The Great Lithium Lie - How You Are Being Misled About Lithium Batteries (Lithium vs Lead Acid)

Don't believe everything you see or read on the internet. In this case, there is a very deceiving statement that is popular on numerous websites that will mislead you if you aren't careful. In this video, we will briefly touch on this lie about lithium vs lead acid, where it comes from, and what you should believe instead. #lithiumpower #leadacidpower #misleadingmarketing #batterycyclelife
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OneCharge battery picture owned by MaximKhabur and reproduced without alteration and posted in accordance with Creative Commons licensing (creativecommon...)
In this video I used an image of a lithium battery manufactured by OneCharge, which I believed to be in the public domain and free to use (see above). However, it has come to my attention that, while I did have permission to use the photo, I did not have permission to use the trademark of their logo. I have since blurred the logos in the video and would like to publicly apologize for associating their brand with the video. It was not my intent to call out any particular brand for using misleading marketing. I was trying to bring attention to the general misuse of battery capacity and cycle life claims by proponents of lithium batteries. I stand by the content of the video but I regret using the OneCharge logo in the video and I am working with them to correct the issue.

[@LDSreliance]

FAQ: Q: I have never heard someone say that a lithium battery can be drained to 0, you moron! A: Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it isn't out there all over the place. Here is a list I compiled in 10 minutes on Google (as of 2020): Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD *Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD Relion Battery (relionbattery.com/blog/tech-tuesday-depth-of-discharge#:~:text=LiFePO4%20batteries%20can%20be%20continually,is%20no%20long%2Dterm%20effect.&text=Lithium%20batteries%20provide%20100%25%20of,with%20higher%20rates%20of%20discharge.) - "LiFePO4 batteries can be continually discharged to 100% DOD and there is no long-term effect." ChargeX Lithium Ion Batteries (www.lithiumion-batteries.com/12v100ahlithiumbattery.php) - "Use 100% of rated capacity" Relion Battery (relionbattery.com/blog/tech-tuesday-depth-of-discharge#:~:text=Most%20lead%20acid%20batteries%20experience,are%20discharged%20below%2050%25%20DOD.&text=Lithium%20batteries%20provide%20100%25%20of,with%20higher%20rates%20of%20discharge.) - "Most lead acid batteries experience significantly reduced cycle life if they are discharged below 50% DOD. ... Lithium batteries provide 100% of their rated capacity, regardless of the rate of discharge, while lead-acid batteries typically provide less usable energy with higher rates of discharge." Solar Builder Magazine (solarbuildermag.com/featured/how-to-replace-lead-acid-batteries-with-lithium-batteries/) - "Most FLA battery manufacturers recommend not exceeding 50% DoD for maximum cycle life of their batteries... The top performing LFP batteries provide 80 to 100 percent DoD." *BattleBorn has since taken down the link above but you can still find the original PDF here: www.invertersupply.com/media/data/1547_BattleBorn-LINE.pdf Q: BattleBorn says you can safely go to 0% on their batteries and still last for 3,000 cycles! A: That is fine, but you are missing the point of the video. There IS a relationship between depth of discharge (DoD) and cycle life. So if BattleBorn or any other company wants to rate their cycle life at 0% state of charge (SoC), that is great. But the point of the video is that if you discharged that battery down to 20% SoC, you would get MORE cycle life out of the battery. It may not be as pronounced with lithium batteries as some other chemistries. But that is also not the point of the video.

[@susanmaris729]

I have only begun to research batteries, and I have heard plenty of 'experts' say you can do that without serious damage. Thank you for the Heads UP!

[@RyanBorger]

Battleborn batteries have a built in bms, 100% discharge is not 100% of the actual charge.. ffs. You run lithium to 0% charge and you degradate the cells. Full stop. No company recommends fully discharging a lithium cell.

[@fldallyb]

@@RyanBorger Thank you. This videos is a misleading lie. Practically every lithium battery has a BMS in the battery itself. The battery can be discharged 100% and the cells are protected with a remaining 20%. No where does he say that’s in his video. Technically you could connect to a lithium battery drain it to zero and then connect to a lead battery drain it to zero. The lead battery is completely dead the lithium still has 20% reserve that the BMS will not allow to be touched.

[@clarkvalcoic1736]

@@fldallyb lithium batteries do not have BMS's in them unless you buy the packaged kind as in a Battleborn. Example you can buy lifepo 4 batteries from Ali express which are 4 (3.2 volt 100ah) Batteries put them in series to get a 12v battery. For these you must add a BMS to prevent damage from over/under discharge. I bought a lifepo 4s 12v 200ah battery for 350$.

[@junkerzn7312]

@@clarkvalcoic1736Nobody in their right mind runs a multi-cell lithium based battery system without a BMS. Period, end of story. Even those piss-poor little lithium 12V gel-cell replacements have BMS's in them. LiFePO4 cells have very low internal resistances... the BMS is required not only for balancing and low and high voltage cutt-offs, but also for over-current protection and fire safety. No BMS is going to allow a lithium cell to be completely discharged. The default low voltage cut-off is typically set to something like 10.5V to 11.0V for a 12V system (roughly 2.625 to 2.75V). An completely emptied cell runs 2.5V. BMS's will allow lithium cells to be charged to 100%, actually even higher... upwards of 120% if you mis-program the charge controller. But they will not allow the lithium cells to be over-volted. A LiFePO4's electrolyte's breakdown voltage is 4.2V per cell. The fully charged voltage is somewhere around 3.6V (and settles down to around 3.2-3.3V, still remaining fully charged). Most BMS's will not allow cell voltages to exceed 3.65V by default. In otherwords, there is a huge amount of room for error before you actually start to seriously damage a LiFePO4 cell. You can over-charge cells and that will result in capacity loss (early wearout), but it is a far cry from what happens when someone abuses a lead-acid cell. (I'm sure some of you may have seen KZbin channels where people hook up tons of lithium cells together and call it a day, particularly smaller cells, but doing so without a BMS is a great way to burn your house down). -Matt

[@lincolnkarim1]

I have a dual battery ebike. I used to switch over to the #2 battery after the #1 was completely dead. I felt like something was being distorted or being stressed in the battery when I allow it to drain to zero. I now switch over at the halfway point of my commute. It's good to know there's some science to my gut feeling. Thank you.

[@LDSreliance]

You are welcome. Thanks for watching!

[@richardowens9061]

Remember, a properly designed BMS is going to stop a LiFePO4 battery from being discharged below 20% of rated capacity by disconnecting the loads. And, a meter designed to display State of Charge (SOC) can be calibrated to make the 20% mark display as 0% - if it is intended to display usable capacity. In other words, at 20% SOC, you have 0% of usable capacity available. So, from the user's perspective, they ARE getting 100% - because, the BMS disconnects the loads when their SOC meter displays 0% available. The Apple IPhone does this. When it shows 0%, the battery actually has about 20% left. You just can't use it.

[@headdown1]

I am full time RVing with 909 amp hours of LifeBlue lithium iron phosphate batteries and 1300 watts of solar panels. The manufacturer if I recall guarantees 85% capacity after 2500 cycles. I have seen their test chart, and the batteries actually did much better than that. They were discharged to zero percent at the high rate of 1C, then immediately charged to 100% at 1C. They endured this for 2700 cycles, and were still showing 94% capacity. This is brutal treatment compared to what anyone is ever going to put a LifeBlue battery through. After 4 1/2 years of constant use, and 543 cycles, my Lifeblue batteries have exactly the same capacity as the day I bought them - 909 amp hours. I do only discharge to around 50% most of the time, simply because 1 tank of gas in my generator will take the batteries from 50 to 100% if I need to use it. I think the last time was two months ago. At this rate they should last about 6000 cycles before dipping below 85%. This will take me about 40 years. They are going to outlast me and the RV by so many years that I will take them to zero percent without hesitation if I need to do so. That is nothing compared to what the manufacturer has already put them through. And discharging to zero is not something I would want to do at all to lead acid batteries, which I hope to never have to use again.

[@a64738]

Yes the only lie here is this video that is misleading...

[@Deviated09]

be mindful that the lithium wears out with age, not only with use. you should expect to see degradation by age before long. typically after several years, the lithium starts to degrade noticeably, even if it's never been cycled once.

[@headdown1]

@@Deviated09 That is an issue with lithium ion. Mine are lithium iron phosphate, and as far as I know, calendar life is not really a concern. This November will be 5 years and I still have not lost a single percent of capacity in the battery bank.

[@Deviated09]

@@headdown1 i was under the impression it was for both... I will look into that more. Thank you for pointing out the distinction, I have more reading to do I guess!

[@rkaag99]

I'd just like to add a thought. Most of the LiFePO4 systems have a built-in battery management system (BMS) which will stop you from getting to the damaging level of discharge (and overcharge for that matter). What that percentage is depends on where the manufacturer sets the BMS, but your information should allow a better 'apples-to-apples' comparison. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[@LDSreliance]

That is true. But then that is even more reason that people need to stop assuming 100% DoD for lithium in their calculations.

[@LDSreliance]

No, no it isn't. Go look at your Simpliphi battery ratings. It is rated to 80% DoD on cycle life but then all of a sudden the capacity is rated at 100% DoD which is where the number, such as 1.4, in the name of the battery comes from. It is all smoke and mirrors and the consumer needs to be aware of how to properly compare batteries.

[@arnoldtm31]

You're wrong. LiFePO4 has a lower energy density than Li ion and Lipo batteries. They are very stable and usually do not need a bms as much as the other 2 systems.

[@Dr_Wrong]

@@LDSreliance how could you know what 80% was if they didn't tell its 100% capacity? Not much different than any other specs, one might tell you max life potential, the other is how much juice if you needed it all in one stretch. Cars don't get their rated (best) gas mileage when operated at their peak rated horsepower.. It's almost like you expected your _(battery)_ car to get sticker rated gpm even when going up hill & full of bricks.. Same with food, one spec tells you how many calories per serving, a different spec tells you how many servings are in the box.

[@CajunWolffe]

I build my own batteries from individual and closely matched 3.2 VDC LiFePO4 cells, I order them out of China, and yes I use a BMS. If you know what your doing, this is a very good and inexpensive way to go, If you don't, then stick to pre-made batteries, you're still coming out cheaper in the long game. The trick is to have enough battery capacity to where you're never getting down to 80% DOD or more. I live in an older remolded class A motor home with just north of a 1000 Ah battery bank at 48 volts VDC. Once parked and all panels deployed I have 8000W at 48 VDC via 24 VDC panels in series/parallel and can go two days without full sun or cloudy rainy days and not get below 50%, three days and I'm around 20% at full loads, I've used 80% of my batteries. My point being is that with the proper capacity I'm rarely using 25-30% of my battery bank overnight, and this is running my mini-split AC. With the quality of cells and BMS's I'm using I'm looking at 3000 to 5000 cycles of cell life and 3000 cycles, if you fully cycle them every day is 8 freaking years. And their still good batteries, just slightly diminished in capacity. It cost me about $1400 to build a 24 VDC battery at 280 Ah. Do I have a lot of money I batteries? Hell yeah, I do, but compared to what I'd spend over 10 years for the same power in Lead-Acid the LiFePO4 batteries are dirt cheap. Quite often I stay at RV parks for half or less because I don't need to plugin to power. She's 32 feet long with a 3-foot bumper/hitch extension/platform on the back where I carry all kinds of crap and pull my Jeep. It took me a couple of years of saving my pennies to buy and build the batteries, but good solar panels are dirt cheap.

