Leaning vs Steering, is there a difference?

[@mhoeij]

"Leaning" may work to set up the turn, but "steering" works much faster. If you're seeing gravel mid-turn and you want to quickly change direction to avoid riding over it, changing the position of your body takes too much time. You can change direction much faster by steering. To steer really quickly, you not only push one bar, you also pull on the other one.

[@nesto9889]

I have noticed that pulling is much more aggressive and fast, probably don't want to do that too hard

[@512460]

Agree I don't know if this is correct but I use to push and pull with one hand being left hand so that my right hand had less to deal with. However I have found that pushing with one hand and pulling with the other simultaneously gets a faster reaction from the bike.. Am I right in saying this?

[@mhoeij]

@@512460 Yes, this is the easiest way to steer quickly. It'll help a lot if a car pulls out in front of you, it'll be much easier to make a fast and precise swerve if you don't rely on one hand to do all the work. The handlebars on my bike are quite narrow, so it's really helpful to get some extra leverage by using both hands when necessary. Fast steering is one of the ways to get you out of troubles when the sh*t hits the fan. The other one is braking. On the street, we should always leave some spare traction (chicken strips), so that when the unexpected happens, we won't freak out because we know that we still have options.

[@aluisious]

@@nesto9889 Do any of you guys think about how you're turning something fixed to an axle? The "push vs pull" debate is totally bizarre to me. Just turn it.

[@allendawson5752]

Folks pull with more strength then pussing. I think this is why folks feel a great difference between them. I only ever push with one hand so it's just a theory im throwing out.​@aluisious

[@hydrogen.jukebox]

I remember my MSF instructor taught me to push on the handlebars in the direction I wanted to go. Unbeknownst to me, that also affected how I thought about my shoulder alignment and how I lean with the bike. It was very helpful. By the time I even learned what countersteering was, it felt incredibly natural

[@marspral7660]

Welcome from France !! I love your content ! You're answering all my questions !

[@512460]

I see soo if I've understood correctly.. Leaning itself doesn't do anything and what's happening is people are confusing leaning with steering more. As your body when leaning inadvertently steers the bike more however people don't notice it and put getting more lean angle down to leaning itself and not more input on the bars. Is this close to what you're saying? Also thank you as I believe you also made this video to answer my question. I believe I asked "are your increasing lean angle or are you steering more to achieve this"

[@skyoom1]

Yessir 100% dead on

[@512460]

@@skyoom1 okay thanks Roger that I'll implement this into my riding to try and gey better also Again thank you for addressing this topic

[@saifaldin_]

That’s correct. I’d also like to add that while leaning itself doesn’t turn the bike much (at least not in any significant way for street applications), it does help put the rider in a position that lessen the chances of giving unintended handlebar or throttle inputs - provided that the leaning is done correctly.

[@phantomraven5044]

“Aw ima die of heat out here” - As I type this in the middle of college class while wearing flannels and a thick shirt because I’m going riding l night after class ends. I’ma die in an air conditioned enviroment

[@Pawanpurewal0]

Looking for this kinda video for 6 months finally understood the consept, thanks heaps

[@deant6627]

I always tell people, the best way to understand counter steering is while riding somewhere safe, ride with one hand (throttle hand) & slightly either push or pull. The bike will lean in the opposite direction that you push or pull.

[@jvillain9946]

Naw. You don't train using one hand. It's a bad habit to pull on the bar

[@deant6627]

@jvillain9946 The comment wasn't meant for long-term, it was mainly for people who don't understand how counter steering works to get more of an understanding of how the bike responds to these inputs. I wasn't suggesting to ride with one hand everywhere, but to try in say an empty car park when safe.

[@ethancknight]

@@jvillain9946pulling on the bars is perfectly fine. Pushing left hand and pulling right hand or vice versa is effective at turning a bike quickly. Nothing wrong with it.

[@jvillain9946]

@@ethancknight I didn't say it didn't work. I said it's a bad habit because it is.

