Legions Imperialis: Legion Rules - What's Hot & What Is Not

[@kglguy]

I want time to read over the full rules and play a few games before I draw any conclusions about the legion rules. That being said, I'm willing to say (even with only the current, limited, information) that the Space Wolves got shafted.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Love the VIth so a tad disappointed by that one. Though a single formation to protect your flanks might actually be really useful 🤔

[@silencealpha]

A well timed video, I’m thinking about this a lot atm while I decide on a legion to paint. I think your assessments are spot on. Ignore the whingers about it being too early, it’s the same people who will complain about a lack of content.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Ha ha. Too early for a tier list. For sure. Early assessment on what's looking spicy or lacklustre. Easy. What are you thinking??

[@silencealpha]

@@blackbriargaming5483 Everyone and their dog seems to be going World Eaters, Imperial Fists or Blood Angels. I’m short listed to Salamanders or White Scars maybe.

[@BeanFace-oj2en]

Im doing auxilia, yeah i may loose, but it will look awesome doing it

[@jasperG007]

The Imperial Fists trait is infantry only. Some of those weapon don't exist in model form yet. I guess this confirms a new infantry kit on the horizon? The Alpha Legion trait is pick 3 detachments for each Alpha Legion Formation. So you can have more than 3 detachments benefitting from their trait if you have multiple AL formations. It's quite powerful.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Gotya! Yeah nice. Definitely new infantry kits coming and AL will always be good 😁

[@andrewbakescakes9684]

Incoming underserved IF OPness incoming? Hope not. I am so sick of them.

[@totallycarbon2106]

The initiative lasts for the whole turn - so you get to move a detachment first as well as shoot first etc.

[@kylelewis9175]

They could have done something similar like what Battletech: Alpha strike does. After all movement and shooting is complete the destroyed units aren't removed until the end phase. Brings a lot of dynamic to the game, ya know?

[@kglguy]

​@@kylelewis9175I think there will be too many units on the board to use that method. Unless you're willing to have a ton of tokens around, it would be impossible to keep track of. It would also make putting units on First Fire orders pointless.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I can see where moving a detachment first would be both useful and a weakness 🤔

[@angelicdespot2735]

As I understand it, initiative lasts the whole turn. So you get to move a unit first in the move phase, fire first in the first fire phase and fire first in the advance phase. I think this is a strong rule.

[@matthewbentley1236]

​@@angelicdespot2735I'd disagree with that being strong compared to many of the other rules. Getting the first shot doesn't matter too much in alternating activations, and moving first is usually a disadvantage.

[@wesadie]

It's nice to see my Legion of choice the Salamanders getting a decent rule.

[@drguineapig8755]

Yeah I’m definitely going salamanders

[@Dennis3113]

The ultramarines one could get nasty once the astartes get access to template weaponry. As an Iron Warrior player i would liked to have that. Just imagine shooting with artillery with templates, and then rerolling 1 for the rest of the Formation, an Demi Company for example.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Of those templates don't just decimate whatever they hit in the first place 😅

[@Dennis3113]

@@blackbriargaming5483 Depends on the weapon rappier batteries might Use that to and Shooting with one detachment of rappier quadlauncher on an enemy detachment of 6 kratos might be usefull if you do this in first fire order and follow up with some deredeo dreads or your own kratos detachment.

[@escapo6895]

I think Ultramarines are on the hotter side of Not. Flat 17% bonuses to damage output under circumstances that are fairly easy to reproduce (especially for vehicles) are going to have more impact than the majority of the other legion abilities.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yeah. Look. Maybe it's even better than the Imperial Fists one? 🤔 But also... kinda boring 😅

[@escapo6895]

@@blackbriargaming5483 Well then, it's certainly on-brand for Ultramarines ;D

[@henryrodriguez6260]

I agree with 17 of your assessments. I think you are off when it comes to Emperor’s Children. Guaranteeing initiative when you need it is game changing. HOT!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

17 out of 18 is pretty good! 😄

[@matthewbentley1236]

Have you played many alternating activation games? Who goes first generally matters very little in them.