[@offgridwanabe]

It really doesn't matter how much is left in the tank if the BMS cuts you off you got 100% of what the battery was designed to give you.

[@offgridwanabe]

@David Pumpkini Yes I have both and there is much more control on the self programmable BMS. But the batteries with the built in BMS are idiot proof.

[@notyoung]

Thank you. Nice that I'm not the only one who sees some battery "information" as a 2AM cable TV infomercial - or maybe a New Jersey used car dealer. My "magic numbers" are 50% for AGM, 60% for generic lithium (the ubiquitous 18650) and 80% for LiFePO4. From experience, I've gotten 9 years from a set of AGMs using 50% DOD and I wrote a battery monitor for Windows laptops that has settable thresholds but I usually have it flash at 43% and beep at 39% - that gives multi-year life of the laptop batteries (nearly all composed of 18650 cells). I don't yet have LiFePO4 batteries (got a very good deal on AGMs when I replaced the old set a year and a half ago) but I've done a lot of research (manufacturer's specs and user experiences) plus knowing that other lithium-based batteries don't like complete discharge and the best answer I found was not exceeding 80% DOD. When I replace the current set of AGMs (12 volt, 420AH, used for short-term power outages - typically less than a day), I'll be giving LiFePO4 a serious look. I compared the numbers on two 100AH Battleborn batteries (at $2000) to 420AH of nearly new AGMs (at just over $300). For occasional use, the AGMs with 210 AH useful capacity beat the Battleborns with 200 * 0.8 = 160AH of useful capacity and for a lot less. If this were primary power and the batteries saw a daily discharge/charge cycle, the LiFePO4 win out in number of cycles. For less than once per month use, the AGMs will have more than adequate life.

[@RechargeableLithium]

Lead is a better match for this sort of backup power because lead prefers to be stored fully charged. Lithium should be stored at 50% SOC. One might not make the 10 year life for a LiFePO4 pack that's kept fully charged for backup. Sounds like you're making the same choice I'd make!

[@fc436]

but if you discharge 80% lifepo4 , last a lot less than if you discharge 20%. This is the point. not the absolute point

[@northerniltree]

The Energizer bunny was recently arrested and charged with battery.

[@nickdannunzio7683]

I install and maintain -48V battery UPS systems for Comcast and Verizon head ends... all the systems and battery types I encountered in the last 20+ years never drain or charge any battery 100%... typically they charge low and slow, discharging to about 25 to 30% and recharging to 92 to 97%... I have removed functioning systems that were 25 years old for reasons other than failure...

[@guytech7310]

There is a major difference between UPS & off-grid inverter systems. The UPS system are infrequently used (only during a brown out or power outage). Off-grid systems are in constant use. Batteries are used when ever the source power output decreases or stops producting power (ie PV at night).

[@gsxr440]

Who says that I've never heard anyone say that I've always heard and known that you should never drain a lithium battery past a certain point ..

[@TheWickerShireProject]

I've dealt with Lead acid in the worst conditions. I never saw 3 years of life. I beat he pickle out of them. Why? I was planning on moving to Alaska to go off the grid. I began to learn about Lithium. Happy for the newer more stable LiFiPO4. Our biggest problem on the test was Lead losing Voltage as it was being drained. It was very hard to pull high amps from them or charge them fast too. Lithium test we did proved much better. They took higher charge and loved to discharge in general. Both lead and Lith hated being cold or too hot. So we treat them like little kids now and make sure to keep them in a thick insulated box when traveling or indoors like a Garage, basement. 20 degree difference from the elements helped us maintain better usable total energy. When using Lead We try NOT to go below 20% preferring to use 100% full down to 80%. I can get 3 years out of them now. Lithium does see a wild discharge. We use 95% full down to 20% on a few days before the Parameters in the BMS cut them off. On average we use 95%full down to 42%. Our lithium never charges to full. Our 95% full = 100%. The 5% head space is so we do not accidently ever over charge causing damage. The Battery bank is warm or cool to the touch but, Never hot. I'm hoping they last more then 10+ years. Its been 2 years they retain Most of their usable energy. Our Lead are back up to Jump start the Lithium if something goes wrong and it drains down too far and the charge controller ( Out back FM 80 ) cannot restart the charge in the morning. I think I need to change the Values on our BMS cut off point. It may have been set too low below the Knee, where voltage for lithium plummets. In two years I've seen our Bank read 0 volts. I think the BMS remain OFF until we can jump start the system as they are PROTECTING the bank. The Outback will not charge anything if it doesn't see a Battery voltage and there lies our complication. Please feel free to ad in any advice on out back systems we do not know about. Might be a setting we have wrong. Again the Problem is the Mppt charge controller cannot jump the system as it does not see a voltage from the battery bank. P.S. Once I pop a lead acid 12v on the Battery end for 3 seconds our OutBack wakes up and climbs to 42+ volts in seconds and with in a minute reveals the true state of charge in the lithium bank and the entire system goes back on line and charges in a few hours of full sun. Battery is from a 300v+ EV Smart for two car. This is Three 100v+ cells. Each cell was cut in Half making SIX 48v Banks.

[@LDSreliance]

Great experience. Thanks for posting!

[@priyabratasadhukhan6435]

I think the low battery cut-off voltage of your inverter is set at a lower value than that of the BMS, that's why the BMS shuts off before the inverter and the whole system goes into blackout. Remember the BMS is the last line of defense to save the battery from abuse. The inverter should be primarily responsible for well being of the battery. So, try setting the low battery cut-off voltage of your inverter to a higher value. In this way, the inverter output will stop before the BMS, and the system will still have enough voltage (and power of course) to maintain standby till the next morning.

[@tautliners]

I have 4x R20 1.5 zinc chloride batteries bought from Morrisons supermarket years ago. The expiry date shows 05/2006 all are still fully charged 02/2021. I was totally amazed when I tested them all.👍

[@coenraadloubser5768]

Have you ever used them?

[@alainarchambault2331]

I like to think that I'm less likely to drain a battery to less than 80% in an emergency or error than 50% via a traditional lead-acid. Even at that as you've stated a lithium battery would take less of a hit. It's also much lighter too.

[@a64738]

They say on the information that came with the lithium battery I just bought that it is rated at 2000 charge cycles at 100% discharge, 3000 charge cycles at 80% and 5000 cycles at 50%. You choose yourself how many charge cycles you want out the battery by how low down you cycle it, 100% if you are happy with only 2000 cycles. AGM batteries I have looked at have rating 500 charge cycles life span at 50% discharge...

[@RyanBorger]

I've been building battery packs with lithium for almost a decade, and never heard anyone say draining to zero is ok..

[@bigdickpornsuperstar]

I hear it all the time but mostly in the context of handheld electronics like smartphone, tablets, and laptops.

[@GilmerJohn]

@@bigdickpornsuperstar It's dangerous to zero drain when you have 2 or more cells in series. What happens is that the slightly less capacity cell ends up being "negatively charges." That's trues of most technologies to include Lead/Acid car batteries. One reason most handheld electronics are designed to work at 3 to 4 volts is because it only needs a single cell. When it's discharged, it's difficult to bring it down to less than a volt and impossible to "negatively charge" it.

[@jameskirk5843]

I'm not endorsing draining NIFE cells to zero volts. I am pointing out that NIFE cells are extremely robust and can be completely discharged without being damaged. You can actually do that to them for a million cycles and they will still not degrade.

[@bigdickpornsuperstar]

@@jameskirk5843 ~ And you're engineering degree comes from where? I'll stick with what the actual certified professional engineering design expert in the video is saying.

[@jameskirk5843]

@@bigdickpornsuperstar If I told you I graduated from Caltech with degrees in computer and electrical engineering and made my first million at 28, would that be a strong enough 'argument from authority' for you!? Solar and wind doesn't even approach the near zero carbon footprint of Nuclear. Yet, real environmentalists such as myself have to combat liberal ideologues and a STEM illiterate population hell bent on destroying what's left of global biodiveristy by pushing semiconductor-centric "renewables" and a 'chemical battery' powered world. Remarkable ignorance.

[@whitelfner4582]

Thank you! A very refreshing correct viewpoint. Been running a 16.5 kWh forklift battery. People warn me about taking it below 50% SOC. I remind them it's Warrantied to go to 20% SOC daily for 5 years... I'm over 11 years in on this battery and will be looking and comparing Lithium to Flooded Lead Acid as a replacement. It would cost $2700 to replace my battery, and like that it lives outside and don't have to worry about it freezing. Even inside I would have to have heater type lithium or creaked a heated rack environment for them. As it would be inside, I'd want a UL rating for home use not sure any inexpensive lithium alternatives are available.

[@plonkster]

The 50% mark is a rule of thumb that is parroted by many internet experts. In the end, every battery will suffer a gradual decrease in capacity over time, and the designer decides what parameters he will use when specifying a battery. If you really think about it, you can discharge a (lead acid) battery to 100% DoD (using its original capacity) exactly once. At 100% it has a cycle life of 1. After that, it technically has 99.9% (or some similar number) left. You can discharge it to 95% DoD probably around 10 times or so. The EOL (end of life) is when the battery can no longer do the job it was intended to do. If you specified a battery with double the needed capacity, it will be EOL at 50%, and typically on a forklift battery that would be around 1200 cycles. If you specified a battery with only 25% capacity over what is required , for example in a forklift where it is taken to 80% DoD, it may get there in 700 cycles. That's about two years. If two years is good enough, that is what you do. (I used Trojan AGMs in my example, Forklift typically uses the flooded ones). There is however another factor involved here. While lead-acid is considered EOL when it can no longer do the job (eg start the car), LFP is considered EOL when it has irreversibly lost 20% of its original capacity. some manufacturers (Pylontech) use 40% loss as EOL. In other words, the EOL-spec for LFP is higher than for lead acid. We tend to give lead-acid a break... 🙂

[@michaelbrown2443]

By "zero" do you mean 2.0 (or 2.5V) per cell (8 or 10V for 12V battery), or some other number? Most BMS's cut off discharge at 10.5V (sometimes 10.0V) Several manufacturers claim 3-5000 cycles from 100 to 0% and back again. Their 0% is not really DEAD 0. ..

