Do GVM Upgrades Help You Tow?

[@holden3083]

👍. Watching / reaching this topic just proves my point. The manufacturers claimed tow weight is rubbish. What a joke.

[@davexb6595]

Based on all my research into towing weights I'd agree with your final conclusion. One thing that is often overlooked is the difference between what is legal and what is risky. For example a 2.3T ute can legally tow a 3.5T van. Which means the van mass is 152% of the ute mass. Whereas a large American pickup is 2.8T. Which means the 3.5T van is 125% of the pickup. The pick up is also wider, longer and has a larger chassis, wider tyres, etc. In other words the pickup is harder to push around and the mass differential is significantly less. All of this lowers the risk of the pick up rig combination.

[@gordonflash8976]

Loved how you said that no one believes you untill you get your models out. It can be that they just do not know and poorly express that they are unshure, but on the whole i think people just do not like being told the limits, as they are probably quicly figuring out that they are not complient, and they don't want to hear that.

[@sailingcitrinesunset4065]

Year's ago I owned a truck and the law back then was the loaded towing vehicle must weigh more than the loaded trailer (pig trailer wheel configuration). I used to own a truck with a 9000kg gvm could only tow 3000kg. The thought of a 2 tonne ute towing 3.5 tonne freaks me out (tail waging the dog) no wonder there are so many caravan/ boat trailer accidents.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, ideally the towcar should be heavier than the trailer.

[@pen1910]

well presented and explained . note: i did not say "isn't doing my head in"

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks lol please share 😁

[@stevegoodwin5841]

Perfect, once again. Best out there Robert in content and presentation.

[@L2SFBC]

Thank you

[@pammotorsport9743]

I think you could add to this video when people add Bull bars and winches and maybe a second battery under the bonnet. Plus you didn’t mention the added weight of four to five people. Very good video, although I’m going to have to watch it a couple of times. Thank you.

[@triDave99]

Good video as always Robert. I think it is worth clarifying in your closing comments with regard to towing a trailer of greater than 3000kg: you list RAMs, F-trucks and Silverados. The 1500-series models of all those vehicles have the same limitations as the LC200, Y62 Patrol,etc. They are all hamstrung by their Axle load ratings ( ~1750kg Rear) and there are no GVM upgrades available at this point in time. The 2500-series of RAM/Silverado & F250 are the ones required with much higher GVM/GCM/Axle rating's than their baby siblings. ( Unfortunately their price tag matches their high load capacity. But then again the price of an LC300 probably makes them worth considering).

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, I have a video on the Silverado - cannot really tow 4500kg, but does much better with 3500kg. Also, these utes are longer wheelbase, heavier, rear wheels set further back, and typically just better set up to tow, often with exhaust brakes, tow mirrors etc.

[@douger1517]

@@L2SFBC any other factors?

[@rossatkinson3160]

Unfortunately, the propensity in this country is to register the 2500/250's as cars, now extremely limits their payload, approx 800kgs for all three current models, the older models, like my 2012 2500HD Silverado, had a greater than 1,000kg payload, approx 1,200kgs from memory. So unless you register a new 2500/250 as NB2 rego, you can still run into serious gvm issues.

[@garryfleming4816]

Hi Robert, Like a lot of us with the 200 series LC's & Patrol owners out there, once we put them on the BBQ plate (weighbridge) we quickly learn that a GVM upgrade is needed & you think all will be ok & sorted right? WRONG, this is what I went through just like you did, except my fully laden weight was 3400 Kgs, with passengers & ready to go with a full tank of fuel & a few tools in the back. Like yourself, no rear tyre carriers or long range fuel tank, I don't even have a roof rack. I have drawers the same as you & a fridge, ARB Bullbar with winch. I am registered in Victoria so I have the unfair advantage of getting both the GVM & GCM upgrades done POST registration. I had the Lovells stage 1 kit installed which gave me 3800 GVM & 7300GCM, so you would think that if I was to hook up my van which weighs in at 3,400Kgs & a tow ball down load of 350KGS I would be fine right as I have 400 Kg's spare & I am only using 350 of it. This is where no one has worked out that I am still over loaded on the rear axle due to the Fulcrum effect of the 350 Kgs tow ball down load weight which actually adds 510 Kgs to the rear axle & not 350 Kgs. Prior to hooking up the van the front axle weighed in at 1,780 Kgs & the rear of course was 1620 Kgs, 380 Kgs spare on the rear until I dropped the van onto the ball, the rear axle then weighed in at 2,130 Kgs whilst the front weighed in at 1,620 Kgs. Over on the rear by 130 Kgs & if caught, put off the road on the spot with a hefty fine, several demerit points as a bonus. Plus you're not covered by your insurance should anything go wrong! By adding weight to the rear of the vehicle you lift the front slightly (as most of us would have noticed from time to time), this transfers the weight from the front axle & adds it to the rear. It can be calculated by multiplying it by 1.45 time the tow ball weight. After spending nearly $6,000 on getting it all installed, certified and approved by the engineers & Vic Roads I am still not legal (very gutting). The only way I can get it legal is by using a Weight Distribution hitch or spend another $6,000 & getting stage 3 installed & certified, but then your ride becomes very rough of course. Keeping in mind the rear axle maximum limit is 2,000 Kgs & the front axle limit is 1,800 Kgs, how many people have actually weighed the axles separately which is the procedure that the Police or Scallies use? Regards, Garry.

