I Was Wrong ...

[@rozzogozzo6362]

Me, a diamond noob who consistantly float 1k at min 5: "this surely will give me the edge!!!"

[@ROHIRIMSK]

I won't float a single mineral! ... until reaper shows up, kills 4 drones and somehow I will also float 1k by the time he leaves

[@AxelTT555]

@@ROHIRIMSK i was chatting with 4.5k player microing reaper. agains me 3.6k zerg. He told me it's just a matter of habit, to always micro your 1st units like reaper or zerlings and macro behind it. And I was actually able to do this vs regular elite AI, imagining reaper is here. Helps a lot to keep build consistent. 33 ovie, 36 ovie, 31 queen etc. And it allowed me to really improve my build against standard one reaper opener in zvt

[@ThusISpake]

2:19 Outsourcing the testing to Elazer, pro move 😂

[@Diego_BR]

Lambo spend hours doing the math, thinking about compensation to squeeze every single mineral and make the perfect, to se second, openning. Clem runs by with 4 hellions and kill 18 drones. 💀

[@Dodosama-kv1ze]

maybe, but just look at other "physical" pro sports where every 1/100 counts or like me, playing pool, where almost every mm matters (though im'm in the lower leagues) so it's only natural to try and squeeze every last bit out of your play. except for some godlike talents like serral and clem, the top 20 are so nearby each other that every % counts

[@JesusVargas-zt2dl]

been doing this for like the entire 12 years or so I've played because I just liked the way it felt. Even though I "knew" it was less efficient according to youtube/twitch/guides lol. Funny to see I was right all along.

[@balazshajdu4612]

The GOAT!

[@MichaelRobertson-ny5ss]

I think it's technically wrong to consider the extractor trick costing 6 minerals because all units/buildings' cost are divisible by 5. There is no way to use 4 of the minerals you get back until you cancel something else and make that number go to 5/10 (or closer to it). So for the purposes of the opener where you aren't canceling a second structure/unit, it's more accurate to say that it costs 10 (6 + unusable 4) minerals to cancel the extractor + the 3 seconds of lost mining time (13 minerals).

[@LamboSC2]

You're correct, those 4 minerals aren't usable untill you cancle something else or mine gold minerals. 14 and 15 Overlord are still better regardless, but i haven't conisdered that, thank you very much!

[@Wezelkonijn]

You are still wrong. The best opener is 12 pool.

[@patrickmiller6236]

😂

[@SpicyShaman]

As long as you commit to it, 12 pool will take you to top of diamond every time. Please send tips on how to break into masters with 12 pool. Thank you.

[@JJV7243]

I prefer spine crawler rush in my opponents base - but thats a personal prefence.

[@SpicyShaman]

@@JJV7243 Well ideally you're doing both

[@BatkoNashBandera774]

This revelation is going to help all Silver 2 Zergs finally make it to Diamond 1.

[@amiaoghg9562]

This must be why I'm not grandmaster. huh.

[@ipqwurio1668]

Yeah, slightly more than a year ago, I was testing build orders with zerg openings. I was not liking the fact that my second overlord (which I make at 13 supply) makes larva spawn blocking (Perhaps I can come up with something?). And I came up with this build order (15 overlord into 1 drone and than hatch). This hatch was slightly earlier, 46 seconds in the game (I know that u can make this hatch at very mid-late of 46 sec with 13 overlord, with this buildorder though one can make it at the early start of 46 second. however no matter how hard I tried I could not make it in 45 seconds not in a single game in all of a year), I thought it was slightly, slightly better because, my pool timing was relatively the same (I still could make it 1:12 as normal hatch), however hatch by itself was like quarter or half of a second earlier. However, I was not like 100% sure still that it was really slightly better well, because I did not expect me to be the player to play this build order first. The only thing that I was not liking when making this overlord is actually cannon rush. The thing is, if your overlord is this late, the very earliest cannon rush arrives faster than your second overlord (15 hatch) goes to your natural and idk, I think that was worth mentioning, even though I understand that this is not a huge deal since it only matters about forge first into very fast cannon rush, however for players like me, I do not know what to do when I see with my overlord pylons and cannons already making because I used to defend it by just pooling the drones in time. Also I would like to know your opinion about 15 overlord into pool in ZvT (other math ups maybe?), So like the build order is 15 overlord->pool-> 3 drones and a hatch. In this build order u have less minerals to work with so your hatch is like 2-3 seconds later, however, your first queen (if u delay drones on a gas) arrives much earlier and u can make an injection on your hatch earlier, maybe it can compensate somehow for this 20 minerals loss? I am totally unsure about this build order though, because you lose mining time early, but again i don't think that difference is that huge.

