Legacy Automakers lose $6,000 USD on every Electric Car they sell

Legacy Automakers lose $6,000 USD on every Electric Car they sell
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#LegacyAutomakers #toyota #toyotaevs #evsales #losses #evnews
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[@CorwynGC]

It is not that they make few EVs since they lose money on each, rather they lose money on each BECAUSE they make so few. Tesla lost money on each car too, until they ramped up to make a lot of them.

[@1voluntaryist]

By the time legacy makers are convinced there is demand, it will be too late. Why? They are already in debt. Who will invest in a business that has lost its big lead and is falling behind every day? This was predicted years ago based on the statistics.

[@singed8853]

Yes you know better than the entire executive team at Toyota. Even though Toyota just had the best 2 years of profitability in its history (2022 & 2023). Clearly they don’t know what they’re doing. They should probably take advice from you on this matter.

[@ZoomZoomMX3]

EVs make no sense in Canada

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

The problem is not enough demand and the fact that there are a whole lot of new players in the market. One in six cars sold in Western markets is a BEV. It is a tiny market, especially when you factor in the "new boys on the block" in the likes of BYD, CATL, MG etc. The reality is that there is very little demand spread across a large number of manufacturers. Think about it. What would you do if you were in business? Would you cater to the 1 in 6 or would you cater to the 5 in 6? And would you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on capital to appease that one in six, given the existence of other players, especially keeping in mind the number that are going to the wall in China (no pun intended). Investors seem to be pretty happy with how legacy auto is tackling this issue, Toyota in particular. Legacy auto haven't lost a "big lead". The likes of Tesla and BYD, the biggest EV sellers, are still light years away from VW group or Toyota in sales volume. And the sales volumes of many (not all!) of the legacy auto manufacturers is still growing at a very healthy rate.

[@alankehiayan5527]

​🎉e3

[@michbenny1363]

United States will completely change the demand for EVs if Republicans take over the government. Some are pushing for a dismantling of the administrative state, which includes the Department of Environmental Resources and fuel consumption reduction requirements.

[@tonywei423]

Just checked BYD seagull price in China, start from RMB69800, that is AU$14815 for a small hatchback 305kms range.

[@nfzeta128]

yea those prices are honestly criminal. Wish they made it around the world nearer to that price.

[@tonywei423]

@@nfzeta128 They started sell that in Brazil, selling like hot chips, 7600 units in 4 days.

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

Toyota loses a lot more than that on each hydrogen fuel cell car they sell (which is not very many, because HFC cars are a gigantic flop). All BEV EVs lose money at first, just like Tesla did for the first several years. It's a new technology that takes a while to recoup the costs on. If Toyota had not wasted so much time and money on HFCs (that they STILL waste time and money on!) then maybe they would already be in the profit stage and giving Tesla a run for their money. Instead, the entire Japanese auto industry is *WAY* behind most of the rest of the world in this area.

[@ouethojlkjn]

It is a strange thing, but the human condition is when you get very good at something you don’t want to change and get very good at something else. Companies enjoying long-term success these days, know very well the importance of adapting. Bill Gates famously stopped, his developers working on their profitable Microsoft exchange email system to work full-time on Microsoft internet explorer - which they gave away for free - because he saw where the competition was, and Microsoft were in danger of becoming irrelevant, and bankrupt.

[@robertwoodhouse-bm7kt]

Japan/Toyota did not want to make BEV cars as China was so far in front in terms of materials and battery development. Japan/Toyota would be dependent on China. Toyota made the Japan government build a hydrogen fueling net work in Japan. They still insist that BEV will only be 30% of the new car market as a maximum and ICE and Hybrid will always be part of the customer choice. In 2024, in the UK, 22% of new cars sold must be zero emission or pay a fine of $19k per car. By 2028 the target is 52%, 80% by 2030 and 100% by 2035. Zero emissions means hybrids don´t count. In the UK a large gas station company is having Tesla install chargers in their gas stations.

[@justinr9753]

How much power has fusion produced? It's always 20 years and billions of dollars away. The first iPhone was expensive for the time, only on AT&T, didn't have GPS, didn't have tethering, and was so fragile a dropped call could break the screen. Evs made up the first cars but had many of the same problems of today so when the electric starter was invented they were soon phased out, and that was at 38 percent adoption rate. The article says nothing about Toyota, it talks about Ford, GM, Hyundai, and Tesla. You fault Toyota for their first prototype hydrogen car sold only in select markets for losing money and in the next sentence say evs lose money. At work, we had $20,000 equipment that was soon phased out with something way better and cheaper, but it was that equipment that paved the way for the next generation. Will hydrogen work? Idk, but you didn't know either

[@ChickensAndGardening]

Toyota's big enough that they can afford to waste a few billion on H₂. The question is whether they can catch up with Tesla/BYD/CATL in BEV.

[@ouethojlkjn]

@@justinr9753 I believe the original iphone did not have wifi either and limited battery life. Last time I checked they had 25% of the entire market..... a couple of bigger and smaller versions of exactly the same phone using the same operating system - I wonder where I have seen that before...

[@DrDave_63395]

It’s not just legacy auto makers loosing money on the sale of EVs but that dealers are not able to make it up on the service and renewables

[@sinasster]

Saying they are losing money on every car sold needs to stop. This is just the breakdown of development costs per car. The billions have already been spent, so it is now time to sell more EVs.

[@stevensmith8937]

I haven't figured out how to charge one up in my apartment complex in Las Vegas, yet.

[@bearcubdaycare]

A quick web search showed 1278 apartments in Las Vegas with EV charging, so if willing to move...

[@robertfonovic3551]

@@bearcubdaycare great research. but how many are available to rent ? LOL

[@mauriceharting5877]

Charge your EV at work or at your business.

[@Michael-yi4mc]

Live over a radioactive radon testing site in Nevada.

[@Pneuma40]

Lame talking point.

[@scoty_does]

Legacy auto is in danger of sitting on the side lines as the future passes them by.

[@robertfonovic3551]

Legacy nokia kodak blah blah blah

[@chillfluencer]

Legacy auto is a threat to every country it is parasiting in and on.

[@singed8853]

Toyota just had the best 2 years of profitability in its history. 2022 and 2023.

[@scoty_does]

@@singed8853 The future is EV's. At some point that future is going to speed up and Toyota specifically is deeply intransigent.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

@@scoty_does The future is a balance of EV's and ICE. We're just yet to find out what that balance is.

[@JoeyBlogs007]

In theory an EV should ultimately be cheaper to manufacture than ICE vehicles. The manufacture of the actual IC engine is more difficult to automate for one, where as automating production of electric motors and batteries better lends itself to automation.

