Let's fix the original AoE2 counters guide!

[@matthewhawkins3697]

Originally played the CD version of this game as a kid, and didn't know about counters until well into my 20s - all because my dad spilled coffee on the counter poster. That coffee cost millions of units their lives.

[@klop3re]

Lol but that spearman counter cav you did know? And skirmischers archers? I didnt knew the skirms counter handcannons and that are monks great against Knights and ligh cav against monks

[@takekoputa1209]

@@klop3re In 2002 I didn't even know that pikemen counter cavs. I only used them when I ran out of gold, lol.

[@aventurileluipetre]

I thought "Champions, paladins and hand canoneers have high damage output! Why in the world would I spend my resources on spearmen and skirmishers? They are useless!"

[@lauchattp.8699]

@@aventurileluipetre me too xD

[@DrSaav-my5ym]

I got my copy from my cousin many years ago, never even knew about the counters poster until I saw this video just now.

[@mrpereza4518]

Old Woad Raider: "I used to rule the world, you know?"

[@anasshasnaoui8043]

Hahaha thats funny

[@Tpoleful]

Woad raiders were much worse in AOK than now. I remember being really intrigued in the tutorial when the guy said 'One of your most powerful units can be made at the castle.' So I used them and was really disappointed. They were the fastest infantry at the time but Knights were still faster and tougher than them. At least now they're more like cavalry with infantry armor class.

[@DarkOmegaMK2]

No you didn't

[@Kimtu241294]

Sea's gon' rise when I gave the word.. Now in the mornin' ... . I'll stop there.

[@grammaton3773]

Old Toad Raider used to be the worst unit in the game. Elite War Elephant used to be unstopable. They add halberds and "balanced" Toad Raider little bit and now its reverted...

[@johnbaker4246]

This game has been around for so long I just followed along on the original Age of Kings counters chart that my dad bought when I was 2.

[@zoiuduu]

@Bob ESL?

[@jennypoffel7952]

Can anyone tell how i can create a 1v1 against a Ki im new and when im create a game and make unlock the Map(cheat) i cant see the enemy

[@Gui101do]

I used to study this units strengths and weaknesses guide when I was a kid haha

[@axelnordstrom-frostmark7293]

I have the same situation.

[@bilearning2883]

Playing rts game at 2. What a gamer

[@SpiritOfTheLaw]

Correction: Cataphracts didn't have their anti-cavalry resistance in Age of Kings, so that's why camels are suggested as a good counter. At that time that would have been correct to list on the guide.

[@DarknessTemplar6]

I think you also forgot to add inca slingers as a counter-infantry since that's what they are built for

[@basilbaby2069]

I'm not sure I remember correctly, Cataphracts used to have bonous against Mamaluks, that's why they counter them..... I think in AoK, Anti-Anti-Cavalry bonous was an attack bonous rather than an armour bonous in AoC

[@klop3re]

Good memorys i played age of Kings 15 yeahrs ago on Playstation 2 :D byzantin was one of my fav ziv but back than i would never use cathapracs against camels or pikemen only wen you have huge numbers becouse trumble dmg

[@capitanmarmota8562]

The 10+ on infantry from hand canoneers didn't exist either. Personally, I think the negation of bonuses from the catafract is bs, they already have 10+ bonus, but if you consider the bonus resistance, that's 10+10=20 bonus, totally unbalanced as most civs don't have paladins

[@basilbaby2069]

@@klop3re but neither logistica nor any unique techs existed in AoK, you might have played AoC

[@Kaarl_Mills]

*Slaps the roof of the Counters Guide* This bad boy can fit so many god damn Woad Raiders

[@N1NJ4P1R4T3]

I laughed way too hard at this comment.

[@Lasvegasflight99]

Balance chart: "You must train additional Woad Raiders."

[@FIamestalker]

Woadraiders being mentioned so often might be because Celts are/were the Tutorial civ, it makes sense to mention them often if you expect 50% of the people reading the list to have only played Celt up to that point. Woads also tend to do better in smaller scale battles, which with the lower default pop limits of the day was more common

[@Shero1337]

When I started play age of empires I couldn't even read yet, now I'm watching someone review the original AoE2 counters guide on KZbin 20~ish years later, this game is timeless 👌

[@whatsinadeadname]

It seems to me the Woad Raider was supposed to be the "fast infantry" unit in AoK, capable of closing distance and killing ranged units, but without any particular strength against towers. Basically, what the Eagle Warrior became in AoC and thereafter (sans pierce armor).

