Who is the Best Smash Player of All time?

[@l3ff3n]

Make extra spending money now… Click the link to earn now! www.influencerlink.org/SH3ds

[@Pslamist]

No u

[@Supergupo]

I won't do that but I respect the grind homie go grab that bag.

[@thelacedog1915]

Such a fitting sponsorship

[@zwi-asuz316]

Ok I wont

[@wilbertrosales4244]

He loves the game tho

[@ds2587]

It's me. I always beat my friends.

[@Me41687]

No it's actually my friend because he beats all of us

[@joolian4763]

No it's me, I beat all my friends and have won a tournament

[@jocelyn9058]

no its me I beat lvl 9 cpus in melee all the time >:(

[@HI42YT]

My dad beats me

[@chrispham6599]

@@HI42YT jeez, you had to take it there

[@tyyao2000]

Disappointed this isn’t a 3 second video of leffen just saying “me”

[@cuauhtlitorres3742]

I hoped he started saying he is the best one, then talk about the 2nd best

[@huntaustill]

LOL that would be hilarious

[@sonriku7331]

Mew2King would do that

[@theWIIISEguy]

*Sees M2K claim he's #1 in comments*

[@hugoclarke3284]

Instead it's 20 minutes of "no reign is permanent, there's still an argument for other people like me..."

[@MrNinjamunky]

It's hilarious that mang0 is in Leffen's chat as he's discussing this, lmaoooo

[@sujetonormal3399]

Where

[@AR-wi9wk]

@@sujetonormal3399 6:18

[@AltrTheEgo]

"Pick a side pussy" is the best mang0 quote of all time

[@Sasuke7760878]

It's also funny cuz n0ne was in Mango's chat when he was discussing it lol

[@leandro6285]

@@Sasuke7760878 what did none say?

[@timothypickarski5234]

Damn Leffen really is the Vegeta of the melee community. He started off as a foreign, spiky haired villain, and now here he is the mediator in hot melee drama

[@RamzaBeoulves]

Leff definately has the best storyline

[@jocelyn9058]

villan hero uprising arc

[@FriskXI]

Or the one that creates drama and controversy

[@Drvm614]

Cry baby antics and all. G

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

Oh he still creates plenty of drama lol, and we love him for that.

[@Quoise_]

I’ve never been beat by a top 10 players so I think I’m the GOAT

[@GetCareless]

Yo same, let's do this bruh. Me vs you

[@hirozzayz8164]

They haven't even touched me. Let me join

[@ToonGohan]

I challenged Leffen on Twitter but he never responded... I know he’s scared.

[@gogogadgetrectalpunch]

Can’t argue with that logic 🧐

[@3drat56]

True

[@benport466]

6:18 mang0 in chat lmao

[@lyndsaybrown8471]

Good eye. Mang0 making comments and Leffen just rolling with whatever he's saying. At least Leffen's chat gave Mang0 attention.

[@baconmachette6072]

Ibdw was also in chat during this lol

[@SplitSeoul]

LMFAOOO did not see that. Good eye brother

[@henryreturns1397]

- As Leffen mentions , it's impossible to see how the GOAT is due to the game still been played and new things are still been discover - If Mang0 retired on 2014 after his Big House 4 win , would he be the GOAT? - Hugs mentioned a big difference between Ken and Armada is that Ken got retired by the new kids , while Armada decided to retire on the middle of 2018 - As much I like Armada, if he brings up these comments , he should come back to compete to back up those words - Would be hype as fuck to have a Money Match Salty Suite between Mang0 and Armada , first to 5.

[@Superkirbeh]

I'd prefer if Armada just came back to dominate a year again. Beating mango doesn't mean shit if he can't win a supermajor

[@AltrTheEgo]

I feel like if Armada came back it would take a while to get back into "supermajor" shape. He could be great, but I don't think he's placing top 5 immediately to dominate again. If it is just a grudgematch though I feel like it should be more of a first to 10 vs a first to 5.

[@Yokai_Yuri]

Armada retired because at some point people HAS to retire either to maintain their status as the greatest (like ZeRo did for smash 4) or because he is just tired of compeeting. The problem with retiring whenever you feel like is that the toxic side of the fanbase will call you out by saying "you weren't the greatest because there are now people better than you heheheheheheehheheheheheheheheehhehehe" I think by this point in time, Armada just proved how good he is. Mango doesn't even hold a candle considering Mango has been Hbox bitch for soooo long now...