[@sarahconner9433]

Good question

[@matooleyobrien2918]

If People only Knew HOW LONG LEAD ACID BATTERIES CAN REALLY LAST ....With Proper minimal maintenance and a little effort and time...If someone is that inept they Should have to pay for Lithium... People in the know recondition flooded lead-acid batteries 2-3times and average get 8-10 years on a off the shelf Wal-Mart battery. We have lived in a throwaway society for decades.... Just like when a alternator or starter goes bad average person goes to a parts store or dealer buys a complete new one.. I can take it to one of several local shops in the small City I live a few miles from.. get it rebuilt usually same dayfor a fraction of a new one ... Whether it's a starting lead acid battery or deep cycle it really isn't that hard To just throw a multimeter on a few times a year and test the volts even if there is a lot of them for off-grid battery Bank...No Big deal I pop the the caps and check the electrolyte level three or four times a year if it needs some you simply pour it in... If a particular battery is starting to get weak I will recondition it as needed .... Reconditioning is something anyone with average cognitive ability can do if they are willing to learn..Most cost comparison videos NEVER Factor in The True Recharge Potential of Flooded Lead Acid batteries because they be Reconditioned .... Some people have even got 20 years out of properly maintained a lead acid battery.... Of course numerous reconditionings over the years by by pouring out the acid in safe container then cleaning plates and inside of battery to remove buildup on plates and buildup on bottom of battery that ruins lead acid batteries..... You can reuse the acid because the heavy particulate settles in the bottom of the container... Then go through your proper charging phases.... In essence the cost in 10-years of my off-grid solar/ flooded lead acid battery system was 75% cheaper than Lithium... I am disabled and it's not that hard the way it's set up to maintain even from a wheelchair or mobility cart. If I can do it just about anybody can.

[@cschlater]

If you charge your battery 10% 5000 times or if you charge it 90% 500 times then you’ve used almost the same amount of total power. The loss you get when discharging 90% is well worth it saving 4.500 times connecting the battery to the charger. Even if you just lose 10 sec every time you connect the charger it will amount to 12.5 hours lost.

[@AuRowe]

Math is good

[@BullCheatFR]

I believe the cycles are full capacity equivalent? So they're not really cycles, but more like a unit less Wh lifetime / Wh per full cycle

[@Prelude_Si]

It depends on the brand and BMS used. I prefer Antigravity Batteries because they come with over-discharge protection (as well as overcharge, thermal and short circuit protection) and cell balancing. PLUS built-in jump starting. My battery has been drained so many times, but no issues whatsoever after 4 years of abuse, and I have an older one in my bike too. It starts even at 5% capacity, which is unheard of for lead-acid.

[@LDSreliance]

Brand doesn't matter. All lithium batteries can operate that low. The video is about the relationship between depth of discharge and cycle life. Unless you cycled your battery more than once a day in 4 years, you can't have more than about 1,500 cycles on that battery and even at 100% DoD you would still have a good 500 cycles of life left unless you purchased a Grade B battery. So it should still have 85-90% of its original capacity left at least.

[@Prelude_Si]

@@LDSreliance, I beg to differ. Some lithium batteries don't have ANY over-discharge protection and if you let them drain below 10V, you risk permanent cell damage, so yes, brand and BMS are very important.

[@LDSreliance]

Unless you are buying a bare battery cell and doing a DIY build, all commercially available LiFePo4 batteries like your Antigravity battery have a BMS. If you can find one that does not have over discharge protection, I will stand corrected. But I've been selling them for 4 years and I have never seen one yet.

[@Prelude_Si]

@@LDSreliance, there are PLENTY of them out there. This is where I'll stop replying. Your know-it-all attitude even when you are plain wrong tells me all I need to know.

[@LDSreliance]

I could say the same thing. The fact that you can't produce a single example when you claim there are plenty out there is all I need to know. Over discharge protection is old news from 2014.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

One thing you have to factor in, is what depth of discharge will give the most kWh over the lifetime of the battery. For example: if you get twice the cycle life, at 50% depth of discharge, it's the same as getting 1/2 the cycle life at full rated capacity. IF using up only 1/2 the rated capacity gives MORE than twice the number of cycles, you are indeed lowering the levelized cost per kWh of stored energy. I have Lion Energy Safari UT 1200 batteries, and they suggest charging before they get down below ~30% state of discharge, to maximize their useful service lives. Lithium Iron Phosphate cells do not need absorption charges, and they are equalized with internal battery management systems. That makes them much better than Lead Acid, for solar applications, where it may not be possible to allow proper absorption charging, or equalization charging. I usually try to keep mine above 40~50% state of charge, or higher. I have even had some tell me, that lithium ION (3.7 volt) last better if you cut the charge short, and never fully charge them. I don't know if that applies to Lithium Iron Phosphate. I DO know, that you can charge Lithium Iron Phosphate to full capacity at 3.375 to 3.4 volts per cell, even though they can withstand up to 3.65 volts per cell.(13.5 volts, for a 4 cell 12.8 volt battery) I feel that that puts less stress on the cells, and suspect that I can greatly increase cycle life, if held to that voltage. There is a current tail to get to full capacity, much like a Lead Acid battery at that lower finishing voltage. Voltage balancing is pretty much mandatory, especially, if you're charging to the maximum allowable voltage per cell. (14.6 volts, for a 4 cell 12.8 volt battery) My batteries use 4, 90 AH prismatic cells, as opposed to cylindrical cells, like the battery that you showed. I don't know which is better, but you can't go wrong with either. I have not seen a difference in charge/discharge characteristics between them. they seem pretty much interchangeable.

[@pooheadlou]

I wouldn't want to go past 36 myself, any lower and you will shorten the life of your batteries. One more thing if you need to store them for any length time; it's best to have your batteries at about 80% , but you may what to check that out for yourself.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

@@pooheadlou that's correct for Lithium. For Lead Acid, you want to try not to dip below 50%, and during storage, they want to be fully charged. If they drop down to 80%, time for a top up charge.

[@pooheadlou]

@@vincentrobinette1507 cool I didn't know that about lead acid batteries, can't say that I've had too much to do with them.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

@@pooheadlou It might be fun, to go to a discount auto parts store and buy an inexpensive RV battery just to play with. You will be surprised, how much better a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery is, given the same rated amp hour capacity. If you can afford Lithium, it's by far the better choice. My primary interest in batteries, is for renewable energy storage. The fact that Lead Acid batteries need to be maintained in a higher state of charge, and require full top up charges, makes them more tricky for RE storage. Lead Acid, requires an absorption charge, which involves the battery drawing a very small amount of charge current for a long time. Lithium doesn't require that.

[@CanadianPrepper]

I think it's a strawman, most battery companies advise against deep discharge, many have a safety off at 10% like the inergy

[@buckhorncortez]

A strawman is an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. That's not what's being done in this video. He's merely clarifying lithium battery life vs discharge level compared with lead acid. Not a strawman.

[@etherealrose2139]

@@buckhorncortez no one is blatantly saying lithium batteries should be run down to zero. The only time that comes up is it is far less damaging long term if you've run them low a few times. Even SLA can dip to zero a few times and still last. He is intentionally misleading people for clickbait money. Every battery manufacturer says to use charge controllers for best performance no matter the chemistries. SLA doesn't need them in typical applications but they can benefit greatly with longevity by using them. However, most consumers use a couple for a vehicle's lifetime and don't worry about longevity. Total red herring for folks propping lithium over SLA if solely compared to vehicle use versus actual storage use which might be the video OP point... but no one does that or takes them seriously.

[@davidtownsend7501]

@Peter Frencken True but some devices like your cellphone will only give you a warning if a low battery. I try to never run my phone past that point. 😊

[@simonpepper9721]

25 % now

[@rupe53]

@Peter Frencken ... not sure if you made your point clear, but what I see based on your comment is the battery kicks in because the solar can't keep up in the first place so switching back to solar after the battery is low still leaves you without enough power... unless the sun comes out.

[@maxj9204]

When I was doing research for my own solar battery bank, I found that at 30% DOD the lead carbon batteries I ended up going with had a comparable or even *longer* life expectancy than some lithium batteries, at around ~4200 cycles. I was just about ready to ignore those ratings for lithium batteries because of the subject of this video... Glad I didn't. Factor in cold weather performance (which is a big factor for me, being in Canada) and cost, and lead acid is still very much relevant for a little while yet.

[@RechargeableLithium]

The problem with only using 30% of capacity is that one has to significantly oversize the battery to get the capability they desire. Cold weather isn't a factor as while lead acid must be vented, LiFePO4 does not - and LiFePO4 kept in conditioned spaces function very well.

[@RechargeableLithium]

@@charonstyxferryman All lead acid is vented - has to be because they produce hydrogen gas when overcharged - and they need to be subjected to a controlled overcharge to balance the cells. If pressures are light enough, then H2 can be recombined. If pressure is too much it's vented so the battery doesn't pop. LiFePO4 cells have vents for the same reason - but they don't produce explosive vapors when severely abused - and that's what it takes to vent a LiFePO4 cell - a direct short. - In the US, battery rooms containing flooded lead acid "must" be ventilated so hydrogen levels are kept below 1%. While VRLA doesn't vent in "normal use", they do vent when heavily stressed, and they'll also go into thermal runaway and vent more. Ventilation still needs to be coordinated with manufacturer and local requirements. it's not accurate to say that rooms containing VRLA don't "need" to be ventilated. - The OP told us he's using lead carbon. He's also ignoring that modern LiFePO4 is in the 6000 cycle range at 80% DoD. He paid almost lithium prices for a battery he can only use 30% of in order to get 70% of the cycle life...

[@jacobleeson4763]

@@RechargeableLithium You don’t know what you are talking about not only is it not all but a majority don’t in modern age. Lead acid batteries are rarely your traditional lead acid battery from the 1920s like you are thinking of. Have you not heard of sla, agm silicon, dioxide, lead carbon ect. All of these are 100 percent air tight sealed packages never to be refilled or vented or have contact with outside air. Go to a store look for lead acid batteries go online and shop for them. I doubt you will find a single battery in a store that needs to be vented. Online maybe but only if you purposely look for it. Your comment was ill informed and ignorant. Must be some old guy who hasn’t learned anything in the last 50 years. Edit: and yes as with most battery they will have a pressure relief valve even a lot of lithiums do but this is only in case of emergency and once it opens that is end of life for the battery unless you service it. It’s not meant to be used except when thermal runaway causes high pressure do to excessive overcharging. Like trying to charge a 12v battery to 18v. Not the sort of thing that would happen in everyday use. During the charging process hydrogen and oxygen recombine Into water to be reused. Assuming the battery even uses water as electrolyte not all still do. It would take operating the battery extremely out of specification for this to be an issue.