[@gnochhuos645]

Sans

[@msonisama8656]

yes, woad raider was pretty fast and very frequently used

[@victordrouinviallard1700]

@@gnochhuos645 that's some true french here :) ("without" mon ami)

[@unimportantcommenter4356]

So archers are going to have a bad time countering Woads?

[@msonisama8656]

@@unimportantcommenter4356 not necessarily, no. BUT compared to other infantry (except eagles) kind of. But being an infantry, they still have the disadvantage, just not as much as others. As they are faster than foot archer line, hit and run won't work if you are micro-ing them

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

"once you have enough crossbows" It didn't really happen. Large numbers weren't a thing at the time. The population limit that was considered normal was 75.

[@klop3re]

Why i had back then 200 unit limit on a Playstation

[@khankhomrad8855]

@@klop3re Since release the max pop cap was 200, but most games at the time were played at 75 or 50. That's why the original AoK campaigns had a pop cap f 75 across the board.

[@satyakisil9711]

That also meant less of other units to counter them. Back then Onager lag probably hurt games a lot.

[@Bleilock1]

i know a lot of people are saying this about pop caps being 75 back in the day but my experience from playing back in the day was playing on 200 pop caps with my friends and other people online i cant remember at all playing on 75 pop cap, but i do remember campaigns not having 200 pop caps and im playing this game since 2002... so dunno, to each their own

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

@@Bleilock1 you could set any limit between 25 and 200 in custom games, but since the default was 75, I assume that counter guide was written with that parameter in mind. In a similar way, you can set the limit in HD and DE to 500 but 200 is the widely accepted normal setting, and developpers balance the game for 200.

[@georgeprchal3924]

You mean the Cannon Galleon isn't supposed to be countered with Woad Raiders?

[@RennieAsh]

I mean they could if they allowed units to go on transports and board enemy ships... ;-)

[@azh698]

@@RennieAsh Viking bonus next patch?

If only Europe had mangroves... one celt can dream

[@ShinFahima]

@@RennieAsh That would be so cool.

[@MrMarinus18]

I kind of would like it if bombard cannons were given a large bonus damage against ships. It would be very niche as ships can just avoid getting shot but it would be a good way to punish bad ship movement.

[@Dartaen]

Whoever made that list must be a big fan of some team called "Celts".

[@avengerverde6675]

i guess because that was the first campaign

Yello feat Hoang - Oh Yeah

[@daledo8604]

And maybe a bit sour they don't have BBC available in their tech tree.

[@MiroslavMydlo]

@@avengerverde6675 My guess was that it was because of Braveheart that was released around that time

[@cdcdrr]

Old Player: Why aren't towers listed as a counter to camels and other ships? New Player: Wait, what?

[@khankhomrad8855]

Older player: You only need gunpowder to build gunpowder units?

[@samuele9735]

@@khankhomrad8855 New player: No I just need Chemistry. Turks don't even need it at all

[@c182SkylaneRG]

@@khankhomrad8855 Yeah, I feel like a lot of the "history" in this game was lost in favor of "gameplay". Researching each gunpowder unit after chemistry, paying stone to research fortified walls, etc. I'd love to see how the meta changes if those additional costs are added back in. :)

[@sevenpolar3483]

@@c182SkylaneRG my guess would be that no one would use gunpowder units anymore, also fortified walls are not meta anyway

[@genericpersonx333]

The Woad Raiders were pretty much the fastest infantry in Original AoE2, so the idea was that they could close the distance with units like scorpions and mangonels and avoid the worst of their fire and defending infantry. This meta proved to be weak even then, but more than a few Celt players got good at keeping groups of Woad Raiders that would literally run around your champions and pikemen, cutting your archers and siege to pieces. In other words, before the Hussar, the Woad Raider was the relatively cheap speedy-melee-unit you could flank siege with.

