laughing_Individual]

Please stop lying. The universe doesn't care about your solipsistic nonsense. There are winners and there are losers. What most people are afraid to admit is that you can do everything right and you'll still lose. As long as stupid people keep reproducing, the universe doesn't care.

[@mrlense2078]

At 1:53:00. Kidology if it takes you until 30yrs old to start having relationships as a man, you will have no experience whereas the women at that age will have experience and they don't want someone without the experience. Even if the young relationships don't last they still teach lessons on how to deal with people and how to manage a relationship. Even if we live in your ideal world it still won't work out for the guy. Your strategy is based on hope and getting lucky that maybe someday someone likes you which is a horrible strategy because you are putting your life in the hands of faith rather than being proactive and making sure that you attain the things you want out of life.

[@Leonx_24]

I am so glad you are having this conversation with this young man. I hope to see many more.

[@shirokokuro8681]

Wishing you all the best, Hiraeth! TL;DR Softmaxxing is fine; attractiveness varies by individual; social media isn't reliable for interpreting what the sexes want; sadly, dating apps are your best bet. While I do think there are some problems with the Looksmaxxing community--at least in extreme cases--with the incentive being placed on getting laid over getting a relationship, I do have to agree that your conception of the community is not harmful. From your experience, it seems that you have found something analogous to mentors: They have helped you feel better about the way you look, which I think is wonderful. Particularly concerning fashion, it's great that you are exploring that creative and expressive aspect of yourself. I do worry with hardmaxxing that we are venturing into territory where everyone looks the same (see East Asian beauty standards) and that the external is over-valued instead of the internal. But from what it sounds, you've been able to feel much better about yourself and that's what matters, ultimately. Moreover, I do have to say that I agree with your thought experiment. If people (man, woman, or otherwise) were presented with two copies of the exact person, one more attractive and the other less so, people would choose the one that is more attractive. The fallacy with this thought experiment, however, is that what is attractive to one person is not attractive to another. Someone might pick the guy with the dorky, nose-crinkling grin over the guy with the six pack and perfect teeth. Honestly, I think you might be surprised by how many girls would pick the former. Many of my friends have had lasting relationships with the "less attractive" guy when in their teens all they wanted were the abs and chiseled jaw. People commonly have this laundry list of what they're attracted too, and in person, those things go out the window. However, it's harder on dating apps when you have to list your physical attributes that make people instantly think, "Not for me." I really sympathize with you on that point. Dating apps boil you down, and for women who aren't as immediately attracted to guys, that makes it very hard for men to get anywhere. In contrast with this, it's imperative to not assume that social media conveys everything about what genders are and what people desire. Great examples of this are pop culture phenomena like Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray. Millions of women went nuts for fictional guys with perfect bodies who glorified the female lead to the point of stalking. In safe fictional spaces, that's fine, but I guarantee you that, in reality, these women would flip if a buff hottie snuck into their room to watch them sleep. The same extends to social media. Lots of women like having the "safe" online attention of guys. Instagram likes and flattering sexual comments do not pose a direct threat to the individual. However, the vast majority of these women do not want an offline ("unsafe") relationship with these people, even the Chads. Pregnancy scares along with fears of violence are common in the minds of women. With this contrast in mind, the differences between the safe (online) and the unsafe (offline) desires of women are not evident through social media or even dating apps. That being said, I think it is inevitable that dating apps are one of the few options for relationships after completing school. Using them is fine as long as engagement with these apps is tempered with an understanding that they don't accurately reflect genders and, more importantly, people. For instance, in Korea, Tinder is routinely used by guys just looking for a hookup, especially if you're a foreign girl. It would be wrong of me to conclude that the majority of men in Korea are that way, however. This fallacy is especially dangerous because dating apps are performative. It's like reality TV; people only show who they think people want to see, not who they actually are. Again, I'm rooting for you, Hiraeth. My heart hurt hearing you talk about your struggles with self-esteem and your medical conditions. I hope you're able to find what you're looking for out there.

[@xbabu142x]

Are dating apps not 80% men? Have to keep that in mind so you don't kill your self esteem.

