Legato is IMPOSSIBLE - Let's Watch Yuju Wang and Stephen Hough to Prove it

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[@PIANO_LAB]

These are two fantastic examples of how when a pianist plays, it can sound and look perfectly smooth and legato but in reality not be. Because true legato on the piano is all about illusion. We have to make a percussion instrument sound like a singing instrument!

[@renegrosheintz-laval9146]

That's exactly why I feel we need to put all the instruments with strings that are hit with a hammer into a category of their own. They can do things neither the percussion nor the string instruments can do like, as you say, making a string that is hit with a hammer sound legato.

[@cherylmeadows2150]

Is legato about connecting or combining the notes. Years of piano helps people to connect the notes.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

Most pianists would describe this as relying on or needing the sustain pedal, but the beautiful “illusion” you’re referring to is about tastefully choosing the volume of each note, slightly accenting roots and thirds or whatever is best for the piece, finding the melody in big sweeping arpeggios. It’s not truly the issue of finger legato. It’s the grace of expressing an arpeggio.

[@billiederham8398]

Excellent illustration. Thank you

[@SE013]

Finally! This is the biggest myth that needs busting, and the amount of reactionary responses in the comments prove this need. People forget that legato is not the be-all and end-all. It is a tool to produce a certain effect, 90% of the time a singing tone. Playing finger legato does not guarantee a singing tone whatsoever. In fact, I often see that it's merely a lazy excuse that beginners use to tell themselves that they are making the piano sing, when in fact, it isn't at all. The most important thing is to LISTEN. Both finger legato and pedal legato can but not necessarily produce a singing tone. One just has to listen and find the right sonority for that passage in question, and most professional pianists use both, yet piano teachers emphasize way too much finger legato as if that should be the go-to.

[@infinitewisdom9619]

Excellent video and explanation!

[@johncgibson4720]

Thank you so much. My father and other teachers tried to teach me the hard way 40 years ago. I took piano lessons for only 1 year. Mystery solved today. I could play the entertainer at the height of my music career.

[@matthewclarke5008]

Tobias Matthay describes it as when playing fast, you use staccatissimo touch with finger only and arm completely poised.

[@joseprojo975]

I’ve been taught legato since I entered in uni and now I can say it does matter. The difference is audible and it doesn’t matter how I frase a motif, if it’s not played legato, it won’t sound fully legato. It’s about transfering the weight of the whole arm through each finger equally and actually leaving no air between notes that u can achieve a good frasing, and I’ve only heard such marvellous frasing and true legato from one or two pianists, bc u have to have the ear rlly trained in orther to hear the difference. One time I heard it was coming from Horowitz, playing Chopin’s op 17 n4 and the second one from Martin Garcia Garcia playing the second movement of Chopin’s second concerto. In conclusion, it might look legato but it doesn’t rlly sound like it if u pay attention.

[@johnsarkissian5519]

I fully agree with you. But I must add that you don’t even have to fully pay attention to hear the difference. It’s audible right away. It’s the difference between a performance with clearly articulated phrases, breathing, shading and a performance that’s mainly disguised banging on the piano with the hope that the pedal would hide the rough edges.

[@paulshaw17]

I agree with you, and to a certain extent with the one other apply so far. I had the same discussion with peers when I was in music school, and I can certainly hear the difference. The imperfections of covering up with the sustaining pedal are not as noticeable in a large concert hall, but they are obvious close-up, and certainly on a recording. Of course, common sense, a supple, relaxed technique, and consummate artistry ultimately rule the day

[@isabellefisher8790]

We tiny handed pianists can only envy the ability to play Rachmaninoff, without faking legato or huge stretches, so please don’t burst my bubble of joy!! I guess I should have chosen a different instrument, but was too drawn to the sublime sonority of the piano.

[@Pachi27]

Yuja can let go because she is using pedal...I would imagine teachers teach legato technique (connect each note as long as possible before letting go) because maybe some pieces dictate to not use the pedal or it would be inappropriate to use the pedal, etc.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

No absolute rules; all about interpretation and expression, do what you need to to realize your vision. Good pedaling is a developmental skill, combining sounds before they decay, usually within a chordal harmony, too much holding of pedal accrues too much undesired sounds, "bleed." Pedal goes up and down as needed, unless it is written in and that may be editing not expressed by the composer/arranger. The idea of absolute rules is what gives "classical" tradition a bad feel.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

@@DavidMiller-bp7et A very good and well-stated point ! In this video -- case in point at 0:55 " ... because they incorrectly think that this is the best way to develop a fine technic.

[@igotbit9454]

I’ve been starting to see this too. All the expert jazz pianists Ive been watching online play the piano like it’s a percussive instrument

[@aBachwardsfellow]

The piano is quite versatile in playing music that ranges from very flowing to very percussive -- jazz certainly makes full use of the more percussive side of things!

[@PIANO_LAB]

Great observation!

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Lessons getting really good. You are adressing some more advanced techniques, which should have been covered by teachers of earlier stage students. Such as this is absolutely basic in establishing good technique without the confusion of teachers who are themselves confused, perhaps just relaying what they were taught. Kudos. Piano is percussion machine, sound with decay, no way to keep up the intensity, pedal is the best tool to create the illusion of legato, sound new sound vibrations sounding louder than the decaying ones. None of my 6 in person teachers with glowing resumes covered these types of considerations, i. e. "technical tools" to get the job done right. Concentrating on interpretation will never develop technical nuance. On the flip side, concentrating on technique will provide the perameters for one's interpretive expression. Go, Craig. Love that shirt, man, I have a few like it.