[@khankhomrad8855]

The reason why you'd counter skirmishers with barrack units was that the skirmishers had no bonus damage against pikes (added in Conquerors). Additionally, in AoK they didn't have any bonus damage against cavalry archer. Hand cannoners and Jannisaries countering mameluks isn't that weird. There was no zealotry, skirmishers weren't as good at countering them and there were no halberds. Therefore, cannoners with their high damage were valuable for taking down the very expensive mameluks. Edit: Bombard cannons in AoK had only 50 HP and no bonus damage against siege, so they weren't a practical anti-siege unit. Originally the knight line was supposed to be resistant to conversion, I wonder if that was the case when that list was written. Speaking of Elephants, in AoK there was no unique tech to increase their move speed and they only dealt trample damage when upgraded to elite.

[@fhgbv]

And no bloodlines either so mamelukes lose something like 50 hp compared to AoC.

[@jennypoffel7952]

Can anyone tell how i can create a 1v1 against a Ki im new and when im create a game and make unlock the Map(cheat) i cant see the enemy

[@Bennnjj]

@@jennypoffel7952 just do a standard game. you can use option all visible in exploration instead of allow cheat if u only need this.

[@yutuvefan4ever]

"cannoners with their high damage were valuable for taking down the very expensive mameluks." exactly what i was thinking, it's not weird as their burst helps in taking down high hp units; another example being hand cannoneers being good at taking down war elephants

[@khankhomrad8855]

@@yutuvefan4ever That is correct. war elephants were scary but even slower than they are today (no mahouts).

[@DanielGalimidi]

The Celts were the tutorial civilization in William Wallace's campaign, perhaps that's why Woad Raiders were being hyped up so much?

[@davidvalderrey9385]

That's what i thought as well while whatching the video. Woad raiders were the first unique unit introduced to the player so It makes sense that they wanted to give some advice on how to use them.

[@scsaintaiwan]

Paladin: I'm the most versatile unit around here. Celts: Hold my Woad Raiders.

[@unimportantcommenter4356]

Woad raiders are discount paladins without horses.

[@edwardteach3000]

I would like to remind you that in the original Age of Kings (and Conger) Monks had to be directly beside a siege unit to convert it. Which is a pain in the ass to do with magonels.

[@Angels-Haven]

you would understand their love for woad raiders...if you kept exploring the map

[@shinkiro403]

No wait, I'm not sure I got it (prolly not)...

[@francoezequielbarrios2012]

He's referencing the tutorial's narrator reminding you to keep exploring the map every 5 minutes. The tutorial civ is the scots.

[@Angels-Haven]

@@francoezequielbarrios2012 she* you forgot to tag the recipient

[@maxmustsleep]

i think the guy who made this list was scottish. Woad Raiders counter anything if you build enough of them

Vietnamese*

[@nguyenhuyduc9151]

I think longbow can kill woadraider too easily!. Even normal arbalest!

[@maxmustsleep]

@@nguyenhuyduc9151 it was a joke :) if you send 200 woad raiders against 30 archers the woad raiders will win.

[@Bastelkorb3]

you have to remind the Pop cap of 75. if you have 30 Woad raider against 30 archers (without thumb ring, so 16% less dps) the archers have a tough time. Same with knights. Cataphracts were scary, they had more HP than knight because there was no bloodlines. Hand cannoneers had no bonus dmg against infantry etc. The balance was just very different than today.

[@HeavyCavalryArcher]

Woad Raider: why are you so obsessed with me?

[@AmericanRX]

Yes. Also your account name is awesome. Used HCA so much back in the day.

[@HeavyCavalryArcher]

@@AmericanRX I'm very glad our services were satisfactory to you.

[@unimportantcommenter4356]

@@HeavyCavalryArcher I also find it bullshit that you aren't a counter to the archers, especially after the conquerors. After all, you can have +6 pierce armor if you are Japanese, Persian Turk or Saracen, so you take -2 dmg per Arbalest shot, and you have the speed and health to close the gap.

[@serbulentsenturk1326]

Unimportant Commenter Dude its hard to fire arrows while on a mad horse 🐎

[@unimportantcommenter4356]

@@serbulentsenturk1326 makes sense

[@Chlorophyllius]

I assume the logic behind the bombard cannons countering ships is that if your land units are getting pressured from the water, your bombard cannons would safely outrange and destroy or at least threaten them. Since at the release the "meta" has been unknown yet, it makes sense that the author looks at the game from a more theoretical perspective. Similarly, woad raiders were supposed to play out like they were cavalry (being fast), but without having the drawback of having to fear anti-cavalry measures, which on paper makes them sound like they could counter especially a lot of ranged units (it also makes them sound similar to cataphracts in a way). Regardless, thank you for this interesting piece of AoE2 history!

