Lathe Electronic Lead Screw and Cross Slide Part 1

This is a multi-part series to add an electronic lead screw AND electronic cross slide to my Emco Maximat 7 lathe. This time I determine what pulleys and belts to order so I can attach an encoder to the spindle.
I purchased the ELS 4 Basic from here: www.rocketronics.de/en/els/

[@colinjohnson5515]

DHL is famous for delaying or “losing” shipments. Several YT creators recently documented issues by shipping Apple AirTags. I would always use every other option.

[@JohnSL]

At the time, that was the only choice from Rocketronics. They added UPS as a result of my experience.

[@RocketronicsDe]

Great to see you making videos from the conversion, the quality is very nice, thank you. Due to high demand I did not have the time to make a video series of the ELS4, which is badly necessary, as it has so many functions one can hardly see from the website or manual. It is a great tool, and there is almost 9 years of work inside that little box. I hope you get your conversion done easily, and get to work with it soon.

[@bradgeary3467]

does your product do inch

[@RocketronicsDe]

Hi, currently only metric, but we will soon release a firmware update which supports imperial units (inch). It is being tested currently.

[@bradgeary3467]

Thank u for reply. I’ve recently ordered a ELS kit from one of your competitors currently in shipping and discovered your product here last night. Your Pro model is extremely appealing to me and to plan my conversion am wondering if you might have any inclination as to the “inch update” becoming available? I understand your testing results will largely dictate time but your sense? is testing looks promising and your almost ready or early testing was a complete disastrous experience resulting in hardware failure your not certain you can work through.

[@karlkiernan6863]

I found this very interesting looking forward to watching the rest in the morning with breakfast.

[@JohnSL]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@RustyInventions-wz6ir]

Interesting. Very nice work.

[@someotherdude]

I've watched a lot of these ELS projects, and I think your explanation is the best I've seen yet. You're a huge help!

[@JohnSL]

Glad it was helpful! I'm getting ready to start the next phase of this project, powering the cross slide.

[@burningdieselproduction5498]

Oh, very cool project John! Can't wait to see where this takes you!

[@JohnSL]

I'm really looking forward to getting this running and seeing how it performs. Combining this with the solid tool post mount that replaced the compound (top slide) I think will be a real winner. More rigid, easier threading, more precise tapers, etc. We'll see how it actually turns out.

[@burningdieselproduction5498]

@@JohnSL Yeah, the compound removal is the one that you feel the most "upgrade" on. Now that you are looking at going solid tool post I would like to propose thinking about gang tooling. It does not have to be full gang tooling kind of story. You can make something like 3 to 4 tools gang tool block that is held in a QCTP holder. I guess it all depends on what kind of work you'll be doing... Have fun and stay in the workshop, that's where all the health is nowadays! Stay healthy!

[@JohnSL]

I already have an A-sized Multifix mounted in place of the compound, which I covered in a previous video. That allows me to use up to 3/4" holders. The ELS 4 Basic box has some canned cycles, but no support for g-code. I checked the manual, and I don't see anything about tool offsets. So gang tooling wouldn't help.

[@stevelecain886]

thats the exact lathe I have and also mine has the milling attachment, this segment is very interesting to me as I would like to cut threads as well, watching intently. love the channel by the way.

[@JohnSL]

Thanks! It's a very nice little machine. I haven't used the milling attachment yet because I need to make some parts for it with metric threads. I was going to use the gears for that and decided to wait until I have the ELS working.

[@baconlips]

Great video! Thanks for the reminder to prove your parts before buying. These controllers are a game changer. DHL to Canada for any reason is an exercise in frustration, surprise expense and determination (never to use DHL - even if it's for a fresh kidney you need!).

[@piccilos]

Looking forward to this

[@JohnSL]

Me too :-).

[@joer8486]

Great Video and Excellent descriptions. I would like to see more details for how you generated the belt in your 3d model. Is this described somewhere else? Also - a definition of what you mean by BeltDiameter and BeltCenterToCenter would be good. I'm trying to do the same model as yours except for two pulleys with different number of teeth.

[@johnyoungquist6540]

