[HPA Q&A] Engine break-in myths dispelled | Performance Engine Building

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[@ZeroBoostBuick]

Another thing I like doing during break in is to use engine breaking as much as possible. This way the negative vacuum forces the oil between the rings just the right amount to help polish the roughness of the cylinder wall.

[@boostedbuiltgarage]

Great video! Makes me feel better knowing that I run my engines in, in a very similar procedure👌

[@naydenboyanov6808]

I already feel like a star, 2 of my questions have been answered the proper way and made separate topics out of... Thank you Andre and HP Academy team, you guys rock! As a self educated car entusiast all the info I can get my hands means alot and is greatly appreciate. Keep it up, I enjoy wathing every video you guys release! Cheers from small country of Bulgaria.

[@PastorOfMuppetsVIVIVI]

Getting my ej257 long block fully built so this helped a lot, great video.

[@LarsFuglsang]

Love your videos, thank you so much, when i have time ill will take your full courses, to lean more about engine building and tuning.. :) Thanks again for the free videos, this is a great service for all, and so needed!

[@rickss69]

Answer for those who didn't watch until the end...don't use "break-in" oils as they are just a marketing ploy and in most cases subpar to all other available over the counter oils.

[@YZFoFittie]

If people saw how Sport Bikes and Dirt bikes are "tested" at the factory before being put in a crate, they would likely never argue a hard break in procedure again. These vehicles are very high revving, high performance machines with incredible reliability and they are broken in by DYNO runs to verify output! =)

[@hoonaticbloggs5402]

Tolerance is so tight now it’s unnecessary unless you have a flat tappet cam (unlikely nowadays)

[@magronet]

Mv Agusta are known to put 3 runs before mouting motor in frame. And again after assembling. Last of the three goes to redline.

[@aidenlothian9642]

They aren't broken in on dynos from the factory. They are tested to be in full working order and safe for public highways. It's a legal thing, nothing to do with breaking in the engines. It's data logging that the engines past the factory tests.

[@YZFoFittie]

@@aidenlothian9642 so basically broken in...

[@aidenlothian9642]

@@YZFoFittie No.... Can you not read.

[@mrfumetsu]

These same principals and theories match the break in procedure from the shop I just got my engine from, good stuff! After 50 miles my break in is complete, send it!

[@gordowg1wg145]

A very touchy topic with about as many opinions are there are engine builders. Fortunately, modern tolerances and materials make this less critical for long engine life than it used to be. For ME, usual practice is to start it at a fast idle, usually taken care of by the cold start/choke, and a quick visual check for leaks then drive it a shortish distance and recheck as it comes up to temp'. If everything still seems OK, then continue driving it with load and rpm increasing a bit to around 1/3rd throttle (depends on car) and up to half max' rpm then after 25-30 miles(40-50kms) return and, for my own vehicles, change the oil and filter and recheck everything, make adjustments as required and continue driving it until around 300 miles (500kms) I'm using full throttle and rpm, when I'll give it another oil and filter change with the good stuff. Seems to work OK so far and oil consumption on the engines seems to be low with good torque. That said, different honing methods (finish, plates used, etc), ring materials and design, bore materials, even pistons - especially if gas ported, etc, can make significant differences in the proceedure required. Oh, and intended use - a high end drag engine will be rebuilt between runs and the 'break in' is done between firing it up and staging for the run, but a commuting vehicle may be expected to last hundreds of thousands of miles with low oil consumption. So best practice, I guess, is to go by the recommendations of the various manufacturers. Remember, with a build it is up to YOU to do your research and get as much information as you can then YOU have to make the best call you can because if it turns to crap, it is YOU that is going to have to pay to remedy it.

[@hpa101]

I agree that it's getting much harder to mess up the engine break in process these days. That being said, a purposeful and methodical approach to bedding in the rings is always going to give you the very best chance of a successful, powerful and reliable engine that provides a long service life.

[@manitoublack]

This was a great webinar. thanks Andre

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

I've always tended to err on the side of caution rather than going hell for leather. I have noticed those people who thrash it from the start are more prone to blowing smoke after a short time, whereas I never seem to have that problem. I don't baby it, but I also don't hit WOT until it has had a real good chance to break in.

[@hpa101]

'Hell for leather' is definitely not what we're suggesting. Neither is babying the engine. It's about varying the load on the engine to help bed the rings without creating excessive heat.

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

No, and that is why I was against a friend of mine taking his brand new straight off the showroom floor Aprilia RSV-4, having the shop fit a factory modded ECU and pipe, and putting it straight on the dyno to do power runs. It now blows a small amount of smoke. I ran in my brand new 2008 Kawasaki ZX-10R using the factory recommended load and revs and mine still doesn't blow smoke. I think another friend of mine did the right thing with his 2014 ZX-10R, and that was more spirited than the factory suggests, but not all out crazy either. I think the factory recommendations are probably a bit too conservative in both revs and duration. I've built numerous car engines and have always taken that middle ground approach, and none of them have had oil issues. I had never owned a brand new bike before so I went conservative on that one because I trusted Kawasaki more than my own gut on that one.

[@adamkhan5274]

Raced professionally for years in all different categories with different engine sizes and specs and was a test driver for Renault F1. All I can say is ghe engines that made the best power were engines that were thrashed from the off (warmed up obvs before doing so) but those engines that were used gently to begin with ended up being less reliable and making less power (of the same type).

