Cloudhammer Steelworks S5 Katana Review and Destruction

[@rvakatana]

This latest batch of s5 (same which Shad and Joe got) was heat treated to improve hardness (HRC 58) and edge retention, while keeping the impact resistance close to the previous s7 (HRC 56). To be clear, this is a feature and not a bug. On paper, this sword should be as tough as the s7, and I think its worth noting that that s7 wasnt used to chop granite before being sacrificed in the croquet stick of doom. When Matt gets the s7 shards back, we would love to see him clash the edge against the s5 to see which bites deeper. For the future, we are talking about doing two different heat treats in the future: one which emphasizes durability (56 HrC/186j to break) for those who want the highest durability; and one which emphasizes edge retention (60 HRC/140j to break), who want a better edge but with a durability that is still 50% greater than spring steels.

[@Ranstone]

Off the top of your head, do you know how a 58 Rockwell, 6150 steel blade might compare? Albions are what I'm familiar with, and I don't want to break mine for science.

[@rvakatana]

@@Ranstone on paper, s5 at 58 HRC should have over 50% greater the impact resistance, but less bend tolerance (60-70 degrees vs 90 degrees on 6150). However, there are other factors like blade geometry

[@broadwayjoe573]

I do appreciate that you are responsive to your customers; however, a better option for those looking for improved edge retention might be to refer them to a blade made from a different type of steel. I imagine the majority of s5 shoppers are looking for the epitome of durability. Now that we know that some of these are heat treated in such a manner that makes them less durable than s7, our confidence is compromised in the s5's primary selling point. After watching this, I now need to see hard proof of s5's alleged superior durability. Otherwise, as Mr. Jensen concludes, it is not worth the cost. A test with a more durable s5 sword is needed to restore confidence in this steel.

[@rvakatana]

@@broadwayjoe573 excellent point, one which Matt and I discussed today. We are definitely going to return to the tougher version for sure, but maybe also have another version with maximum edge retention with a toughnrss which is between 9260 and the original s7

[@Snarlacc]

​@@rvakatana Even at 58HRC S5 should be tougher than S7, though the sweet spot seems around 55/56HRC - theorethically. Is this blade maybe thinner than the S7 was? But wouldn't it be better to use a different steel to maximise edge retention, S5 isn't the most balanced and might not even profit that much from higher hardness for the toughness you lose.

[@RodneyKatana]

Iaido has really honed your swordsmanship Video looks great Matthew!

[@Andy-xx11]

I once told Rva Katana that I need an s5 with higher hardness and better edge retention than the s7. He did it. In your video, you first cut the stone and metal with the blade without breaking, and then hit the back of the blade, katana The structure is very normal if you hit the back after breaking the blade because the difference in thickness is too large. This is normal. I also tested it with my high-hardness second-generation S5 katana and cut in the direction of the blade. Metal, stone, pom stick...s5 survived and after simple grinding, it was as bright as new again.

[@SanicSez]

So s7 cloudhammer is stronger and lighter than any zombietools or albion?

[@8Majlo]

Finaly Matthew... thank you. Almost bought it last night. super steel...i dont know🤷🏽‍♂️

[@Dalladrien]

They need to do a S5 XVIIIc type sword. That thing would be a super cutter, while not chipping easily, as swords of such profile so often do.

[@FortuneFavoursTheBold]

Very concise destructive review. Very shocking that it broke as soon as it met the Stake of Doom. Something's wrong with the heat treatment in this batch.

[@CoDisFactSearch]

Is this a real comment?

[@FortuneFavoursTheBold]

@ you asked if yourself made a “real comment “? How am i supposed to know that?

[@KF1]

Good showing. Weird how easily this broke, while the budget 65Mn you tested nearly refused to snap at all. Would be neat to see a side-by-side comparison of the breakage scenes between different steels. My guess is that the steel isn't the important thing, but how well it's been tempered.