[@fredbloggs5902]

They already are

[@blogattacker]

No, the key is in the battery tech,

[@Horus070]

I have an EV for just about 4 years now. I love it, but I know its limitations and I’ve gotten used to it. But then again I live not far from work and do my errands nearby. I just need to recharge once a week, unless I decide to travel farther than my usual routine. Never needed to recharge outside my garage.

[@KingLutherQ]

Toyata had a good run with the Prius between 1997 to 2012. But in 2009, Akio Toyoda made himself CEO and started doing dumb things. Example: Toyota Mirai - 2014 to 2022 R.I.P.

[@avdp9095]

The new Prius is an immense succes, Toyota is investing more than 100 billion dollars in Bev's. They will even change tge production development to AI design and gigacasting. They are magnificent

[@bruceburns1672]

Dumb things, hardly, go and order any Toyota and see how long you have to wait to get it, no other manufacturer has this dumb thing hanging over it, one model about 2 years, RAV here in OZ, 6 months, yes real dumb.

[@upsidedown5618]

You are 100% correct

[@upsidedown5618]

@@bruceburns1672I used to work for Toyota for over 20 years I know how they work , the long wait is to keep the price up , when they were here in Australia if the demand was there they would increase production

[@avdp9095]

@@bruceburns1672 in Europe we always have to wait for our new car.....because, when ordered, it us not manufactured yet.... . Delivery time between 4/5 months up to a year. Demand for Toyota cars is immense, tgey cann't keep up with the production...

[@ConversionCenters]

The largest manufacturers assume they can manage the market as they always have. They can make EV's whenever they want. There were 3,000 carriage and cart makers in the US in 1903. By 1920 there might have been 200.

[@1voluntaryist]

In 1901, the car had 1% adoption. In 1913, it was 99+%. By 2029 the ICEV will be history.

[@robertfonovic3551]

@@1voluntaryist in 5 yrs ? your of your rocker

[@danharold3087]

@@robertfonovic3551 Sounds fast but market disruption is fast . Of course we need to get off our butts and build the chargers and educate people to the fact that most will only use fast charging when traveling out of town. Th bad PR from the Oil companies are effective.

[@tonyspiegel6771]

Legacy auto makers have earnt that name. They have missed the boat and will be fondly remembered in history.

[@johnb7794]

@@Markcain268 electric will be the cheapest and best value... that's why ICE will die or become niche.

[@williamwoo866]

Newcomer that don't know about EVs are missing out. The idea of solar panels on my home in SF Calif means I almost don't pay for electricity and I charge my Tesla Model 3 Standard for free with so little maintenance that it's a no brainer. Once more people adopt the EV car, they will be mad at the dealers that put out false information about EVs ignorer to maintain their ICE car business. It's only a matter of time and America looks at countries like Norway and how Europe is going with more solar and wind power that the world can truly save money on transportation plus the benefits of living in clean air. It will be in the history books that yes time does eventually do take the right course and go EV.

[@mauriceharting5877]

Electric power is now and growing in the future ... you are absolutely correct.

[@Gazza-rv8ud]

Yes we also have rooftop solar in Australia to charge out Tesla Y and about to fit a Tesla Powerwall. The amount of misinformation being spread mainly by guys fearful of EV's is surprising. None of them have any experience with EV's other than what some other guy has told them but doesn't stop them talking nonsensical trash.

[@kennyloong90]

new ev with V2L gonna save you powerwall too

[@snowranger69]

Really hate that pg&e is screwing ev adoption with the highest power prices in the mainland us

[@prilep5]

That no brainer is because you can afford a solar panels and electric cars. People use public transportation don’t have money to feed their family many are homeless or live in a car. Your solar installation 15kw cost you 150k$ car at least 60kw your wife and teenagers want one 2x or 3x. Even if i want to buy electric im renting where I am going to charge- you’ll say superchargers. That is not cheap and it has potential to become more expensive when one day they will start charging pick surcharge plus degradation of the batteries. Resale value drops like Mercedes 20k$ a year.

[@chicagollama]

Great update

[@Jaw0lf]

Paying Tesla for credits is crazy thinking. It means you have less money to finance updates and Tesla now have a lot more and can innovate faster!

[@tysonn4736]

I'm sure BYD and Tesla are happy to eat up the market share these other companies are leaving on the table.

[@bobwallace9753]

I looked, but couldn't find, the amount car companies pay to purchase carbon credits. One site, without documentation, said about $3k per vehicle. If so, that's half of the $6k loss. Think about how many years Tesla suffered losses before they were able to scale up to profitability.

[@elduderino7767]

carbon credits are to offset ICE not EVs, the 6k loss figure sam mentions here is based on legacy EVs not ICE so the likes of toyota are still making profits from ICE even after offsetting with carbon credits, they probably aren't building EVs because they can't do it profitably atm they might be waiting for a new standard in battery tech, which makes sense with LFP and now sodium ion coming in full commercialisation in the past couple of years - even EV specialists like Telsa and BYD have to invest massively to make the switch, so it seems like an ideal time to transition also you have specialist battery companies like northvolt which legacy can use to temporarily delay the massive capex of building out battery tech infrastructure, less risk but a loss in long-term competitiveness due to lack of vertical integration, but you mitigate massive risk in the short term, especially if you go all in at the wrong time you'd think with time in market and existing infrastructure legacy automakers can offset lack of vertical integration of battery tech and still remain competitive but that remains to be seen, but maybe that was due to lack of off-the-shelf options, now they exists in the form of BYD and northvolt so who knows, might see some massive changes in the next couple of years as legacy catch up

[@1voluntaryist]

They legacies are NOT just way, way behind, it's worse than that. They have big debt and have failed to even come close to Tesla or the Chinese. Moreover, they are falling behind daily and need not one miracle, but many big breakthroughs. "It's all over now, baby blue."

[@danharold3087]

The government wants car companies to build Zero Emission Vehicles. To that end the created the ZEV credit system. Ford and GM could have and should have gotten the hint. Instead they opted to buy credits. Now who's fault is that. Tesla had to learn to make cars. They did. They were also building a product without an established market. They sold them.

[@neildolan7177]

People who live in units or only have street parking will not be charging at home. No idea where you get 99%

[@christophertan3195]

u dont need it if infra is there

[@antoncojo2854]

Don't think that the average person will be driving in the future, the working class will be expected to take public transportation, bike or walk... You will own nothing and be miserable !