[@RechargeableLithium]

@@jacobleeson4763 Nice edit. You might want to review lead acid battery chemistry. News flash, sweetheart: lead/acid is an aqueous reaction (the 'acid' part should have tipped you off). Now, read the fire code and ventilation requirements. ALL lead acid banks need to be ventilated because ALL can release hydrogen. The problem isn't what one chooses to call the vent - the problem is that an allowance has to be made for release of an explosive gas. Ventilation requirements exist to keep one's family from burning alive in the event of a charger failure, for example. Yes, SLAs shouldn't vent as often as a flooded cell - but emergency requirements aren't developed for normal operation. It matters not whether the cell has a carbon foam plate or if the lead is doped because it's the electrolyte that we have to deal with, not the plates.

[@RechargeableLithium]

@@jacobleeson4763 Here you go - do a Google. Here are the words: Lead Acid Battery Ventilation Requirements. Read the OSHA guideline, the guidelines from the battery manufacturers, and the best practices from various industries - including marine, RV, remote power (IE cell towers), off grid, etc. Here's an example "Fire codes require continuous ventilation at a rate of not less than one cubic foot per minute per square foot area of the VRLA Battery system, or per square foot of the entire room for a vented system." Yes - all of the new lead acid battery types emit LESS hydrogen - but none of them emit NONE. Floodies emit 60 times more overall - but the rest are NOT "zero" I strongly recommend relying on experts for your battery room planning, and not people on KZbin that say whatever they want so they can profit from "controversy".

[@loadinglevelone]

Almost every battery shop claims that a 100Ah Lithium battery last twice as long as a 100Ah AGM battery. I've always found that strange. Isn't 100Ah the same as 100Ah?

[@LDSreliance]

That is misleading and the video attempts to unpack some of that. There is an adage that a lot of people use when comparing lead acid to lithium batteries that you can only count 50% of the capacity of a lead acid battery because it will destroy a lead acid battery to go lower than that. No, it won't. It will accelerate the degradation and lead to a lower cycle life. But the same thing applies to lithium, although not as much. So if you say that you can't go below 50% on a lead acid battery then you have to say the same thing or similar for lithium. It is misleading to have it both ways.

[@roncam3779]

Thank you very much. I was skeptical about the concept at first because I thought that all batteries had memory and do not perform the same way if they're brought down to zero. But eventually after hearing the lithium lie so many times I started to believe so much that I didn't want to hear about lead acid batteries. Thanks for clearing up the misconception.

[@LDSreliance]

You are welcome! I wish I could go back and edit the video a little bit and make this point clearer: you CAN discharge it to 0% SoC and it won't destroy the battery... but there IS a tradeoff in the life cycle count of the battery if you did that every time.

[@a64738]

It is not a misconception... The Information that came with my new 100Ah 12v LiFe-Po battery: Rated at 2000 charge cycles at 100% discharge, 3000 charge cycles at 80% and 5000 cycles at 50%. You choose yourself how many charge cycles you want out the battery by how low down you cycle it, 100% discharge (until bms cutoff) if you are happy with only 2000 cycles. AGM batteries I have looked at have rating 500 charge cycles life span at 50% discharge...

[@strikemaster1]

I had 2 FullRiver 100ah AGM batteries in my camper for 6 years and they cost me $425 each which I believe I got my monies worth. Problem is now, I want 2 more, but cant find them much under $700. So I am between a rock and a hard place; Do I spend $1400 on 2 new FR AGM bats that I know perform well ... or do I pay only $1000 for a 200ah Renogy Lithium? (same capacity) Kind of makes a mockery of the "lithium are too expensive" line does it not? What am I missing here? I think it should be noted that "SOME" Lithium's are way over priced but some are not. The way I see it is, this Renogy 200ah is equivalent to 4 x100AGM's simply because of the extra power you can ring out of them without hurting them. For me, I am thinking I would have to be crazy to get two more FR bats, unless of course somebody can show me my errors.

[@GilmerJohn]

When I saw that many EVs still use a lead acid battery for "housekeeping" I realized that in the real world you don't want to fully discharge Li based cell. (You don't want to do the same to the lead acid but it can tolerate it several times before it "needs new.")

[@JimProng]

I have run lead acid batteries until they are close to 0v per cell and they have recovered fully after a charge at about an eight hour rate. I believe lithium ion & lithium polymer batteries are permanently damaged if you take them below about 3v per cell. Is the same damage done if a lithium iron battery is discharged below 2.5 volts per cell?

[@solarsynapse]

You can run lead down very low and they will charge back, but it does decrease their lifespan every time you do it.

[@higbeedoug]

My latest Lenovo has a feature my others neglected: the on button has an adjacent on-light that starts to flash once 20% balance battery life is penetrated. The Lenovo prior to this provided over 7000 cycles over 4.5 years till a display failure prompted the latest purchase.

[@a64738]

Just bought four 100Ah LiFe-Po batteries and there is no lies... They say on the information that came with the battery rated at 2000 charge cycles at 100% discharge, 3000 charge cycles at 80% and 5000 cycles at 50%. You choose yourself how many charge cycles you want out the battery by how low down you cycle it, 100% if you are happy with only 2000 cycles. AGM batteries I have looked at have rating 500 charge cycles life span at 50% discharge...

[@kirillivanov9638]

That is like the number one rule, never discharge LiPos to zero

[@crazysocialmediacomments2325]

Lipos for RC cars dont have BMS inbuilt therefore i stop using then once each cell gets to around 3.85 volts

[@michaelsoutherland3023]

I've read topping them off all the time isn't good, 2.6 volts to 4.2 has worked well for 18650 flashlight batteries which are 3.7 volt cells.

[@Fromatic]

Depends how much you like fire

[@barrycampion9679]

3.2 v minimum volts, 4.2 v maximum volts 3.6v/ 3.8 v storage volts , Always leave it around half charged

[@danielmantione]

Those are good values for LiCrO2 batteries. LiFePO4 batteries have a lower voltage, I would say: 2.5V minimum 3.5V maximum 3.2V storage

[@barrycampion9679]

@@danielmantione I agree ,same concept never let them get low

[@RechargeableLithium]

@@danielmantione Be careful with using a voltage to set the storage level. Storage is 50% state of charge. This must be set by counting AH - not with voltage. Because the charge/discharge curve for LiFePO4 is so flat, it's not possible to determine SOC from voltage.

[@solarsynapse]

For LiPo. For LiIo the same except 4.10 max. See other comment for LiFePO4 (A123). There are many chemistries of Lithium batteries.

[@kirkcreelman]

This is a joke right? Who told you to discharge to zero? Cutoff is 2.5 v ..if you want more than a day out of it.

[@forevercomputing]

@Ged Woods It would be 0 percent repeated, sustained usability unless you make the batter single use - then you can keep discharging it.

[@kirkcreelman]

Ged Woods Want percent? What do you mean? If your asking how much is wasted by not using the last 2.5 volts...about 6% would be my guess. But it's not wasted it's just not used.

[@LDSreliance]

It is on almost every lithium battery manufacturer's web pages. Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD I could find a dozen more with a 10 minute Google search.

[@matsv201]

It worth saying that most Lithium batteries don´t like to be fully charged. This is not the case for lead-acid batteries. So i would say to get full cycle out of most litium battery you need to stick between 20 and 80%, while for a lead acid about 50-100% is good. This gives Lithium batteries a rather slight advantage. Still of cause for LiFePO4, they will still have 4 times the cycle number. But compare to something like a LCA battery. Then its actually pretty even

[@solarsynapse]

It's about value. Lead likes to be kept at 100% and usually lithium at 50%. If you have 4 times the cycle life and 4 times the cost, then they would be equal cost over their lifespan. Replacing batteries does take time, though.

[@matsv201]

@@solarsynapse While the best value is somewhere around 50%. The diffrance between 30 and 70% is minuscule. Its really first when you get close to 15 or 85% the life time start ramping down significantly. For something like a lead acid battery, logistics and raw material is a significant part of the cost. If the shell could be reused, and the inner part could be recycled localy, refurbishing lead batteries might be a lot cheaper in the long run. Could be like $200 in a 2 year service for a hybrid or something

[@GrrMeister]

1:30 *I always ensure my 'Caravan' 12v **_Deep Discharge_** Lead/Acid Battery is fully mains charged, and showing up to 14v on the Meter before setting off on a trip, this gives me several days of peace running Motor Mover, TV, LED Lights etc and find this quite sufficient.*

[@matooleyobrien2918]

Exactly a deep cycle flooded lead-acid battery PROPERLY maintained CAN EASILY Last 4-5 years and beyond....... It's not hard to check and fill the electrolyte three or four times a year.. people get lazy or forgetful and leave their battery laying around without occasionally charging it ... Old school folks like me know how to recondition a flooded lead acid battery and get another life cycle or 2 out of them... Talk about recycling and going green!!! flooded lead-acid batteries can usually be reconditioned several times just by emptying the electrolyte in a safe container and cleaning out the battery with epsom salt water mixture...this removes the sulfate buildup on the plates that cause it to weaken and go dead... You can pour this mixture out after soaking into a plastic container... Simply use baking soda to neutralize any of the Acid and dispose .. pour some baking soda in your car battery fill carefully with water then empty....rinse your empty battery out thoroughly with water and empty... When using a battery beaker don't go to the bottom of the container with your battery acid... Heavy particulate will be settled at the bottom... Proceed to fill use as much of the clean old acid as you can.. you may need to add a little Distilled water ONLY to bring up to correct level... NOT tap water!! Check-and follow proper procedure for recharging ... A lot of info can be scene on KZbin or googled... The battery industry don't want people doing this old school stuff they wouldn't sell a fraction of the new batteries that they do... Obviously the Lithium battery companies already know this and don't want lead acid batteries to be around....we have a choice now if the lead acid batteries go away they can charge whatever they want for the lithium... Look how much they are now. ..

[@juliogonzo2718]

@@matooleyobrien2918 well damn, I just learned something. How much acid do you lose from sediment contamination? Do you separate it in the container you moved the electrolyte to, or just not draw off the bottom of the battery?

[@donaldappelhof2059]

I usually get 5 years out of my deep cycle battery’s. And I run them almost dead but I recharge ASAP! I used to have to buy a new battery every year for a car I didn’t drive much but now I keep it charged up it will last.

[@evelynwalker1998]

@@matooleyobrien2918 I got a 12.8V 210Ah LiFePo4 SOK battery for $1000 shipped, and it has a built-in BMS. If it only lasts twice the cycles of a $400 Lead Acid batt. I am OK with the weight savings and fast re-charge. They should continue to get cheaper although at a slower rate.

[@syrus3k]

It's more complex than this.. you can discharge a lead acid battery lots but a lot of the damage is due to how long it's left discharged as you get crystals forming on the lead plates that act as an insulator.. this is chemistry.