[@henryrodriguez6260]

@@matthewbentley1236 I have been playing alternate activations for over 2 decades (since Warzone/Chronopia at least). I believe you mischaracterize the impact they have. Now, in comparison to how much it matters in an I-Go-U-Go system like 40K, it certainly matters less. Nonetheless, initiative has an noticeable and quite relevant impact on the flow of the game (and, if you're good, the odds of winning). It is akin to playing White in Chess... it has a small but meaningful impact.

[@Pershoreify]

I think in general anything that increases your dps will be good so i would switch the ultramarines and sons of horus as hot.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Fair! I definitely ummed and ahhed. It just comes down to the impact of rerolling ones for me. In a gane with only a few dice and high to hit rolls.

[@perfidy1103]

I *think* you've got the Dark Angels rule wrong. It applies to formations which contain three or more different detachment types (ignoring dedicated transports), but then states that: (i) if all the detachments are infantry, gain phosphex and implacable, (ii) if all are cavalry gain outflank, and (iii) if all are vehicles gain nimble. The way I am reading this is that for the rule to apply you both need three different detachments, but they all have to be the same class: e.g. you could have Legion Tactical, Legion Plasma Gunner and Legion Terminators (three different detachment types, but all infantry) and gain phosphex and implacable. I think that if you were to take, say, Legion Tactical, Legion Predator and Legion Outriders (once they are released) you wouldn't gain any special rules, because you fail to meet the "all detachments are X" criteria. Maybe wrong though. It's not a particularly well written rule.

[@finlayrobertson1355]

Implacable may be very useful in stopping an enemy infantry detachment moving away to score in the next turn. Only one base needs to survive and your entire enemy detachment can't move till after their next combat phase

[@blackbriargaming5483]

You're not wrong! Looking forward to seeing how it plays out. Dark Angels may be my second force...

[@edwright6994]

Do solar get different cohort rules in this?

[@sephrus7784]

Death guard main to rad and virus the objectives and one detachment of alpha legion dreads to infiltrate tanother seems super spicy.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

It suuuure does!!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Might have to look at cool combos in another video 🤔

[@blkjet117]

The Ultramarine special rule is very good. Vehicles seem to roll their shots, one vehicle at a time. Once the first vehicle gets a hit, every vehicle after can re-roll any one's. Infantry and walkers seem to roll all of their shots together. If any of the shots hit, then you could re-roll all one's. This seems like a HOT.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Maybe!! We'll have to wait and see 😅 Thoigh I think a detachment will be considered to all shoot at once. Tank or otherwise.

[@totallycarbon2106]

Hang on, with that ultramarines rule, is it definitely per model rather than detachment? E.g if i had a tactical detachment with 5 stands of infantry - do I need to slow roll my hits incase the first stand gets a hit and then the remaining four stands can reroll their ones? Can imagine that being slow and annoying to resolve all your shooting if so.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I could be wrong but I believe you fire all models from your detachment 'at once'. So you'd need to fire with one detachment. Then you get rerolls for the other detachments.

[@stonethebear3806]

IRON WITHIN!

[@ElSWVisitor]

Wondering if implacable is more about keeping an enemy unit tied up with what would otherwise be a dead unit? 🤔

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yeah that's a very fair call! I was thinking about that after the video. Not insignificant. But Salamanders do it better... 😉

[@23nacho23]

If thousand sons kine shields is like the jink rule it will be good. The jink save is taken first and is unmodified by ap, any failures then go to normal saves so you get 2 saves. Kine shields are possibly a 6+ unmodified save and then a normal save for any failures.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I sure hope so!

[@jonijuuso7296]

What do you base this jink rule on? I thought jink worked like this too but someone claimed it is a save you need to pick one or the other. So either jink or base saves? I don`t know wich is actually correct

[@smellslikemachinespirit4255]

Very interesting assessment, thank you for sharing this!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

You're welcome! Thought it was worth getting this out early even with limited information.

[@douchenukem8235]

Dark angels are in the hot. What Phosphex does is that your oponent doesent get a +CAF when garrisoned. And Iron warriors isnt taht hot that you belive, its good but its not good for capturing objectives, its more useful for making objectives contested. The Shafted legions are Space Wolves, Thousand sons and Emperors children. The mhe is Night lords. Space wolves and Emperors Children is something you only bring in as minimum around 150points allied formation not as the base legions

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Thanks for the phosphex rules! Is it that they don't get ANY +CAF or just the +CAF from being garrisoned? The former is great. The later is a bit meh.