[@jamesmcneal1821]

My best friend in CA did most of his charging at work, and it was free for him. As EVs pick up market share, charging infrastructure will need to improve for all Americans.

[@williammeek4078]

People who own cars keep them somewhere. That is where they will charge.

[@neildolan7177]

@@williammeek4078 🤣 my point is the presenter is saying 99% of people charge at home. This can never happen & is not true.

[@GORT70]

They’re playing the long game. They’re betting that the technology will allow lower production prices as the technology matures. And it will, it’s just a ‘when’ thing.

[@hanswitvliet8188]

EV sales growing that rapid in the USA? Forget it. The growth in EU is only for a small part responsible by attractive models of green motives; only because of the hideous fuel prices. And China wants only to reduce its dependency upon oil.

[@DrDave_63395]

Sam. You should read The Innovators Dilemma by Clayton Christensen. Clayton was a professor at Harvard Business School and examined why New Technologies cause Great Firms to Fail

[@dennisd9804]

Very good points in this video; 500k in China is a number I've heard as well for profitability. Regarding the BCG study, 40% is a solid percentage! IONIQ 6 is one of my favorite vehicles. ~9% to 20-30% in 18 months sounds about right in the U.S. Regarding "EV demand waning" (LOL), it's all about specs, technology, and pricing. If an EV is struggling, that means one of the above is not competitive. Thanks, Electric Viking!

[@glenndjubilee]

The OEMs will never catch up, IMHO, unless they become what they aren't. A technology company which Tesla is. They happen to make the best car in the world as you and I know. Even if they do they would have to merge to get a foothold in battery tech., robotics, chip production, solar power and I could go on. Ford solar panels? GM solar panels? Stellantis space program? It'll never happen and it's too late for them.

[@1voluntaryist]

EXACTLY. Bottom line: They don't have Elon Musk!

[@mikeosgood3846]

@@1voluntaryist Elon is not a god. He's just another Edison.

[@user-zo2pc5lu5q]

@@mikeosgood3846 blasphemer 🤣

[@1voluntaryist]

@@mikeosgood3846 Edison was an immoral jerk who used dirty politics (a redundant term) and reneged on his promises. It cost him a partnership with the Da Vinci of energy a century ago, Nikola Tesla. Elon is the opposite. He inspires the best and rewards it.

[@kevendog8246]

There is a fundamental principle of business called "opportunity cost", the basis for investing in any enterprise; "For what price progress"($?) Because there is no payback/return until the product comes to market, particularly in the case of new technology, that can make you uncompetitive. There is a lot of money sitting on the sidelines waiting for winners-and-losers[Buffet/Berkshire >$150B]. The winners, like the "Magnificent Seven" are already peak valuation. So buying the best 'cash-poor' losers is an "opportunity cost" to maximize profit, with lower risk; "pennies-on-the-dollar".

[@michaelketley1252]

Good stuff!

[@electricviking]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@timcory4455]

The average price of the top ten electric vehicles in the US is about $53,758, with an average of $48,430 for the low end trim of each model and $64,936 for the high end trim of each model. Where you can purchase a New 2024 Toyota Corolla for around $24,000. For the average consumer the price of an EV has to come way down for it to be appealing for most to consider purchasing.

[@jamie-ck6js]

Over 90% of US buyers are still buying ICE. Toyota's share price in the last 12 months is up 107% by being very cautious on EV. Even with Tesla, where I live there used to be a waiting list, not anymore, they are available now, despite the discounting. The demand will surely come but it is not there yet, for legacy auto the numbers are just not enough for them to get too involved.

[@danharold3087]

OIl and natural gas are working hard aka spending money to ensure that BEV is a bad word in the US.

[@jamie-ck6js]

@@danharold3087 But even if true, if you were CEO of a company, you are not going to bankrupt it by making a product 90% of people don't want to buy yet. In 2030 yes, maybe, but even that is unknown at this point. For example, where I live the cost of public charging is very expensive, far more expensive than filling with gas. Therefore if you live in an apartment then there is simply no advantage at all to owning an EV, only downsides.

[@kennyloong90]

if you remenber how fast kodak and nokia phase out

[@danharold3087]

@@jamie-ck6js All the legacy needed to do was to continue BEV development. Maybe 1 car with low production numbers if that. You don't learn how to build better BEVs by lobbying congress. But if you do get that compelling design you can crank up a line. Yeah the cost of public charging being high relative to gasoline is not the free market at work. Oil controls the gasoline and Natural gas controls the power plants. Great way to keep people buying ICE. It will take time but when apartments w/o charging fail to rent landlords will install charging or sell them.

[@Klargus]

It was 98 percent 5 years ago. Change is happening fast. Imagine where the sales will be in 10 years. Also, US is kinda slow in most other major markets EVs have much higher share

[@ilollipop100]

EV's only make sense in countries with excess electricity. Otherwise hybrids are the way and Toyota wins that one.

[@yggdrasil9039]

I love the ioniq6 style. They're just too expensive for me. If they were around Toyota Camry price I'd buy one.

[@dhamagami]

Thx Sam! Great job covering: scale, consumer aversion to EVs, EV mfg risk, EV mkt share & Legacy's failure to overcome them. Tesla, on the other hand, succeded. Accordingly, the info you provided supports Elon's strategy of scale through price cuts vs short-term profits. As the latter is what Legacy chose.

[@jeremiahcook6617]

I feel many have postponed vehicle upgrades because of the crazy market at present. If Tesla can introduce the $25,000 model and are able to oroduce large numbers it will be the best selling EV ever.

[@robertfonovic3551]

possibly. but the model does NOT exist

[@danharold3087]

@@robertfonovic3551 Does not exist as a production car. I am sure it has existed as a virtual car for some years. Undergoing continual improvement. They are building the physical production line in Texas so I would expect they have or soon will have early physical prototypes of the car in the works. In part it depends on how many new things Tesla introduces with this car. Some of the stuff was tested in the CyberTruck. But what past that. The chassis casting for a start. But if it takes an extra year and results in a better car that Tesla can sell for less. Worth the wait. But hope not.

[@ouethojlkjn]

The model Y is already the best selling car in 2023. Not the best selling EV the best selling car.

[@raymonddsouza8948]

One huge factor in Tesla's favour is that they are constantly implementing new ways to reduce the cost to produce their cars, from sourcing/recycling batteries, through material costs, efficiency on the factory floor in production, reduced number of parts, etc. So, as other car companies are just starting to produce EVs (and at a loss), Tesla is already making them at a profit, and is constantly jumping ahead with each vehicle produced. They don't even wait for the usual yearly cycle, they simply implement improvements on the fly, as needed and as soon as possible. Legacy car companies, with the burden of dealerships, factories set up for ICE production, union agreements to adhere to, and quite slow to implement changes in their products and processes, simply cannot keep up.@@robertfonovic3551

[@therebel5320]

​@@ouethojlkjn no its not. mg4 ev is the best selling car in both australia and germany for 2023.