[@rubywest5166]

While it doesn't change too much (Mostly for achers really), don't forget that the game was originally intended to be played using the 75 pop limit as opposed to 200 or more, so some of those "critical mass" units had no chance of reaching that level. I am though surprised that cavalry wasn't listed as a counter to skirmishers. It's like infantry, but even better at staying within their minimum range

[@melissagrenier2200]

75 archers 0 villagers let's go

[@Heshla_Biea]

The reason they didn't have monks as anti-siege is because, if I remember correctly, they had to stand right next to them to convert.

[@dakotaplatt8189]

Yeah, I was playing the other day and watched Monks convert my trebs from far away. I was confused af since they used to have to stand right next to them.

[@light_david7]

I thought monks had to stand up close to rams and trebs, and only could convert mangonels and scorpions from afar...

[@light_david7]

@Emperor AlHasan True, I can remember those times...

[@sevenpolar3483]

@Emperor AlHasan in age of kings you did have to stand next to an onager to convert it

[@alexborr1746]

ohhhhhh it wasn't a dream then!

[@Goabnb94]

Help! My enemy has a feudal age navy on a water map! Original devs: "have you tried countering with imperial age tech that isn't available with your civ?"

[@StriKe_jk]

Seeing the list I had an immediate thought: Bombard cannons were planned to track the opponent like scorpion and scorpion were planned to not track the opponent like the bombard cannon. If you then look on the list again and see the counters / non counters it suddenly starts to make sense for most of them.

[@satyakisil9711]

Were Bombard cannons really meant to track units? I cannot remember a single moment where they did. Scorpions did track units after Ballistics being researched.

[@Bleilock1]

@@satyakisil9711 i remember as a kid playing the original game without expansions (i got the first expansion, year after i got the original game, i had the same experience with AoM) and i remember that all gunpowder units would track targets and i also remember clear as a day, when AoE2HD came out, (friend got it, i didnt, i played it as his house) i remember thinking wtf is wrong with these gunpowder units in HD, i remember them being all way stronger than they are now(HD and later on), so i thought i had bad memory as a kid, but then recently i read the same thing this Strike jk dude says so it made me thinking and its probably true, a lot has changed through the years since this game came out

[@khankhomrad8855]

@@Bleilock1 take a look at the wiki. If there says that gunpowder units tracked moving units, then they did. If not, then they didn't. It would certainly make sense if they did as the bombard cannon is basically the onager from AoE 1 and the onager did track.

[@Bleilock1]

@@khankhomrad8855 wiki isnt be all end all but otherwise i agree with you but i dont think you understood me maybe i just remember gunpowder units hitting way better than they do today, today they are just too luckluster imo

[@DraconianEmpath]

(as per my recollection) bombard cannon shots moved crazy fast in AoC. I don't remember them needing ballistics to hit anything...

[@trevormills3339]

So HAPPY to see your channel booming, this game just came into my life and I love. I have no nostalgia attached to it, I played Warcraft 3 for 10 minutes and watched my friend play Age of Empires 1 one time. This game is something special for sure.

[@tyronejones3256]

Welcome to where the real RTS begins.

[@LuigianoMariano]

Ah yes, the super-vanilla counter guide that came with the ancient cd copies. A long-lost relic of a wonderful, yet bygone era whose information is long obsolete yet still has the power to invoke a warm feeling of nostalgia. Truly a piece of history that should be dedicated to a museum.

[@Badboyben1422]

I'm only guessing here, but whoever made this list probably only did test runs of 1v1 where units were right next to each other unless they made the infantry run toward ranged units and not really in masses as in the AOE 2 original campaign your max pop was always at 75 and you couldnt have a massive army without deleting all your vills. So again it's just a guess.

[@CaiRobinson]

Or even it was accurate but way back in the early development of the game. Things change, who knows what the game was like back then.

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@CaiRobinson 75 max pop should be a category in professional play, would be really entertaining.

[@khankhomrad8855]

There has been a LOT of balance changes since AoK. For example, bombard cannons had no siege bonus and about half health, and skirmishers had no anti-cav bonus and no pike bonus. This list is accurate for AoK but so, so much has changed since then.

[@benrobinson375]

Ah yeah I forgot about that population cap. It changes things quite a bit, and when you think of the modern day strategies people employ in this game, no one plays with 75 pop cap anymore.

