The Old World: Are the Legacy Factions Any Good?

[@harveywallbanger2127]

With the skaven special rule thing (Scurrying masses), Warband is the new special rule that gives a leadership bonus based on rank afaik, which all the skaven units and character seem to have. Scurrying masses is to extend that benefit to things that wouldn't otherwise be able to get it. Screaming bell and plague furnace have the rule.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Thank you!! I couldn't find it. Well played GW!

[@tomusannonymous]

you know I was disappointed that my precious dark elves were not being revived, but now I feel a bit better and you're right I don't need to feel bad about using 3d printed models for them.

[@lukehendriech3812]

3D PRINTSSS BABY

[@NapoleonicWargaming]

You never did baby! GW showed you the contempt they hold you in, and that's if you ever felt the need to support them

[@kempo79]

That's exactly why WFB was killed - people didn't use GW models. So - keep printing models and buy 3rd party minis - and you'll NEVER get Dark Elves back as fully supported faction.

[@jervoise]

wait, arent all the DE models still available from AoS?

[@NapoleonicWargaming]

@@kempo79 imagine thinking I need GW to support my faction 🤣🤣🤣 I was writing better rules than GW when I was 8

[@CGOLAN]

18:58 no mistake, no issues ;) Scurrying Masses - Bell and Plague Furnace, you can use Find function in your PDF viewer and find it easily btw, Hydra do not have 2 attack, it is 2 attack base + Extra Attacks rules (check that out also)

[@Myurridthaekish]

I think the old strength in numbers is rolled into the warband rule

[@AdamSaltFPV]

Man, how did I choose 5 armies since 4th ed only to have them all get the legacy treatment?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Ooft that hurts 😔 On the upside... free rules!?

[@fckprc8149]

Wow, you got hit harder than me. I got 4 and all are legacy armies.

[@scelonferdi]

Varghulfs and particularly -gheists being associated with Ghoul Kings is weird. In 8th basically every bloodline got its associated new unit. The Vargheists were the Von Carstein ones. For the Strigoi it was Crypt Horrors.

[@Gumlass1]

You had me at "here, in Canberra"

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Heading to Jolt on Thursday night for some games! 😁

[@kingofrohan888]

Wonder if they'll ever take Chaos Dwarfs off this and do a full fledged Chaos Dwarfs for the Old World with new models. Or maybe they're saving that for AoS

[@blackbriargaming5483]

There are a bunch of rumours for AoS chaos stunties. Which would give them models for two systems. Watch this space!

[@meatbasedveteran]

Great vid mate. Totally agree with you on all points

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Except the Skaven special rule part! Got that wrong. It's there and I just missed it. But no longer needed for infantry 😁

[@jamiesanchez8063]

I’m wondering if we’ll see a Warhammer: The New World with most of these armies in them…

[@Jewus19]

yes, they are good. But will they stay good is the bigger questionmark at the moment.

[@jonesfoxx2241]

We have 8 editions and the Community edition to work with. We never stopped playing WFB all these years. Use the army books and keep you bases as is.

[@commentarytalk1446]

Agree, sums it up. Little help from GW though it's nice to have a fig leaf...

[@DenSluge]

7:56 too bad only sorceresses can ride Dark Pegasus. Basically, we lost a mount for the Dark Elves

[@ONI09100]

i with they could take the cold one chariate tougher still quick and some nice damage on the charge especely if you add a assalmeant spell

[@atomicsquid3345]

I have been waiting for your take on this ! Thank you for taking the time to do this video :)

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Had a break over Christmas but keen to really get into Old World content in 2024

[@jakubfabisiak9810]

Now I just need some base adapters, because I really want to keep my delfs on the original bases, even though I like the 25mm bases idea, but I went out of my way to build the army with 5e models for 5e rules.

[@ILostMyIcecream]

My fear is that these legacy factions won’t get much more support than this. And that is kinda what killed Fantasy.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Fear? They've specifically stated that's the case. But also. Never say never. They'll need somewhere to go once the core factions are fleshed out. If the game is popular enough.