[@astounded4546]

Interesting, but it occurred to me here (in the USA) that while EV’s are growing in sales, they are not nearly reaching projected volumes because our government is attempting to force a market transition from ICE to EV, yet didn’t fulfill infrastructure obligations. Some companies made the leap to abandon ICE in favor of EV’s like Ford. They were manufacturing greater volumes of EV’s based upon expected demand only to have the rug pulled out from under them. While government incentives can be tolerable, and sometimes beneficial, government mandates have no place in the market.

[@robertfonovic3551]

agreed. and taxpayer funded subsidies are worse.

[@danharold3087]

Ford did a 2nd rate job on the Lightning and Mach e. Ford as admitted mistakes were made.

[@terryward1422]

The preported new batteries from CATL and SK may be cheap enough and dense enough to put an end to consumers concerns regarding range and charging speeds. Lets make sure we revisit this same issue in 12 months.

[@ohyesitsme]

You say 99% will charge at home but what you forget is that there are millions that have no off road parking so 99% is a misleading figure, like most of your blogs.

[@markdc1145]

Do automakers go for long term profits or long term vision? Legacy automakers all have geriatric board members who only want one thing: to be profitable one quarter to the next. There is absolutely no incentive to invest heavily on new and disruptive technology. Yes, they all make a few EVs but it's just window dressing. Already future regulations have been dialed back in the US and EU, bending to the pressure of auto makers, unions and dealerships. When push comes to shove, it's obvious who has the real power.

[@michbenny1363]

At least Toyota will only offer hybrids for the next Camry. It Honda and Toyota alone offer only hybrids, that will go a long way to fuel reduction.

[@whowhy9023]

Plug in hybrids are worse for the environment than ice cars. They typically also consume more fuel than an equivalent ice car… Most people just can’t be bothered to plug in for just a few miles of electric range…

[@transsib]

40% are considering to buy an EV as their next vehicle? I would bet that this is not even remotely true, at least not in the US. While I know a lot of people, many of them interested in my decision to drive a Tesla, I have yet to meet a single(!!!) person who seriously considers buying an EV. I’m predicting that most OEMs will scale back their EV plans to an absolute minimum and that they will quietly ramp the development of ICE vehicles back up.

[@robertfonovic3551]

that 40 percent figure may well be true, however there is a difference between considering and making an actual purchase. i have considered mowing my lawn today ,but its not going to happen. lol

[@danharold3087]

Considering and doing are a world apart. Ramping up the ICE cars will work for a while. Then they will not meet emission standards. They need to be working their butt off on BEV development.

[@gpsfinancial6988]

1,189,051 people bought an EV in USA last year, so there must be some interest.

[@ohyesitsme]

I reakon governments will revise their ZEV mandates as they see that most auto manufactures will not be able to meet the targets as consumers still have no faith in EV's

[@tesla_tap]

@@jprt3270 - One reason Hybrids are doing well - more and more automakers are making the hybrid variant the only choice so they can keep there average MPG up high enough. Has less to do with demand and more with what they allow the consumer to buy. It's also far easier for them to make a hybrid than a good EV.

[@markedwards4879]

It’s a volume game - scale up to make profit or burn cash on each one sold. The latter pushes you into bankruptcy.

[@sparkysho-ze7nm]

Definitely is not a effective business model

[@bananadane]

The ionic 6 looks amazing! And the numbers on it are great too. What a shame that it's not selling

[@antoncojo2854]

It starts at 57000$ Canadian, that is not affordable, especially for a Hyundai. Imagine a company like Daewoo selling cars for 5000$ and then a few years later expecting customers to pay 60000 for an electric version

[@justinr9753]

You can lease one for $239 down and monthly. I actually considered it until I saw World Car of the Year on their website, seeing that it was in the same category as BYD to win the award they gave to the i-Pace so it doesn't seem like they give it to good cars.

[@Harrythehun]

Hyundai and Kia are great for the perception of selling their electric cars. They have really been delayed deliveries to many customers, to the point that people have bought other cars. A win win for them, not loosing as much money as being perceived as popular and selling out and delivering many cars.

[@randy74989]

Hyundai and Kia are not ready for prime time with their EVs and are overcharging customers for low quality. Do not buy.

[@stefan2796]

@@randy74989 Prices of their EVs are competitive. And they have many happy customers, including taxi/uber drivers.

[@wgs256614]

Nailed it.

[@mrmawson2438]

Morning mate

[@ActivityPhoto]

These projected sales numbers will never be met unless the charging infrastructure is improved dramatically. You will have some areas of the country. The USA am speaking about that may hit those numbers, but the majority of the country will not.

[@virtual-viking]

The US is following the same S-shaped adoption curve as all the other countries, albeit with a couple of years delay compared to some other countries. One such country being mine. Here in Denmark, right now about 50% of new cars sold are EVs. Here you can charge at the supermarkets, curbside, workplaces or even at other people's private homes using an app. Still, most people charge at home. People without EV experience tend to think you charge an EV similarly to how to fill an ICE car at a gas station. In reality you only do that when you go on a road trip, which for most people is a couple of times a year, at most.

[@geoffeaton3928]

I think batterys will get super cheap and if any car maker can get them cheap enough they will start making money.

[@tesla_tap]

BYD and Tesla are already profitable making EVs. One key is making the car lighter, so you don't need as large a battery to get the desired range. Taking an obsolete ICE platform and stuffing in a battery and motors, makes for a very inefficient design that requires even more batteries. The costs will never be competitive.

[@ISuperTed]

I do love this image of paying Tesla to help them make better/cheaper EV’s and put them even further in the lead. It’s a crazy model but that’s what Toyota and others are thinking of doing!

[@rogerfroud300]

This next few years are going to set the die for Legacy Car makers, it's going to decide whether they survive and what size they will be in future. They are going to have to understand that the way they currently design and manufacture cars isn't going to cut it. Farming out much of what you produce to third parties is throwing away profit that needs to be kept in house. Their pace of development is way too slow for this new reality, and that's going to be extremely hard to turn around.

[@tesla_tap]

Motortrend just release a dual-motor duel with the Model 3 LR Highland, Iconiq 6 Limited and Polestar 2 Performance. Tesla was #1, Ioniq 6 #2, and Polestar #3. (Spring 2024 issue).

