Let's Talk About Mary Sues

[@Makimaroma]

Marvel when feminism isn't about women having zero flaws and solving obstacles with little to no effort: 😱😱😱

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

X-Statix had women super heroes (heroines) that were real. U GO GIRL... Venus Dee Milo... Saint-Anna... amazing heroines

[@Fantomstranger]

x men 97 had well written female characters so did loki but no one talks about that

[@bunnyconcubus8468]

This is just factually in correct. Marvel has no Mary Sue characters, rage baiters online it's not really as simply as they try to paint her out to be. Most Mary Sue characters that these people claim they are don't exactly fit that mold and it's very clear that's not the case, either the big suits or writers lost the sauce and it doesn't fit the mold of the trope, but its close enough to lie about it.

[@bigplayorrekt]

Shut it nerd ​@@bunnyconcubus8468

[@Naknave]

@@bunnyconcubus8468captain marvel absolutely was, some others aren’t but captain marvel was painfully boring because of it

[@Colorlightt]

I do agree there is unfair scrutiny towards women. And yet for some strange reason, everyone loves Avatars female cast, even though they are powerful prodigies. It's also a show that repeatedly touches on sexism. It works because you can sense that they aren't trying to make a point of them being powerful because they're women, they're just powerful characters recognized for their merit alone. Women learn lessons from men, men learn lessons from women. You get a sense that there is respect for men, whereas a lot of shows and movies seem to have this bitter hatred of men and even femininity itself.

[@WeebGuru6]

Yup

[@Fantomstranger]

I have seen some people call korra a marry sue though

[@orangmawas3858]

​@@FantomstrangerBecause she is. She has learned how to use (almost) all the elements as a toddler & everyone treats her way better than she deserves, even when she does bad & very stupid things. The original comment is talking about the original series.

[@xedusk]

@@FantomstrangerLike OP pointed out, the original show had respect. Korra does not. It literally starts with her saying, “I’m the avatar and you’ve gotta deal with it,” while she bends three elements as a toddler. It’s like the exact opposite of what OP is pointing out about the original series.

[@douglasphillips5870]

Korra is powerful, but she's a goof ball. Part of her arc is that she's not as good as people expect her to be, especially in social situations, and she has to learn that it's about more than just beating up the bad guy.

[@陳潔明-w6y]

You forgot to include Rock Johnson lol... For all the disappointment Disney female characterizations are, Dwayne's "not losing fights" rule in his contract makes them seem tame in comparison

[@kaminaridenki._.]

wait, that's true? DAMN, talk about a big ego...

[@陳潔明-w6y]

@kaminaridenki._. Like at worst, the female characters that qualify as "Mary Sues" are just badly written characters not unlike other badly written male characters. The actors often don't have much control over the characterization. For Dwayne? He wanted to be the Mary Sue...

[@cosmicspacething3474]

He couldn't even fight Shazam, and tie, or have the fight be interrupted...

[@jojoexperience8693]

@@cosmicspacething3474he skipped Shazam altogether because she wanted to fight Superman

[@TheShadowOfNidhoeggr]

Among the older anime and manga fans the Gary Stu archetype is not exactly beloved either and plenty of people are aware of it. But let's be real here, the protagonists of 90% of isekai being blatant Gary Stu's is the least of those stories problems... catgirl slave harems, DQ-on-Wish worldbuilding, shoddy RPG mechanics... the standards are so low that having a wish-fulfillment Gary Stu doesn't even stand out as being that much worse than.. basically every other aspect of these series. PS: Truly, Sword Art Online and other late 00s LN have killed off traditional, more Shoujo-esque isekai and replaced it with terrible slop. Oh, how I miss the days of Twelve Kingdoms and Escaflowne....

[@WeebGuru6]

Facts

[@leviadragon99]

And yet, there is still a double-standard in how those characters are received (and often beloved) and how powerful female characters are received. Hell, those additional storytelling sins in power fantasy gary stu isekai are typically overlooked or even embraced by the fans, who are numerous enough to make those shows popular.