[@L2SFBC]

Exactly what I'm getting at! Thanks for the story 👍

[@matth9700]

Garry, I have a similarly set up LC200 and dilemma as described in your comment. Can a ask what you have ended up doing if you don’t mind me asking??

[@garryfleming4816]

@@matth9700 Hi Matt, I am about to do another upgrade to the highest setting of 4,200 Kg GVM which gives me 7,700 Kg GCM. That upgrade gives me 2,300 Kg rear axle weight & 1,950 Kg front axle weight. I need to do this as I am going for a long range fuel tank 275 Litres, so again the headache begins for the rear axle weight once a caravan is attached. To solve this problem now I am also going with an Andersen Weight Distribution Hitch, this will counter the Fulcrum weight effect of the 350 Kg ball weight.

[@superwag634]

@@garryfleming4816 weight distribution hitch is fine for flat road touring. Don’t forget to disconnect before any undulation, particularly off graded roads, or you will find out what an overloaded drawbar looks like. Seen a few interesting failures as an engineer 😅

[@snapcragglepop]

I weighed this exact combination yesterday. Lc200 with Lovells gvm/gcm upgrade and a 3500kg van. While the car had a couple hundred kg spare, the rear axle only had 10kg spare or 50kg spare with a WDH attached.

[@rjl110919581]

thank you for the detailed video as great watching why got Isuzu 300/75 4x4 truck because tow 9m trailer weight in full loan at 3400kg

[@martinkrahge5568]

Outstanding presentation Robert. Brilliant

[@L2SFBC]

Thank you kindly, please share!

[@frankguernier2280]

My Dad always used the rule of keep the device being towed about the same as the tow vehicle kerb weight. 1970's stuff.

[@L2SFBC]

Good rule - or ideally less than the towcar

[@superwag634]

In UK, they settled on trailer being no more than 85% of car. Vastly reduced towing crashes

[@einfelder8262]

Another item not yet mentioned is tyres. When doing an upgrade, my guess is that it is very common for a good set of LT AT tyres to be added, which in my view greatly adds to safety. But - they are also heavier and thus reduce payload. When talking tiny payloads like 310kg, an extra 5-10kg per wheel/tyre makes a significant difference of maybe 50kg. They in turn also reduce braking effectiveness and have an effect on gearing and fuel economy.

[@L2SFBC]

Correct, and as tyres are rotating mass, they are about equivalent to 1.6x the mass carried in the car. Plus, unsprung weight.

[@sailingcitrinesunset4065]

There's a youtube video of an F250 with GVM upgrade towing a caravan, the F250 has a crushed rear axle! People think the can throw an extra 200kg in the back of the vehicle and end up with a overloaded rear axle & a under loaded front axle

[@brucejfalcke424]

thats so much clearer than muddy water

[@L2SFBC]

Wait for it to settle and it'll become clearer

[@michaeljones2880]

Another thing to watch out for on American trucks is the rear axle weight. Example Chev Silverado has a maximum rear axle weight of 1740 kg, which is low.

[@L2SFBC]

Yep see specialist video on that also new one on 4500kg utes

[@frankguernier2280]

Thanks for your explanation I got most of the calls but will have to re play again so it sinks in. If you could slow down a little with the whiteboard calcs and explanation that would help . Cheers.

[@L2SFBC]

will do!

[@Malc664]

Very interesting, when I thought I knew enough you keep enlightening. Thanks Robert.

[@L2SFBC]

Glad to help, please share!

[@johncunningham4820]

GVM and GCM upgrades need to be accompanied by Chassis bracing/upgrading .

[@waynehobbs5175]

Excellent thanks.

[@L2SFBC]

Glad it was helpful!

