Leffen's 2020 Melee Tier List

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

Leffen: "Roy really struggles against Jiggs and Peach, but G&W has surprisingly strong matchups against them." We've found it, boys. The perfect dual main combination.

[@Pslamist]

I'm sayin'.

[@GalliwYGO]

I’ve faced some solid G&Ws and Roys on slippi.

[@romannoodles5856]

Marth is literally BETTER than the best of both worlds

[@petrapine4995]

Link YLink is a nice combo

[@AlexRoseGames]

@@romannoodles5856 haters just haven't seen the true power of roy

[@adeptproperty27]

Ive always Liked big Leff, but with his newer positive outlook he's had recently, I've enjoyed his content so much more!

[@jessdang3r]

never watch him stream tekken then

[@Dami-ey2mu]

@@jessdang3r alot of toxic people on Tekken so I don't blame leffen

[@paperbags1924]

He’s growing up (:

[@jsmithers.]

Gayyyyy

[@samhusted627]

Yeah, huge redemption arc

[@defaultoandores626]

''We always say hi youtube but youtube never says hi'' -Owligarch Damn, that hits hard.

[@thebigdug]

hi chat FeelsGoodMan

[@leandro6285]

i paused the video and read your comment. then when i looked up at the paused frame it was exactly that chatter at the bottom.

[@hunterfizel5013]

Hi Twitch PogU

[@AlexRoseGames]

Hi Twitch!

[@oliviawallace3636]

hi twitch

[@degenmelee1040]

The fact that there are still so many legitimate arguments for different character placements after 20 YEARS blows my mind.

[@deadplock]

Tierlists are a myth.

[@TheSpoonman00]

But one thing is for sure - Bowser sucks.

[@selvyucro]

@@TheSpoonman00 and Fox is a God

[@Kattist]

@@deadplock I wouldn't say that. They're more of a suggestion.

[@billwoods7578]

Well ya tier lists are never going to be an objective thing in any game. The time that the game last isn't as relevant as you think.

[@danieljarvis5775]

For some reason, whenever a smasher puts an ad in the video, I’m always really pumped for them. Get yo schmoney big leff

[@pedlar6839]

Meta

[@Matthew.Morcos]

Still skips ad

[@Matthew.Morcos]

@TUME 1 That isn't true. Advertiser's don't pay at all if you skip the ad unlees you watch more than 30 seconds. It's a fucked system.

[@krystof5271]

@@Matthew.Morcos most ads are shorter than 30 seconds though

[@Matthew.Morcos]

@@krystof5271 In that case it is to completion

[@MonkeySharkPro]

Seeing an optimized Mewtwo would be a dream

[@Rarest26]

Exactly, because it won’t happen

[@blue_musicals]

Leffen is

[@blue_musicals]

Kind of

[@rektyrektingson4668]

@Ryan Lockwood does Taj compete in tourneys prior to COVID?

[@h3ck774]

I mean best case scenario you have a m2 version of shrooms doc. But imagine a optimized Luigi or Mario. Shroomed took doc to top10 and now he and other top players actually think Mario is better and there is so much shroomed didn’t do

[@McDunzo]

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters. My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk. Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf. Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

[@jeffreycanfield1939]

Please tell me this is a copypasta

[@McDunzo]

@@jeffreycanfield1939 its an old gamefaqs copypasta from 2008

[@jeffreycanfield1939]

@@McDunzo I figured lol, wasnt sure cause of your pfp

[@mynameisrandy]

@@jeffreycanfield1939 This is the GOAT Melee copypasta

[@ismaelelizondo9952]

Stfu

[@cfalcon8342]

So I have never played a single Kingdom Hearts game myself, but my best friend played all of them. She was so excited when KH3 came out, she was extatic for months, and later cried and vented to me about the ending. I really tried to read into it, learn about the plot of KH so we could have some more things to talk about, well, I figured out that understanding KH lore is quite a daunting task. I still don’t know everything, but i know barely enough to get the rough idea of it. Well, a few months later, in august, my friend passed away from her leukemia at 15 after 3 years of fighting. it was a small funeral, with many beautiful blue flowers, we were handed a schedule of the ceremony. The first song to play was one that she had chosen herself. “Don’t think twice” by Hikaru Utada. I had never heard it before then, i only knew Dearly beloved, but now i can only think of her when I listen to this song. I miss you Elina. 2004-2019.

[@lavellelee5734]

Not sure if you'll see this or not but im sorry to hear that about your friend. Hopefully she's chilling in the afterlife with her favorite kh songs

[@cfalcon8342]

@@lavellelee5734 thank you

[@konakami7066]

So basically Practically (at a tournament, including stress and outside factors along with time needed to practice) = Jiggs Optimally (if everyone was good at every character) = Marth On paper (adding up matchup scores, ignoring outside factors) = Fox This is why its so hard to find a best character, since theres the human aspect to a tier list that isnt just what is humanly possible, but what is needed to play these characters.