[@jvillain9946]

@@deant6627 Still a bad habit. And when are habits made? While learning

[@lilcxxj]

You explained that quite well. I was talking to my mate about this exact topic and now after watching I think I have an even better way of explaining it. Steering more is how you turn more but leaning helps you steer more/more effectively. Because as you illustrated simply leaning without inducing any steering input does nothing. But leaning puts you in a better body position to steer better.

[@hellfritzfotografie9750]

Your videos helped me a lot while riding the last weekend. Noticed that I´m doing both.

[@davidwendel6080]

Not the video I was expecting, well done.

[@AlegMoto]

Just want to start with I love your channel, I actually just subscribed I couldn't believe I wasn't before because I've watched so many of your videos. I think there might be a better way to explain this and answer the question though, and I want to break some things down. Moving your weight to one side or another will absolutely move the bike. First it moves the bike away from the direction you're moving as you're pushing against the bike to go. This is the 3rd law of motion. As you arrive at the position and stop there, the center of mass¹ is now offset relative to it's fulcrum (this will be the bottom of the tire)(the fulcrum can also be the bike's own center of mass at higher speeds, however the relatively slow lean rate from simple weight distribution is not adequate to rotate the bike about this fulcrum and is only strong enough to rotate about the point of contact with the road, which will be almost negligible at high speeds due to the large gyroscopic force from the wheels). When the center of mass is offset from the fulcrum, it will absolutely start to fall in that direction. This is how a bike leans, and how everything can tip over and fall toward the Earth for that matter. When you give bar inputs, it is mechanically influencing the fulcrum to offset from the center of mass. "Counter steering", or steering away from the desired direction of travel, is pushing the fulcrum itself out from under the center of mass. Thus, the mass once again falls towards the Earth because the thing that was holding it up is no longer true with it. And once the correct lean for the speed and radius is achieved, the positive caster of the front wheel will point into the direction of acceleration until the gravitational and lateral forces are equal. This will carve a turn in the desired direction. *TL;DR* The important thing to note for this question is *why* we lean and *why* we counter steer (note, AND not VS). Leaning alone is not an adequate mechanism to influence a direction change when the forces stacked against it are much stronger, however the lean² is necessary for the center of mass¹ to be an exact amount offset from the fulcrum. Counter steering is a much stronger and responsive means to alter the mass:fulcrum relationship for an upcoming corner, but both can be necessary. Some corners won't require an exo-center of mass (the rider) to be offset from the bike's, but there's only so much the bike can lean before it runs out of tire coming up to its edge. Formula 1 could be faster without the driver, but motogp can't, and I think that's an important concept to ponder. The rider's mass being able to move independently of the bike is integral to turning rate. Maybe in the future race bikes can have a mobile lateral ballast lol. Side note - this is how you see people who are sitting or standing on the seat and not touching the bars are able to follow a curvy road by just shifting their weight one side to another. Funny thing about you mentioning that you believe people are inadvertently counter steering, if you are leaning your mass left or right and you *aren't* seeing the bike move one direction or another, albeit slowly, you would have to be inadvertently counter steering the bike upright, fighting gravity. All this being said I know this was aimed at more so newbie riders and this is way more than they will understand seeing as they were already confused about this topic, I'm sure you're well aware of the specifics here. Just thought I would share my way of explaining it. Love the videos, keep it up! ¹combined center of mass (bike + rider) ²combined lean (bike + rider)

[@skyoom1]

Thank you sir and I love when someone drops the more correct version of my simplified explanations 🙂.

[@Ensega]

Leaning does have an affect on direction. With or without the handle bars being held. Keep the videos coming.

[@skyoom1]

Shifting weight does* 🙂

[@Ensega]

@@skyoom1 I can accept that. Take care.

[@aluisious]

Sure it does, and it's very slow compared to steering.