[@icarue993]

My first few anime (Pokemon, Digimon, etc aside) were the isekais. I started watching in the early 2010s right when SAO started popping off. I enjoyed SAO... at first. The more I read the more I dislike the series. And needless to say, Gary's Stus keep up coming after that. But I have to say, I don't hate ALL of them, just most of them. Yes, Rimuru is a Gary Stu, but the story is interesting enough to put it aside. For SAO, the story is bad, the characters are bad, the romances are worse, but the setting is interesting, which might have been one of its appeals (so if you remove story and characters, keep the setting, and bring another writer (SAO Abridge, SAO GG alternative) you have a decent, or atoutright good, story (though Kirito from SAOA is not a Gary Stu, the opposite actually) Something like Monster Musume has a bland board of a protagonist, arguably a Gary Stu, but the ladies around him are much more interesting in comparison (and a chaos to live with, they are clearly grateful the protagonist to handle them). But something like Date a live and other harems with a bland and boring protagonist don't get the same pass because the ladies are not as interesting. Its a very weird balance to walk if you add a Gary Stu. Makes me wonder why not simply add a normal protagonist. Kazuma from Konosuba is a... below average in terms of nobility, but he IS a character. And the ladies don't even want him in that way, they are just friends. So not every isekai need a Gary Stu. Actually, one Gary Stu from a recent anime I REALLY like, is Rentarou from 100 Girlfriends. He is perfect to an EXCESSIVE degree. He spends sleepless nights making her mute GF be able to "talk", takes dangerous drugs to make her pharmaceutical GF happy, and work multiple jobs (offscreen) to keep paying for all the trips and food. He is loved by mostly everyone, anyone that opposes him is wrong, etc etc.

[@cheesypoohalo]

'DQ-on-Wish worldbuilding' what does this mean?

[@TheShadowOfNidhoeggr]

@@cheesypoohalo When you have an ostensibly genuine high fantasy world, but the clothes and tech does not match the time period, you got the obligatory adventurer's guild, a demon lord and heroes party that is named EXACTLY that because what is creativity when it comes to nomenclatura, the classic circular city core with exactly one river flowing through it, comically evil and inept aristocracy, etc. In short: You notice that the author wants to build a real fantasy world, but that his only experience with other fantasy worlds is not Tolkien, Martin or Lewis, but instead just a bad remix of Dragon Quest, Sengoku Rance and whatever VN he played when he was younger. It's really surface level stuff that is just interchangable and offensively devoid of fantasy.

[@douglasphillips5870]

I prefer the term Marry Sue because that was the name of the character. There is no character named Garry Stu, it just rhymes with Marry Sue. It's like calling a woman detective a Shirley Holmes instead of Sherlock Holmes. There is a famous detective named Sherlock Holmes, that's what you're comparing her too. If you want to call a male character like that Kirito, that makes sense

[@cosmicspacething3474]

This

[@sapientbirb7350]

From what I can tell, the reason why people don't react to Garry Stues as strongly as Marry Sues is due to how their respective defenders react and how anybody outside of whatever fandom would react to said defenses. When it comes to Garry Stue defenders, most would normally be laughed into irrelevance or would make an entire brand infamous for having brain-dead defenders. Even when the description of a Garry Stue is unfairly placed on a Paragon. But it's not all that uncommon to find someone that can point out all the flaws in the films they like, but still ultimately enjoy them. With Marry Sue defenders, they very quickly turn an amoral debate into a moral debate. Usually, marketing the dislike of a Marry Sue as purely being the result of sexism, which attracts the attention of people who obsessively try to promote women as though they're a hivemind moral authority, while ironically making women out to be so pathetically weak that they need the blind support of the entire world to continue on with their lives, and everybody who absolutely hates being stereotyped and ordered to either only sing the praises of a film or say nothing whatsoever. Which is made even worse when the fans try to look to every headcanon and third-party source for any and all excuses for the flaws, or if there's a perceived hypocrisy that falls along the lines of, "When a man does it, it's sexist. When a woman does it, it's good business."

[@someguy8081]

I agree with Mary sue being overused but if I had to guess the reason they’re criticized more than Gary Stus it’s because whenever “Mary sues” are used in stuff like marvel movies you get stuff like she hulk and captain marvel, where every male character is a whiny douche punching bag for the “strong independent female lead” the power fantasy is less about becoming super powerful and more about proving that women are better than men. For me personally, when character writing is shafted in order to push an agenda is what I hate not the mary sue trope.