[@PurpleZebras150]

Yup, this is a perfect summary. I've always struggled placing those three on a tier list too and this summaries it perfectly. IMO it's Marth, Fox, Puff though if I were to organize them from best to least best as far as human capacity on a tournament level goes (even considering Fox being harder to play in tournament settings, I think people are good enough at him at this point that it doesn't matter that much).

[@simongotborg3866]

"If everyone was good at every character = Marth" Not sure how you reached that conclution. The claims that Marth beats Fox/Falco and goes even with Puff is arguable (Leffen even said so in the video) and even if he doesn't lose to them, he has a harder time outside the top 3 (Sheik, CF, Falcon, Pikachu). In the top 3 there seems to be cases saying Fox beats Puff, Puff beats Marth and Marth beats Fox. I think peoples oppinions on those matchups will determine who they put as #1.

[@konakami7066]

@@simongotborg3866 i just say it because i believe that since he is arguably the only.character without a losing matchup (which i think is true) he would be the best character to solo main if all the characters were as commonly played as eachother

[@Forthelemon]

​@@konakami7066 I think the argument is partly that yeah, he has no losing matchups, but his winning matchups aren't nearly as strong as Fox and especially Puff's. Fox and Puff have several characters they basically invalidate and never have to worry about, whereas Marth doesn't really have that. Not having to worry about certain characters is huge for consistency.

[@konakami7066]

@@Forthelemon yes, i agree with you, this is why i put him as the best character when played optimally, since if he is playing at his best, he doesnt have to worry about a bad matchup. When the game is solved, marth will be the most played character

[@Pslamist]

Yo, Roy mains... We're finally above bottom 4.🔥

[@ITSMRFOXY]

Yoooooo

[@Pslamist]

YOOOOOOOOOOO

[@patoa3481]

POOOOOG

[@Mepphy99]

Considering how broken (dude wft are those hitbox placement) Roy Is that's strange

[@jasonduhela9597]

I laughed at this comment and it’s thread way too hard😂

[@fortune500b]

How is a tier list for a 19 year old game still this interesting and unknown. Just unreal

[@swank8508]

probably the deepest multiplayer game out there, besides the old ones like chess and go. ocarina of time gives it a run for its money, but sadly its singleplayer

[@sigurdtheblue]

@@swank8508 Ocarina of Time is not as deep as an ambitious fighting game, but yes it has probably the most amazing glitches of any game.

[@sigurdtheblue]

Also, I think this tier list is interesting because people don't explore characters enough or discuss them enough. If the community was more social, or at least able to put things into words and collaborate, then maybe a video of this quality could be made earlier. Leffen is speaking from a very large amount of experience, so yeah it is very cool.

[@luisalpjax3929]

@@sigurdtheblue league of legends

[@dr_meth]

Mewtwo's placement is really interesting. We might need an aMsa/Axe for him.

[@dchizzzle]

we got taj

[@guyfauks2576]

Mewtwo gets completly destroyed by marth and sheik so hard. And even against spacies all he has is chaingrabs

[@dr_meth]

@@guyfauks2576 I agree. I would say Peach is a really bad matchup as well.

[@Jfoltz39]

Guy Fauks Marth is Taj’s favorite matchup

[@Pslamist]

Check Syrox's M2 out!

[@Popmycherryyo]

"Mains usually downplay their main, I'm not gonna do that" kind of does that :P

[@dooterscoots2901]

He did the opposite with sheik too, saying she was more interesting then she was.

[@Xohslol]

Leffen is far and away the biggest main denier. Armada was up there as well, but holy smokes.

[@ARMTOAST]

"Boswer, Zelda...you never play these characters for a long time unless you're an idiot" look I disagree in theory but in practice he has a point. all notable bowser and zelda mains are knuckle dragging delinquents other than drephen

[@WingBlade81]

That's a strong statement sir. You ain't wrong though.

[@guyfauks2576]

@@WingBlade81 wait did djnintendo do something shady?

[@dal4268]

Guy Fauks yup

[@caasinom8008]

I really wish drephen won as Zelda versus that ICs player, I will never not bring this up

[@spinyjr]

@@dal4268 link?

[@sharsasuke01]

Character: **exists** Leffen: "Yea, i've won tournaments with him."

[@blakebanegas2049]

Am I the only one that’s kind of tripping out that swag bucks is even still a thing?

[@ethanurvilan]

how was your experience with it if any?

[@stealthxg5045]

@@ethanurvilan I used to use swag bucks years ago, tried it again years later and I can say that they made it more difficult to earn points. Not really worth the time now imo.

[@olie567]

Anyone else going crazy that jobs exist? Like you work and get money?