[@aluisious]

So thinking about this for another 5 minutes: One of the reasons a supersport bike is bad to learn on, is because the ergos are more difficult to work with, as you're pointing out regarding your height, leaning getting you in a better position to get leverage with your arm to steer, etc. If you go out and ride a bike with big ol handlebars instead, like my Multistrada, it's more obvious how irrelevant body leaning is. The bars are close to me and move in the same plane as my elbow-forearm-hand, so I can sit upright and still turn the bars most of the way from lock to lock without having to move my body. That's why learning on a bike with friendly ergos is helpful, like a naked bike, adventure bike, sport bike with high bar risers like a Ninja 400/650 etc. If you're not worrying about how to reach clipons that are far away from you, and you're not accidentally doing things just trying to get to them, it makes it easier to figure out what you're actually doing.

[@langhamp8912]

I've never suffered from "uncomfortable sport bike positions" with my sportbikes but I have suffered from having difficulty controlling a sportbike with the long and low body position. All my recent bikes may not be quite so upright as a Multistrada but still rather close to me and a tad bit higher (ie '22 XSR900). With closer and perhaps higher handlebars, you can input the steering very quickly and be done with it, holding the bars very loosely. So we don't need body positioning anymore. A supersport is for the racetrack but not just at any speeds. It's only at the elevated speeds that the ergonomics begin to make sense.

[@neilspires7259]

I think this is why I enjoy my supermoto so much and have been pretty cautious on my ninja. If my motards engine just didn't vibrate everything to the point that my hands arms and ass were going numb once I hit the kill switch and go to step off the bike, it'd be nearly perfect.

[@KimmyR3]

it's not necessarily bad to learn on.. it's just unforgiving for bad techniques compared to upright bikes. you really have to know what you're doing with supersports and you can't just muscle your way through because of its ergos.

[@KimmyR3]

heckk, even just travelling on straight roads on supersports have a technique, or else you'll fatigue yourself or destroy your wrists. lol

[@DogMania]

First! Love your content as a Newbie! Keep up the awesome work!!!

[@nogiye15]

Thank you for the video, from my perspective (a non rider) my belief was that you have to do both but not exclusively, they kind of work together. Leaning your entire body weight off the bike was just reserved for when you want to get every small percentage of performance out of a sports bike when cornering. This cleared up a lot about this topic I appreciate the non physics simple explanation!

[@Kowzorz]

i was shocked, as a new moto rider and veteran bicycler, how much the action of steering controls the angle of the bike. It truly felt like that "gyro" demonstration you always see in physics lessons with the bicycle-flywheel.

[@kvernesdotten]

My thoughts is that every technique has its place and a purpose, but to be viable tools all of them need to be practised regularly or you will lose it. Theres a right tool for every job, and as long as you know why you do something, what it does and you do it on purpose, I dont think theres any right or wrong... Within reason of course. I do really like the nuance in this video though. Speed, road conditions, type of bike, weather etc all affect why one would choose one technique over another, and its imo why getting good at riding road bikes is so demanding. The most effective imo is when one can seemlessly integrate it all into the same motion though, but that does require (at least for me) to practise it independently first. Alot.

[@MegaHellstrike]

Ever since I switched from a 125 to a 650 I was scared of counter steering too much. My 125 was so light and nimble that I didn't even notice my steering, leaning was enough. I wiped out with the 650 on my first ride (no injuries, bike just needed brake levers replaced and some adjustments) with it so now I'm on a less nimble, heavier bike with the fear of slipping out again as my passenger. Bike has crash bars now and I'm actively trying to remind myself to actively consider my steering when I'm taking a corner on a country road. Scary stuff but I'll get there!