[@evitoonbundit2453]

Legacy considers going full in EV as betting the farm, but are still in denial that their current farm is burning down. Still having painted themselves into that corner it may well be far too late already. So that leaves them to enjoy the ICE ride while it lasts as the only option left.

[@Funktastico]

ICE cars price hikes , but EV price cuts everywhere

[@ouethojlkjn]

Yes first the media complain EVs are too expensive, now they claim they are too cheap.

[@Fanta....]

EV makers are not listening to their customers. they want cheap cars that can do local runs around town. 20k max. Instead they are selling overpriced turds in an inflationary market where nobody can afford to buy them.

[@windfall35]

Legacy automakers (unlike start ups) still have to pay the costs to design, develop, build, market, maintain and retool for the 90% of the automotive market that start ups don’t have to worry about. Legacy automakers have decades of product out there that must be maintained and warranties. Legacy automakers have decades of former employees who are entitled to retirement pensions and benefits. Legacy automakers have unions and operate in some of the most expensive jurisdictions in which to manufacture high tech products. Most of these legacy manufacturers are operating in jurisdictions which are phasing out coal fired generation in favour of less emitting and much more expensive alternatives. Energy is a huge input cost to manufacturing. Most of these legacy manufacturers can’t sell the EVs they make…and lose money on every unit. All of these unique features are highly valuable to the societies that have these organizations. Once destroyed by the EV mania, these societies will be much poorer.

[@Odinscrow1962]

Surely the startup manufacturing costs always reduce profits for a considerable period? Perhaps 10 years. Pharmaceutical industry reports losses for 20 years until products get on line. It’s about the long game.

[@elinys2843]

And that’s the whole reason there’s a smear campaign going on concerning Chinese EVs. Don’t know it’s the case in the US or Australia, but here in Europe for sure.

[@tesla_tap]

No smear compaign about Chinese EVs in the USA, since there are no China brands selling here (yet). Only Tesla is the brunt of smear campaigns from oil interests, dealers and competitors.

[@blogattacker]

Everyone is losing with every EV sold, even Tesla. That is why the market is highly subsidized and receives regular money from the states. They survive by financing.

[@Thereshallbelight]

These companies make back the money through their affiliated finance companies that provide hire purchasing at high pretty high interest rates. Not many of us can cough their lump outright to pay for a car.

[@wswwsearch]

Things are not going well for Tesla. Between bad press about the electric vehicles themselves and the chaotic whims of Tesla CEO Elon Musk, Tesla's stock value has dropped this year by nearly 30%. Tesla's sales have gotten so bad that the company has resorted to advertising - something Elon Musk famously said he can't stand. "I hate advertising," Musk posted on Twitter, now X, in 2019.

[@netgnostic1627]

The Ionic 6 looks like somebody took a BYD Seal, cut off the back end, and grafted a 911 back end onto it

[@dangosypethau]

and that's being generous

[@ivalterbaptista2305]

Agreed. That’s one ugly car.

[@arleneallen8809]

350 mi of EPA range is tough to come by so far. Mercedes EQS, Tesla Model S, Lucid and maybe a couple other German models can do it. Lucid isn't a sane choice anymore unless you're ok with owning a car you won't be able to get parts for. It would be nice if people could get over this range thing. It's really mostly about charger availability and charging speed for long range travel. Urban dwellers have a huge advantage in not needing much range, so they can get much less expensive EVs. Chinese cars are all hearsay so far. EPA testing is the minimal standard, and the auto magazines come down even harder on range in their own testing.

[@dollarmerchtree4587]

I think the range anxiety comes from the reports of the early EV buyers and comparison with ice vehicles. Instead of charging often, they are used to filling up and driving until near empty. Any EV research shows that the true range is not even close to what you are expecting. 300-mile range becomes 240 miles at 80%, then 240 miles becomes 200 miles with normal highway driving. Not to mention the charger locations can cause extra stops because of availability. All we see is delays when driving EVs on the highway. But it is true we worry more about the 5% highway driving vs the 95% everyday driving. This should change whenever we get more charging options.

[@robertfonovic3551]

YEP. I would consider buying an EV with a 200 mile range if the charging infrastucture and recharge times were as good as ICE. However its not, and may never happen.

[@stevehan8157]

It’s counter to the corporate culture of legacy OEMs to take the risks necessary to dive in with both feet into EVs. They risk alienating their supply chains for ICE with whom they have long term contracts. Moreover they don’t have the engineering to design software-based EV platforms to compete with Tesla and other EV only brands.

[@roberto.gallegos]

I think when blue oval city is done, ford is going to ramp up production and there be sales will go up a lot.

[@Arthur-zz5cu]

My high end EUC costs $4000 new and it's all wheel drive. I charge it with sunshine Beat that. It's a King Song S 22 Pro.

[@Clyde-2055]

How many people even know what an EUC is ? And even fewer care …

[@FoamCrusher]

Averages are meaningless in this context. You need to know, at the minimum, the amount PER manufacturer and even better would be the amount per model, like MachE, Lighting, Lyriq, Blazer EV, etc. If GM hadn’t made the stupid move to tie themselves so tightly the to the Ultium battery chemistry, a chemistry that was out of date before the factories to make them were even built, they could have partnered with CATL and be at least breaking even per car until they could get their software debugged and start producing cars at a price and volume where they could make money.

[@davesy6969]

This is why manufacturers start with the luxury/performance markets. They can add farkles to justify the increased cost.

[@chillfluencer]

07:41 - July/August 2024 - BYD and CATL halving their battery prices...

[@ramblerandy2397]

While I would agree with you, Sam, about practically every other legacy automaker selling BEVs, it particularly grinds with Toyota. Why? Because Toyota traditionally leads. Where Toyota leads, others follow. They've brought many improvements to the masses, from Hybrids to super reliable motoring with less servicing. Toyota also has had a dream which was to go from ICEVs to FCEVs through clear steps which they planned from decades ago. Simply, it went ICEV > ICEV Hybrid > ICEV H2 > FCEV. The last two steps they have been experimenting with for several years, race testing the combution H2 engine, and testing the market with their H2 Fuel Cell vehicles. They are heavily committed to this step by step progress. And Toyota doesn't like shifting from the plan. So, for them it's not about profits, it's about dictating the future of transport. Plus, Japan was committed to going H2, though I'm not so sure now. And you can bet that Toyota's darling friends in the Oil/Gas Industry are backing Toyota with every anti-BEV movement they make. The problem the O/GI and Toyota have is the lack of H2 infrastructure. The O/GI want it for transport, industrial, domestic applications. Toyota wants it for transport. Nobody wants to pay for it when the numbers are so bad against straight electricity, supplied by renewables. You'd think they'd change, but their sheer stubborness has helped them succeed in the past. To be honest, we need to be aware of them because they are ramping up their resistance, rather than pivoting to cleaner energy.