[@gavelock]

Right here is my issue with mass production swords. What you can get today generally represents an astonishing value for dollar, but there is no way of knowing whether the steel is what its supposed to be or even if so, whether it was heat treated the way it was supposed to be. Possibly not even RVA's fault they may just be going in what they're told. Not gonna spend 3.5-5x as much for what is essentially a upgraded LQ Katana if the main upgrade may or may not actually be there

[@Kratos_God_of_50_BMG]

I’m pretty surprised myself after seeing Shad’s and Joe’s (JS Bladecraft) reviews on their S5 katanas. I bought 3 S5 katana myself, under the impression that Cloudhammer’s fit and finish is kinda subpar….which it is, and along with a lack of paper cutting sharpness there are no horn parts and a ridiculously light saya like yours on my Handachi. I was told that Cloudhammer’s blades and special heat treat was what brought the price up so high, so I had planned to strip it down and kinda dress it back up in a classier way when I had my first in hand experience with it. I think katana can be like, well a Japanese made car sometimes. On a whole they function as expected, but there’s always a lemon or two that slips through. I’m not being biased, I’m being objective based on my own experience with them. Minus a Croquet Stick of Doom to call my own. Great review Matt!

[@qaibthai8996]

i agree. there are always lemons that skips through

[@Kratos_God_of_50_BMG]

@@qaibthai8996 I mean, it can be the same with other sword forges too. I’d like to see a Shadow Dancer S5 broken to see if S5 really is any better than S7 like it’s supposed to be.

[@rvakatana]

This is from the same batch that Shad and Joe tested. S5 is still more durable than s7 all things being even, but this batch was heat treated to improve hardness and edge retention at the expense of some durability. On paper, 58 HRC/168j to break. We are talking about doing two different heat treats in the future: one which emphasizes durability (56 HrC/186j to break) and one which emphasizes edge retention (60 HRC/140j to break). For reference, the s7 Matt got before was heat treated to 56/168j

[@Kratos_God_of_50_BMG]

@@rvakatana That difference in HRC/Joules will be good for practitioners, as opposed to collectors who like to smack the sh!t out of everything with their 186 joule blade. I wish I could push one of my S5’s to destruction, but the blades aren’t exactly $300. Maybe I’ll test out one of the polymer tsuka S5 blades 🤔 I would still like to see a Shadow Dancer S5 pushed to destruction, but alas I’m short $620 to grab one.

[@rF-Phenom]

The fact that you managed to get it to take a set on the stand makes me question the consistency of cloudhammers heat treat and tempering.

[@KF1]

It's likely similar to the overhardened 51CrV4 that Matthew snapped by slapping a tree. When you bring a TH sword up past 57HRC, toughness and resilience are naturally lost. I think this is common for most steels.

[@gavelock]

Not an expert but from what I understand, what prevents a sword from taking a set is geometry and hardness. RVA talks about bend resistance alot but I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics of bend resistance. Some steels (high nickel steels- 8670, Ztuff, 15n20) can manage high toughness above 57hrc but the heat treat needs to be spot on.

[@KF1]

@@gavelock Imo there's merit in what you say. I'm not an expert either but have lots of experience bending swords. It's important to dial in the specifics of the data-sheet to avoid a comprimise the lateral strength. Cloudhammer has a habit of over-hardening their swords, causing a loss of resilience, loss of edge retention, lots of issue with non-spec.

[@rF-Phenom]

@@gavelock its not so much hardness or geometry as it is the spring temper of the metal. Alot of European and Chinese swords have rather thin blades because they were able to spring temper the steel. The Japanese on the other hand couldnt do that, they lacked the technology, so they built their blades much thicker to help resist bending in the first place, but once it did flex it would generally stay bent. To achieve a spring temper isint too difficult today, once a steel is hardened in the quenching process (where its also the most brittle) it is then heated to a certain temperature for a period of time (this varies on the type of steel and desired temper). You can spring temper even basic steel like 1065, however alloy steels with contents such as silicon and manganese such as 9260 are able to flex further and resist taking a set better. Edit: in the context of this particular sword either it wasnt fully hardened (which i doubt) or the tempering process was not correctly and the steel was essentially annealed (over heated, removing the hardening). This would explain why it took a set so easily, its essentially untreated alloy steel.

[@KF1]

@@rF-Phenom Very true. Keep in mind, hardness/toughness/edge retention/spring temper all exist in relation. A manufacturer might be trying to highlight one aspect (say, rigidity or spring ability) though by leaning more to one attribute, the overall balance of the temper may be shot to crap. I believe this is what we witnessed here with how easy the S5 broke.

[@broadwayjoe573]

Thank you for this video. I have been looking forward to an s5 destruction test.