[@douchenukem8235]

Just the +CAF from garrison, but garrison gives you +2CAF. Having a +2CAF over your opponent on a 1 to 1 means around 74% win rate, and for example terminators will have +6CAF when garrisoned. Its easir to punch the building out then trying to punch them out. And by the way, Jump pack also gives you a extra +1CAF when charging garrisoned troops.

[@johnondich-batson9066]

Thousand Sons shafted again? Not surprised there. Gonna still rock them anyways.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Awesome!! How you building a Legions Imperialis TS force??

[@johnondich-batson9066]

@@blackbriargaming5483 Some core infantry detachments and dreadnaughts, supported by fast attack stuff (when it is released) and then some air and titan support. I also love predators and land raiders, but will likely have to wait on those too.

[@raygagnon1564]

So from watching a few battle reports it seems like being in buildings is a huge part of the mechanics. Infantry wants to hold them, they get garrison bonuses to being in them etc. That being said, i think raven guard deploying wherever including in buildings, alpha legion sort of the same is super strong. Imperial fists rerolling especial when everything hits on 4+ is great. Dark angels phosphex and implacable on infantry would remove the garrison bonuses making it more fair and likely to clear buildings seems balanced. Not super good not super bad. World eaters wanting to be in melee for rerolls is solid. I'm very happy a tons of legions have good rules. Rip night lords unfortunately 😢 killing command squads isnt really easy and if its done it may not affect too much allocating a few wounds here and there. Space wolves... Oof. If night lords are rip... Space wolves dont stand a chance... Unless you're playing against raven guard or alpha legion. Then still bad but less so.

[@warhq]

What's not hot = $335 AUD price tag on boxed set (obviously a little less through non GW). This for like 15 - 18% of 2 complete forces with no terrain...Still sold out in record time on pre-order, I think I need a 4th job ;)

[@blackbriargaming5483]

So much misinformation out there. The starter can be run as about 1600pt with Solar as the main faction and the Astartes and Warhounds making up the allies contingent. Now. No one playing casual games is going to follow the 30% allies limit. So now you're at about 1800pt. Second. I reckon 3000pt games are way too big. Reportedly they take about 4+ hours to play. I think 2000pt will be the sweet spot.

[@Munjan007]

I think your ratings fall off when you consider how legion mixing works on LI. From recent book leaks, which at this point are 95% confirmed, when building an army: - you declare traitor or loyalist, for first LI wave, this does nothing, you can mix any legion (even loyalist SoH). - you then select your main army. For astartes, you just declare 'Legion Astartes. - Then, for each of the formations you make, EACH 'Formation' can be from any of the Legions. As was demonstrated on the WD battle report, they mixed their main army with Death Guard and Emperors Children and got to use both rules and still get titan and solar auxilia allies. Considering the above, EC may not make for the best 'main' legion, but they make great support legions. Also, for wave 1, Air Detachment support White Scars sound terrifying!

[@Munjan007]

*by wave 1, im referring to the first wave of releases; outrider bikes and land speeders will be released on wave 2, as mentioned in White Dwarf.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Definitely! And I'll be making a combo video that'll really look at that concept too 😊

[@eli1525]

Great review - now just need to pick me a paint scheme theme!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

For which Legion?? If you're struggling to pick one I've got a video for that too 😋

[@eriknilsen3350]

Didn't see any solar auxilia rules here, thats gunna be a yikes for me dog.

[@minipaintingforyou]

I decided to pick Night Lords the day I preordered my 1st AT18 box, hoping they would release epic eventually. I‘m so happy, that my choice received such a thematic special rule 😊

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Rule of cool wins everytime 🥰

[@NapoleonicWargaming]

Poor DAs. We always get shafted.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Look. I wouldn't say shafted! They're fine. But not necessarily hot spice.

[@davidwasilewski]

The imperial fists and the iron legion seem to be the best

[@blackbriargaming5483]

GW all about that siege warfare

[@marenking1849]

Idc I'm playing Night Lords and Alpha Striking with Fire Raptors, bikes, and Javelins to get my legion trait to work.Ave dominus Nox!