[@SudlaSteel]

I don’t think it’s fair to expect him to come out of retirement and retrain to defend his GOAT status

[@henryreturns1397]

@@Yokai_Yuri "For so long now" you know that Mango still has a positive record on heads to head vs Hungrybox right? And sure Hungrybox was better than Mang0 since 2015, but Mang0 can still go back and fourth with him. Hell , Mang0 atm is way above Hungrybox....................

[@laroc9058]

I love twitter beefs when Leffen is on the sidelines. He makes the best jokes then

[@raive2this818]

I think that for Smash Bros, the best player of all time is Mew2King. This man was the best player in Brawl AND Melee at the same time for a little bit, and for a long time, he didn't have a human training partner.

[@ursamajor4684]

during this same period, he was also among the best players in the world at project m

[@keithtestaverde3712]

@@ursamajor4684 And Sm4sh

[@404Dannyboy]

Honestly any of the gods except ppmd (just because his career was so short) have an argument for goat. Hbox has been insanely dominant for a long time. Mango has been dominant for forever and has innovated play styles enormously while using a harder character than hbox. Armada has perhaps the highest and longest peak of play. M2k was dominant for a long time across multiple games.

[@raive2this818]

@@404Dannyboy Yeah. I agree. In terms of Smash Bros as a series, its overall best player was definitely M2K. M2K was at a few points in his life, the best in Melee, the best in Brawl, the best in PM, top 50 in Smash 4, and is still a great player in Ultimate.

[@gatorssbm]

He won so much in smash masters tourney format that he decided not to enter just to give others a chance to win

[@ThirtyfourEC]

Mango's definitely the goat. Has the beard and is probably the only candidate that played goat simulator.

[@jonasalmstrom4986]

... But Goat Simulator is Swedish

[@alecyerikian8073]

Yeah but mang0 has a goat tattoo also

[@Dhopamine]

I feel like the GOAT status is something bestowed upon you. You can't claim the GOAT title without looking bad. Instead of debating who is the GOAT, they should make a Hall of Fame so they include all of the greats in the game.

[@senjoFan69]

A melee hall of fame would be so amazing for the longevity of the game

[@KFN1A2A3]

I agree. Having to convince other people why you're the goat, isn't very goat-like either. Armada should just shh

[@Chaoskae]

Thats a double edge sword cuz HBox is disliked cuz of puff he most likely would never be considered if he "waits" for the opinions of others to give him GOAT status

[@liamFTW101]

@@Chaoskae anyone who doesn’t think Hbox is easily not one of the best if not best player melee has ever seen is delusional

[@ForRunnerz]

@@liamFTW101 yet during the whole twitter arguments last week, NO ONE brought up hbox, like as if this guy wasn't dominating for 3 fucking years lol 😂

[@AutumnReel4444]

"Armada just wants to be left alone" Right, that's why he blew up twitter with defenses of his greatness and calls himself the goat as his brand. Bit weak sauce defense but to each their own

[@IronicHavoc]

Armada tweets that way about literally everything though. His average tweet count per any given topic is like 10+. Keep in mind I disagree with a lot of Armada's argument in this particular case, but I think you're overblowing how much he's invested. Armada just generally has long winded and kinda stubborn opinions - it's bothered me before when he's done it for entirely different topics. Also more importantly: Saying he wants to be left alone isnt a defense. Someone can want to be left alone AND have their pride/opinions cause them to act in ways that's counterproductive to that motivation. Humans don't always have motivations and behaviors that align perfectly. I dont think Leffen intended to present that as an excuse for him.

[@YellowYoshi398]

I like Armada but it really is rather ostentatious to retire and keep calling yourself the GOAT - that is really a title that has to be defended, in any game with an ongoing meta

[@kingofpancakes1278]

@@YellowYoshi398 i actually disagree with that. from the eyes of onlookers, maybe. but some people have established themselves as greats even past their years of competing. i think of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell, and so on. those guys are greats for their generations even though they haven’t played the game in years. armada retired a little over two years ago. there hasn’t been enough to happen where his stability in the conversation as GOAT has shifted imo.

[@josephwoo69]

King of Pancakes You listed a bunch of physical athletes that play sports that have existed for a looong time. We’re talking about melee: a video game that has had a rapidly changing meta since it has only existed for less than 20 years. The reason why Michael Jordan can be called a GOAT is because basketball doesn’t have a changing meta and there’s really no way it can pushed any further. He doesn’t need to prove anything because basketball 30 years ago wasn’t any less difficult to compete in than now. You just can’t compare Armada to athletes like MJ

[@VergilSFD]

@@josephwoo69 Did you just type that basketball does not have a changing meta and can not be pushed any further? You may have become the dumbest person on this Earth and you just outed yourself as someone who knows fuck all about the Sport. Anyone else trying to make that argument should save themselves and everyone else their time and cease and desist.