[@MutantMessiah]

I think you're right that people that only focus on looks miss the other tools available to them. I do, though, think that when focusing on looks, the lookspeeps are probably right.

[@pce12345]

This guy needs to lighten up. People like people who have a sense of humour. He seems very intense. The more your relax and love yourself people will like you.

[@painunending4610]

This isn't true in my experience. I used to be very intense and hated myself but then made the changes to be more relaxed and started loving myself more People treat me the same now as they did then

[@Laughing_Individual]

Typical gaslighting npc comment.

[@rjflores438]

I am a pretty good looking guy and have had 2 long term relationships, but I have also suffered intense bouts of loneliness, self hatred and self harming episodes in my adult life, a lot caused my my percieved lack of worth to women, a lot comes from my childhood trauma but the only thing that has helped with my confidence with women is cold approaching. It makes you far more liberated and free as an individuals that you can make beautiful connections with women that otherwise would have been a stranger that didnt give a crap about you, this society is lonelier than ever, incels dont just want sex, they alos want connection, validation and to feel as though women actually see them in an emotionally and physically intimate way.

[@Deletedaccount55]

If you have to perfenced you’re good looking on a looksmaxxing video then you’re probably extremely unattractive

[@masterwerneck]

It seems to me very very unreasanoble waits that a guy with no friends or a social circle formed by few nerds meet a girlfriend througly acquanticementship, it just won't work! Cold approach and online dates would be a solution, but everyone knows even the virtue signalling women who put their gaslights here on this video, that on this kind of circunstance looks is everything.

[@new_game2589]

Outside of the surgical stuff I don't understand why looksmax gets such a stigma attached to it, call it a "glow up" and everybody's clapping. It's just the dude's version of naming the same thing, that's why we buy silly tactical soap and stuff cuz we want to make it masculine. Whether that's for fun or for ego, maybe both, I couldn't tell ya. I don't know everything about everything, so I'm just spitballing here, but is it possible that since we've painted masculinity with such broad brush and wrote "toxic" all over it that there we're developing an innate bias to automatically assign negativity to anything that sounds even remotely dudebro sounding?

[@michaelajames99]

I think the main difference is 'glowing up' for yourself vs looksmaxing to get laid. I do agree that we need to further unpack what toxic masculinity is because right now it's a bit unclear

[@new_game2589]

@@michaelajames99 I think we're quick to jump on the notion that the end goal of all these people is simply to get laid, I'd imagine it's a fair portion, but probably just as many are simply trying to increase their odds of attracting a long term partner, or other pragmatic reasons that capitalize on the Halo effect. We don't assign context or the underlying reasons for a glow up, even though they can be for the same or equally shallow reasons, such as getting a "revenge body" after a breakup. For the amount of investment some of these men put in I'd think it would be more cost effective at some point to simply hire escorts if all they wanted was to scratch an itch, there are deep underlying issues at play here and we shame these people for trying to adapt, picking the vitriolic low hanging fruit and making them the representatives of the whole.

[@SnakeTheHat]

Idk. I want to live in a world where adults who want to find sexual consenting partners can find them easily. I think just ignoring your sexual/intimacy needs till you're 30 is a hard ask

[@christianandjesse7370]

How do you make that happen? Women have been punished for being sexual. Women are still punished for being sexual. You still have men like these guys who would say that women with high body counts aren't worth shit. So how do you make free, accessible sex a thing? We need people, especially men like who particpuate in red pill shit, to stop punishing sexuality. That's the only solution.

[@michaelajames99]

​@@christianandjesse7370 I agree. If hookup culture is bad and sex work/prostitution leads to the exploitation of vulnerable women, then what is the answer. I think that it's never been about sex but about being able to acquire something when thinking of women as objects. Intimacy is different and certainly needed but it's not always sexual.