[@kevinz0681]

That’s what I was always told, break it in like you want it to run, if you baby it, it will run like crap. Is that correct ?

[@JuanAntonEgo]

Great Vid. ! Makes alot of sense what u shared with us. Thank u!

[@salvatorehayes2753]

"After That It's All Down Hill" Most Race Car Thing Ever hahahahah

[@harrisonkay575]

Mate, nice and clear video. Very informative. Liked and subbed.

[@tazgrant4521]

The way I do it is first start up I rev to between 2 and 3000 revs so cams get plenty of lubrication and if new valve springs putting a heat cycle into them with the engine up to temperature. I then switch off and leave engine for 24hrs. I then next day get it up to temperature then go up and down with the throttle and rev it to not more than 4000rpm. I load the engine now and again but mostly just up and down with the revs. The vacuum of coming off throttle pull the rings onto the bore. I do this for 50 miles but it will be tricky if you have no where to do this for obvious reasons. I then change oil and filter but cut open old one looking for metal particles that are not supposed to be there. If ok I then go and do the same up and down with revs but rev it to 5-6000 revs and load the engine more by finding hilly roads to do it on. There is no blow by after the engine has done high mileage and after a engine strip down old rings are reused if bore is ok. This method I have done on bikes also but rev them slightly higher. Other methods can work but this way is proven to work well for longevity of engine components. Mineral oil is used up to the 1000 mile mark then whatever oil after that. Oil filter and oil is also replaced at 500miles then again at 1000.

[@allancnc]

Finally i found one that confirm what i have always been saying :)

[@user-ic1pm6uo7w]

you took the words out of my mouth!

[@zacattack45]

I feel like an subject should be discussed in conjunction with this topic is proper tuning. People fail to meet the proper tuning requirements then blame the engine when it fails.

[@J-Eagan]

Most informative no bullshit answer I’ve ever heard on the topic! Thanks Andre! Do you think additives like ZDDP run in addition to the mineral oil provide any benefits during break in?

[@kzz8971]

Thank you for this video Andre! What about rotary engines like the Renesis?

[@eb972]

I use Amsoil break in for about 300 miles. Done.

[@Limeayy]

Dang great lesson, I also want to know going with conventional oil just to breakin the piston rings is a good idea. Other than the Dino oil thats typically in the breakin oils like amsoil or drivenracing, i wonder does it have zinc and thats all? 30W single viscosity motor oil is what everyone uses i hear.

[@cameronbrett5687]

Hey Andre, I know you mentioned you use a good mineral oil rather then running in oils, have you had any experience with the Penrite 15w40 running in oil? What’s your preferred choice that we can buy in aus to suit new engines... mainly Bmw turbo engines. Keep up the good videos!

[@arkangelsklucifer]

what are your thoughts about break-in when new rebuilt engine had cylinder walls honed then WPC treated, piston rings too! and piston skirts/wall were WPC treated? still same 100 or 200 km ?

[@tsiaj]

What mineral oil should I use to break in the piston rings in my 2015 chevy cruze 1.4 turbo, currently uses 5w30 mobil 1 advanced full synthetic 10,000 mile oil.

[@2slofouru]

I have a built ej25 and everything from the intake and intercooler piping to exhaust and turbo are aftermarket. The ecu is a haltech 2500 and injectors are huge. It's going to be scary for me with so much money in the block and heads, and I'll have to do a lot of research to be sure it cranks asap.

[@PANTYEATR1]

i co-sign. good tech info

[@dny9394]

Suzuki RM125 recommend changing ring at 6 hours competition. You can't afford to 'bed the ring' before racing again, so go straight back and race. No bedding in is possible. Is that right?

[@jonathanjonnylightning718]

Definitely change oil periodically though to get metal pieces out of oil filter though

[@DivergentDroid]

@Cam montreuil engines Can't avoid it. Those metal shavings will get everywhere oil can travel but you can mitigate the potential damage by frequent oil changes during the break in period. Many people also use a strong magnet they keep attached to the oil plug to help catch some extra shavings.

[@mickromer6199]

our general rule at work is once a big diesel is built it leaves the workshop with a fully loaded B-double..

[@magronet]

Totally agree with you. But Zddp is today totally out. I use H-bn instead for thermic performance and a better coefficient of friction.

[@TasosMoschatos]

One question: with what you are honing the cylinder and in 2021 you need to use mineral oil for break in? If the answer is with chainsaw then I totally understand.

[@clovisniclounivis8403]

Hello , what advice would you give for those engine that have no cross hatch /hone , and have smooth bore cylinder ? for exemple audi 5 cylinder have plasma coated smooth bore , what break in is best for those please ?

[@Bull761]

good information but old news to aircraft people. Standard practice these days is straight mineral oil for first 25-50hrs or until oil consumption stabilizes. Then go to your preferred oil - synthetic or whatever. Don't use an oil with detergents or friction modifiers during run-in, as you say. Run in above 75% power if temps are under control, vary throttle setting, keep the rings seated on the bores. I own old Alfas (2L Nord engine), notorious for being smoky and burning oil. My theory is that the factory recommended running-in schedule is exactly the worse thing you could do! Drive it like you stole it.