[@IAm-zo1bo]

@@olie567 whaaat thats still a thing?

[@ethanharmon1228]

I was shocked lmao. i havent used it in years

[@AverageHandle_]

Melee is only considered unbalanced because the bad characters are awful

[@IIIISai]

the bad characters in brawl are awful

[@guyfauks2576]

@@IIIISai if not even worse

[@mvjbass9561]

They are bad but the massive gaps between skill levels are more impactful than character balance.

[@legendarylitening]

@@IIIISai No one gives a fuck about brawl. Bit of Bass, that isn't an excuse. The game is still horribly balanced any way you choose to spin it

[@guyfauks2576]

@@legendarylitening what the fuck is he spinning? He said brawl had horrible characters which is a fact

[@croixfadas]

The last tier is just the top 5 players characters. 1.Hbox 2.Zain 3.Leffen 4.Mango 5.Plup

[@pedlar6839]

I think he’s just nerfing spacies on the realistic tech skill inconsistency in tournaments, along with how badly they get punished for it.

[@dad4436]

then it would be jigglypuff, fox, falco, pikachu and falcon

[@CrimsoniteSP]

I feel like most people look at Melee and say we only have like 2-3 "viable" characters, but it's mostly because Melee takes a lot of work to get good. It just happens to be easier to get good with top tiers because they are more broken good than broken bad, but once you know how the game works, there's really no end to your learning.

[@sdw-hv5ko]

Half the characters are tournament viable and arguably another 6-8 of them have the potential to be if they were labbed enough. Melee is actually super balanced, especially for a 20-year-old, unpatched game

[@Ninjaananas]

@@sdw-hv5ko Melee is not balanced. Not even for a Smash game.

[@sdw-hv5ko]

@@Ninjaananas sick counterargument great discussion

[@Ninjaananas]

@@sdw-hv5ko I know. It took only an antithesis to silence to opponent.

[@rakkatytam]

Got to take into account that the melee community seems to gravitate to what is cool looking, meaning a smaller pool of people to optimize "uncool" characters. Hence falcon, fox, falco* making up an overwhelming majority of the player base

[@SeanTAochi1]

that podcast idea where you discuss the tier list specifically with the top three sounds like such a good watch not gonna lie

[@AniKhang]

Is the podcast still going to be a thing or was it a one hit wonder?

[@DanKatto]

I loved that podcast man

[@slump9374]

Only happens when theres something to talk about

[@raihanislam912]

Well he jokingly said a place opened up on Twitter so I'm guessing that it will still happen

[@thecyuber558]

i wish slippi had a feature where you could filter through characters, so if you wanted to play only puffs, you could do that, and if you only wanted to play against sheiks marths and yoshis you could do that as well

[@127marq]

playing lowtiers on unranked is fun until you play someone who know the match up so you just go to your main.

[@IAm-zo1bo]

nad still get ass whooped cuz i dont play for few days and already forget how to play

[@kickitsmooth]

I've had many low tiers quit out on me first stock because I know the match up.

[@jakezepeda1267]

Most of the time when I play Link people leave right when they see him or right after they kill me the first time.

[@mattcupp8506]

@@jakezepeda1267 I have this exact issue with my Zelda. Very frustrating.

[@jakezepeda1267]

@@mattcupp8506 I don't get on too often but ill 100% play you sometime if you want.

[@jmonty1595]

3:10 Reminds me of a similar conversation I had with my friend a few years back: "I think Zelda's probably the second worst character." "No way! Her F-air and B-air are great!" "Yeah, but that's two moves. You can't have a character that relies on two moves." "Well, what about Puff?"

[@garfthebased1882]

That’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard zeldas two move suck ass and puffs bair can be applied to anything and they don’t even need rest all the time her fsmash fair utilt like most of her moves are pretty good Zelda has NOTHING but that move

[@Chizypuff]

Playing melee while I listen, look over at chat and see one line "let ya nuts hang" thanks

[@danwolf6307]

"Mewtwo is undoubtedly the hardest to play out of everyone I've ranked so far" Meanwhile, I still can't consistently recover with ness after almost 7 years of playing smash

[@PurpleZebras150]

Get a better controller m8 lmao Those angles are hard to hit on a shitty controller

[@countdooku75]

don't worry, leffen is biased cus he plays M2

[@sycophant8470]

the ics segment made me realize that im actually pro wobbling until we figure out how to deal with planking

[@pedlar6839]

Chango vs fauxhebro man

[@yobobby9]

Terrible take

[@sycophant8470]

@@yobobby9 planking is more cancer than wobbling you are ill

[@kennythekid130]

"Someone needs to optimize Mewtwo" Clearly leffen hasn't been watching Zoma. Zoma is getting nutty with Mewtwo.