[@christianandjesse7370]

@Michaela James I agree. Because whenever they talk about what men have lost, they always talk about a time when women had no legal rights. In the 1950s, marital rape was not illegal in any state. Martial abuse was not only not penalized, but it was flat out legal, defended by the state as a right of men over their wives. They have to reference decades when girls were actively told in school "you're brains aren't as good as a man's so you're just going to be slower" to argue men lost something and are somehow struggling today

[@neverbackdown1918]

@@christianandjesse7370you’re equating not wanting to date someone as a punishment, when it’s not, since people are entitled to their preferences, no matter how problematic you think they are. Your comment also doesn’t make sense because it is male sexlessness that is on a dramatic rise, while women’s sexlessness has only gone up a little bit. It also assumes that all women would just act like men if there were no societal constraints surrounding sex, which I don’t think is true.

[@christianandjesse7370]

@Never Back down I think you misunderstood what I said. I'm saying that the issue has been historically men's desire to control women's bodies and sexuality. Today's men have to do more than just dupe a woman into marrying them and have a job. They have to maintain a personality. And when people tall about "back in xyz time men were happy and respected" they are always referring to decades when women had less legal rights to their own bodies than their partners did

[@pestyobsrvr4278]

51:42 (From a male perspective) I would’ve answered “do you know what your friend is looking for and asked what are you looking for?” I have a friend who usually successful in his cold approaches as well but what I know about my friend is he’s a fuck boy he’s not usually looking for anything long-term so he doesn’t stress how it goes, I’m not mad about cuz he and I aren’t looking for the same thing. I think Hiraeth is internalizing his experience too much but when I was 18 so did I 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@TimothyCHenderson]

Yeah, so much of this is about age. When you're 18, you think your whole life will be the same and it's hard to imagine that you can change when you're in that weird place of still being in school (college/uni or whatever), still being dependent on your elders but also trying to find your place and fit. So much of that time of your life is focused on fitting in and being like the rest, I could never imagine life as a teenager in the world of social media. When I was 18, I was chatting with rando's from all over the world online via ICQ and AIM back in the 90s. If anything, it was the playground of the socially awkward so there was no pressure to conform or be like anyone else. There was no real social media as we know it back then. The ability for kids to compare themselves to literally millions of other teenagers and adults at such a young age must really f**k with your brain.

[@borgir4458]

Hiraeth gives so much credit to looksmaxxing, however I find it more plausible that it is just the effects of puberty. He's proud to show progression photos from 2 years ago but he is literally 18 years old. We were all ugly ducklings at 16. Men especially mature later, so male attractive qualities i.e. a developed jaw, facial hair, broader bodies, etc, were something he just had to allow time for him to step into them. This pressure on young boys to be rich, tall and attractive is contradicting because they are CHILDREN and these are qualities of what MEN view as attractive. Blackpilling exacerbates this issue by making these qualities (which aren't always achievable) the sole goal, even if it's a complete facade. For lack of better term, it's rolling a shit in glitter which will not solve the root problem.

[@beeftestosterone4840]

If you’re so attracted to your 5’3 balding friend, why are you not with him or at least made your intentions known to him? Sounds like bullshit to me honestly…

[@MK_ULTRA420]

Exactly, this is just a left-wing echo chamber.

[@leoninenoble]

You never know someone's situation. What if her friend doesn't like her back, or she feels as though he might and it keeps her from making a move? What if he's not in the right place for a relationship? He could be busy, she could be busy, both could like each other but be too timid to make any advances. There are so many factors that absolutely cannot be reduced to her attraction to him being horseshit

[@WhoBlah21]

@@leoninenobleAll your what ifs are things we would criticize a man for when he doesn’t want to approach a woman he likes. I mean “what if her friend doesn’t like her back?” Men get roasted for thinking like this

[@leoninenoble]

@@WhoBlah21 Whatever your fellow men roast you for thinking is not our business or problem. I haven't heard anyone, especially not girls, express that thinking their crush doesn't like them is something embarrassing or cringe worthy. What kind of people are you surrounding yourself with if you feel judged to say that someone not liking you back is hurtful, or that you're concerned they don't?