[@chrislowe0001]

I believe it's a place holder for them to move onto if the game proves itself to be successful over the long term. And they are even with every other race that still are waiting for a journal. Play your dudes even if they are on the waiting list is how I feel haha.

[@wakankinyan]

They will get zero support. It's on the pdf.

[@spilnukim38]

Im " new" player and want to try out OLD WORLD. I tried Old World when vampire counts came out and was into tournaments. I sold my models so my question is ? Should i maybe go Beast men ? Wich is one of the core units ? Or vampire counts and buy an army from AOS ? but can i then use them in tournaments with legends ?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Editing a 'How to choose a faction' video right now!

[@markgarner8544]

Can anyone find the Repeater Crossbow stats for the weapon? I can't find it.

[@xenosophont]

It's in the main rulebook: 24" S3 AP0 Armour Bane (1) Multiple Shots (2) - you get -1 to Hit if using multishots to shoot more than a single projectile just like in 8th Ed. Repeater Handbows are 12" S3 AP0 (no ArmBane) but with Quick Shot (same as "Quick to Fire" from 8th). Brace of RepHB's are MS(4) ofc...

[@tygerdave7892]

Its always about specifics. The legacy armies are not legal for the big, official tournaments, but obviously has no standing at the local level. Your local TOs will run whatever they want to run.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Going to a big official tournament for a GW system sounds like a nightmare 😅

[@tygerdave7892]

@@blackbriargaming5483 It's a different hobby entirely. At the local level, the asshat player is going to quickly find out that the local club has all refused to play him, and quickly comes to realize that gaming is as much about friendship as it is about gameplay. Good manners (and good hygiene) will be as important as winning, because you want to continue to game with these people in the future. At official tournaments, players will attempt to abuse rules in order to find advantages. Consider the young man who thought he could get an advantage by deploying his entire army in reserves, only to get schooled by the opponent who deployed along every table edge, preventing him from entering the game. These same mindsets tried to do such things as using 10" tall bases during the initial AoS release in order to prevent you from being able to engage them through the model-to-model contact rule (AoS started base-agnostic because most armies were coming into play on square bases.) When you deal with that player mindset, the TOs try to create the most balanced gameplay possible. Back in the day: Movement trays? Hell no! They prevented base-to-base contact, or provided a size advantage, blahblahblah. Now all the WAAC players are demanding players enter the game with movement trays to prevent 20-25mm size advantage, even though Fighting Ranks largely eliminates most concerns here. About the only thing I can see as a problem are whether or not frontages can move through terrain or not, or if you have enough range to flank the smaller unit that is in contact from the long side, but I think overall the impact of 20 vs 25 is going to be meaningless. There will be a lot of requirements regarding using proper models, no 3d printing, offical GW bases, etc., all things you won't see at the local level. Consider it like blood doping in sports. In official events you are going to be tested to be sure you don't bring unfair advantage to the game, but nobody gives a damned when you're racing the neighbor kids to the end of the street. They are literally two different events, even though the activity, running, is the same.

[@bradclose4883]

Black Guard used to have 2 attacks

[@advancetomayfair]

Please add time stamps

[@davefogle7747]

Flamers and the greater deamons are what made Deamons OP in 8th m

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Good to know! Never played with or against them. Just heard things...

[@BlastastiC]

I am 100% using this game as an excuse to fullfil my 90s Chaos Dwarf army dreams and I have no other ambition for it. 0-1 units of Black Orcs! Hobgoblin boltthrower! HASHUT! HASHUT!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

The 90s are back and they're glorious!!

[@areghjttyjjtyddreag5290]

Brilliant analysis. Could you add an email to your channel for business enquiries?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Hit me up on Insta or FB 😊 There is an email but it rarely gets checked.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

But if you PM me I can send you my personal email address that actually gets read 😅

[@lesbianmorgoth652]

I've seen one official gw mesbg tournament up in brisbane I think?

[@medburyminiatures9607]

will you be at cancon?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Sure will!! Not playing though. Just cruising for those spicy deals.