[@mvjbass9561]

Puff above Peach, Fox not in his own tier? Your tier list is so bad. I may not play Melee, but I go 1-2 in Smash Ultimate online tournaments and I reckon I know more than someone who has made a living off of being good at Melee.

[@guyfauks2576]

Ok for starters puff ABSOULTELY destroys Peach. Secondly puff has much better matchups against spacies, marth, sheik, and falcon (maybe) than peach does. Puff has an easier and better recovery and better kill power. Also puff is near impossible to combo. As for fox being in his own tier that is very outdated imo. As a secondary yeah fox is fucking amazing, but solo maining fox is suicide. You would have to work 1000 times harder than anybody and lose to some japanese guy who dashbacks and has mr fantastic's arms. Fox has a hilariously explotable (abelit flexable) recovery, bad range, cant camp at all, and gets combo'd haaaarddd.

[@mvjbass9561]

@@guyfauks2576 Aight I was just trolling but chill on the Fox main propaganda lmaoooooo "Fox cant camp at all" looooooooooooooool

[@ladyinwight]

@@guyfauks2576 bro half the illegal stages are illegal because fox is so good at camping did teh spamerer teach you nothing?

[@NoctuaOlivae]

Guy Fauks “you have to work 1000 times harder than anybody” shinespike kills you at 0%. But for real dude if you aren’t trying to pull off crazy tech with fox his combos naturally have a flow and all his attacks save maybe a couple grabs are good to great moves. And if you think his recovery, which is one of the best in the game, is too predictable I would encourage you to try out captain falcon for a while. Fox is objectively the best character, even without his potential waveshine 0-death TAS shit, and by that fact alone he has an easier time than the characters ranked below him. Obviously in the top 4 or so his matchups are debatable, but technically speaking a Ness player has to work way harder than a fox player to find success. How you think solo-maining Fox is suicidal to your career is beyond me, especially when we’re watching a Leffen video, but you could be joking in which case ignore everything I just wrote.

[@guyfauks2576]

@@ladyinwight lol no. What about peach circle camping Or falco lasers Or puff/samus stalling Or the size of the stages Fox with zero knockback lasers is no where as influential and any of the things i listed

[@disc0duck]

"All the bish does is back air." -Leffen

[@jpetrullo6890]

Leffen: *opinion* internet man-children: LEFFEN=EVIL??1?11

[@Ben-eh6tm]

Confirmed

[@itsyaboi1245]

"Smash players sub-human??!??!?11" - Tekken goombas in the yt comments

[@myboy_]

@@itsyaboi1245 lol true. This year I been spendin alot more time in sfv and tekken forums/streams. It's really strange how much most of them hate smash so much. Like just don't play the game, ain't gotta explain to me why it's just a kids party game

[@TheGavinLaver]

@@myboy_ most tekken players aren't too bad but capcom players have always been elitists. They shit talk any fighting game that isn't streetfighter or streetfighter adjacent. Uniclr players are the real homies.

[@constantinekorkousky3363]

@@TheGavinLaver brawlhalla bros

[@DersNoNem]

Is it that hard working while playing game?

[@kingjacko302]

Did I just see a “making the case” reference on a Melee vid? If it was good shit from Leff that series is one of the best pieces of basketball content on KZbin

[@thecclan2]

Leffen’s a basketball guy. Talks about it on stream/twitter sometimes

[@luisrosias6203]

I feel like Leffen defines tier list placement criteria as "how good is this character in tournament play" as opposed to other people's definition of "how good is this character at max level." Otherwise talking about availability of matchup experience, or high execution requirements wouldn't be valid points for his list. I think it's a valid point that the way puff plays varies less than most characters and her slower floatier gameplay lets her often dictate the pace of a match. From that perspective I can buy an argument that puff is the best character to play in tourney. She certainly gets the most total results per amount effort out of any character in the game as well (ICs is better at low/mid level but puff scales really well at all levels). I can't however, at max theoretical level, buy that puff is the best character in the game. I think Fox, Marth, and even Falco have a better argument when their gameplay is pushed to the limit. The theoretical potential of these characters is higher just because they have more options available to them in neutral and puff has clear exploitable flaws in neutral such as being weak to CC, being weak to projectiles and having limited approach options against the best characters.

[@octaviogonzalez8794]

He has a similar opinion on fox with I share. Many arguments for fox being better than puff include the "optimal fox" argument where he's executing everything frame perfectly. But we dont live in the theoretical world, in reality thats just an oversimplification

[@TopOfAllWorlds]

@@octaviogonzalez8794 In my opinion max level doesn't really mean perfect gameplay but perfect humanly possible gameplay.