[@ElizabethStirlingTaylor]

I'm 45 minutes into this, and already finding myself incredibly frustrated with Kid's POV regarding mens need for companionship, sex, touch etc. I wonder how many MF relationships and/or male friends she has had. I feel wholeheartedly that she's coming from a place that doesn't understand what men are or what they desire. Just the name he's chosen for himself, Hiraeth, and its meaning speaks volumes about where this guys heart is and what he's after. The fact that Kid doesn't see the issue with 1/3 of young men not having regular sex and saying just to 'be patient' is very telling and comes across as having a very limited understanding of men overall.

[@kazlesticks]

I feel like a lot of young men don't understand how intimidating cold approaching can be for women. If you know nothing about me, other than my looks, and are approaching me - that's inherently objectifying. Most women would be very wary in these circumstances, until they feel a connection is being build about them as a person, not just their looks. Men who objectify us are more likely to be unsafe. I really appreciate the empathy and listening between these two in this conversation. I do wish, however, that she encouraged him to think a little more critically about the type of women he's approaching, and why. What is he looking for in a relationship? Is he also only prioritising typically physically attractive women and not considering the humanity of women he supposedly wants to build a relationship with? At the end of the day, he still seems to consider relationships with women as being a source of competition with his male friends. Nothing more. I hope he's able to develop, build, and sustain some friendships with women to help him see us as being more than just objectified ranked assets for his ego. I'd love a follow up conversation between the two of them about this. Also would love a further unpacking of the interactions between incel culture and the pseudo-science of evolutionary psychology such as in this paper - www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/use-and-misuse-of-evolutionary-psychology-in-online-manosphere-communities-the-case-of-female-mating-strategies/19522B41CF67DFF9F66D919E1F843CCC

[@dorikin333]

Fyi men who are “platonic friends” with you also want to eventually date you lol.

[@gaymer2316]

This will probably get buried, but I was thinking that this conversation wasn’t all that productive. Kid mentions that being special or standing out in some way is what will attract women. Having some skill or personality trait. That when thinking about relationships, it’s important to focus on the long term. - side note, not everyone is talented in the skill/personality department, just like not everyone is gifted in the looks department. Some people just aren’t that exceptional and that’s okay and inevitable.- There’s also a term for this actually. “Personalitymaxxing”. Basically what it sounds like. Becoming a better person, more cultured, more skilled, charismatic, etc. The guy mentions that “no one cares” and I think that can’t be ignored. It’s genuinely hard to find someone who cares to get to know the real person inside of your body and inside of the surface of your demeanor/public personality. It’s not as simple as just “finding people who care”. He’s 18, so he’s either in highschool or his first year or so of college, and at that age you’re mostly confined to your classmates or to people in clubs on campus and things like that. There are only so many people you can meet, and while taking a more genuine (as in getting to know women in a platonic sense first) approach might give him better luck with women, there’s nothing you can do to solve the problem of “no one cares” expect try to be the one who cares, and play the numbers game. You could be the most interesting person in the room, and it’s possible to one would ever know because they might not care to find out. They might be preoccupied with friends, SOs, etc. My opinion on looksmaxxing (including personality maxxing) is that it acknowledges that fact and the goal is to increase the likelihood of someone being willing to care, as much as possible. If you’re unattractive and overweight, sure maybe you’re really interesting, but if you loose 20 pounds and start to lift, a girl might take the extra second to ask you about your hobbies, and realize “hey, this guy is pretty interesting”, rather than the alternative where you never even reach that point. I think personallymaxxing is necessary to fully reap the benefits of looksmaxxing. But for a lot of these people, the long term isn’t on their minds because the short term isn’t in sight. Why would you be thinking of dinner on Friday, when it’s Wednesday afternoon and you can’t afford to put food in your fridge? Why focus so much on cultivating your long term desirability (which most 18 year olds aren’t anywhere close to having), when you can’t even get a first date? Like I saw someone else say, these guys can’t even get a first date, how to make a relationship (that they don’t have, and can’t seem to get) last is not a major concern. Some male looksmaxxers can definitely focus too much on the “Chads” and “Stacys” of the world, but this doesn’t mean that there isn’t some merit to looksmaxxing We need to be really really honest with ourselves. Relationships often come after platonic connections, but sometimes they just don’t. I say this as a high school girl (basically in the age demographic of our incel here), I’ve never wanted to date any of my friends. I know that’s just me, and I’m pretty young and it could change, but it’s an experience and it’s genuine. I’m sharing this to say that friendships won’t always lead to relationships, and having a stellar personality won’t always lead to getting the girl of your dreams, or any girl at all, unfortunately. I mean there are people who fall in love with serial killers for goodness sake 😭 For any young guys my age reading this, I only have little advice. Which is Maybe get into skincare and shave your facial hair because trust me, it doesn’t look very good. Also don’t be a self righteous dickbag and learn to admit when you’re wrong.