[@tommunyon2874]

The first statement made, was one of the first things we were told about the piano in school: that it is a percussion instrument.

[@PianoJules]

Thank you for this, I think finger legato is the reason I get stuck in the keys and can’t play fast. I excited to try this in my practice session this evening.

[@matthewclarke5008]

Also my previous teacher said to use legato fingerings, with staccato touch, while keeping close to the key, giving the illusion of legato.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

The "illusion of legato" too often focuses only on what's happening on the instrument and neglects to consider the roles of human auditory anatomy and physiology, and of the acoustics of the room. While yes, at the instrument there are varying degrees of gaps between the production of one sound, its cessation, and the production of the next, the human hearing process includes the perception of the onset of a sound, and a residual "saturation/memory" of a sound (beyond the time the sound waves are still present). Couple this with the acoustics of the room, which may actually sustain the presence of the soundwaves beyond the time of their actual generation. Similar to a chef who prepares his cuisine with the aid of his own palate -- but in the knowledge that other person's palates will respond similarly, the artistic pianist prepares and adjusts his performance with the aid of his own auditory palate, and serves up piles of combined tones and overtones layered on a plate of acoustics to deliver what he knows the ears of his listeners will perceive. So -- is it an "illusion" of legato? Or is it actually received and perceived as legato? It seems the disparity is based only on the mechanics of operation at the instrument, and the resolution is better understood by paying more attention to the effect that is being created rather than the technical assessment of what it isn't. In one sense, the most important instrument in any performance is the human ear, and it is the consumate artist who knows how to play it.

[@GlobalStats]

It will depend if you are using the pedal or not

[@JustFiddler]

i see

[@rivers5320]

You mentioned that there is no need to keep the fingers pressed on the keys for the left hand arpeggio passage. But I can remember pieces where the provided fingering specifically asks you to use finger switching and stuff to keep the keys as much as possible, which I guess is encouraging sustaining the pressure on the figures, which is kind of awkward and unnecessary since you have the pedal on. For example the middle section Chopin's funeral match. What's the difference between this and that?

[@PIANO_LAB]

Depends on context. When the composer asks for notes to be sustained, that is another story. Sometimes you can use the pedal, sometimes you have to use your fingers to a degree. The larger point in the video is that making something sound legato at the piano is more about using your ear to match sounds than physically connecting notes. And that you need to focus on your arm shifting rather than your fingers connecting "keybed to keybed". In doing this it often feels as like you have many little leaps constantly.

[@TheSlowPianist]

I find that tone and, to that end, good hand-balance to be the key to legato. Here by hand-balance I mean being aware of centre of weight, if you imagine a line separating approximately between your index and middle fingers and roll your hand along that axis. Good fingering / finger - swapping ties into this as well.

[@peter5.056]

Once you play a note, it's yesterday's news. Staying stuck on a key will absolutely lock up your technique faster than anything.

[@PIANO_LAB]

Yep! If only I could get more people to understand this 😂.

[@Pablo-gl9dj]

Sokolov is the master of this

[@vonPunki]

@@Pablo-gl9dj --- I imagine Sokolov pedals when he often raises his arms to nose level

[@1389Chopin]

Great vid. I would say finger swapping can create some interesting moments. Also holding some notes can also be interesting. I find this effective to bring out certain lines. The section in Beethoven's no. 23 1st - after the long run down to the stormy bass section. Its written in the music but fingering the right hand to hold the melody is imho important.

[@JGS007]

Finally! An excellent look into how the “illusion” of legato can be achieved by focusing on the evenness of notes played, and more importantly, the accuracy of “space” between notes to further enhance the trick. One must always be aware that the pedal does NOT create legato. It merely covers up the space in which the fingers are not engaged with the key in order to facilitate fluidity and technical execution without the chance of getting stuck in the keys and therefore immobile. I bet if these pianists played these pieces without any pedal, their sound would be almost always “detached” so hand positions can be assumed easily without disrupting the line. I wish someone would provide an analysis of a pianist playing a work without pedal and compare the actual time engaged with the key and time spent out of the key. I bet most would be surprised how much time is spent disengaged with the key as opposed to actually engaged with it. I purposefully practice without pedal to check the evenness of everything, then apply careful pedaling for the smoke and mirrors.

[@strippins]

It would be interesting do analysis like this of someone playing Mozart

[@Assopiano98]

You don't know how much I argued with my piano teacher about this. I totally agree with you. When the pedal is pressed, the only thing that matters is when and how you press down the keys, not how you left them, so all the "legato" obsession that older pianist (and teachers) have is simply a waste of effort and energy (I'm assuming that the pedal is down). I also think that who says that is completely ignorant about how the piano mechanics work and they don't listen to the result. So summarizing: focus on things that can change the overall final result, not in things that absolutely doesn't make a difference at all

[@galimusic7164]

That's ok! In fact, we are plenty of examples in where famous pianists (I mean really big names) do "legato" (with the keys) not only with pedal pressed down (which is a waste of effort as you say and an extra trouble for the playing and freedom of the fingers etc), but they even do it in excerpts on the upper treble keys where the piano has no dumpers at all!! That's very interesting in the way it shows most pianists has no idea at all on how the action or the piano works!