[@Rektek97]

get out of my way, peasants! i have some sweet platinum ladder points to collect

[@Lukas-ii9kw]

Ladder players hate this one little trick! My Dia1 promotion is right around the corner now!

[@Aerowen19]

They don't call Lambo "The Professor" for nothing.

[@rainma7818]

Would it be possible to a quick video on drone spliting? It's always talked about but I can't find anything (in LOTV) about how to do it properly, as in what to do, and what are the mouseclicks/keyboard presses need to do it.

[@NormalGuySC2]

Wow! I've played thousands upon thousands of matches of this game for 15 years and I've been doing it wrong the whole time. Thank you professor for your tutelage. GM here I come!!!

[@Riquized]

Thank you for giving us a thorough explaination on this! I had a hard time figuring out the advantage of the 15ov 😅

[@aaronbuffalo7769]

riqi the madlad

[@aaronbuffalo7769]

It is cool that even seemingly small changes on timings and costs depending on the patch, can wildly affect different build orders leading to multiple different avenues to how gamestates evolve over time. Kinda like the 15 hatch in general really popularized by Erik, but 15 hatch has been around for a good while with the likes NoRegret and Scarlet utilising it for cheeses and counterplay ( to which I shamelessly stole and used for like 2 years lol ) but serral took it to another level entirely figuring out multiple avenues within a certain meta/patch , the stars aligned for it, Maybe the 13 overlord was correct in days of old but it looks like we could be in for a whole new ball game once again.

[@ROHIRIMSK]

Love these kinds of videos, keep them coming

[@CodexScriba]

I'm going 15 overlord still 3000MMR what's up with that? .

[@LamboSC2]

I heard there's a bug where your MMR is shown as half, unlucky brother~

[@keizan5132]

Starcraft II never ceases to amaze me ❤.

[@AudreyandmeAu]

I hope there are tournaments to see this

[@JohnCephas]

The zerg cabal trying to cover its tracks!

[@JohnCephas]

PS love your channel Lambo, I am a zerg main

[@pezz8029]

meomaika has known this for years

[@lodowazamiec]

Woa, I thought it was about your balance stance.

[@maryrosetran5109]

Now only if we can see these openings on exciting maps.

[@xXPrincipeOscuroXx]

well spotted Lambo!

[@wush2570]

from the thumbnail i thought it was gonna be overlord drops

[@DaveTestaSC]

"Also Shoutout to shin for not always going 13 overlord previously (he sometimes went 14 before for quite some time)." so based haha :D I've seen a few of those in my day. Gonna try this out, and die to some not a build in diamond league Zerg. Thanks Goat haha

[@benismann]

NOOO but 13 ovi was like the only thing i learnt about zerg (i main zerg) i will never recover from this

[@bartchi3840]

Zerg cabal is strong with this one

[@itspch]

Why did it take professionals years to figure this out? Why did Ragnarok know this before anyone else?

[@Pinguin_skipper998]

15 ovie big brain moves just to get supply blocked on 36 as always🎉

[@Buttersman]

For some reason I watched this at 4 am. I haven't picked up sc2 in months 😅

[@SigilSC2]

Trying to work out when to send the drone down for the 15ol/16h, mineral stacking, and the extractor trick is pretty APM intensive. I'm low GM and think I'll get used to it but it has caused me to lose sight of the minimap in the early game. I'd be concerned for weaker players trying this - maybe if you cut the drone babysitting. I'm hesitant to do that after some recent games where I paid 0 attention to them and had multiple drones triple stacked on close mineral patches, falling ~150 minerals behind.