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

Wining an I initiative that you need will win games I suspect quite a bit

[@blackbriargaming5483]

In a 28mm GW game it might. In this game, I don't think it will, which I'm actually really happy about.

[@henryrodriguez6260]

Nah, I play plenty of alt. activation games like Kill Team and Underworlds. Winning an initiative on a specific turn can break your opponent’s plan for that turn and may end up winning you the game. This is a huge bonus.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

@henryrodriguez6260 skirmish vs 8mm system though...? 🤔

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

wtched a few battle reports and there were a few times where 1 player really needed to do something 1st at the beging of a round and lost the roll and it cost them , same here , that 1 turn where you really dont want a unit taking a spot of lighting up a unit that you need can be cluch , certainly better then say white scars who's ability effects....nothing in game other then planes so far "note i like the white scar one for flavor and eventually it might be very good" @@blackbriargaming5483

[@henryrodriguez6260]

@@blackbriargaming5483 A detachment in this game is the equivalent of a single unit in these skirmish game (that have 3-15 units). Now, how many detachments will we be working with in LI is unknown, and will vary with the size of a given battle. I'll concede that at 3k (where, according to the WD BatRep, there are 18-24 detachments), that winning initiative may be less impactful. But one will not want or need to use this ability in T1 or T2. This will likely be a T3-4 power when the game is on the line. We'll see...

[@TeAXIIIT13]

Probably shouldn’t say something is “hot or not” when you dont know what half the rules are/do

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I reckon we know about 80% of the rules. Hot or not is so intangible and unmeasurable I think we can get away with it 😉

[@thundergoat421_6]

I think I'll still stick to Iron Hands..I'm stubborn.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

They are totally fine! HOT?! Maybe not. But very playable and you'll be happy with how they perform I'm sure.

[@marcmiddleton2277]

I plan on doing Sons of Horus primary and maybe a Death Guard detachment. I hope we get Arquitors

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Fingers crossed!!! We should do!

[@bradleydunn9663]

Getting the impression you don’t understand the rules and haven’t gamed any of this out, which really didn’t make this a very effective or informative walkthrough.

[@batteredwarrior]

"Combat" is ALL fighting, even at range. Close combat is what you are on about. 😉

[@Corusame]

I feel bad for Space Wolves 🥺

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I plan on making up some rules for this game for legion specific units, might redo the VIth's Legion rules while I'm at it...

[@liveanotheranime3526]

Painting mine as mercenary marines in the employment of Rogue Trader since I’m not going to any tournament and I am not going to pay $400-1000 eighteen times just to switch between a few lines of rules.

[@mic-drop-74]

This the new epic? Been out of the loop.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yeeeeep!

[@23nacho23]

World eaters is strong

[@finlayrobertson1355]

Oh you haven't read the book, you really should say in the video you don't know the rules so everything your saying is speculative

[@erics745]

The tokens are a real shame !!! We should get decent cardboard ones as replacement . Shame on GW !!!

[@troglodyte4207]

So basically Dark Angels can be a more Death Guard Death Guard, a more White Scars White Scars or a more Iron Hands Iron Hands Because of fucking course they can, their gimmick is having access to everyone’s gimmicks, and doing them better

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Ummm not really? They have the ability to enhance units that those Legions focus on. But in very different ways. Turns out Phosphex may actually affect enemy CAF when assault garrisoned units.

[@theresevoerman7109]

The game ain't even out yet. Couldn't we hold off on the !POWA! gaming for just a little bit?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Does HOT equal power? 🤔 For me it's more about how interesting and impactful a legions rules are. Gotta help people make at least semi-informed decisions before they start painting 😊

[@paintedtabletop]

so. a video based on someone's else video. Why not just ... link that video? Or wait until you get the book so you can give your opinion based on actually having read the book.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

My opinion WAS based on the rules. And GW doesn't send all of us free product a few weeks early so we make do 😊 Got the rules now. Only shift is that Dark Angels probably made it to HOT. Glad you're enjoying the content...? 😅😬

[@ChrisPrice12]

I think its too soon to be making a video like this.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Almost definitely! 😅 Hence the disclaimer. Good to talk through it for people though. So they can make at least some semi-informed decisions on their Legion choices.