[@Assopiano98]

@@galimusic7164 Exactly! There are a lot of examples from Zimmerman Brahms second concerto or Michelangeli Chopin recordings... And the following explaination: "But they are geniuses, they can do whatever they want, you have to make legato with fingers" I think it's a wrong claim. I also think that "legato" in the very upper treble keys is very difficult to understand what it is because the sound disappears almost instantly so you do not have so much left to "link" to the next sound.

[@RuecianGray]

I have always found it kind of odd that people put a stigma on using the pedal. The pedal is part of the instrument, if it were wrong to use it, it wouldn't be there. "You should always play legato unless stated otherwise" seems like a very reductive way of teaching. Because the pedal is always going to be available to you, and to learn to play without it is likely to DISUADE you from using the pedal to its best potential and allow you to be as efficient as possible. Like he said in the video, beginners often feel that is necessary to "connect" every note to the next. And while that does sound GOOD, it also can form a bad habit of needing your hands to feel "connected" to the keyboard. But the best players do not keep their hand connected, they float it above, and only reach down to tap notes as needed. "Floating" not "Walking". I remember when i was learning (self taught) recently, i was playing a piece. And i was trying to connect every note and not use the pedal while i practiced. And i was struggling with some wide passages. And i noticed that it was much easier to play this wide passage if i did not focus so hard on trying to connect every note, and instead rely on the pedal for its intended purpose, and glide my hand over the top of the keyboard rather than walk across it. But then, at the same time, i remember thinking "No, i should not rely on the pedal, using the pedal is a crutch." Looking back on it now, it was the piano communities fault that i viewed the pedal as a crutch; because it is so stigmatized in a lot of ways. I correctly identified that i should be playing more loosely and relying on the pedal to do its job, and i felt shame for using the pedal. It's important to learn how to play legato, because it is necessary sometimes. But you often see people telling people that they should ALWAYS be playing legato unless the piece says otherwise, and i believe this is likely holding many people back from being as efficient as possible with their motion. I believe that over-emphasizing legato/less pedal playing is holding beginners back from advancing as fast as they might otherwise. Because beginners end up feeling lost when their hand is not touching keys because that is the only way they have ever been taught to play. Sure, they will get some quick short-term gains, but then they need to unlearn the bad habit of keeping their fingers connected to the board at all times when they finally need to play faster and wider passages.

[@NarendraU23]

Lots of factor come into play here. It depends on the composition. A contrapuntal passage requires finger legato to work. While a huge leap or arpeggio requires pedal. Most of the times it's a combination/alternation of both, especially when the melody has lots of movement with non chord tones.

[@renegrosheintz-laval9146]

There is quite a large group of instruments that have one discreet, fixed string per note and the string is made to vibrate either by a hammer or a plucker. They are "percussed string" and keyboard instruments. Actually, I think they are in a category of their own, apart from wind, string and percussion and I find it very strange that they haven't been categorised in a class of their own. Same goes for the Organ that stands alone with elements of wind and percussion as sound producers and with a keyboard for playing them. But pianos aren't closer to cymbals than to a violin, as you say. They have strings like a violin but there is no brass or stretched hide to produce sound like the percussion instruments. Still, the way you are going is important: the pianist must be aware that she strikes a string once very shortly and everything depends on the way it is hit and how long one keeps the damper off the string.

[@PIANO_LAB]

Of course, you can argue what instrument is the most closely related to the piano. The point is is that people incorrectly think that the violin is closely related because it has strings like the piano. But this is completely false. The piano uses hammers to strike strings, which means it's a percussion instrument. Which means it's closer to symbols than it is the violin. Just because the piano and the violin have strings don't mean they're related. I have two arms and two legs, you have two arms and two legs. Does that mean we're related? No! I'm also speaking to the nature of how sound is produced. The percussive effect of the piano means that it can't produce a singing legato the way many instruments can. That's basically the whole point of the video.

[@PIANO_LAB]

Question: does the organ actually have any percussive elements in its production of sound? I don't believe it does. The keys operate valves which in turn pump air through pipes. I don't think any of that is percussive. I could be wrong though. Never cared for Organ much!

[@chriskemp466]

often keeping finger legato helps phrasing because you have to move your arm and hand in a smooth flowing way

[@komponents7977]

The hammers drop. Connecting notes is a psychological trick for slow practice to increase accuracy and dynamic control for regular tempo

[@vincentbuonora9416]

Beginner here…looks and sounds like playing each note over the remaining vibrations of the the previous. So, to get that continuing sound from each note, one must “play the key gently”? Plus gently glides, leaps, to new positions. Do not be “locked” into a finger position. Tell you how I’m doing in five years…

[@nezkeys79]

I always hated when people say "play the piece without pedal" to get legato

[@jamesjenkiinson5882]

A brief definition of legato for non-muscians at the beginning of the video would have been helpful.

[@PabloGambaccini]

I have been explaining this for ages... ❤ and debating with other pianists... 😅

[@PIANO_LAB]

Yes! It is very important to understand the nature of the piano and how this affects how we play. The traditional finger legato approach needs updating!