[@josearmandogomezrocabado537]

The brain zerg us back

[@Tsanibus]

Lambo, just gave us replays

[@bigrid3554]

what about 16 overlord? (2 extractor tricks)

[@sakesaurus]

i did that :D

[@busTedOaS]

almost definitely worse than 15 overlord. you have to cancel both together which means you delay the first extractor cancel about 3 seconds.

[@sakesaurus]

@@busTedOaS also in my experience when you do something like this you get 1 base slaughtered

[@busTedOaS]

@@sakesaurus I don't think the overlord timing matters for that

[@blessyou3999]

If I want to play pool first, gas/pool/hatch. How was it: 14 ovi, then extractor trick and then the normal build? 17 gas/ 17pool/ hatch....

[@LamboSC2]

@blessyou3999 yep, exactly

[@yqq]

I said this many years ago but nobody listened. I'll never forget when I told idra like 12 yrs ago about doubling up on close mineral patches being a noticeable difference, and he dismissed it saying shit like that doesn't matter. I'm like bro there's literally no reason not to do it, there's nothing else going on, and you can clearly see how much quicker the close patch income is compared to far one if you just compare 1 drone on each

[@SquintyGears]

Stephano mentioned, BINGO! And, I can't believe they had to nerf the queen because of how powerful this discovery is. 😂😂😂

[@frugs9164]

I guess we all decided 13 Overlord was better than 15 Overlord back when we were 17 Hatching

[@LamboSC2]

@@frugs9164 for 17 hatch 14 overlord into extractor trick would've been the most efficient :D

[@nopiscougar]

if a larvae spawns off the hatch every 9 seconds or so, is there any merit to timing injects around this. meaning if your inject pops at 8 seconds are you losing larvae, where if it pops at 2 seconds the cooldown is less? i know its a small detail but ive wondered this forever and this vid seems to touch near the idea

[@enriquegarciacota3914]

I knew what this was about after the first phrase 😊. 15/15 is life

[@00jknight]

How sturdy is that pullup bar in the background? Just friction fit or is it screwed into studs?

[@LamboSC2]

Just friction fit

[@dylanramsay6553]

Is there any chance this depends on the mining rate of the main base, which can vary from map to map?

[@halqthedarktemplar]

Nooo but only brood war is supposed to have discoveries like this 😢😢😢🤓

[@Lukas-ii9kw]

Isn’t the 13 ovi very useful for defending canon rushes? When I went 15/15 in the past I felt like I had to drone scout my nat. Although as I’m writing this I realise that that’s hatch before ovi where this isn’t, so the ovi isn that much later

[@kevinmills3329]

Can you make a video about your guitar?

[@Voy2378]

Lambo you will not like this question, since it is PITA to execute, but is it worthwhile to transfer far distance drones from main to saturate near patches on natural asap?

[@LamboSC2]

it is most certainly not, because you lose a bunch of earlygame mining initially by doing that. This slows down your buildorder, so your third hatch would be delayed aswell as drone production/queen timings. So you would end up significantly behind by giving up the initial mining time that you lose by sending the drones from main to natural.

[@patrickmiller6236]

Is the extractor trick absolute??! Money video !

[@maxime_weill]

Niiice, guess who's gonna get diamond league this season?

[@FrogcuteSC]

I'm used to the 16-18-17 opener, with an ovie at 13. Does that mean instead I should go: -15 ovie -15 hatch -18 pool -17 gas... or am I missing the point entirely? I'm not all that good at SC2, so I feel like most of this video went way above my head... though I also only started playing SC2 Ladder about a year ago, so I feel like I'm still at the "monkey sees, monkey does" stage in my development 😅

[@LamboSC2]

No your buildorder after the overlord stays exactly the same, so it'd be 15 Overlord 16 Hatch 18 gas 17 Pool. If it's too complicated you can also continue with the 13 Overlord since it doesn't change that much after all!

[@kcoub]

its still the same build order in terms of buildings: -15 ovie -16 hatch -18 gas -17 pool

[@msrm55]

Ok, but what about 16overlord(2x extractor trick) or 16hatch before overlord?

