6 reasons the gender critical right and the woke left are both WRONG about pronouns

Рет қаралды 611,738

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 12 000

@sazji Жыл бұрын

I lived for 14 years in Turkey, where the language has no gendered pronouns or grammatical gender at all. You can have a long conversation with someone without giving any clue about the gender of the person your discussing, and it won't count contrived at all. You can make a person's gender clear if you want or need to, but the language doesn't force your hand. Coming back to the US was kind of like walking into a minefield...

@k.umquat8604 Жыл бұрын

This sort of stuff was extremely confusing to me when I first learned about it as a Turkish person

@sazji Жыл бұрын

@@k.umquat8604 I'm sure! Heck, Turkish people have trouble remembering "he" and "she" at first. :-)

@k.umquat8604 Жыл бұрын

@@sazji As I used to in primary school

@sazji Жыл бұрын

@@k.umquat8604 Sadece ilkokulda olduysa tebrik ediyorum. :-)

@k.umquat8604 Жыл бұрын

@@sazji İngilizcem 5.-6. sınıflarda çok gelişti. Ondan beri böyle hataları neredeyse hiç yapmıyorum.

@trolleymouse Жыл бұрын

"what are your pronouns?" "Use whatever you think will confuse the person you're talking to the least. The less time you spend discussing my pronouns, the more time you can spend calling me fat."

@wheeze_sanchez 5 ай бұрын

I wasn't expecting that ending

@the_multus 4 ай бұрын

"Use whatever you think will confuse the person you're talking to the most"

@sorenkair 4 ай бұрын

one step forward, two steps back.

@frontiervirtcharter 4 ай бұрын

"His Majesty" and "Your Majesty" .. LOL

@Juan_rivera 3 ай бұрын

😂

@leiasleeping1282 Жыл бұрын

Most people I know who use gender neutral pronouns actually don’t share them a lot far as I know. They by large just state it in their social media bio and if the person in Dunkin Donuts or some old professor misgendered them they just won’t say anything. I imagine because it would be exhausting in everyday life and run the risk of encountering some mean people. And I’m in college art school (it won’t get any woker than that).

@Aster_Risk Жыл бұрын

It's also dangerous to push back. You don't know which people are safe and which are violent bigots.

@lynxaway Жыл бұрын

Oh hey, that’s me. Yeah, I don’t share unless there’s already a channel set up for me to do that (socmed bios, etc) OR I’m 110% sure it’ll go over well. Most situations… don’t fall into that.

@christopherjohnson9167 Жыл бұрын

same, in the art industry. I have a bunch of friends who are gender neutral. But almost all of their friends don't use their preferred pronoun of they/them. She/her just comes naturally, our brains are wired to categorize people as men and women, and I don't think you can just socially engineer society to change that aspect.

@Lawfair Жыл бұрын

It would also be exhausting for the "old professor" or the clerk at Dunkin Donuts... the professor has hundreds of different students each term, it's hard enough to remember all of their names and faces... meanwhile the clerk deals with thousands of people a week, in order to not offend them, they would need to start every interaction with "hello, welcome to ... my I have your pronouns and order please?"

@michaelgoetze2103 Жыл бұрын

If you are buying something from Dunkin Donuts a pronoun is irrelevant anyway because you don't use someone's pronoun in direct conversation with them.

@MtlCstr 2 ай бұрын

This whole issue reminds me of a friend from high school who made it her personal mission to break people from using, "you know," as filler in conversation. When someone dropped a meaningless "you know" she would interrupt the flow to say, "No, I don't know." After about a week no one would talk to her.

@bennyrodgers5702 Ай бұрын

Haha I remember in high school I tried to get people to stop saying "like" and I didn't have enough self awareness to realize I was being insufferable and they were just using a different verbal tick than me.

@summess5567 Ай бұрын

They sound interesting. How do we break people from saying "What I'm saying is" during TV interviews?

@ryan1840 23 күн бұрын

my boss says "you know what I mean?" incessantly as a filler when she's explaining/describing something

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

Why we used the word woman, man, boy, girl? To give information about the sex of a personn + the maturity stage. Thoose words were linked to clear objective descriptions, criteras, ideas. Now we have a full mess cult where not even the "gender experts" are able to tell what links the people with each others within the group woman, demi boy, non binary and all the made up gender labels anymore. What information does it give you about the personn? Well, none. So the point? Its all feeling but you cant despcribe the feeling, nor give the criteras, its an empty concept. Its not about the "body" nor the "biology" yet the reassignment surgery are linked to man as male body and woman as female body. Words are used to communicate, to show ideas, concepts, to represent soemthing, that their fucking point. When you have an individual "name" its in order to other to be able to call you, to identify you, and talk about you, the idea is "this individual I must be able to refer in order to talk about/to him specifically", it has a PURPOSE. Wtf are the purpose of the "so important I call it hate speach when not respected" pronoun and gender words as gender cultist define them? What clear information, you can represent in your head, what does it tell about the individual? And now people compare it with "gender" of objects to justify it, while the use and the concepts arent the same at all because we never linked it to sex as its not LIVING things, but to other ideas like feminine if the word is about the matter and masculine if its the profession and other logics. But for human it was meaningfull and used to represent a concrete, visible reallity. It's such a crazy world where you have to be super carefull with labels which means nothing at all and an "identity" of 0 characteristics. Btw I'm a horse because I feel like a horse and feeling like a horse is feeling like a horse, and I'm christian while not believing in bible nor jesus while praising severals gods because I feel like christian and that what make me christian because its my self identity and I choose which word fit the best in my head to describe it under the label I feel the best with. Fuck the logic, fuck the purpose of thoose words, and the world have to bend.

@nicolelee2205 6 күн бұрын

I would have supported you in this mission. @@bennyrodgers5702

@SydneyLarrikin-ci2vz Жыл бұрын

Calvin and Hobbes definition of pronoun: A noun that has lost its amateur status

@JediMobius Жыл бұрын

Classic.

@uutdiegodzilla3821 Жыл бұрын

I miss them so much! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

@davidgerowmusicchannel Жыл бұрын

hahahahahahahahahaha

@PrivateSi Жыл бұрын

But although an English pun in a silly cartoon, I think you'll find in reality Calvin and Hobbes both understood Latin so knew what the 'pro' prefix meant, as they grew up in Europe a few hundred years ago with Latin as the common intellectual language, not English. It's funny how stupid people like funny things that make them seem even more stupid when they parrot them!

@EamonWill Жыл бұрын

@@PrivateSi It's funny how stupid people write long winded, rambling comments that make no sense and think they sound smart.

@patrickhodson8715 Жыл бұрын

My step dad has asked me before if Spanish speakers think of objects as inherently masculine and feminine, and I've used a few different examples to explain it. My favorite is that "a beard" is feminine and "a dress" is masculine. A really good example that shows it's a purely grammatical category and has nothing to do with the objects themselves is that the same object might be feminine if you call it "a chair" but masculine if you call it "a seat." It's about the words, not the things themselves.

@charlytaylor1748 Жыл бұрын

people studying the Sapir Whorf theory concluded that if the 'gender' of an object influences the way French/German speakers think of them it does so very minimally.

@mrkiky Жыл бұрын

Yea but it's clear that they're masculine or feminine because people and animals actually ARE male or female. When you assign male or female gender to inanimate objects, it's arbitrary and stupid, but when assigning them to members of a sexually reproducing dimorphic species, through pronouns, it is a direct reference to their biological sex. Gendered pronouns don't refer to identities and never did, they refer to sex.

@prenomnom364 Жыл бұрын

So I guess if you're a biological male your pronouns would be "he", and if you're a biological female your pronouns would be "she" regardless of how stereotypically feminine or masculine you seem to be ?

@coledelong427 Жыл бұрын

My favorite is coño 😌

@YoureRightIThink Жыл бұрын

@@prenomnom364sí

@TheBunzinator 4 ай бұрын

Among the many examples of not having a grasp of this topic, my favourite is "I don't use pronouns."

@jonahl6447 4 ай бұрын

lol

@RunaCluster 4 ай бұрын

The "I" just chilling: "Ummm... Did you assume my grammatical role? 🙄"

@justakathings 4 ай бұрын

The funny thing is, the reason why people say this is because the word “pronoun” isn’t well understood by the general public, they’ve forgotten what it means because why would they need it. So when woke activists insist on using peoples pronouns, it’s always 3rd person pronouns they mention (for obvious reasons). So people with no linguistics education link 3P pronouns with just “pronouns”

@Erichwanh 4 ай бұрын

John 18:6: "Am"

@syntacticalcrab 4 ай бұрын

Past the grammatical irony level, I love that because there are plenty of agender and other non-binary people who literally don't use third-person pronouns, so I will perform malicious compliance with transphobes who say that, congratulate them on speaking up about their pronoun non-usage, welcome them to the community, and affirm that I will only refer to them individually by their names and not he, she, or any other singular pronoun.

@YourfriendRaymond 3 ай бұрын

I've gotta say that was really good. I'm a trans guy and there's actually another component the inclusive crowd gets really wrong with the whole "always use a person's correct pronouns all the time no matter what" rule and its safety. Every trans person decides who they tell, when, and how what their preferred forms of address are in a unique manner. The driving force of the differences is personal safety and mental/emotional safety. By insisting everyone always use the "correct" pronouns it robs us of the ability to navigate the process with the delicacy required.

@RoamingAdhocrat 3 ай бұрын

yeah - a friend and former colleague is nonbinary but couldn't come out at work because their team would've harassed them for it and the corporate HR was useless. A diktat came down that pronouns could be added to email bios and it was optional, which was good - I added mine but my friend didn't have to lie or invite that harassment. (we're both working in better places now)

@tabaxikhajit4541 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for that insight! Just because a friend identifies to me one way, I should know how they want to be identified in other settings outside of our relationship.

@Mehki227 3 ай бұрын

I would think that this would be quite obvious. Someone at my job kept coming over to my desk and ended up befriending me well it turns out the person is gay and was afraid in the workplace for anyone to know but trusted me. At that point I had already figured it out but totally understood the person's reluctance to reveal that. Besides that the person uses the pronoun that's traditionally assigned to that person sex but that's not the point it's the other person's prerogative to out themselves in certain situations, places, persons. And that is why I do not worry about pronouns if I misgender you, correct me, but do so politely. And I will be happy to come play. So far pronouns have not presented any problems in my life 🤷🏽‍♀️

@raindanse8466 3 ай бұрын

Working in pharmacy over forty years, it was not difficult to understand the trans world concept. We dispense the medicines for those changes. The entire process from beginning to new beginnings are highly personal, sensitive, and involves being very vulnerable. It is delicate and many people do not understand. So when my university was asking students pronoun preferences to me this was a privacy violations, all out in the open. It was a mess. Everybody is not included unless they are. This was suppose to be assisting the community rather, it kind of exposed them. I felt some kind of way about it but could not articulate mainly from my perspective to confidentiality.

@tesstesseract 3 ай бұрын

no one thinks “always use the correct pronoun even if it’s unsafe and puts the person i. danger. stop making up problems

@garydmcgath Жыл бұрын

"I failed a student for saying there are only two genders." "What are you, a woke fanatic?" "No, a German teacher."

@HxTurtle Жыл бұрын

alas, there's virtually no difference between English and German with regards to number. it's just that objects are gendered entirely arbitrarily; but that's about it.

@Merrsharr Жыл бұрын

@@HxTurtle In German there are 3 grammatical genders.

@idris_haris_al-kalima Жыл бұрын

@HxTurtle Жыл бұрын

@@PyroMancer2k lol

@HxTurtle Жыл бұрын

@@Merrsharr I think that's about what I said-did I? (German is my first language; so, it's not exactly made up theories outta boredom.)

@maljamin Жыл бұрын

In Thai, the FIRST-person pronouns are the gendered ones and not usually third-person. Which makes more sense in a way: puts it on me, not others, to express my identity. On the other hand in practice I felt strange calling myself "pom" (masculine) but there is no neuter option except in close company (essentially a "royal we"). In music and poetry the feminine first-person is common regardless of the singer/speaker. But I LOVED that third-person was neuter: everyone is kao. Ter is an option to distinguish females. Ter is also "you" in romantic context. It's weird and neat that a girl can say "we love her" to her boyfriend and he can say it back. I definitely am a fan of respecting the listener first, so first- and second-person are key, and even the global "We", perhaps my truest identity and value, grows out of that.

@RobespierreThePoof 3 ай бұрын

Interesting

@MoreCoffeePlease. 3 ай бұрын

This is very enlightening. Thank you for sharing.

@eesamees 2 ай бұрын

beautiful! when i heard the point he made about “when we tell people our pronouns we’re telling them how they should talk about us to other people” i was curious if any language genders first or second-person pronouns differently. that’s awesome!!!

@russellpierce3987 2 ай бұрын

this was something i at first found confusing when i visited Thailand, but now it makes a lot of sense to me

@qwertyasdfg2219 Ай бұрын

fellow countryman here, I use ผม (pom, "I (masculine)") only when I'm talking to those who are my elders. With my friends I use เรา (rao, "I / we") and with my sister I use เค้า (khao), which is the same word as, or a corruption of เขา, the gender neutral third-person pronoun. The great thing about Thai is that oftentimes we can bypass using ผม (pom) because the social relation between two persons takes precedence above everything else; talking to someone whose relationship to you is that he or she is a junior, you and your younger interlocutor simply refer to yourself and you as พี่ (phi, "term of address for someone older; senior") and you and the younger person self to them and themselves as น้อง (nong, "term of address for someone younger; junior"). When I talk to the lady selling food at the food market, she refers to me as หนู (nu, "term of address which someone who is old enough to be your aunt uses for you") and I refer to her as ป้า (pa, literal means "aunt").

@taradinoc 4 ай бұрын

13:55 I'm so glad someone else is saying this. I started a new job before I was out, and during orientation, everyone went around introducing themselves with pronouns (all of which were obvious from their appearance). When it was my turn, I was the only person not to include pronouns... because at that point, it would've meant either misgendering myself, or outing myself to a bunch of strangers before I'd even told my family. Some of them probably thought I was taking a stand against inclusivity, even though there's a good chance I was the only member there of the group they thought they were including!

@estherbosbach377 3 ай бұрын

Good to know

@Will140f 3 ай бұрын

I like to call this “aggressive inclusivity.” It is well-intentioned but ultimately dumb as hell in the way it’s carried out

@Ms_Princess_Zelda 3 ай бұрын

Aggressive inclusivity (I like that) is almost worse than non inclusive imho (I’m a trans woman) and I still don’t know how to feel about it. Just because someone proclaims their pronouns on introduction, if there is a genuine group of NB individuals with neopronouns, I’m sorry I can’t remember them as I am bad with names no less more things to remember on top of that, not for a lack if trying. When its a room of straight cis people it starts to wear on my resolve. GNC people share and I am for it. If you’re gender conforming I just wonder why….

@PuzzleQodec 3 ай бұрын

That's just so ironic. Thank you for sharing that.

@Rybe33 3 ай бұрын

this exact same thing happened to me. Every time I brought it up pre (and sometimes post!) transition I'd pretty much get yelled at for not understanding the plight of trans people (or later once I was out, for not understanding nonbinary people)...very frustrating! Normalizing people presenting their pronouns is one thing, demanding answers is quite another!

@korriebarnes6940 3 ай бұрын

Man, I absolutely love your channel. As a language teacher I have always said “words matter” and that’s because they are the tools we use to build a world of meaning and understanding between us. At the foundation of our interactions has to be respect (a desire to uphold the dignity of yourself and the other person). Too often our conversations around this topic and honestly so many others are competitive not constructive. Thanks for educating us not just on how language works but giving us a world class lesson in respect. That’s how communication happens!

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

@jadedtwin Жыл бұрын

As a transwoman, this is the best video I've seen on the subject. Too many armchair youtubers weigh in on pronouns, so it's refreshing to see a linguist tackle a linguistic issue.

@EchoLog Жыл бұрын

As a detransitioned still nonbinary linguist who wishes English would remove masc/fem and add inclusive/exclusive, same. If you reply to this, tagging me especially, knowingly disagreeing, without asking me questions about what I mean; I look down at you and feel not like an asshole for it. Use your brain, library, elders, and internet more.

@AmberPremo Жыл бұрын

Same! I though this was really interesting and made some good points. The only point I took issue with was when stating that he wouldn’t be offended if someone used she when referring to him. Let’s be real, MOST men, maybe not all, would quite unsterstandably take that as a dig against their masculinity and react negatively.

@bigfat4172 Жыл бұрын

@@AmberPremo you might be right. I will say that at least in my personal circle of people, including me, my cis dude friends don't really have a pronoun preference either.