[@PabloGambaccini]

@@PIANO_LAB it's one of the tricky parts of piano playing, that the resulting legato doesn't match the articulation. Many times I work an articulated non legato, in order to next poot the pedal over and get a sharp brillant sound, that if one thought of making with finger legato would be impossible.

[@miguelalonsoperez5609]

Very good analysis, in fact studying with finger overlapping may led to injuries on tendons as one don’t use the proper re-alignment of the wrist with each stroke. Many great professors enhance the non-legato technique as a basis of all piano interpretations and only let the true note superposition to finger pedaling (in baroque music for example, creating harmony with superposition of some notes without pedal and also in slow legatissimo phrases [as in Chopin Marche Funebre the D flat major part]) As the piano is a ballistic instrument (one has to throw the hammer against the string with a leverage mechanism, even minuscule movements of the arm help the fingers to accelerate, and also resist the reaction forces from keyboard: transfer weight directly from one finger to the next without relaxing may cancel this mechanism and also don’t let the last finger to properly relax. Some pianists like Glenn Gould still preserve the habit of exaggerating finger lifting to ensure the release of the key at correct time.

[@ronl7131]

Inimitable Yuja. Fantastic precision and energy. Has great voicing technique. Hopefully as Yuja matures she’ll develop the highest level of nuance ala’ Horowitz. Combination of touch & pedaling.

[@minmodulation]

As a guitar player, hearing about legato on piano made little sense to me when learning it... usually "smooth legato piano playing" just meant there was less empty space between each note, not that you somehow removed the percussive element (on guitar, that's usually accomplished by successive hammerons/pulloffs instead of picking each note, therefore removing any percussive sound).

[@gtd9536]

I totally agree with your analysis. Not only is it an "idiotic" idea not to use the pedal for legato, or to have more "air time" when playing legato. If you were to play legato the way you were naively taught, you can injure your hand b/c you may be stretching your fingers in a dangerous manner trying to physically "connect" the key presses.

[@davidcanalsgomez]

In my opinion, legato (as it is understood considering the percussive nature of the piano) exists. But it is not a tool for rapid arpeggio-like designs. Or not always. A good, effective legato depends on various aspects: ear training, weight transmission between keys, sophisticated pedal, wrist+elbow continuous movement, good phrasing, etc. When you reach that stage where you feel the piano as a string instrument because you have found arm flexibility and connect the keys as if their notes were being played by a bow, then you are closer to real legato. "We must forget that the piano has hammers" (or something like this), in Debussy's words. And it works, no doubt about that.

[@dnalesni]

So the idea of weight transfer (as in walking) doesn't make sense at speed since there is a "letting go" or "air time" between fingers.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Walking as he showed it is stepwise, scalar. These are leaps where one must change position. Weight transfer should apply in stepwise and leap motions. Scalar movements should be backed up, rooted in weight transfer. Try playing a melody with the same different finger going up and down.?

[@dnalesni]

@@DavidMiller-bp7et I didn't say that weight transfer was impossible or not done in any circumstance. I'm simply pointing out that it cannot be achieved in the sense of some weight resting somewhere at all times - as in walking - when there is an instant when no finger is in contact with the keybed. This applies easily to a wide-spaced accompaniment, as in the Yuja Wang clip, but also in staccato or non-legato playing of more scalar passages, as in the Stephen Hough clip. (So, to continue the analogy, running instead of walking...)

[@PIANO_LAB]

@dnalesni it's not really like running though because running involves pushing off of the ground. We don't play the piano by pushing off of every key. Yes, sometimes we can use somewhat of a pushing motion, but it's always coupled with weight transfer. I think the bridge and crane analogy is apt. When we are in contact with the keys, we are a bridge supporting and delivering weight. When we lift off the keys, we are like a crane, suspending the weight above the keys. No one ever said that we are always in contact with the keys with weight sitting there. Obviously you have to lift.

[@dnalesni]

@@PIANO_LAB Thank you for this helpful comment! I realized after I wrote "running" that the analogy only went so far -- I only meant it to apply just as far as running involves two feet being off the ground at regular intervals. Pushing/pressing all the time is definitely a harmful habit to have in piano playing! The analogy of walking breaks down, too, since in walking we're supporting our entire body weight. The arm weight transferred to the keybed can be modulated, and there's no possibility anatomically of using all of our arm weight anyway because of its muscular attachments. (This is described somewhere in Ortmann.)

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

@@dnalesni Main point, true that.

[@user-qz7gc3cu1i]

What is the name of the piece in the beginning please?

[@suryahitam3588]

It is the middle section of Rachmaninov's G minor prelude, a cool piece I wish I could play.

[@charlottemacdonald4167]

So beautiful and expressive requires legato technique. How would you teach that? The violin has a bow that easily plays snoothly, our challenge is more the staccato (the percussion). Each instrument has its challeges when it comes to these two sounds. Also each student's body is different. But the hand should never be forced beyond it's means. Yuga Wang may have large hands. I notuce her hand shape looks rigid at times. That may be a problem as she groes older.

[@johnsarkissian5519]

The difference between older schools versus todays’s piano players is exactly the overuse of pedal. I pedal as little as I can. Often, I only use the middle pedal to hold the bass note while being able to keep the upper notes crisp. Try playing Prokofiev like that. It’s a life changing experience.

