Leman Russ Turret Math Hammer: Imperial Guard / Astra Militarum Tactics + Strategy + Maths

[@liamcarter5389]

The anti-infantry punisher is better at anti-tank then the dedicated anti-tank vanquisher shots fired. That just made my night thank you :)

[@jbento5238]

Vanquisher is the worst

[@MojaveWolfe]

Effing GW could have fixed this in Greater Good but didn't because Derp.

[@sairence]

In fairness, outside of a few special cases, none of the PA-books included datasheet updates.

[@hideshisface1886]

@@MojaveWolfe the problem with Vanquisher is that GW are apparently incapable of running actual statistics. Vanquisher cannon is BASICALLY a very long range meltagun with melta-rule that is independent of range. That sounds great... as long as you don't realise it is a primary weapon. Heavy1, this is what kills it. Guard already suffers from relatively poor ballistic skill - 1 shot weapons are unreliable. S8 is also not really that remarkable. 2D6 pick the highest damage is nice, but this is MAXIMUM of 12damage with grinding advance with a stupidly lucky rolls. Vanquisher is incapable of efficiently dealing with other equivalent tanks in a single round. At the same time - a regular Battle Cannon has a potential to deal 36 wounds to a single target... It is unlikely to do so, but still ends up better. D6 shots means it is less vulnerable to finicky BS of the guard, it wounds just as well as Vanquisher, and deals with saves nearly just as well. The problem here is - even with a maximum possible performance, Vanquisher is still quite poor as far as anti-tank options are concerned.

[@Jarms48]

Personally I’d just make the vanquisher heavy D3 and bump it’s cost to the same as a battle tank. That way their stats are inverted. A battle tank is D6 with D3 wounds, and a vanquisher is D3 with D6 wounds.

[@3_ogres_in_a_trenchoat]

I'm loving the guard rundown, it's been really handy to get back into the game.

[@SWIFTO_SCYTHE]

Perfect timing for a return fellow guard commander. In one week the greater good supplement comes out and inside had a HUGE guard update!

[@somebodyelse7580]

I'm not sure if you're doing anything different this video, but you sound noticeably clearer in this one than you have in videos just days old. You've been putting out so much content, and getting better and better so quickly! I hope your channel takes off like it deserves to!

[@hideshisface1886]

Looking at those numbers really shows how the things changed over the editions for the poor old Battle Cannon - back in the day this thing used to be THE best way to deal with TEQ units. Perfectly capable of decimating the entire squad of marines in a single shot - back when the templates were still a thing.

[@batman9592]

My 3 Leman Russ Tank Commanders have: Battle Cannon, Demolisher, Punisher. And all the sponsons. Leading about 100 Guardsmen. I just started Guard, as my 6th Army, but mainly as a decoration/ background/ something different. Cool Video series.

[@tombulpit6994]

Came to your channel for the first time yesterday after seeing a link to your Greater Good rules reveal. I'm psyched by updates to Guard tanks, I wonder if you could make a video for damage output but factoring in Tank Aces, Orders and the new Doctrines?

[@auspextactics]

Will be having a bit more of a close look at tank aces shortly hopefully, yeah there are a ton of new options to layer on russes now!

[@Axquirix]

IMO the Exterminator's biggest problem isn't that it's only good against niche targets, it's that most of said targets are 1) fast and 2) fly, such as the given example of Eldar venoms, jetbikes, raiders etc. Against that niche, using the same heavy support slot to bring a Hydra is a better choice; it's cheaper, it has a bonus to hit against such fliers, it has longer range to help ensure it can keep shooting no matter how far away the target runs, and it's shot volume is the same as the Exterminator's even after grinding advance is calculated. Obviously it's a more fragile tank and can't take sponson weapons or accept tank orders, however.

[@sairence]

The Exterminator just needs more shots, to be an actual alternative to the Battlecannon. Give it 6 or even 8 shots (which it would have had if it had gotten the same upgrade that all other twinlinked guns received at the start of 8th) and you would trade S and AP for higher rate of fire and consistent damage compared to the Battlecannon.

[@Jarms48]

sairence completely agreed, a minimum of heavy 6 at the normal battle tank points cost or heavy 8 with its new 9th edition points cost.

