KingdomCraft: Why I'm not Methodist

[@vinxit]

I'm a Methodist, and thank you for being fair to the common quip of equating liberalism and Methodism. Where I am, the Methodist church is, by God's grace, still very much conservative and is leading the charge in many efforts to resist the spread of liberalism. To elaborate more on the doctrine of entire sanctification ("ES"), yes you're right it does teach that it is a state where one is cleansed from sin, but one should take care to read Wesley's definition of sin (which he defines strictly as having an element of voluntariness (contra what we would commonly call sin eg. "through negligence" and "through weakness", which he uses other terms for such as transgression). ES is a state where the heart is so filled with love for God that there is nothing "contrary to love" (which would include no intention to sin) BUT Wesley is also clear that 1) One who is in that state can still (what we commonly call) sin (he terms it, for example, "liable to mistake" and/or "ignorance"), this nature to "mistake" sticks with us until we die, and "Every such mistake, were it not for the blood of atonement, would expose us to eternal damnation" (observe how this would be what many today would refer to as 'sin', which damns us); and 2) This state of ES can be forfeited (i.e. it's not permanent) Wesley talks about entire sanctification in many places, but for those interested, a good starting point might be Wesley's "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection"! :)

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Thank you! God bless, and stay strong! Don’t run away from the UMC

[@vinxit]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 haha I'm not part of the UMC, I'm not from America at all! I'm from Asia, though we are always constantly watching and praying for our American brothers and sisters like you :)

[@jonbutnoh]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 do you still stand by “Don’t run away from the UMC”

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

@@jonbutnoh 100%

[@amcc666]

Started reading “a plain account of Christian perfection” based off your recommendation. Thank you!

[@pierrebassel2109]

"inspired by based methodists" is a something that a gigachad would say

[@dannyzaze9126]

agreed

[@MissingTrails]

Another "y not x" video, excellent. Slowly narrowing down to a Redeemed Zoomer denomination reveal (only 39,995 denominations to go according to Cathorthobros)

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Bruh you know what I am 😂

[@bushbladesnbows.2378]

"Cathorthobros" 🤣💀

[@samuelprice2461]

Just found your videos today. My roommate in college became a United Methodist circuit rider pastor while we were still in college (before their big split here recently). He used to joke “I believe in predestination, but that only Calvinists are predestined.”

[@nathanmabry9702]

As someone who is a Methodist (I prefer the term Wesleyan) and not part of the UMC, it is refreshing to hear a defense against the usual retort against Methodists; especially from a Reformed perspective. One thing I did not fully agree with you on was the perspective on Entire Sanctification, or Perfect Love, but another comment has already cleared up some of that.

[@patty7016]

My dad is a non practicing lukewarm Methodist. I'm a Catholic, but I can seriously respect Wesley and and the Methodist lifestyle.

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Classical Methodism is cool to an extent

[@agentjs09]

I gotta admit, conservative methodism is probably my favorite protestant denomination. If I had to be protestant, that is probably what I would be. I am a practical guy so I like the book of discipline.

[@isaacsingleton9187]

Hey sorry I know this comment is a year old lol, but I just happened upon this video and saw this comment. So I was curious, being a Methodist, which church is it you belong to? I'm interested by what you said because I have a few Orthodox friends, and whenever we talk about theology stuff it always seems like our churches agree with eachother just with different wording. So I was wondering if my hypothesis was correct, if you happened to be Orthodox. And wether you're Orthodox or Catholic, what is it you like about Methodism?

[@bushbladesnbows.2378]

Hey I'm a fellow conservative Presbyterian zoomer and I just discovered your channel and I love it keep up the good work

[@jhoughjr1]

good to see more conservative of the zoomers. zoomers have a better chance going forward than us millennials did I think.

[@taylorwickham]

Ironically, as a Methodist, soteriology (I hope I spelled that right) is the one reason why I couldn't be Presbyterian.