[@hpa101]

This is also old news to automotive people - None of this is new information and we don't claim that we created this process. The problem is that there's so much misinformation and misunderstanding about the break in process and what's actually going on.

[@Bull761]

agree. PS - do you know of any ECU or dyno shops that are familiar with the old Weber Marelli IAW 04 (late 80's/90's) systems in Oz?

[@mikaelgaiason688]

@@Bull761 Saw you didn't get an answer and wanted to give you a suggestion if you're still looking for help on that ECU. I'm not in Aus and I have no idea how the market is out there, but I work for Ducati and you might have some luck if you look for a Ducati tuner. We ran their systems up until very recently when everything started switching to Bosch. I'm half decent on the older stuff, but an old master tech that's been at it for decades will be reeeeeal familiar with MM. Just a random suggestion out of left field for ya.,

[@Bull761]

Thanks Mikael for the suggestion. I reached out to some Duc guys here, did find some info, managed to burn new chips, several sets actually, before I found a 'tune' I was happy with. Trial and error and certainly not 'real-time'. Thanks.

[@mikaelgaiason688]

@@Bull761 Great to hear buddy, glad you found something. Most full exhaust kits and stuff like that come with a USB thumb drive that has a basemap burned on it. I've been hoarding every one I do so maybe I'll be able to help the next guy in 20 years or so. haha. I don't want you to waste a bunch of your time writing, but could you give me a quick explanation of what you had and what you found? Just for my personal knowledge, maybe it'll help the next guy.

[@KemalDaysal]

Hello, I have a 2005 Renault Laguna 2 1.9 Dci (F9Q 750) (120 HP) that have been rebuilt on Feb 11. Everything has been renewed with new ones except crankshaft, camshaft and piston rods. The reason of rebuilding it was burning oil (350ml / 1000km and blue smoke especially on cold) and high blowby at idle on oil cap. The cylinders has been bored by 0.5mm and new oversized pistons inserted. The car runs fine without any leaks, without any smoke at operating temperature and it's powerful now. Still has a little bit of blowby smoke on pcv valve at idle at operating temperature but i hope it'll be gone when break-in procedure is finished. My concern is, the service put a factory suggested Elf Evol 900 SXR 5W40 "Fully Synthetic" oil as initial oil and then they tested the car without my approval. They even said they redlined it on highway and went to 170 kmh which is contrary to break-in period and initial break-in hours. I researched about the break-in oil and break-in procedures and learned a few things but it was too late to tell them to service. They already done this stage. They didn't know about break-in oil anyway and said "use the oil which is recommended by factory as we did it like this". When i asked them about break-in procedure, they said drive it like you want it, it won't matter... Since rebuilt, i've driven the car for 300 kilometers in 7 days and following the break-in procedures. Not lugging it, not overreving it, not passing 3000 rpm and avoiding full throttle sudden accelerations. I've been avoiding idling it for extended time. I've been using the RPM band widely as much as i can to help seating the rings to walls. In 3rd gear, accelerating smoothly from 2000 to 2800ish rpms then letting the foot off the gas and it drops slowly to 2000 again and repeating it on different gears when driving. Not driving it like a cruise control on same RPM. My question is, should it break in like this with fully synthetic oil which is on the car for 260 kilometers? Should i stay with the synthetic oil inside until i reach 800kms and change it or should i change the oil and oil filter to mineral oil like Castrol GTX Essential 15W40 etc. immediately? I fear to glaze the cylinder walls or rings and can't successfully do the break-in procedure with the synthetic oil inside. I fear to damage the healthy turbo or other components with mineral oil too but the turbo repair is much more cheaper than an engine job which i paid significant amount of money. Is it too late for switching to mineral oil? Are my cylinders have been already glazed and rings wont seat as i fear this to happen? How should i test that? What do you recommend in a situation like this? I was planning to do the first oil change when i reach 800kms after rebuild, then the second at 1300km and the 3rd at 4000km. I just want the engine to have a healthy break-in procedure and have a long life and decent performance. The money spent on oils and oil changes is not that much important. I want to drive this car healthy for 3-4 years, equals to 30.000 or 40.000 kilometers with my recent driving hours. I bought the car at August 2020 and have been fixing the problems caused by previous owner, sadly. I’m waiting for your advice, thank you for reading this and thanks for helping.

[@hpa101]

I think you will find this video more helpful than the shorter one here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4PYnGl9ga-amKM I would do your first oil change much sooner than 800kms and to be fair the bedding in process will be finished long before then, probably even less than 100k. Some race engines don't even see that many 800kms before a rebuild and they are bed in long before then too. The link above addresses oil type, but you are on the right track with light to moderate load and varying RPM etc etc, I don't think you have anything to worry about really, sounds like you're doing all the right things but do change that oil and yes filters as well. More details on that in my link above for you too, hope it helps. When you have spent a lot of money I fully understand this is a nerve-wracking moment. I can't comment on what the service department did, but if you already had over 100kms on it at the time it might be fine. More people are overly cautious with break in compared to what your engine is actually OK with, which can also be bad but in general caution is a good thing - Taz.