@JediPlays0309 Жыл бұрын

hey fellow transfem Emily lol

@manub.3847 Жыл бұрын

@@AmberPremo don't forget, he was talking about the situation when others are talking about you and you're usually not there at all.

@NickCombs Жыл бұрын

For me, the first step is assuming everyone is trying their best and mistakes are expected.

@EamonWill Жыл бұрын

lol, that is a false assumption! I know what you're saying though. If someone seems to be trying then give them the benefit of the doubt. But a significant portion of this world has made it very clear that they will not respect anyone different.

@echiko4932 Жыл бұрын

Better than assuming everyone's malicious i suppose.

@Lamont_Smythe Жыл бұрын

I don't have to try, I'll just describe you as I see you.

@Ekitchi0 Жыл бұрын

@@EamonWillit's not an assumption set in stone, it's until you get to know the person better. It's simply presumption of innocence. If someone shows malice, obviously you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. Presumption of innocence is the basic requirement for a civil society. When we let presumption of guilt run things you get chaos.

@MarkHansen Жыл бұрын

This is so true, even in broader aspects of life, not just pronouns.

@ulrike9978 Жыл бұрын

In terms of grammatical gender in other languages, I love how "girl is neuter" is always the example for how German is illogical - it's actually one of the very few examples that follow a clear rule: the German word Mädchen is a diminutive of basically the same word as English "maid" for a young woman (so a very very young woman) and diminutives are always neuter in German. My favourite example of gender nonsense in German is actually cutlery - knife is neuter, spoon is male and fork is female :-)

@SmallSpoonBrigade Жыл бұрын

The rule there isn't really what people think. German has genders and most of the time the gender comes from the ending. So, you get the rule that pretty much anything ending in -chein is neuter regardless of what the original word was. Similarly, the feminine word Frau becomes neuter when you attach -lein to the end, so Fräulein is neuter. Without a general rule like that, the language would be an absolute nightmare to speak or write without a computer as you'd have to memorize all the genders of the words rather than just a substantial minority of them. Also, I think it's unfortunate that the term gender was chosen to represent these changes as in very few, if any, languages is there a 1 to 1 match between gender of the word and gender of the object to which it refers.

@KangMinseok Жыл бұрын

People who use German to make a point about (third person) personal pronouns don't actually understand German.

@KangMinseok Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup If only Germans wouldn't re-interpret so much nonsense from the US... "das Gendern" with "*innen" is a bastardisation of language if I've ever seen one.

@KangMinseok Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup what if xe/xers tomorrow decide that all their words describing them should be neutral and end in "-ax"... das Täterax hat xer ermordet. How many inclusionary fantasies does one need to indulge before enough is enough b s.

@KangMinseok Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup slippery slope fallacy is about an alleged chain reaction. My argument wasn't a chain, it was simply that the same logic could apply to different scenarios. The underlying question is simple: Where are the limits of language inclusivity? It's not a slippery slope to shine light on a lack of clarity when it comes to the rules we apply. Not every event must have already occurred for us to account for it, otherwise any form of risk management would inherently be a slippery slope fallacy (which it isn't). But even if it were the case that an event must first occur before we consider its implications, then hereby I identify as a xe/xer and demand this language change in the name of inclusivity (I'm The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster of gender).

@jordicorfont 2 ай бұрын

I am a high school teacher in a roman language country. I had a student with a female name and wanted to be refered not only with male pronouns but with male articles. I was so difficult for me because after saying a clearly gendered noun my articles would follow as female. He complained several times because I would slip and use female articles. . . . I avoided refering to him as much as possible. I have no problem with him wanting to be refered as male, but the mental gimnastics to change the articles was exhausting. . . . I refered as "him" all this time with no problem in english. On the other hand, Another trans student changed his name to a masculine one and I didn't even noticed he was trans at first. I could use all the articles and pronouns correctly without even thinking. I understand the struggle of the trans people, but it is greatly appreciated when you make it easy to be respectuful to you. Great video by the way.

@janegardener1662 2 ай бұрын

It's not respect they are seeking; it is deference.

@El3ctr0Lun4 2 ай бұрын

⁠@@janegardener1662Not always. Sometimes people have a name that’s most commonly used for the other gender. I had a boy in my class in school named Irinel, which is a male name in my region of the country, but a female name in another region of the country. Normally this wouldn’t be an issue, but there were some professors who kept making the mistake of referring to him as a girl - either by using feminine pronouns or calling “miss Irinel” to the blackboard. Now as a boy, this was annoying to him, although by the end he was already used to it and wasn’t phasing him anymore. But do you think that his annoyance was because he wanted deference, or just because he didn’t like being called a girl when he wasn’t one?

@janegardener1662 2 ай бұрын

@@El3ctr0Lun4 My given name is also gender neutral. It never bothered me when people misgendered me. I corrected them and we all moved on. They made a simple mistake and I offered a simple correction. No feelings were hurt during this interaction.

@El3ctr0Lun4 2 ай бұрын

@@janegardener1662 Yes, and that's fine. Some people are more emotional than others.

@janegardener1662 2 ай бұрын

@@El3ctr0Lun4 Yes, and we don't have to spend our lives walking on eggshells because a few people are emotional. Neither "he" nor "she" is a slur.

@SurprisedPika666 Жыл бұрын

It's technically not a gendered word but I always find the term "Drama Queen" interesting because it can be used to refer to men and women.

@sazji Жыл бұрын

It started out in the gay community to refer to a particular type of "queen." :-)

@awesomedez Жыл бұрын

Eeh, it can be seen as emasculating to use it against a male

@sazji Жыл бұрын

@@awesomedezYes, it's still a gender-loaded term.

@powerofk Жыл бұрын

@@sazji Which is why, usually, when referring to boys, we'll usually say "Drama King" instead. Which pretty much means, you're a guy, so "King", but you're acting like a drama queen regardless.

@sazji Жыл бұрын

@@powerofk Never heard that!

@blotski Жыл бұрын

Ah, at last. A real advantage of speaking Finnish!! 🇫🇮

@barrysteven5964 Жыл бұрын

In case anyone isn't aware - Finnish has just one pronoun which doesn't differentiate between masculine or feminine - 'hän' (she/he) or colloquially 'se' (which actually originally meant 'it' but is used in conversation for he and she too). I believe it's a similar situation in Hungarian and Turkish.

@marcmonnerat4850 Жыл бұрын

Or Turkish I guess

@justmeandthethree Жыл бұрын

I knew a Finnish girl in college. She was hot.

@thinksie Жыл бұрын

Mandarin having 3 different characters for He他 She她 It它, but pronouncing them exactly the same - tā. lol

@jwhippet8313 Жыл бұрын

@@barrysteven5964 ő in Hungarian.

@lufang438 3 ай бұрын

Printer is male in German (drucker), but female in French (imprimante). Sometime I worry they might make baby printers together and put Xerox out of business.

@elevenseven-yq4vu 2 ай бұрын

😂

@rdfrancis455 2 ай бұрын

Xerox won the battle to not have photocopying referred to as Xeroxing. Naturally, today saying you Xeroxed something would probably confuse most people. One would probably say that the item was “Canoned.”

@nodoboho Ай бұрын

@@rdfrancis455 I still say it all the time! Occasionally, I have had to explain it to young folk. To me, saying I want to "copy" something, could mean I intend to whip out a pencil or pen and _copy_ the relevant info, so I say "I want to _xerox_ it" to ensure I am being clear that I need to bring it to a copy machine and will make an identical copy of it.

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

@koyuki6113 Жыл бұрын

I honestly enjoy the japanese ways of pronouns a lot, no one really misgenders you (mostly) cuz they just refer to you by your name or a different type of group which is normally not gender, and you your self can give personality to your first person pronoun.

@はなびがく花火学 Жыл бұрын

I wish that was always the case but they do hit you with that -chan -kun. Nothing more painful than being called deadname-chan. It does help a lot that you can gender your speech a lot more though. The speech of a woman or a man is pretty identical in English, but in Japanese you can often tell the gender of someone just by seeing what they’ve said written down

@leilatimeful Жыл бұрын

I’ve always wanted to refer to myself as 俺 (in casual interactions, not at the office), but I would get some wild looks if I did that. The cognitive dissonance would be too much for people. I’ve always found Japanese 1st-person pronouns a little uncomfortable because none of them feel quite right for me. 🤔

@ancalyme Жыл бұрын

Except kare and kanojo are he and she when the person is not present, it's just that defaulting to names doesn't sound as weird as in English

@Sally-zb4rs Жыл бұрын

@@ancalyme Most of the times kare and kanojo are not used though. Usually you put the persons name and then drop the topic like instead of saying “Sarah ate an apple. She thought it was good” they would say “Sarah ate an apple. Thought it was good” where is was implied that I am still talking about Sarah. Kanojo especially is avoided because it can also mean girlfriend so it is usually used in that sense. That is why Koyuki said mostly, because while they do have pronouns they don’t use them nearly as often as we do.

@yakopc6600 Жыл бұрын

@@Sally-zb4rs Oh that's interesting

@aussiegordon847 Жыл бұрын

One thing I’ve thought about with pronouns that you skimmed right next to with new pronouns is that, if everyone has their own, then it would simply be easier to solely refer to people with their name. If you’re telling a story, or example, and there are six people in the story with their own pronouns, the only options would be to give a list of each person’s pronouns mid-story and hope that the listener remembers while risking the chance that they won’t follow the story at all, or just use the people’s names and exclude pronouns.

@tennesseedarby5319 Жыл бұрын

Yeah, and that just sounds ridiculous. I think that people who insist on having their own pronoun are a bit unreasonable, as that is just saying “you aren’t allowed to use any pronouns for me, and here is a second name you can use instead.” We should just as a society pick a whole set of neopronouns and use them when we need to

@tennesseedarby5319 Жыл бұрын

@Amarok eh, I can also see the usefulness of having xe/xim or something like it, essentially a genderless third person singular pronoun. The usefulness of differentiating it from they is that there wouldn’t be any confusion about referring to multiple people or just one. Or they could work because we already use it in a similar manner. I have a feeling there will eventually be a standard that naturally arises, and we’ll all just go with that

@Best_Blake Жыл бұрын

@Amarok I feel uncomfortable when calling people it it just feels so dehumanizing

@ksara2883 Жыл бұрын

Generally I'm using pronouns to refer to a person when they aren't there. I'll stick with he, her or they. If the person in referencing wants stomething else, or I don't know their preferred pro nouns and they present in a non gendered or opposite gendered way, I'll use they. To me it's important to also be able to communicate clearly. And sometimes that means using pronouns the person I'm talking to understands, not who the person I'm taking about would prefer and is not present. My partner's sibling views themselves as non binary. I refer to them as they, and the other ways I've just mentioned. If for some reason they come up in a conversation I will try to stick to this unless it's going to cause confusion. People who don't know my partner's sibling will often be confused when I say my partner's sibling. And for an inconsequential conversation about a person that isn't there and will never meet the person I'm taking about, I'll just say sister or she. The conversation doesn't need to be derailed by a person going "huh" or me having to explain they are non binary, what that means and possibly an exchange of opinions on the whole trans thing. Especially if it's just a verbal conversation with a stranger about our familys and having partner's, x number of siblings, etc. Or a person who doesn't agree at all with pronouns and trans issues and has their mind made up and believes their opinion is right. (I'm just not interested in having a debate with a person who has made up their mind that trans people aren't people or don't exist or are trying to control and censor language. Especially when they are talking about my friends and family who I care about. I'm not going to provoke that reaction. Especially over a general question of "does your parter come from a big family?") Personally I think if someone is offended by how I use pronouns well that's a them problem to resolve. I'm being polite by using non gendered language where I can and it's appropriate. I use it also to avoid getting the he/she wrong. To me it is like swearing. Not everyone likes it. If I'm around a person who hates swearing then I won't swear. But when I'm not around them I'll swear as much as it suits me and is appropriate for the context I'm in. Or like calling a person a name they don't like. If the jerk doesn't like being called a jerk then I'm not going to call them that when they are around. I will say they are a jerk when they aren't present. (FYI I'm not claiming trans people are jerks. They aren't. PEOPLE can be jerks and and sometimes it is appropriate to communicate this to other people. Gender identity is irrelevant to how big of a jerk a person is). Yes it is respectful to call people what they want to be called. It's not the only important aspect in communicating. Sometimes clear communication is also important. Context of the situation is important. The audience of the conversation is also important. Or in short, multiple things can be important with different degrees of importance to balance. To me there is no point in telling a story where you have to hash out a list of who has what specific pronoun at the start of the story, to immediately lose your audience's understanding of what the story is all about. And there is doubly no point if the tangent becomes a trans debate instead of about the story you were trying to communicate.

@yeetghostrat Жыл бұрын

I used to try to do that, and still mostly do it when speaking out loud, but I got layed into over it being annoying and demeaning.

@derrymoore7101 Жыл бұрын

As a fellow Sociolinguist and someone who has deep relationships with folks from across a very broad socio-political spectrum, I think this video is absolutely fantastic! Thoughtful, insightful, and respectful. Definitely subscribing and look forward to more of your content!

@adriant240 Жыл бұрын

You clearly are not in touch with the whole political spectrum. You haven't even reached the centre, much less the Right wing. But keep pretending like you know what you're talking about.

@jocoder255 Жыл бұрын

I figured out I was trans because my sociology teacher taught me the definition of gender identity XD

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

@emmacurtis2270 3 ай бұрын

Appreciate the dog-whistle terms in this video's title that will hopefully prompt people of all sides of the political spectrum to watch it and learn the objective truth about this topic--very well done video!

@maanvis81 Жыл бұрын

I have no problems remembering someone's gender, but I do sometimes have trouble remembering someone's pronouns. So if the pronouns align with the gender (he/him for male, they/them for non-binary, and she/her for female) then I will automatically choose the right pronouns. If they have chosen different pronouns it gets difficult, especially since almost no one chooses pronouns in all the languages of the world , only in their native language. And since I'm bilingual I've got to translate those pronouns too (which with more obscure pronouns is simply impossible) ;). Also , I'm a bit autistic and was bullied before, so 'doing things wrong in social interactions' freaks me out..

@SmallSpoonBrigade Жыл бұрын

That's mostly because people are inventing new ways of doing it that lack any sort of standards. We've had basically 4 pronouns for the 3rd person in English for quite a while now, we have he, she, it and they. (As in the singular they, not the plural they) A lot of it looks suspiciously like an attempt at trolling as one would need to be specifically educated in not just what it means, but also how to pronounce them.

@reachandler3655 Жыл бұрын

@Chris L As an older person, I struggle using 'it' as a pronoun for a person. 'It' is for inanimate objects, or an insult. I don't even use 'it' for animals.

@SmallSpoonBrigade Жыл бұрын

@@reachandler3655 IKR, but if somebody asks, you're kind of stuck as not making a sincere attempt is even less respectful.

@CaptainLuckyDuck Жыл бұрын

@@reachandler3655 For me, using "it" when referring to someone when I was growing up was considered incredibly rude, hurtful, and hateful. "It" meant that the person in question wasn't considered fit enough to even be referred to as human- you were useless and unwanted. I don't personally know anyone who goes by "it", but if I did, I would feel I was being unkind to them. Edited because that was a syntactical mess. T-T

@reachandler3655 Жыл бұрын

@@SmallSpoonBrigade But is demanding someone use an insult respectful?

@franciswall Жыл бұрын

In Finnish we don't have gendered third person singular pronouns, just one formal (hän) and one informal (se) neutral pronoun for everyone. The informal one translates to "it" so yeah, we go around calling each other "it" and nobody bats an eye. In Finnish we usually automatically assume that whoever is mentioned first is also being mentioned first in the following sentence. So if I say "Mark didn't like what Pete said, so he hit him" I would automatically assume that Mark is the one doing the hitting. In cases where they are not mentioned in the same order, we would specify it by using the name again in the next sentence, like for example "Pete said something Mark didn't like, so Mark hit him". As for the "Alice in the mirror" part, we would likely say "Alice saw [one's self] in the mirror and liked [what one saw]". The fact that romance languages insist on gendering such simple, everyday statements feels so weird from a Finnish viewpoint!

@smalltalk3284 11 ай бұрын

Opinions. Everyone got one

@franciswall 11 ай бұрын

@@smalltalk3284 My comment had 0 opinions, it was all factual statements from a Finnish point of view.

@smalltalk3284 11 ай бұрын

ok@@franciswall

@RobespierreThePoof 8 ай бұрын

Finnish grammar is a beautiful thing. Most speakers of other European languages (excluding Estonian and Hungarian and presumably the Sapmi languages) see Finnish and only think it looks impossibly difficult. They are wrong. It's music.