[@banana-st1fq]

EV in the US is done. only Tesla and many Nokias

[@clroger4]

This scam is almost over 🎉

[@justinr9753]

Instead of comparing all EVs losses compared to Tesla you should be comparing all EVs compared to regular cars, then it's EVs that loose money.

[@thumper1747]

OEMs are including EV related amortised investment costs in these numbers, they would do this when assessing the financial performance of any other ICE models. Unrealistic data.

[@clroger4]

Golf carts with zero resale value

[@Only1_Rudeboy]

Imagine I spend over 300.000 € for my company to buy VW Cars. They become cocking, annoying at the local store and I had so many repairs to make, I drove me crazy. Then I need another VW T6.1 for 70.000 Euros. They told me I can get one in about 1.5 years ! - Then I bought a Tesla within 4 days for 40.000 Euros and I am carrying my stuff in a trailer. Works great so far and within 8 month I drove about 35.000 kilometers.

[@ainschuntayleuhn1147]

$50,000 is way beyond the affordability of Million’s of People.

[@tesla_tap]

I'm sure millions of people can't afford a car at any price and use public transit to get around. There are used EVs for $20K now which may be more affordable for some. $49K is the average new car price (USA), and there are plenty of new EVs priced well below that.

[@walid7885]

30% or even 20% in the US is unlikely. Cost is too high and the average American is too poor. It can happen only if Chinese cars enter the market.

[@thewolfdoctor761]

How do they determine $6000 loss per car sold? If a company spends a billion dollars to build an EV factory, then after the first car is sold does the company say they are losing almost $billion for every EV they sell?

[@twostate7822]

Exactly right. That's what the anti-EV news sources love to report. E.g. Ford loses $60K on every EV they sold was a big headline for months.

[@mauriceharting5877]

The formula is actually pretty simple ... You add all material and labour costs and compare this to the sale prices. The building of the factory and its equipment is a one time investment that is paid for from the profits the company makes. If the company loses money they will go bankrupt. Pretty simple is it not?

[@christopherhamilton5557]

@@mauriceharting5877but is that what they are doing?

[@thewolfdoctor761]

@@mauriceharting5877 That can't be true. How can material and labor cost more during the early stages of building a car compared to 5 or 10 years later when it is "profitable" ? That doesn't make sense, especially if you consider inflation.

[@danharold3087]

@@thewolfdoctor761 But it is. If your car is popular as demand grows you buy the supplies to build it in larger lots for less. Maybe you improve the car and pull some of the cost out.

[@rodmitchell831]

Thanks so much Sam

[@electricviking]

You are so welcome!

[@nfzeta128]

In other words legacy auto makers are too spoiled and don't know how to make an actual investment. Too accustomed to guaranteed or heavily subsidised investments or easy ones the government have already done all the heavy lifting for.

[@rolandblock2530]

I’m part of the new potential EV market segment. Have always bought Honda and Toyota in the past and drove to 200k miles each. My next car will be the $25k Tesla when available. I will keep one ice vehicle for road trips, but use the EV for daily commuting. I will charge overnight and not care much about charge time and range. Cost savings could be significant when factoring in the high cost of basic maintenance for the ice vehicle.

[@tesla_tap]

It can be a good strategy to have both EV and ICE to start to get over the concerns. Almost all owners I known who start with both an EV & ICE find the ICE sits unused and they end up using the EV for everything. Just more fun and less cost to drive the EV. I got rid of my ICE after it sat for 3 months and I used it for about 10 miles to keep the 12v battery charged. Been EV only ever since and never regretted it.

[@andreschapero3615]

Arcimoto, Tesla should buy Arcimoto, electric and fun vehicles at a reasonable size !!!!!

[@dirkp9999]

Just driven all across France on Motorways. Availability of fast charging is good. Peak travel time for easter holidays and I did not have to wait anywhere. More chargers are still bring build. However, 99% charging at home sounds high. Drive through any city and it looks hard to achieve this given the infrastructure. What are European cities doing to support EV charging at home?

[@kaxin1367]

In Portugal every new building has to be prepared (ready to install) for EVs.

[@Popdog76]

Think you misunderstood he said a typical EV driver does 99% of charging at home. The average of current EV drivers being those that have the ability to charge at home

[@rgeniec]

That’s AFTER the $7,500 incentive.

[@GNiessen]

Aptera is looking to be profitable after just 6000/year. And they will have 400 miles of range and be under $40k.

[@FriedChairs]

Those numbers are meaningless until they actually start shipping product.

[@robertfonovic3551]

Aptera... the trycycle coffin.

[@danharold3087]

@@robertfonovic3551 They say they will crash test the production units. Wait and see what happens.

[@HLC64]

Is it fair to say current ev are mainly for city driving. Yes if the real highway range is 500km then inter city driving is possible. At the moment battery is still too expensive That is why lately, Toyota and Lexus hybrid sale are high. Eventually how much ev can take over hybrid cars is questionable because charging in many countries are still a rare occurrences and if they manage to put in more charging station many countries do not have enough electricity capacity.

[@geraldbutler5484]

A 70 year old woman from Queensland Australia drove right around the coast in an EV five years ago after her husband died. She did it easily and many places she stopped for the night were impressed and gave her free charging. Now we have alpha male’s quibbling about how scary buying an EV is.

[@HLC64]

@@geraldbutler5484 try that in other countries mate!

[@HLC64]

@geraldbutler5484 Can you do that in other countries ... if there are not enough charging station there you just cannot do it .... Ha ha No changing no travel

[@ouethojlkjn]

Tesla has a very popular and profitable, well established global supercharger network. It’s easy to do manufacturers should’ve done it a long time ago. They are just waiting for some kind of magic to happen.

[@geraldbutler5484]

@@HLC64 No oil from the Arabs, no travel. Countries have to build more charging but 90% of charging will be done over night at home.

[@chasf3433]

Without doubt there will be a lot of EV development work going on at Toyota. They will simply not produce them in large quantities until they can produce an EV that has the required long term reliability and make a profit. Until then they will rake in the profits from hybrids, trucks etc.

[@ouethojlkjn]

I noticed that Toyota is the most indebted company in the world. So they wanna get a move on - maybe it’s just too easy spending someone else’s money?