[@dominic7866]

I've been playing Vostroyans for about a year and I'm shocked at how few people speak about the strength of Vostroyan Punishers and Demolishers, I've killed Knights in Overwatch with the Demolisher and I have seen literally nothing come close to the damage output and survivability for the same points cost. I always slap a multi melta on them and they are ungodly strong. Honourable mention for the Vostroyan Executioner, firstborn pride gives +1 to hit so you can't overcharge and hurt your tanks and in that case it's just a better version of the Battle Canon and this generally handles the longer ranged targets your demolishers cant hit turn 1. And you've always got basalisks if you're really worried about long range firepower, but I've never seen the demolisher range disadvantage effect me negatively. Honestly, it makes the Vostroyans a much more close ranged gunline which makes for more intense games with incredibly important movement and choices to be made, which is fun all around.

[@MojaveWolfe]

AVG wounds has serious shortcomings in list building analysis, as variance/deviation is not factored in. There are no partial wound (X.X) models in 40k, only integer (X) wound models. Flat damage weapons like the Executioner and Exterminator over-perform in a meta where models 2 wound models make up a large portion of Troop choices (LVO 2020 Intercessors). Hammer of Sunderance overperforms the Demolisher because of the range and flat 3 damage because of reliability and lack of variance.

[@sammaynard7600]

Cheers, I'm a long time Vostroyan player and I love using Demolisher Tank Commanders, also love my Punisher Tank commander. Recently discovered the channel, like the regular and articulate videos!

[@TheTurbanatore]

All rounder - Hammer of Sunderance Anti Infantry - Normally Punisher, but in the Marine meta we are in, I would go for Executioner (Plasma) Anti Armor - Demolisher + 6" range ability

[@Jarms48]

I don’t know, 30 inch demolishers are basically anti-everything. Hammer of Sunderance has great wound potential, but a demolisher has higher strength, AP, and D6 wounds.

[@FaustKellhound]

I been getting back in to 40k after many years out, i am glad that I have some better stats and game play stats for the cannons. You are making me a far better play with these videos. Keep them coming AT

[@TubeTAG]

Not sure if I misunderstood the table, but the Demolisher does more wounds than the relic cannon on 2w intercessors but the relic cannon cell is highlighted. If the highlighted cell is supposed to be 2nd place, then the demolisher should have it. Minor quibble, so NBD. Thanks for the analysis!

[@scambroselauntrellus3681]

F in the chat for Vanquisher cannon

[@DJCallidus]

Nice channel. Just starting a cadian guard force. Will be facing lots of MEQ's so I instinctively its demolishers. I like the punisher and executioner variants. It means getting up in their face but most space marines forces do that anyway. Not that I'll ignore the standard Leman Russ, good value. Thanks for the tips.

[@lionanatorgaming3298]

Tallarn demolisher with heavy flamers coming in with their out flank strat coupled with the move 6 inches and shoot still w/ grinding advance is great

[@richmcgee434]

Punisher's quite good, although it's one of those that really likes a +6" range buff (like the Demolisher, of course). Wonder how its overall efficiency compares to the slightly weaker Taurox Prime's gatling turret. The TP is a cheaper and much weaker platform but doesn't double shoot, and I doubt two of them is anywhere near as efficient as one Punisher. But for a transport it's rather heavily gunned, isn't it?

[@Jarms48]

As the Lions scion regiment they also get AP-1. Still not great compared to a punisher but fairly decent.

[@mathewkelly9968]

Without watching I know not to take the vanquisher cannon ever . Maybe reroll wounds vs vehicles/monsters could help it ?

[@tombulpit6994]

Check out the Stygies/Ryza pattern Vanquisher from FW... +1 to hit, re-roll hits if shot with co-axial, roll 2D6 for damage and take highest.

[@richmcgee434]

@Tom Bulpit There's something to be said for "melta effect" damage rolls from all the way across the table. I think that version (which was once the only version, IIRC) is the only one I've ever seen used. Didn't even know it wasn't the default Vanquisher until about a year ago. Too many editions muddled in my head. :)

[@Jarms48]

Personally I’d just make it heavy D3

[@williamballangarry2995]

I’ll admit it, for casual games I almost always prefer the Vanquisher. I just love the look of it and it FEELS like a tank: it has a big anti-tank gun, and it’s supposed to be for hunting enemy armour. But the Vanquisher wouldn’t be seen anywhere near any of my competitive lists, and that’s a massive shame.