[@33shin33]

Oh so this what zergs discuss in their Creep Chambers. Thank aiur you're missing out on mass hatch so the game is still playable for the other two races. See you around! *turns off oracle crystal ball

[@balanceofjudgement4282]

Hey Lambo. Can you give us a good build for anti-reaper , so that you have the queen everytime when the reaper arrives? Not everybody has top 1% micro, and that reaper always either cancels mining time by forcing zerg to micro drones for a few seconds or even kills drones in a worst-case-scenario. I've even seen this happen in pro-games where the reaper will cause a a drone or two to be pulled for 2-3 seconds -- which, by your words, means minerals lost. I feel like mathing for a game on paper is one thing, but it doesnt always account for the human interaction.

[@LamboSC2]

You can play 17 pool,17hatch or 15 hatch,15 overlord,15 pool if you're strugling with the first reaper!

[@balanceofjudgement4282]

@@LamboSC2 Very much appreciated. Thank you o7

[@JJV7243]

What was really missing from this video was quantification of your statements. Like a statement of - "build X is better than build Y" - needs to be explained by what metric. So, for example, "Comparing build X, Y and Z at the 2:30 mark we've gained/earned/have A, B, C respectively (assuming no interruptions). Thus - I'd recommend Y in most scenarios.

[@charliesprague2297]

i might try 15 OL but 14 seems way easier (no extractor trick) and almost as good, except i guess zvp 15 ol is clutch for the hatch block

[@MyshTheBoy]

I`ve tested this, and my reflex still making 13 overload in 50% of the games 😑

[@DistrictTerra]

Is this only since the hatch cost reduction?

[@LamboSC2]

It was more efficient before the hatch cost reduction already, it matters a little more now however to sync the larva of natural and main.

[@DistrictTerra]

@LamboSC2 so how does it take so long before someone actually tried to answer the question of what is the best true opening. I find it funny that this game has standards for like ten years and it's sub optimal.

[@mattanonysaurousrex]

Oh boy, Zergs are gonna get it when Harstem finds out... Also, to all balance whiners speaking in absolutes about what is broken let's keep this in mind. Sometimes everyone just copies and the answer isn't found until someone experiments. E.g. how broken was the infestor back in the day, and no-one used it for so long. Imagine giving that high dmg, full stun from underground infestor to today's pros.

[@AB-ck7gm]

So you are saying Nathanias was right?

[@bobyy6557]

the person who got casted out because he wasn't a fanboy of Serral??

[@fullfildreamz]

@@bobyy6557 wasn't he super toxic towards zerg players?

[@AhmadMohammadi-o9z]

SortOf already does this since more than 1 month and a half already, he takes 5 minutes every stream to say this guy in the chat found this with the larva and 14 overlord 14 extractor trick or 15 overlord is better, you get 1 larva faster and more minerals, nobody cares besides him 2-3 random diamond people and now the progamers come to steal credit one more time, nice. If you don't believe me then watch SortOf previous broadcasts, he upload them all on KZbin and the saddest thing is that all the Zerg progamers watch his streams regularly because he is the only guy playing late game ZvP while the others are busy whining about Protoss being too strong, none of played PTR tournaments besides HSC and theyre the one finding the cool stuff by themselves for sure ahahah and they dare dismissing protoss pros

[@LamboSC2]

It's funny cause i actually did give the guy a shoutout in this Video, he is Matt! He actually told me 14 overlord is better than 15, but he got the ball rolling regardless. I stumbled upon 15 overlord myself about a month and a half ago on the ptr server aswell, so about the same time that ricky did, but i am well aware that shin and Matt have been playing 14 overlord before me, and i am sure there are many others that did play 14 and 15 overlord. Also noone is stealing any credit, i made this video to educate my viewers :)

[@jimmusamma1635]

Queen nerf forces Zerg players to think about their build order FTFY

[@mothrahlurker788]

Absolute delusion.

[@logik1677]

Railgan taught me this 7yrs ago

[@pieroog]

3-roach for life!