[@malcolmdawson779]

Very interesting subject Robert and one you might be able to help clarify with my own set up. We are in Queensland and have a 1988 HJ61 VX Landcruiser Wagon (Japanese import). My vehicle has NO GVM or TARE plate. My vehicle is heavier than the VX that Toyota Australia imported as it has suspension seats, PTO, winch etc.. making its tare weight heavier than noted on any documentation I can find. Going off the Toyota Landcruiser spec sheet that I have, the front axle has a capacity of 1300kg and the rear axle a capacity of 2500 kg. How do I establish a GVM for this vehicle ? We are going to be towing a 2500kg hybrid van and the towbar capacity is 2500kg with a TBM of 180. We need to establish something definitive because we don't want to be in a situation where a random weight check causes us a problem. The vehicle has 500kg+ parabolic springs fitted, upgraded shocks and has had the brakes upgraded. I know the vehicle can to the job no problem at all and have been towing for 30+ years however the new regulations have me feeling uneasy due to being unable to establish the GVM. Can you offer any advice mate? Best regards, Mal and Di

[@L2SFBC]

The only advice I can offer is to seek guidance from a DTMR endorsed engineer.

[@placestosea]

thanks for the presentation. great info. can you explain what effect a weight distribution hitch has on rear axle load and front axle load (assuming it does?) I look forward to the answer

[@L2SFBC]

Hi yes take a look at my WDH video 👍

[@Expedient_Mensch]

Hi Robert, sounds to me like a re-rating is just a legalised overloading. Why is the vehicle simply not rated at the new rate in the first place? And how do you get your vehicle re-rated (in Victoria) do you need to have an engineer's report or something?

[@L2SFBC]

Just install a pre-approved kit and you're done. It's not rated in the first place because the carmarker engineers don't want to rate it that high for a variety of reasons including caution. I would use GVM upgrades with care.

[@mrbundyk]

Thanks for the great video Robert. I will ask this though, what stops me from towing 3500kg with a Landcruiser after doing a GVM upgrade? The "GCM" is merely a combination of stated GVM plus stated Max Tow Capacity, the actual GCM of the vehicle is not stated anywhere. Its not on the compliance plate, rego papers, owners manual or the Road Vehicle Descriptor. Light vehicles dont always have a stated GCM (as is the case with the 200 Series) so, theoretically, if the GVM of the 200 was increased to 3800kg then the "GCM" is now 7300kg. The owners manual for a 200 Series states a max GVM and a max tow capacity, it does NOT talk about combination weight. Keen to hear your thoughts on this and to see anything that proves me wrong.

[@L2SFBC]

The GCM is stated by the manufacturer and it may not be a combination of stock GVM and braked tow, very often it is lower. Toyota's documentation clearly states a GCM limit on the websites, press releases etc, and in their towing guide toyotamanuals.com.au/images/towing_guide-toyota.pdf but I don't know about the owner's handbook in particular. You can well take the view you have but personally, I wouldn't risk it and wish you luck with any insurance claim or weights compliance check.

[@mrbundyk]

@@L2SFBC thanks for getting back to me. To be clear, this isn't something I'd actually do (I don't see the point of a caravan that big). I posed the question as there isn't any real official documentation to state the 200 series GCM (yes, it can be found on the Toyota website in the form of a sales brochure spec sheet and I can can confirm its not in the owners manual) so it wouldn't be a stretch to claim the 200 has no stated GCM, rather it's purely a combination of the max tow and the complied GVM. It's certainly a standpoint that is not without a whole heap of risk.

[@carlfrier2873]

Any further updates on GVM upgrades for the LC 300?

[@L2SFBC]

Not that I'm aware of but can't be long now.

[@shauncooper9942]

Hi Robert. Could you please help me to find your video on the Caravan roll-over with the couple involved in that accident? .I really want to share it with my Nephew and Brother but I cannot find you anywhere in my subscription list. any chance you could help please??

[@L2SFBC]

Sure kzbin.info/www/bejne/boioqJuDqN-Mh7c

[@GRcorolla-bt3mn]

Do GVM upgrades actually increase payload? Because Auto Expert John Cadogan claims it to be fake. Just asking because I am confused.

[@L2SFBC]

They do increase payload. Particularly the axle re rate ones. Why say otherwise?

[@rossatkinson3160]

I think you are taking it out of context, he was referring to the towing at maximum limit, no real increase in available payload once towing max tow load. No towing, yes they must and do increase available payload.