[@Intrepid_Explorer]

Very interested to see more S steel swords go through destructive tests. I'm actually in the middle of commissioning a collaboratively made S7 steel nodachi that'll be 175cm in length, so I'm hopeful that the steel's ductility and toughness will help the blade be able to support itself under its own length at that size. The blade and saya will be done by one forge, and Z-sey will be the ones that're making the tsuka, so I'm hoping it'll be fairly bulletproof overall.

[@KissakiShinobi]

I would spend my money on something different...

[@Intrepid_Explorer]

@@KissakiShinobi No worries, I've also got a full custom Z-sey in the works too! The nodachi is just more of a personal project since I'd really like to try studying Korean ssangsudo techniques with a solid blade.

[@Erduk]

Yet further evidence that if you're spending more on steel than DH T10/1095, you're probably throwing money away.Plus, properly executed hamon are gorgeous.

[@IAMBabylonTheGreat]

Didn't two Jkoo through hardened swords survive the stick of doom, in your differentially hardened comparison video?

[@natenoneofyourbusiness3623]

The Sweatpants Samurai! Thanks for another great review!

[@IzanaG1z]

Is there any sword that has managed to resist your torture?

[@jacobharris3208]

The 50 dollar musha katana survived Matthews proof test and also the Ronin Katana brand took an insane amount of abuse by Matthew as well

[@joestorey1217]

Fantastic review Matt. I am wondering about your thoughts on a comparison of the S5 from cloud hammer vs shadow dancer? I had shadow dancer make me a S5 35mm wide 28” blade super mirror polish silk Ito Ricco shape. It’s stupid sharp. I saw you do a review on them. Looking forward to your comparison on the two.

[@RockModeNick]

Despite their all over the board reputation, Angel Sword makes differentially carburized S7 blades with a resultant very high edge hardness while maintaining enormous toughness. They have many swords that aren't very historical or historically weighed. But they CUT. And they do not break.

[@gavelock]

A couple years back I picked up an older Bright Knight and a newer Bright Knight. Both came in around 50hrc by my hrc files. Don't know if these were lemons or not but I was disappointed as the point with AS is highest hardness at highest toughness. AS does quite well and could easily afford to send Matt one to break which would prove everything they say. I hope one day they do so.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

"I would confuse it for new" should be a category for all objects.

[@michaelrs8010]

RVA katana made a couple of comments here about this regarding two types of heat treating. One for those looking for overall sword toughness and the other focusing on edge toughness. I probably got that a little wrong but that brings me to my next point that maybe you could have them on a live stream to explain it. Because maybe another S5 sword with the other type of heat treatment would do better on the croquet stick of doom.

[@sloanNYC]

Please wear eye protection on all the cuts, it would suck really bad for you to get a random fragment to the face. Cloudhammer would be much nicer if they made their fittings just a notch better and more interesting and would probably only cost them $3. Would love it if you kept some kind of spreadsheet of all the swords you test with like a basic rating for all of your tests. It would help narrow down my next buy for sure.

[@GrandmasterHobbyist]

THIS, 100% agree on the spreadsheet idea.

[@devine1rno]

Im not a mechanical engineer by trade, but I think reversing the blade is what made it snap so soon. The geometry of a Katana with its curved design makes its backside integrity much more vulnerable. I may be wrong about this, but I beleave breaking the blade by repeated cuts with the edge sude only would have been a much more arduous task perhaps.

[@Matthew_Jensen]

That is the point. The blade goes through abusive stuff before I take the fast track to breaking. That said if you look at the video I made with the S7 blade from the same company, it takes a lot more to break.

[@alexwilmes9496]

Being about as durable as DH T10 is crazy given how cheap those blades can be.

[@lukaskosinski510]

Hi Matthew, thank you for your reviews of katanas , the more i watching i do more appreciate cheaper katanas like Ronin Dojo Pro series. If you have to pick one katana from s5 or s7 steel what would that be or what would you recommend something that doesn't break the bank ?

[@Matthew_Jensen]

What is the budget? Shadow Dancer had an S7 blade for around 500 a while back. that was quite good. Cloud hammer might have an S7 for not too much different. Both are good. The Dojo Pro comes in at a 3rd place finish for durability. Still high on the charts overall.