[@ModellingforAdvantage]

Great unit review, thanks.

[@nicocarrero5953]

How to fix the Vanquisher IMO: Heavy D3 S9 AP-3 (Or 4) D6 Essentially D3 lascannon shots, though this does also make the Annihilator somewhat superfluous.

[@Jarms48]

No need to change the other stats, just heavy D3 would be great.

[@bringerebrethil6176]

Also the orders as well. You can do a whole lot more with each tank cause of tank orders

[@ivaneeh4211]

Great Video :) may I ask you to make a short and dirty one for sponson weapons? I'm still not sure if theyre worth their points. thx

[@auspextactics]

Yeah that's a good topic, will add it to the list. My short answer would be generally 'yes' on tank commanders (heavy bolters or PCs) and a 'maybe' on regular russes - unless they're tallarn that -1 to hit on moving is not ideal

[@bestcommander556]

Well it is like you said. Punisher and Demolisher are godlike :)

[@flatheadgg2443]

for me it's really all the battlecannons all the way but I might look up for a demolisher in the close future

[@davidb3155]

1 Demolisher is always an auto include for me. I obliterated mortarian cause my opponent was too focused on my banesword and didnt know just how dangerous a guard demolisher is with grinding advance rule

[@whitehart1362]

I'm still loving the eradicator nova cannon. It's superb for clearing marines out of buildings.

[@Jarms48]

I mean, a demolisher is just going to be more effective here in every way. It’s going to have a bigger effect on saves even with cover when it comes to AP-3 compared to AP-1 and ignore cover. You’ll also wound T5 on 2+, big difference there too.

[@essex3777]

Oh baby, talk nerdy to me.

[@carnivoriousleaf]

What's the math about sponsoons and thoughts whether it's worth investing in them

[@Psycadellion]

Very nice thank you for the math :D I have been mainly playing with battlecannons, and demolisher cannons. But to be fair i mostly play catachan regiment. And battle cannons on commanders catachan really nice 2d6 shots i can reroll both, and demo tank in normal leman russ, and fille the rest of his weapons with heavy flamers makes him very interesting since i can reroll all d6 dice,

[@highvoltage291]

Already have my tank commanders built as battle canons. Would it be worth adding plain leman Russ demolishers as heavy support?

[@zaganim3813]

i mean its easy enough to cut the barrel of and refit it

[@CrashandTrash596]

I cannot wait to apply tank commander buffs to the punisher

[@Durahan82]

I don't Remember the Vanquisher being this Horrible in the early editions [played 2th thru 4th] , same stats as the battle Cannon but with an APCR shell option if you wanted to Destroy Vehicles .

[@GrinNfoolGaming]

Something is off with your tac and intercessor numbers on the punisher. 40x.5 x .67 x .33 = 4.422, obviously I am short handing the math here you went further in decimals for the % but the point is its a fair bit better than 2.9 marines or 2.9 wounds vs primaris.

[@Cerebrosum]

The thing though is that your damage against marines in capped to one per hit. Since they only have the single wound

[@GrinNfoolGaming]

@@Cerebrosum Punishers only do 1 damage per hit man lol. Thats why I don't have x2 or any other damage multiplier in the math.

[@Cerebrosum]

@@GrinNfoolGaming Right, got them mixed up. My bad haha

[@jesuschristconquers]

Vanquisher should be made Heave D3, in all due honesty. It's just so underwhelming.

[@jorgejustin461]

Toughness 3 Imperial Knight? I wish. ;)

[@richmcgee434]

Maybe if it's proxying in Kill Team as a Guardsman? Worked out great in TSOALR. :)

[@jamesmcclennan1866]

is a 30" range on a gun okay. Would you think in most deployments it would reach somthing with out moving to far

[@jasonscott8844]

Army I'm building at the moment is a tank company. Tank commander in punisher. Two basilisk, two hydra, 6 Russes. Three with battle cannon and heavy bolters and three with punishers and heavy flamers. I'm going to do all female crew and they shall be called girls und leman russ

[@obscurian5156]

Maybe I missed it in the assumptions but what did you use for number of shots? Also, I'm fixing to listen to the greater good video so maybe you covered it in there and I'm being redundant but I'm guessing we are going to see a lot of demolishers with gunnery experts to reroll shots and spotters to give them +6" range. A demolisher tank commander with that plus the tank ace so that it never takes more than 1 wound is going to be...nasty...