[@medburyminiatures9607]

@@blackbriargaming5483 fair fair, Might catch ya there then!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

@medburyminiatures9607 if you see me, definitely say hi!! Especially if I'm with my tiny humans so I can tell them I'm pretty much famous 😅

[@medburyminiatures9607]

@@blackbriargaming5483 I'll be stuck behind a trader stall, but will do!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

@@medburyminiatures9607 which one? I'll come say hi!

[@ComandaKronikk]

Nice I also live in Canberra!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

I think we're going to get a great community going!!

[@valdemarjakobsen9553]

Don't know if they fixet it, but atm bell and furnace gat masses

[@valdemarjakobsen9553]

Ok, no i see bell gat it in your vid too.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

It was my mistake. Not there's 😅 It's a GW miracle! Warband covers the infantry.

[@stoephil]

Vampires have been heavily nerfed. Cannot get a vampire character to wizard level 4, cannot cast most spells in regular armor or in combat, blood knight stats have been butchered it's insulting (the flavor column says they best grail knights, but ALL their stats are worst than theirs now, that was only right in 8th), vampiric power have been sliced in half (there's not enough of them and most are meh). The only buffed things are necromancers with nehek in command phase, strigoi ghoul kings which are much better than before, and the fact you can ignore zombies & skeletons tax as core if you have a Wight.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

It does indeed look like they took a hit. But the game has been balanced across the board. We'll need some decent game evidence to see where they end up I think 🤔

[@Malisteen]

personally I don't mind bretts having the best of the best cavalry, grail knights are supernaturally empowered in their own right, and blood knights are still darn strong relative to the lower damage output across the board compared to 8th. also worth calling out that blood knights can get full plate, though they pay through the nose for it. still that fluff entry implying they're on par with or above grail knights when they just aren't does feel weird. I'm not to upset with vamp heroes though. the casting trade offs matter and make for distinctly different builds. obviously i'd like to see more powers, even a bloodlines again, but that's where homebrew rules supplements will have to fill the gap.

[@wakankinyan]

Lol @ nerfed. It's a totally different game and Blood Knights look just fine as heavy cavalry in context.

[@SuperThest]

It’s worth noting that even though they nerfed BK damage (damage is lower in general across a lot of armies) they did buff their toughness with full plate armor, regeneration, and being less susceptible to crumbling. I do agree that the vampire powers are a huge downgrade. There isn’t enough and there’s pretty weak variety in what little there is. Plus they gave the BK champ a 25 point allowance which I think only gives them the option to buy terror so why bother? Just say he can buy terror.

[@ndalum75]

The big hit is the loss of any ability for Undead to march, even while within your general's aura. The days of Vampire blenders are well and truly over, unless perhaps you take a ghoul king, though a regular Vampire has a decent shot at being a duelist thanks to the Sword of Kings. Still, they are totally outclassed by Bretonnian, Elf, or even Dwarf Lords. That feels wrong, in an army that has traditionally relied on the Lord to carry the somewhat weaker units. This isn't even mentioning how the break changes have quite negatively affected undead, simply because everyone else has got better.

[@totomen666]

I mean what a rights GW has to say what is good for tournaments and what is not, if THEY THEMSELVES made these army's a thing, not like some nerd come up with Spider-Elfs and printed his own models and come to tournament, they made lore and figurines and then be like "Sorry but you can't play with others!" what a madness is that? 1000% not inclusive and outright BS!

[@Denumine1]

You know what cold blood only works for fear panic and terror right?... not for stupidity... not for breaktests?

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yep! Seen since. An adjustment that's very welcome 😊

[@drdiscostu]

"cold blooded is as good as it always was" errr someone has read the rules, it is literally our biggest nerf

[@MLaak86]

I’m still a bit puzzled and annoyed by GW’s thinking on which armies get to come back ‘officially’ (for however long TOW manages to last) to be honest given practically *EVERY* faction I like was left as “legacy” - DE, Lizardmen, Skaven and Vampire Counts, only Dwarfs got revived. But yeah once I get Dwarfs built up I’ll definitely be printing a legacy army.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

There's an easy answer. I'll do a video on it i think.