[@codetaku]

Any discussion about the Melee GOAT that involves a few paragraphs about Ken's period of absolute dominance gets my upvote. Like, yeah, for people still in "the Melee scene", obviously everyone recognizes modern players are better. But for people that only *really* paid attention back when Melee was "the current gen Smash game", Ken will live on in our memories forever.

[@richardbogart4653]

Ken's instincts and ability to read were absolutely GOAT tier, question is just if he has the drive and discipline to practice as much as a modern player does. Grinding to the highest skillcap is basically a necessity nowadays, only once you've reached that level does it become more about psychology (as is typical for fighting games).

[@ursamajor4684]

imo, trying your best to defend your legacy from scrutiny while also trying to argue about the state of the game you retired from years ago strikes me as insecure. when ken retired, he had nothing to say about his legacy; it spoke for itself, and i don't think that anyone worth listening to undervalues his influence. i wouldn't call armada anything but the greatest of all time at the moment, but i don't think the way he's going about this does him any favors.

[@sujetonormal3399]

When him say meta hasnt changed that much means Armada is not going to loss to a top 100 player When that happens then he needs to learn the meta

[@Yokai_Yuri]

The mentality of the people and the importance they give to people bitching is very different from the Ken's era to nowadays era. You have to understand people's notion of events when it comes to pick up a favorite player in any kind of game or sports.

[@ursamajor4684]

@@Yokai_Yuri if armada's GOAT claim is as indisputable as he says it is, then he shouldn't have to worry about "people bitching". again, i don't even disagree with him; armada is the melee GOAT right now. i'm just saying that if he's this confident in his status and legacy, there's no reason to blow up twitter about it.

[@Bootersandbeans]

This is an insane take. Jordan is known as the basketball GOAT but he defends his legacy all the freaking time. Being that competitive comes with a price. It is not insecurity, it is competitive drive - even when retired. Some people are not much with words. Ken was always a bit of a humble bragger. He was never the type to speak on those things. He went to Japan and said he was not worried about being number one; rather, he was worried about soaking up the Japanese culture. Saying those things does not mean he is not at all worried about his legacy; rather, it means he has never been one to outwardly discuss or display his protection of that legacy.

[@ursamajor4684]

@@Bootersandbeans jordan can't just come back and play basketball again. armada can always come back and play melee, but he doesn't want to. the contradiction between him having the competitive drive to argue about the state of the game, while not picking up a controller and proving his assertions, is something that people are reasonably irritated by, no matter how correct he is.

[@Alex-kf4zf]

Thanks for talking about Ken with respect and some logic. The King of Smash. The Ken Combo. To us oldsters, Ken's legacy will never die. He WAS melee back then to us. Being ahead of the curve deserves some respect even if you aren't "the best" player to ever play. You can't stand on the shoulders of giants and then take credit for their heights.

[@Alex-kf4zf]

Also Jordan >> Lebron. Obviously.

[@mms7328]

love this comment: "Armada gave everything to melee, Melee gave everything to Mang0"

[@Hamisback]

Leffen: I want to be the best at fighting games SonicFox: *pokes head in*

[@PudPo]

Furries don't count

[@liamFTW101]

Sonic fox is a prodigy and probably the best fgc player. I don’t even like the guy but no one has a resume in the short amount of time. Literally no one

[@reenans2860]

@@liamFTW101 Greatest fighting game player of all time would be sonicfox or Justin wong

[@VergilSFD]

@@reenans2860 J.Wong still goes back to old games and cleans house.

[@liamFTW101]

@@VergilSFD I’m ok with jwong too because he was basically sonic fox back in the day

[@davidprevails]

Leffen touches on this, and I think it's pretty important -- if Mango retired in 2014, we wouldn't have a scene. A part of being the GOAT is impact to the game -- and Mang0 hard carried the scene with his stream and hosting players. Factor all he's accomplished and he's obviously the GOAT.