[@AlexRoseGames]

max level is stupid because it's physically unattainable unless you programmed a darpa robot to play on a b0xx. floaties are at a clear advantage at tournaments because they are so much more consistent. one incorrectly inputted reverse laser on falco and you SD that whole stock spacies you basically start each set with a 1-2 stock defecit because of inevitable human error. jigglypuff effectively gains a free stock every time she does a star KO rest so she basically spawns with 5 stocks since her last stock still has a potential frame 1 instant kill at any time

[@ragnarok3703]

Hey it’s crunch

[@user-vf4oh1pd9t]

TopOfAllWorlds to be fair, a human is physically capable of an insane, unbelievable level of precision. The problem is often consistency more so than anything.

[@marcus7984]

Seeing an optimized Mewtwo would be a dream of mine. Would love a Fox, Puff and Marth video!

[@tedbonnot8910]

its crazy how quickly leffen became just straight up delusional after picking up sheik

[@AwfulPoetry69]

Good to see leff still hasn’t gotten over box bodying him to Twitter all those years back

[@waspoppin4784]

Karl Marx bruh did you write the “sharing is caring” book

[@AwfulPoetry69]

Was Poppin edgy... have you actually read the manifesto?

[@IIIISai]

*Leffen, you don't need to awaken mastered ultra instinct for a tier list, come your hair down*

[@matthewosterman9030]

the dude has perfect hair gene.

[@skewah]

hungrybox is jiren

[@AxiomApe]

As a doc main, I can't help but smile. Big 3 Doc Pika and Samus all together ✌

[@eliasnicolasmiranda4940]

McDonalds is waiting for ya

[@karlfairbanks1574]

Leffen: Makes 50 minutes tier list video Also Leffen: Let me know if you guys want a full video on this LMAO

[@88WearyExile]

Damn, dude, I'd hate to play video games all day for money. Like, imagine waking up, having a coffee, then chillin for a bit, then having breakfast, then at about noon or 1 p.m., playing Smash till 3 or 4 A.M.? Poor guy...

[@snailplshavemykids]

Sounds pretty cool to me

[@cencil6497]

Dude but he has to stream ULTIMATE sometimes are you kidding me?? There's no comparison here, I feel so bad for the guy.

[@leaffinite2001]

"Ive never played a good mewtwo, and damn right, you havent" that made me laugh

[@iruyouijko4934]

I'd rather flip burgers at McDonald's than continue watching this video

[@turtlechamp8325]

I love how u watched some random youtuber who whined about leffen, worshipped what he said from the video like a Karen with facebook, and then watched 10 secs of his latest vid without any prior research of the situation, and act like a toxic 5yr old who just got access to the internet watched 10 secs, and thought to urself, "yeah I'm better than this guy" and came up with a TERRIBLE diss that's about as funny as dieing animals, thinking being a cyberbully is SO COOL

[@iruyouijko4934]

@@turtlechamp8325 how did you know?

[@turtlechamp8325]

@@iruyouijko4934 also I am actually pretty smart believe it or not

[@iruyouijko4934]

@@turtlechamp8325 yes you are

[@turtlechamp8325]

@@iruyouijko4934 thanks :), hope u have a wonderful day, and that you try to make ur own opinion off of this and give the smash (melee) community a chance, we are not really toxic at all compared to others except some ppl when hbox wins, and those are the douchiest ppl in the community, besides that I'd say there's no reason to not join even if ur final opinion is leffen sux, cuz he is not charge, or the entire face of the entire smash (melee) community. Once again have a wonderful day and may God be with you.

[@SchmitzCinemaStudies]

I would like to see a video/discussion on the top 3 characters as it is really hard to rank them. I think everyone agrees that on a "perfect" gameplay level Fox is the best. But since that's not humanly possible we have to judge it on a more human level. And I don't think Marth can be number 1 because of how he struggles a lot more against the characters below him compared to the other 2. And while Puff does have the easiest gameplan they do have to change it up between characters. Hbox plays against aMSa & Zain a lot differently than he does against the top Foxes. He has to respect different options.

[@steelwall4396]

I think the whole #1 character discussion falls apart when you just look at who has succeeded. Obviously puff and Marth have had success, but HBOX is the only one to dominate the international scene with Puff (Mang0 did it a bit before the likes of Armada), and Marth has only enabled a player to achieve top 10 success (Zain) Fox on the other hand has been used as a primary or secondary for a loooong list of players. PPMD is the only top 6 player all-time who didn't find success with Fox in tournament The player pool has chosen him and for a good reason. The only argument I do see is that Marth has no loosing matches and FD against Fox is a big advantage, but over the years FD has become closer to a 50/50 while Dreamland is still a nightmare for Marth against Fox

[@ReallyYoureDenied]

Lmfao go work at McDonald's. Im still waiting. 😅😆

[@shady8045]

u good? edit: i understand the context of this now, i agree but jesus dude get over shit, dont go to someones youtube just to respond to a dumb tweet.