[@KemalDaysal]

@@hpa101 Hello, thank you for your precious and detailed answer and fast response. I will watch the video at the first chance. I want to ask a few more questions as i keep driving the car day by day. I've driven the car for 350 kms since rebuilt until today. The service drove it like 60 kms and tested it's power when they finished rebuilding it. I'll stick to your advise and i'll change the oil as soon as i can in the next 50kms The car is filled with "fully synthetic 5W-40" since rebuilt, which is recommended in factory guide and i've been using it for 2 years before the rebuilt. But i haven't still decided which type of oil to use at the oil change at 400-500 kms after rebuild. When changing it, should i continue to use the 5W-40 fully synthetic or should i switch to 15W-40 mineral type Castrol GTX, Shell Helix HX5 etc. In the country i live, they don't sell specified break-in oils or SAE 30W type of oils. The closest is 15W-40 or 20W-50 mineral oils but they have high detergents, too. I can't find enough information about the ZDDP levels. I haven't do WOT yet and haven't passed 3200 rpm but it's really powerful between 1800-3000 rpms on %50 throttle without exhaust smoke even with deleted cat. But i still fear that i've been doing the good break-in exercises but with wrong oil and that could lead to cylinder glazing and compression loss as i read on the websites and forums, because i don't know how to determine if break-in between rings and walls is already finished :/ It has minimal blowby on oil cap at operating temperature (90*C) and it emits blue smoke after cold start if i push the rpm to 2000ish which spools up the turbo a bit. The smokes dissapear when it reaches 70 degree celcius. The oil loss is incalculable low for the last 350kms. Are these the signs of it haven't broken fully yet? Should switching from fully synthetic to mineral oil at this 400kms after rebuilding stage helps to seal the rings? Lot of people advise mineral oil after rebuilt but some advise synthetic on turbodiesels. My engine is not a modern one and the car's model is 2005. I want to break it in as healthy as possible and don't want to get the engine bored and re-ringed because of compression and oil loss and doing the all over again because of the wrong oil choice. I'll be waiting for your precious answer, much thanks for taking your time :)

[@gencoozcakrlar8060]

Same bro ive been wondering about this too

[@jrebuilds2]

Hello, Im trying to break in my new pistons and new piston rings on my Audi A4. Should I use conventional oil even though it has a turbo? I have the 2011 CAEB Engine. TIA

[@sashadrain6369]

Before i even broke the engine in (roughly 20km on the clock) on my gsxr600 it had a full system and tune which had to have the throttle bodies and idle set by letting it idle till the fans came on ×2 after that it has been riden between 4k and 10k rpm up and down through the rev range, how will that be for seating in the rings?

[@wwcrxww]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

[@gothicpagan.666]

Final set up can not be done untill a few 2000 miles have been covered. After roughly this point, no further set up changes should be needed to ignition timming, or if your on carbs, jet changes. Always remember that as an engine beds down, it will require less ignition advance and less fuel. Always a problem on a race unit, as the distance coverered in a 10-12 lapper is not that great so slight tweaking is required after every meeting.

[@magnusdanielsson2749]

Would this bevtrue for a flat tappet cammed engine aswell? The camshaft manufacturers say to use a brake in oil with high amounts of zddp. Its also recommended to keep using oil with zddp after brake in. Seem to be some confusion around these oils and synthetic oils though..

[@joshuabenson2568]

what about oil viscosity? Is it better to use a 10W-50 or 5W-30 to break-in? I'd place my bet on the thinner but I could be wrong. Could someone help me out?

[@Tomyp89]

You may forgot about heat cycling. Bearing caps and shells will expand and shrink. During test assembly they go apart little bit better than after a teardown. I hear offten the modular/progressive method. 100/500/2000 km , mineral/ semi/full synthetic oil. During this method you add more and more load. Did my enginie that way. Even compression, little blowby and oil consumption .

[@bobking7347]

What exact brand of oil do you recommend for engine break in

[@kylewick2818]

So, just a bit of a question, I finished building a g13b sohc 16v, honed and installed new piston rings, and blah blah blah I cant find a "break in oil" at any of my local shops so I've done some research and what I found was that, typically break in oils consist of a sae 30 or 40 oil with higher zddp content, since I cant find one premade I've bought 3 L's of sae 30 and hyper-Lube ZDDP additive, the bottle says add 1 bottle for ever 5 L's since I'm using 3 L's I'll add half the bottle, so basically I'm making my own "break in oil" by mixing 3 L's of sae 30 and .5 L of ZDDP, will this be a suitable "break in oil" mixture for my ring/wall break in procedure?!

[@Kanti12311]

I just bought my new 2018 Honda CR-V and I have drive home on the highway which is 80mph for around 45 miles. Should I be worry? I have put in over 1000 miles now.

[@juandelacruz5247]

MC garage did an actual testing of hard vs gentle break-in, and it shows that there isn't much difference. As many pointed out, the break-in period came from practice before the modern tech as metal works used to be not as precise as they are right now. Second, the break-in is for safety of the rider who needs to learn how to properly ride his new bike. Others contend too, that the break-in thing is for manufacturers to save from warranty claims.

[@overboostedrb20]

so is it ok to idle it in order to bleed the coling system then start driving it? the way i read these videos is right after the first start on a cold engine start driving do not let it idle for even 3 min

[@JWorldAdventures]

What do you guys would recommend in terms of mileage/usage before first oil change following after the run in procedure?

[@justadriver]

25km first oil change drain oil than second oil change after 500km

[@kostyantynrybchuk3298]

What would be the break in oil choice for engine like FA20, where 0W-20 is normal running oil?