[@bucksnort216]

I have a question. From my experience with the lithium ion batteries on power tools that I own I quite often see these fail within a year or two. I am hearing that that on the lithium ion batteries big enough to use on an RV are good for 3000 or more discharges. Here's my question. Are they the same except for the size or are they different? I know for a fact I am not getting a 1000 discharges out of my power tool batteries.

[@LDSreliance]

No, power tool batteries are a different lithium ion chemistry than these deep cycle batteries. 99% of the deep cycle ones like I showed in the video are lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP). It is a much more stable chemistry and has a longer life. It is not quite as power dense, though, so that is why power tool makers use lithium ion. They pack a bigger punch in a smaller size. The other problem is that their battery management and charging systems aren't as great as they want you to believe. I have had a Milwaukee M18 battery fail in less than 500 cycles. And they aren't cheap. I am still a big Milwaukee fan boy but they need to step up their battery game. If you are getting 500 cycles from one of those batteries (any brand) you are in good shape.

[@bucksnort216]

@@LDSreliance thanks good to know

[@LDSreliance]

Np. Thanks for watching!

[@nikolatesla5553]

My question is what is the sweet spot for discharging a lithium battery. Should we discharge the battery down to 10%, 20%, 30%. I'd like to manage the discharge. Thanks.

[@LDSreliance]

That part is up to you. Generally you can find the cycle life vs. depth of discharge chart from an honest manufacturer and then make your decision from there. It will show you how many cycles you can expect at various depths of discharge.

[@listerdave1240]

It depends what you mean drained down to zero - it depends on context. Some people take that to mean zero volts but that is generally incorrect. Draining to zero actually means draining it to the lowest permissible voltage which is somewhere between 2.6 and 3.0 Vpc for lithium-ion batteries and somewhere around 1.6 to 1.8 for lead acid. The 'battery gauge' on most devices, be they electric drills, smartphones or electric cars reflect this. If, say you're driving a Tesla and continue driving until the battery gauge goes down to 0 miles or 0% charge it means that discharging beyond that point would damage the batteries permanently. The battery management system then prevents you from doing that. Same goes for electric drills and cell phones. There is some issue with deciding the cutoff limit as it is a tradeoff between usable capacity and battery lifetime. In small consumer devices they tend to abuse that limit somewhat to squeeze out some more energy from the battery whereas in expensive items such as electric cars covered by a long warranty they tend to be more cautious to avoid costly warranty claims for batteries failing early. Lithium ion is actually much more fragile than lead acid and most cells can be destroyed instantly and permanently by discharging to below about 2 volts even just once whereas lead acid batteries can often recover even from discharge down to zero volts provided they are not left in that state for a long time (several hours to days) before recharging. There are many claims of reviving lithium ion batteries that have been over discharged and it actually does work quite often but it leaves you with a dangerous battery which can potentially short circuit and catch fire at any time. There is usually a protection device in laptop batteries and such which prevents the battery from being recharged once its voltage has dropped below some preset safe level. People of course find ways to bypass such protection systems thus 'reviving' the battery pack with potentially dangerous consequences.

[@DavidJJJ]

Agree with you there, and the fact that even the picture in the video said 80%-100% for lithium, not 100%. The main thing people say, which is correct 99% of the time (because most commercial setups have a bms) is that draining a lithium fully won’t damage a battery whereas draining a lead acid fully can almost certainly destroy it internally. Lithium’s like the one pictured have a bms so totally draining it will just trigger the bms to switch off the output/load, no lead acids I know of have this feature.

[@billysbikes8671]

this ^

[@nitroxide17]

I wanted to replace my main 12 V battery in my vehicle with a LiFePO battery. From what I tell, the temperature range is a big drawback.

[@LDSreliance]

I wouldn't do it in a vehicle. Vehicle alternators cannot handle a lithium battery out of the box. You would need a device to go in between the alternator and the battery to make it work. Check out a company called Balmar if you are serious about doing this. But you should be highly skilled at electronics and charging to do it. But yes, if you regularly experience temperatures below freezing that would also be a major problem in replacing your car battery with lithium.

[@douglasburnside]

i just finished upgrading my solar system to include battery backup. Somewhat to the surprise of my solar supplier, I specified lead-acid AGM batteries instead of Li-Ion. Yes, the Lithium batteries will last longer, but I am grid tied and under normal circumstances I will never need to use the batteries. This will double their expected life span, and when they do finally wear out, I will be able to replace them with some new technology with double the capacity and half the price.

[@ocelblack9823]

In your case if I could afford them I would opt for pocket cell Ni/Cd or Ni/Fe batteries. In standby service most have a guaranteed life of 10 years prorated at 10%/yr out to a 20 years for heavy drain short duration discharge (i.e. starting a standby generator).

[@williamkn621]

Amen

[@childofthe60s100]

HOW would you discharge to 0%. The graph extrapolation is theoretical - not real.

[@poorpauly1308]

Well, this is the first time I have heard anyone say you can discharge to zero. Click bait?

[@LDSreliance]

Wrong. It is on almost every lithium battery manufacturer's web pages. Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD I could find a dozen more with a 10 minute Google search.

[@pieterpretorius1014]

as a model airplane pilot, i can tell you one thing about these lipos, go below 3.3v per cell and the battery can be sent to the recycling center. you don't ever want to fully discharge a lipo or liFe battery pack. bad things happen

[@poorpauly1308]

@@LDSreliance OK, ignore the full spec sheet. We all know what they mean and can put that 100% into context. You are not coming across as very knowledgeable here. Better reflect on all the other posts here.

[@jab376]

@@LDSreliance You should have provided sources of your information instead of speaking in alot of generalities. For instance, you didn't list names of manufacturers or websites and links to pages that support your argument. Your very last sentence is the only thing that makes sense and people do it already.

[@thakery5720]

Nice to hear some honesty about batteies - I have had two Lipo batteies, one failed due to it not being very well packed when shiped via Royal mail and the other is still in service despite my having to superglue the top back on - it was on my Harley and that thing vibrates ! I changed the (sealed lead/acid) battery on my car as it just wasn't holding a charge reliably.... well it was ten years old and the car doesn't get used much so the alarm immobiliser keeps it fairly discharged - about 12.2 volts most of the time. Despite the low voltage it still starts the car OK though and I think it is due to the capacity of the thing - the car is a turbo petrol 1.8 litre engine that is fairly low compression as it is a turbo. I just tried a battery condition tester on the (now 6 year-old) new battery and it showed 12.06 volts, state of health as 80%, state of charge as 0%... yes 0% and it starts the car ok even though the CCA available is less than half (250cca) the amount on the battery's case of 540 cca. Its a similar thing on my two Harleys, one has a 12 ah 200 cca battery the other a 20ah 340cca for similar bikes just from different years - one has a reduced space for a battery compared to the other. The larger capacity battery may 'sulphate up' more than the smaller one but I just use a 'de-sulphation' charger periodically and it seems to work - I will de-sulphate the car battery soon and see how the 'state of health' changes.....

[@InsanitiesBrother]

I think you've predecated this on a lie tbh. Generally people (who know anything about batteries) are of the opinion that you are meant to keep them between 75% and 25%

[@arthuroconnor4300]

Tesla recommends keeping the charge between 20 and 80% state of charge on their vehicle for longevity

[@fathergratwick]

Ive always read that lifepo4 can be discharged to 20% safely vs 50% for lead acid but then I generally dont look at resellers marketing hype for data on anything.. From personal experience of replacing 6 225ah 6v FLAs with one small DIY lifepo. The capacity and ability of the lifepo to run large loads such as a coffeemaker without the puekart effect is fantastic... the 300lb weight saving and space savings is also a plus as well as maintenance differences.

[@LDSreliance]

For sure. There are numerous advantages and only a handful of disadvantages. So by all means, upgrade to lithium! But, like you said, don't believe everything that the marketing is telling you and what random keyboard warriors on the internet are telling you. Do some research and keep an open mind.

[@Hundert1]

Excellent points you make. So many con artists and manipulative devils out there. Thanks for your interest, research and honest reporting. Keep it up 👍☘

[@LDSreliance]

You are welcome! I am glad you got the point of the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@Hundert1]

@@LDSreliance My pleasure 👋🏼

[@howlinhog]

Even a cheap lithium powered hand tool has a bms that protects the battery from being overly discharged. Easily seen by the sudden shut down of the tool with a low battery charge level. People who repeat the lie of 100% discharge have not taken the time to educate themselves. Those who are unwilling to educate themselves, and this applies to all aspects of life, will always be with us. This video is not for those people. Thanks for the video serving those curious enough and willing to adjust or confirm their own understanding.

[@johncasey5594]

I think the real lie is you should choose Lithium because you'll be able to use them for 20 years vs. non-lithium, so it is a worth while investment to pay up to 10x more for the same storage capacity. Ummm... no. You don't think in the next 5, 10, 15 years, they are not going to come up with some new battery technology that is going to make Lithium obsolete and you are going to want to switch. Ok yea, for portable I get it, but if your install is permanent, I'd just go sealed/golf cart batteries.

[@jakegarrett8109]

Joe Biden's Chain to be fair, most laptop batteries are toast after like 5-7 years (down to a few minutes instead of hours, basically unusable), in higher power applications (like model airplanes), where the battery is used hard and any power stoppage just means it’s pushed even closer to 100% max power, they really begin to become not-useable fast! I’ve only seen 3 lithium battery cells last 20 years (only had 5% capacity, but dang that’s still impressive!). Even my laptop that’s been used like maybe 2 dozen times (stored at 70% charge level), and only a year old is about 15% capacity degraded. Li-ion flat out doesn’t last long, LiPo lasts even drastically less, so I’m hoping the LiFePo4 batteries (which are like a freaken lead brick) will last the 6+ years they claim useable. However, that’s still pretty short lifetime compared to gravity or physics storage (like hydro-pump storage like dams, rotational energy storage, or even hydrogen fuel storage in underground caves), but it’s at least portable enough to toss on an electric bicycle or carry in a laptop, so we are stuck with it for now. Also, I reuse phone batteries for other electronics projects, around 5 years is about the max useful (about 3 years for Apple as they seem to purposely make fast degrading batteries so they can claim they can’t be changed and then try to sell another $1000 phone, but my Frankenstein phone with wires sticking out and a battery hot glued to the back sure seems to prove you can for any phone!)