[@fabriziocossio3336]

To be honest, the reason woad raiders are recommended so much againt siege and other slow units its probable due to their speed, and being able to close the gap faster than any infantry unit Of course againt mass siege or archer they lose their effectiveness for the most part

[@icarian553]

Like Spirit said in the video: Woad Raiders weren't that much faster in the Age of kings than other infantry. They got their big speed boost in The Conquerors.

[@satyakisil9711]

Woad Raiders were just counter-proof cavalry in their eyes. Don't forget that Hand Cannoneers had minimum range while having an extra research to unlock. And Janissaries had no bonus against infantry. And even though they were slower back then, so were all other infantry.

[@genericpersonx333]

@@icarian553 Not much faster, but they were still faster. The main thing is that they had stats comparable to the Swordsmen, an ordinary Woad Raider only slightly weaker than a Longswordman and an Elite Woad Raider similar to a Champion. Since the main threat to Siege at the time were Knights and Light Cavalry, this meant most people relied on Pikemen to defend the Siege, especially Trebuchets. A good Celt player made that difficult to do, because the Woads could meet and beat Pikes easily, forcing one to keep Champions or Knights to defend Siege rather than attack.

[@thomasschmierer2644]

Without thumb ring the woad raider was a lot harder to hit with archers.

[@1841rufus]

love the nostalgia, I purchased the CD new in 1999 and still love the game. I never realized just how much things had shifted - even in early expansions. It would be cool to see a video outlining some of the major changes over time. Although, it might be faster to just outline the things that have stayed the same! keep up the good work!

[@Rob9]

"Dude how much will you give me if I put Woad Raiders in every section?"

[@BJ-vl2vz]

Cataphracts shred halbs, especially after logistica in mass battles. Halbs will shave off some hp but the snowball will be too hard to stop. I didn't quite understand that one. All others were impeccable. Thanks again for the great content!

[@khankhomrad8855]

There were no halbs nor logistica back in AoK. Both were added in AoC.

[@BJ-vl2vz]

@@khankhomrad8855 I'm talking about DE

[@Zooooch1989]

Every time Spirit pauses between sentences in the first minute or so,I'm hoping to hear that sweet sweet intro

[@kekero540]

“SCOTLANDDDDD FOREVERRRRRRRRR!”-the guy who made this list.

[@CharlesMandore]

I believe it’s been stated elsewhere, but the woad raider is a fairly quick fella, and can close the gap pretty quick, much like how cavalry would.

[@Cysubtor_8vb]

"Over the last 21 years," man, I still remember getting into Age of Empires 1 from a demo on my computer, getting Gold Edition and then buying AoE II: The Age of Kings on the day it released... think I still have that big box they used to put the disks in, lol

[@harooooo1]

Zealotry and Bloodlines didnt exist so I think its pretty fair to say that hand cannoneers traded cost effectively vs mamelukes.

[@satyakisil9711]

Yes, and they were slower to close the gap as well.

[@GM_Lemmy]

20 years later... I still have my age2 counters guide intact! :)

[@lowfiend]

I still have the 3-tier foldout from when you bought the AoC box set with AoE2, as well as the booklet that came with it (that also gave a historical background to every unit in the game, I would love for a PDF to turn up somewhere.). Seeing that foldout modernized was such a trip, thank you SOTL. You made my 14 year old heart very happy.

[@aaronishappy]

At 10:40 when you said "For Galleys and Longboats" I honestly thought you were about to say "... they say to use Fire Ships and Woad Raiders"

[@janruudschutrups9382]

8:27 I don't see it listed on the original counter list or mentioned as an alternative by you but personally I find mangonels and onagers to counter any type of ram very well. Especially in a defensive situation where the enemy sends hordes of rams at your walls or castles.

[@funny_liquid7111]

Hey spirit! great video as always, and speaking of the old age of kings, I would love to watch a video on how the old age of kings was diffrent then now, like all the techs to unlock gunpowder that are no longer today, old times when you needed to pay pretty expensive for cartography, and how the game played out with no bloodlines halbediers and thumbring, (abviously Franks were OP)

[@ailius1520]

2:05 - Oh, so Longbows and Chu Ko Nu counter Samurai! That's not what SotL said in his unique units counter video! I'm starting to think he's holding out on ways to counter the Japanese.