[@auspextactics]

Afraid this one was made before I recorded the greater good one so hence no mention of it :D But yeah 30" demolishers that reroll the number of shots (or repair their own damage) - yes please!

[@richmcgee434]

Yeah, that combo on custom regiments seems like a good one for them, although you could still make a good argument for...is it Vostroyan? Whichever gives the +6" range of the named regiments.

[@obscurian5156]

Rich McGee yeah vostroyan. What i suspect we will see is people running two bn’s traditional guard, 1 bn scions, with 1bn being demolishers, basilisks, etc. 1 bn being infantry heavy, plasma vets, heavy weapons squads, etc. and scions with a regiment trait that fills in the gaps.

[@richmcgee434]

@Obscurian Seems likely. Guard were already tending to use multiple regiments before this to get the best bennies on the right units, and now they have so many more options. Personally I think it's a good thing, it fits the fluff well (Guard forces often mix formations) and the custom regiments will give players more opportunities to personalize their armies and maybe give the named regiments a little time off for R&R.

[@obscurian5156]

Rich McGee it’s a good point. In the fluff they say that combined arms is rare and then in the codex combined arms is a given because all tanks, artillery and infantry have regiment keyword. So yeah, definitely dude.

[@johnhazatoth6125]

This isn't the leman russ tank commander, right? That number seems too low if it's a tank commander.

[@johnhazatoth6125]

Also, pask with demolisher cannon is a nightmare to be shot by.

[@Mister_Pickels]

for the Vanquisher, would increasing the damage of each shot, or increasing the number of shots help it more against vehicles? I was thinking of just having a special rule for it's shot stating "increase damage to 2D6 when targeting vehicles". Would that push it above the Demolisher, or would the Vanquisher need something more?

[@auspextactics]

2D6 damage vs vehicles + monsters would be a pretty good fix actually! it wouldn't outperform the demolisher on average, but it fires at a far longer range so that's fine really. At least it'd be better than the standard russ against tanks that way...

[@RWJP]

@@auspextactics I'd say something similar to the Repulsor Executioner's Laser Destroyer could be a good option... D6 damage, with rolls of 1 or 2 being rounded up to 3. Would certainly make damage more consistent.

[@Jarms48]

Personally I’d just make it heavy D3. Then it’s the inverse of the battle cannon.

[@McBurnside6380]

The vanquisher would be fine if it weren't for the absolute insane number of invulns and FNP's present on almost every unit in the game.

[@boutinpowered8373]

Summary: Punisher vs 1 Wound Infantry. Demolisher vs 2 Wound Infantry, Vehicles and Tanks. Thanks.

[@noahtekulve2684]

From someone with internet too bad to watch the video effectively, thank you.

[@Brazouck]

helo, when does the rules for demolisher changed please ? I have missed that FAQ

[@nomisekul4969]

in 2019 chapter approved, the demolisher changed to permanent Heavy D6

[@electrohalo8798]

TBH I use vanquishers as my go to gun for my lemans, along with a leman having a punisher (I have 3 lemans) I just prefer the vanquisher, also could you do a baneblade weapon comparison, because my ANTI-EVERYTHING weapon needs to shine

[@BidnessGoose]

yeah my friends and I play on incursion, so uh... Demolisher it is

[@wyrdtree222]

Are intercessors and tac marines wrong way round?

[@nickq8093]

Nah, the better numbers on intercessors are cos it's wounds per shooting rounds and as tac marines are one wound infantry you can only cause one wound per hit regardless of your guns damage

[@anotharoundboi]

Leman Russes or Leman Russ-i? :3 :P

[@Ulfhednir9]

The new tank aces and custom traits hmmmm

[@nathanieljernigan1147]

Executioner is best, because its so deadly even the user is probably going to die. How many other guns can claim that kind of kill count. 😂 Btw I jest.