[@jakegarrett8109]

@Joe Biden's Chain The run time on the laptop is pretty low though... Plus its not like it has a hot keyboard or anything (the Intel CPU does use 80w at boost, haha, 45w TDP my @$$ !!!), but I only use it on battery power for taking to McDonnalds to update, so its not like its doing much. Also if it got hot, I would think the NVME SSD would throttle, but its still writing at about 3000 MB/s (or 24 Gbps), and since the CPU isn't doing much, the airflow should be pretty terrible for that drive. I typically use desktops or my test bench systems for gaming (when I've got a stack of the fastest parts in the world, might as well use them over a laptop if I'm at my desk...). That's probably a rare case to get that good of batteries that lasted that long. I know even the low performance business laptops (which were duel cores, so not exactly pumping out the heat or power draw...) are completely dead after a few years, it varies a lot. My 2012 HP laptop still has like 80% capacity, while my dad's 2012 Dell has about 1% (its about 5 seconds to run between one wall outlet to the next... don't walk or you won't make it!). So I'm thinking my gaming laptop will be about like that dell in a few years, because lithium degrades exponentially (if you have 10% degradation the first year, it might be 30% the next). Also how cold are we talking? I've got access to liquid nitrogen, I just keep a dewar in the living room, should I drop a new Samsung cell in it just for LOLs to see how it holds up in 5 years? I feel like its going to do something bad, like shatter or something, haha, but I'm kind of tempted now!

[@royblackburn1163]

Agreed, the only thing that is permanent is change, don't worry about washing powder the new improved version will be out next week. Lol

[@j.t.6700]

So DOD to 20% would be better for the life cycle of the Liof battery 🔋 correct? I want to get 4 LiFo should I make them parallel or in series for fridge and a/c

[@LDSreliance]

I think you mean State of Charge to 20% but yes, if you don't drain it to 0% every time it will last longer. You get the same net amount of energy out of the battery either way. But if you plan around your usage you can get a more appropriately sized battery.

[@cr0ft-2k]

I've honestly never heard anyone claim you can drain them 100%. 80%, sure. And any halfway decent BMS will prevent discharge beyond that.

[@RonJohn63]

Always be suspicious when someone says "The Great _X_ Lie".

[@AskRemy]

you can drain lithium iron phosphate batteries 100% and they will keep on working, I own 3 in my RV. Over time it does damage them a bit faster, but nothing like lead acid batteries.

[@strikemaster1]

Nice compact video showing what counts, and I did not have to sit through a boring 20-30 min video for the same results... Thanks. Well done.

[@LDSreliance]

Thanks! I apppreciate that. I had to learn the hard way lol

[@Roodj1]

NiCa batteries for me lol. But for Li I don’t remember ever not knowing about never fully charging and discharging. But in modern batteries, at least main stream ones the BMU or BMC controls charge levels, over and under volt, and max draw. But as a pilot my plane uses NiCa batteries because of the steady state of current they produce until they die. Very important when dealing with sensitive navigation equipment that runs on DC power instead of the newer AC stuff.

[@supercoolguygamer9239]

NiCe

[@Dave5843-d9m]

Lead acid can be discharged well below 50% but the internal resistance shoots up so the current available is drastically reduced. If you force it to deliver high current the voltage drops into the danger zone. Before you know it the battery won’t recover. LiFePo has built in protection to prevent over discharge but leave it flat & sitting and soon enough you’ll have a dead brick.

[@LDSreliance]

I agree with everything you said until that last part. What do you mean that you'll have a dead brick if you leave a lithium battery sitting?

[@charlieodom9107]

Great info. I hear this all the time, and it makes me sick. I have to correct people all the time. I prefer Lithium to Lead Acid also, but it is cost prohibitive for most people, so a lower DoD Lead Acid setup is normally used in Lieu of Lithium in my experiences.

[@GilmerJohn]

Folks can get good sized 48 volt batteries (lead) from Sam's Club A lot of old folks live in places where they can get around town in golf carts and EVs are less trouble overall that ICE carts.

[@Gilespargiter]

Unfortunately another myth that seems to be frequently reinforced on the internet is that toxic expensive short lived LiFe batteries made of scarce materials are "the way to go". Non-toxic long lasting (80yrs recorded) NiFe batteries (the original Edison battery), specifically designed for vehicles, undamaged by any state of charge, rejuvanatable and made from more plenty-full materials are once again available. Having now circumvented their copyright suppression. These are ideal for solar systems.

[@charleshueckstaedt5064]

@ Giles Pargiter .. very interesting post ! how might i learn more ? can you share a web site or ? thanks ...........

[@Gilespargiter]

@@charleshueckstaedt5064 I find it very interesting that people in the US (if you are) interested in batteries do not seem to widely know about Edison batteries. Not sure if you tube will let me post a url, I will try. otherwise google "Bimble solar" You just might need to use a VPN. Here goes - www.bimblesolar.com/batteries/nifebatteries?page=1

[@stephenhammond1656]

I've never heard anyone say that. Was this a clock with by any chance?

[@megastick9324]

I’ve been running lithium batteries for a few years now in different applications, including motorcycles. The instructions clearly state to never allow them to be drained below app 10.5v and always monitor the charge system to be sure charge is limited to below 15v. I’ve never Heard these claims in the video, so I’m not sure what he’s talking about. Is it from salesman or manufacturers? The quality of matching cells is the biggest concern , to my knowledge. Which is what buying cheap batteries is dangerous. They don’t spend the time/money to actually match cells. They just throw them together and the result is a sub par product that can, and does cause many issues, including bursting into flames.

[@sonofneptunesailing917]

Thanks for the Video! I have been researching batteries for the last 2 years. I agree with everything in your video!! I recently re did my boat's electrical with TPPL AGM batteries. I would have preferred to go with lithium, but the initial cost is too high. I am happy to see someone promoting cheater lithium options. I am sure the "Battel Born" lithium batteries are good but 1000 per 100Ah was too much .

[@bluejeans725]

Do you remember when computers were wildly expensive, when solar panels were really high too, that's where we are atm with LifePo4 drop-ins. The present price includes the replacement you haven't received yet, it's a profit numbers game atm, nothing to do with cost of production. Drop-ins are the last type of battery you want btw, look at 3.2v individual block cells of 200Ahr each, that is the tech that is worth the money.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

Keep in mind, that drop-in replacement batteries are by far and away the best choice for cabin power. Because drop-in replacements have built in battery management systems, their output is electronically current limited, by the ratings of large switching transistors. Drop-ins will NOT start an engine. You still need a lead acid starting battery for the engine, these lithium batteries are a replacement for your DEEP CYCLE batteries. The cells within a lithium battery are more than capable of starting an engine, but you have to bypass the high/low voltage protection transistors. There is no need to adjust your alternator voltage, because Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can be charged to capacity at 13.5 volts. They will withstand up to 14.6 volts. If your alternator puts out 13.8~14.4 volts, you're right in the window.

[@AskRemy]

you can get them at $850 if you ask and they will outlast your AGM - better performance, 2x the power, less weight (30 lbs) - lithium iron phosphate is the way to go - you have a boat but can't afford battle born?

[@isdits]

@@AskRemy not all boats are expensive. most of these battery set ups cost more than my truck and rig combined. I fully understand his point. $5k-8K is a lot of money for batteries.

[@charliecharlie9787]

Crazy 😢 to much .

[@bridgerectifier7711]

I've even heard this lie peddled by professional installers. The only type of battery I have that can be shorted to 0 volts, are a set of liquid Nickel Cadmium 100Ah cells. While in storage I keep them in a shorted condition until I need them, after which they can be cycled normally. NiCd batteries have many other flaws, so I'm not advocating their use over LiFePO4. An important enough point to make a vid about and thank you for making it. Cheers!!!

[@solarsynapse]

Liquid? Do you have an example?

[@Andysfishing]

Very informative. I’ll be changing over to lithium on some batteries soon.

[@davidtownsend7501]

Rechargable Lithium batteries are great and big money savers . But disposable lithium batteries are a wast of money

[@UnLikeU]

Andy... MAKE THE SWITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!

[@UnLikeU]

@@chuckchambers9565 Sorry to hear that. I know nothing about Battle Born. I do know I run 5 Lithium 110AH with a 36Volt Ulterra and I've used my trolling motor ONLY for over 24 hours without starting my engine over 1hour & a half and that Moe Foe still had over 85-90% which is insane. No comparing Lithium to lead acid. Lead acid are 9volt batteries compared to what's in Tony Starks chest. Also after shedding 6 AGM batteries I went from 39-40mph in my 21 foot Ski/Fish to 42-43 top end. I'm running 6 Tower Speakers, 3 Amps, 2 8 inch subs, LED lights, 3 Sonar Graphs, Livescope & basic accessories and I was on the water from Saturday at 9pm - Monday about 8 pmish. 🤣😂🤣 I'm never going back to AGM or Led. I'd just buy more Lithium. 😁😁 Sorry for your experience.

[@Dave5843-d9m]

@@UnLikeU AGM is lead acid. They just use an H2SO4 gel and glass matting between the charge plates rather than open plates flooded in H2SO4 acid.

[@UnLikeU]

@@jernone3849 Common Sense to someone who is not thinking Broader. Mr. or Ms. Jer None. I went to Lake Arlington Saturday night 5-29-21 left that lake after running music & bright lights/sonars at 2am Sunday morning, drove 2 1/2 hours to Lake Fork and was on the water at 5am where I stayed until Monday 2:50pm. That's 3 days on the water with no charge running Led Lights 3 amps 2 subs/6 tower speakers 6 internal speaker, 2 sonars, Livescope/& underwater lights, a Minn Kota Ulterra as my trolling motor which is my anchor that doesn't stop and I may have had my engine running less than 4 hours doing all this with the engine off. Sir or Maam you would need about 10 Lead Acid Batteries to do that at 40lbs - 50lbs a piece adding 400lbs to your weight burning more gas, getting less top end, & have to change those Moe Foes Out.. Keep buying lead. You're right.. I'm an idiot. LMAOOOOOOO... My 5 Lithium batteries weigh about 20lbs each and I dumped 6 AGM 50lbs - $55lbs+ batteries shedding 230+lbs improving top end.

[@ramonduterte7370]

Lot of comments saying they've never heard this lie, but I would say I've definitely heard *variations* of it. The most common one is something like, "Well, that setup is with lead acid, so yeah, it *looks* like 300ah, but really it's 150ah since you can't discharge below 50%. If you want *true* 300ah storage, you'd need lithium." I think the video is helpful because while some people here recognize you don't want to brazenly discharge lithium batteries down to 0, they might also perpetuate the idea that lithium batteries have "more storage" because of a general understanding of DoD.

[@LDSreliance]

Correct. That was the purpose of the video. I think a few people missed the point but hopefully it helps a few other people think for themselves and not just take a marketing line or a commonly told half truth as fact.

[@stefanlavriv8119]

Here it should be added temperature /capacity relationship of lithium batteries compared to Lead-acid batteries

[@BullCheatFR]

Here in Alaska lead acid batteries don't quite work out because they freeze and split open unless they are constantly being baby sitted. Talk about a loss of capacity haha! Good point still.

[@aaronhendrickson]

The ones I listen to say don't go below 10% charge. Most I have seen say lithium battery will charge faster and contain a higher charge level.

[@John-gm8ty]

umm where? I've never heard or seen anywhere that says you can discharge to 0%, you CAN discharge to the point the battery protection cuts off the cell though, but that's a very different matter, and you'd never use a cell without such battery and balance protection anyway..