[@lassebrustad]

I've seen a speed wobble save on DanDanTheFireman's channel recently where the rider had his hands off the steering to not interact with it, while he also had to steer to avoid crashing into cars at highway speeds, he did it by only leaning, but I wouldn't rely on only leaning, except if it's completely nessecary, like that situation

[@cadeyrndragheim22]

Leaning without keeping inputs straight will make the bike turn. Because it works just like on a bicycle. It makes the same angle as pushing on the bar, making the bike fall in a way

[@neilspires7259]

Im just starting out on a supersport. This is kind of a sidenote but i live at the top of a hill thats a couple miles long and i can get from the top to the bottom without my hands touching the bars. I can even go around fairly shatp corners but you have to lean (or as previously as stated sgifting my weight) quite far to one side. Try it youself- if you're riding around 30-40 mph down a fairly long, moderately steep incline lean back and if you're balanced and pointing in a safe direction let go of your bars and see how much effort it takes to steer the bike without using the bars. Youll be surprised at how far you have to hang off the bike to make it respond.

[@KimmyR3]

this is because of the gyro effect of the wheels plus trail/rake on the bike.. which kinda** makes the bike balance itself. but yes, at speeds it really does take quite the effort to make it lean just by shifting weight unless there's something wrong mechanically.

[@RobertMorgan]

@@KimmyR3 YET, I watch guys on youtube on liter supersports, going 60+ and dip-ducking lane to lane instantly using just their knees, no hands, all lean.

[@KimmyR3]

@@RobertMorgan how'd you know it;s all lean though? just from the vid? and as what was demo'd on this video, people are just not realizing while leaning is that they're actually pushing the bars. try it.. go hands free and steer through traffic by just putting weight on the pegs or tank.. good luck. :)

[@killernugget97]

To my understanding , leaning / counter leaning is all about setting up for corners at different speeds. Counter leaning (effectively leaning the bike and not you) is good for quick direction changes at low speed ( roundabouts / speed diversions or navigating traffic) and to a more severe extend side saddling (sitting outwards from where you're gonna turn to allow the bike to lean at really low speed without wanting to fall as much for U turns and such). Normal leaning is for setting up at speed since shifting the weight inwards (sliding ass over a bit) to a turn allows the bike to turn more effectively before hitting hard parts while also making it easier to tip in with bias to that side . Steering on the other hand or counter steering is your actual input of making the bike move aka your interaction with the bars. Counter steering is really good for effectively halving the effort needed to steer since both arms are being used for it (push and pull) and it means you have alot more power to wrench the bike around , this becomes very useful if you're riding a bigger bike or need to act in haste ( dodging pot holes or hazards in general). this also becomes more of a thing at speed since the gyroscopic effect of a bike gets stronger the faster you go ( once again setting up helps this a bit). Ride enough and this stuff kinda just falls into place over time

[@gtjovan]

Thanks much for your videos !

[@atheist4life229]

I find the more I think about counter steering the worse I am at it. For some reason after riding for just a bit over 7 months now it just feels natural to countersteer. At my MSF course I was so focused on the movement that I barely counter steered. Once I just trusted my body and didn’t overthink it the action just felt natural to me.

[@brentonpope7774]

I think all this talk about counter steering has just confused people and their technique has suffered as they are so focussed on trying to do it. I rode for over twenty years without anyone ever mentioning counter steering. I didn't know what it was and I didn't know how to do it. I just pointed my body and head in the direction of where I wanted to go and the bike followed.

[@kimo_db]

In motion the bike works like a giant gyroscope and as you know they are very stable, so it would be hard for you to alter the equilibrium point just by trying to "pull" the bike via leaning the body. On the contrary, in reality the steering feels effortless. What else feels effortless? Correct, counter-steering. It just fits that even if you only lean, you are somehow inducing counter-steering and that's what causes the bike to also lean. Ride safe!

[@aluisious]

Bikes are a lot more complicated than gyroscopes. The way the lean of the bike and steering angle of the front wheel interact to stabilize the turn interact is dynamic.

[@damienaldcroft9949]

My friend told me I needed to lean into the turn more by straightening my outside arm and crooking my inside arm. Prior to that I was counter-steering only while keeping my body straight-ish. I'm still working on it but it feels like when I'm leaned in, inside elbow crooked and outside arm straight-ish, it feels like I have more sensitivity and control on my inside (steering?) arm. I'm still working on this but it feels more secure than just counter-steering without leaning.