[@michaelajames99]

I think that increasing your skills is about self-worth and the subsequent confidence that comes from it which is attractive. Having skills also gives you more things to talk about and may even jumpstart a conversation. Taking an extra second based on looks is a good point but seeing an objectively pretty person does not mean you want to date them or even hookup with them

[@Returntonature145]

@@michaelajames99 My dad was 7/10 and mom was like 5 in her prime.He did not have very good personality.He was bitter,angry.But mom still loved him somehow.I did not directly ask her if she is attracted to dad because of looks or not but i have seen her treating tall guys with wider jaws respectfully and more nicely.I saw my dads young picturees when i was not born.I found out he was lot better looking than i am and he was slightly taller than me too.And his long eyelashes,slim nose,the typical chad jawline,he had these qualities.He also had hunter eyes.i think she was more into dads looks and status than anything.But i am sure if i asked her,she would say looks don't matter to her.I can read womens brain very well.

[@geraldthebusdriver3491]

I have tried month after month and year after year since I was 13 and have found nobody except one person at the beginning of this year 2023 that liked me for a week then never liked me again. People don't understand how damaging to your life expectancy, mentality and esteem that all of this does to you when you've gone through all of that, yes I'm only 20 now but people don't understand how fast life goes by. Like I felt like it was just yesterday that I was 13 now I am 20 And you know what... ITS NOT FAIR

[@PossibleBat]

Please don’t let this content consume you, because it can be very depressing and triggering, hope you keep your mental health in check ❤ take care Kidology

[@Cloudyvi]

Thank you kidology! I think this conversation was very interesting, because we don't often give real oppotunities to young men to express their feelings. You were a great big sister! To Hiraeth: Today's society is very different from the one I grew up in, though I'm only twice your age. At that time, in my country, people didn't use to date so early. I got my first boyfriend at 20, and the big majority of my classmates were starting dating at the University. So I don't think you need to rush. Younger girls will indeed go for looks, height and confidence, but they are still immature. If you listen to some wiser older men, they would tell you that if you work on yourself (status and charisma matter more than look), you will find the right person, the one that will love you for all the right reasons. I would also suggest to do some sports rather than just exercise (be on teams, practice to aim at some athletic performances, because over-muscular physiques are not that attractive either to women). In this day and age, rather than rushing to get a partner, I would worry more about getting hurt, because the chances are a lot higher, since there is no more accountability on both sides. The people I dated before settling down might not have been the right ones, but they were genuinely good people.

[@Malik_Hoff]

Kidology is on point with her argument. Great points.

[@eleccy]

I honestly felt that you weren't really taking on board what he said in the same way as he was taking on board what you said. It felt like you would immediately rush to invalidate or dismiss his concerns - 36:20 is the primary example of this. He explains the data as he sees it, and you seem taken aback, and then say "why does it matter?", and the tone was one of dismissal I think. This is the classic "it's not happening, ok it is happening but it doesn't matter" dialogue tree, and is very noticeable to me for its facile nature.

[@RodaRora]

I don't get why the mall is such a popular choice for these guys. I wasn't approached as often in clubs or parties (literally THE places for socializing) as shopping centers. It was always so weird and awkward and out of the blue, I never got into any of it. +idk about anybody else but me and people I know don't go there to sit around but to get or take care of something, sometimes to meet up with someone because it's a convenient place and leave

[@beewest5704]

Had a guy follow me around the mall till the securities threw him out. Met him years later & he said he was just trying to get the courage to talk to me. It did not occur to him how sus a man following a women by herself from shop to shop at a mall is.