[@carmelo0063]

I think I'm late to the party BUT after how many KM should one change their oil after engine being rebuilt

[@turbotrana]

I did an engine in my younger years (20+ years ago) with Mobil 1 synthetic . The rings never did seal that well, always alot of blowby. The following engine I used running in oil and aggressive initial run for several hundred km and clearly had less blowby.

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

Actually you just reminded me of the one break in failure In did have (again many decades ago). A Holden six (192 or 206 can't remember built so many). Used Penrite breaking in oil for something like 20 minutes dropped the oil and filter and put 30 weight Penrite in it. Car ran constantly hot even with a brand new 4 core Chevy radiator in it. Eventually pulled it down many miles later to find the block still had a significant cross hatching in the bore. Last time I used Penrite breaking in oil or Penrite in general.

[@setha360]

Your mistake was a new engine needs non detergent breakin oil so the rings seat, on older non roller camshaft run engine at start up at 2000 rpm to polish camshaft lifters with crank splash oil.

[@Stewbob112]

I have a question that I’d love your help with regarding the break-in period. I just bought a brand new 2019 Subaru WRX STI Limited. The only problem is that I bought it at a dealership 130km away from my house, and most of the drive back is via highways. So, I’ll be struggling to alternate the loads on the engine. Will I be fine doing this? Should I try to alternate loads as best as possible while driving on the highways? Or should I REALLY look for alternate routes that aren’t on the highway? It’s making me nervous to be quite honest.

[@filiplaskovski9993]

How’d you go mate it’s been a while how’s ur engine ?

[@DoubleRRHonda]

@@filiplaskovski9993 I bought a brand new Nissan Versa with a manual transmission. 200 mile trip on the interstate from the dealer back home. No issues. Have changed the oil at 1200 miles and again at 5000. Doesn’t burn a drop.

[@statue999]

What about rotary engines?

[@Artec12]

Amazing video! Is fast highway driving considered moderate load for break in?

[@hpa101]

Not really. You can drive at high speed with little actual throttle and hence load on the engine. You still need to modulate the load and generally this involves periods of moderate acceleration followed by periods of over run.

[@gordowg1wg145]

Agreed, steady engine rpm and load can be detrimental as wear patterns will develop to match that specific circumstance - as Andre said, changing loads with over-run and changing the rpm by changing speed and/or gears, will definitely help. Avoid initial high rpm, especially under heavy load, as one of the things one really wants to avoid is ring/bore scuffing as that is a leading cause of later wear/blowby/oil consumption issues.

[@theungoliant9410]

What about flat tappet cam break in?

[@sammiecaisley]

Very controversial topic. I build VW engines for Formula Vee’s and suggest that my engines are run in quickly on a mineral oil. Usually it’s 3 laps, spanner check and then go for it. Today I will be running a new motor at Barbagallo raceway in Perth. It will be run in during qualifying and raced there after.

[@hpa101]

I think many people who favour the 'run it gentle for 1500 miles' theory miss the point that many race engines don't even achieve that sort of mileage before they're rebuilt!

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

Agree it is definitely horses for courses. We used to rebuild our blown big block drag car after ever meeting or two, and it would get fired up checked for oil pressure, get it up to temp, few revs, have a quick listen, and shut down to go into the car trailer to be raced. Would be lucky to do 10 miles before being pulled apart inspected or repaired.

[@Skirk84]

@@DodgyBrothersEngineering Us street guys can't afford to do that. Both my engine builds have taken 3 years each, and the last thing I want to do is build another engine. I want 0 blowby and full compression for 200,000km's. My first build reached 280,000km's and still held its original compression and I never had any oil enter the catch can. Hopefully my new engine lasts just as long! Building is a nightmare

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

@@Skirk84 Talking strictly race engines. Like you for street engines I want maximum mileage with no blow by. So street engines are a whole different kettle of fish. I don't believe in babying the engine, but I do like to give it time for a thorough break in before it ever sees redline. Any engine I have ever seen just go for it blow smoke after a short time, that's not for me.

[@Skirk84]

@@DodgyBrothersEngineering yeah i agree with that. You cant baby it it needs to be loaded up to out the rings in their place. But doesnt mean you need to thrash it or hit limiter

[@k4iman]

Hi, I am currently rebuilding my RB25det NEO into "OEM plus specs", using OEM NEO pistons and rods and brand new rings and such, refresh the head as well as change to all new seals. Is this break in method suitable for my engine, since it's an engine from the late 90s?

[@wyattmendez5051]

I would like to know how this went for you as I’m in the stage of doing the same with forged pistons in my rb25neo

[@wyattmendez5051]

I would like to know how this went for you as I’m building a rb25neo with forged pistons

[@mikaelgaiason688]

All sound advice. I use dino oil for break in, there's already assembly lube in there from putting it together. Idle long enough for fan to cycle twice, then slowly start revving. Gently up to just above idle and close throttle, then slowly work it up just a little higher each time up to about halfway to redline. Then switch to snapping the throttle, staying under halfway to redline. (Bikes, I have to get the ecu measuring the nasty American fuel I put in it.) Then I gently ride to just outside town and thrash the shit out of it to make sure everything went right. Whole time you're watching temps and the exhaust, and there's so many little things. We've all got our superstitions lol, my personal ritual costs me about 5 or 6 tenths of an hour, not including the actual ride/flush/check.