[@lukaskosinski510]

@@Matthew_Jensen Hi got around $500 in the budget, I'm quite new to it and want to buy my first sword something dissent that will last and survive abuse. I have been searching around and short listed a few swords that I consider -Shadow dancer Tyrannosaurus S7 @ $405 -Shadow Dancer Tyrannosaurus Series 9260 Steel Ninjato @$230 -Dojo Pro KO Katana Model # 10 @$295 -Hanwei Tactical katana @$309 -Cloudhammer Katana - Iron Musashi - s5 @ $550 -Scorpion Swords - Badland Katana 2.0 - Doomsday Line Sword @$285 What would be your choice from that list , or what would you suggest when durability comes as most important thing you look for ? Thank you for your advice, it's good to have an opportunity to ask someone with your high experience level !!! Would you ever consider doing actual training videos with your favourite/ tested technics / common mistake etc for nubies like me and more seasoned garden Ninjas to practice? God bless 🙏🏼 thanks for your work

[@Tazdingooooo]

What is your croquet stick of doom made of?

[@Matthew_Jensen]

mild steel.. I mean unobtanium

[@armedarchangel9567]

I hope mine is not that easy to break.

[@808souljahxl5]

9260 spring steel refuses to be dethroned.

[@Matthew_Jensen]

The s7 blade from cloud hammer has been the most durable so far. 9260 blades at least the through hardened ones have acted similar to this s5 blade.

[@SanicSez]

@@Matthew_Jensenis the S7 have better edge and sharpness retention? If I get a katana I want to buy one and never buy another one. The only sword I ever use is my ronin long sword euro model 2 that I rewrapped the handle myself!

[@yusufrakhmatmaulana6210]

Imagine having this sword in the Sengoku era the enemies will suffer this is torture weapon.

[@willb7713]

And another one bites the dust (or croquet stick of DOOM)... Great video.

[@samuraibyrd]

Nothing to do with swords,i just happen to notice,watching your video,that there was a commercial for a conceal & carry belt for gun holster while numerous KZbin gun channels are getting shut down. Ironic isn’t it?

[@Mossberglover]

What’s a good Katana to buy on Amazon

[@armedarchangel9567]

Just me personally, I wouldn't purchase a Katana from Amazon if you are looking for quality and use ability.

[@KF1]

Murasame or Siwode. Have seen some excellent examples from both. Ask around first

[@preparedsurvivalist2245]

The issue I have with S5 is that it's touted as a super steel but has WORSE edge retention than many other steel types. It's only advantage is its durability. But who actually needs ULTRA durability, and even if you did, as you can see here there are limits to its resilience. In my eyes, you are much better off getting a $500 sword of L6, SX105V, or even 1095 and using it as a sword is intended.

[@KF1]

I have to agree. The higher cost of S5 comes down to a theoretical improvement in durability, rather than a practical one. My 9260 from Huawei would have very likely performed better in all practical tests. Their 9260 takes a super fine edge and holds it, despite being a softer steel. It just absorbs everything.

[@ElJefe3126]

@@KF1 Without testing actual blade hardness, this is all just so much speculation. At the same Rc, S5 should be tougher than S7. But we don't know whether the Rc on the test blade was 55, 60, or somewhere in between.

[@KF1]

@ElJefe3126 sir, we do know that. It was 58, which is too brittle for a through hardened sword. I tested their 51crv4 (57 hrc if I recall), and that was also too brittle, taking edge damage vs bottle tops when it should have been fine. The original S7 was likely not so brittle, with RVA claiming 56 in that case

[@ElJefe3126]

@@KF1 You tested the sword which was in this video? If so, that's a very useful data point. See my comment elsewhere for possible variation in different parts of the blade. If you also tested for that and found it was 58 throughout, that's very dispositive that 58 overall is too hard for katana...with any steel.

[@KF1]

@@ElJefe3126 Not this exact sword, but 3 others (one 51crv4, and 2 sx105v) The sx105v I find vastly superior to the 51crv4. Theoretically, the S5 should be even better, but Matt's vid here shows it's not really worth the extra cost.

[@JoeSteel1]

That's Disappointing, That makes me want to take a Tougher round of testing on my S5, CH claims to fame that their method of producing S5 is better than others, you could have had a one off on it, mine seems to be pretty strong but I by no means gave it the hard treatment you did to failure.

