Killing time during the Trojan War with Ajax and Achilles | Curator's Corner S5 Ep10

When you think about the Trojan War (which we know you do a lot), you probably think about the great fight between Achilles and Hektor or maybe the MASSIVE wooden horse the Greeks used to finally defeat the Trojans after 10 long years of war. However, we're guessing what you DON'T think of is the Greek heroes Ajax and Achilles hunched over a tiny game of dice. Curator Victoria Donnellan is going to change that for you with a black figure amphora.
Discover more about the myth of the Trojan War in the BP exhibition Troy: myth and reality from 21 November 2019 - 8 March 2020. Book tickets here: tiny.cc/v8qafz
Supported by BP
#CuratorsCorner #ClashOfTheDicers #Troy

[@britishmuseum]

For all you lovely people asking for 'what's on the back of the pot?!!!' We made a little extra episode all about it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWGcp5iQmbRgp9k To find out more about the Troy exhibition here's a link: tiny.cc/v8qafz

[@JEMurl]

😰So pot like this showing these two very kind of masculine perfect heroes" (pauses,licks lips) "and uh but......." 🤤

[@0MVR_0]

Achilles: "Go damn it, it's your move!"

[@primal2020]

i like to think that achilles is talking smack and ajax is just really shitty at chess

[@Giorg189]

That or, Ajax taking a long time to make a move and Achilles saying: "Come on already!".

[@galdrinthe3rd]

Achilles would go and sulk in his tent if he lost--possibly for a really long time.

[@HO-bndk]

Ajax: Ok, ok. No need to be such a heel about it!

[@EIixir]

The enthusiasm of the curators for their chosen subject is kinda infectious. :)

[@shadowraith1]

Thank you. Hard to believe how well that amphora survived 2500+ years.👍

[@stephengrahn9361]

I really like all the curators.

[@EleanorPeterson]

Aww, please don't get your hopes up too high, Stephen. I see lots of wedding rings in these videos. I think any of the ladies not already married to an actual husband will be even more committed to their chosen careers as curators. No time for a KZbin romance... I'm still single, though! Fancy a pie and a pint, mate? ;-)

[@VictorRochaGaming]

@@EleanorPeterson Ladies? We only have eyes for Irving Finkel.

[@mikepette4422]

@@EleanorPeterson If stephan turns you down its likely because all the curators are very jealous and don't want him dating you :P

[@Sam-eu9go]

I agree, I really like Vicky's enthusiasm about her big jugs.

[@jamesmmachell9162]

@@Sam-eu9go I also like how she presents her jugs

[@3gunslingers]

Really interesting topic But COME ON, you ave to show us the back of the vase, too!

[@angelahudson1568]

Agreed

[@RaduB.]

Right.

[@joedavis4150]

Agreed

[@aboxofphotons]

There is no back to the vase, its just a void of nothingness.

[@britishmuseum]

You will be a very happy bunny on Thursday 🏺

[@Caerigna]

In modern terms it's like having a Star Wars decorated coffee container depicting Luke and Chewy playing holochess, but over time having lost episode IV so no one knows what's being referenced.

[@ZiddersRooFurry]

Future historians are going to be so confused.

[@blackmichael75]

No it isn't, because people do know what's being referenced. Their names are written on the amphora.

[@Caerigna]

@@Alexeon exactly

[@scottgoodman8993]

Perhaps Babe Ruth playing checkers with Mickey Mantle?

[@Ezullof]

It remains to be seen whether Star Wars will remain a cultural reference for as long as the Trojan cycle, or even just for a century. I think we could make a better comparison with Mobby Dick, Les Misérables or another work that is already a bit old but still considered a classic and used in schools.

[@japeking1]

No way could I have been so relaxed with a 2,500 year old pot just standing there on its quite narrow base. Well done...interesting and scary.

[@echoplots8058]

Being relaxed next to ancient artifacts on narrow bases is a lifestyle.

[@elainegibson320]

Yea I was watching as she pointed to parts and thought gee, one bump and that amazing piece of history is gone.

[@pipe2devnull]

I can't imagine anything of mine lasting as long as that vase. Maybe a garden gnome.