[@john1701a]

​@ouethojlkjn That debt is an asset, not a liability, since a big chunk ofit is financed sales.

[@ouethojlkjn]

@@john1701a Last time I checked, the word Debt means Debt. It does not mean Asset. A Debt means you owe money to someone else. I don't go walking around claiming my Mortgage is really an asset because I have a house in North Wales that covers the debt. Sure, the debtor will take your assets off you to recover their money, thats different. Toyota will have to refinance this debt based on current interest rates. the easy fat years of zero interest are gone. Along with Toyota and Co. if they are not careful.

[@john1701a]

@ouethojlkjn Depends on what column it is listed on the balance-sheet.

[@danielking2944]

Those who can’t change at home don’t have to go to high speed chargers. The level two charger is nothing more than a range receptacle like most people have at home. If your car gets 3 miles per KWH you don’t need much time to replace the energy used for a nine mile round trip to the fast food restaurant or retail store . An hour’s worth of charging at 50 A x 240 v is 12 KWH. That’s 36 miles of range so 15 minutes on the charger in the parking lot covers the energy cost of the trip. If the store charges $.20/KWH ,that’s $.60 for the trip. Bring your own cord ,leave the camera on in the car to catch copper thieves, and roll the dice. The store owners should be willing to install the charging port and recover the expense through the small mark up on electricity. It’s a good way for them to attract customers also.

[@Carl_in_AZ]

Just Saying - Buying emission credits can lead to a death spiral. In 1990 Intel's market share was 72% and TSMC was 10%. Today Intel's market share is 5% as they buy emission credits to add FABs to existing sites and TSMC's market share is 53% without the need to buy any emission credits.

[@mitsu.hadeishi]

Not Hyundai-Kia: they've announced they are cash flow positive on all their EV models even with the incentives and price cuts they've done

[@xaero98]

Can you make a video about Xiaomis new EV?

[@mobayguy]

Hey Sam, Hope your foot is healing well! As for Toyota, no matter all the gloom & doom being wished on them, the fact is... Toyota Motor Corp is an immensely smart and powerful market leader. In my humble view, they are intentionally choosing to pay the lesser price on the road to transformation. Smart. And when it comes to what most consumers Truat, hybrids, Toyota is right there in that sweet spot. Smart. When they move, it will be the right time for them. Cheers

[@ouethojlkjn]

They are certainly number one at something - spending someone else’s money. Toyota are the most indebted company in the world. VW is not much better in third place. Time is running out.

[@tesla_tap]

I worry when Toyota finally offers compelling EVs, it will be too late. They have already given up the China market. Seems like they are giving up the US and EU markets too. I suspect they will do well in Japan continuing with Hyrdogen and ICE, but that's a tiny market. Maybe they will do well in Africa?

[@mobayguy]

@tesla_tap I think it's fair to say that none of us, me first, know what Toyota's detailed strategy is, but clearly, they're up to something. At the simplest; let others spend to the right solution and place in time, then use the "too big to fail" approach along with their manufacturing & marketing excellence to catch up. I humbly offer that consumers who've purchased Toyotas for literally generations will flow right back to them for two good reasons - Trust & Value. I firmly believe Toyota knows exactly what it's doing. Put it this way, if you had all of what they have, how would you approach the evolution of motorized transportation? Again, they'll nestle nicely with hybrids until they re-emerge into an EV leadership position. Great conversation 👍 it will be interesting to watch it all unfold in time.

[@ouethojlkjn]

@@mobayguy The tragedy with Toyota is they are EASILY CAPABLE of making a world class EV RIGHT NOW - for whatever reason, and it isn't waiting for some as yet undeveloped mystery secret technology, they don't want to do it. Similarly, when Herbert Diess tried accelerating the switch to EV at VW, he was unceremoniously sacked. As I mentioned, VW are third in the rankings of spending someone else's money.

[@mobayguy]

@ouethojlkjn Hi Ouethojlkjn, You make some good points & agree on the facts. In my opinion, Toyota has defined for themselves (and that's key), what will be the right combination of market conditions and technology they want to launch on scale. Also, and this is key also; despite what they say publicly, corporations are motivated by theor own self-interest, never the 'collective' good and not always what may seem obviously reasonable to we, the public. In summary, time will reveal Toyota's strategy, and the result will wither be success or failure if that strategy. Companies of such scale are always trying working the future and they either succeed or fail. Great conversation, Thanks.

[@caljeff2427]

EV Market is pretty much saturated in the US now hence why there is dropping demand.

[@robertfonovic3551]

yep. ev down 10 percent , hybrids up 10 percent. 2 more quarters like that and TESLA MAY BE AT 140US or lower

[@danharold3087]

Actually no. It is the rate of EV sales increase compared to expectations that is slowing. Number of EVs sold is still increasing just not as fast as some predicted. Sales of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles have fallen by an average of 6% each year since 2019., while EVs saw 142% growth. Seems that numbers are not consistent and the fall of ICE. What is consistent is that they are falling.

[@TheObserverIsTheObserved]

If you want to make all cars EV, the problem will always be the charging. Charging at home is just not an option for the majority of people.

[@fredbloggs5902]

63% of all occupied housing units have a garage or carport in the US.

[@TheObserverIsTheObserved]

@@fredbloggs5902 Exactly, in the US, not the world. And that still leaves 37% of US without at home charging. 61% if you only look at the renters. Who, most of them, can't even afford to buy a home, yet are expected to pay for an expensive EV?

[@fredbloggs5902]

@@TheObserverIsTheObserved 37% is NOT ‘the majority of people’. You just lie and lie.

[@TheObserverIsTheObserved]

@@fredbloggs5902 You do understand that US statistics only represent a very small part of the world's population, right?

[@TheObserverIsTheObserved]

@@fredbloggs5902 And let's say, that it is "only" 37% of the world that couldn't get at home charging. That is still almost 3 billion people, to whom it is not sustainable to have a battery-driven EV.

[@YTBoof]

I’m getting tesla ads on your videos, that’s pretty cool.

[@robertimrie3710]

I got an advert for a Toyota Prado. 💩 I want my 10 seconds back .

[@electricviking]

Glad you like them!

[@SlackJones1]

I don’t believe sales of electric vehicles will reach 30% here in the U.S. in the next 2 years. It’s a shame that Toyota doesn’t take EV manufacturing seriously. They build very reliable ICE vehicles, and could build great electric vehicles if they really set their minds to it.