[@123698lol]

butthurt wagie lol

[@thomasgregory3893]

I think that while Puff is arguably the strongest tournament character, that she in my opinion is also clearly fourth on a theoretical level. I think that as the meta progresses fox, falco, Marth, and honestly maybe even sheik can overtake puff.

[@user-rq3tp3bq9l]

So you guys watched memology?

[@Littlekitten_]

Yes but he has a kid fan base so the comments are weak

[@gcell10]

Came from there

[@user-rq3tp3bq9l]

Memology was literally the only reason I know this streamer

[@rd._874]

Yes. Never heard of this botox anime character

[@clippygoat]

Tbh, people finding out Leffen from a Memo vid shows that Leffen’s arrogance is going mainstream. I mean, he is always the bad guy from the Smash Community (despite that title goes to Hungrybox now for having an unbeatable Melee Puff), let alone his saltiness whenever he loses a match. I still respect him for slaying the 5 gods of melee. He just really had a bad take from that tweet he had. But hey, at least he aint a groomer, unlike the rest of the community. If yall hate Leffen so much, search “respect your elders” which is a diss track to Leffen. Its a good banger song, i tell ya.

[@mcfam8657]

I like it when he trusts himself like he forgot or something lol

[@liltwistedgamer]

Seeing Roy in C tier makes me happy.

[@RIStar-ds7wr]

Full podcast on Fox, Marth or Puff is actually a fun idea. However, it would be best if Hbox is on so there can be 3 representatives per each character. But up to you.

[@rhf7071]

my son put roy on the same tier as DK LMAOOOOO

[@owenbritain6677]

Bruh

[@olie567]

Owen Britain bruh what this list is beyond shit

[@amiteea]

RHF Olie how?

[@blui3609]

RHF Olie this list is good. Unless u main roy.

[@blue_musicals]

He said there was a gap between them

[@four-en-tee]

Its only a matter of time before someone picks up Luigi and just starts pushing the character meta. Someone just has to be brave enough to do it.

[@ladyinwight]

tbh i think luigi's meta is already really well explored, he's easily the most popular mid tier and several really good players have played him for a long time. it's possible that a top 10 player could pick up Luigi and take him super seriously and push his meta, but I don't think it would develop anywhere near as much as marth with zain tbh

[@qwposwpo9249]

Luigi has a horrible recovery tho.

[@guyfauks2576]

@@qwposwpo9249 luigi: ya ya (I mean marths is pretty laughable too)

[@derpy6653]

@@ladyinwight theres a lot of room with drop cancels and platform cancels. thats something we havent really seen too much of from luigis yet.

[@MarioPepsiCo]

18:25 I didn't know "Dr. Marth" was in the game...

[@orion2156]

23:53 - 23:58 "You have no shine. You have no sauce, no ranch." - Leffen

[@cupsoup7244]

I’d love a extensive video on best character that’d be sick

[@westide3050]

Leffen has turned from the the villain of smash into the good guy of smash

[@江建国-p9q]

He was the villain we needed but not the one we deserved

[@EzeRyder19]

You should make a Big Mac

[@glutenfreeWMD]

I'm always always always going to give Fox the edge because he is the most common character in the top 100 by far every year. And the 2019 had a more ton of Foxes in the top 20 even though it was a more character diverse year, in terms of top 100 and especially tournament wins.

[@CosmicNoir666]

Go work for McDonald

[@Alex-xz2bz]

After playing more and more I'm starting to see how balanced it is and how there's all sorts of counterplay for almost everything

[@BigNipsOnIce]

Damn leffen lookin good with the hair

[@nakodares5982]

Too long imo but good style and colour

[@mixbag8399]

Imagine what it looks like without the jell making it stand up

[@caasinom8008]

Always has been

[@jpetrullo6890]

Lejun Liao sub goal

[@wieran35000vr]

@@mixbag8399 LOL mango was clowning him at one of the early summits after seeing him with fresh-out-the-shower hair

[@lvndrtwn9079]

Can you give us the McDonalds patch 18.2 tier list? Thanks :)

[@troyowens4528]

Lmao

[@jonathanjoestar275]

loooool

[@CoolbroSwaggins]

happy to see a top player talking about the potential benefits of lesser discussed characters and the viability of some unused mid tiers. an interesting detail i've seen is that Link was pretty common in the 00s. great vid!

[@ichwill7536]

Damn bro really back breaking work uploading this top tier content. So hard to edit a video, and then upload it to youtube after doing the hardest job in the world, being a video game player! I bet your family is so proud of all the adversity you have overcame and how strong you are :)

[@turtlechamp8325]

U know typing this wont do anything right

[@phonehead7776]

Yeah Leffen's a dick, but I think he meant streaming needs a wider skillset and higher competency in those skills than the skills needed by a miniwage-kun

[@turtlechamp8325]

@@phonehead7776 streaming is entertainment so if he just plays videogames without entertaining for 12-16 hrs he is screwed

[@phonehead7776]

@@turtlechamp8325 You're right, this is why I'd say mango is the my favourite Smash streamer. His personality is so much fun, compared to most top Smashers who all seem super serious. Hugs and PPMD are the only other Smashers whose videos I'd watch just based on the channel.