[@jijmotorp3079]

Goat doesn't have a true definition so it has obviously a lot of answers

[@Marcusjnmc]

T90 practically hard carried Age II into being an esport but nobody would call him the goat, he's just bad at the game xP

[@intothevoid3605]

@Car Ram-Rod same reason why I hold m2k in a very high regard. the stuff he's done for the game is in my opinion goat worthy

[@WillyMacShow]

The fact that melee has been around long enough to have this many players around this many eras is so badass. It’s why it’s the best spectator e sport Ken is goat in my eyes, the documentary made his story so compelling. People obviously way better now than he was back then. Kens like Wilt Chamberlan. Wouldn’t win today, but captured the early glory.

[@PolythenePam0451]

Armada's salty and Leffen's the calm one. Never thought I'd see the day.

[@luvsik7]

It’s actually me; I am undefeated in my neighborhood. My friends can never beat me and say that I am better than all the other pro players. I also tried the new slippy thingy and I just don’t lose.

[@phantom5757]

M2k said it best it’s between hbox, mango or armada but it depends on the person

[@pikwells7141]

and m2k himself. i agree w you

[@phantom5757]

@@pikwells7141 100% the top 4 all go to those 4

[@gazclarke3618]

6:45 Is like where as a kid you fluke a win against the kid who everyone knows is the best at the game on the first game of the day, but then you retire a champion and refuse to run it back just to piss him off.

[@kerokeropoonito]

EXACTLY LOL

[@shnuggles443]

its kinda funny that leffen only talks about hbox when hes getting beat by "people that werent relevant in bracket" and nothing else, rip

[@Darkdragon902.]

To be fair hbox decided to stop playing much melee once online started and has switched to streaming ultimate. As much as it sucks that he’s not playing or practicing melee right now, he’s chosen to focus on what would be most lucrative and still enjoyable for him.

[@bruh1704]

@@Darkdragon902. *without getting witch hunted for trying to win

[@realMooncaf]

@@Darkdragon902. after being vilified for most of his melee career it’s good that he can relax and enjoy what he plays now without any stress of being the best

[@shnuggles443]

@@Darkdragon902. ye Im not dogging on the guy just thought it was funny lol. I'm not a fan of his but I sure don't dislike him enough to throw a crab

[@That1GoldenBoi]

I say that the best smash bros player is the friends we've made along the way

[@ratmforthewin]

GOAT of fighting games would be one of the silliest discussions ever. Also, I agree with the statement that Armada is GOAT as it stands right now, but is in risk of losing that status in the near future.

[@richardbogart4653]

For someone to upstage Armada as GOAT you'd have to have an equal level of dominance in an equally competitive period. This is rather unlikely. Being the #1 by a signfiicant margin COULD be done, and arguably Hbox and Zain are somewhat close to that, but the question is how long they keep it up for. Hbox didn't stay #1 as long as Armada before burning out. Zain, who knows. Simple fact is, once you reached the top and defended your throne for a singificant time, it's extremely hard to stay motivated because there is literally nothing more to reach for. Who gives a shit if you dominate yet another year on top of X amounts of years? I doesn't do anything. That's the reason those people (Armada, Hbox) lose motivation, stop practicing, and retire. Not because "people magically got to their level" but because they got worse. But Armada actually hung at the top for a very long time in terms of Melee. Then, the second aspect is competition. Armada dominated in undisputably the most competitive age of Melee. He dominated the #1 of the previous era (Mango) and the #1 of the next era (Hbox). That's fucking insane. In comparison, who does Zain have to deal with nowadays. Washed up boomer Mango, plup and leffen who barely even play the game and... n0ne? It's really not comparable.

[@timbrady1176]

Leffen: "Of course I know him! He's me."

[@broski981]

Chillin's samus has a good running for goat in 1 or two years. TBH best samus to ever do it imo

[@Pslamist]

Ngl, this clickbait got me frame 1. Can't wait for the next Leff beef.

[@kn6361]

Isn't it obvious? I'm the GOAT Melee player, undefeated in competitive Melee since 2001. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of surpassing me, and you never will because I don't play Melee competitively.

[@Goreblender]

I used to bet people 10:1 odds that they couldn't beat me in rock paper scissors. Then I would just say, "I'm not gonna play against you, therefore you can't beat me." ... ... ... Nobody ever paid me, sore losers.

[@kn6361]

@@Goreblender The ignorance of those losers smh

[@justsomeguy7042]

Isai's the GOAT. He just never showed us his full power.

[@AmbientShrub]

I really do feel like he would've had Ken's status if he really wanted it. But even then I don't think Isai would've kept that up long enough to also beat the new Gods when they came along. The game just spans too long for one person. He was def the greatest from that era though.