[@PIANO_LAB]

I'll be honest, I think that's a pretty silly thing to say. Compare performance of Chopin by Rubenstein to almost any truly great modern pianist. The use of the pedal is certainly not that noticeably different. Sure, you can find old performances with less pedal and new performances with less pedal. It's called interpretation for a reason. And yeah, prokofiev didn't like lots of pedal. He preferred a dryer sound. But then again listen to some older recordings of his third piano sonata and then more recent ones. It's all over the map in terms of pedal use. Interpretation...

[@RuecianGray]

The pedal is part of the instrument. To not use it "Just because i want to use it as little as possible." Is basically admitting that you prefer to not use the instrument to its full potential and prefer to handicap yourself "just because". 99.99% of listeners aren't even going to be able to discern any difference at all anyways. There are definitely going to be times when its better not to use the pedal. But if its more efficient to pedal, you should pedal. Not force yourself to use it less on principle.

[@eddydelrio1303]

um at 06:52 the interval between "the first two notes" is a 9th, not a 7th. I know you were thinking 9th. Excellent explication!

[@PIANO_LAB]

Yes! You are right. Thank you for pointing that out

[@shubitoxX]

Pedal + Speed + Phrasing

[@legecla7302]

it does make sense ... I always follow a certain piano piece on their legato BUT sometimes it's impossible on those awkward fingering, so famous pianist do their circus techniques, and the pedal does the work.. huh! 😂😁

[@6foot7dad]

Music is an illusion

[@igotbit9454]

😂😂😂

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

@@igotbit9454 I was trained in conservatory as an opera singer. One day my director asked me what we are trying to do here. After he saw me hemming and hawing, searching for a decent answer, he broke in, "We are trying to create illustion." With musical elements we are trying to combine them into something bigger than the elements themselves.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

Life is an illusion ...

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

@@aBachwardsfellow One would certainly conclude that from watching media news, politics and religion.

[@mozartk453]

I basically agree. Then I noticed an omission. You (correctly) use a pedaled, arpeggiated LH accompaniment to illustrate how a legato sound can be created even with a disconnection in the fingering. But then you don't mention the very purpose of this LH arpeggiated accompaniment! It's to create the illusion of legato because the melody alone *cannot* do it on a piano (as a violin can). The beautiful arpeggios fill in the gaps in sound, such that the listener feels the melody line as legato.

[@argi0774]

Congratulations, you just discovered the sustain pedal

[@petertyrrell3391]

You are describing modern piano technique, which means more or less constant use of the pedal. However, this way of playing was frowned upon in the earlier part of the 19th c - constant use of the R. pedal was considered tasteless. Careful fingering was then more important. However, even under slurs, Czerny would give 5, 5, so even then a literal legato in the modern sense was not always present.

[@viggojonsell9754]

I find both these examples quite irrelevant. I have been taught that there is a distinct difference in dense passages at high tempo marked "legato", and more "melodic" legato. Of course pieces like this cannot be played legato in the sense of that you hold onto one note until the next but the sound is still bound, this is the idea.

[@andream.464]

Dinu Lipatti once said: I don’t do a thumb-under-the-palm passage since 20 years now!

[@PIANO_LAB]

Thanks for sharing!

[@matthewfisher44]

And by the way, the music is wonderful: I don’t listen out for “legato” when I am enjoying piano music. I don’t think “hey you, that tie didn’t happen”! OK, this sort of technicality is valid but it does ruin the pleasure. I’ll just tune out now, never to tune in again. I’m off to Arthur Rubinstein to see what he has to say, er sorry, PLAY😁

[@user-in8cj9qm2q]

Why does the Rach sound like ode to joy 😂

[@johnsarkissian5519]

As Schumann himself recommended, all pianists should learn how to play the organ. On the organ, the only way to play legato is finger legato. Once you master that technique, not only the baroque and classical but also the romantic and modern (20th century on) keyboard music can be played meaningfully without just banging about!

[@PIANO_LAB]

Who's banging about? Can you give me an example of a professional pianist that plays like that? I'm not really sure what that means. Also, was Schumann a pedagogue? No. In fact, his technique was so bad that he permanently injured himself. I'm not sure that we should be taking technical advice from him. OBVIOUSLY there are certain styles of music, like baroque, where the pedal is not used (at least not audibly). The point of the video is to teach people that true legato is not possible on the piano and that when trying to produce a legato, sound shaping is much more important than a physical connection. Rachmaninoff and Moszkowski wrote the music I'm talking about with the intention that it would be played with pedal.

[@biglake61]

Yuja Wang’s petite hands playing Prelude by Rachmaninoff with ginormous hands😂 she better let go and glide her hands to maintain the flow😁 great technique though to create the legato feel

[@boryssezhi]

6:54 iz nawta savinth, iza NAYINTHHH, mestir mann!!! 😮😂 ohhhhw deer.

[@melchestermodelrailway]

You need to watch an organist at work to witness true finger legato!

[@matt566]

Seems like a myopic lesson to be honest. You picked a fast song where you just can't hold notes for their whole duration accurately. Try watching a pro play Traumerei. Finger legato is pivotal to making that piece sound right. If you use pedal a lot instead it will sound bad.