[@andrewj1754]

Pretty sure all his videos are about buffing Japanese or hiding counters :D I'm not complaining. When I first started playing, Japanese were my civ.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

I think I know why Woads are suggested so much, on paper they were supposed to be an infantry unit (so high damage/armour) but fast. In practice though their speed, particularly in AoK, was outclassed by cavalry, who also weren't slouches in damage output and staying power. One other thing I noticed is that they discount micro and gameflow (understandable, given we now look back with millions of hours of combined playtime), which is especially noticable with archers and skirms. On paper, pike>skirm, but not in practice, where you just kite back and kill them, and as Spirit said, any ranged unit in large numbers becomes a sort of universal counter.

[@raulfernandez57]

You forgot a really big one, Spirit. Rams beat trebuchets if they catch them up close. You *know* the massive damage they deal against them. I think it was also that way back in AoK.

[@raidarthegunwizard4520]

Maybe because in AoK you can't garrison the ram with infantry which makes them slower. Therefore the enemy have more time to react

[@raulfernandez57]

@@raidarthegunwizard4520 True that. Also, I forgot that it's not just Trebutchets but other siege as well (I don't believe they do huge damage to the new siege elephants).

[@100toeface]

Woads are good against archers. I use them all the time vs archers if I’m Celts. Just make sure to upgrade their pierce armor. People forget that archers have no bonus vs infantry per se, and their advantage comes because they get some attacks in before the infantry closes the distance. High speed units negate this advantage. Try it. now, archers with a meat shield would negate the woad speed advantage and then become good again.

[@MLPCloudCuckoolander]

Nice work! You've been very thorough and highlighted some unintuitive unit strengths and weaknesses. One thing I am sceptical of is leaving pikemen in the list of mameluke counters since, like with cavalry archers, it depends on whether effective hit-and-run tactics are being used: Spearman-line units can take down mamelukes quickly if they get up close, but that's not an easy task since mamelukes can outrange and outrun them.

[@Cronoboro]

I would add Condottieri when speaking about Hand cannonneers and jannisarries

[@petraoleum5816]

In AoK, Camels were the ships of the desert, while Bombard Cannons were the Woad Raiders of the high seas

[@NolDragon]

1:37 I love how it looks like one of the arrows is bouncing off the ram to hit the blue skirmisher.

[@alexandruokos6930]

In the old game, at least, trebouchets were excellent counters to navy. Far better than bombard cannons or keeps. They outrange cannon galeons. With the ground attack feature they can create an awesome artillery barage that will deny enemy access. A battery of 5 trebs hidden behind a pillbox wall was enough to defend a dock

[@rahzoriel2103]

When I got this game I was so in love with it due to my excellent experience with AoE I I took both the chart and the manual to the bathroom and read them. Good old MSN Gaming Zone days...

[@SeSeReRfRf]

Ive always referred back to the original list, but its good to know that its not 100% accurate anymore and that I can use this video as my list now lol

[@theadventuresofsonnysaintp7650]

Thanks, this update/revision really helped me improve my game and land my first win against “hardest” AI.

[@Binarokaro]

Not gonna lie, when I first started playing this long ago, I genuinely thought that the mangonel line was a go-to counter against infantry, with the area damage and all that, and I would have never thought that they're actually better against archers. But I suppose after practical experience and lots of SotL videos, I've come to better understand what their true strengths and weaknesses are.

[@globuspolski707]

I still have all of the little pamphlets and instruction books for all 3 of the games and their expansions, I used to sit around for hours just looking through them when I was a kid

[@hansoskar1911]

The woad Raiders show up as siege counters bc the speed and their really good armor type makes it really hard to kill them before they eat any siege unit. You could protect from cavalry with 10 pikes/halbs reasonably but there were not that great a counter to Woad Raiders.(HC got their +10 infantry bonus only with AOC) There is a reason why in Celt Mirrors there are rarely any Siege Units in Imperial Age and everything is abotu Castle and Farming numbers. In AOK BBC didnt have Siege bonus dmg so they didnt actually 1-shot Onagers

[@swyte]

I remember screwing around on Age of Kings when I was 3 years old or somethin. Gotta thank my mom for introducing this game to me 🤣

[@riaz8783]

Never too late to get on the Woad Raiders meta

[@rerunroger]

I believe Woad Raiders, and in fact the several other unique units mentioned, were emphasized so frequently because they're units players would have access to in the single player campaigns. I don't remember exactly who got a campaign, but Celts, Teutons, Franks and Saracens were among those I do remember, so their uniques being mentioned seems to align with that.