[@turtlechamp8325]

@@phonehead7776 u have to understand tho this is a personality they just put on camera Mang0 could be the most serious person in the world for all we know and leffen could be laid back and stuff like that

[@endrollcurtaincall]

Brb gonna make some popcorn for the comment section

[@raive2this818]

Personally, I think that Puff is the best character at the human top level play. Fox is the best if you have inhuman levels of execution skill. However, my opinion does not matter, because it is only an opinion.

[@James-ek3mb]

jesus christ please believe in yourself

[@guyfauks2576]

And marth is the best if you are a scrub

[@turtledove19]

We all support that video idea Leff

[@niceprofile-k6i]

For leffen tier lists are just an expression of his confidence with his characters (fox, sheik) balanced with his anxiety about other characters (marth, puff). All the squishy justifications are top down from that starting point. That’s why they’re so inconsistent.

[@maplesaucee]

How so? Pre-covid he was the only one who consistently fucked up hbox and was the only one with a winning record vs him, and he still ranked puff as #1

[@ColeslawSSBM1996]

Big Leff I would absolutely love to see you, Mang0, and Zain discuss tier lists or at least the top 3 on the podcast :)

[@LiamSCL]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJ_bk5adbrKhfs0

[@thelordoftheweebs9501]

3:13 zelda has down b tho

[@wieran35000vr]

memes aside it basically means zelda doesn't even HAVE a down B LMAO she got fucked on so hard in this game

[@richi5291]

Comedy king

[@sharsasuke01]

You are now the CEO of comedy.

[@thelordoftheweebs9501]

@@sharsasuke01 Unironically, I graduated from the institution of being fucking lame.

[@BluePickleZ]

Most accurate way to look at which S+ characters are the best is to calculate how many frames every move a said character has before a hit box/action comes out and the lag after the move is done before you are actionable again. Then you add all of the frames between every move from said character together- the one with the smallest number of frames wins the spot as the best character. Because between the S+ characters the gap is so small so you have to measure it by how fast a character can act OOS or with ISAI frames and movement. Personally I think puff is right under sheik on the list because of frame data. Puffs moves are great but can easily be wif punished because of how long it takes to do another move after b-air. The lag on that move after the move comes out is tremendous. Nowadays if you do perfectly spaced b-airs on shield as puff vs fox, fox can act OOS and cc-upsmash before puffs second perfectly spaced b-air even comes out. In my opinion its the actionable frame data that puff doesn't have that ( in these situations) forces her to play extremely passive/low risk. Because high lvl puff is all about finding those particular instances where the top tiers don't have enough actionable frames to act out of (in that moment) and punish it. In high lvl play, puff is literally the top tier gatekeeper because of this. Fox/falco/marth should win every time against that character. Fox has enough frames to counter. Falco has lasers which turn puff around so she cant b-air and is locked on the ground forcing her to do high frame options. And marth has pivot F-smash and ISAI frames to deal with puff in neutral. I could even argue that sheik wins vs puff if sheik is approaching with needle setups and wif punishing/not approaching when sheik has the lead on puff % wise. The argument for "uncommon matchup" doesn't exist anymore because of slippi. For proof about my claims framewise- watch IBDW vs Hbox during summit where IBDW beat him or M2K's fox vs HBOX in smashcon 2018 where M2K's fox 3-0's him. M2K doesnt even main fox!! That's his 3rd main. These are both instances of HBOX losing in the peak of his career that demonstrate how much fox beats puff when he has a % lead at high level play. The frames don't lie. HBOX said it himself. If fox is playing perfect HBOX will lose. Meaning if you're giving puff the frames for her to punish- you lose. So just be mindful of option select. And playing with a lead. Cause at the start of every game fox/falco/sheik have the lead because of laser/needle forcing puff to approach which puts puff at a disadvantage.

[@jocelyn9058]

What happened to the goofy thumbnails 😭

[@hitnrun66]

Been waiting for 2020 tier list forever

[@HypnoticSwitch]

10/10 Would Dislike Again. (It's a joke my dudes, I live this guy)

[@cupsoup7244]

Yo I live this guy too

[@blue_musicals]

Yeah I live this guy

[@spage0]

leff: I used to have a problem vs Seamus, but now I’ve beaten duck and plup... hugs86: *cries in missed charged shot*

[@gibraltar4841]

Pichu has potential

[@turtlechamp8325]

Yes

[@intothevoid3605]

There is or was a pichu in the top 100

[@guyfauks2576]

Omg bigger grab and nair have potential

[@lozo1006]

Imagine a mod that adds some of the benefits PAL brings to Smash. Such as Roy having the same sword range as Marth, Kirby PAL weight. And maybe some general fixes like Mr Game's shield actually covering him fully. Slight touch ups could be nice.