@matheuscastello6554 8 ай бұрын

from a romance language speaker, i also find it weird that romance languages insist on gendering simple statements

@ktiger32698k Жыл бұрын

So I'm Vietnamese American, and I'm so happy to have come across a video that so well articulates my experience and struggle with the whole debate around gender. I too am on the side of compassion and empathy (especially given that so many of my friends are trans or nonbinary), but I also have friends and family who really struggle with alternate pronouns. In my experience, Vietnamese culture is very collectivistic, while I think American culture tends more individualistic, which is something I've explained to friends before when talking about my upbringing, but I never thought about how that carries over into linguistics and pronouns specifically. Vietnamese pronouns, like in many other Asian cultures, specify the speaker's relationship to the subject, so it gets a bit more complicated than just he/she/they... Anyhow, this has got me thinking hahaha

@rexsceleratorum1632 Жыл бұрын

How are "so many" of your friends trans or nonbinary, is it because you work at a trans club or something, or is this an example of the alleged social contagion some people are talking about? Also assuming that many of these people are not going to have heterosexual marriages, is the US going to face a population crunch soon?

@ktiger32698k Жыл бұрын

@@rexsceleratorum1632 I just happen to run in a lot of very queer spaces hahaha. Online spaces especially (at least the ones I'm active in) tend to have a lot of folks who identify as lgbtq+. My area of study isn't population statistics or anthropology, so I'm not entirely confident on speculating on the USA's population growth, but I do believe it's slowing down, at least compared to the last century or so. I wouldn't ascribe that to the normalization of lgbtq+ necessarily though, but to a whole list of things.

@get_that_money664 Жыл бұрын

@rexsceleratorum1632 since the mid-late 20th century the population grew bombastically, plus there is still a small amount of lgbt people in the real world. Population crunches can happen by very specific chains of biological or biologically-involved disasters (droughts, floods, famine, etc.)

@rexsceleratorum1632 Жыл бұрын

@@ktiger32698k Ah. Online "friends".

@yokhojota6792 Жыл бұрын

"a bit more complicated" A BIT MORE ?! Are you kidding ? It's hell... :)

@Lynn.Panadero4242 2 ай бұрын

I’m a CIS male married to a CIS female with three children. An adult trans woman, an adult non binary youth, and a CIS male older teen. Pronouns in our life over the last 4-5 years have been quite an adventure. I disclose this only to clarify the points I’m making in this post. Usually, I introduce my family as my wife, daughter, mid-kid, and son. To learn to refer to our trans daughter as she/her with her new name took quite a bit of time, but I feel that we have done so. I can easily now refer to my daughter and her girlfriend in (insert other city here, trying not to dox ourselves too much). I don’t use the term trans on a regular basis. She’s my daughter. With my youngest, there isn’t anything to modify. He’s my son. It was a bit problematic with my non binary second born who prefers the pronouns they/them. With time I learned to use they/them frequently, but often slip and use their dead pronouns. The other issue was what to use in place of son/daughter. They suggested child, but I felt that child was a bit diminutive. They will always be my baby, but after all they are an adult now. I wanted to respect that. Being a middle child, married to a middle child, and addressing my middle child, I never miss a chance to bring that fact up. (It’s a middle child thing.) We came up with Mid-kid and love it. Most people understand it as well. It’s interesting that I can now discuss my mid-kid without bringing gender into the conversation at all. For them gender doesn’t matter. For those I talk to, I don’t press the issue of pronouns for them (those I’m talking to). Many that knew them before will continue to use the dead pronouns, others will just pick a pronoun set and go with it. I know that I’m doing well when someone chooses the opposite pronouns. I don’t correct them, I let them run with it. I loved your discussion in this video; you have great suggestions about how to look at the issue from all angles. There is one great angle that you brought up that I had never actively considered before: the way I use pronouns for someone not present while considering the person to whom I am speaking. In these situations I have always been concerned about continuing to use the correct pronoun set. Some times it is uncomfortable when I am speaking to someone that knew my kids when they were younger. I still feel compelled to use the correct pronoun set, but now understand that in some instances, I do owe the courtesy to my listeners to at least acknowledge my selection of pronouns. I agree that it is inconsiderate to leave my listener confused. It’s also ineffective communication. Thanks for your explanation.

@shadow14805 2 ай бұрын

My sister is a cisgender woman, but I'm calling her "mid-kid" in conversations from now on, lol. That's just a brilliant term.

@Janny_Gurrrl 2 ай бұрын

I love your candor and approach to the issue within your family! It’s refreshing to see people face the pronoun puzzle with such respect and a sprinkling of humor. We are all learning - some more willingly than others (looking at the folks referenced around 16:10 in). 😊👍🏼

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

CIS male => what we used to call man, a male human, or as he's teen, a boy. trans woman => what we used to call a trans boy, a male human who perform and act in society to "look like" a woman (a female human). non-binary => doesnt give any information about the personn so theres really 0 point to say "non binary". Could be a male or a female. Can appear with social norms of a man or a woman, a total mess worse than the two ideas above. Why we used the word woman, man, boy, girl? To give information about the sex of a personn + the maturity stage. Thoose words were linked to clear objective descriptions, criteras, ideas. Now we have a full mess cult where not even the "gender experts" are able to tell what links the people with each others within the group woman, demi boy, non binary and all the made up gender labels anymore. What information does it give you about the personn? Well, none. So the point? Its all feeling but you cant despcribe the feeling, nor give the criteras, its an empty concept. Its not about the "body" nor the "biology" yet the reassignment surgery are linked to man as male body and woman as female body. And now people compare it with "gender" of objects to justify it while the use and the concepts arent the same at all...have fun with your gender fanatics family, where you have to be super carefull with labels which means nothing and an "identity" of 0 characteristics. Btw I'm a horse because I feel like a horse and feeling like a horse is feeling like a horse, and I'm christian while not believing in bible nor jesus while believing theres severals gods because I feel like christian and that what make me christian because its my self identity and I choose which word fit the best in my head to describe it.

@p4umaya Жыл бұрын

I have a cousin who came out as trans to me and my brother, but didn't want the rest of our family to know. So I've been making mental gymnastics to cover him when there's family around and then switch pronouns when we are alone. It's possible to do this but it's really hard to nail it every single time I talk about him or to him. Especially since we talk in spanish and adjectives don't make this any easier

@FQT_Keller-Ash Жыл бұрын

omg thx for being such a great ally!!!

@jamesphillips2285 Жыл бұрын

Not a linguist but I think the technical term is "code switching". It can be exhausting. But making the effort is probably appreciated by your cousin.

@corneliahanimann2173 Жыл бұрын

I feel at home with this comment! I would not intentionally use a pronoun that would hurt who I am talking to, but please if I ever end up doing that, don't jump to the conclusion that I am descriminating you, there are just days where my brain is a representation of a leaky sieve. I too have been exposed to a society that made me associate certain features of a person with a certain gender, and sometimes that understanding is woven into my subconscious. I am trying my best. It's amazing that you were keeping up with the pronouns situation honestly, I don't know if I would do well with that.

@_Sixthstep Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm in a similar position in a couple of situations, the trans people I know are actually pretty easy-going about pronouns but I'm from a generally pretty traditional Christian community and so if they come up in conversation I'm constantly having to make judgment calls about whether it is safe to use people's preferred pronouns out of respect and support for them, or whether doing so would actually bring more trouble their way than it would be worth.

@Flippylover_69 Жыл бұрын

As a trans guy myself, I’m sure your cousin appreciates you immensely. My mother has to do the same thing with me around certain unaccepting family members and it gets exhausting for everyone. I wish we just lived in a world where trans people could just exist without having to hide their transness, but unfortunately that’s not the world we live in. I’m sure your cousin feels the same, he’s lucky to have such supportive family around him who’s willing to put in the effort to show him he’s respected and loved.

@andrewhalyburton5990 4 ай бұрын

Bro really tried to convince us “bro” wasn’t a pronoun

@LedgerBalance 4 ай бұрын

Surprised? Bro be speaking that boomer English.

@restfulCube8035 4 ай бұрын

bro as a pronoun is a just a whitewashed version of the n word as a pronoun

@AroluciB 4 ай бұрын

@@restfulCube8035 What did bro mean by this?

@restfulCube8035 4 ай бұрын

@@AroluciB bro addressed the n word as a pronoun in his video. bro as a pronoun is a variant of the same feature

@RichardMurray 4 ай бұрын

Bro was all like "Naaaa" and I was like "Totally!"

@pretty.odd. Жыл бұрын

This is so interesting AND helpful! I've been learning Korean for a while, in part, through Zoom. When I go to class, I always try my best to assimilate as much as possible to the culture in my mannerisms, behavior, etc. because that informs the language. That said I do still always have my name and pronouns in my title because it's polite to do so here in America. One day, it was just me in class, and afterward my teacher asked me if I had time for a question. She asked why everyone has "she/her" etc. on Zooms and at conferences. Even though I'm comfortable with pronouns and discussion of them is very normal for the sub-cultures I exist in, and even though I was explaining in English, I was suddenly struggling to explain it to my Korean teacher and couldn't understand why. This video made me realize it must have been because I was having to explain this very Western & English individualist concept to someone from a community centered culture who speaks a language without gendered pronouns. The cultural component is definitely something we don't think about but it makes it all so much more interesting!!

@JussiPeltola Жыл бұрын

In international situations the pronouns can help, because sometimes finding out the gender of a foreign person from the name is impossible. I agree with this, but as a speaker of a language without gendered pronouns, I do see the anglocentric pronoun discussion as a bit annoying.

@boyishmallard9404 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 its not that serious calm down

@biglexica7339 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 social marxist?

@weirdredstone42 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 can i have a source?

@pretty.odd. Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 ok

@JoelReid 2 ай бұрын

As a male teacher I have been accidentally called Miss, Mrs, Mum, Auntie, and "Mi... uhhh... sir". I usually ignore it all, i know they are trying to communicate respect, and the respect is what matters, not the pronoun. if I were to correct them, then i would be communicating my authority over them, which is not necessary when they are trying to respect me already, and especially not necessary when they are trying to seek help. And that is what language is about, communication. When you use pronouns, what are you truly trying to communicate?

@elevenseven-yq4vu 2 ай бұрын

🤗

@LoloB-gi7lm 18 күн бұрын

@bruhdabones Жыл бұрын

I got so accustomed to using gender neutral pronouns when I was younger because I didn’t want my brother to make fun when I was talking with girls. It just comes naturally now.

@seanbirch Жыл бұрын

And he didn't make fun of you for always using gender neutral pronouns?

@bruhdabones Жыл бұрын

@@seanbirch oddly, no. This was back in middle school so I’m sure it just didn’t click for him.

@thedudeamongmengs2051 Жыл бұрын

@@seanbirchthe idea that gender neutral pronouns are bad or weird is really really new. Using gender neutral pronouns has only become something people make fun of because gender issues became political issues. I don't think there was a single person who would argue with the use of singular they in english prior to the year 2000

@Ice_Karma Жыл бұрын

@@thedudeamongmengs2051 Actually, people have been arguing about it almost as long as it's been a thing, which is 700-odd years... *facepalm*

@mimimosa259 Жыл бұрын

I used to use gender neutral pronouns as a kid when I didn’t know the gender of the person I was talking about it

@Eternal_Songbird 4 ай бұрын

This video demonstrates EXACTLY why I re-thought my entire approach to explaining pronouns to people that are reluctant to change. I worked with a guy, James. He would always roll his eyes at different pronouns and such. I could have gone on a tirade to force him to use pronouns like many are wont to do, but that's not effective at all. Instead I broke it down like this. "One's pronouns are an extension of their identity, same way their name is. Your name is James, correct? Not J, not John, Jimmy, Jake, etc. Your name is James and you do not like it when people address you something else." He says yes. And from there I explained to him that exact feeling he gets when people don't respect calling him James is the exact way people like me feel when addressed as something else. And I further stressed that, "hey, you might not understand why people want to go by something else than what you perceive. But you don't have to. All they're asking is that you respect that they don't want to be called _____, in the same way you don't want to be called by a name other than James." And THAT resonated with him. Now he doesn't scoff or roll his eyes at pronoun usage. He still gets it wrong sometimes, but he makes an effort and is trying to respect others' preferences. And I think that makes all the difference.

@k.c1126 4 ай бұрын

Half of the problems we have with each other are illustrated by your story... People trying to be right vs people trying to communicate.

@soup9911 4 ай бұрын

Good work 👍

@Blokfluitgroep 4 ай бұрын

Nice story, but you forgot the point in the video that points out that for some people it really is hard to process things like: Where is Alice? O there *they are. It IS not easy to change pronouns. It is like trying to speak a different accent or to force yourself to use youse for plural you. It is even worse if people are constantly correcting you if you misused you for more people, since it should be youse. Don't forget it is really really nice that people try to learn a new dialect just for one person and that you should be really really gratefull for that. Also, accept the fact that it is very very tiring for people to constantly speak that new dialect.

@lyr1kn156 4 ай бұрын

Problem is the entire world isn't gonna agree on this subject. People pushing back so extremely are as bad as those pushing preferred pronouns as a universal fact, even to those that aren't going to accept it. I do not, and will not use neo-pronouns, I also do not interact with people that identify as non-binary because I refuse to care about keeping on top of remembering to refer to them appropriately all the time, when these people will usually get angry or upset, when in reality they need to accept it is not a common way to refer to a singular person exclusively. I don't hate them, it's just too annoying to change my behaviour for the sake of someone I do not know nor do I interact with enough for it to stick.

@andyu245 4 ай бұрын

That's how I was convinced to use and respect pronouns that didn't match what I saw at first glance. It's a great empathy excercise, I find it helps you see clearly how the other person is feeling and why it's important to them. I would add that, yes, for us it is hard to adapt because we have to think harder when we interact with that particular person, but maybe they get misgendered all day. We don't realize our collective impact on people who get misgendered often. It's definitely worth it making the effort and being a little uncomfortable from time to time, for the sake of other people who perhaps are doing far worse than we know.

@omarr.finkiv2524 Жыл бұрын

Thank you. For being brave and making this, but mostly for giving a well-educated and thought-out explanation of a difficult issue. This is the kind of discourse that makes us all better.

@trestonegby8025 28 күн бұрын

As an up and coming Black professional, I absolutely love your colleague for putting that on his nametag 😂

@blasphemy1013 Жыл бұрын

This is the first video I’ve ever heard recognize that FORCED pronoun sharing might force someone to out themselves. NO LGBTQ person I know has ever mentioned that to me like it’s actually a real issue. Thank you so much!

@lifefindsaway7875 Жыл бұрын

It definitely feels like a catch-22.

@MarisaClardy Жыл бұрын

I'll say this as a trans person: I never force anyone to share pronouns. I will not ask unless it's obvious to me that they want me to ask,. and instead I will rely on others to share or correct if I assume the pronouns wrong. If someone is trans and comes out as trans to me, I will ask them which pronouns they would prefer I use, but that`;s the only time. I do this because I was forced to do exactly that situation at one point by someone who was attempting to be inclusive, and I did *not* like it. So for me, the most important thing is to let others provide to me how they would prefer I refer to them, assuming I didn't figure it out right away.

@mairoberts1247 Жыл бұрын

Contrapoints did and she got canceled for it

@rebeccahicks2392 Жыл бұрын

I have come across a few LGBTQ persons sharing their discomfort with forced pronouns for this reason, but it's certainly not something very many people are saying.

@JoTheAnomaly Жыл бұрын

@@mairoberts1247Came here to say this.

@statusqrow8264 Жыл бұрын

We, as a society, need more discussion like this. It’s refreshing to see someone handle a socially divisive topic with such wit, compassion, sincerity, and consideration to practicality. Thou art a pro at them nouns, yo.

@dawahaddict Жыл бұрын

The internet is a perilous place to offer a thoughtful and nuanced analysis of hot button issues. This was really well done masha’Allah, particularly the balance between the linguistic and the social components. Thanks for all you put into this one. Subbed. 🎉

@Hardcrafter2807 Жыл бұрын

I've always found the notion of "preferred" pronouns, or presently the term "my" pronouns a little bizarre at best. After all, _I_ don't have pronouns, languages have pronouns and they're basically designed to be grammatical tools, as you clearly explained here, they are used to replace nouns in sentences. Also, the term "preferred" implies that someone's identity is just a preference and not something that is intrinsic to them as a person. Which is likely why the term "preferred" is no longer used when referring to pronoun usage.

@SmallSpoonBrigade Жыл бұрын

That's because it's a massive imposition for a tiny group of people who individually may or may not even care. Asking somebody for their pronouns is rude and really needs to stop. It's very much the same basic idea as asking if somebody is gay or lesbian. It's not something that we would generally do except in some pretty specific circumstances and doing so forces people to make an up or down vote as to whether they're out or not. By all means, if somebody gives you a preferred pronoun or a different name from what you were expecting do your best to respect their request, but people shouldn't be rooting around in case there is some other preference. When people say that you shouldn't assume somebody's gender, that's not really what they mean, what they mean is that you should ask if it's not clear, not that you need to personally ask absolutely everybody, including those that are very clearly one gender or another or if it's not even relevant to what's going on.