[@ExeErdna]

The throwing out of world building, Like look at the Movie "The Marvels" a lot of events that happened with Carol Danvers happened off screen like that COULD have been a whole movie on it's own show and humanizing her. The better movie was one we'll never see, I can't stand that how you have great world building being side plot? Women's content get shafted so much because they don't have faith in it. That's why they end up on that Mary Sue's edge

[@hecticfunentertainment9373]

there is one more reason why mary sues are hated is because they are changing establish love characters such as star wars, marvel, and scooby doo. in isekai they make a whole new world. so even though it was badly written they arent touching any beloved characters

[@deandredukes95]

Imagine if there’s an actual person named Mary Sue

[@aetherwolf9288]

The trope name needed to come from somewhere. And the author was maybe inspired by a real person. But yeah its similar to the name Kevin or here in germany Günther. Just too many memes are tied to certain names, it is hilarious

[@DeathUponYou133]

i think that was the name of either the person who wrote a Star Trek fanfic way back in the day or the name of the self insert of that fanfic. i can't remember but it was one of those.

[@CarrionKnight]

The big criticism of these characters I would argue is a few things. Before I begin, I would like to state that I don't like the term 'Mary Sue' as a form of criticism, I think the term 'poorly executed power fantasy', 'OC' (in reference to fanfiction culture) or just standard terms for critique are better, though in a short hand casual conversation it gets the point well enough. Part of the issue with the term is its gender specificity, I would say that pulp fiction is filled with male Mary Sue type characters (Gor, Conan when he isn't written right) as well as political fiction (Ayn Rand). 1.) Lack of agency in the plot. Things happen to them and they don't really take agency, but no matter what happens to them they always come out on top. I remember watching TLOK that it just kinda felt empty, even suspending my disbelief that the heroes wouldn't win was the section where her Chi channels got locked and she just...got different ones opened, I think having her rely on her martial arts would have been interesting, but instead the plot just gives it to her and sets her loose on the bad guys. Relating to the point of agency in the plot, if she will always win a fight and always be given a special way out, she doesn't have 'agency' or danger in her life, she is being pushed along by the plot to be the avatar and the avatar always has bending. This does extend to the larger point of it being a children's show, and children's media will generally do things like that. 2.) Poor depth of character. Rey in starwars was by far a worse protagonist than Fin, Fin was charismatic and had an interesting discussion of redemption and developing ones identity after leaving a brutal, totalitarian society which totally dehumanizes a person. Rey on the other hand was just a generic search for lineage plotline that ultimately went nowhere. Her position at the center of the story made what would have been a good subplot into the main plot, thereby weakening the films as a whole. This extends to her reactions, she's such a blank slate that her reactions boil down to the most generic possible ones. She doesn't become callous, morose or grim, nor does she fall into a pit of zealotry and feel the rush victory. She just remains blithe towards everything, naively happy or sad, but her emotions are never complicated. Even in the Kylo ren plotline her emotions seem like they were written to just barely progress a romance plotline. (Kylo would have also made an excellent protagonist) 3.) Gimmes. In SAO the main character Kirito pulls abilities out of thin air or with little justification, even in the second game where he starts over from scratch, he's still just...better than everyone else (yes I subjected myself to both seasons, yes, I was nine and thought it was good). Gimmes are when the plot ensures that things always go the way of the character, even if it has to bend over backwards to accomplish it, like adding a 'god form' after the final form of the main character so that they can power up one last time at the end of the series. Every writer does Gimmes to a certain extent, but the 'OC' characters typically receive more than their fair share. 4.) Poorly executed political messaging. In Ayn Rands book Anthem Equality 7-2521 (or any of her characters for that matter) is representative of her beliefs in objectivism, but the execution is so on the nose and the antagonists are such obviously evil stand ins for people she personally or politically doesn't like that it makes what would have been an otherwise competent societal critique implode under the weight of its own incompetence. This is also not to say that a piece of media cannot or should not have messaging, nor that messaging you don't agree with cause media to be bad by that merit. I thoroughly enjoy Lovecraft but I disagree with him on a great deal of things, but the writing in his stories is coherent and not self destructive. Lovecraft's characters often being racists with fears of the unknown like himself made for excellent characterizations and interesting characters (and helped him slowly improve himself as he renounced some of his beliefs near the end of his life). This also applies to things like the original Mulan which has a direct 'girl power' type of message more relevant to the video, Mulan managed to achieve this by ultimately showing that the competence of the individual is not because of their sex but in spite of it. 5.) Authorial self insert. This one is self explanatory, no one likes a self insert. Many of these characters serve as personal self inserts designed for the author to let out their inner angst against things in their life or engage with characters they want to engage with. This is the case with the original Star-Trek Mary Sue story where the term actually originated which was itself a parody of many stories written around the time. Self inserts are (Almost) always bad regardless of the character. One critique of the video is I think the 'Male vs Female' fandom critique was poorly handled. I think all internet fandoms are equally horrible and they show it in different ways, female fandoms in particular I've noticed have enormous bullying and harassment issues, especially around artists (Steven universe, BTS, Swifities, Homestuck, Hamilton, etc). The better critique would be that fandoms on the internet led by people who do nothing but consume that content are generally hostile because they don't have anything better to do. I'm not defending male groups either, the TTRPG space on the internet is probably one of the worst I've ever seen in terms of its culture (especially 5E and WOTC), but generally speaking I would say that internet fandoms are just horrendous places to spend time. This is also not to say that liking these things is bad. Unless the content is truly ethically objectionable (CSE material, Gore, etc) you aren't a bad person for consuming it and nor should you feel bad for consuming it. What is bad is not accepting criticism of your media or being hostile towards those who don't like it. I would say that this video is good in that I did come back a few days later to comment on it and I think that some of the points you made were excellent, others weren't ideal or were clearly made while aggravated or impassioned by something. I do generally agree with the other things on your channel (although world building disease isn't a real issue, I can quit any time I want man).