[@SonGohan-fx3vb]

@@AmbientShrub He wasn’t, the greatest was Ken

[@sketch9538]

Mad respect to him for WEARING A DIFFERENT SHIRT DURING SPONSERS. Makes it SO MUCH easier to skip it

[@mire_cs]

ken being bill russell has to be the most accurate thing i saw in chat

[@Spyncar]

14:01 forgetting that they're both Swedish, Leffen accidentally does the greatest Armada impression of all time

[@VangKevinCatfish]

Best smash player of all time are force retirement due to their actions. Lmao

[@diet7418]

Lol the lil M2k in the thumbnail

[@wayanc1880]

i like how you kept the chat in the video. its like being able to see what people are thinking during a lecture

[@sharsasuke01]

Leff is now sponsored for youtube!? Hes in the big league now. I hope he remembers us.

[@tacombustiona2663]

Probably the best discussion i've ever seen on the GOAT melee topic ever

[@AiZm8]

1:07 when I heard the "sh" sound I swear he was gonna say "You can get paid to shit on other people"

[@PlayThenReview]

I’d rather work at McDonald’s than be the greatest of all time

[@Descro382]

😂

[@atomu27]

i think what armada meant about the game is that the meta changed less from five gods era to now compared to how it changed from stone age ken era to five gods era

[@nogard0497]

The Melee goat is the goat that one guy brought into a Smash venue.

[@sharsasuke01]

I'm just mad Armada is in good healthy and is wasting it. PPMD would kill to be able to be well enough to play.

[@frxtheraptor8671]

Armada wasnt happy playing melee anymore why would he keep doing something he doesnt enjoy anymore?

[@sharsasuke01]

@@frxtheraptor8671 But is that true though? Zero said the same thing until he finally admitted he just didn't want to lose and ruin his "legacy".

[@frxtheraptor8671]

@@sharsasuke01 Im pretty sure it's true he said many times on stream that he was losing his "fire" for the game and that he was tired of travelling.

[@Ryan_Austin]

@@sharsasuke01 The dude had mad depression and stress due to the game and being the best, I fully understand zero quitting when he did

[@colinmurphy2214]

@@Ryan_Austin being no. 1 sucks bc you have nowhere to go but down

[@DCDC54321-s]

The fact that every mid level fox and falco has mastered slideoff DI is a pretty big testament to the changing meta

[@RamzaBeoulves]

The Goat thing is divisive Maybe we could focus more on praising these players for their mind-blowing accomplishments. Something more like a hall of fame. That way Ken would get the respect he deserves

[@KG66610]

If style, impact, bringing new shit to the game, and longevity matter, Mango is clearly the GOAT.

[@inheritedwheel2900]

mango said it himself, he still needs to earn his goat status, which is why he's angry that armada claims his "forever GOAT" title even tho he's retired. it implies mango cannot "earn" his title. mango said "why else do I play 12 hours a day?" he doesn't like that his effort for the last 2 years could be nullified by armada on the sidelines.

[@CrazyBoy-gd4wz]

Mango trash hbox is the actual goat

[@CrazyBoy-gd4wz]

And his character sucks too

[@grantpeterson1789]

@@CrazyBoy-gd4wz I assume you're trolling, cause ya know... Puff

[@disrupt94]

Armada completely innovated the most popular character fox, and new players are following in the mold of the armada fox, not the mango style of fox. Armadas matchup spread ought to be discussed. Only 8 players ever beat him in something like 8 years. His lowest placement during those years was what, seventh or ninth? No other player posed such a challenge to the top 10-25 players, While Mango had periods of time where he lost every other game he played to Plup or Westballz, and occasionally he bustered out in at 17th. Armada is also the only top player to three peat a major, and he did it with two majors (genesis and Smash summit), while holding as many EVO throphies as Mango, and actually being in more EVO GF's. Armada is the goat imo.

[@OtterSC2]

Armadas achievements speak for themselves but his personal legacy can be tarnished if he keeps up the "meta hasn't changed" nonsense.

[@michaeledes1111]

You've matured so much Leffen :)

[@holdenberries8405]

last time i was this early sheik was top 3.

[@samorydjalo7566]

When you make a video about yourself uwu

[@javiercortes814]

Leffen might not be the GOAT, but he's the definite representation of what peak Melee looks like

[@samorydjalo7566]

@@javiercortes814 Man he IS the GOAT, thats why i wrote the comment xdddddddddd

[@BobardeZanzibar]

He's really not though. He has the potential to be, though.