[@LDSreliance]

Seriously? It is on almost every lithium battery manufacturer's web pages. Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD I could find a dozen more with a 10 minute Google search.

[@milanswoboda5457]

@@LDSreliance the spec sheet for the 1.4 indicates rated cycles @ 80% DOD and only indicates that you can go to a 100% DOD with a disclaimer regarding max operation conditions and warranty. If you then look at the installation manual you will find that the 80% and 100% DOD are based on different low and high cut-off voltages plus the corresponding expected cyclic life for each DOD. As for the battleborn batteries, they only indicate that you CAN do 100% DOD but parameters for 100% DOD specs are missing and also their 3000-5000 cycle life is missing information on what parameters these values are based on therefore the internet available information for these batteries is insufficient.

[@LDSreliance]

But your original post said "I've never heard or seen anywhere that says you can discharge to 0%". I just showed you several.

[@milanswoboda5457]

@@LDSreliance not my OP ;)

[@John-gm8ty]

@@LDSreliance actually, all of the cells you linked use built in BMS units and do not drain the cells 100%, they only drain to the minimum safe voltage of the cell, which is technically 100% through the BMS which pretty much all cells come with short of unprotected 18650's it's just that most people don't' read the technical specs nor the full data PDF's and make assumptions ;) so you're both wrong and right for different reasons.

[@billruss6704]

Have to agree. I rarely let my 2015 electric Fiat get below 70% and the estimated range has remained constant at about 110 miles.

[@MrKrueger88]

Good on you , it'll last ages 👍

[@AlaskaErik]

I'm sticking with my potato batteries. Discharge them down to zero and then turn them into French fries.

[@taimank]

or lemonade juice batteries...

[@mankind9869]

😂

[@ericbraun4652]

Hey... I agree when you said I was wrong but had deleted my post before I saw your response (which appeared in the drop-down thingy). You made a very factual reasoned presentation.

[@LDSreliance]

Thanks, Eric. I appreciate that. Takes a big man to admit when he is wrong.

[@marcusaetius9309]

This is an advertisement for the guy’s business using click bait.

[@LDSreliance]

Except that I didn't put any links to anything and the video does not favor lithium. So how is that promoting the brand?

[@masonhales]

@@LDSreliance uh there's like 5 links, are you just lying through your teeth or what?

[@connorjones915]

@@masonhales Did you bother looking at the links, none of them are self promoting. Except if you want to call patreon donations that but still irrelevant given the context.

[@LDSreliance]

@Mason Clearly you did not look at any of those links.

[@masonhales]

@@LDSreliance yeah because you changed them lol

[@PeteZam]

cant say ive ever heard someone suggest that its good to take your LFPs down to zero. but if you are watching someone that is telling you its cool to take your battery to 0% and they are not using a BMS, i suggest you immediately stop watching anything that person has to say

[@magua73]

I'm a totally amateur when it comes to solar and batteries, and one of the first things a learned was the DOD of lithium iron phosphate was about 80% and never heard anything remotely to 100%.

[@frodev728]

you can actually discharge to 100% DOD, HOWEVER that does not mean discharging to 0.0v I’ve discharged my lithium batteries to over 100% of their rated capacity and still had more than 2.75v per cell. This video is nonsense for the reasons you mention and more.

[@LDSreliance]

It is on almost every lithium battery manufacturer's web pages. Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD I could find a dozen more with a 10 minute Google search.

[@strikemaster1]

I am not really into all the technical stuff of 12 volt, but I did a test of simple logic after charging my two AUX Caravan/Trailer batteries for 24 hours on a smart 3 stage charger. One test with Kill switch off (12" from battery)... and another with kill switch on which to my knowledge the only power drain would be the tiny LED light indicating volts. No car connected and no solar as its in a shed. Kill On... went from 13.3 volts down to 12.5 volts in 6 days Kill off... went from 13.3 volts down to 12.9 volts in 6 days and after 14 days still 12.8 My logic is the battery is leaking a huge amount either via the battery itself or some hidden load. So I check all fuses eg: Fridge, water heater, deisel heater, lights 1, Lights 2, Fan, Radio and some others, and all showed no leaks except one. This fuse lable which confuses me is "VAN BAT" Which is my caravan battery I suppose. I then recharged over 24 hours and buy this load tester, and both batteries went a little into the yellow after 10 seconds. What do you think... battery still good?

[@kamikazekunze]

I always heard you should keep LiFePo batteries between 20% and 80% at all times.

[@jamest.5001]

Absolutely, if you want to keep them for a long while!

[@AskRemy]

depends where you buy them - not all are created equal - mine are charged at 100% - whether 100% or 70% - in time they will degrade anyway

[@RechargeableLithium]

Running between 20 and 80 will give a very long cycle life as only 60% of capacity is being used. Manufacturer's cycle numbers usually use 80% of capacity per cycle.

[@22ndaccountduetocensorship57]

No.

[@jamest.5001]

If you want more than the 2000-3000 cycles, otherwise, full charge, to about 2v per cell, if your equipment can go that low, but lithium cells degrage at high temperatures, high and low voltages!

[@angusboychannel4995]

Yep. I've owned several lithium car batteries. They hit waaaayyyy harder than lead acid. You must keep them charged and they will last many times longer than lead acid. If you need a deep cycle for say listening to a stereo on a boat all afternoon, forget lithium. But you can keep a fully charged 1000 cca 8 pound lithium battery in the boat or car as a back up. They only discharge 10% in a year. I have one running my 700 hp rotary rx7 with a 250 amp alternator and it kicks ass. I disconnect it with quick connects so no parasitic loss is realized. There is substantial draw from my sick stereo. In most daily drivers lithium would rule Imo.

[@daleval2182]

If you disconnect your battery, you effect your cars PC, or custom tune, maybe think that out.

[@Buzzhumma]

But I just listened to you as my research and now I know what you want me to know . 😖

[@LDSreliance]

All I wanted you to know is to compare the life cycle charts of both types of batteries when making a purchase or comparison. I don't have an agenda to push here.

[@sputnut]

On the flip side, though... Phones surely do not allow a complete dead charge on their battery but many say it is ok to charge them before the phone dies or is at least below 5% because they supposedly don't have a memory. This is another lithium lie. My friend gave me his old phone which he plugged in every night regardless of charge remaining, and his phone only lasted a little over a day. I let it die before charging for a month and it would hold charge for 2 1/2 to 3 days... Proof enough for me it is bad to charge every night. They certainly do have memory.

[@TuiCatNZ]

I thought the important thing was that lfp's could be discharged to zero WITHOUT CATCHING FIRE ?

[@johncoops6897]

All lithium cells can be discharged to zero without catching fire. The issue is that after you do that, you damage the cell internally and when you recharge it, there is a possibility that it will overheat. After an over-discharge, LiFePO4 is less likely to combust, than LiPo... however LiFePO4 is almost certainly killed and will no longer accept any charge.

[@TuiCatNZ]

@@johncoops6897 good to know.

[@paulreeder5241]

Ryan Borger says "I've been building battery packs with lithium for almost a decade, and never heard anyone say draining to zero is ok.." And he is absolutely right. First of all, that makes this video very misleading. It is written just about everywhere that you cannot discharge a LiPo battery below its threshold. It destroys the battery. Li Ion and lead acid batteries can be recharged at any point. Of course, with lead acid batteries, draining to 0 v is not a very good idea either. It, too, can ruin the battery.

[@LDSreliance]

No, the video is not misleading. Please do a simple Google search before you definitively declare that no one has ever said something: Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD *Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD Relion Battery (relionbattery.com/blog/tech-tuesday-depth-of-discharge#:~:text=LiFePO4%20batteries%20can%20be%20continually,is%20no%20long%2Dterm%20effect.&text=Lithium%20batteries%20provide%20100%25%20of,with%20higher%20rates%20of%20discharge.) - "LiFePO4 batteries can be continually discharged to 100% DOD and there is no long-term effect." ChargeX Lithium Ion Batteries (www.lithiumion-batteries.com/12v100ahlithiumbattery.php) - "Use 100% of rated capacity" Relion Battery (relionbattery.com/blog/tech-tuesday-depth-of-discharge#:~:text=Most%20lead%20acid%20batteries%20experience,are%20discharged%20below%2050%25%20DOD.&text=Lithium%20batteries%20provide%20100%25%20of,with%20higher%20rates%20of%20discharge.) - "Most lead acid batteries experience significantly reduced cycle life if they are discharged below 50% DOD. ... Lithium batteries provide 100% of their rated capacity, regardless of the rate of discharge, while lead-acid batteries typically provide less usable energy with higher rates of discharge." Solar Builder Magazine (solarbuildermag.com/featured/how-to-replace-lead-acid-batteries-with-lithium-batteries/) - "Most FLA battery manufacturers recommend not exceeding 50% DoD for maximum cycle life of their batteries... The top performing LFP batteries provide 80 to 100 percent DoD." I could find twice that many with another 10 minute Google search. BattleBorn has since taken down the link above but you can still find the original PDF here: www.invertersupply.com/media/data/1547_BattleBorn-LINE.pdf

[@dragan3290]

Better off with deep cycle lead acid battery?

[@LDSreliance]

Not necessarily. You have to know what you are looking at and be able to compare and contrast. They are different. The purpose of the video is just to encourage people to look at the cycle life ratings when comparing instead of blindly following what others say.

[@dragan3290]

Depends on your budget. I lent an 18 volts dewalt cordless tool battery to a neighbor. He drained it to the point I had to jumpstart the battery to get a few volts in the battery. Then the charger recognized and started charge. In reality you can't drain them dead.

[@lyfandeth]

Funny thing, every vendor I've worked with says discharging a cell below 2v for any length of time will wreak havoc, and letting them sit at zero (i.e. from a BMS running while in storage) will outright kill them.

[@LDSreliance]

I did not talk about voltage a single time in the video. I talked exclusively about SoC and DoD.

[@peterscott2662]

Hardly a great lie, since I NEVER heard that, and knew that DoD affected Lithium battery life.

[@LDSreliance]

Wrong. It is on almost every lithium battery manufacturer's web pages. Simpliphi (simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-4-battery/) - the 1.4 is measured at 100% DoD Battle Born (battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf) - "Can be discharged 100% vs lead acid recommended 50% depth of discharge" Lion Energy (lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut?MaxConnect&PaidSearch&MaxConnect_ProductSpecific#specs) - Cycle life rated at 100% DoD Lithium Werks (lithiumwerks.com/battery-systems/) - 100% DoD I could find a dozen more with a 10 minute Google search.

[@matooleyobrien2918]

Just from watching Hundreds and Hundreds of Camping, Van lifers, nomads, off-grid homesteader's on KZbin camping videos ALMOST EVERYONE thinks you can drain lithium to zero LOL..... Your average person drains their phones and tablets to zero on a regular basis.