[@ScritRighter]

I think you should make video essays too lol. I'd watch.

[@charade539]

This is why I tend to just say "I don't like X" instead of giving a character a label. Then, if needed, I can explain what I don't like specifically. It removes the gender from the issue (hopefully). Buuuut I'm also more forgiving of bad characters in general, I read a lot of "junkfood" books, and have a weakness for the dumb isekais.

[@naomistarlight6178]

Right, you can just say "character you don't like" without having to use a sexist term.

[@diazkohen2149]

What's actually Gary Stu/Mary Sue definition? At least for me, they are like supermassive black hole. Universe bend toward MC. Their gravity power is insanely overpower. The logic, nature, or universe law bias toward MC. The allies worship MC like God, neutral faction looks evil suddenly if they have little bit dissagrement. The enemy suddenly are ready to taking action, wasting time and resourceful, just to make sure that MC is having a bad day🤦 You know one of those stories that scripted like video game, when the story and plot is starting as soon as player appear...Detective Conan is fucking great example how shit happen (murder or other cases) as soon as Conan appear, in every goddamn episode. Or in fantasy/isekai, demon king was sleeping or got sealed by previous hero party. But as soon as MC is isekaid, suddenly demon king wakes up or the seal is broken...Why does that happen? Because of the plot. MC typical has one privilege: plot armor, so they cant die. But if they die, usually it will be scripted until the final moment, the final episode, for the heroic sacrifice. But Gary Stu/Mary Sue privilege is just another level...To put it simply, they are god. Imagine you play game in easy difficulty (plot armor) + your player character has full stats, unlimited mana/energy (Overpower MC). Competent is not enough to describe Gary Stu/Mary Sue. Their skill or ability must be overpower + universe bend toward them (plot armor, deus ex machina, etc).

[@พีรันธร]

I disargee in story. I think it common if plot start when Mc come to this place. it baiscy if writer skip boring part (dilay life,traveling ,working etc) and fous story by start plot in right set up.Imagine you play open world game travel point A to ponit B witout fast travel it bored and unnecessary to show.

[@rsfakqj10rsf-33]

Mary sue and gary stu mean that the character is getting what they want most of the time with relative ease, and is portrayed as a positive things. Sukuna is a villain, he is not portrayed to be in the right. Ichigo got bitch slapped by stronger opponents all the time, and despite his bloodline trait, he still has to make sacrifice and training to achieve his current power level. There’s no reason to consider them as such.

[@kaminaridenki._.]

5:50 i think that a basic pre-requisit to being a Mary Sue is being the protagonist of the show, because even though Sukuna is glazed everytime, he still is a threat to be defeated, and that glazing is a build-up of that threat rather than a positive connotation for us the audience which are supposed to be in Yuji's shoes

[@kaminaridenki._.]