[@pikwells7141]

@@samorydjalo7566 *cough(6-0 by M2K)*cough lmaoaoaoao

[@kieranhumphreys9331]

Surprised it took 43 seconds for Leff to mention BASKETBALL

[@mz_emmet]

Same thing can be said about f1, lewis hammilton has the most pole positions and has tied michael Schumacher for most gp wins but he's not considered GOAT. Ayrton Senna has a little more than half the amount of gp wins and he has the 3rd best number of pole positions. Yet, many f1 fans and especially drivers would say Senna is the GOAT. Some would argue it's Schumacher. But very few people would say it's hammilton, he's the most recent one btw I think the title is just a matter of convention, and is usually given to pioneers who dominated at the "golden age" of the sport rather than newer competitors who are dominating in modern times.

[@STR1F3D]

The big difference between the goat comparison of sports vs video games is that sports careers have an intrinsic limit to them. After a certain age your body will deteriorate and you will not be physically able to keep up the same level or improve. Because of this you judge sports players based on what they are able to do within their given career time frame and maybe some bonus points for extending your career while still performing at high level. Games and in this case melee dont have this distinction. Daigo for example is 39 and is still competing at an ultra high level in street fighter, so both mango and armada that are a decade younger clearly could still compete another ten years if not much longer. It really is a case of armada quitting early and claiming a title that has no right to be claimed yet. Regardless if armada stays retired and mango continues to play and doesnt randomly become a top 20 player within the next 2-3 years, the mango armada debate will be completely one sided as mango would now have so many more victories and a longer career span.

[@brandonmedlock7532]

If armada wants to be left alone he shouldn’t make twitch titles claiming goat imo

[@rockenamigo5345]

He is that goat though.

[@mr.b9613]

He has the right too. The man dominated one of the most advanced fighting games.

[@vitorbatalhaferreira8433]

I don't like hbox but I seriously think he has a STRONG case for #1, just like armada and mango. People who say he wasn't that good are actually crazy. Disliking him is fine but he still was one of the five gods and #1 for a few years in the most recent era of melee, which is arguably the hardest era with the best players

[@acidjaxeertknad8704]

Always appreciate your input and opinions, really broad and covers multiple stances

[@theabner880]

A better comparison or conversation topic would be who would be more likely to win in their prime or at the best they've performed. They had their ups and downs and beat each other at different times, but who was better at their best? The GOAT title should be for continual dominance and titles or tournament win percentage among top level players.

[@kirazo1505]

Its so funny to see the chat argue with leffen and even mang0 like these are top players i think they know more about melee meta and top players skill levels than you who just watches.

[@sweggysuperduperswag]

Top 4 who aren't -A raccoon that keeps eating my trash -My hentai figurine -Me -Juan DeBiedma

[@michaelnelson8618]

Don't think I've ever heard that boi William speak so eloquently. I'm impressed. I sorta thought he was just like a troll at first 😁

[@alexdaigneault6749]

GOAT is Hbox, been winning since 2008 and still winning tournaments to this day, Mang0 is my favorite player to watch but to deny that Hbox isn't the GOAT is just disrespectful to how good he's been all these years

[@TobiDaJoker]

When you're good, YOU tell others When you're the goat, THEY tell you

[@FlyRizzleDizzle]

The bill russell comparison to ken in the chat is surprisingly spot on. If he straight up dominated before the game really evolved that’s literally an exact comparison

[@grom9452]

I don't think anyone has been quite as dominant as ZeRo was in smash 4 tbh

[@CursedMarkMedia]

Zero has strong claim to overall smash GOAT. Doesn't matter if he sent out some skype messages.

[@ManuelPersona24]

Nobody cares about it. He should have been banned at the end of 2014 to never get the opportunity to start a streak.

[@grom9452]

@@ManuelPersona24 Haha idiot

[@ManuelPersona24]

@@grom9452 Jeder weiß, dass MKLeo besser ist.

[@violetchan6402]

I think people shouldn’t be thinking about who’s the best, but what *your* best is. My motivation for competition isn’t to be the best, but to constantly improve. Improving at something gives me a sense of progress, accomplishment, and purpose. If I happen to become the best at something, I’d certainly be proud, but it’s not my ultimate goal, and I’d never move on from it, nor would keeping the goat status be the reason for me to keep competing. This was really long, and got a bit personal, but I hope this made sense. tldr: there never will be a goat, and people should strive to improve instead of simply being the best.

[@lorenzoram6025]

" In general I'm friends with both people, I'm friends with everyone here" - Leffen ; The meta has certainly changed.