[@kommisar85]

bassed video!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Thanks... I think?

[@lukehendriech3812]

as an Ogre and Lizardmen lover I am happy I can play my boys now kinda sad no Lord Kroak, Gor Rok or any of them but hey not gonna complain

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yeah no special characters outside of arcane journals by the look of it

[@Denumine1]

Lizzards now got the worst leadership... coöd blood is only for fear panic and terror... no breaks... and not for the stupidity of cold ones

[@Michaelkayslay]

Subbing cause you're a fellow Aussie Don't let me down daddy!

[@robertchmielecki2580]

200 blowpipe Skinks for 1200pts ftw.

[@mcpanzer4637]

Love the content, but cold blooded got a hearty nerf. Its not leadership anymore, just panic, fear and terror. Crucially not break.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Ooooh good pick up! I'm honestly OK with it. That nerf was well needed 😅

[@robnoel9306]

The real question is why are they making legacy factions? The answer is to split reproduction of their old stock so people end up buying more.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

There's two decent reasons. They're not worried about people "buying more", their production can't keep up with demand as it is. I'm pretty confident it comes down to existing/conflicting model lines within AoS and limited production/publishing capacity. They're releasing a whole new game system. Trying to do 15 or so factions all at once (with accompanying model releases) would simply be impossible for their current capacity.

[@CatharsisChaser]

From cursory first glances it seems that as a whole the legacy factions might be a tad bit weaker than the fully supported ones They are very flushed out and fluffy but some minor power differentials become pretty apparent when you compare similar forces like Dark vs High elves

[@blackbriargaming5483]

Yeah I think I noted as such. Except for Chaos Dwarfs. They seem goooood.

[@FlourEater]

I looked trough them briefly and at this point of a game I think they are very solid. Nothing stood out as particulary powerfull or just pure trash and got me pumped for some of those factions. For tournament play..my country doesn´t even have a GW store and in my 20 years of hobby, I´ve attended only a handful of small tournaments in local hobby store. I am super excited about TOW and I am happy that you are covering it!

[@blackbriargaming5483]

What country are you in??

[@FlourEater]

@@blackbriargaming5483 Czech rep, central europe. UK is close, but still...the nearest store GW store is in Poland. But we have very good 2 local stores in the capital, Prague.

[@blackbriargaming5483]

@@FlourEater fabulous!

[@ja37d-34]

Glad the nonsense added in 7th Ed and 8th Ed Army Books is rolled back a bit.. Like 2A on Chaos Warriors, Swordmasters etc.. Ridicolous and so unbalanced. Much more 6th Ed-y this, seems a bit more balanced again.

[@DerOrk]

The new Skaven list is such a disappointment. Not only are Slaves and Verminlords gone, so is the vast majority of interessting rules and mount options. No more friendly fire! You can't even build a reasonable Clan Pestilens army anymore. Totally killed my interesst to undust my old Skaven army. If I wanted a "relyable, streamlined" army book I would have picked up about any other factions. I picked Skaven to have fun, and there is no fun to be had for me in this snoozefest of a ruleset.

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

No K'daai destroyer. Is it even Chaos dwarfs at that point?

[@Canuovea]

Maybe they'd not canonically built em yet?

[@kdhlkjhdlk]

canon and lore are post-hoc rationalisations for shitty business decisions. @@Canuovea

[@Canuovea]

@@kdhlkjhdlk That generally sums up Games Workshop pretty well, doesn't it?

[@frenzyed]

The dreaded 13th spell was fine and should be brought back :) Squeak

[@Fallstorm777]

If running a tournament I would be hesitant to allow Legacy armies. Looking at them they seem very unbalanced. For example, ogre kingdoms seem to have lost nothing really not even mournfang in their legacy packet. While Chaos Warriors lost skullcrushers. It seems like MF by themselves could crush most things in the game.

[@toro132]

nop,they are zero work and effort work. only high elfs copyed with worse rules and expensiver points and they call them dark elves,or copy khemri with worse rules and expensiver and call it vampire count