[@PIANO_LAB]

Actually, the speed has nothing to do with it. It seems that you missed the lesson. I never said that connecting notes physically has no place. The point of the lesson is that the piano is incapable of producing a true legato as it is a percussion instrument. Following this point, I explain how physically connecting notes is less important in producing a legato sound then shaping what we're playing through the use of dynamic control and shading. Physically connecting notes does not create the perception of legato, as it does with all legato instruments (i.e. violin etc.). Physically connecting notes while expertly shaping them with Dynamics is what creates the perception of legato. And most students do not understand this. Most people incorrectly assume that all notes within a slur must be physically connected. But this is simply not how pro pianists play. Oftentimes they will not physically connect things, because it's either impractical or impossible, and yet it will sound perfectly legato. This is an invaluable lesson to learn. Not myopic at all.

[@matt566]

@@PIANO_LAB they physically connect notes that are feasible to do without sacrificing hand position and pedal ones that are not?

[@SE013]

If you watch Horowitz or Argerich play Traumerei, you'd see that they do not play finger legato throughout. It has nothing to do with speed, but everything to do with the kind of sonority you want. Traumerei is a good example of how people usually want mostly very subdued and smooth sonority, so many would indeed use finger legato. However, you'd see that both Martha and Horowitz break the finger legato (at different points, which show that they have different ideas of sonority regarding this work) at various points. You can try to listen and think about what they do this.

[@renegrosheintz-laval9146]

I have two observations that put your theory into question. Up until and including Mozart the only way to play legato was with the fingers because there was no pedal. Both Haydn and Mozart use notation to mark whether a note is to be played legato (slur), half legato (just the notes), or separate from each other (the staccato dots). Later, after the pedal became standard, Liszt's transcription of Schubert's song "Ständchen" has expressly marked that the accompaniment (left hand) must be played staccato throughout and with pedal throughout. This means that Liszt could hear a difference between legato and staccato with pedal. And Liszt was one great pianist (la Campanella, transcription of Beethoven's 9th).

[@PIANO_LAB]

Okay so first of all, obviously in the video I'm talking about romantic piano music. I'm not discussing baroque or classical. However, the fact still remains that the piano is not capable of true legato because it's a percussion instrument. This means that the way we think of legato has to change. Secondly, there's a huge difference between Mozart or Haydn and Rachmaninoff or Chopin. Mozart and Haydn is much less technically demanding. Chopin and Rachmaninoff was written in a very technically difficult way and was intended to be played with pedal. It is simply not possible to play most of the music of Chopin or Rachmaninoff without the pedal.

[@PIANO_LAB]

Also, of course the way you articulate a note changes how it sounds even with the pedal. Not saying the pedal can somehow cover up bad playing. I'm not trying to say you can play notes in any way you want and cover it up with the pedal. Of course, if you play notes staccato with the pedal you can still hear it. Because the notes will be more acutely articulated. My point is that if you go from one note to the other smoothly, using your arm, oftentimes, even without the pedal, you can't hear it even though it's not physically connected.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

Disagree. Finger legato is taught to children to make sure they know how to hold a note when they want to. It’s a tool, not the be-all-and-end-all. Nobody ever claims that concert level piano music relies on finger legato. They’re arpeggiating the whole keyboard. Of course it’s all pedal. What makes the difference is graceful dynamic contrast between the notes in big arpeggios like that.

[@PIANO_LAB]

What exactly are you disagreeing with? That a lot of teachers incorrectly think that focusing on a pure finger legato is best for young students? Or that they think concert level Pianists play like that all the time? Both of those things are true, I've rubbed shoulders with hundreds of other teachers and hundreds of students. It's a thing. Most people think like that.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

@@PIANO_LAB Traditional lessons teach technique first and expression last. So finger legato is (ideally) taught as a tool in the toolbox to be tastefully used years later, not as the bedrock of piano playing. Legato is taught as the opposite of staccato, so you learn both simultaneously, and years later you see staccato notes all along pedaled arpeggios in Beethoven and that’s when the students realize that they have to decide how much finger legato and how much staccato+pedal legato to use. If another piano teacher said to me that all piano playing is masterful finger legato, I would disagree too. My favorite piano playing is based on staccato notes: Steely Dan, Sara Bareilles, Carol King, etc. But if you really know lots of piano teachers that are fully tunnel-visioned about finger legato, I understand why you have to take the cultural counterpoint. I hope you would just also include the pop artists I mentioned in your examples, because they are perhaps equally important to what the piano can really do as an instrument rather than a pedantic teacher’s aid.

[@jacobus05]

​@@JohnNathanShoppercompletely agree and there are some composers through the romantic period and later who come back to purposefully obligate the use of true legato i.e. Debussy etcétera, either voiced legato or even unvoiced legato for notes that are held silently to co-vibrate or add depth to voiced chords.😊

[@renegrosheintz-laval9146]

Yes, absolutely. But for Mozart and Haydn you need this classical finger legato. So it's an integral part of piano technique.