[@RobertMorgan]

Coming here from a video where the rider was showing, on the same bike, how easy it is to drive handless with no bar inputs at all, just lean, and pretty damn aggressively, so the confusion multiplies. I've been riding for a week, zero problems on turns, going straight is where I crash lol.

[@skyoom1]

To hopefully help clarify this isnt about shifting weight on the bike, this is breaking down a common misconception for new riders getting old advice and to hopefully clarify for the guys without the old advice whys its such a common question 🙂. But you cant turn aggressively with no inputs at speed, at slow speeds the bike may not have enough force to straighten up the wheel and people can pull off some really cool stuff with this but the faster the bike the more upright it wants to stay. Its also why the faster you go the heavier the bars become to push and the more quickly they'll return to neutral should you remove the steering. Wish I had cruise control on one of my current bikes to really show the influence of shifting weight at different speeds

[@literal_lee]

​​@@skyoom1I think the point is, that contrary to what several youtube instructors claim, that there are other ways to initiate a turn than countersteering. "You ALWAYS countersteer" is simply not true.

[@blakeschwartz4424]

Thanks brother🫡

[@skyoom1]

🫡

[@Luke-hw3ne]

babe wake up

[@pavo_9768]

So I use my entire body to pull/push bars to steer more?

[@yepxz]

Hey man ur camera quality is super clean which camera do you use

[@skyoom1]

Gopro hero10 🙂

[@andulasis6283]

Dumb question, but at what CC/Bike size/speed does this apply?

[@charliebrewer1668]

Thank you for all these bangers. The info here is invaluable. Respect 🫡

[@skyoom1]

🫡

[@equinox2909]

Leaning can make the turn sharper. At least that it'll do base on my experience.

[@ariesworld7]

If I understand correctly, the movement of the bar end coordinates in the x axis is steering and y axis is leaning. 🤔 I think somehow we all do this without much thought when we are on a bicycle 🚴 but when it comes to the motorcycle the stakes are high and become convoluted 🙂 This push and pull explanation is always confusing to me..

[@RobertMorgan]

11:50 Yeah I've seen riders turn WAYYYYYYY harder with their hands off the bars, knees only, so the confusion! Everyone says something different, and on my brand new Ninja 500, I THINK about flexing my balls to the left I'm making a 90deg turn, I glance to the side it's ripping a turn. The TINIEST even shift of my body turns it and it worries me.

[@TheCriticalArchitect]

What about when flicking the bike over? I imagine the instinct is easy to find, but what should be maximized?

[@skyoom1]

You just mean aggressively leaning it over?

[@TheCriticalArchitect]

@@skyoom1 I mean going from a left full lean turn to a right full lean turn.

[@saifaldin_]

⁠​​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠When flicking the bike over, pay attention to your body movements. Any movement, although fast, should be done smoothly to 1. Not upset the chassis, 2. Maintain contact with the bike and 3. Have the correct handlebar and throttle inputs. Having said that, there’s no reason to be at max lean angle and doing a quick flick to the other extreme on the streets. 😅 unless you’re talking about emergency manoeuvres..

[@aluisious]

@@saifaldin_ No emergency maneuver on the street is going to involve "full lean" and especially not a transition from one full lean to the other.

[@wasabipierson8229]

what about pushing down on the handle bars. like if want to go right then u push down on the right handle bar. after watching this has kinda made me question the way i ride n lean my bike lol. iv never dragged knee on the street however i have leaned my bike over pretty far on some sharper corners. not sure if counter steering is something im just doin n not noticing or what.

[@skyoom1]

Down does nothing you're just giving yourself a mechanical disadvantage making it harder haha. Don't worry you're counter steering, but try tucking elbows by the tank and pushing forward on the bars through triceps and when you lean keep those elbows low and bent and you'll get a lot better feedback and easier steering 🙂

[@mtchlldavis3]

Hey can you make a video about how to maintain control of the bike when you're accelerating really hard? I feel like once you get to a certain rpm and certain speed, I feel so not in control of the bike and I get scared and let off the gas haha. How do you keep the bike tracking straight under throttle at high speed and maintain control of the bike?