[@Kevin-ee2tz]

Good morning Robert, I live in Qld and am considering selling my LC200 and purchasing a new Ram 3500 for purpose of towing a 3500kg ATM caravan and also having additional payload capability in truck. I prefer the 3500 RAM over the 2500 variant as it increases payload from 886kg (not enough for my needs once TBM factored in) to 1,759kg (more than I need lol but at least no more worrying about going over limits). Question if I may - Is there anything I should be aware of regards moving to the NB 2 class vehicle? I already hold relevant Qld drivers licence but curious if any other implications e.g. registration cost, any annual or bi annual requirements to have it inspected for roadworthiness compliance in Qld? Or anything else you’re aware of I should consider? Kind Regards Kev

[@L2SFBC]

Yes - insurance, rego, toll fees etc may be different. Can't say for sure, but you are right to not assume the same as lighter vehicles. Good choice on the 3500.

[@Kevin-ee2tz]

@@L2SFBC Thanks for getting back to me, appreciate it.

[@rossatkinson3160]

Kev, Annual certificate of inspection, fortunately you may now do this anywhere is Australia, and it is forwarded to DOT Qld. You could perhaps get away with a 2500 on NB2 rego, some 2500s can get up to 5,500kgs gvm, but maybe just getting the 3500 from the outset is the way to go. Insurance is probably the biggest issue. Consider also RACQ breakdown cover, they are very vague about whether they will recover you or not. The standard NB2 rego for a 2500 may be enough, do not discount the 2500, my Chev can go straight to 5,136kgs instantly. it is an older 2012 model, and has a tare of approx 3,300kgs, giving NB2 rego a payload of 1,950kgs approx.

[@frankguernier2280]

So if the cowboys hitch up the 3500kg van to their LC300. Load the wife and two kids in as well as have ARB throw every bling extra on board they are going to be in trouble.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes they are

[@hthring]

Good job but pretty much the whole second half is irrelevant as you can't put 300+ kg of ball mass on these cars rear axle limits

[@carlfrier2873]

Still no time line on GVM for LC 300 VX model

[@smashedhulk8492]

People loading their vehicles like they do their bodies, and it's not healthy for either one.

[@L2SFBC]

Very true!

[@gordonflash8976]

Can you tell me where i might find my vehicles front and rear axel max limits? Toyota prado 150 2012.

[@bvward]

Robert, how does one achieve an upgrade? Is it different suspension components, etc.?

[@L2SFBC]

Hi - usually only suspension is required, specifically springs and dampers(shocks). Nothing else! I would like to see brake upgrades as mandatory.

[@bvward]

@@L2SFBC91 Thanks, Robert. I'm used to seeing big pickups (utes) with 6 inch (150mm) or greater lift kits in the 'States ;)

[@L2SFBC]

Not legal here!

[@Malc664]

@@bvward We have 8 nanny states in Australia. Worlds largest prison. Breathing the air is allowed, I think it's free, don't know.

[@bvward]

@@Malc664 Malcolm, each of our 50 states have their own rules regarding vehicles. California is toughest. In New Jersey, I can swap engines as long as it passes the inspection (OBDII Only). If it is over 25 years old, no inspection required at all. Some states don't require inspection or insurance, but you have to have an escrow account to prove you have funds if you are in an accident...

[@11385djg]

My only comment is - I don't agree with your 497kg (350 TBM x 142%). This has no basis, why you multiply TBM by the percent of its overhang which results in an increase of your mass? The mass doesn't change regardless of where you put it in relation to the rear wheelbase. You probably confused yourself with lever/moment which is calculated by mass * arm (in this case, overhang). If 497kg argument is true, this is in violation of Newton's third law. To test this, the sum of downward forces on all 4 wheels when LC200 is weighed, should be = TARE+350kg (which the TBM)+ALL OTHER LOADS. It cannot be =TARE+497kg (TBM*overhanging%)+ALL OTHER LOADS.

[@L2SFBC]

Did you notice the weight on the front wheels decreased by 497-350? There's your equation.

[@11385djg]

@@L2SFBC just did my calc after posting my comment. Yup, you are spot on.

[@L2SFBC]

l2sfbc.com/towing-weights-calculator/

[@thelonewolf666]

no gvm upgrade upgrades axle limits--- its a wank, axle re rate---hahahahaha its the same damn axle. if you dived you height by you date of birth, then subtract date of vehicle manufacture, then multiply this by the age of your youngest grandparents nieces aunties 3rd cousin, then add tare weight, plus towball weight and divide it by the age of your second dogs 3rd puppy litter, and add 3, your just under gvm

[@michaelmartin2057]

I really love your work Robert, but you do my head in with all these figures. I don't know if there is any other way to simplify it, but I turn off because it screws with my head.

[@L2SFBC]

Unfortunately, that's as simple as it gets for a full explanation. I could make it simpler, but then it wouldn't be the full picture. In short, if your limitation on towing is the vehicle's GVM, then a GVM upgrade will probably help you tow a heavier trailer.