[@ValDominator]

make politics videos

[@MTGandP]

I tested 13 vs 15 overlord with my diamond level mechanics to see if it's different for us regular folk. Here are the timings I got: 13 overlord: hatch @ 0:46 18/22 45 minerals @ 1:00 pool @ 1:12 hatch done @ 1:58 queens @ 1:59 25/28 35 minerals + 64 gas @ 2:00 26/28 70 minerals + 80 gas @ 2:05 15 overlord: hatch @ 0:47 18/22 24 minerals @ 1:00 pool @ 1:15 hatch done @ 1:59 20/28 414 minerals + 64 gas @ 2:00 queens @ 2:01* 26/28 44 minerals + 80 gas @ 2:05 *had money for queens at 1:59 but I built them late because idk, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention

[@MTGandP]

So I think 15 overlord is better because queen timings are the same (assuming I don't screw it up) and I had 26 minerals extra by 2:05

[@javierestevez9680]

first rdy to whine 😂😂

[@AntiDoctor-cx2jd]

it's definitely not perfected. Zerg build too many banelings. Banelings are supply efficient and cost inefficient, meaning they are only suitable for the late game. however if burrowed, they can also be cost-efficient and useful in the early game. It's way closer to perfected than P or T players are though. Terran can't even build all their units. T early game for some reason is mass the only unit they have that's bad against queens.

[@mikesavagetv]

I've atempted this execution more than 30 times and is not that easily executed, you need to have since the very start optimized mining with 8 drones in the closest mineral patches without screwing everything else. I wonder why you don't show the first seconds of the comparisons and why does it says "Lambo resumed playing" 06:25 xddd. Thanks but i'm sticking to the 13 overlord 16 hatch

[@LamboSC2]

well i did a normal drone split + dronemicro untill 13 supply and then resumed from replay for all 3 overlord timings. I did this, so i can have a fair test where all 3 games start with the exact same dronesplit and mining!

[@mikesavagetv]

​@@LamboSC2 I also did drone split + drone micro but my method isn't as efficient as yours. I tried many different patterns for the drone split but couldn't get the 8 drones in the close mineral patch at the first instance. I believe a tutorial on this execution would help cause for now this is a great threory craft but I believe that first part is very important since out of all my testing I couldn't put the hatchery earlier than 00:45 which is my regular timing for 13 overlord 16 hatch. The problem for this execution in my particular case is that the time invested in all the micro for the 15 overlord method I usually use it to set my camera hotkeys and my first overlord path depending on the matchup. I ended up with some questions of this supposed most efficient method. Doesn't this mean that your 2nd overlord would notice later any cannon rush setup? Does this apply to other maps where the natural mining doesn't give as much income as an optimal one (Amigdala vs Abyssal Reef) Do you really perfect drone split and micro in the first 3 seconds of the match for this method to be the best method?

[@Taunt61]

How zergs think about the game: ^ How terrans think about the game: What do you mean maths and strats, I'm playing League of Legends How protoss think about the game: I'm play the worst race :-( (Yes I made it to GM with sub 100 APM)

[@maxime_weill]

racist

[@HappyMuta]

This seems to be relevant to the 0.1% of the player base

[@kesatola3554]

I still remember that video when you roasted protoss players for not realizing how to open properly for n+ years. Kinda feels like karma for the same thing happening to the zergs now. Ty for sharing this knowledge.

[@busTedOaS]

to me, karma would be if a toss player had come up with this.

[@ike1218CA]

Lambo is so fucking smart, he is the smartest EU Zerg, Reynor IS the fastest, but Serral is best.

[@WhitePum4]

So no one tested this until now? Whilst i've done an immense amount of scientific testing and because im diamond no one thinks it's relevant.

[@Basrawulf]

i dont get it. whop cares. Evryone makes mistakes. Mine was that extra hot Pizza I just craped out. It realy hurts.

[@sebastienguanzon4978]

Nothing you said was a coherent reply to the video lol

[@Basrawulf]

@@sebastienguanzon4978 it was i joke and i dint understand the video. Who cares, just go mass zealolts every single game. It will be fine. Thtas how i got to 3000 mmr