[@calebneff5777]

As a proud Pentecostal, yes much of charismatic teaching is too man-centered. Most people who profess to be Pentecostal also reject word of faith. For instance 4 of my friends recently left a word of faith church after gently correcting their pastor and him refusing it. One of them was on staff. I would occasionally play guitar in their band, but I won’t any longer. There is currently a big push in the general charismatic culture to refocus on Christ. Now that being said, there is a common misconception that charismatics have the same skewed view of Christianity that general evangelicals have, which is that the Bible basically just teaches “God loves you”, but we don’t. We preach the real, full gospel that tells of conviction, a heritage of faith, the goals of God, and the true theology of the Trinity. At times, charismatics can fall into lordship salvation but never progressive Christianity or a watered down gospel. Zoomer I know you have not expressed this, just more saying it for the commenters who like to jump on charismatics without really knowing our culture.

[@pipinfresh]

A slight correction. The 5 points of Calvinism were actually a response to the 5 points of Arminianism, it was the Arminian's who created 5 points to criticize Calvinism and in response the Calvinist created 5 counterpoints which became the 5 points of Calvinism. Then many years later the acronym of TULIP was created. So the whole 5 point thing actually started as a response to the Arminian's 5 points of criticism of Calvinism.

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

I had a friend married in a Methodist church recently. I really liked how it was more elegant, but still beautiful.

[@philipcollins90]

9:27 man I wish I had like a freedom of choice “hey” said John free will inventor of freedom

[@Thomas_jefferson1743]

I grew up methodist I was baptized Methodist and I was raised Methodist by my babysitter who took me to church

[@sagecollins6131]

I'm a believer and someone else isn't because I have faith. I'm not saying I have anything to boast about because faith isn't a work. Romans 3:21-22 makes that clear. Faith and works are opposites and grace is God's gift in the salvation process, not Faith.

[@intheovaloffice]

9:33: "John free will"

[@isaacverhelst3983]

21:12 hello, former united methodist who attended three annual conferences (2017-2019) for the Michigan conference. You are correct that the conservatives are the majority international, hence why the traditional plan went through. However, in the United States, that is not the case. Pro-LGBTQ folks are the majority (and in many cases supermajority) in most US jurisdictions. That is key. The global Methodist church is being led not by African or Eastern European or Filipino Methodists. It was started by US Methodists who are feeling outnumbered in the US context. Yes, on the international stage, a majority of the church is “traditional” on LGBTQ matters. But here in the US, not the case. For example: at the 2019 annual conference, a poll was conducted to see where people lay on the LGBTQ issues that were splitting the church. 70% were in favor of affirmation of LGBTQ marriage and clergy, and 30% fell along conservative lines. I believe numbers from Wisconsin, Illinois, and Minnesota were similar to that. Even in the south, I believe one of the North Carolina conferences was majority affirming. Tl;dr- since conservatives are not the majority in the US, they are leaving

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

That's still a cowardly move. They need to stay and fight and lot leave the millions of congregants to the wolves

[@Amavera]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 I would encourage you to look into this issue more before pronouncing judgement. Methodist churches are under the jurisdiction of bishops who are appointed for life. Methodist clergy are all but required to come from specific extremely liberal seminaries and are unlikely to be appointed if they hold traditional views. The clergy elect the bishops and at the most recent election, they flagrantly violated the discipline by refusing to confirm bishops in at least one jurisdiction because the "moderate" candidate was too orthodox. Complaints can be brought against clergy and bishops who violate the Book of Discipline and the church's official stance on sexual ethics, but no bishop will actually uphold the standards. Congregations have no say in who is appointed pastor and pastors have been punitively reassigned or forced to resign for holding to what the Book of Discipline actually says. There is simply no way for conservative lay members to win the fight given the structure of the denomination. There is not enough of a majority in the global UMC church, let alone within the US, to change that structure. 50 years ago, perhaps, the structure of the leadership could have been changed to prevent the stranglehold and complete lack of accountability that liberal bishops now have, but at this point, that is impossible. It's like trying to win a game of poker when the format keeps changing, no one will tell you what it is, and the dealer gets to declare himself the winner regardless of the cards he holds. No matter how long you stay at the table, you're not going to make any progress; the only choice is to move to an honest game. I applaud your desire to work to reform the PCUSA, but it's important to know when to shake the dust off your feet and move on.