@BoojumFed Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that knife cuts both ways depending on the group/ context you're dealing with. Personally, i tend to default towards preferred because A) I'm an old fuck and it was the first one I learned; B) When describing someone's pronouns to others it feels much more respectful to the one being described to say "They *_prefer_* you say X" than "They *_are_* a X". Keeps the focus on the fact that they're a person capable of making decisions as opposed to an object for everyone else to describe either correctly or incorrectly (I know we do that all the time with cis-folk, race, nationality, etc, but it seems to me like a subject where respect is easier to forget for some folks and I'd rather err on the side of giving them an extra couple straws to grasp at); And C) I have no actual power to force a third-party speaker to do anything. If the discussed person's preference isn't enough to make the third party care, then that third party was never gonna care anyway...

@Hardcrafter2807 Жыл бұрын

@DBSTKjS I didn't say anything about names. Names are not pronouns, which shouldn't even need to be stated, but here I am. Names are not grammatical tools like pronouns are.

@TheDawnofVanlife Жыл бұрын

@@SmallSpoonBrigade I think as younger folks are moving away from gender norms, it's completely impossible to know for sure. I know a few people for whom I would have defaulted to he or she quite without hesitation by visual reading if not for them indicating a 'they/them' preference. Now I am in a position (theater/stage management) where we do paperwork that includes names and identifiers (like contact sheets) where we do ask to get ahead of an in person meetup and to properly write about the performers and designers with preferred pronouns on anything written where pronouns might be used. I have noticed a tiny bit of 'whatever's respectful' as well, indicating a complete detachment from a preference.

@duckymomo7935 Жыл бұрын

I refer to everyone as guy or girl non withstanding of their actual gender nor does it matter at all Worst of all a woman can use he pronouns and still be a woman but I would be confused because the pronoun she chose doesn’t describe her actual gender I’ve never seen a guy get angry being called a she nor does it matter, especially since they’re 99% of the time not there to hear it It’s like what

@KJBITSME 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for 1) sharing your expertise 2) being just a kind human & 3) giving something to ponder on. I’m with you, I try to be respectful. Most people are kind and gracious and give grace whenever they see one trying. Be kind. Really cool content. I learned a lot and didn’t understand even more 😂

@middlenerd178 Жыл бұрын

I can definitely relate with point 6. At my old school, there was a girl who asked me my pronouns. Not wanting to out myself as trans and also not wanting this person to only ever use she/her, I said any pronouns are fine really. She proceeded to ask me persistently, as if my answer wasn’t good enough. I’m at a different school right now, my friends mostly all use he/him for me :)

@michaelcherokee8906 Жыл бұрын

Doesnt saying any pronouns are good IMMEDIATELY out you as trans?

@wtnv Жыл бұрын

@@michaelcherokee8906 i mean it probably depends on the listener; the guy in the video literally said he's fine with any pronouns and he isnt trans

@ericherde1 Жыл бұрын

I’d say it potentially outs you as either (1) trans, (2) an anti-trans bigot, (3) a cis ally to trans people, or (4) someone who doesn’t really care, because all four of those groups could have reasons for saying any pronouns are fine. If someone told me that any pronouns are fine, I’d be racking my brain trying to figure out which of those categories they are in.

@thechumbucket8986 Жыл бұрын

@@ericherde1no anti-trans bigot would say this.

@ericherde1 Жыл бұрын

@@thechumbucket8986 I've heard that exact statement from anti-trans bigots before, with a strong tone in their voices.

@essemque Жыл бұрын

I was fully prepared to bristle at the "both sides are wrong, here's how normal people think about it" framing, but I was happily surprised by how broad, well-studied and informative this was. Thanks!

@crinolynneendymion8755 Жыл бұрын

"I was fully prepared..." A succinct example of the problem.

@justseffstuff3308 Жыл бұрын

@@crinolynneendymion8755Tbf, the title is very inflammatory. It also uses the right's terms for both sides, rather than using each side's terms for each other, or using each side's terms for themselves.

@DominoPivot Жыл бұрын

@@justseffstuff3308 Yeah. For those who don't know, in English-speaking queer online spaces the term "gender critic" is generally understood as a euphemism transphobes use to make themselves look legitimate, and "woke" as a derogatory term for "the people we don't like". So many of us will see this video title and assume it's a video made by a right-wing transphobe apologist trying to pass as a centrist. A more neutral title would just say the left and right without any connotative qualifiers. But I'm willing to bet that as a cis het white man, the maker of this video is simply not at all part of the social circles where these words carry such a connotation. Plus, these words are great for engagement; I clicked the video, didn't I? 😅 So maybe it's fine to keep it like that.

@jamesfischer2427 Жыл бұрын

@@justseffstuff3308If the left doesn't refer to the right as "gender critical" what term do they use? (other than fascist)

@jamesfischer2427 Жыл бұрын

@@DominoPivotI think you are trying to define a term that you did not coin. When the right (as I self-identify) uses the term 'woke' we are usually referring to a person's tendency to enforce compliance on others, rather than to refer to any personal belief the individual may have I person may be trans, but not be woke (in my terms) is they do not attempt to force others to comply with their beliefs. In my mind, 'gender critical' does not imply malice where 'transphobic' does. 'woke' may be used with or without implication of malice, but that's just my opinion

@fairyofdaisies Жыл бұрын

was unsure how this video would go due to the loaded subject matter, but i'd say you did a great job! keep up the good work :)

@languagejones6784 Жыл бұрын

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it! I try (and maybe don't always succeed) to model having these discussions in ways that are a little more calm, while taking people's concerns seriously

@derekb4977 Жыл бұрын

@@languagejones6784 the T has got to go LGB without the T now as a real gay man my goal is to get rid of trans activists and help Detrans voices grow.

@mikeylikey2306 2 ай бұрын

I appreciate the difficult work of making this. It’s very helpful to hear these well reasoned thoughts. We don’t get that on tv or in politics

@LenweTaralom77 Жыл бұрын

I like this take on pronouns! In german we have it even worse / more complicated, since there is no german translation for they/them. For one friend, we use the pronoun "es", which most closely translates to "it", but they wanted to use a gender neutral pronoun that people are already used to, so "it" was really the only choice available. In my circles and friend group, we mostly do it exactly as you described in the end. Pronouns are an optional specification for us; Many of us couldn't care less which pronouns are used to refer to us as long as it's understandable and we respect the choice of those to whom it is important. And when referring to them when speaking to my grandparents for example, I normally use "she" instead, because it's more important to bring the point of my stories accross, than to force my 80 year old grandparents to relearn pronouns for a friend of mine they'll never meet. All in all great video and a very thoughtful and informed take on this topic. Too many people appear to shut off their brains and start shouting when pronouns are even mentioned. (sorry for possible grammatical errors, it's my second language and quite late ^^)

@MrKoalaburger Жыл бұрын

I'm only halfway through an A1 course, but isn't ihr a translation of "they"?

@MrKoalaburger Жыл бұрын

Er nvm I guess ihr doesn't work at all when I took 5 seconds to think about it lol

@holocene5451 Жыл бұрын

@@MrKoalaburger "Sie"/"ihnen" are the third person plural pronouns, so those would be closest translation of "they"/"them". But yes, it doesn't work that well, because the third person feminine pronouns are "sie"/"ihr" (so in the nominative and accusative it would sound like you're referring to a woman/girl) and verbs also have plural inflections, so rather than e.g. "she is tall"/"they are tall" you have "sie _ist_ groß"/"sie _sind_ groß". And "es" is neuter, but it's only really used for inanimate objects, animals and children ("das Kind"/"das Mädchen"), so it's not ideal either... Hope you're enjoying learning German!

@rainghostly Жыл бұрын

@@MrKoalaburger Yeah, the problem is that our "they" is the exact same word as "she": "sie", which is also the current polite way to adress someone, our formal "you". "Ihr" was actually used for that purpose until around 1800 or 1900. We also use "ihr" for saying "her", as in "her book/ihr Buch", and it's also the plural form of "you". So yeah, every immediate alternative is gendered or has unfitting connotations already :/ we kind of just dance around the terms for now. My nonbinary friend knows the struggle better than we do and that we love them the way they are, with or without proper german pronouns. 🥰 Oh and also: good luck, don't give up. We know it's a hard language, respect for learning it!

@MrKoalaburger Жыл бұрын

@@rainghostly yeah... I was thinking ihr as in "plural you" (or they, in a way) would be a workaround, but yeah that's my English brain speaking. Doesn't actually work at all lol.

@JosThoSul Жыл бұрын

I feel like I knew all (or at least most) of these points and agree with them, but I've never been able to collate and express them so accurately and succinctly. Kudos for handling such a hot button topic so professionally and respectfully!

@Jon0007723 Жыл бұрын

I've never heard something that made such pure and simple sense as this video. You encapsulate everything I've ever wanted to say about the gender debate but was never able to fully articulate. I especially resonated with "If someone tells me what pronouns they believe they should be addressed as, I'll do it out of politeness, even if I don't fully understand it", and "don't force people to categorise themselves". I also like your idea of prioritising respect for your listener and using pronouns they'll understand rather than intentionally using a pronoun you know won't be understood. That will just cause a breakdown in communication, for what is in my opinion no good reason.

@cras17 Жыл бұрын

He hardly even said anything really

@puerry Жыл бұрын

Same. Personally, I believe there are only two genders that can't be changed but I'm not going out of my way to disrespect others because of my personal beliefs. And no, it does not make one bigoted or hateful simply for having a different *personal* opinion, that is generally only applicable if you hate or are vitriolic to others for some arbitrary reason. I'll try my best to use people's pronouns and however they chose to identify is fine. As long as they are not hurting others, they have the freedom to do so and I feel compelled to give everyone basic respect and dignity.

@Jon0007723 Жыл бұрын

@@adriant240 Well there's one thing you said that I agree with - I don't personally agree with having lots of new invented pronouns to describe everyone's own interpretation of what gender means, a simple "they" is fine for people who don't feel like they fit the binary. But when you start your comment with "I didn't watch the video but I believe X about it", you don't really give yourself a leg to stand on. Plus insulting people randomly is never gonna make anyone wanna listen to your point. I also automatically put anyone who uses the phrase "woke" in the bin because it's literally only used by bigots to define any aspect of being more accepting to people that they don't personally like. Society has moved on to a point where you're not allowed to say n word or f word or the like, so you just call them "woke" instead because the meaning of that word is ephemeral enough to be publically allowed but everyone still knows you're just using it in place of a slur.

@adriant240 Жыл бұрын

@@Jon0007723 I want to be polite, but we are far past that point. Believe me. Society has gone insane and extremely dumb (people like you) and at this point I'm all out of patience. I apologize but that's just how it is. It just needs to be said, no more sugar coating and being nice.

@skyisreallyhigh3333 Жыл бұрын

Why don't you believe there are only 2 genders that cant be changed?@@puerry

@corylus86 3 ай бұрын

Very interesting and well researched. If there was one thing that I disliked, it was the title... It's the most polarising part of the whole video.

@kjgarvin Жыл бұрын

I get asked why I have my pronouns on my work email. The reasons are my name is gender neutral and I work with mostly women. I didn't mind the occasional "good morning ladies" at meetings, but since I work at home mostly people were referring to me as a woman and would tell the clients I'm a woman. When, I would call the clients some thought I was a scammer, because my voice is the opposite of what a woman would sound like. The he/him pronouns helped.

@3dorderify Жыл бұрын

That’s what Mr. is for; mister obviated the need for expressing “he/him” on written or spoken exchanges.

@allmight7085 Жыл бұрын

@@3dorderifyyea

@tchristianphoto Жыл бұрын

@@3dorderify Except that it's rather strange to include an honorific such as Mr./Mrs./Ms. in one's email signature.

@stacykrasnikova7744 Жыл бұрын

That's very thoughtful of you. I had quite a bit of trouble figuring out whether to use Mr or Ms when referring to someone I've never seen in person... now I'm also wondering how to refer to someone who's pronouns are they/them🤔 are they Mr, Ms or some new variant, I saw Mx once, but since English is my second language I'm not sure

@unmarketableplushie Жыл бұрын

@@stacykrasnikova7744Mx is a gender neutral equivalent of Mr or Ms that some non-binary people use. It's usually pronounced like the word "mix" or "mucks". It's a relatively new thing but it's becoming more common.

@mnmmcg3543 4 ай бұрын

Similar to the N word, "bro" is increasingly being used as a second or third person pronoun in informal contexts.

@shaunpcoleman 3 ай бұрын

As long as you don't say "bra".

@Callordin 3 ай бұрын

"I had my boys from both coasts at the party but bro got all up in bra's face and it was on!"

@LRod1959 3 ай бұрын

It's "bruh"

@chrism93lol 3 ай бұрын

Can you give an example that isn't just using it as a noun?

@LRod1959 3 ай бұрын

@@chrism93lol when it's used as an adjective.

@siobahnhurley85 Жыл бұрын

In the first 5 minutes, you explained this subject better than a whole class on the subject that lasted a semester. 😓

@mattelfesso 14 күн бұрын

I once tried to convince everyone around me of the superiority of the base 8 number system and why it would be better to use it than base 10. In order to practice what I preach, I started numbering all my lab work in base 8. But after a few weeks I couldn’t remember which samples were labeled in base 10, and which were based on 8, and so it fouled everything up. I feel that trying to get other people to use pronouns that are different from what they’re used to, is an equally productive exercise.

@melonmw Жыл бұрын

I really like your take on this. I think the "know your audience" thing can go both ways. You don't want to confuse/alienate the person you're speaking to in the moment. But you also don't want to out the person you're talking about if you don't know whether or not your conversation parter is safe. Also, my method of allyship (I'm not trans, but I am queer and use any pronouns) is sharing my pronouns when introducing myself, instead of asking someone what theirs are. That gives the other person the opportunity to decide if they also want to share or not. I'm mostly in the habit now of using neutral they/them for people who haven't told me, even if they appear very masc/femme. Some people, even cis, don't present as the gender they are.

@Laura-kl7vi Жыл бұрын

I like this, to share one's pronouns but don't ask. As he said, we don't ask other kinds of personal information, and that's really sensitive and personal to people oftentimes, for a number of reasons, outing oneself or being socially forced to lie being one. I wish the trans community and allies especially (particularly younger ones who sometimes feel almost aggressive) would not ask. I know cis/het people who are fine with other people identifying with whatever (or no) gender they are who HATE being asked their pronouns. I guess if you are a feminine cishet woman being asked makes you wonder-do I look masculine or something? Or a man--can't you tell I'm a guy? I bet that bugs some (cis-het) men even more than women. Why alienate (even subsconsiously) potential allies?

@michaelcherokee8906 Жыл бұрын

Well I think that using neutral pronouns until a person tells you is stupid! For one, 99.9-something percent of people will line up with the way they look, and for two, asking many of those people what their pronouns are is going to piss them off. I for sure, if you asked me my pronouns, would without a doubt be slightly offended, as the prior commenter got at. Just assume the pronoun unless youre genuinely confused or until someone tells you otherwise, cause we all need to 1) stop being so afraid of offending someone and 2) stop getting offended. If you misgender someone and they freak out, obviously theyre a nutcase that you dont want to associate with anyway.

@melonmw Жыл бұрын

@@michaelcherokee8906 Clearly you just said that being misgendered would offend you. As I said in my comment, I don't ask people what their pronouns are. I only give mine and if they respond with their own, I use those pronouns when referring to them. If they don't share their pronouns, I usually default to the neutral they/them, because at worst, it may annoy a handful of cis people (who should probably think about why they're so bothered by it). I think that's an acceptable consequence of respecting differences in gender presentation. Finally, I have no idea where you got your 99.9 statistic. Even if that number is correct (it's not), that's still 8,100,000 people. Maybe assumption works for you, but I'm often surrounded by queer and non-conforming people so I find the neutral method works for me.

@russelllawrence3584 8 ай бұрын

If a person misgenders you and it matters, you should correct them. I am misgendered on the phone because of the tone of my voice, it's not a big deal.

@janegardener1662 2 ай бұрын

They/them makes no sense, though. There is no such thing as a plural person.