[@rhijulbec1]

😂 Love the comment 😂

[@jakedee4117]

Earth God totems placed by the British in their gardens to ensure blessings on the vegetables and cast out the green fly and weevils.

[@wfcoaker1398]

Every piece of plastic cutlery you have ever used. It's interesting, to me at least, to consider that the things I value will probably be all gone within a century or two, but the plastic crap I couldn't be bothered about will probably last for millennia. The daguerrotype of my great grandmother? Gone. The plastic fork I ate my fried chicken with last night? It'll probably end up in some collection of ancient artifacts.

[@Tsumami__]

Maybe an archaeologist in the future will excavate your garden gnome and confuse him for one of our deities.

[@azureprophet]

If you were to make a bunch of ceramic items and then bury them people would maybe find one of them and something you made would last that long. Ceramic items are essentially stones and therefore last for geological timescales.

[@MartinAhlman]

Thank you for this, it's so amazing to learn from the wonderful curators of British Museum, you are all fantastic and I love you all.

[@SandraNelson063]

I took my BA in Classical Studies a million yrs ago. But I can remember hauling myself into class for the 8:30 am to 10:00 am class on Greek art. And arriving all bushy tailed and eager. And in the next semester, staying for the 7:30 pm to 9:00 pm follow up class, the part 2 of the first semester class. And somehow, I would persevere! I loved it. Here was a civilization that hadn't invented the space shuttle, but had such a profound appreciation for beauty and form. And this piece is an example of why I kept myself awake. Like the Nightwish song says, I shudder before the beautiful.

[@clydecessna737]

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

[@SolidRollin]

I could watch these all day. Thanks.

[@RichMitch]

Nice weave

[@germantennesseean8438]

Watching these videos makes me reevaluate my academic choices . I originally wanted to study something history related when I was younger . ( I sound like an old lady haha ) I chose economics instead as a career path due to financial reasons but the older I get the more I value pursuing my passions rather than financial goals . Oh well . Anyways , thank you for the series . I admire what you are doing .

[@JoeMenjivar]

The rendering of Achilles' extended hand is really wonderful to me, I can't stop looking at it.

[@jamiel6005]

It’s so upsetting that we lost so much poetry to time, but it’s beautiful how lucky we are to have the whole Iliad and Odyssey. I often wonder how different culture may be if someone had simply misplaced some manuscript, or knocked over a candle, etc.

[@TheSuzberry]

Wonderful visit with an interesting curator. Another angle at which to see history. Thanks.

[@robertcochran7103]

Thank you for creating this. I spent some time learning about the Trojan War, since I knew nothing of it. I also started researching what Greek amphorae are and how they were made and used, and I understand better now the context of this one being made for a funerary purpose. My knowledge of Greek mythology is very small at best. It has improved thanks to your video.

[@peternakitch4167]

Great video thank you. I have read the Iliad and the Oddessy, however, artifacts like this bring it all alive.

[@WillaLamour]

This is magnificent. Thank you for this.

[@DavidMaurand]

my jaw is bruised where it hit the floor - amazing

[@stephennellins3127]

All the curators are fantastic and have so much energy on the subject they cover..I love the classical world and Greek mythology and could listen to this lady all day 👍

[@suecox2308]

That was fascinating--thank you for adding depth and texture to the surface of the art.

[@josharples4078]

I love looking at Greek painted pottery and you draw attention to lots of facets - like how the spear and the shields point to the handles and make a good 'fit'. Or how the protagonists are lining up for their own battle in a lull during the Trojan War. Thank you. Bring us more of your clever thoughts and observations.

[@user-td9qs4vm8q]

I really like all the curators.. I could watch these all day. Thanks..

[@larsfinlay7325]

This is so cool! What an incredible story, what a great piece, and what a great curator! Thanks!

[@MrTorleon]

Thank you Victoria, your knowledge and understanding of the Trojan War, and of Greek pottery is impressive, and I thoroughly enjoyed watching this fascinating video. Reading Greek history as a Greats Scholar ( oh, over fifty years ago now ) I criss- crossed Greece and Italy many times and have appreciated Greek pottery close up on many occasions - and one never fails to be astonished by the beauty and skill of those ancient craftsmen. Very, very well done indeed :)

[@SpottedBullet]

Thanks, I appreciate these informative videos!