[@newperson9662]

In clubs and parties you only want the hottest and tallest guys to approach you. It is an intimidating place to be in for men.

[@RodaRora]

@@newperson9662 Do I? :p It's much better than a mall or a park. It's expected that you will talk to people at these places, anywhere else girls don't think of you as a potential date but a threat first. Awful things happen in broad daylight way too often. I get being intimidated to chat someone up but even I (a certified coward) would talk to strangers after a few shots of liquid courage lol. If you aren't a creep about it (intense staring/weird comments/following a girl around/bringing her a drink instead of getting it with her at the bar) then the worst case scenario a girl will say ''thanks but no thanks'' and that's it. It's a nice thing to have someone be interested in you, so there's no need to be rude. It's not high school and a normal adult-ass women will not laugh in your face around her friends for being nice. If anybody acts like that then congratulations, because you just avoided a toxic, immature person. Girls really aren't as picky as you think- that is unless you yourself are very picky. A 9/10 Insta model will most likely not be interested in average looking AND average salary guy.

[@newperson9662]

@@RodaRora You need to stop lying and gaslighting men. Women who are 3s and 4s dont want to get approached by guys who are 4s and 5's in bars and clubs. They go there to flirt and hook up iwth 8s

[@RodaRora]

@@newperson9662 woah there, learnt some big words recently, eh? I am sorry you're frustrated but don't take it out on me for trying to give you some insight. I am not claiming I know what men think because that's impossible, just like you will never know what women think, so maybe it's you that should quit pushing your ideas on others. (+you really think that 8s (guys) will hook up with 3s? I'm starting to get the feeling that you're not old enough to get into a club...) You can feel however you want, but being stubborn and hateful is only going to keep you miserable. Cheers

[@elucified]

56:43 but like Kidology's whole point is like.. how long would that relationship last though?? like that's why looksmaxxing is a short-term goal at best. If you want a fling, hookup, maybe looksmaxxing is for you but if you want a relationship, one with family and kids, looksmaxxing doesn't prepare you for that. An example I've said to friends before is like this: If I've been in an accident and I'm now in the hospital bed for a few days, bro I don't give a flying FUCK what you look like, but I do care that you're a caring person, able to think ahead and plan what to do to adequately make sure I'm comfortably and happily taken care of. I would hope you also expect that of me as well if it were you in the accident and not I. Things like are you going to plan small trips back home to make healthy, homecooked food because hospital food is not the greatest? Are you going to bring my favourite plushie? Are you going to calm my worries about possibly dying (assuming the accident is not major enough to result that and thus is just anxious feelings)? These are thoughts one can learn how to think, but you gotta look past the face-value of "looks." Everything you learn from looksmaxxing will not prepare you for that, guaranteed.

[@Name..........]

Looksmaxing is just taking care of yourself, you think brushing your teeth. Fixing your hair properly is a temporary short term thing?

[@cloelles]

A great listen. This young man will do well in life, very sharp, intelligent and articulate. Many fully grown adult men cannot be this honest and vulnerable about themselves, neither women. 👏 Looks can only take you so far... I think we will all learn that lesson in life, I certainly have. Yes the initial attraction is based on looks but that alone fades away very very quickly...Once you know a bit more about a person the scales start to sway on the side of personality. There are many people that I found attractive when I met them but their physique no longer interested me when I found out how boring and one dimentional they were. On the other hand men that I didn't find physically attractive first almost morphed infront of my eyes into very attractive men once I got to know them. Far beyond the "good looking" ones previously mentioned. The same has happened other way around. I was pretty when I was young but I always felt that men only like me because of my looks, not because of who I am. Or at least.. I could never be sure.. But once my looks fades and I didn't get attention from men anymore, the moments when I did get attention were after a man got to know me and the way they looked at me switched like a light bulb. That feeling is so incredibly satisfying, to know that somebody finds you attractive because of who you are as a person, not because of what you look like.🤷‍♀️