[@joshyancey7666]

@@Amavera this! I don’t feel it as cowardly, but necessary to preserve discipline. It was presented to us as that the book of discipline was violated, but none of the leadership would act. We didn’t have a voice to rectify the situation. And likely never would. What other options are there?

[@mandydholzer]

Agreed. Please take time to learn about the situation before branding us as cowards. We're not "fleeing" from anything. The language in the book of Discipline regarding the definition of marriage as one man and one woman is going to be changed.

[@Tr33ba1t]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 the problem with this is that the churches that do not follow traditional Methodist teaching also Tithe a lot less. This is part of why the UMC is so against us leaving. So while staying and waiting them out may seem like the moral and correct thing, it is more likely to allow them to continue growing. would you consider amputating a severely infected limb to be cowardly? because that is what most conservative Methodists believe they are doing

[@brandonking2223]

Thank you this video helped me a lot I’ve been struggling lately and it was much needed and reaffirming

[@marshimeak1972]

I predicted this video.

[@TheKing-qz9wd]

On the note of why one chooses and another: I dunno about others but when I was looking a religion it included the questions "Why must I endure this suffering?" and "Why should hedonists experiencr only more pleasure later?" So I will sometimes say "maybe I am smarter and made the right choice" because, be honest, you're an idiot if you think you can attack the very embodied reason you exist and survive. Such self destructive attitudes are insanity. But the general rule was "I saw all the gods and found the one who seemed logical and moral." Of course somebody will say "but that diminishes God"... I wouldn't need to ask why I suffer if I was righteous enough to maintain direct communion with God, now would I? He's still on the throne here.

[@thatocelot879]

What do you call a Caucasian Methodist? *An Armenian Arminian*

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

Armenians follow that weird Miapysite crap.

[@taylorwickham]

​@@noahtylerpritchett2682 I think he means the ethnicity/nationality of Armenian, not the denomination.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@taylorwickham I used to be a Arminian. So I know he means the Armenians. And the Armenians follow the "Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church" who are Miaphysites.

[@taylorwickham]

@noahtylerpritchett2682 I understand that, but in the joke, the Armenian in question is Methodist, not Oriental Orthodox.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

@@taylorwickham hahaha. I wonder if Arminian Armenians exist 😂

[@darreljones8645]

I attended United Methodist churches throughout my childhood, and my father was a practicing Methodist pastor for a decade. The idea that Methodists are "hippies" was new to him. Can someone explain to me what Redeemed Zoomer means by that?

[@zuffin1864]

I think it is a joke about some of their theological conclusions being God's mysticism? I think

[@whatsinaname691]

They’re historically associated with the left-wing of Protestantism

[@samuelcorson2178]

Also, Liberalism within Methodism can lend itself to have soft and fluffy “hippie” theology. A lot of Kumbaya ecumenicism. Many Methodists have a tendency to be activists which also can be associated with hippie culture.

[@marshimeak1972]

Question unrelated: Jehovah's Witness is considered Christian according to Google but don't believe in the Trinity, so are Jehovah's Witness Christian?

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

no they are not. They deny the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Nicene Creed, and many other essentials so they are not Christian. They don't worship the same God as us

[@marshimeak1972]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 I thought so too, I wanted to confirm because Google says otherwise. Thank you!

[@stephenrussell2013]

Jesus is God in human form. JW's (among others) deny this. Read The Gospel of John, chapter 8. "Before Abraham was, I Am" Who can say that but God alone?

[@calebneff5777]

No

[@watcherwlc53]

@@redeemedzoomer6053 Do Jews worship a different God? Do Muslims? Do the Bahai? If not... Is there any such thing as Abrahamic faiths? If there is are JW and Mormonism Abrahamic faiths?