[@rjminshull14]

Great, very enjoyable 10 minutes!

[@gordonmarshall7743]

I really enjoy these vids. Thank you.

[@mikepette4422]

I love it when all the curators talk about the historical sauces ! I'm sure we'd love a cooking show about all those sauces some day 😁

[@dannyrasmussen4988]

Vicky Donnellan's aproach to the vase is great and she is a brilliant mediator. It was a pure joy to watch the video. I certainly did not feel like killing time whilst watching it.

[@reneeugrin7037]

Thank you. I enjoyed this very much, as it reminded me of one of my favorite art history projects for the young people I was teaching in the mid 2000's. With paper they cut out the shape of the vase, painted designs and added their current heroes. At that time they had quite a choice from the Harry Potter series, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, they were intrigued and were drawn into relating to the ancient folk. Thanks again.

[@velvetvioletta]

Cool idea, I kind of want to do that myself now. Except I have this left over clay that needs using for something before it dries out so maybe I'll make an actual pot and paint it. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@reneeugrin7037]

@@velvetvioletta Thank you, that's the best part of teaching, inspiring others :).

[@jeremyknifley]

I think it would be so awesome to talk about these historical pieces and be around proof of history everyday. Well done to all curators!

[@rs120]

Beautiful storytelling by this beautiful curator.. Cheers

[@steviejd5803]

I loved it! Thank you for your time.

[@chrishewitt4220]

Fascinating and really useful for Ancient HIstory students in NSW studying the Trojan War. Thank you.

[@britishmuseum]

There will be a lot more Troy focused videos in the coming months hopefully they will also be helpful. If you could, let us know how your students find them.

[@loubeau9672]

Thank you for this entertaining and informative bit. While wearing the Exekias version of this vase as a tattoo on my upper arm, I never knew about the different interpretations and their varying artistic choices.

[@Alanoffer]

What an incredible price of work , it’s literally a work of art

[@Terri_MacKay]

Could the fact that they are both in their armour and armed, even in a moment of leisure, indicate that, as warriors, they were always prepared to fight?

[@johnshoosmith]

That was absolutely absorbing. Thank you!

[@Moto_Medics]

I’ve never seen one of these up close the crisp detail is insane

[@bacul165]

I just came across this video again and I would like to say that this vase was one of the last great things I got to see this year, on a short holiday trip back in February... I'm German; with covid and brexit, who knows when I get another chance to visit!

[@enricobianchessi6123]

I find this video as the channel in general a fascinating and effective way to promote the museum activity and at the same time also a strong cultural dissemination tool. Thanks for that and congratulations !

[@kimworkman2425]

Excellent video. Filled in the story of troy for me

[@paulspice4717]

Most amazing is that it survived without being broken so such a long time!

[@ms1021128]

Beautiful curator, beautiful presentation

[@elainegibson320]

Cool, feel like I"m back at uni learning all this but just a nice snippet insteaf of hours of lectures. Like to see more of Greek vases and analysis.

[@reluginbuhl]

Lovely! Very interesting. Thank you :)

[@scott49140]

youve helped me understand this part of the trojan war a bit more clearly, i had heard of it through learning about the story and the statues at the vatican museum through youtube of the king ajax the torso statue, but i couldnt quite put all the parts together

[@brianheffernan8982]

That was an excellent video. Thank you.

[@joeldb]

The helmets also give an impression of the inner thoughts at work while playing a game of strategy.

[@norrieblackeby1041]

How interesting! Thank you very much! Love it.

[@anabelzr]

💚💚💚 Well explained! Thank you!

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

I found that exciting. I don't think that I'll be coming to see the exhibition. But if I did I would like to have lunch with you and show you a couple of items I received long ago! Better yet come to Vegas then we could talk.

[@sebolddaniel]

When I lived in Greece thirty odd years ago while in the US Navy I had seen a picture of one of these vases with the exact same scene, only much richer in color. I couldn't find the vase in the Greece National Museum in Athens and traveled to museums all over mainland Greece and the Peloponnese. I never found it in Greece. I found a really gorgeous one, though, in the Vatican Museum in Rome

[@HydroMaester]

Great video! thanks!