[@andyrevo1927]

Somebody said "Prime Blur" lmaooo I'm weak.

[@brett1908]

2:43 That's literally the words I thought in my head when I first saw this "drama" lmao

[@Sakaki98]

This is why GOAT’s should be reserved for the Olympics. Finding out who the GOAT is is as simple as looking up the the world record for that competition.

[@CompleteProducer84]

I’m pretty newb to the scene, can someone explain what he means by not wanting to discuss the top 3 Brawl players? Was there some sort of controversy surrounding them?

[@josephguiste9465]

First of all, you need to be a melee player to even be considered. No melee elitism here (I love brawl, etc.) but you HAVE to recognize the massive skill gap between the games. Secondly, Ken is the MJ of Smash. The game has changed yes. And the meta has fundamentally changed. But I still gotta give it to Ken. The GOAT.

[@barbedbeggar5520]

Before the revent tweets, I thought this was settled honestly.

[@plasticbudgie]

Best Smash player in terms of all Smash games combined would have to be Mew2king, Interms of Melee Armada no doubt.

[@AtlasSSBM]

leffen has never had a more fitting sponsor than this video

[@vvav]

Holy shit, look how Leffen has grown up. He used to cause the drama, and now he's the moderator.

[@FruityKnuckles]

where did you get that mario in the back?

[@elfuegomegainvisible8153]

My response to the video tittle: Armada you are beautiful I love you, when you beat...

[@alexeonbel4304]

Who'd have thought there'd be a day where Leffen would be the most sensible guy in the room. That's character development bitch.

[@paxtonkocka3803]

How funny would it be if this was like a 10 second video and he just goes who is the greatest of all time it is me

[@Gabriel-zy6xv]

It’s hbox, you all just jump on a hate train for him without knowing why you hate him. He grinded the hardest and had overall more wins than the other gods. He was against the odds and fought against the crowd and still won with a “low tier” character

[@richardbogart4653]

Puff "low tier" lmao

[@chinchillas]

Puff isn't low tier

[@msdrakegx]

It seems like everyone these days is drinking the Hbox koolaid. People's criticism of him is legitimate even if you don't agree. We know why we don't think he's the best. It's cool if you think he's the best, just don't pretend there's no reason why anyone could possibly disagree with you.

[@fizzycreature6359]

But the goat is in front of our screens. Remember evo 2018 beating the "Goat"

[@Jayluna98]

Good video Leffen it was nice to hear your thoughts on this and as a "retired" Melee player you make me want to jump on Slippi and give it another go in this new meta. Keep up the awesome content thank you!

[@patoa3481]

I can undertand that the way Armada responds to all this is really not that smart because people want to see him back it up and prove it but I can also understand where he is coming from. I would personally be angry too if people start to doubt your legacy and disrespect your retirement as a way of "pussying out". Because from what I remember he was the one who went undefeated against any non top 5 player for years

[@williamjohnson6588]

The chess debate for GOAT is so hotly debated. It’s hilarious since it’s clearly Carlsen 😉

[@maxharmonnn]

Gary >:(

[@rhf7071]

Morphy has left the chat

[@stephengehly2319]

It’s now Magnus Carlsen. In terms of quality of play he’s the most accurate player of all time. Kasparov had a good argument for it for a long time for such a dominant stretch but magnus is already halfway there and already playing better. He’s currently in a classical undefeated streak at top level of over 120 games which is a record. Been top player for 10 years since 18 years old. He’s the GOAT. Bobby Fischer has I would say an even better claim as he was so head and shoulders above everyone at a time when chess was already pretty developed. Fischer was over 100 rating points above the rest of the world in his prime. Won 21 straight games of elite level chess. Won the us championship 11/11 which is unequaled to this day. Fischer also innovated the game with creative masterpieces. Morphy was head and shoulders above everyone in his time. To the point where in his short 2 year career after 400 games he refused to play anyone without giving them pawn and move odds. The game wasn’t very developed and morphy probably developed the meta of chess more than anyone in history. He was also super accurate and growing up only played on Sundays. There’s maybe a couple more people that should probably be in the GOAT conversation but in terms of accuracy and dominance I’d say Magnus has to be the choice. He’s the most recent when chess is quite developed, play among top players is super accurate, and he still manages to dominate and win tournament after tournament and rarely loses games.