@gabrielrubinstein1460 Жыл бұрын

I feel like this is one of those issues where the problem is exacerbated by media (both social and traditional) amplifying extreme opinions. In reality I've never met anyone who got angry if someone used the wrong pronouns for them, provided they weren't doing it deliberately to cause hurt or make a point. (This isn't to say it didn't upset them to be misgendered, but they didn't take this out on the other person if it was perceived to be an honest mistake.) Similarly, I haven't actually met anyone who would deliberately use the wrong pronouns for someone when they'd been made aware of the correct ones, even if they actually didn't "believe" in trans or gender non conforming people. I'm not saying these two people don't exist, but reading the arguments put forward in mainstream media could lead you to believe that everyone on the planet could be categorised either as a respectful human being who always does their best to get everyone's pronouns right or one of these two types of people I've never met.

@DavidLindes Жыл бұрын

Indeed. There are definitely exaggerations all around.

@rigure Жыл бұрын

Exactly!! I have people misgendering me, even calling me a woman outright, not just "she" but only one single person does it to make a point. Everyone else simply isn't capable of understanding the subject (I'm autistic myself so I'm constantly around people with differently functioning brains) I let them. In fact, I'm the one who told them it's okay. I did ask that they refrain from using any gendered terms other than pronouns, like "woman" since those aren't needed while not using gendered pronouns in German is linguistic heII (it feels too awkward and I respect that, and I can't afford to 'fix' my body so it's difficult to remember I prefer "he") but I get that they just can't remember and I tell the people that do use the correct terms that I greatly appreciate them, but also that there's no need to correct anyone because I know they don't have bad intentions. Even the one who does it to make a point ( and also might be waiting for me to negatively react) is autistic. I know the reason he's so rightist and so severely against trans people is because he whole heartedly believes that biology is all there is and humans aren't anything more than our outer shells

@DavidLindes Жыл бұрын

@@rigure I wonder if you can find a way to prompt "the one who does it to make a point" to go on an "autistic special interest" dive into the intricacies of biological sex (the myriad forms of intersexuality in humans, sex in other species, etc.). Might change the outlook, indirectly??? :)

@rigure Жыл бұрын

@@DavidLindes Hehe I guess I could try to get him interested ^-^ I do think his aversion to a lot of humans is quite deeply rooted, so I'm not sure he won't just fight any interest he might get, but it may be worth a shot!

@boiledelephant Жыл бұрын

Definitely. Offline, politeness tends to win. I don't 'believe' in gender identity or trans and still happily use people's preferred pronouns, because why wouldn't I? They're just trying to live their best life and be comfortable, only an asshole would deliberately undermine that.

@aidanmccracken890 4 ай бұрын

I've started just slurring something like "-aey" "-ee" or "-em" in place of any pronouns

@gen2mediainc.577 3 ай бұрын

like the demoman tf2

@TotalWater-d2o 3 ай бұрын

are you Australian?

@gonkdroid4prez539 3 ай бұрын

yeah, I do that sometimes when i'm not sure. I also do the exact same thing with articles when I speak German (which I can only speak a bit of), so I wind up saying like "də" instead of der, die, das

@neast20 2 ай бұрын

Ey,em,eir are gender neutral neo-pronouns, So technically Ur not misgendering

@stm7810 2 ай бұрын

Same, I'm blind, and wanna be respectful of gender but legit can't tell who someone is.

@therealshug 27 күн бұрын

7:18 "... what linguists call, the hoo-hah..." got a giggle from me

@mattmew28 Жыл бұрын

This is super helpful, and like anything helpful, is balanced and nuanced and very educational. I'm a therapist who nowadays has been helping a lot of transgender/non-binary teens. While I advocate for them, support them and respect their pronouns...I also remind them that they are asking their family members to make a lot of linguistic shifts and changes, and that the struggle is not the same as rejection. I appreciate that you acknowledge that the tension is normal and necessary, and "dignity" and "respect" is key to bridging the gaps.

@liliana.9929 Жыл бұрын

As a trans woman, my general rules of thumb have been: -when referring to a stranger, I generally default to what they seem to present as--whether that's masculine, feminine, or androgynous/non-conforming. If I get acquainted with a non-conforming-seeming person, I like to ask what they want me to call them by because I want them to feel comfortable/safe with me. -when strangers refer to me, I generally don't correct them. I get misgendered often over the phone, but oftentimes I'm never going to speak to that person again, they don't have any reason to know better or come to know better, so it's not worth the trouble for me. If I get acquainted or expect to become acquainted, I'll inform them of my pronouns. If they don't respect them, I deem them unworthy of my company, but that's been very rare.

@trussell5084 Жыл бұрын

Same. I work in a place that I am using the phone a lot. I generally don’t bother trying to fix assumptions of those I’ll not have to see again. It’s my coworkers that refer to me as the wrong gender that frustrates me.

@theunholybanana4745 Жыл бұрын

@@trussell5084 what gender are you?

@brunnomenxa Жыл бұрын

As I said in my main comment, in my main language (Brazilian Portuguese), we have genders for absolutely all nouns. I see this pronoun fight as unnecessary because "a person", in my language for example, is feminine, but it doesn't offend any men because you use a feminine pronoun or noun to describe both a man and a woman. Pronouns as they are, arose because of the natural development of a language, and there have been efforts to create neutral languages, but they usually fail because the reasons are completely irrational and subjective. This arrived in Brazil and is affecting everyone because mostly emotionally sensitive people think they need to change the grammar of the language to speak to people without offending them. My tip is, don't be offended by a word if the intention is not to offend you. If the goal is to offend, there is no reason to use cute pronouns in place of insults. This is too much effort for a waste of time.

@andiiiiiiiiiii Жыл бұрын

@@brunnomenxathere are languages that are already, naturally neutral. for example, in my dad's native language, Swahili, there are no gendered pronouns, and most nouns do not imply what a person's gender/sex is. You can have a whole conversation about someone without ever implying what their gender is. There are 9 noun classes, but it works very differently from the 2 grammatical genders in romance languages.

@brunnomenxa Жыл бұрын

@@andiiiiiiiiiii, Yes indeed. My point is that non-gender neutral languages don't need to change grammar to satisfy specific people, because the language naturally developed that way. In my language there are words that change meaning with gender. For example: "a caixa" (fem.) means "the box", but "o caixa" (masc.) means "the cashier". Trying to change this is basically killing a language and building an artificial one for an empty cause.

@FranklyDontcallmeshirly 4 ай бұрын

So happy to hear someone say (kind of) the same thing I like to say: "I don't care how you talk about me, as long as you do it behind my back."

@aaaaaaaa9189 4 ай бұрын

i don’t like that two faced shit. if someone’s going to disrespect me, i’d rather they not be a coward about it

@KindredBrujah 3 ай бұрын

@@aaaaaaaa9189 Again, though, as Doctor Jones says, you cater what you say to your audience (within reason). If 'Xe' is not going to land and people won't understand what you're talking about, you can either preface it with a little explanation, if you have an opportunity, or you go with a more straightforward substitution like 'they'. Not saying people who deliberately deadname or misgender you behind your back, specifically because you're not there, are in the right.

@RowdyZeePAY 2 ай бұрын

I'm kinda disappointed that this video didn't introduce any new ideas to me. I know that me and those around me can't account for everyone, but as part of the 'woke left,' most people I'm friends with understand almost everything you've said in this video.

@commieRob 4 ай бұрын

I realize this is irrelevant to the important issues being discussed here, but I've become hyper aware of avoiding ambiguous pronouns while speaking, and have gotten more comfortable repeating proper nouns in sentences. Since I've been doing that, I've gotten a lot of compliments about how clearly I communicate from people who don't even catch what I'm doing. Even if it wouldn't be totally ambiguous when written down, people often lose track of syntax while listening. Fewer pronouns makes for better communication. It also helps to get into the habit of sharing information specific to individuals first. 'Frank hit Steve after they argued.' instead of 'Frank and Steve argued and he hit him.' Thanks for a great video!

@k.c1126 4 ай бұрын

This is interesting. One workaround for subject verb agreement error elimination is to revise the sentence structure for improved reference. I hadn't thought about it as a way of clarifying pronoun / gender reference.

@funcat3560 4 ай бұрын

If I'm writing or talking for a long time I'll just repeat proper nouns so I don't make a mistake. It also makes the re-read easier if I choose to do so. It's a very convenient "waste" of 2-3 seconds lol.

@Judymontel 3 ай бұрын

As someone who is trying to overcome the very bad habit of over-using pronouns (i.e., start of conversation me: "so he said..." everyone: "who???"), this is good advice.

@vixxcelacea2778 3 ай бұрын

I never thought about that, but that makes perfect sense. It also cuts down massively on word usage, which keeps someone's attention better. It also brings the important part up first, which is that Frank hit Steve and then explains why the occurrence took place. Basically with the Alice example, you'd just rephrase it to fit as one condensed person "Upon seeing the reflection, Alice is/was please with what is see/what was/is there" That one is harder when talking about singular specificity to a person. I spent a few minutes trying to retool his example and that's about the most satisfying one I constructed. It was very hard to not right "what they/he/she saw."

@p.f.b.1484 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video! The current debate on preferred pronouns and possessive adjectives (his/her/their) is something which seems to be more linguistically relevant in the Anglosphere than in other languages. In Italian, personal pronouns are not the main indicators of gender. The pronoun is often omitted when it is in the nominative case and it is clear from context who we are talking about. E.g.: "Alex ha 28 anni. Insegna francese" (Alex is 28. [He/she] teaches French. It is not specified whether Alex is a man or a woman). The possessive adjective takes the grammatical gender of the object, NOT of the person who owns it. So, "la sua valigia" means "his/her suitcase"; "sua" is feminine because valigia is fem. "Il suo ombrello" means his/her umbrella, "suo" is masculine. On the other hand, all Italian nouns and adjectives have masculine and feminine desinences, so it would be impossible to talk at length about a person without disclosing his/her/their gender.

@adam_sporka Жыл бұрын

In Czech, possessive pronouns are on a "gender matrix": You need to pick the right combination of the gender of the object and the gender of the owner. It is a challenge even for the native speakers. (Plus, there are 4 grammatical genders in Czech.)

@Wandering.Homebody Жыл бұрын

@@adam_sporka same in German. If applied correctly, you will know both the gender of the possessor, as well as of the object in question, from the possessive pronouns/article. I like it, it seems more precise to me. Since most people use the pronoun you d expect for themselves, anyway, it works very well, overall. It's sth i don't love about Italian / Spanish, this increased ambiguity from the skipped pronouns. It sometimes seems a bit sloppy to me. Woke texts with an overabundance of singular use they/them just end up being confusing and way less precise, usually, where relatively often i lose track of who is being referred to, completely needlessly.

@patax144 Жыл бұрын

As a Spanish native speaker the problem comes with the gender suffixes, girls a, boys o, non-binary e, x or even @ used in adjectives. Possessives we have su, we don't care for the gender of object or subject. Pronouns are usually dropped anyway.

@patax144 Жыл бұрын

@@Wandering.Homebody I am learning German as a Spanish speaker and I can see what you mean we support ourselves on the verb for a lot of things, German is more precise in a lot of things by the use of other parts of the sentence.

@Wandering.Homebody Жыл бұрын

@@patax144 the verbs aren't gendered in Spanish in any way though?

@fredjrsantos4663 Жыл бұрын

Filipino (or Tagalog) and almost all dialect in the Philippines are genderless languages. Pronouns do not have a classified gender. For example, the pronoun "siya" (he/she) or possesive pronoun "sa kanya" (his/hers) can be used to refer to anyone regardless of gender. The word "anak" (child) can also be used to refer to a son or daughter.

@kelvincook4246 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for pointing this out, I had a good friend from the Philippines who I thought was mixing up the English pronouns when he would call his daughter "he". It is amazing the me that when you learn other languages you learn that not every language handles the parts of speech the same way. And how the mistakes we make in languages that are not our native tongue come about.

@kinyacat5919 Жыл бұрын

yup

@BickSnarf 3 ай бұрын

13:06 damn, I was hoping to ride my vibes all the way to doctorate

@mjb7015 Жыл бұрын

My favourite noun gender system comes from the Indigenous Australian language Yanyuwa, which has male (human), female (human), masculine, feminine, foods, trees and tree parts, abstract, body parts, and like 8 different noun classes for referring to people and family members. There's a different Australian language that has a noun class for dangerous things. Oh, and I also like the way Navajo has a hierarchy of nouns based on animacy, and that is reflected in the word order and postpositions used.

@colleenprinssen Жыл бұрын

oh so there is a culture that will use "bird" as a pronoun when pertaining to people?

@LC-sc3en Жыл бұрын

@@colleenprinssen according to Wikipedia there are 16 noun classes and when you say a noun you have to preface it with it's class. If English were like this with the preface ta for food nouns we would have Tabread and tachicken and Heoldman and sheoldwoman. They also have separate dialects depending on whether you are male or female and a specific form of speech used when talking to a relative who's father (if the relative is male) or mother (if the relative is female) has died. It fits the conversation despite not being about pronouns because it is a good example how languages can be constructed in vastly different ways and still function.

@marczr3493 Жыл бұрын

Finally someone that takes a neutral and kind approach to this issue. Thank you for sharing your view❤

@languagejones6784 Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@JohnSmith-ns6dp Жыл бұрын

This isn’t neutral at all.

@p.s.shnabel3409 Жыл бұрын

@@JohnSmith-ns6dp Agreed. Languagejones should have done deeper research into the nuances why people don't go in for this whole pronoun kerfuffle; he sounds like he got his talking points from random left-leaning publications. I'm not trying to claim he's completely wrong - there will be people who fit his description. But in reality, it's a lot more complicated than "don't tell me what I can do".

@offroadr Жыл бұрын

@@p.s.shnabel3409, Since almost any social or psychological conversation is generally more nuanced than any discussion you might hear, (nuance is pretty fractal in these situations), do you mean to say we cannot talk about something in which we are not taking sides? Your point isn't clear to me. Yes there are many reasons not to give into to these new pronouns. How many? Count the people that agree with that and divide that number in two. Unless you do not count ALL the nuance. Let's change things. My name is Wayne, this is what I like to be called, you might call me Bob by mistake, or you might just refuse to call me Wayne because you are a jerk. Perhaps I got married and changed my last name, you talk to someone about me and use my previous name in the conversation, because it just makes the conversation easier. Or perhaps you mention my name had changed at the beginning of the conversation and use my new name. This is fine. If you call me by some insulting name or use my previous name to put down my marital choice, during the conversation, that will also work for you. But I might take offence and likely you are just being a jerk. This is the neutral options you can state, since names are not as emotionally high strung, this is pretty easy to get the vast majority to agree to. Suggesting that you might be a jerk by using the insulting or incorrect names with the intent to be disrespectful is kind of obvious. Now apply all that same logic to pronouns or any other way of referring to someone and the same basic morality is the same. First think of someone you are chatting to online. How do you know their sex? You might not unless they tell you. I could tell you I am a girl and you wouldn't know different, so it is me labelling myself. In person, if you called me a she, because somehow my bald head didn't give a way my default and prefered gender, then you are not being a jerk, if you call me a she, because you think I am being weak or a bad driver, that would make you a jerk and sexist. If I was more like Pat and you called me she just because you think I look feminine when you know I am a guy, you are being a jerk. Now if I just felt more like a girl and told you I am a girl, you still wouldn't know my sex, so what is the difference really. So the difference, why should I be able to choose my proper noun, but not my pronoun? Chances are the people with a huge emotional belief in the issue is not caring about the linguistic correctness, they are more swayed by the emotional aspects, like I don't want something else to remember, or they just don't care how I see myself. Chances are I will talk about a friend that was born a man and identifies as a woman as she. But if I am talking to someone who knows the same person and is very uncomfortable using that pronoun, I will use he. If the two are together I will be respectful to the person I am talking about, since I am talking to the both of them, the fact that I am talking about them adds presidence to who I will give more consideration to. But most people I talk to in person, really don't want to offend either, so they tend not to push the issue. I am talking in person not random ranters on the internet. Personally, I hate mistaking an old fashioned guy for a girl in conversation, especially if they hear. I wish pronouns were not sexed. But just like the US changing from imperial to metric would be hard, everyone switching to genderless pronouns would be hard enough that it is fair to not even try. I also hate all these new pronouns and worry about offending someone by forgetting. Is it more nuanced? Of course, I could add more paragraphs, pages, etc, and it would still be more nuanced. but do you get the point, is this good enough?