[@aaronwilson8768]

I'm a Penncostal Holiness Yes i'm arminian westlan armenian I find Your Believes are Very intelligently explained

[@aaronwilson8768]

Unlike other pentecostals. Where I do believe in speaking in tongues. I do not believe that it is the evidence of the holy ghost. I do not believe that prophecy is necessarily for today because the Canon of scripture is closed. But I do believe in word knowledge and word of wisdom. And that God warns us and that he does eliminate his word.that helping us understand itBut we do not need revelation today because of the Bible which is like you. I'm not word faith either I Don't have Time to argue if I'm listening and I am listening to you.

[@LilacDaisy2]

I'm considering going to a Wesleyan church. I didn't think they would be penticostal - is that a common thing, do you know

[@elijahmichaelschweikert2941]

In my experience, Baptists take the two sacraments they observe (baptism and communion) very seriously. They don't use a calendar to decide when to take communion, believing that a monthly schedule can take away from its importance by creating an empty tradition.

[@sartoriusrock]

Armenian =/= Arminian! Figures they're phonetically almost identical, but they are definitely not the same. Armenian refers to something from (the endonym) of Armenia, the country in Asia which was indeed one of the earliest Christian strongholds. Armenian Christians are part of the oriental orthodox as you described. Arminian refers to those who adhere to the teaching of Arminius, the Dutch-Reformed preacher who you referenced throughout the rest of the video.

[@gwynn2165]

Interesting, my teacher always referred to it as Armenian.

[@sartoriusrock]

@@gwynn2165 As in, Armenian vs. Calvinist?

[@owenbarnes7186]

11:49 Redeemed Zoomer is a Methodist Confirmed! 🤣🤣

[@joshuas1834]

Is there a good podcast or KZbin channel for Methodist apologetics and perspectives? I'd really like to hear their theology presented by someone who believes in it.

[@nickthegreat4957]

Plainspoken and Method Ministries

[@jacobbrassard2776]

Bro I was in a Methodist church for a while cause my sister played piano for them. Great youth group and community. But a lot of outright heresy like they had 3 schisms while I was there…

[@LilacDaisy2]

I don't even know what a schism is!

[@michaelnelson9211]

John 3:16 anyone can believe.

[@CahokiaOfficial]

What is your opinion on the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) Church?

[@TEEKYEEANMoe]

According to my family tree, it doesn't had a definition of Christianity, because my ancestors are Buddhist. Until my Mother younger brother died and a nurse invite her to a Methodist church for the funeral. But my grandmother was Congregationalist.

[@birdblackbird4766]

I came here after you said you weren't gonna do a vid about methodists in the dutch reformed one lol

[@theginganinja08]

Has anyone asked you about Molinism? I found your channel through the "1 good thing about every denomination" video, and let me just say I love your content. But I'm interested in seeing your opinions about the other, non-calvanist views.

[@jojogodtier]

This whole kingdomcraft thing is so nerdy but based at the same time.

[@jacksonkuzmic]

You should make a video about the tiers of churches you would go to

[@nsmith5636]

Was the question of why some chose God and not others a question that the early church delt with? I feel like philosophy had made that a major issue leading some to Calvinism when that concern isn't a thing under the definition of free will. If there is a reason that makes some people choose differently then it isn't actually a free will decision.

[@redvids3811]

Methodists accused of doing meth

[@djwiggles2835]

I think your view on entire sanctification is misrepresented. Wesley never claimed that entire sanctification was a destination of ceasing to sin. It is about obtaining the mind of Christ and reaching a point of daily growth in loving God perfectly with your heart, soul, mind, and strength and profoundly loving your neighbor as yourself. This, by the way, is done entirely by sanctifying grace and by no means of human strength. As a Methodist, I love your videos, man! Christ is King!

[@thejman6489]

You should open a server for your subs

[@jhoughjr1]

A lot in that question of, why did u make the right choice vs someone who made the wrong. Still hard to reconcile the idea of the elect and free will. For me freely choosing yes or no to acknowledge god is vital to cosmos. Lot of things to think about. Idk how the algorithm has been following my thoughts so well with your videos lately.