I made an electronic gear box for a Hardinge toolroom lathe many years ago. The carriage on this lathe is made of thick steel plates and is very heavy. I used a large SmartMotor (closed loop servo not stepper) that has internal program capability. Only a couple of lines of code were required to get it to track an encoder with a ratio (to cut threads). I used the motors I/O to scan and read a BCD thumbwheel switch to set thread pitch. If the number set was within inch thread range it did inches if it was within metric range it did metric. While the gear box code was only 2 lines long the rest was about 50 lines. Probably the smallest app I ever wrote. Probably took an hour or two. It took a large 34 size motor and a 3:1 planetary gear box to get good acceleration. I did not even try a stepper for fear it would loose steps during acceleration. Even large CNC lathes need some room to accelerate and sync up before cutting a thread. You start your thread a few turns off the work and accelerate in empty space toward the material. I can make a few recommendations on steppers. Steppers are not not high speed servo motors. They have no voltage rating only a current rating. Operate them from as high a voltage as possible. At least 48 volts if possible, I like 60V and have used 180V. High voltage is not hard on the motor because the current is controlled, nor will it affect its life. They will loose steps if they are not operated closed loop. An encoder somewhere in the system is not the same as one on the motor connected to the driver. Larger diameter is better way to get torque than longer length. You will likely need a bigger motor than you think. If operated with ordinary driver they will loose torque quickly as speed increases. This depends on the motor inductance and voltage. Once you have the motor Increasing the voltage is the only path to improvement. At high speed you can expect a 90% reduction in torque. Micro-stepping might change the sound of the motor but does little else. If you have enough slide travel some gang tooling will give you tool changer functionality. Even a few tools will be very useful. If you use a bar puller you can even feed automatically for the next part. If this German controller does a good job you should have a magnificent machine when you are done Good luck!

[@JohnSL]

Thanks John. This is a pretty small machine so doesn't need very large stepper motors. I chose to go with a closed-loop stepper for the Z axis, but I'll most likely use a small NEMA 23 stepper for the Y as I can gear it down (using belts and pulleys) if I need the torque. Neither of these motors will be going that fast, as I'm not that concerned about speed. This is a hobby machine, so if it takes a little longer to make a part, that's not a problem. I already have a 48V power supply, which is what I used for my pick and place machine I built several years ago (I wrote all the code for that machine). The ELS 4 Basic is NOT a CNC controller. It has a bunch of canned cycles for things like threading and taper cutting. But nothing more. If I decide I really want CNC, I might replace this machine with one built for CNC (including variable speed for the spindle).

[@johnyoungquist6540]

@@JohnSL I can't believe it. have spent years on Pick and Place machines and have several patents in the field one was the very very rare first time allowance. I did my own closed loop motor controllers that would run a stepper that normally ran out of torque at 1200 rpm and quit before 2000 rpm at 11,000 rpm and have a very flat torque curve. I know sounds preposterous but its true. I did my own optical centering system, designed my own feeders and on and on. I studied belt driven positioning system with a laser interferometer and concluded they were junk. I wire EDM'd my own sprockets to get precision but didn't help much. I of course wrote all the code for the machine and the optics.

[@feelindizzy777]

great, i have a maximat v10, els 4 basic and servo pack but haven't got round to attaching it. as you said not much info out there so i'll be watching this closely. thanks

[@JohnSL]

Cool. Hope my videos help you get your machine up and running. I know the V10 is a larger machine, but I don't really know much more about it.

[@bobweiram6321]

Cool project! Can't wait to see the results. I would try and keep everything as simple as possible. Do both the spindle and lead screw monitored with an encoder? A fully closed loop where both are monitored gives the best result, since it can detect wether the lead screw has lost synchronization and instantly react by either shutting down or disengaging the lead screw.

[@JohnSL]

Thanks. Yes, I'm trying to keep it simple, but without modifying the Emco. The ELS 4 Basic doesn't have a way to take feedback from X or Z. So if X or Z loses steps, it would most likely ruin the part or break something. I will need to add an emergency stop button to shut it down manually (strongly recommended in the manual). That's the only protection they provide, I believe.

[@RocketronicsDe]

If I may answer that: We do not have a closed loop monitoring here, but you can use closed loop steppers, which we recommend using on the Z-Axis. This way you receive an error signal which can be fed to the error input of the ELS4, to stop operations when anything goes wrong. Normally you set up the drives so they can handle the forces, but closed loop steppers give an extra security. On small lathes you can drive quite fast with fast acceleration too, if you like, but normally we set this up not at maximum possible speeds. I would not recommend servomotors, as they do not have any advantages here, closed loop steppers are the better choice here, no tuning needed, run out of the box.

[@UncleKennysPlace]

Having assembled three of Clough42's setups, I can tell you that the only real issue is getting the encoder and steppers (I'm adding Y axis) mounted, which is needed regardless of which setup you go with. Certainly the ELS4 system is more elegant, and more capable out of the box. The Clough system is cheaper, but requires more know-how, and altering the configuration can be onerous if you don't do any programming. I like the ELS4, and ultimately it would be cheaper, if I pay myself anything for dev time!

[@JohnSL]

The ELS 4 also has some features that the Clough42 version doesn't have. I had considered adding those features to James' software before I found the ELS 4. Here are some of the things I found very attractive. * You can set and end position for Z. * With the X axis set up, it will do automatic thread cutting, which means you can cut threads right up to a specific stop. And it will work really well without a compound (which I took off my machine to increase rigidity) * Taper cutting without a compound And a lot more. So given all the features, I decided it was worth it. Plus, when you add up all the other costs (stepper motors, drivers, power supply pulleys, and belts), it's not that much more.