@p.s.shnabel3409 Жыл бұрын

@@offroadr Yes, you completely missed the point ... but thank you for your reply nevertheless. It's certainly interesting to hear someone else's thought processes on this topic. No sarcasm/irony intended - people are fascinating to me. Let me try it again, and I don't know how to put it more clearly, but Languagejones' representation of the reasons why people are not in favor of/are not going along with the pronoun game are a lot more various than just "muh freedom" (nor do I think that "being a jerk" is necessarily the only right answer, either). And he does not give any of these other reasons any acknowledgment whatsoever, making his video analyzing the situation deeply flawed. Why you personally believe and act as you do has only a tangential impact on this discussion (again, no dig at you, that's just not what I was addressing originally). Neither was I accusing YOU of lacking nuance; how could I when I didn't even know you existed? Finally, I am baffled how you come to the conclusion that I might not be in favor of discussions in cases where not all facts are known? I am simply objecting to one side being misrepresented because of (an obvious) lack of research. How can we have a meaningful and constructive conversation if we don't even understand each other's reasoning and motivations? If you want to know why people might object to playing along with the pronoun game, I'd advise you to start looking for critical voices. You'd be amazed at the variety of reasons. Since I am not in favor of starting anyone's journey off on a bias, I am intentionally vague and not dropping any names where best to start. Good luck either way and I hope you find balance.

@msteerie Жыл бұрын

As a trans person, this really wasn't spicy as all. Genuinely a very good video & pretty enlightening. Thanks for making it!

@corinneskitchen Жыл бұрын

Well your community is known for being unreasonable and mad about reality.

@msteerie Жыл бұрын

@@corinneskitchen ?? Sure dude. If you want to talk about "unreasonable" then look at this videos comment section. 90% of the comments from trans or trans supportive people are all positive or constructive & 90% of the comments from transphobes are all dismissing the video before they got 2 seconds in or saying dumb catchphrases like YWNBAW. If you want to talk "mad about reality" you should really pick up a book. Most modern studies affirm trans people & if you dismiss them because they're modern then please stop taking all your medicine. You see the world as black & white when theres 1000 colors & shades of gray so of course you're going to be wrong.

@ItsAsparageese Жыл бұрын

@@corinneskitchen What a fcked up, unreasonable, mad-about-reality (or more accurately your dishonest narrative about reality) reply, for absolutely zero reason

@Blueberry_Koi Жыл бұрын

@@corinneskitchen have you actually talked to a trans person irl or are you just like... guided by the internet discourse

@corinneskitchen Жыл бұрын

@@Blueberry_Koi I am a detransitioner and had many trans friends. Have you ever actually talked to a detransitioner or even listened to any?

@alchemydp 2 ай бұрын

Awesome explanation! As a retired linguistic anthropologist I go crazy sometimes with people’s confusion. And love your sense of humor. I hope you’re going viral! 🎉

@demcurvs Жыл бұрын

I have never seen a KZbin title use the phrase "woke left" and not be incorrect about everything. Excellent video

@sketch4363 Жыл бұрын

I was so worried lol

@BoojumFed Жыл бұрын

TRUTH!

@wolfblaide Жыл бұрын

And he's even using the term apolitically! (as apposed to as slang/derogatory/meaningless usage)

@demcurvs Жыл бұрын

@wolfblaide Progressive left would be more accurate, my guess is that it was to draw attention tbf. Far right people are more likely to click and listen if they think it's criticizing "woke people". Lol

@wolfblaide Жыл бұрын

@@demcurvs Well yes, but I don't think "progressive" captures the full intent for the video. "Woke" seems to be better, as it come across initially as wrong or potentially offensive, then you realise it isn't. That fits very well with the video.

@ginettepagan3387 Жыл бұрын

THANK YOU!!! Finally, someone explains it in a non-partisan way and more of a “people just don’t know what they’re talking about” way. Also, thank you, I learned a lot more today. 🙏🏻

@synthchick12 Жыл бұрын

This was a really interesting linguistic video, thank you! As an ally I absolutely agree that the asking for people's pronouns can be allyship taken too far -- especially when it becomes a demand. I've heard several trans people make the same argument as you about how it can accidentally out people when we are too aggressive with it. Instead of asking other people's pronouns, I've found it's better to simply share my own (she/her) with no expectation of that in return. It's simply an indicator to the other person of my views and that I'm a safe person to come out to, if they choose to do so. Another interesting point you made is about how gender is just one part of our identity, and for many people it's not an important part. As a cis woman who looks feminine the only times I've been misgendered are either clearly slips of the tongue or online where someone is making an incorrect assumption. It's honestly funny to me in those situations, it's never going to really bother me. But I can understand that if you are constantly being misgendered, maybe because you are trans, or because you don't look like what people expect a man/woman to look like, or just because other people think it's a funny way to insult you.....that's going to be much more painful. So even though for me personally misgendering isn't a big deal, I don't let that trick me into thinking that everyone else has the same experience.

@oinkerbob2 Жыл бұрын

>stop asking people their pronouns and share your own instead This right here is what I want. When someone outlines how they wish to be addressed in this manner, it marks them in my mind as a safe person and encourages me to share rather than making me approach the conversation as an interrogation. That might not seem too huge for those who do align with the gender they were assigned, but this is huge for a lady in an unfriendly part of the US. As a more broad comment, I've never encountered this channel before now, and I clicked on this video while regrettably assuming this bearded man in a plain tshirt was going to disrespect my existence like many other bearded men in plain tshirts on the internet. What I heard instead was Dr. Jones separate the "issue" of gender diversity from the confusion surrounding pronoun usage. Many people in the US fail to do that for themselves, either because mainstream media conflates the two or they're simply unwilling to admit their true biases. That's why I'm glad Dr. Jones made this video, and I'll be sharing it with my parents soon.

@janegardener1662 3 ай бұрын

@@oinkerbob2 Nobody addresses anybody with third person pronouns. Third person pronouns are used when the person being referred to isn't there. That's why they're called "third person pronouns".

@iamnohere 3 ай бұрын

@@janegardener1662 I: Except all the conversations that involve more than two participants, in which it is completely natural and common to refer to one of the speakers in third-person in their presence Given all your other comments under this vid, you're just being obtuse on purpose

@janegardener1662 3 ай бұрын

@@iamnohere Adults don't speak about other adults when they are present, except under certain conditions, like introductions: "Bill, this is Jane. She is my colleague at work". Adults do speak for children or incapacitated adults when they are present: "My son would like the waffles this morning. Could you also bring him an orange juice? Thank you." "My mother needs to go to the doctor. Can you take her today?" Otherwise adults let other adults speak for themselves. We don't talk about other people as if they're not there, because that is rude.

@iamnohere 3 ай бұрын

@@janegardener1662 I: I can think of plenty scenarios where speaking about someone is still perfectly natural: "Kay told me all about you; they praised you highly." / "Mary said I could join, so I've accepted her invitation." / et cetera, et cetera. Also - even if children and incapacitated adults _were_ the only case, would they _not_ still need the pronouns?

@michaeldjohnson6333 3 ай бұрын

Fascinating and insightful. Love that you (3rd p. he/him) always present with a a wry sense of humor as well. Me: (gay male, he/him) PH. D. in Slavic Langs & Lits--Russ/Pol, but also studied German, French, Latin, Italian, Mandarin...

@BillEstep 8 ай бұрын

First, love the sweater! Second, great video. Thank you for the information and the clear and sensitive way you discussed this subject. Number 6 is an interesting one. As an 'out' member of the lgbtq+ community, coming out becomes a way of life. It seems like a singular event, but in reality, we are always coming out because (in my observation) folks assume a hetero-normative stance in conversations, 'What does your wife do for a living?' It can be challenging. Every time it happens, it feels like a splash of cold water in the face, and every time, I have to make a quick decision on how to answer. What are the odds this person will shoot me if I say 'My husband...' etc. It is a complicated subject, and I really appreciate your willingness to chime in with some good science. :-)

@orthohawk1026 4 ай бұрын

Heh. thy "heteronormative" observation reminds me of a time when I (male) had a male roommate and one day I answered the phone and the caller said, "Hi! Could I speak to Mrs. (Roommate's last name)?" I'm possessed of quite a deep voice (not to mention a twisted sense of humor), so I said, "Speaking." which was greeted with, "Oh.um..wel......um......" (Click....buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz). Makes me laugh to this day.

@phpn99 4 ай бұрын

just stop feeling victimised

@aozf05 Жыл бұрын

I was just thinking about this a couple weeks ago. I'll always respect people's preferred pronouns but if anybody asks me what my pronouns are I'd say I literally do not care as long as you are consistent with it and people know you're referring to me. Because pronouns are a linguistic tool, not my identity, not my name.

@jkscout Жыл бұрын

By "respecting people's preferred pronouns" what you're actually doing is participating in their sexual fetish. A lesbian told me that.

@ijustdocomments6777 Жыл бұрын

@@jkscout This is why lesbians are my favorite alphabet people, they pretty consistently have no time for bullshit.

@jkscout Жыл бұрын

@@ijustdocomments6777 not all lesbians are like that. For instance, my best friend of almost 40 years won't talk to me anymore since I became a left-wing gender critical. Many people don't know this, but even the founder of gay pride following the stonewall riots, Fred Sargeant, is gender critical. He's been banned from twitter and assaulted by trans rights activists on numerous occasions. It's sad what the T is doing to society, with women and LGB people as its primary victims.

@dolphinbanana3053 Жыл бұрын

@@jkscout name checks out

@seanmadson8524 Жыл бұрын

@@dolphinbanana3053 Don't feed it, this one's clearly hungry

@bluecolibri9413 Жыл бұрын

There is an interesting situation here in Norway rn because of the use of "they". The norwegian male pronoun is "han", and the Norwegian female pronoun is "hun", and a few years ago, a third gender neutral pronoun was added: "hen". However, because of all of the screaming about "they" on the internet. A lot of teens are directly translating the word they and using the norwegian word "de". Which is very confusing because in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal. Otherwise it is plural third person. Therefore, when people use the word "de" about someone in Norwegian it makes the person sound like they have a personality disorder or something.

@thomgizziz Жыл бұрын

Which is very confusing because in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal. Otherwise it is plural third person. It is the similar in english. Third person plural. Second person they is only used for an unknown subject. It is just as much madness in English.

@divxxx Жыл бұрын

I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't have English engraved in my brain. So, just like I costantly learn new things about the language and start using them, it could potentially be easier for me to use the singular they to refer to a non-binary person. However that's not the case. This is because I don't have any non-binary person to talk to or about, therefore this special use of the word is so rare that it's impractical. It's like having a very fancy avocado slicer, bought specifically to slice avocado and only avocado. But you don't ever buy avocados, and when you do it occasionally, you forget you had the avocado slicer and use a normal knife instead.

@knrdvmmlbkkn Жыл бұрын

@@thomgizziz "a third gender neutral pronoun was added: "hen"." I don't use that ridiculous term, and neither should anyone else. "in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal." No, Norwegian (capitalised). That would be "De" (capitalised). Though it doesn't affect the pronunciation. But the objective form is "Dem" (as opposed to "dem" for third person plural). .

@littlestbroccoli Жыл бұрын

Facepalm. Your language has what we wish English had, and the teens still went with third person plural 😮‍💨🙄

@bluecolibri9413 Жыл бұрын

Yup. 😑@@littlestbroccoli

@nateb7394 2 ай бұрын

Appreciate this video. I think you hit the nail on the head: any meaningful interaction regarding anything tangentially related to this topic has to start with kindness.

@janegardener1662 2 ай бұрын

All discussion about language has to start with the belief that language is about effective communication, not assuaging psychic grief.

@leilatimeful Жыл бұрын

I just yesterday participated in KZbin comments discussion about pronouns (I was bored and sometimes it’s fun). I was so excited while watching this video because the points are spot on. I especially liked how you pointed out how difficult it is to basically remap the referential point of some pronouns. That not something that people often consciously do in their native language, and it’s kinda hard. And now couple of side-comment non sequiturs: Your friend with the “N--a” pronoun is seriously GOD-TEIR. I wish I were at that conference to hear the discussions that came out of that.👏 That “zaddy” came out of nowhere and cracked me up! 😂

@simonbartlett5094 Жыл бұрын

Great video. I especially appreciate the discussion of the individualist--collectivist spectrum. Of course it's important to respect someone's asserted identity, but it's equally important to recognise that identity is negotiated within a community. Finding a path through this conflicted terrain is not easy, and your discussion provides a really helpful framework for thinking through these questions with compassion and respect

@underseatrove Жыл бұрын

As someone at least way more interested in linguistics than social subjects, this makes so much sense why our arguments go right past each other as wrong & irrelevant.

@sinenomine2681 Жыл бұрын

I should caution that it is very rare to see people on the right arguing in good faith. Linguistics is inherently a social subject, or at the very least a science whose fabric is composed of human communication and interaction. I would argue that every science and philosophy is, in some regard, social. Even something so remote as, say, chemistry. It is rendered thus by the role of pedagogy in sharing information, in which every teacher must first be taught. Whether or not you can follow this causal chain back to our first analogous, conscious ancestor - wherein said being is an isolated occurrence, which is an assumption that takes great liberty - this is too great a digression to hold relevance. Then we start asking questions like "can the interplay between a subject's mind and the external environment with which it interacts be considered learning?" and then "if so, does the environment teach or does the subject teach itself?" if so "when teaching is an activity, how can something non-conscious and nebulous like one's external environment be said to teach?" and "is it not circular that a subject can teach itself? Does this not suggest the subject possesses some prior knowledge that would, if possessed, render the process of teaching itself unnecessary?" among other questions like "can there be a society of one?" and "is there such a thing as an individual mind?" at which point we have very much ventured outside the scope of linguistics and I need to stop rambling.

@betterbelle29 Жыл бұрын

Eh, not really. On the right it's mostly just a complete disregard for people's actual lives. We know that inclusion plays a huge part in reducing things like suicide in trans and other gender non-conforming people. By taking the aggressive "anti-pronoun" space, you just lose any sort of soundness in your argument because the entire foundation is that you do not care if people are excluded from society or even take their own lives. There's just no discourse at all about correct usage, inclusion or how to integrate new language because the right just doesn't care. On the left it's pretty much just disagreements on how to approach inclusion. Some people take rather aggressive "people who push back will see no sympathy" approaches and some others that take a far more passive approach exactly like in the video. Taking an aggressive approach to inclusion I think is perfectly sound stance to take, especially when the alternative is social isolation or even violence towards those who are different. The argument is just on whether that's an effective approach to changing minds. It often isn't, but there are definitely people out there who are complete lost causes, in which case an aggressive "time to troll them with pronouns" approach is pretty much the best you can do. My uncle, for example, still refuses to refer to my cousin (bearded trans man who's jacked as hell and looks nothing like a woman) as a man using he/him pronouns no matter how much people have corrected him (and no matter how absolutely insane he looks referring to him that way) simply because they're trans. It's been something like 7 years now. That person deserves none of my attention and I take pride in pissing him off.

@burlapknapsack 6 ай бұрын

@@betterbelle29 I totally agree! 💜

@burlapknapsack 6 ай бұрын

@@sinenomine2681I agree with your first sentence. The rest is um heavy philosophical debates.

@puckerings 4 ай бұрын

Conservatism is inherently prescriptive. Linguistic arguments will not phase them, because they believe how THEY think the language SHOULD work is how it works. They are inherently anti-change, and language changes all the time.

@martinperon4576 17 күн бұрын

16:00 Lol, I was just reading about Pizza gate, I wasn't expecting it here! Great vid!

@DontMockMySmock Жыл бұрын

The "alice looked at alice in the mirror. . ." example made me crack up because i have a friend who sometimes talks exactly like that about a mutual trans friend (who we both knew prior to her transition). he's getting better about it over time though.

@arnaldo8681 Жыл бұрын

Your friend is lucky you speak english. In portuguese the equivalent of 'the' has 2 genders, and it frequently comes before the name

@tigerofdoom Жыл бұрын

One of my daughter's friends is trans, but the friend's parent did not know, and I definitely did the pronoun dodge at first when I didn't want to be disrespectful but didn't want to out the kid, either. These days, I follow the audience type advice that not outing the kid is more important, so I use the dead name and wrong gendered pronouns in those cases.

@h4724-q6j Жыл бұрын

@@tigerofdoom Althought it's not ideal, not outing the kid is definitely more important and they would appreciate you doing so if they knew. They'll do it to themselves all the time, for example.

@LightByGrace Жыл бұрын

It reminded me of when churches were trying to move to a more inclusive way of referring to God so there would be sentences like 'May God add God's blessing to my prayer so that God's love is carried through God's creation"... :p

@greyborg3846 Жыл бұрын

I had to do this for a long time when a long-time family friend transitioned. I don't know why reprogramming my brain with their new pronouns was so much harder than their new name. But it probably took me a year or two and felt really awkward at first.

@yesterdaydream Жыл бұрын

Nuance, Intention, Consent, and Empathy are how I try to approach everything. And yes I made it a cute little acronym for y'all. If a word interferes with a person's life and they express that to me, it's out of my lexicon for that person. The learning curve is a worthy sacrifice for me! _There's a period of grace for well-intentioned people during adjustment periods._ If my friend Katherine wants to be called Katie now, it will take a minute, but I'll do my dangedest to learn.