[@Nimroc]

Kipchak definitely would be among the ram counters these days, though Cumans isn't a Age of Kings civ. lol

[@manupainkiller]

Hey Spirit, this is a great idea (original counters vs now) for this video ! Many thanks !

[@nopenopeington3727]

Original devs thought woads were the best unit in the game

[@klop3re]

They were one of the fastest units back then ^^

[@candrarazaka4351]

There's no such thing called as "eagle warriors" before

[@sauravtripathi4128]

That's no joke actually. In AoK, performaning a FI and mass producing Champions was a very viable strategy. To nerf this, AoC introduced Bloodlines for Cavalry and Thumb Ring for Archers, and it removed the need to research Hand Cannon to make Hand Cannoneers available. Woad Raiders are just Champions but at steroids. They moved 33% faster than Champions without Squires, 21% faster than Champions with Squires and 16% faster than Celtic Champions. That's huge actually.

[@FireBlade57]

I had this big 600 page Aoe2 book back in the day and really worked through it with a text marker and notes. Fun times.. ^^

[@tavish1658]

I always wondered if reversing the water triangle would make water battles more interesting. Galley -> Fire Ship -> Demolition Ship -> Galley. If the enemy has an abundance of galleys, which is the most straight forward tactic, then you can counter it with a few well placed demo ships. So to prevent that, you mix a few fire ships in there, which in theory should be better for the game, because it wants you to mix your armies, by making people add in a few fire ships to their galley army, to prevent demos, from blowing everything up. It would inherently also make vikings stronger in the early game, since they don't have fire ships, to skirmish the first few battles in feudal age. Just a thought.

[@GummieI]

for the archers the game were kinda intended to be played at 75 pop I think originally, so the whole massing of archers would then never happen. And for bombard canon countering ships my guess there is that the thought-process being, because of its range it would always be able to hit ships from land even if they were quite far out, in case you don't have your own navy (and again because of the low intended pop to be played at, there might be cases where on mixed water/land maps that you would forgo navy totally, but the enemy might make one

[@MrFatalSilence]

For countering CA I would also take out archers, at least against fully upgraded CA. One of CA's big advantages is their high pierce armor. I absolutely love watching arbs melt before my Magyar CA.

[@markdowse3572]

This is a GREAT video for me because AoE2 (original) is the only version of the game that I have - my PC's specs are too crappy to play the new game..... 😢😢😢 And I bought my game online, so never got the handy "counter units" info sheet. 😕 Thank you, SOTL!

[@temerri]

I'm pretty sure Woad Raiders were supposed to be a cavalry unit, as when I got the game I clearly remember them being referenced as a mounted unit in several descriptions.

[@TheAlleriaH]

Maybe woad raiders get mentionned so often because the Celts are the civ from the tutorial campaign. Also Genoese crossbows as counter to cav archers I'd say.

[@c182SkylaneRG]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure this chart was intended for even-numbers fights (not necessarily even-resources). So 5 knights vs 5 monks, the knights win. 5 knights vs 20 monks is when the knights lose, but 5 halbardiers vs 20 knights or war elephants and the halbs lose, too. That, or 1v1 fights. In a 1v1 fight, archers have a HELL of a time getting through high-pierce-armor targets, even if you can micro them like crazy, and a knight might be able to close on a monk and take it out before it gets converted. Without thumb ring, archers take even longer, because they occasionally miss the target.

[@tonicus123]

Woad Raiders were the flagship unit in age of kings. They were the game changer unit in one of the tutorial missions and they probably thought it would be a powerhouse unit.

[@delinard3401]

Woad Raiders meta confirmed

[@Kolmaryn]

i still have the original AoK manual and counters guide lol. i remember playing it on my dad's 2001 Dell. fun times.

[@MajorTomFisher]

Making a case for Bombard Cannons v.s. ships, if your enemy's ships are massed up or the AI keeps sending the same three fire ships to come after your dock, bombard cannons can actually work as a sort of mobile bombard tower. I've done it in a few of the campaigns and I've had it used on me in the campaigns too. (I think in one of the El Cid scenarios there's an island guarded by bombard cannons and a castle.) Really though it's more of a counter with an AI that can't micro or a player that's not paying attention.