[@blackraven6049]

"That feeling is so incredibly satisfying, to know that somebody finds you attractive because of who you are as a person, not because of what you look like" I am sure it is, unfortunately many of us undesirable men will never experience it. Easy to state, easy to accept the objective reality, very very difficult to come to terms with the fact that I was just born lesser and there really isn't much I can do about it (I am 5'6"...I think that suffices as an explanation with getting into the weeds). If you were good looking when you were young, you're still likely good looking for your age range as you didn't get uglier, you just aged. Uglier than yourself when you were young, but not ugly as the uglies from when you are young are uglies now and because of age, worse. You already meet the looks threshold and I am sure the men making you feel butterflies now do too. Plus you're a woman, most men find most women attractive, but not the other way around. I don't think it changes much as women age because why would it? Why would previously beautiful women who have proof that they are beautiful want or be satisfied with someone who clearly isn't? She won't. I am not blaming women as the guy in the video highlighted if 2 guys were the exact same in every regard and one was short and ugly (let's use me for instance) and the other was tall and attractive (evidently, not me) how is it logical that any woman would prefer me? Even though this is technically denigrating me, even I am aware that the other guy is better than me and as such he will get picked. I don't even need to ponder this long and neither would anyone who accepts reality no matter how bleak. Let's not deny objective reality.

[@cloelles]

I think you missed the point. I was talking about a situation where a person did NOT find me attractive before and it was obvious. After getting to know me they did. So in essence they were impressed about the "inner" me. In real life there is never a situation where there is an identical person to myself personalitywise + more attractive getting to know the same people I do. Thinking in those terms is self destructive, thinking that you will never be good enough. You are only shooting yourself in the leg with that no matter how "logical" it is. It is better to not be objectively logical what comes to your looks and personality, never compare yourself to others. People who love themselves and have great self esteem are always more attractive than people who feel sorry for themselves, that is an unfortunate fact. I understand that the uglier a person is the more difficult it is to impress a person solely with personality / "inner" self to the extent that they would want to be intimate but I still think it is possible. There are examples of that all around. Take a look at an average couple. They really aren´t that great looking most of the time, neither of them. And still they found each other. I think that people who find that they don´t get a partner perhaps are trying to aim too high and are actually being too superficial themselves? If the objective fact is that people usually don´t pair with a person who is above their market value so to speak then have you approached a girl that is at your own level or below? And if the answer is no, why not? @@blackraven6049

[@cloelles]

An important point that I have discovered is that a person´s own attitude and emotional state plays a huge role when dating, bigger than looks. I was single for a long time and was dating a lot. I did not seem to get lucky even though I was pretty. I realized later that the reason was my own emotional state that was oozing from my pores and was obvious from the first minute a person met me. I was depressed, felt like shit about myself and I was absolutely desperate to find a partner. The desperation really shows to others no matter how much you try to hide it. It turns people off. I also dated / hooked up with men who were like that and it was very unattractive. That´s why it´s better to take a pause in actively looking for a partner and concentrate on other things in life. Kidology´s advice is perfect: find an interest/craft, put your focus there and that will give some perspective that the dating mess isn´t that important anyway. If you then sometimes give it a go, you will have a more balanced zen attitude about it and people will notice it. Also in time you may find friends in the field of your interest, even a partner. A partner that was a friend first and didn´t pick you out for your looks. In real life people pair very randomly and it is rarey based solely on looks. I have another story when I started being interested in a man who was absolutely below my so called market value. He was way shorter and chubby. I would never have looked at him twice in a typical dating scene tinder/club etc. When I spent time with this man with other people (work related) I realized he is extremely funny. So funny that I found myself wanting to spend as much time with him as possible and started seeing him also physically attractive. I can see that we would have possibly become an item or at least dated if he didn´t end up with somebody else before I got to make a move. The dating market (bars / cubs / dating apps) is brutal and VERY superficial. It is waaayyyy easier to find a partner from some another arena: work, hobby, through mutual friends. 🤷‍♀