[@tomstdenis]

@@matooleyobrien2918 When cells were largely new people still had NiCad like tips and tricks "you have to fully discharge it or it will get a memory, etc..." or "you can't leave on charge all the time or it will over charge" Any half decent modern phone should stop charging the battery once it hits the CV/CC shutoff. Good ones won't fully charge to max voltage anyways to avoid stressing the cell.

[@wingerrrrrrrrr]

So in the specifications, it says Depth of Discharge1 up to 100%. Hard to say that's wrong, since by definition, anything can be discharged to 100%. The little "1" says it may impact warranty, so they're covered for the claim if it degrades the battery.

[@BWeManX]

Fascinating. I had read pretty much exclusively (from said companies), that lithium ion had 100% DOD with no ill effects. Nice to know that's a misleading marketing ploy.

[@LDSreliance]

It depends on what you mean by ill effects. It doesn't cause a memory effect or physically damage the cells. But it does shorten the useful life of the battery in the sense that it uses it up more more quickly since it is not a linear relationship between DoD and Cycle Life.

[@BWeManX]

@@LDSreliance yeah I think that's why it's not "technically" false advertising. I'd say not mentioning that 100% DoD would still shorten the effective lifespan of the battery counts as "ill effects", even if it doesn't "break" the battery. That said, it still does have considerably less pronounced effects than a comparable lead acid battery being drained to that DoD.

[@LDSreliance]

The issue I have lies in the details. They claim that you can discharge the battery 100% and use that in their marketing. But then in the specs, they use different numbers to make themselves look better. For example, one brand that I discuss in my videos (such as this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHPLYqBqfbehibs) that I will refer to as Brand X compares their batteries to lead acid and uses 100% of the capacity or discharges to 0% SoC/100% DoD. But then on their spec sheet they list the cycle life of the battery at 70% DoD/30% SoC. That is not honest. The customers, 99% of whom do not know any better, then assume the battery will last 3,000+ cycles AND be able to discharge all the way to 0 every time. That is not the case at all.

[@ometofu]

Tell that to Tesla

[@eljcapo]

His panels are on 🔥 lol....

[@Beavis-et8ox]

What do you say concerning the idea of having Lithium Batteries at 100% fully charged for a longer time is also not good and they loose a little bitt capacity every time they are charged to 100% ? Is that correct?

[@Ibian666]

Lead batteries work, they are comparative cheap, and unless you are planning for a system that will be used heavily for at least ten years I don't see many scenarios where lithium batteries are worth it.

[@junkerzn7312]

This is a good point, but I would also add that you have to keep in mind that the failure mode for a lead-acid battery is basically complete failure, which for many applications is not desirable. The failure mode for a LiFePO4 system is just some loss in capacity. A steady loss of capacity as the cells age, and not a complete failure. I can tell you that I hit this very issue in several UPS systems that I own. Over all the power failures that have occurred over the years, the lead-acid gel-cell based systems actually failed 1/3 of the time... that is, they took over and ran for only a few minutes before giving up the ghost instead of the ~1hr they were supposed to be able to run. And didn't warn me before-hand that the cells had failed either, even the self-tests didn't detect the failures. I have since switched to (more expensive) LiFePO4 based UPSs and its like night and day. I can completely count on a solid run-time on UPS in a power failure. I've only had these new UPS's for a year though so at least for this application I cannot be definitive about the advantages yet. -Matt

[@ds525252]

Thank you for this info. I am not a PRO and did not know this and I have a Kodiak so your FREE videos are ALWAYS APPRECIATED. Anyone upset deserves a full refund for the cost of the video.

[@LDSreliance]

Haha good point. I should put that in my outro: "If you didn't like this video I will fully refund your monetary investment."

[@ds525252]

LDSreliance 🤝✔️

[@johnmadsen37]

You can discharge to zero but will severely affect cycles. 50-60% is standard for lipo. Amg types are still 80% - for high end. Cheap people will always get one instead of two and it will always cost more, over double in the long to even short term.

[@davidpaulsen1510]

NASA has all the battery charts think satellites ya can't change the battery.for lithium iron 80%-20% .I have a 14s7p that I pull at 1200 watts(commuter bike full throttle) with over 1800 cycles thanks NASA!

[@jms019]

NASA's batteries are somewhat expensive

[@davidpaulsen1510]

@@jms019 😁👍 Mine was built out of 98 Panasonic 18650s ....The charts are for all types of batteries and chemistries including how charging and discharging rates temp pressure etc impact performance.... I would love a nuclear cell no mess no fuss no recharging makes heat too pioneer's is still working and it was launched in the 70s!

[@LDSreliance]

If you have an unlimited budget and can build in triple or quadruple redundancy, go for it!

[@davidpaulsen1510]

@@LDSreliance my point exactly 👍 battery capacities are way over stated. I'll take NASA's data over the manufacturers any day. Double the battery storage of what you think you'll need. It doesn't matter if it's lead acid, gel ,or lithium I've destroyed them all by building budget systems especially with cheap chargers/ converters or without automatic low voltage cut outs . Having at or near capacity battery banks is the root cause of taking batteries out of spec leading to shortened life/ cycles or complete failure. I'll take twice the capacity four times the life any day.It's cheaper and more reliable in the long run.

[@frisbee544]

Whatever the fuck you said.

[@Coltn3125]

The other Lie is charging it to 100% is also good. But in reality 80% charge and down to 20% discharge limits actually greatly extend the batteries life.

[@AndreasEUR]

Down to 20 removes cycles... Keep it as close to 100 as often as possible. Down to 80 SoC and back up = 1 cycle. Past 50% dod = lose a lot of cycle life... Imo treat it like lead acid and it will last a loooooooong time

[@junkerzn7312]

@@AndreasEUR You have to be a little careful. For LiFePO4, If the battery is not being used at all then charging it up to 100% and then putting it on a shelf is just fine. There is no real need to charge it to only 50%. The self discharge takes it below 100% on its own and it will stay in better shape for longer on a shelf. In a situation where a charge controller is always active... for example, a backup system where mains are keeping the battery bank topped off most of the time, then holding the batteries at 100% will cause excess wear verses holding them at 80%, or 70%, or 50%. There will be a noticeable difference between 100% and 80%. But there probably won't be much of a noticeable difference between, say, 80% and 50%. The main thing for LiFePO4 in a backup or mains-available situation is that you need to use a proper charge controller, one that charges to bulk (3.4V to 3.65V) and then floats at a lower supporting voltage (3.35V to 3.375V per cell). Regardless of how much you charge the battery up during the bulk phase... that is, regardless of the state of charge of the battery, it is extremely important for the Float to be below the potential barrier of the chemistry to maximize life. It goes without saying, that the Float setting is far more important than how far you charge the battery up from a SOC point of view. -Matt

[@dbfcrell8300]

I wrote to John Goodenough and he wrote back. Asked him about glass batteries. He gave me a rundown where they stood. Nice gentleman

[@thecsslife]

How do you have contact with this great scientist?

[@dbfcrell8300]

@@thecsslife He's at the University of Texas. I looked up his email address. Write to him. He'll probably write back. He's at; [e-mail] Don't tell anyone.

[@Kirbythediver]

I've never heard this, apple might say that so you'll buy their new phones lol

[@VolkerHett]

Not even Apple does it :D

[@ThePaulv12]

So for a remote off grid 48v install, would it not be more cost effective to go nickel-iron? The self discharge of Edison batteries is a non issue with solar and a 2 wire auto start generator. I'm talking cost over say 40 years for the Edisons vs say 2.5 lithium battery banks over the same period. The higher initial cost of the Edisons pails by compariso if you factor annual battery cpst. In the end I'm actually not sure what to do but you can see the direction I'm leaning (today st least lol)

[@rickschuman2926]

Now that you have cleared that up, how about a video on the toxicity of lithium and the enviroment, especially when all those batteries are gathered together in waste disposal and allowed to leach into our underground water systems.

[@SamsaraRevolves]

This is why we need closed loop lithium battery recycling in the US, like what they're building at ABTC.

[@RyanBorger]

Lithium is one of the most plentiful substances on our planet.....

[@junkerzn7312]

... you mean, mandated recycling kinda like we have for lead-acid? A very good idea. Europe is already adopting such standards. The U.S. should do the same. -Matt

[@na88egt]

After using AGM for nine years and then switching to Lithium it’s hard to imagine ever going back. The advantages are numerous and now the price is also better for similar useable capacity.

[@LDSreliance]

Yeah it happened fast. When I first got into solar and off grid energy storage, lithium was an expensive toy.... something to use if you could custom program a charge controller. Now there is full support and the prices are dropping fast. So fast that it is now very challenging to distinguish between a half-decent Grade B lithium battery and pure trash.

[@PatrickFCBronsema]

A year ago I have 2 Liitokala 26650 batteries of both 5000mah. Actually, after first charging, the capacity was 5478mah and 5483mah. Now after loading 250 times from scratch, the capacity is 6052mah and 6106mah. So I don't know where your wisdom comes from, but it doesn't make any sense at all.

[@TheTripleDubya]

The story I heard was that lead acid batteries had a voltage drop issue below 50% charge and that Lithium did not, or at least did not for longer and this was what made lithium superior when running say a camping fridge, that would shut itself of at low voltage.

[@LDSreliance]

Voltage drop corresponds with Amps. But yes, I know what you are describing. I have heard it called "sag". As the battery discharges lower then it will have a lower voltage. Both batteries do it but lead acid does it much worse.

[@sethje]

inventing a lie to debunk it is a bit cheap. But i guess you have had your hits.

[@Foxxie55]

I've been using 80v Lithium batteries over 5 years now with a chainsaw and other tools. One thing that is great about the lithium is, that they stay strong until they stop vs. the lead acid will drag down to slow and slower etc.. Nothing is perfect..

[@LDSreliance]

That is true!

[@johnmccabe4436]

HOW ABOUT RECYCLING NO BODY TAKES THEM!

[@LDSreliance]

And shipping them is a major pain in the butt. I hope these issues get sorted out soon as I really do love them.

[@encinobalboa]

@@LDSreliance Please do a video on recycling. Recycling is never mentioned in EV papers.

[@nikolajc7617]

Where the hell did you hear you can discharge them to zero% ?????????

[@LDSreliance]

See pinned comment.

[@fpvgearhead5034]

Nice click bait I think everybody except soccer moms know not to discharge lithium batteries to under 2.9v per cell.

[@LDSreliance]

You would be surprised. A deep dive through the comments on this video should disabuse that notion.

[@richardbranton2780]

I purchased a fuel zero battery less than a year ago and it's totally trashed. They won't answer a email about helping me charge it or replacing it

[@LDSreliance]

I am sorry to hear that. That would never happen with MillerTech.

[@sunnysideup1744]

"Don't believe everything you see or read on the internet". You mean like this video. Thumbs down champ.