[@tesla_tap]

Hard to say what the timing will be. Here in San Jose, EV sales were already 25% of new cars last year. I expect the mid-west states will the be slowest to adapt due to the common mindset that gas is king and few people care about pollution or climate change. In Norway new car sales are already at 90% EVs. Other countries are moving ahead at a rapid rate.

[@TheCostofAutism]

You actually have it backwards most automakers actually right around Breakeven with their Eevee sales the problem is when you factor in the capex which is pretty much a one-time expense that's where the massive losses come in generally in the world of manufacturing every time you double sales you increase profitability by anywhere from 5 to 10%.... everyone knows this but when Ford has all the dealers telling them hey we've got enough EVS on our Lots they're not selling they have no choice but to cut back production and the more they cut back production the more it actually ends up costing them per unit a car like the ionic 6 is a perfect example the ionic 6 is about the same price as a Tesla Model 3 however the model 3 is about the same size as a camry inside while the ionic 6 is about the same size as a Corolla. So people look at both and choose the model 3

[@davidlloyd1526]

Any car manufacturer that currently has an electric car offering will be fine. There's 5 years until its starts to get hard to sell ICE cars, which is plenty to catch up to Tesla (in fact Tesla currently has stiff competition).

[@lancpudn]

The BEV manufacturing model legacy auto has is defunct, It's dilly-dallied for years hoping the transition to electric vehicles would disappear & now hasn't a cat in hells chance of competing with Chines BEV auto-makers, I have zero sympathy.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

I just don't get how EV's cost more to build, than an equivalent combustion car. Take apart just an engine, lay the parts out on a table, and count the number of precision moving parts there are. Or, take apart a modern transmission, and let's get a parts count on that. then, let's get a total cost on the emission controls components of a combustion car. With an EV, you're getting rid of the engine, transmission, and pollution control systems. The savings there should be more then enough to offset the cost of a couple of very simple (albeit powerful) electric motors, and a pretty good size battery. The difference in cost with the electronics isn't as much as you might think, it's much easier to electronically commutate a rotating magnetic field, than it is to maintain perfect fuel/air ratio, optimum ignition timing, and apply just the right amount of exhaust gas recirculation, to make the engine deliver the performance, while maintaining emissions within acceptable limits.

[@johnhoover7869]

Must be cost of batteries and engineering new production methods. EVs not quite as simple in real life as it seems they should be. Remember as well how expensive flatscreen LCD TV's were at first.

[@js69927]

It's not just about the materials and labour, it takes a mammoth amount of person hours and $ to transform entrenched multi trillion dollar companies that have been around for donkeys years. Factories (closing old ones, opening new ones), tooling, supply chain, hiring people who know what they're doing, dealing with unions, training service and sales departments not to mention the products have to be reliable and something people want to buy.

[@drakepayung7204]

Just like it cost 20k a night at the emergency ward.

[@js69927]

Good analogy ​@@drakepayung7204

[@MudflyWatersman]

No no no no no no no no no no. Most people will not charge at home. Most people park in the driveway or on the street and will not have the capability. They will not pull out long extension cords to charge every day. They want the ability to do so...... But they will use fast charging at convenient places almost exclusively. The average person is going to be much different from the early enthusiastic adopters

[@tesla_tap]

You can install an outdoor outlet (and many do) to charge in the driveway. Most EVs come with a 20-24' charging cord. The average person quickly finds out that with EV charging at home, it takes 5 seconds to charge (plug in) and paying 1/3 the cost of gas. Avoiding wasting 10-20 minutes driving to and fueling at a gas station is a strong motivator too.

[@MudflyWatersman]

@@tesla_tap you're talking about slow charging overnight with a little tiny extension cord... Medium charging at home will require pulling out a heavy heavy duty extension cord....240v...30-50 amp. People who don't park in the garage right next to a charger are NOT going to do that every night and then put it away every morning.... Most people will need 50 ft to 100 ft.,.... You can forget about it being cheaper.. it will not be when it's taxed for road taxes.... It will end up being more expensive guaranteed... Because there's a sheet load of new infrastructure that it has to pay for. Then they have to pay to put in the receptacles.... And charger at home too... Most people are used to going to gas stations on their way to work or home every single day.. they're on virtually every corner.... Half of America stops to buy beer on their way home every single day...... If you put the chargers in the sensible places... Existing convenience stores and gas stations.... it's not a big deal. If you're a total moron and you put them in out of the way places ...nobody will use them.... And you're going to have much slower adoption.

[@tesla_tap]

@@MudflyWatersman - Lots of variables. I have two Supercharger locations that are closer to my home than gas stations (although I don't need them). Around hear in suburbia, maybe 1 out of 500 homes have a driveway longer than 20 feet. I've seen plenty of EV owners attach a Wall Connector (with 24' cable) outside of the garage and park and connect with the car in the driveway. The Tesla Wall Connector is waterproof. Installation costs will vary a lot depending on the wiring. installation costs are typically $500-2000 and there are often utility credits and IRS credits that can defray most of the cost. I'm sure there are situations where the ideal connection point makes it too costly, but it's not the norm and often easier than people expect.

[@MudflyWatersman]

@@tesla_tap given the choice of having to drag out an extension cord at night..... And put it away in the morning...... Or stop at a charger for 5 minutes while getting a cup of coffee..... I'd take the charger and coffee. Being able to charge at home is definitely key...... But it's not the end-all. There's simply times you need to go somewhere now and your car doesn't have enough charge..... It has to be convenient to recharge it,.... It's actually no different than refuelling with gas.

[@tesla_tap]

@@MudflyWatersman - Takes me 5 seconds to connect at home. It's easy even for those that park outside - maybe 10 seconds if you have to go an extra 10 feet. Really not an issue. But nothing wrong with those that want to Supercharge instead. The key is there are so many ways to charge and each owner picks the best way for themselves. Note that the best cost savings come from charging overnight when the rates are very low. Charging at Superchargers is cheaper than gas, but not as much.

[@scotduckrow8524]

The Model 2 better be out by early 2025 as well as the Juniper this year or Tesla sales growth will be stagnant.

[@ronnythompson9115]

Ionic 6 is the most hideous looking car I have ever seen. Its not a mystery why it isn't selling.

[@jgarbo3541]

Embarking on a new product, with obvious initial losses, in what reserves are for - to tide them over the start before profits come in. Problem is legacy makers haven't innovated, like Tesla. They follow the same old path, hoping to succeed. No way.

[@rogeranderson8116]

If legacy carmakers actually have production lines working and are working towards lowering costs overall via some kind of learning curve (like Kia/Hyundai), falling battery prices might save them. Shuttering production lines until they get a better plan like GM/Toyota did will drop them out of the race.