[@MrCoffeypaul]

Small lathes are are ideal conversions because they usually don't have the power to make deep cuts but cnc gives you the option to make alot of shallow cuts.

[@JohnSL]

One of the nice features of the threading cycle on the ELS 4 Basic is they give you the option to use one that takes about even cuts rather than equal depth cuts. And it will allow me to do thread cutting with the solid tool post in place of the compound, so I'll have a much more rigid setup.

[@eriksten4634]

Thank you very much. Been thinking of a similar coversion for my Emco 8. Didn't do any research yet. Didn't even turn any parts. Wasn't aware of that box. Will you keep the split nut?

[@JohnSL]

Thanks. Yes, I will be keeping the split nut. I want to be able to use it both manually (with the ELS just driving the lead screw) and with canned cycles. I'm not sure how that will work out, but that's the plan.

[@arbjful]

Really awesome project. What encoder is that? Where did you buy that from?

[@danielminskey]

Very interesting...i bougth all of cloughs components...maybe i will go this route instead ..i have a mint condition 1963 Atlas TH42...i do not want to alter the case in any way...your version may work better we shall see...thank you for doing the video...

[@JohnSL]

I purchased Clough42's components as well before finding this box. The ELS 4 Basic already had the additional functionality I was contemplating adding, plus more. After thinking about it and realizing I have too many projects, I went with the ELS 4 Basic rather than modifying James' code and boards. I keep reminding myself to focus :-).

[@billdevany3303]

DHL sucks. last thing I got from them was delivered a mile from my house on the side of the road. lucky for me a neighbor found it and got it to me.

[@bradgeary3467]

does it do inch? it’s not stated on their website so i’m guessing not

[@giacomo7625]

Hello. I congratulate you on your video: very clear, very interesting and excellent quality. I would like to purchase and use "ELS 4 basic" as a divider, to cut gears. Can you please tell me what is the maximum resolution in "ANGLE" mode? I downloaded the manual but could not find this information. For example, if I want to make a gear with 127 teeth, can I set the angular displacement of the spindle in steps of 2.84 degrees? Thank you for your answer.

[@JohnSL]

I have no idea. I can speculate, but your best bet would be to contact Rocketronics and ask them. That being said, I'm guessing it would be a function of the number of pulses your encoder creates per revolution. The higher, the more accurate. But the ELS 4 Basic I believe has an upper limit on the number of pulses per second that it can handle, which means a higher number of pulses per revolution would reduce the maximum spindle speed.

[@giacomo7625]

@@JohnSL thank you for your precise and immediate reply. I agree with your hypothesis. The manual also mentions the relationship between the encoder resolution and the spindle speed limit. Regarding the resolution of the angle, the manual only says that, after having set the "zero", by manually turning the spindle (chuck), the angle of the relative position will be seen on the display. I will follow your suggestion and contact the manufacturer. I think it is a detail of common interest. It would add great potential to a lathe (I have an EMCO MAXIMAT 10V-P). I will post any updates here. I am waiting to see your next video. Thank you.

[@RocketronicsDe]

Hi, the ELS4 has a resolution based on the encoder ppr: If you use the recommended 400 ppr encoder you get 1600 steps / 360° = 360/1600 = 0,225°.

[@giacomo7625]

@@RocketronicsDe many thanks for your reply. I was looking for this information.

[@VuTNgo]

Are you still operating the Morgan injection molder, Sir? Can you help me in learning that because I’m about to get one. I very appreciate it.

[@JohnSL]

Yes I am! There isn't much to learn about using it, and I've documented what I've learned in my other videos. Where there specific questions not answered in those videos? If so, let me know and that will be a good topic for a future video.

[@eduardodaquiljr1621]

John,can we install electronic lead screw for a high speed lathe (3250rpm max)my lathe,mitsubishi has no lead screw and planning to inatall what like you did.

[@JohnSL]

Yes, this unit will go up to 6,000 RPM. It's all about having the right settings and encoder. I do have an extra unit I got because of shipping issues (the first one was lost for months and eventually showed up, so I paid for it as well). If you're interested in buying that (in the U.S.), you can get my email here: kzbin.infoabout

[@sblack48]

Does this els allow you to work in imperial units?

[@JohnSL]

I asked him about this a year ago, and he said he had another project that he needed to finish first. I found a message from him on his Facebook page from about 3 months ago saying he's working on it. So hopefully soon. I've cut imperial screws with it without any problems--just have to do the unit conversion.

[@snaplash]

Some years ago, I ordered a new chuck from Myford in the UK, and it got held up at a customs broker in NYC where I had to send them money for the duty before they forwarded it to me. Is this still something that happens when ordering stuff from Europe?

[@JohnSL]

It did show up a few months later....

[@dave_bob]

DHL is a 4th rate company