[@hardscope7744]

I find if I’m accelerating really hard your throttle inputs must be very smooth and not choppy and another thing you need have really good sticky tires and tires needs to be wormed up they can’t be cold that’s the best thing to have a good control of your bike and have some balls if you are afraid you will make lots of mistakes

[@Amplefii]

Make sure you are leaned over the tank when doing hard acceleration to counter the power trying to essentially power wheelie you also be very careful accelerating without proper position over the tank and good smooth throttle control you can induced death wobbles

[@skyoom1]

Yessir that's actually a great idea for a video 🙂

[@mtchlldavis3]

@@skyoom1 yeah I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I have an mt07 and can max it out, pin it in first gear and stay pinned through all the gears. Recently bought a 1000 and just about every time I try to get on it, around 12-13k rpm, it just feels like I have no control of the bike

[@skyoom1]

@@mtchlldavis3 Hmmmm, could you expand a bit when you say no control what do you mean exactly? Is the front wheel starting to come up a hair or something else just feels a bit off?

[@davidsmith3382]

Leaning your body DOES help with turning. It's just such a small effect that is almost impossible to actually turn with. It shifts the center of gravity to either side of your bike, causing it to move in that direction. However, this is only really effective and beneficial in less than ideal conditions to slightly increase your traction, or in race applications.

[@situatedillness]

Yes, steering is actual steering at slow speed like u turns, or taking a turn from a stop. Leaning or steering while riding you push left to go left. Or push right to go right. I feel you’re starting a free motorcycle riding class without charging my dude. lol. Keep it ip

[@dasauto44]

Do people really pay $400 a month on insurance for these bikes?

[@wyvern4588]

Anything with fairings is 4-8X more expensive. All about risk to the insurance company between wrecks and thefts. Shopping for insurance a XSR900 cost HALF what a MT-09 costs, but 1/4 the cost of a 600. I'm not a sportbike fan and I'm glad because I couldn't afford to insure one. Basic full coverage on my XSR900 costs $50 a month.

[@stevenyerry2209]

but leaning is fun...

[@jvillain9946]

Are you talking about body position lean(aka body english) or motorcycle lean? A bike will turn by just leaning. Counter steering turns the bike because it induces lean. Thats why you can steer without hands just using body weight. They work in conjuction. But just leaning your body wont turn the bike. It just shifts the balance point and moment of inertia. Im also confused about your usage of lean and counterlean. You seem to be using them interchangably. Lean typically is indicative a motorcycle and body leaning to the same degree in the direction of a turn. Counter lean is body position. The bike leans towards the turn and the body leans opposite, sort of sit on top of the bike. Body lean is body position beyond the lean of the bike in the same direction of the turn. Thats why I call body lean positive and negative body english. It makes its so much less confusing lol.

[@tozkal96]

you don't have to induce lean by using the handle bars, you can just lean. how else do you explain turning whilst nohanding and not holding the handlebars or while doing a wheelie. and you did turn or swerve rather by only leaning in the vid at 11:00 but then you tried to lean without shifting weight. you can balance your self and lean your shoulders without anything happening but you can also turn the bike completely by only shifting your weight around and leaning the bike.

[@skyoom1]

At road speeds you absolutely do have to use the handlebars to turn. You can influence the direction of the bike with weight, but you're never turning at speed without touching the bars unless you're in a square mile sized parking lot

[@sriavula]

yea the difference is speed

[@aluisious]

No, it isn't.

[@sriavula]

@@aluisious how?