[@YZFoFittie]

Lots of problems with what you described...

[@mikaelgaiason688]

@@YZFoFittie By all means, tell me how shit of a tech I am and how 4 different manufacturers were wrong when they gave me my master cert. Giving a quick and dirty run down on the basics of what my procedure is wasn't an invitation for your judgement. My judgement comes from my customers. FYI one of my customers competes at the national level professionally and I handle pre season builds. I've had one engine grenade before I expected it, but it was a single session qualifying build. Hoped for 15 laps and got 12. Ooops. Some day I'll get the approval of the yt comment section but apparently not today. Darn.

[@YZFoFittie]

Revving without load wastes time and time is limited to seal the rings. Just because a motor doesn't blow up, doesn't mean anything is optimal. Your butthurt speaks magnitudes about your lack of self confidence...

[@mikaelgaiason688]

@@YZFoFittie lol you can say I'm butthurt all you want but it doesn't mean I am. You were going to walk through the correct way weren't you? I really need to know exactly what I'm doing wrong. I'll write it down and take it to this years refresher courses. The whole world needs to know we finally found the super awesome mega tech that figured out the right way. Please hurry. My service manager wants to see what you have to teach before EOD in about 3 hours. My laptop sits open and on all day so I'll see the notification pretty quick.

[@chriscs9080]

is semi - synthetic ok?

[@nissejarnet]

I have always broken in my engines with fully synthetic oils, never had blow-by or other related issues.

[@hpa101]

Fortunately with modern ring materials and honing techniques, you're much less likely to have trouble. That being said, a full synthetic oil introduces an unnecessary risk with absolutely zero advantages so we stick to mineral based oils.

[@nissejarnet]

High Performance Academy Thanks for the replay :) This goes back to 2006 for me. One other thing I thought about, if mineral oils have noticeable worse "friction protection" wouldn't a engine run only on mineral be worn out pretty quickly?

[@hpa101]

We're not advocating that you should run your engine only on a mineral based oil. After the break-in process we do move to a full synthetic oil for added protection. The mineral based oil is only used for break-in where the engine isn't under heavy sustained load and doesn't require the advantages of a full synthetic.

[@nissejarnet]

High Performance Academy Yeah I know, it's just that if you can see a difference in wear during the short break in period between mineral and synthetic, how big would the difference be after 100 000km for example? Feels like the wear would be severe? If you understand what I mean, my English is not the best :)

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

nissejarnet once upon a time you could only buy straight mineral oils (or very close to it). If you broke in an engine with fully synthetic oil, and it broke in properly you got extremely lucky. The honing pattern doesn't come off in the first five minutes and it takes a lot of miles before it disappears completely. What HPA is saying is it is crucial to not use slippery oil to prevents that initial bite of the rings on the fresh bore, otherwise you can pull an engine apart many miles later and it still have the honing pattern present. Just trying to think of an example where the wear in the initial stages is moderate, but once the bedding process has taken place the wear is significantly reduced, but it eludes me. It is for that reason that the mineral oil beds rings in better but still has the longevity for hundreds of thousands of miles. Fully synthetic oil holds up better to extreme usage like drag racing and doesn't break down as much, it doesn't necessarily provide more longevity in a normally day to day putting to the shops driver over a good quality mineral oil. Ok I think I've got it. Think of a piece of wet and dry sandpaper and rub a piece of flat metal against it. Without water the paper will wear out quicker and the surface of the metal will quickly conform to the paper and flatten the metal, once the paper has worn the rate at which it removes metal from the flat metal piece decreases significantly. If you use water on the wet and dry and do the same thing, the metal will get more of a polish and take much longer to get flat or may not even get flat at all if the paper wears out before the metal becomes flat. That is what the rings and bores are doing.

[@jamesmcintosh9868]

Hey Andre, thanks for this. Is this answer still relevant or have you developed some better ideas since 2018? Thanks James.

[@hpa101]

Still relevant 🤘

[@jamesmcintosh9868]

@@hpa101 Your the man. Thanks mate.

[@glennvandenberg3912]

There are alot of "opinions" about how to break in a 2 stroke dirt bike properly also. Do the same principals apply in a 2 stroke with regards to using a mineral oil in the fuel or a synthetic or a castor based oil?

[@hpa101]

I'm sorry but I've had zero experience with 2 stroke engines so can't speak from experience here. On face value though the break in process is still primarily centred around bedding the ring against the bore so I see no reason to vary the technique.

[@sti-uk9033]

I have rebuilt plenty of 2 stroke Sea-Doo's. I will vary throttle a lot with the odd blip up to max revs without holding it for the first tank of fuel at 50:1. After the first tank is used i revert to 40:1 and ride it like it should. Works fine for me

[@hojnikb]

What about small 2 stroke engines? Does same logic apply here as well?

[@finnfinn6450]

It does exactly, be careful not to lug the engine, watch the heat and also use mineral 2 stroke instead of fully synthetic.

[@throbbybobby7893]

Hey Andre, thank you for the info. Will be getting a new '23 BRZ in a couple of months so this will definitely come in handy. A few quick questions, by moderate loads, what % throttle are you usually using, 75%? And at what point do you go WOT? After 100-200km's? Thank you so much.

[@busterscrugs]

Full throttle right out of the dealer lot. Make sure the engine is at operating temp though.