[@wendyballew3346]

This is so awesome.

[@AluminumBird]

Wonderful. Thank you

[@Travelin2Wit]

An interesting presentation thank you.

[@keissetje]

The next time I visit the British Museum, I'll be there for the amazingly charming curators you guys seem to attract. You guys better make sure they're all still there then!

[@inessamaria2428]

Great topic

[@tonobe09]

Troy is the 2020's topic!

[@webbzeit]

Fascinating.

[@welshpete12]

It's like an ancient photograph of two solders resting in camp. Playing a game to pass the time, after their evening meal . A thought has just struck me . To get the pattern to fit exactly on the base of the vase . The artist would have to used mathematics to get it to fit, just right all the way round !

[@anne-marienordin7636]

Thank you!🌹

[@Insectoid_]

Wow. How things like that have survived in such beautiful condition is amazing. Currently watching Troy fall of a city on Netflix. Very interesting

[@Insectoid_]

Upgrayedd Netflix is great.

[@shelbybrown8312]

Spelled with 2 Ds for a double dose Lmao

[@Shcreamingreen]

Obvious troll

[@mecho68]

Perfect lecture , thank you , I will follow British Museum channel videos .

[@telemachus53]

A bit off topic but: I missed the BM's exhibition of Troy due to Covid falling right in the middle. I'm sure there were others too. Is there any chance that the exhibit, or part if will return in better times? Thanks, Jon

[@Nyctophora]

Thank you!

[@susanhepburn6040]

Thank you very much.

[@ancientmariner7473]

Apologies if these were answered ..had spot of bother with the film jumping forwards... but I'm intrigued as to what the warriors are wearing over their throats and around the eyes. Was this mask part of the helmet system? And leather stock to protect the throat from a blade slash? Why would Ajax and Achilles wear full fighting Order whilst playing a board game? Helmets ready to drop in place? For show? Or were they on stand too?

[@Ezullof]

I don't see anything over their throats but hair, and there's nothing around their eyes. Ajax and Achilles are represented as warriors because that's what they are. It helps to identify them, just like how gods are represented with their attributes.

[@CanalTremocos]

@@Ezullof This reminds me of an awesome carving of two bronze age warriors duelling. So no one mistakes them for some blokes the artist had them holding their horses' leads. Didn't they have trees back in bronze age Europe?

[@jccusell]

Wet or dry goods. Amazing...

[@anitya7787]

Great video! Can you please explain why both the warriors seem to be carrying multiple (at least two) spears? I have always seen, for example, the Hoplite warrior carrying one spear only. Thanks.

[@legalvampire8136]

Perhaps because they are described in Homer's Iliad both throwing spears like javelins and using them as a hand held stabbing weapon. Possibly the first spear would have been thrown at an enemy before he came into stabbing range, and if that did not kill him the second spear would be used in closer combat

[@JohnyG29]

They carried multiple spears.

[@JohnnyBlaze5100]

❤beautiful accent, beautiful story

[@josefx1389]

What is the name of the lost poem that only survives in summaries? The Ciprio? Kiprio? I listened to that part and searched but was unable to find anything. And thanks for the video!

[@britishmuseum]

The Cypria. Sorry for the confusion, KZbin defaults to the auto captions unless you unpublish them and we forgot to do that.

[@josefx1389]

​@@britishmuseum Thank you so much!

[@aaronjaben7913]

that was great!

[@cornellwaters9089]

🏺 Thank You!

[@chegeny]

Beautiful amphora and very instructive. I had no idea of how they were created.

[@JohnyG29]

I'd give anything to be able to read the lost poems of the Epic Cycle...

[@aureliendevernon3057]

Very good

[@masteryap3169]

We'll done! The "Trojan War" is one of the greatest epics of Western Civilization. It will be told and retold for generations to come.

[@ONLYTHEGOODSTUFF]

Maybe it's depicting a moment between the two heroes in Elysium where they found peace.

[@AMorgan57]

Great title, killing time.

[@danielgreen2788]

why did you cut her telling of the Trojan war? i was listening!