[@MrMarinus18]

10:50 Actually maybe giving Bombard cannons a large bonus against ships could be interesting. Maybe also give them much faster projectiles when firing on ships.

[@jeroen92]

I think this counter list is based on campaign/AI, for example the AI usually only adds 1 or 2 siege units in an attacking force in CD version, so woad raiders can easily swarm and thus counter that.

[@AmericanRX]

Well folks, I think we know what to do.....make Woad Raiders a best counter meme.

[@alt0248]

My friend had the strategy guide and it came with an enormous version of fold out.

[@jaybonn5973]

I love how this channel has become more memey and the thin layer of mania covering the title

[@adnanhuzaifa6391]

i am a very simple kid i see mr spirit of the law's video i click and hit the like button every time before even seeing the video btw i have never missed any of your videos since i started my first one

[@ProfNekko]

I feel the reason that Bombards are stated as a counter to ships is because if you're having a coastal combat bombards can set utter hell on enemy ships and if there's a naval battle close enough it can turn the tide quite well while being safe from ship attacks

[@Cblazer100]

Love this video man! This type of content so helpful, even for seasoned players!

[@hansdampf1764]

I totally forgot, that there where no husars and helbadiers in age of King’s, although I played it every day back then and just startet again four years ago

[@mattlozinski1700]

All the Woad Raiders is probably an after effect of the celts usually being the first civ new players would play cause of the intro campaign

[@firockfinion3326]

"Any melee unit that can get close is gonna take them out pretty easily." Wasn't the whole specialty of the woad raider that they move extra fast? So wouldn't that be why they were considered "anti-siege" at the time?

[@MrMarinus18]

4:20 In AoK mamelukes were actually considered infantry units rather than archer units so the hand cannoneer instead of the skirmisher makes sense.

[@Keln02]

I have the huuuuuge guide book at home :) Nostalgia: over 9000

[@ollyclass]

Maybe hand cannoneers were going to have anti cavalry damage that's why they were said to be used against mamalukes. Like how the cavalry charge was killed by guns and cannons.

[@Septimus_ii]

Cavalry wasn't stopped by gunpowder - only by pikes or musketeers supported by pikes until the early-modern period

[@SethBennion]

23 years later, in 2022, this game is still popular and receiving a half expansion about every 8 months. We have 41 civs, and the third definitive edition expansion is already underway.

[@yorib.4014]

A tournament with old settings and civs would be interesting.

[@sauravtripathi4128]

Man, you underrate Woad Raiders too much. They are one of the best infantry units in the game. They form an exclusive list with Condotierri, Huskarls and Eagle units of being the only raiding infantry units in the game, which makes all of them much harder to counter as compared to Tarkans and Paladins which can be easily countered by Halberdiers. Woad Raiders vs archers is a debatable matchup just like Mangudai vs Halberdiers. But they are great at taking out siege (scorpions included), eagle units, trash units, camels, steppe lancers, villagers, monks and are gold efficient vs Magyar Paladins. They may struggle against the new Battle Elephant (previously it was sure), mounted archers, Mamelukes, Throwing Axemen, Leitis, Boyars, Gbetos, massed SO (but not onager) and definitely against war Elephants, Teuton non-trash infantry and Cavalry.

[@serbulentsenturk1326]

This is the comment which i look for ! Those pyjama guys are no joke..

[@kritic4622]

an updated pdf would be so awesome!

[@joeboi8284]

SotL: Makes video about counter units. Woad Raiders: Am I a joke to you?

[@petersmythe6462]

Also with bombard cannons... the bloody thing is 450 resources and very gold intensive for a late imperial age unit. I would say anything that can get within melee range will trade very cost effectively.

[@MrZodiac011]

I still have mine, with the big book, I think it was a strategy guide or something. Funny because the copy wasn't originally mine, was from my uncle and i'd assume it's older than me by a year

[@cataphracts123]

They may have been thinking AI occasionally. Bombard cannons, when you get multiples, are good against galleys micro'd by the ai.

[@graphitebendy]

At that point, Mamelukes were Infantry, hence Hand Cannons and Janissaries(which had bonus vs infantry) were counters

[@HAHA4625]

I remember the tutorial or something recommending knights to fight monks and it's the craziest thing