[@viktorcordyceps1978]

I’m autistic, have ADHD, am 5’6, 110lbs soaking wet, I’m far from what would be considered “masculine” in my looks, presentation, personality, style or interests but I get lots of attention from women. I have a developed personality, hobbies, interests, personal style and know how to be polite, courteous and have engaging conversations. I engage in communities of people with similar passions, hobbies and interests and that’s where I meet a lot of the women who are interested in me. I prioritize friendship and getting to know people on a personal platonic level, I need a real connection with someone and to understand who they are inside before I can know whether I’m attracted to them on a deeper level. So for anybody doubting what she’s saying who needs to hear it from a man to believe it, she’s correct. It’s really not about looking a specific way, that will only get you so far. The kind of energy you put into the world and the way you interact with it and the people around you is so much more important. The people I know who get the most attention from others are the people who aren’t what is considered “conventionally attractive” and developed their personality rather than relying on their looks.

[@viktorcordyceps1978]

I’ve also been in multiple long term relationships and am in one currently, the most vital thing in the long run is having good communication skills and the ability to approach problems together, with empathy.

[@HiCenjoyer]

No you dont

[@herlan-xm6wn]

I agree with Kid that developing skills and being patient is really important, but I would also argue that improving your looks is a skill as well and that people are able to discover more about themselves as they are going through their journeys of of self improvement when it comes to their looks. Looksmaxxing I feel like is pathway like any other to rediscovering who you are and what your style is. I also think that in the context of cold approaching, looks do matter more than organically getting to know people through communities and groups and hobbies. I would challenge Hiraeth to join a group or any type of class like social dancing for example, in which it much easier to form connections through a shared hobby and as people get to know each other, looks are become less important. Looksmaxxing should also be a complimentary thing to other skills you are developing already in your life and I think the name Looksmaxxing is kinda corny, instead it should something like self improvement in terms of looks😅. I don’t think Looksmaxxing is the most important thing guys should be worried about but I understand that if guys can’t even get a date, they won’t be worried about how to maintain a relationship for example because in theory, how can you worry about maintaining a relationship if you can’t even get past the initial interaction. I do think you can improve on both of these things at the same time but for that to happen you have to get yourself out there and try new hobbies and communities and interact with people more, maybe try on building friendships first without the intention on looking for a relationship and the relationship will come eventually.

[@user-yh1tx6bf1f]

It’s more that looksmaxing comes from and unhealthy desire to change stemmed in self hatred. Self-improvement should take the form of self-care

[@alexc7910]

You don't need to be a pickup artist unless you want multiple hookups with strangers and stds, that is why anything related to PUA is rightfully antagonised

[@brendanmcgeown7043]

Its very easy for a relatively attractive girl to say that its about more than physical attractiveness. Even before you went through your "softmaxing" journey and began to be treated better by men, men still found you attractive and or wanted to be with you. As someone who is fortunate enough to be relatively intelligent in great shape and good looking within some circles. Looks and status does make a huge difference and is becoming much more important in the Tinder age. Ofc men should develope their personalities, careers, skillsets, but physique, grooming, style and "looks" are kinda vital if you want to be with a girl who is anywhere near your level before you are 30. im 35 btw

[@dennis6883]

Thank you for not using the spinning star, this is so much better

[@jes5651]

When you make well-intentioned goals and plans for developing a skill and/or your personhood, a lot of the time you’ll feel good about yourself and be better motivated to start taking care of yourself. When this sort of labor is grounded in self-love; then it’s called, “maintenance.” The process of devoting yourself to something, having the discipline to achieve your goals, and maintaining standards that you’ve made by you and for you is what is attractive. Social media is so damaging to all of our perceptions of reality and it’s sad that we’re the first group of people to ever experience the full extent of its ramifications.

[@magusofthemoon]

Looksmaxxing sounds like dude playing the new Path of Exile Meta.

[@iurivanastacio3081]

"just wait the next patch bro"