@SkullsNPockyLuv Жыл бұрын

This is how I try to do it. I'm honestly shocked and pleasantly surprised that someone mentioned intention at all. It seems like lately people are more interested in arguing than considering the possibility that someone who disagrees with you simply sees things differently from you and doesn't mean any harm. You just keep being you.

@name02 Жыл бұрын

What if someone asks you to refrain from using “cis?” Luckily, the prefix can be easily removed without altering the meaning of the word, at least in regard to cismen or ciswomen, (which has now been expanded to cismale & cisfemale). However, when it comes to respect, feelings, or empathy, it’s usually one-sided. Those who demand respect very rarely extends it to others.

@actualgoblin Жыл бұрын

@@name02 A lot of trans people would rather not be called "trans" but we still do it anyway. I don't see how it's one-sided. Maybe this is a big city/blue state issue I'll never be able to wrap my head around??

@yesterdaydream Жыл бұрын

@@name02 If someone asked me in good faith not to describe them that way, I would absolutely abide! However, most people don't request that because 1) like you mentioned, "cis" is the implied default and is usually only used when specifying that someone is NOT cis; 2) "cis" and "trans" are considered neutral descriptors, like tall, short, fat, thin, blonde, bald, human, or two-legged. Maybe you don't like being called fat, so you might use other terms like chunky/obese/marshmallow bouncy house. We work around the words out of respect to individuals (in the event they even need describing). But none of these adjectives are inherently negative beyond what stigma is around at the time. It's not like calling someone spiteful or violent or even loyal or saintly. Just neutral adjectivity. So, even if you're hairless and don't want to be described as bald, I'll respect that, even though I probably wasn't focused on your hair count in the first place. 💇‍♀💇‍♂💇👱‍♂ Also, I'm sorry you've encountered so many people to whom you've shown respect but didn't feel it back. That's absolutely irritating! My hope for you is that when you encounter this, you continue to be the bigger (read: marshmallow bouncy house) person and keep being respectful anyway. I truly respect your respect thus far and appreciate you reading my blahblahs.🤎

@fwestah Жыл бұрын

How is cis disrespectful?

@meff841 Жыл бұрын

Omg yes, people really do oversell how “easy” learning to use gender pronouns naturally can be. Like I don’t want to call you something that makes you uncomfortable either but it took me years to not use he and she interchangeably even tho I was fluent in every other dimension of English because my mother tongue is Cantonese and we don’t have gendered pronouns period. We use the same word 佢 for everything, be you a man or a woman or a table. A lot of my friends and family till this day haven’t gotten the he and she thing down either. The insistence that pronouns can be learnt easily just seems incredibly English-centric.

@zennalvarez 2 ай бұрын

I think you make some good points. Asking for a person's pronouns can be a bit stressful and has been hard for me to do sometimes. I say this as a trans person myself, but I struggle with social interaction anyway so asking questions like this can be hard. I wear a pronoun pin next to my name tag at work, but people aren't always looking at your clothing, especially since eye contact is usually seen as respectful so a person can come off as rude if they are looking away. At my college I joined my pride club but I was still trying to figure myself out as I was having a lot of issues with self identity. So I told my club the pronouns I was used to having for myself, even though they made me uncomfortable. Eventually I was comfortable enough to be socially open about my identity, but some people will still use the wrong terms to refer to me. It isn't malicious, so I'm not offended by it, but it sometimes hurts. It's strange that for some people, like myself, something that seems small like this can have such a big impact on your mood. Like I could be having a great day, but if someone calls me the wrong noun or is using different pronouns when referring to me, it can make me feel so sad and physically hurt. Learning neopronouns can be difficult sometimes if it strays from what you are used to. To me using Xe or Xir doesn't seem that hard because they sound fairly similar to 'common' ones. It would just be making sure the written form in texts or articles are correctly written and spelled. Others can seem weird to get used to like Fae/faer and ne/nym. But it makes the person feel better and it might just be that they like the sound of those rather than others. When speaking about the person to others, you could mention the proper pronoun just so they know who you are talking about. The person you are speaking to might not use it because it is new to them or difficult for them to say, but then they know who you are referring to. One problem I see when using 'different' pronouns is when the person isn't out, either to the people you are talking to or just in general. In that case I try to use neutral terms like they/them because I would rather not misgender the person, but I will not out them either for their safety or comfort. And safety is an issue too. Whether it is for yourself or another person. It sucks that in some places or with people in your life that you have to be closeted due to the possibility of being hurt. There is one thing I was going to mention about titles too. One of my coworkers almost always uses titles when talking to others like "Mr. --, can you...", "Good morning Ms. --..." When he heard that I was trans he wanted to make sure I was comfortable so he asked me what I preferred. I don't really like gendered terms for myself, but I will sometimes go with masculine ones as that is easier for some people to use and more 'obvious' when looking at me. But I still don't like Ma'am or Sir, so we both looked over some neutral titles to see if any was good to use. We settled on 'Mx.', pronounced like mix, since it was a middle ground between Mr and Ms. I think it is a process for anyone involved. Languages in general change over time with slang or changes of meanings, and frequency of common names changes too. An English speaker is likely to learn new words or slang in their life that they didn't know about previously. It might not even be in their language as communication and memes goes beyond country borders. It takes some time and effort, but it can be worth it, like learning a second language. Such as how watching this video I found out about the 14 genders/classes you mentioned in Zulu, and then the words youse and yinz.

@Nora-tl5lg Жыл бұрын

I’m a trans woman, and something that causes a lot of confusion for new people I meet is when people I have known since before I came out sometimes refer to me as ”he”. In turn, that makes those new people stop and think for a second and then eventually decide to go with he, which perpetuates the cycle. The amount of distress that misgendering causes is not as bad as it used to be, but it’s still harmful as not everyone I meet needs to know I am trans. Some people knowing it can be very dangerous for me. All because someone in my family either doesn’t care enough to use she or someone wants to demonstrate that I am not ”fooling them”. It’s beyond childish to claim that changing what pronouns you use for someone is difficult (Which certain family members and a lot of grown ups do)

@realmarsastro Жыл бұрын

I'm really sorry that you have to deal with those people, they are definitely acting in bad faith. People who act in good faith can still genuinely have a hard time changing what pronouns they use though, because most people have never really needed to actively think about pronouns, they just use them automatically. Switching from passively doing something out of habit to actively doing the opposite of that can genuinely be challenging for a lot of people. It's not a childish claim at all, it's just true. It's a childish excuse for not making an effort, though. I'm neurodivergent, and I'm of a type who can really struggle with this kind of thing, but I put in a ton of effort to handle that struggle for the sake of my friends who need me to do that. I can't count the amount of times my brain has come to a screeching halt just in time to stop myself from misgendering my trans friend. So it's absolutely true that changing how I use pronouns is difficult for me, but I'd never use that as an excuse to not try.

@josephquesnel1737 Жыл бұрын

Please don’t tell people what they find difficult. And do not insult people by referring to them as childish because they are different then you 😊

@itsapotatofow5621 Жыл бұрын

@@josephquesnel1737If a person is PURPOSELY do it, yes it is childish and transphobic. If it is done by accident it's not. I have trans people in my life and when I accidentally misgender them because my brain fuck up my grammar I immediately correct myself. But it's a completely different situation if a person doesn't make the effort to use the correct ones and then pathetically says "it's too difficult". Like, come on

@josephquesnel1737 Жыл бұрын

@@itsapotatofow5621 you sound like someone who is looking to be offended.

@Janaely Жыл бұрын

@@josephquesnel1737 Assumptions spoken about others are funny. They frequently turn out to be true about the people who say them 🖖🏻🙂

@jan_Sanku 4 ай бұрын

for the reasons you listed very neatly, i strongly believe there would be some merit in renaming grammatical gender to something like "classes" or indeed even "genres". as you said, it's NOT the same as social gender, and we can all see how much confusion this misleading homonym can cause.

@StickmanCorp 2 ай бұрын

In french, "gender" and "genre" are homonyms too, so I'm biased toward "classes".

@mickwilson99 2 ай бұрын

Kiswahili presents precisely like this, each with its own patterns for pluralization and declension and conjugation Some examples: the m/wa class mostly for animate objects mtu -person watu-people. Mtu anaenda - a person goes Wati wanaenda- people go. Other classes include ki/vi kiti-chair viti-chairs; ch/by choo-toilet vyoo-toilets. All very systematic (with very few exceptions), highly phonetic, easy to learn yet rich, extensible and entirely free of unneeded masculine/feminine dichotomies.

@El3ctr0Lun4 2 ай бұрын

It’s not that difficult though. Isn’t this stuff that you learn very early on in primary school? It’s weird that gendered words are such a struggle for so many people.

@mrpenguin815 Ай бұрын

It is an unsatisfying answer because it has a veneer of meaning but is actually built on something entirely arbitrary, and because we try to find patterns and meanings in things we are subconsciously determined to find out why. Saying "the word Stuhl is in the der class" makes it easier to accept and move on. I guess for languages with no articles we'd refer to class A words, which would reintroduce the issue if this language happened to have cocaine in class B.

@inai7282 Жыл бұрын

As a linguist myself, I love how you explained everything. I just love how people forget that other languages and cultures exist.

@spyofborg 11 ай бұрын

No, some fanatics do know, but they find their culture is the most important one. I have been having such conversations and it was quite annoying. I speak English, Dutch, Chinese and they are all quite different and it is fun to have different views and cultures, but the fanatics just don't care, their view is the only correct one. I do say FANATICS, so they are the minority for now.

@juicedsky688 2 ай бұрын

I grew up when teachers claimed that he was supposedly the gender neutral tone. Which I knew wasn’t true because if you knew the person was female, you were supposed to say she. It annoyed me that females were required to accept he but males could throw a tantrum if you used she. I have a little annoyance with Bruh, dude, and guy because they started as male centric words. The closest word I can think of to a female centric word used in that manner is bitch. Sadly, I don’t want to count all the baby names that have been attached to females. They and them are my most common default. I won’t be putting any female she in my zoom channel . I still have trouble. With people insisting on knowing if I’m a miss or Mrs. before they’ll decide whether or not to talk to me. These days if someone actually pauses the conversation to ask that, I’ll tell them Mr. Electronic forms you fill out will still correct me if I marked myself female and choose Mr. They also won’t let me choose neither none of the above. Extra, ma’am was used in all the movies as a reference to any female, whether they be young or old.

@hannahjacobs2293 Жыл бұрын

In the Czech language, my native tongue, there are 3 genders: female, male, and middle (what you call neutral), which can be formal or informal and follow seven patterns for singular and seven patterns for plural context. The fun starts when it comes to further subdivisions of these genders, which govern formation of word endings in conjunction with the pronouns. For each gender there is a live and non-live category further subdivided into multiple patterns . The live female pattern is either “woman” or “rose”. The non-live female pattern is “song” or “bone”. For male gender there are six patterns further subdivided as soft or hard. Soft live pattern is “man” or “judge” and soft non-live pattern is “machine”. Hard live pattern is “lord” and “leader”, while hard non-live pattern is “castle”. Finally, for the middle gender there is no distiction of live or non-live category, but there are three subcategories: hard, soft, and mixed middle gender. Hard middle gender follows the pattern of “city”, soft middle gender follows the pattern of “sea” and mixed middle gender follows the pattern of “chicken”. Each Czech noun follows one of these patterns and there are 14 possible word endings for each pattern, depending on context, seven for singulars and seven for plurals. This is taught at school, but most Czech people can’t explicitly name these rules but all follow them intuitively. So for example, people may not remember that a chair is non-live female pattern rose, but they will use the right pronoun in the right pattern based on context together with the correct word endings intuitively. I am not a linguist and English is not my native language so I am probably describing all this incorrectly, but I hope I captured a sliver of the complexity when it comes to pronouns and linguistic gender in the Czech language. And of course, every Czech noun has a gender sometimes completely incongruous with sex.

@KingdomOfDimensions Жыл бұрын

Good lord that sounds complicated for a non-native speaker to learn. Do you know if Slovak or other slavic languages like Polish are similar or is this just a Czech thing?

@constantineprostak658 Жыл бұрын

@@KingdomOfDimensionsWell, each Slavic language shares the feature like three genders. But in Polish there are only two gender categories in the plural, and in Ukrainian the plural has lost its genders historically. In Ukrainian there are three groups of nouns depending on its stem's last consonant: soft, hard and mixed; in Polish there're only soft and hard. Also these two languages (not sure about Czech) share the division of masculine and neuter nouns regarding the nature of a word: whether it's abstract, an object, a name, a place or a feeling and so on. It affects the ending in the genitive case (either -a or -u). And yeah, cases. Each Slavic language has seven of them except for Macedonian and Bulgarian. Russian and Slovak lack the vocative case. And this is only nouns, but there are also adjectives, pronouns, verbs, numerals... and everything is declined or conjugated

@Xayidee Жыл бұрын

⁠@@constantineprostak658we share some of that in Romanian, although not as complex. Which is the reason why this phenomena of preferred pronouns has not translated from English (where let’s be honest - the switch is simple enough to make with little impact to the meaning that is conveyed in most cases). Additionally to gendered nouns, pronouns (a lot more of them than in english, both formal and informal and then informal regional or archaic - which are still in use), cases, adjectives, we also have articles (definite and indefinite that are also gendered based on the noun they accompany. It makes it difficult to still sound like you have a good grasp of the language and use a gender neutral pronoun to be respectful of someone’s preferences.

@ancientromewithamy Жыл бұрын

Likewise with Latin, but I've read that many languages "simplified" these things over time. There are three genders, and then these are further subdivided into different patterns for the declension of the noun. People remember the patterns through repetition, even if they can't describe the underlying grammar.

@amethystrocks6433 Жыл бұрын

Your explanations are clear & show how complicated gender can be in a language! And your English is terrific! 😊

@cosmicvoid6202 Жыл бұрын

Good video. I get aggravated with a call-in show I watch on occasion where the hosts ask each caller their pronouns. If a caller refuses to provide them, the hosts start grilling them over why they refused it instead of just focusing on the question the caller wants to ask which has nothing to do with pronouns, gender, etc.

@firenzeval Жыл бұрын

Why would it be so hard for the caller to say? I agree it would be annoying for the host to keep going on about it though.

@christopherjohnson9167 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 exactly its all about control. Accept my ultra progressive view point or you are a heathen. Functioning like a religious purity test.

@CreativelyJake Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 I'm curious as to what parts of gender radicalism you regard as toxic. I'm... not super well versed, this isn't meant to be provocative or anything. I just wanna learn some more perspectives where I can

@theawfuldynne2528 Жыл бұрын

@@firenzeval As a trans person who hasn't transitioned yet, it's as he says. When pronouns are a required part of the introduction, I'm either forced to out myself, which isn't something I want to do casually, or I have to tell people to use the wrong pronouns. I assume they'll use the wrong pronouns regardless, but I hate to be the one requesting them. It's like punching myself in the gut. I've managed to almost completely avoid misgendering myself for most of my life, but the required pronouns in introductions make it impossible. It's not the end of the world, just unpleasant.

@laylagardner8728 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 That's a long winded way of saying you're a transphobe

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio Жыл бұрын

In Italian, the formal version of "you" is lei, which is also the third-person feminine pronoun. So when you're being polite, you're sort of referring to everyone as "she".

@palofrasca1775 Жыл бұрын

That's because it is a reference to "highness", "lordship" and other feminine nouns. You still inflect everything in the masculine gender when referring formally to a man (e.g., Lei è andato), and only use it as a second person pronoun. Pardon me if I was pedantic.

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio Жыл бұрын

@@palofrasca1775 Yes, I seem to recall Sua Maestà is used as the equivalent of "Your Majesty", when addressing royalty, even if male. So, it's kind of like saying, "his/her majesty", even though he's right in front of you. I'm sure it's completely natural for a native speaker though. I've only been studying Italian for about 8 months.

@palofrasca1775 Жыл бұрын

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio Correct! In Italian one could also say Vostra Maestà "your (plural) majesty", that's why "voi" (you plural) can also be used in formal speech. Though I'd argue it's quite rare nowadays. A lot of formal pronouns are born from the necessity of indirectly addressing a person's actions, out of respect. This is very evident in Japanese, for example. Once this sense of indirectness is lost, those fromal pronouns become very impolite. For example, omae was once a formal way of addressing somebody, meaning literally "(the person) in front (of me)". Nowadays if you address somebody by omae you might end up into a fight. :P

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio Жыл бұрын

@@palofrasca1775 Ah, so the "voi" makes it more similar to French, which is "vous" when being polite. That makes sense. I always wondered why the divergence happened between the languages. That's very interesting about omae. I hadn't heard that before.