[@yaseengaffoor]

I actually wanted that to be a Harry Potter T-Shirt 🤣

[@hpa101]

As close as we could legally get 😂 - Taz

[@hisaanhaq4116]

Do you recommend this for a new motorcycle gsxr 1000 in my situation

[@hpa101]

Motorcycles can be a bit different when it comes to wet clutches etc as there are some oils they don't like. With that in mind this advice does not consider motorcycle engines with a wet clutch system sorry - Taz.

[@eb972]

Or 10w40/0w40. Most w40 have no added friction modifiers. It’s will not say “energy efficient” or “ Energy conserving” on the back circle like most other car oil weights. We break in most motocross engines with 10w40 the switch to synthetic. Just my 2 cents.

[@BlueonGoldZ]

I'm really skeptical of this roughly 186-200 mile/km full break-in period. I've been told by engine builders that to a certain extent, the finer levels of break-in regarding the fine polishing of the rings to cylinder walls can go all the way up to 3,000 miles. Almost everyone here uses the 1,000 to 1,200 mile break-in period limited to 4,500-5,000 rpm with varying load.

[@24isthebestracecar]

What about A racing engine for ovals ofc open track isn't all the time and driving slow on a track when all others are wide open is dangerous

[@austindoud273]

20 psi redline 250°f water temp duh

[@raeleenmandy6359]

Can you break in the engine ,while idles

[@hpa101]

Hey there Raeleen, no, you need to run it through its operating range - Taz.

[@hondatrix]

I agree...all these fancy methods with long idling and keeping at a constant rpm is BS

[@AlexRib]

hondatrix nobody says to keep the engine at constant rpms, even car manufacturers say that you shouldn't do many highway miles while on break in, vecause of not varying load and constant rpm

[@hondatrix]

Alex Rib, many do NOT say to fluctuate the revs, most just list a maximum rpm that you should not exceed.

[@allancnc]

Problem is always to explain to others why they should do like this, and not what the manual of their new bike says?

[@user-ic1pm6uo7w]

no factory manual will ever say to not "baby" it during break in.. #1 - liability, #2 - being too aggressive when its not warmed up and spinning a bearing or something of that nature

[@mohammadkazemi979]

Hi how can I contact you ?

[@hpa101]

For specific technical questions you can post up on the members only forum here: www.hpacademy.com/forum For anything that's not a specific technical question I can help you via [e-mail] :) - Taz.

[@RodJeez]

1:45 what is so bad about idling it? Its not really working the car so i dont understand why its so bad

[@hpa101]

If you don't bed (aka seat) the rings correctly they will not seal correctly. If rings aren't sealing they're not doing their job and you will get all the problems that come with that issue - Taz.

[@RodJeez]

@hpa101 right but let's say I run it on idle for 30 minutes but then drive 2 hours, how would the idle time affect the seating process?

[@kemosabe8313]

Good video. But I've got a question. I see this happen to a lot of friends. New engine they put about 500 miles on it shortly after they spin a bearing.. Why do new engines spin bearings so easy??

[@RotaryTurbo]

If you're spinning bearings quickly, you don't have your tolerances in check. You can't just throw an engine together and expect it to work under high loads, engine blueprinting is a requirement for longevity. Also, I've heard of this happening when using the wrong parts. A friend of my brother built a front wheel drive 3800 supercharged engine and used a non-supercharged flex plate and balancer. The supercharged and non-supercharged cars use different cranks, one is internally balanced and one is external. Harmonics spun the bearing in a matter of miles.

[@hpa101]

This will have nothing to do with the break in process. It's a common belief that we're 'running in' the bearings but the reality is that there should be no metal to metal contact between the crank and bearings, and if there is, no amount of gentle running will help. I'd say if your friends are spinning bearings then they either have clearance issues, insufficient crush on the bearing shells, or they're suffering oil starvation.

[@motocomconteudo497]

Man ... are you Australian? LOL.. just kidding! Great Vid mate! Cheers from Brazil! ;)

[@hpa101]

haha, yes thank you and greetings to you there in Argentina! (same same right?) Only joking too 🤣 Glad you're enjoying the content there in Brazil and cheers for the comment dude! - Taz.

[@anonymike8280]

Also, an area where there probably is a lot of disagreement.

[@yobabysup2308]

any advice on running in a Telsa?

[@nattsojaqs9822]

Yeah. Run it into the trench. 👍😁

[@twrcrew8852]

the gears are already broken in from the factory. There is no blow by, no seating, no ICE process at all to worry about. just self contained lube and gearing spinning around with the release of electrons.

[@xxx32coupe]

flat tappet camshafts?

[@gordowg1wg145]

I assume you mean as used in a pushrod, especially "V" engine? They use oil splash and so usually need the initial rpm to be high enough to splash plenty of oil around the bottom end - that, with generous* helpings of GOOD cam' lube (I've also used Moly' type engine assembly/anti-scuff pastes successfully) should work well enough. If you have a 'healthy' camshaft with a lot of lift and dual (or triple) valve springs with higher seat and over-the-nose poundage, it is a good idea to run in the cam' with lower rpm and a single spring from the set - means a bit of shaggin' around refitting them, but better than wiping out a lobe. With OHC or DOHC engines that use flat followers, they are usually pressure fed so there isn't the need for keeping the rpm up, but still good practice to lubricate them on assembly - *Heck, I use the ASP everywhere in the valve train on pushrod engines, just because initial oiling is negligible in many engines.