[@martynnotman3467]

Taking me back to my classics a level! I still have the Boardman book on Athenian Black figure somewhere!

[@caravaggiosaccomplice7841]

Is Troy definitely at Hisarlik? I so want to visit Greece and Turkey with a copy of the Iliad to read. A visit to the British Museum first me thinks.

[@stardust5379]

I'm interested to see if you have pottery featuring women in a sacred context. Priestesses such as Myrrhine, Lysimache and the Pythia at Delphi. Will also be looking out for pendant semi-circular and circular pottery of the proto- geometric and geometric periods. Would be nice to see a wire-bird kotylai.

[@jeffreyrobinson3555]

Every one dies. They died being know as the best of the lot. They died sword in hand. I doubt any of the Greeks who looked at these pots thought the ending of the story was a sad ending. The Greek sad ending is Jason. An old man crushed while sleeping under the rotted beak of his old ship. And it falls off and crushes him. No heroic death for Jason

[@osorkonstargazer]

Do we know anything about the board game that is being depicted on the vases other that they used dice?

[@sparky6086]

There's a good chance, that whatever game it is, it either still exists or has a modern analog. Not nearly as far back as Troy, but I recall reading, that backgammon, just as we play it today, was popular among Roman soldiers. There's a British Museum Curator, Irving Finkel, who handles ancient Sumerian stuff, who also knows cuneiform. He discusses on some of his Curator's Corner episodes, ancient board games, which date long before the Trojan War, which bear a strong resemblance to modern board games. It's amazing how much things change, but still stay the same, throughout Human history, especially when it comes to Human nature. In this case, attacking boredom by killing time!

[@censusgary]

Of arms and the man I sing ...

[@alienalchemist]

4:30 BOI👌🔫💯🔥

[@las10plagas]

now I have to list to *achilles last stand* =)

[@Smason432]

Lest we forget the Trojan war

[@Gizmomadug]

Achilles was left handed. They were sitting on their sea chests. Board games were universal before TV and the internet. Or were they dividing spoils on an exchequer?

[@redneckzen]

Have to disagree that their being armed suggests that they would be at each other's throats should one not play the game fairly. To me it's obvious that these two warriors are simply waiting to be called into action, killing time as you said in your title. I've seen it countless times, in both peace and wartime, in our military and those of other nations; it's the universal mission called "Hurry up and wait." Nowadays young soldiers use their mobile phones and Play Stations to do the same thing. Wouldn't that be an interesting scene on the front of an amphora? Perhaps on the back they'd show the troops washing their humvees. lol Anywhoooo ... from my unprofessional knowledge about the relationship between Ajax and Achilles, they might spar competitively or trade blows or wrestle, but not take up deadly arms against one another. Ajax's love for Achilles was too deep; look at how he died. At least that's my opinion. I have the tourist version purchased from a shop in Athens for about $35. It's one of my favorite pieces, along with a plate depicting Ajax carrying the mortally wounded Achilles over his shoulder. It reminds me of all soldiers who suffer in war ... "leave no man behind." Anyway, good show. Thanks for sharing this wonderful piece. Much obliged.

[@dannyrasmussen4988]

Spot on. They are having a break from the war, but are ready to go if they should be attacked.

[@disappearintothesea]

1000 years from now: this is something they used to communicate with each other call a cellular phone, iPhone brand to be exact, that is full of images of what we now, just discovered through the book of instagram literature, are called selfies.

[@klausbrinck2137]

The Ilias (Troyan War by Homer) was the first book to have protagonists, instead of an endless depiction of a sequensce of events, where persons didn´t play any role, what has been literature till then!!!

[@HerbertLandei]

The Epic of Gilgamesh has protagonists, too.

[@klausbrinck2137]

@@HerbertLandei Not true, this epic has events, where the protagonists serve the plot, and not the other way around. It´s a literature science thing, most people won´t care, still it is cruisial, for how the perception of the world changed between earlier civilisations and the Greeks.

[@j0nnyism]

It would be an apt urn for a young man who maybe died in battle

[@houmamkitet9555]

I would have loved to see the other side

[@chadlee1057]

B back running out of writing Mordor Stihl for instant insanta