[@smookie2351]

I cant see why i am not Lutheran on the playlist...

[@suevialania]

I knew an English Anglican/ Episcopalian and a Scottish Presbiterian; an Welsh Methodist; an Ulster/ Northern Irish Baptist and they are ok! I don't understand why are not United Kingdom of God?!If they take a piece of each One and Unite...

[@jimluebke3869]

I can't help but see RZ's Jewish roots in his philosophy here -- highly intellectual, highly traditional, more than willing to fight to protect what is holy.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

yes, I think you are correct. I hadn't thought about that before though

[@watcherwlc53]

If he's Jewish he's apostate.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

@@watcherwlc53 Well of course I don’t follow Judaism at all. I’m only Jewish in terms of heritage, not religion. My only religion is Christianity

[@jhoughjr1]

I think the jews are an example of if you fight, you can win even through millennia of adversity.

[@PR1NC345]

Tbh even tho Calvinism seems harsh and unfair and i felt that many points are right about God but it just kinda felt morally wrong so i just thought of the moral argument and technically speaking you can't say what's bad or evil because you and I have subjective morality so my small minded brain saying what's good or bad and putting that over God is just ridiculous but then I thought that it isn't biblical because this contradicts God being all loving but that just goes back like a loop because then you'd ask yourself "what is good? What is bad? is my interpretation of it the true one in the entire universe?" And that just made me accept Calvinism since that was the main points I didn't agree with when it came to morality

[@boydrobertson2362]

I've always been a fan of Wesleyan faith because the Wesleyan Quadrilateral has always been very intuitive. I'm from Bethany, Oklahoma, so it was a guerenteed that I'd become Nazarene. To be frank, I've always considered myself a Wesleyan Christian more than a Methodist because there is a lot in methodism that I'm effy on. Im kind of stuck between many faiths. I also grew up in a Polish-Ukrainian community, so I am very orthodox/catholic high church oriented so ive had issues with many evangelical churches because of it.

[@CahokiaOfficial]

What exactly didn’t you like about Methodism?

[@zuffin1864]

If calvinism means God knew how you would respond in the specific circumstances in which you would Accept Jesus, and he put you there, i would say God made that happen, but you yourself is still you saying "Yes I accept you as my lord" which you said because God made you who you are to say that. I would be calvinist

[@fighterofthenightman1057]

I wasn’t aware of the hippies stereotype, haha. To me, Methodists are the most stereotypically bland, white bread, prototypical type of Protestant … like if I see a stereotypical American family going to church in a movie and it’s not specified, I just assume it’s Methodist.

[@WastelandArmorer]

There is a methodist church in my town with a female pastor, the steps are painted rainbow, and the entirety of their message is you are loved. Now there are also weslyian churches in the area that are solid.

[@David-bh7hs]

What state do you go to school in? Is it UPS?

[@watcherwlc53]

???

[@henrybrandt8861]

I thought Georgia was the first nation to adopt christianity as a state religon

[@ToughCheese]

Okay so your point about it being ridiculous for people to improve enough to stop sinning, what about that is unbelievable? If i were to sit in a box my whole life, and read the bible, eat and drink only when i need, where is the sin? It is totally possible to do that because of free will. I mean jesus himself in a human body was tempted by Lucifer himself, and did not sin, while his mind may have been divine he still had human needs? (Not angry just genuinely curious)

[@SwampFox4939]

Your sin would be isolating yourself from the world and not fulfilling the great commission. Sin isn’t merely abstaining from vices but also failing to do good.

[@raider363]

9 minutes in and all there's been is a series of tangents about terminiology not addressing the point of the video. I'm out.

[@cowboyschad5x778]

You have to define your terms in order to explain yourself. Patience is a virtue

[@sethplace]

We had no choice. The leadership was corrupt. You almost lost a viewer today.