[@hpa101]

Yes a pushrod V8 engine with flat tappet lifters does require some specific care and you'll normally find some instructions from your cam manufacturer that detail the requirements. In most performance applications you're going to probably want to consider a mover to a roller lifter though anyway.

[@austindoud273]

Don't and retrofit a roller

[@gordowg1wg145]

Depends on application, not just V8 engines use them, so they may not be available - heck, almost all OHV engines I can think of use a form of 'flat tappet' follower (I know the LandRover 2 1/4 litre 4 cylinder petrol engine used a roller in OEM form, and I'm sure there will be some others) - or there may be some regulation that requires their use. Could be budget constraints.

[@DylanL69]

Doesn't breaking in the engine also harden all the metal surfaces like the cam isn't that why they use zinc in the "break in" oils

[@ucakpan]

About the zinc matter, have you read 540 Rat's blog: 540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

[@kelvinleong915]

Some one ask me use break in engine oil

[@hpa101]

Have a watch of this Kelvin, it goes into a bit more depth: www.hpacademy.com/blog/how-to-break-in-your-engine-engine-break-in/? - Taz.

[@kelvinleong915]

@@hpa101 thank sir

[@kelvinleong915]

@@hpa101 I should use runing oil Penrite 15/40

[@twrcrew8852]

Ok, so what about bleeding the new coolant or setting up the idle and teething issues with a brand new forged motor??? Doesn't this inescapable process "RUIN" that precious window you have?? since you need to be idling for possibly a few hours ANYWAY???? How do you put your coolant in and get rid of all the air without running the engine??? How do you set up your standalone and get the ignition timing, injector dwell time, base tune??? This makes no sense!!! You CAN'T just drive it under load when everything is BRAND NEW AND NOT SET UP... WTF???

[@SouthlandFlyer]

This is why you try avoid everything being new at the same time. Some people will throw factory injectors ecu etc in for a run in, some if they have access to a comparable tune will run that. Fortunately you are probably not the first person building a similar engine, so you spend a good amount of time building the base map before you even try to start it up. Some engines you can bleed without running the engine, certainly well enough to take it for a run-in drive, then bleed again afterwards. Im not sure why you think you need to idle the engine for a couple of hours.

[@ryanwells5035]

It seems alot of ppl didn't like hearing this, lol 3 years and only 1200 likes..

[@29394D97]

But if the manufacturer reccomends 1500km break in period then surely I would follow that guidance since they are afterall not wanting people to return engines with issues because that would cost them money and bad reputation. I would rather follow manufacture, who builds millions of engines, specs than some mechanic that builds a couple thousand engines in his/her lifetime.

[@hpa101]

Let's just be clear that the manufacturer's recommendations are unlikely to result in an engine that falls to pieces or burns oil so following their recommendations isn't going to necessarily be bad. A lot of this however is thanks to modern ring materials and honing techniques which makes it much harder to mess up engine break in. Also note that we're not recommending banging it off the limiter on your very first drive. It's all about a methodical and logical approach to the break in process. The difference between an engine that's run in as described and one that's never been above 3000 rpm for the first 1500 miles is that you're likely to see more power and lower oil consumption with an engine broken in as we describe. Of course you're free to do as you please.

[@gordowg1wg145]

As Andre said, they are basically covering their asses in case of warranty issues - and some modern ECUs will log 'abuse', so be careful. Two points, though, the first is that some of these companies consider the vehicle to have a very limited service life, anyway, with poor service/parts support after they are superceeded and, two, some of them have "sealed" major components, which mean any fluid changes are impossible. heck, many don't even have a manual level check with the owner dependent on electronics monitoring them... and we all know how reliable they can be. Heck BMW that not only claimed their M3 Getrac manual gearbox was 'sealed for life', but had Getrac specifically make it physically impossible for the drain plug, normally used in the gearbox, to be removed.

[@ianmurray3820]

I agree with all of the above, but the re- built motors are completely different to box fresh cars and motorcycles, brand new engines I think are pretty much already broken in as far as cylinders and rings are concerned, when nowadays the motors are ran up o dyno's and more or less maxed out anyway, , personally on new vehicles I worry more about friction and heat cycles on gear boxes, thrust bearing surfaces etc, machining debris foating around!? .. which I found in an oil fiter once, all good reasons to take it easy for a while, just to make sure the things igonna stay together, If you stick to varying r.p.m, load and keep one eye on the temeratures , after a couple of early oil changes you should be good to go...........Works for me!!!!

[@liviu2004]

For how much it took me to clean the oil pan of burned mineral oil, now I have to put mineral break-in again, for break in? Common ...

[@NightKidBrandon]

Does this apply to boxers lol

[@hpa101]

Yes =) All the same, you just need to tilt your head sideways more often - Taz.

[@NightKidBrandon]

@@hpa101 do you recommend break in oil for brand new car. Research says factory oil is 25% synthetic. Also, when should first oil change be on new car after breaking in

[@tthams73]

Synthetic oil isn’t any “slipperier” than conventional oil. Your statement is 100% FALSE. Synthetic oils have higher shear strength which is why you can safely extend oil change intervals with a synthetic oil.