[@ryanwisser2480]

“Let me know if you want a full video on this” he says after a 50 minute video

[@jaysean9589]

Would be hilarious to see leffen and hbox discuss puff on the tier list on the podcast. I'd be eating popcorn for that one and I'd pay to see it.

[@swank8508]

regardless of who is right, i cant imagine leffen losing an argument to hbox. dude would go full 400wpm ben shapiro on him

[@KevinLiangP]

WE WANT THE BEST CHARACTER VIDEO

[@dazeen9591]

I think the only unviable characters are just Kirby and Bowser. Even solo Zelda or Pichu can win big tournaments with the right mindset, playstyle and effort but I don't think Kirby or Bowser can ever do it even if you put a perfect super computer which makes no mistakes ever. Kirby's and Bowser's options just lose even if you play perfectly.

[@exlordinthedude8080]

You can literally camp pichu and he just loses by throwing out moves.

[@tarapiero]

you should try working at mcdonald

[@chestercopperpot4286]

Leffen you will always be the villain with that hair and cool dude 90s style. Love ya bud.

[@Wrench-007]

We got an update with buffs and nerfs or smth

[@aydenka8452]

18:35 Doc actually has the same ground speed and fast fall speed as Mario, as well as a faster air speed, making Doc slightly faster overall than Mario in Melee.

[@forhago]

I thought Mario had less landing lag than Doc?

[@aydenka8452]

@@forhago oops, forgot about that lol. Mario does have slightly less landing lag. Generally a 1-2 frame difference on each aerial when l canceled.

[@KoeiKatsune]

Are we expecting a 1 week working at mcdonalds stream soon?

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

I know this is probably the minority opinion, but I think Marth is the best character. He beats fox, Falco, and puff, and basically no loosing matchups.

[@nickcostley9282]

I'm with you

[@equinox3861]

Several people including mew2king think that Peach with a turnip in hand beats Marth. Also Sheik.

[@guyfauks2576]

Eh marth is overrated as hell but he is top 5 at least

[@msdrakegx]

Why is everyone saying Marth beats puff all of a sudden? Is it just because of Zain?

[@jasmithyantro9680]

@@msdrakegx It's because if you play marth optimally, you can pretty much out space all of the moves that puff has and he has some good kill confirms like f-throw pivot tipper f-smash and side-b up-tilt.

[@fluffybug229]

I feel like Luigi could be played super campy like a grounded puff. Never approaching just using your wavedash to run away and using combos and up b to get early kills.

[@jasmithyantro9680]

To be fair, every character can be played campy eg. laser camping with fox/falco, turnip camping with peach, dash dance grab by the ledge as marth, etc.

[@anasazilespider5574]

luigi is horrible with projecties so tha wouldn't work

[@yaboidawg558]

Wow this is soooo hard

[@potion9595]

I for one would watch the shit out of a 1-2 hour deep discussion of Marth/Puff/Fox

[@asdfghjqwertyu1858]

i bet if you actually work at McDonald's it would definitely be harder than just streaming

[@0tf850]

Melee balance makes sense if you take the whole game into account. The team purposely made some characters good for 1v1 serious matches, as the trophy descriptions indicate. But they also balanced other characters for casuals who were just going to play free for all items.

[@bebopcola4643]

The real imbalance in melee and why so many rubes get mad about it is because its an imbalance of knowledge more than anything. Anyone can pick up Fox and try their best but the guy who understands and actually plays melee will decimate him with every character without even trying.

[@duncanmcmanus6908]

N0ne in a nutshell lmfao.

[@Ninjaananas]

It is still inbalanced on its own.

[@hawthornedouglas]

Leffen watches "Making the case". That's the best basketball youtube series I've ever watched.

[@AidyHD]

This is like one of those joke tier lists you'd see in 2015 melee hell

[@scoobymew1]

i miss melee hell :(

[@AzafureKayn]

saw someone in chat say Is Roy now tournament viable because of DontTestMe but really leffen had already beaten top 100 players with roy in tournament....

[@volt7447]

I think there’s maximum 12 characters you can solo main and 14-16 you need to at least have a secondary for. Overall I’d say maximum 16 characters for a 24 character game is pretty balanced. Although there is less character variety because of the many clones.

[@Boxvoko]

Who would've thought that 2020 would REALLY be the year of Leffeb. Amazing content and attitude!

[@musa4574]

Come work 12 hour shift at FedEx for one week.