[@anynhi]

I think “fake legato is even harder because personally I find them quite hard to practice”. It’s all about the psycho acoustic of human being. We must do it efficiently to not get tired unnecessarily, especially in a piano concerto. For the children, it’s more like exagerrated to force their finger work.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

While your point is understood, it seems to more of an exercise in semantics. A somewhat overly repeated and tiresome one. You're more or less stating the obvious regarding the use of pedaling, but presenting it almost as an either-or situation: 0:55 " ... because they *incorrectly* think that this is the best way to develop a fine technic at the instrument. The only problem here is that this isn't how professional pianists play. But -- how kind of you -- you did humbly make an allowance for professional pianists by saying " ... at least not most of the time" And at 5:46 - " ... a lot of times I've heard teachers telling their students the pedal cannot be used for legato you have to use your fingers -- this is in my opinion an *idiotic* idea and this recording proves it. For sure, it's possible that there are instances in which a teacher may unwisely advocate for a legato finger connection that, in fact, is "idiotic". That does not seem to justify throwing out finger legato as it seems you seem inclined to do. And I do not see how the Stephan Hough recording "proves" anything of the sort. While many of his fingers are not engaged in the melodic line, the connection between the thumb and the 5th finger seems to be quite legato. And even if it is not, could that not be an intentional non-legato phrasing (as is often done with octaves)? Yes -- in many performances it is necessary to use the pedal to connect physically disjoint sonorities in a quasi-legato fashion -- is that somehow news? It takes both. - to play legato using fingers-only, *the sound is sustained* --- by holding the previous key until (or in super-legato -- slightly after) the next key is played. - to play legato using the pedal, *the sound is sustained* -- by holding the previous until (or in over-legato -- slightly after) the next key is played. True finger legato with artistic application (not "impossible") produces beautifully-lilting melodic lines that would only be muddied by use of the pedal. While I "get it" that you're attempting to address an inappropriate approach of "trying to connect everything", yet teaching un-pedalled finger legato is neither "wrong" nor to be avoided -- it is entirely necessary. Yes -- "theoretically" there is "decay" between each note. A well-trained and truly artistic musician plays not only the piano but the human ear -- their own, and their listeners. Yes -- it is an "illusion" when compared to a "theoretically true legato" in which each note is exactly the same level as the previous note. But it is an "illusion" which, when well-created, is generally accepted as "legato. Some pianists are better at creating this than others. I suppose that a pipe organ would be the epitome of legato since it does not need to accommodate any degree of decay, and is not subject to the random anomalies that may occur with a wind instrument or string instrument player.

[@TylerHumphrey05]

Yeah I agree idk what this video is. I had an injury and have been using the Taubman approach w a teacher over zoom. He’s been helping me fix my technique. Hadn’t used my right hand in ~30 months or so until recently. Legato is still good and doable a lot of the time. In big jumps the finger obviously doesn’t completely connect. But it’s the sound that matters not the technicality. Legato is a good description of the sound you want to produce. That’s all. With proper technique (which I’ve been grueling drilling the last 7-8 months) the legato is just a part of playing normally. Idk why this video exists or what it’s trying to say. He needs like a comprehensive theory he doesn’t have. Combining rotation w lateral arm motion and shaping legato is no problem. Can even play faster.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

​@@TylerHumphrey05 Glad to hear you're taking good care of your technic (and health) -- I had to stop and rebuild my technic at one point too -- but it's well worth it, like you said. Also -- as you said -- " ... the legato is just a part of playing normally". It's as much disappointing as it is annoying that in this article he seems to feel like he has to put down finger legato in order to justfy how legato is played using the pedal. But it takes both, and most legitimate teachers would know that and teach how to do both. I'd like to see him put up a follow-up video on how to create the illusion of legato using fingers only -- without the pedal -- as that is a *very* important part of a pianist's skill set and technic. He kinda missed the boat completely on that one.

[@PIANO_LAB]

@aBachwardsfellow pardon the delayed response. Had to take some time to think of an appropriate response. I have now so here it goes. I must be honest, your comment perplexes me quite a bit. It seems that you agree with me for the most part but want to argue about the definitions of words. You focus in on certain statements while ignoring others, which are really the bulk of my argument. For instance, you focus in on my statement that professional pianists don't play a true finger legato most of the time. But neglect to even mention my statement about how the piano is incapable of producing a true legato. And yet it is this fact which is the bulk of my argument. Your comment is also quite disdainful and in another thread you call into question my legitimacy as a teacher. I'm not really sure why you feel the need to make such statements. Is it because you can't stand that there are other people who have different opinions? Quite valid opinions I might add. The other commenter on this thread mentions the Taubman approach - Dorothy Taubman taught these same ideas. Should I mention that I studied with John Bloomfield, Mary Moran and Deborah cleaver? These are all teachers of the Golandsky institute if you're not familiar. But I digress... I've heard great performing artists discuss that at speed crossing from one position to another in scales and arpeggios via the thumb becomes more of a shifting motion with the arm and not a physical legato connection. This is a fact that I can attest through my own experience. Interestingly enough, many other teachers teach this concept as well. The shift is so fast that, though there's no physical connection, you can't hear a gap in the sound. This is the perfect example of how professional pianists do not use a physical legato much of the time that they're playing even though it sounds like it. It seems that you missed the boat, I.e. the lesson. I never said that connecting notes physically has no place. The point of the lesson is that the piano is incapable of producing a true legato as it is a percussion instrument. Following this point, I explain how physically connecting notes is less important in producing a legato sound then shaping what we're playing through the use of dynamic control and shading. Physically connecting notes does not create the perception of legato, as it does with all legato instruments (i.e. violin etc.). Physically connecting notes while expertly shaping them with Dynamics is what creates the perception of legato. And most students do not understand this. Most people incorrectly assume that all notes within a slur must be physically connected. But this is simply not how pro pianists play. Oftentimes they will not physically connect things, because it's either impractical or impossible, and yet it will sound perfectly legato. This is an invaluable lesson to learn. And to the point about teachers insisting that their students physically connect all notes and not use the pedal to produce legato, this is the rule, not the exception. Most teachers insist on this. At least most very serious, "legitimate" teachers. Which I guess is why I'm not one. Legitimate that is... LOL!