[@matthewkhieokham3152]

Do you have to move your bum ? 😂

[@StewieTopless]

Ok, the way I conceptualized this is you’re talking about body steering. A concept disproven time & time again. Forgive me for being the know it all, but my mind only sees this one way. If I want to change the direction of my bike I must upset its balance by initiating lean angle via my input on the bars. Body steering or “leaning” as I understand in this video does not turn the bike. When we employ body position on a motorcycle, we are gaining a geometric advantage. That advantage does not turn the bike, but allows a greater parameter to change direction in. I know that when I input pressure on my bars it causes the bike to fall to either side & that fall is what “lean” is in my mind. I think the fix for this confusion is to stop playing a semantics game with our nomenclature. Body position is not leaning, even though your brain tells you you’re leaning & you show that when you hung off while goes straight. We need to learn to disconnect ourselves from the bike & understand that its ability isn’t strictly tied to our own. A specific bikes turning radius has much more to do with its geometry than how much skill I have. It’s why trail braking is even a thing. To turn the bike, it must lean & we encourage that lean with bar input. If that bar input can’t create enough lean for a given corner then I may employ body positioning to gain a geometric advantage over my steering & complete the turn… ok, that over with. I do have one big point of disagreement with you. I may be extreme, but I try not to put any unnecessary pressure on my bars. Even when I’m using body position, I’m never holding myself on the bike with my bars. I did successfully understand how that encourages better body positioning & possibly allowing a rider to gain said geometric advantage, but if I want to change my direction, I apply the right amount of pressure to bring my bike to the desired lean angle & do nothing else with the bars. They aren’t there for me to brace or do push ups on. Again, I may be extreme, but I ride this way by understanding the bike is balancing itself while it moves. So any extra pressure I may be apply could hinder the steering from being able to correct itself & stay upright. I know you know what you mean, but I fear a newb may misunderstand this concept & learn a very bad habit right off the bat. I love sport bikes & most people complain about the aggressive riding position. I always heard about pain in the wrist. Pain I never experience because I emphasize being like a feather on my bars. Either way, more gems & we appreciate your contribution

[@skyoom1]

We're in agreement with everything if I'm reading you correctly haha. I only used the pulling as an example of why "lean more" works and was so prevalent even with track riders for decades, I did mention only pushing to turn for finer control but may have not emphasized that point enough

[@StewieTopless]

@@skyoom1 we are… I comment mostly cause this conversation confuses me & I want to understand how people trip themselves up with this. I understand how target fixation gets us in trouble, I understand why throttle control is so important, but I can’t grasp why some people are oblivious to their actions. You wanted to go left & you pushed the bar left, regardless of method like “body steering” or counter steering. So if you need to change direction more, then you turn more. You do more of the thing that changed your direction which is bar input. However you arrive at that bar input is preference, but the input itself is a necessity to changing direction. I have a video idea I’d like you to touch on since you’re really good at breaking things down. Another semantic we use in the community is “front brake is 70% of your braking power”. In my mind this sounds like we primarily use the front brake because it’s “stronger”. On paper, this is true, but most don’t understand why & the way it’s described doesn’t help. The front brake is a primary control because of the weight transfer that happens when we decelerate. If for some reason weight transferred to the rear when we slowed down, the whole 70/30% thing would be flipped on its head. When I first started riding this caused me to use my brakes more independently of each other, rather than tandem like they should be. I would use too much of either & have a rough stop with my front & easily lock up the rear. Only when I started using both brakes did it give me the stability I needed to feel & be safe. Basically, I’d like to change the way we talk about slowing the bike. People must understand that grip comes from weight & thats why your front brake is a better option most of the time. It’s mere coincidence to its ability that there are more & bigger brakes upfront. Manufacturers do this cause they understand the demand from the front of the bike when slowing, but the braking system itself doesn’t make the front stronger more than physics does.