[@rhf7071]

@@stephengehly2319 no he isn’t, morphy was way more accurate without even trying lmao

[@stephengehly2319]

@@rhf7071 this isn’t debatable. They’ve run the analysis. They have compared each players moves with the strongest chess engines available and Magnus is the most accurate. www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/magnus-carlsen-better-than-anyone-in-history-2016-11%3famp www.google.com/amp/s/www.chess.com/amp/article/who-was-the-best-world-chess-champion-in-history

[@Alex-xz2bz]

I was watching the smash doc and I was literally just thinking about this

[@keller_3180]

I just saw keitaro then broke my tv with a signed controller from him

[@Alex-xz2bz]

@@keller_3180 yeah seeing keitaro was terrible im glad he's gone

[@keller_3180]

Facts

[@d8-remy]

Main take away: Leffen is gonna start whaling in Genshin Impact

[@mugenspiral]

13:54 Pretty much this

[@cherryb0ng]

Nobody: Random conclusion of twitch chat: f* cody

[@DekuDude]

What is "great" meaning? For me, M2K will always be the greatest. He has done so much for improvement and is building up his coaching career. If he would focus just on melee, he could crush everyone like in the past. He always fought with depressions and performed top professional in all smash games besides 64. He was the best in brawl and melee at the same time for a period of time. His potential is huge. His character knowledge is not pulled out of the internet, he discovered all by his own. Most people forget about that pioneer spirit. I totally understand if other people have another definition of being a "great" player, so feel free to have a different opinion than me. I think M2K has the right spirit: "I love all smash games and people should have fun and work together". Not just words, he lives it.

[@TheRealMew2king]

ty

[@ringotheflamingo6900]

IDK if you read these, but I think you could get into Quake Live dueling. Similar mindgames to fighting games even though its an fps and the movement has tons of depth

[@general.kenobi]

6:03 the year is 20XX. Leffen is friends with everyone.

[@williamjohnson6588]

If you know chess this will make sense but: Ken is Morphy Armada is Fischer (retired after insane dominance and continued to claim to be the best) Mango is Kasparov (longest dominance) HBox is Karpov (main guy to challenge Kasparov)

[@vjoe5389]

If we are talking about the greatest accomplishments, M2K is easily the GOAT with him being the best player in Brawl, the best player in Melee for a long time (making him the best at 2 games for a time), being one of the 5 Gods in Melee, being a top 50 player in Sm4sh, being pretty good in Ultimate, and all of these other things I can't do justice for him in this singular comment. If we're talking about who had the greatest influence, Mang0 easily wins with him creating the whole 20XX thing and creating a whole new generation of Fox/Falco players and redefining what Melee is as a competitive fighting game is. If we're talking about who had the longest win streak, Ken easily wins. If we're talking about the greatest modern Melee player, that title could go to Hbox, Zain, or Armada (despite him being retired). I personally believe Zain takes this trophy becomes he is redifining the Marth meta and has won a lot of tournaments. Armada is retired so I don't think he should even be considered a GOAT unless he somehow comes back to Melee competitively (which is highly unlikely). Hbox seems to be on the verge of quitting Melee and doing Ultimate full time so it's hard to call him the GOAT if he is eventually going to quit Melee soon (which seems very likely with the fact Ultimate players love him and he seems to love playing Ultimate more than Melee. I bet he also gets paid more to play Ultimate more than Melee so he is slowly losing any reason to continue playing Melee at this point if you asked me). An honorable mention would go to Leffen, Axe, and PPMD for their own reasons...

[@tree_0550]

I never knew that goat meant greatest of all time until now... wow

[@stickyplays8809]

lmfao chat said L-Cheating (L-canceling)

[@LettuceGod1]

I saw someone say “Ken is wilt chamberlain” in chat. Whatta fucking God Tier comparison.

[@cullenhutchison6528]

I think the GOAT of a game will keep changing until everyone stops playing the game, at which time you can analyze and find who was the best player. If the game keeps going though, either someone new could start dominating or people who are at the top could start doing worse or retire. I don't see the point in discussing a GOAT until the game dies.

[@ramdamdam1402]

Leffen, I think you're the best melee player of all time (in terms of skills) I've thought it since your Hbox losing streak, where I would rage everytime because you couldn't pull off what you had the skills to pull off. But you didn't quit when you were at the peak to prove you were the best fighting game player of all time because 1) you were never at the peak of the melee mountain 2) losing in melee was too harsch a hit on your motivation. Wanna prove you're the best fighting game player of all time, it's about depth bro, then width. Be the first at melee for a few years then quit and become the best at another one if you want. But you still got step 1 to achieve bro