@bacicinvatteneaca 4 ай бұрын

Sua maestà is incorrect/hypercorrect. Sua maestà would be using while talking about the king to someone else - a true third person. It used to be voi as default formal, and Lei (implying "vostra [feminine noun like excellency, lordship, majesty]") for high formal. Then in the north we started extending the high formal to anyone except parents and grandparents, then we started using tu for parents, then for grandparents too, and so voi was left unused and archaic and thus started to be perceived as more formal than Lei. In the south, Lei is still the seldom-used high formal, except in new corporate settings that span all of Italy

@anthonyt0808 3 ай бұрын

My hobby of learning six languages has left me feeling out of place and even lonely in our native monolingual USA. So glad to have found your program on KZbin. I am not completely alone any more! Thanks 👍👍

@petretepner8027 2 ай бұрын

The United States and Canada are (or were) home ot more than 300 different indigenous languages! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_languages_of_the_Americas#/media/File:Langs_N.Amer.svg

@devin6272 Жыл бұрын

I used to get so emotional about this because it’s just plain stressful when I don’t understand why it matters. Thanks for making it less scary

@fancydeer Жыл бұрын

...if it doesn't matter why are you so emotional about it? if someone says "hey can you call me (insert gendered term here)" just do it? since, like you said, it doesn't matter. why would it make you so emotional?

@twostupidasianonecupnoodle Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer people are scared of what they don’t understand. hopefully OP gets more knowledge on this subject and gets less emotional about it. people constantly learn and grow.

@alannothnagle Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeerYes, but 3rd person pronouns are really only used in the person‘s absence, so there is an automatic fear of denunciation and public shaming that burdens personal relationships, particularly if the preferred pronoun appears unnatural or contrived.

@honk42069 Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer OP didn't say it doesn't matter. Is reading hard for you or something?

@peterlewis2178 Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer Because, as stated in the video, it's not as easy as you think. It can be pretty mentally taxing to try to navigate respectfully, and the stress is only compounded when the whole concept seems illogical to you. Because it feels like you need to constantly bend over backwards for something pointless. That can understandably be frustrating and get someone emotional.

@XellossBoi Жыл бұрын

I love kindness and inclusion, and I also love linguistics. I'm glad someone finally said all of this. Thank you!

@shaunpatrick8345 Жыл бұрын

Demanding compliance is the ultimate unkindness. We should condemn them when they do it.

@shaunpatrick8345 Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 it's already come up in court in the UK - a rape victim had to refer to the man she accused as "she". These people are evil, and vastly powerful.

@rectangle8883 Жыл бұрын

@@shaunpatrick8345 that's not an actual trans person, its just someone pretending to be trans to be able to get to do things like that. real trans people don't do those things and are being given a bad rep

@shaunpatrick8345 Жыл бұрын

@@rectangle8883 there is no difference in law, no way to confirm it either way, and it is illegal to make the claim you did. Trans status is an identification, not a fact.

@rectangle8883 Жыл бұрын

@@shaunpatrick8345 if you actually looked into it more and did your research, real trans people have some kind of difference in the brain that makes them feel like a different gender from their sex.

@DSS712 11 ай бұрын

"requiring people to share their pronouns means that you either force people to out themselves or choose to be in the closet" YES. Honestly I struggle to wrap my head around why so many people think that there is anything remotely appropriate about wanting to "normalize the practice of everyone sharing their pronouns." The youtube search that led me to this video was sparked after I had an uncomfortable experience where I was suddenly asked for my pronouns by a new customer at work. It was literally the first thing they asked me upon our meeting. For context, I'm a cis woman with very short hair and my work clothes are androgynous simply for functional reasons. I'd never been asked that question before in my life. Moreover, I'd also never really thought much about my gender in terms of me being at my job. I stuttered and just told them to use whatever they felt comfortable with and moved onto the actual content of the business interaction, but in my head I was just thinking "why on earth is my gender identity relevant to you in this situation???" As you said, it felt similar to "where are you really from" questions regarding ethnicity and race. Like you, I'm not going to tell a stranger "my pronouns are she/her" because that would be implying that I give a crap whether people view me as a woman in every context, which I don't. Anyway my point here is this: to add to your point of not forcing people to out/closet themselves, I think another big problem with the normalization of "asking for other people's pronouns" is that it actually undermines the whole goal of gender equality, which is that gender honestly SHOULDN'T be relevant in most contexts. Other than my husband (for hopefully obvious reasons) and maybe some of the people closest to me in my life, I couldn't care less if other people recognize my gender identity, as long as they aren't being mean or judgmental on the grounds of gender. My gender is the most boring and innocuous aspect of my personhood and I'm not going to contribute to this weird assumption that a lot of left-wing echo chamber inhabits have that "being cis means having a deep connection to the gender you were assigned at birth." Sorry, but it's just not true and I'm not going to pretend that my womanhood is deeply important to me in all social/professional contexts if that isn't the case.

@KazarooniBallooni 10 ай бұрын

Hi, I totally agree with your critique of asking about pronouns, and your statement that your gender as a cis person not being important or relevant in most contexts is highlights something incredibly valuable. I think one aspect that is often overlooked is the level at which personal pronouns and personal gender affects one another. For you, you made it clear that they are innately interlinked, the fact that you identify as a cis woman informs the internal answer to "what are your pronouns?". However, to many people, their gender and their pronouns are not inherently linked, take for example someone that might use they/them but strongly identify as a feminine woman. If they are asked what their pronouns are, it may not activate an internal analysis of their gender, it could be akin to asking what their name is. I think this plurality of the link between gender and terminology is what makes people react quite differently to a deceptively simple question. To a certain extent, we have all faced prejudice/bias based on perceived gender, and I think that is the cause of why this is a difficult subject. I'm interested in your thoughts on all of this, and whether you believe there is a respectful way to approach pronouns for everyone, trans or otherwise. Would it be enough if someone asked you "if you are comfortable, what are your pronouns?", or would that still feel invasive or unnecessary?

@DSS712 10 ай бұрын

@@KazarooniBallooni thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think it would still be invasive and unnecessary because it still carries an implication of questioning someone's gender without a reasonable intent. I actually think it's potentially more harmful in the context of asking a trans person, because maybe they are putting in a lot of effort to pass and could view the experience of being asked this question as a sign that their efforts to pass are not successful. It's much better to just wait for more context clues or wait until the conversation has reached a casual enough level that it would feel more natural. As far as asking a stranger immediately upon meeting them, I can't see a scenario where it would be appropriate. And just to reply to something else in your comment, you gave the example of a person who uses they/them pronouns but identifies as a feminine woman. If I'm being frank, an example like this kind of demonstrates why i dont even really agree with the idea that we each even "have" our own third person pronouns in the first place. I don't see myself as "having" pronouns - when i present as I typically do as female, people refer to me as she, and when I'm in my androgenous work clothes, I wouldnt be surprised or offended if some people referred to me as "he" since it can be understandably hard to tell unless we are up close and chatting. In the English language, people generally passively pick which third person pronouns to use in their speech based on how they percieve a given person's gender presentation. By that logic, it fundamentally doesn't make sense for the person in your example to "not use" female pronouns if they are someone who in fact chooses present as what the average person would describe with female pronouns. I think in the example you gave, this person interprets this entire aspect of English grammar in an unconventional way, and it isn't fair to expect the average people they encounter in the world around them to align with that perspective of gender. The fact of the matter is that third person pronouns do not share the same grammatical function as a name or nickname, and if someone sees it that way then they must understand that their views are unconventional and so most people dont link any personal meaning whatsoever to the third person pronouns that pop out of their mouth when they are describing someone. It is totally valid however if this person chooses to primarily spend time with other people who share their interpretations of how third person pronouns function.

@rainkidwell2467 7 ай бұрын

@@DSS712yeah most cis people don't think about the third person pronouns because people seldom get them wrong, and when they do, the person doesn't double down and INSIST that you ARE a man. Most cis people will never have that experience, and while it might seem easy to ignore that type of incident, it gets harder to be okay after the thirtieth time it happens? When we say you're cis because you have a deep connection with your assigned gender, it's specifically because that connection runs so deep that you don't HAVE to think about it, it's just how things are.

@ArynWellspring 7 ай бұрын

Yeah, trans women here, and I hate whenever people on social media bully people into putting their pronouns in their bio. Not everyone, even in the queer community is comfortable with that and may themselves be closeted and not ready to say one way or another. It was a stupid trend that was going on and I am glad it has been happening less.

@PeanutStrawberry 7 ай бұрын

@@ArynWellspring honestly, it's such a cluster truck of nonsense (not pronouns themselves, the whole fight/discourse around them and genders & gender identities in general). It's like DSS said above: if someone is talking to me... why would they even use he/she/they in the first place? I'm pretty sure we only use I and You when we're two people speaking. So... asking for pronouns is like asking "what do I call you when I speak about you (to others)." It also cognates in my mind, like DSS said, with the " where are you from *really?* " type question. But even then, it's kind of a "meh" issue (to me). But what really grind my gears, so to speak, are two main things: sex erasure, and the neo/xeno-pronouns craze. The whole "gender" and derived terms are kinda simple to grasp (at least I personally think they are) when you read their definitions: Gender: "includes social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." So far, nothing complicated to me, but (and I know I'm the weirdo here and "normal people" don't read it like this, but) when I read "gender" I'm just automatically brought to its etymology in my head; gender is from "genus", meaning "kind, sort (of)." So "What gender are you?" is basically "What kind/sort (of human) are you?" and the above definition makes it easy to understand it's a sex based (male, female, and nonbinary/neutral) division. Gender identity: "the personal sense of your gender which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it." Just that bit does not *not* make sense either... it's simple. It's basically "the personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it." It is what I understand. And again, the definition reinforces that genders and gender identities are sex based divisions. Gender expression: "the external manifestation of your gender identity through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." So I understand this as "the external manifestation of your personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." It still makes sense (to me), even though replacing "gender" and "gender identity" with their own definitions inside the definition of "gender expression" makes it very clunky to read as is, and somewhat repetitive. But it's still comprehensible (to me), but it again reinforces genders, identities, and expressions as sex based divisions. And here comes my first problem in this whole discourse... sex erasure. I've read, listened to, and watched a lot of the same people who've relentlessly hammered in that "sex and gender are different" things now conflating the two terms, and often having gender just replace entirely sex in discussions and definitions. And that's the whole issue I got: how can sex and gender be two different concepts but be interchangeable? And if you try to erase/replace the concept of "sex" with "gender," what does gender mean? "Sex" is part of gender's definition itself. But if the gender (kind/sort) of Humans is not a sex based division, then it needs another term of reference, or else gender loses all meaning. Like... I don't remember which nation/people, but there's a people whose genders are "Life" based. So "humans, leaves on a tree, feathers, an animal, etc." are not "masculine/feminine" but "alive," and "rocks, trees, house, etc." are "non-alive" or something like that. If we don't want "genders" to be sex based divisions, well, we need to find another concept to base the division... or else "gender" just means nothing! If we want it sex based, life/non-life based, age based, etc. let's go for it! But it still needs a common concept, denominator for the definitions to make sense. Let's take age for example. If genders were age based divisions, then the definition for gender expression would become something like: "the external manifestation of your personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of *youngness, adulthood, seniority or other gender identity* which can correlate with your observed *age* or can differ from it through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with youngness, adulthood, seniority or other gender identity." See what I mean? And this brings in my second problem with the discourse... the goddamn neo/xenogenders/pronouns. Xir/xer? Fae/faer? Cat/catself? Tree/treeself? God/godself? What the fuuuuuuuuu-- It's completely chaotic! There's no logic, no sense! How can someone's gender/pronoun be "cat" or "fairy" or "god" ??? What's their common denominator? Where is the division? What's the linking coincept between those nonsensical "pronouns?" A defined and shared theme must be the base of gender divisions: for male/female/enby, it's sex; for youngness/adulthood/seniority, it's age/time; and for alive/non-alive, it's life. What is the shared concept linking cat, fairy, xir, and god!? How can your Human gender (kind/sort) be "cat" ? A Human man? Makes sense. A Human senior? Makes sense. A Human alive? Still makes sense! A Human cat? WTF!? Cats are animals... Humans are animals! How can one's gender (kind/sort) be another animal when we are already an animal? It's just wild and nonsensical! Honestly, those "neo/xenogenders/pronouns" really sound like attention-seeking tools, or rather... attempts at some sort of hyper individualization & dehumanization. Forget having to identify as male, female or intersex or nonbinary, it's... it's almost like they just don't want to identify as humans at all! I mean... what the hell are the "social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of a fae? Or a cat? Or a plant? Or god?" That's where I am completely flabbergasted and cannot wrap my mind around the heck those "neo/xenogenders/pronouns" are supposed to convey. Some folks conflate sexes and genders by accident because the definitions are linked by one's birth sex, and it's understandable... but some really, really want and dream of abolishing the concept of "sex" altogether and replace it with gender, but they don't replace "sex" in the definition of gender for another thematic concept; they don't attempt to give a coherent definition at times. And I can't shake off the feeling it's all because the majority of people have drastically bad literary and reading comprehensions. I have the impression lots of people into "xenogenders" are trying to convey... personality traits? Characteristics? Like... if someone says their gender is "cat/catself," it feels like they try to convey "I am feline" and not literally (at least I hope not literally) "I am a cat." I fail to see how any of these can even make sense as "genders," and it really, really gives out vibes of trying to be "personality/character traits" if my vision/explication of it makes sense. I'd very much like your impressions on the topic if you have any, and if you feel like sharing :P Sorry for the novel, but it's just impossible to talk about this stuff in just 4000 characters lol I've echoed a lot of my best friend's fiancée (transwoman too) here, and she's even more critical of everything around transgenderism, pronouns, genders, etc. than any of our group friend. Thanks for taking your time to read/listen 🙇‍♂

@elisakrivas 2 ай бұрын

I'm agender (it/its), and I couldn't agree more! Great video!

@604RPM Жыл бұрын

Great video. I've felt like the whole conversation wasn't really a conversation... but I couldn't put my finger on why. You've totally nailed it here. Thanks!

@echoc7213 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for laying this out so clearly! As a nonbinary person who loves language (I have a BA in English) and also doesn't get offended super easily, I've had this conversation a ton (not as clear-cut as you put it, but I did my best). It can get exhausting. I always try my best to respect people where they're at, and not 'force' anyone to expose themselves or accept anything if they're not ready. I'm always happy to have a conversation and educate when possible, and even though sometimes it can be exhausting, I've had a lot of really great conversations with people and gained a lot of differing perspectives. Language can be super confusing so it's great to find someone like you to try and bridge the gaps that have been created in recent years and share real information.

@jacobbaker5442 Жыл бұрын

Crazy how you have a degree in English but still call yourself non binary

@galaxylynn4434 Жыл бұрын

@@jacobbaker5442 crazy you think that's a good burn.

@jacobbaker5442 Жыл бұрын

@@galaxylynn4434 crazy you think that was an attempt at a burn

@spacegrass6632 Жыл бұрын

@@jacobbaker5442 crazy you think that's a sane take

@jacobbaker5442 Жыл бұрын

@@spacegrass6632 crazy how you think that's a sane take

@louisa3494 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for bringing up the point that "requiring people to share their pronouns means that you either force people to out themselves... or choose to be in the closet". I've been struggling a lot with my gender identity for the last year. I've never really had to worry about coming out to other people about it if I wasn't comfortable doing so, until a questionnaire came up at work and asked me what my gender identity is. I could either lie and say my perceived gender, put my current identity on there, or write "prefer not to advise". All of those options were very uncomfortable and I couldn't quite pinpoint why until you said that.

@lihns Жыл бұрын

Honestly the worst when you give pronouns that mark you as trans and people still misgender you, bonus points if it’s by accident

@nightlight2499 Жыл бұрын

@@lihnsthat’s literally me every fucking day… they literally can’t remember

@bawieland Жыл бұрын

Just want to say you aren't alone

@burlapknapsack 6 ай бұрын

I've had to force myself to adopt an idgaf attitude to deal with this situation. But it was a conscious decision and the first time I did that I had to psych myself up. Sometimes I get shy about it again and have to rebuild myself emotionally about it. Ugh.

@JedynArneson Ай бұрын

@@lihns btw pronouns are based on sex, which means they can't be changed unless you somehow biologically became the opposite sex (or gender, because those words are synonyms).

@Danielle_The_Endearing 2 ай бұрын

I am amazed by the amount of highly intelligent statements made by this person. I was looking for some usual hatred, but fortunatelly found some more polished diamond than I have seen for the most of my night yt search period, thanks for marking some important issues and thanks for such a fresh and considering point of view