[@skyoom1]

@@StewieTopless ahhhhhh I get what you're getting at now. I really think where the confusion comes from is older very experienced riders do explain it in the way I described of "lean more" which when you're brand new and something seems to work it kinda sticks like glue to the memory. I also think that the better head and body position rather than staying neutral gives a lot more strength to push, so for the smaller guys that way of teaching the really can make a huge difference as the weight of the bars can be a mental hurdle to get over, on supers especially. Many feel theyre pushing too hard to begin with and pushing harder is tough to commit too when youre already putting some effort into it. And I hope to cover both the brakes with a trail braking video since I think it'd be the best context to explain the importance of front BUT it is so much harder to film a trail braking video than I thought since I try to not film any illegal speeds. That one's still a work in progress for me to figure out how to visualize on camera haha

[@literal_lee]

​​@@StewieToplessCounter to your firm belief, bodysteering (or leaning) works. Indeed countersteering works quicker and more precise, but that does not mean that leaning is null and void. Even if we lean and subconciously induce some countersteering (which is not always the case), if it feels like leaning,.... it is leaning and not countersteering.

[@StewieTopless]

@@literal_lee Steering is the guidance &/or control of a vessels direction. Yes, leaning your body to either side of the bike will upset the bike enough to change direction, but would you call that change guided or controlled? Do you know the specific body position “required” for 39° of lean angle? Steering the bike can only be done by bar input as that input can be precise enough to have “control” over your bikes direction. I hate this argument cause we all are saying the same thing, some people just disagree with how we say it because it confused them(me). Me using body positioning techniques is not “leaning”. No matter how far I hang off the right side of my bike, if I don’t press forward on my right grip I will hit the wall ahead of me & we’re debating on at what angle I hit said wall based on where I pointed my shoulders. If I don’t want to hit the wall, I must push on that right grip(with or without hanging off) & the bike falls right which initiates the entry portion of the turn. Body steering is a myth. Can I vaguely veer in the left direction by sliding my butt off the seat & putting all my weight on the left foot peg? Sure. But can I successfully swerve out of the way of an accident by doing that? No sir/ma’am. I need bar input to swerve. That’s what steering is. Body position has more to do with weight distribution & grip than it does creating or maintaining lean angle. Please reply cause I have a bit more, but I’m trying not to write a trilogy, but I really enjoy talking about this, but I really want that person who needs to read it to… read it lol we’ll get to the bottom of this soon enough

[@donDiago]

Confucius says The third law of motion states that “every action has an equal and opposite reaction”. or was that Joe Biden when he had wind and followed through. Or maybe I.N. 🤣🤡

[@VinnieMV]

The Language is the Confusion! Words like Leaning, Steering including Counter-Steering are used by Riders and Instructors to Convey an “Action” that Produces a “Result.” What Result do What? How is that “Result” achieved? This is what you want to know! I had a Japanese 🇯🇵 Karate 🥋 Instructor who Spoke no English T Suzuki 10th Dan and demonstrated with Actions and Corrections and a few broken English words - he was brilliant. So I am going to explain to you how to Corner at any Speed with couple of phrases - here goes - “Body and Butt before the Brakes” - Move the body in in the direction of the Corner you are negotiating then Start braking 1-2-3-45678 (gear down if needed at 678) When you have reached your “estimated” speed and desired tip in point and are trailing the Front brake 8765432 Push the Handlebar in the direction you wish to go if your calculation 🧮 was wrong - you can further Tighten your line by gently squeezing the front brake 2-34, when you can see the exit - “Bar Before Body and or Butt” - start pushing on the opposite side, when the bike is Pointed (like a Rifle) at your next Destination ease on the gas ⛽️ 1-2-3-45678910 at 1, 2 or 3 depending on the next required Body and or Butt position move your body. Practice Practise Practice! The rest is largely intuitive. Tip: you will hardly ever need to move your Butt on a Public Road 🛣️ all you need to do is “ Mirror 🪞 🥰Hug “ which means before you Brake position your head and or torso to the side you are going to push the Bar at Tip in. Please note I never used the Confusing Words Leaning and Steering in my phrases or explanation once, Reason? Do the above a 1000 times a week and you will be leaning and Steering your bike like a Pro. Safe riding, Enjoy 😉

[@literal_lee]

Hi Greg 😘