[@rvakatana]

I would argue CH's heat treatment is still "better," because this batch was heat treated to increase HRC and edge retention, specifically in response to people who were saying S-steels had poor edge retention. For the future, we are talking about doing two different heat treats in the future: one which emphasizes durability (56 HrC/186j to break) for those who want the highest durability; and one which emphasizes edge retention (60 HRC/140j to break), who want a better edge but with still great durability. For reference, the s7 Matt got a few years ago was heat treated to 56/168j

[@erichusayn]

I've cut into the concrete of my driveway only slightly dulling the top half inch of the kissaki, whatever my fridge is made of, table leg, ceiling, linoleum of the floor, and all kinds of stands. I recall being blown away by how sharp of an edge they took being a TH katana, (almost indistinguishable from a DH edge) and took out my S5s due to a friend's purchase of a couple and they're still stupidylingly sharp.

[@KissakiShinobi]

I got the Cloudhammer S5 Kodachi. I was very disappointed for a sword for 500 USD it was really poorly made. The fittings were among the cheapest I ever got. All zinc-alloy. They were also used in a tachi-typical manner on the says. Everywhere was residual glue and the fittings weren't aligned. On taking the tsuka off, it turned out that the nakago had a beautiful kiri file pattern, but someone grinded one side half off with an angle grinder (I assume to be able to hammer the tsuka on). Truly disappointed! I got it clearly because of the "indestructible" S5 hype, now this video is not really giving me a lot of hope...

[@KissakiShinobi]

To be fair, I got a 50USD refund... can buy me some koshirae

[@johnhaaff5930]

Man that’s disappointing. Been waiting on your review before I decided between s5 and s7. Looks like S7 it is. Would like to see another blade tested, s5 is rather finicky when it comes to tempering.

[@shadowmuted-d4h]

No longer available.

[@lisocampos8080]

Machete

[@xXjOmAmMaXx]

Unsurprising that S5 sword broke. Overhyped swords are overhyped.

[@andydefrain8955]

Wie gesagt ich liebe deine Videos.. aber einmal etwas persönliches..du hast deine Ohren richten lassen oder? Ist nicht schlimm garnicht.. aber irgendwas stimmt da nicht. Nur so am Rande. Ich erwarte natürlich keine Antwort. Alles gut.

[@andydefrain8955]

Ach übrigens jedes Schwert kann so gebrochen werden.. dafür sind diese nicht gemacht. Egal welches..ich finde es Quatsch,.. sorry!

[@michaelrs8010]

​@@andydefrain8955Yes every sword can be broken. The point is, how long can it last until It breaks or under what conditions will it break?

[@chgofirefighter]

FYI, you want a good quality Katana? Don't buy Chinese sh*t! Real Katana's cost real money at the end you get what you paid! Just purchase it from a reputable Japanese sword-smith manufacturer. Yes, you'll spend some money but it'll be worth it~

[@Matthew_Jensen]

How do you think it will be better? How much do you think a Japanese sword made in Japan costs?

[@paladinhansen137]

@@Matthew_Jensen reproduction swords are like mass production guns in a way. anything above 2k is absurd and honestly one can find a good quality katana just like an ar platform. once you hit around 700-1000 bucks one expects good performance.

[@qaibthai8996]

i am extremely bothered by katanas that dont have a bohi.... it takes like 5 mins to make it, and makes it feel omre japanese. anyone that skips the bohi is like a non mexican making a burrito but adding no beans.

[@TONEDEAFSOUND]

wtf are you talking about lmao there’s literally millions of japanese swords without one

[@xXjOmAmMaXx]

a bohi takes 5 minutes to put in? lol tons of swords to include Japanese antiques that do not have bohi

[@notanotherswordreviewchann4901]

Bo hi is for lightening a sword, that's it. Fullers also cause a lot of drag when cutting. For people who actually use swords, fullers are not ideal. Getting triggered because something does not have a cosmetic thing your enjoy is very gen z. Grow a pair of balls and get some experience .

[@qaibthai8996]

i was under the impresssion that bohi was universal among all samurai swords. then i apologize then

[@KF1]

I think it's important to Always add beans to the burrito pot, but the bo-hi is definitely optional.

[@Weaponsforwarriors]

I was a bit disappointed the s5 wasn't as strong as I was expecting I just started my channel where I will be reviewing The S5 Black lotus from cloud hammer soon, you @Matthew_Jensen And a few others here on KZbin have inspired me to start reviewing swords myself I only have one review up right now and will be doing 4 more soon 😊🙏🏻thank you for doing what you do I very much Enjoy your videos