[@PIANO_LAB]

@TylerHumphrey05 I bet if you'd watched the whole video you'd know. In any case you agreed with me in your comment. "Legato is still good a lot of the time..." I agree 100%. I realize that you said a lot of the time and not most of the time because you realize that that's often not true. As Dorothy Taubman taught, physically connecting notes is not what produces the sound of legato. But rather shaping of the musical line. The point of the video is to save people from having to not use one or both of their hands for 30 ~ months because of harmful technical ideas. I never said in the video that you shouldn't physically connect notes ever. But it is important to understand that physically connecting notes is not what produces legato as it does with other instruments. If you physically connect notes, you have to also shape the line to create the illusion of legato. Also, if you shape the line, you don't have to physically connect notes and it will sound legato. I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with to be honest.

[@PIANO_LAB]

@aBachwardsfellow I do actually demonstrate how to do "finger" legato... You'd know this if you watched the whole video!

[@alvodin6197]

Let's look at what the word means in Italian. Italian is my third language, and I'm not an expert but have basic fluency. Legato comes from verb "Legate", meaning to bind or connect. So , Legato means bound, connected, smooth etc. Now, with all due respect, this is arguing semantics. We might as well say, notes don't really exist, because humans invented the chromatic scale, we could made a scale of a million notes. This is such a Western problem, arguing if something is truly what it is. Legato means smooth in music. You can make something sound smother or separated, divided, which is the meaning of staccato. Music is not an except science, maybe if you could use physics to make an arguement, but I doubt the uploader is that invested.

[@charlottemacdonald4167]

She is playing octaves with her right hand and arpeggios with her left hand. Both are not legato. Yuga is more of a percussive pianist who gives less attention to phrasing. Try Rubenstein as your example to verify your conclusion.

[@RichardBarnett-hs1qy]

Why assume everyone watching this video knows what LEGATO is?

[@HopperDragon]

Google it before watching a video about it then.

[@markoartz101]

Anyone watching this video who is not a musician will get very little from it and anyone who is a musician knows what legato is.

[@RichardBarnett-hs1qy]

@@markoartz101 Is was there to learn.

[@markoartz101]

@@RichardBarnett-hs1qy well then, legato is the technique for playing a phrase smoothly, connectedly, without the perception of gaps between notes, something that most non percusion instruments can do easily but a piano, being essentially a precision instrument, can never truly achieve.

[@RichardBarnett-hs1qy]

@@markoartz101 Thank you. Yes, I could have googled it after the fact, or paused video to find out... But what you've just stated was exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks again.

[@Marco1281]

I disagree- or maybe we dont put the same meaning into the world legato. Creating a continuity of sound without a tiny break and without the pedal is totally possible and NOT an illusion of hearing. Once you have understood the physical sensation in the fingers to produce it, you can reproduce it more easily, as a beginner. Of course, each note is "dying" at the piano and the possibility of a crescendo on a unique note is not possible as in hhe violin. I suppose this is what you're talking about

[@PIANO_LAB]

Yes, your statement at the end is correct. That's what I'm talking about. The main point of the video is that people think of legato on the piano in the same way as on the violin: as long as you physically connect notes, you will have a smooth sound where one note essentially becomes the next. However, this is not possible on the piano because of the attack and decay of each note. The point of the video is to teach people that true legato is not possible on the piano and that when trying to produce a legato sound, shaping is much more important than a physical connection. Rachmaninoff and Moszkowski wrote the music I'm talking about with the intention that it would be played with pedal.

[@michieldpiano]

I am the master of legato. It is not a technique but a 6th sense.

[@nezkeys79]

"I see legato people" 😅

[@michieldpiano]

@@nezkeys79 😁

[@nanthilrodriguez]

accrosst

[@karlrovey]

In defense of "legato" fingerings, they make sense if your goal is to move to the organ (you used to be expected to have mastered the piano prior to learning the organ). However, there is a great deal of piano technique where it is impossible to use a true legato.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

Playing the organ makes full use of both connected ("legato" ) and disconnected (non-legato, staccato, etc.) articulations. In some instances, an intentional "over-legato" (holding the previous keys slightly while playing the next keys) is used to compensate for a room which has a poor acoustic (little to no reverb). But to your point, in finger substitution (replacing one finger on a key with a different finger while holding the key down) is an absolutely necessary skill in particular when playing the organ. This skill is also used in piano repertoire when a melodic a melodic line is wanted without overly-muddying the texture by using the pedal.

[@karlrovey]

@@aBachwardsfellow I've also found the sostenuto pedal rather useful for avoiding overly muddy playing.

[@aBachwardsfellow]

@@karlrovey Which is, of course, exactly what it is intended to do! 🙂