12:50 damn, the trap was placed and i fell right into it xD

[@revenantronin8377]

Neither Superman, nor Ichigo are Mary Sue characters. For batman, it depends on the iteration of the character. Being a Mary Sue doesn't mean being strong, intelligent and competent. It means a character whose strength, intelligence and competence UNDERMINES the entire story and plot, there's no reason to care for such a character, they aren't relatable, they do not face any internal or external struggles, and there isn't any real stakes in their narrative because you just know that somehow, they will always overcome any obstacle easily. Because, going by the examples you gave, that would include 99% of protagonists. Saitama is not a Mary Sue because his struggles are internal, despite all external battles ending in often just one punch. Anos is a Mary Sue because just like Saitama, he ends fights very easily and overcomes every obstacle without much difficulty, famously known as the guy who asked a god that "you thought killing me would kill me?"... But unlike Saitama, there's no internal struggles, no growth really. Anos is, well, Anos from chapter/episode 1 to the end of his story. And that right there is the difference between Iron-man and Captain Marvel, they are both great right off the bat, yet Iron-man goes on a journey as his story unfolds and by the end of his story, that SNAP was earned. Captain Marvel starts out as great and by the end of her story, she gains a new appreciation for the greatness she knew all along that was within her, and the story goes out of its way to justify her actions no matter what. Sukuna in the end had the chance to be like a Mary Sue and accept what Mahito was saying, to accept his greatness, yet he saw the error in his ways even if it was too late. That IS a journey. You're not wrong in saying that there are male characters who are Mary Sues, however your understanding of the male Mary Sue character seems limited to just the surface level stuff that stands out. Characters with explored themes, philosophies, internal and/or external struggles, unique personalities and characterisation, do not fall under the Mary Sue label no matter how seemingly "great" they are. Lara Croft is not a Mary Sue yet she's the center of the story, Daenerys Targaryen is not Mary Sue yet she was the most powerful character that got everything she wanted, Wonder Woman is no Mary Sue and yet she's up there with Superman and Batman as DC's trinity, I could keep listing many female and male characters who fit your definition that aren't Mary Sues in the slightest. Do some people unnecessarily label any female protagonist as a Mary Sue, yes. Does that make them sexist? maybe But are Mary Sues pushed by the entertainment media more in recent times? Absolutely, yes. Wonder Woman doesn't even have an animated TV series, yet Harley Quinn is everywhere. People wouldn't care if there was a good balance, and that's why male Mary Sue aren't b*tched about as much as female ones, because there are MORE non-Mary Sue male characters out there than Mary Sues so they get drowned out, and the opposite is true for female characters especially in western media. So it's a false equivalence to say, male characters who are mary Sues aren't talked about as much as female Mary Sues. For every 100 good male MCs, there'd be like 1 Mary Sue from a trash series (often Isekai slop), but for every 10 good female MCs, there'd be like 4 Mary Sues from relevant and popular IPs. So of course, the female Mary sue is talked about more. Also, Sung Jinwoo ain't no Mary Sue... He's the Drippy Monarch lol, he is in some sense ngl but everybody knows that anyway. There's a reason why there's a genre called power fantasy. Boys and men know that such characters are Mary Sues, but that's the appeal and it applies to females too btw... For every Dante, there is a Bayonetta. For every Saint Seiya, there's a Sailor Moon. Those aren't fully Mary Sues, there's more to them.

[@ScritRighter]

I've been expecting you...

[@xedusk]

Something I feel like you missed is the differences people give to Gary Stu characters, other than just gender. Typically, Gary Stu characters are seen as more active to the plot, where Mary Sues are more passive.

[@Darth_Bateman]

5:24 - Sukuna isn't a Gary Stu, though. He's literally a murder hobo who is mad at the world because he had to fend for himself since being a baby in a world that saw him and was like : "It's on sight." since he was born.

[@Fantomstranger]

if anything I think picking gojo would be somewhat more accurate than sukuna at least

[@imfabulous3707]

@@Fantomstranger Even then, can you be a Gary Stu if your creator hates you?

[@Fantomstranger]

​@@imfabulous3707 I hope you are joking and don't actually believe he hates gojo

[@raginginsanity3718]

He’s saying if his gender was reversed he WOULD be one. Honestly……. Your comment low key proves a point he made about people arguing against Gary stews.

[@Fantomstranger]

@@raginginsanity3718 I feel most antagonists will fulfill that role like are we really gonna call the dude who was the strongest in his era and who lived for thousands of years honing his CE as garry stue? At that point pretty much anyone strong might as well be Garry stue

[@ovsvalencia]

Harry Potter IS a Gary Stue

[@Fantomstranger]

he still isn't really that strong in the grand scheme of things though like dumbledore or voldermort

[@charminsi]

Yeah too many things comes easy to Harry Like flying on a broomstick (and related to that Quidditch) as a first year with no exposure to flying beforehand Another one was in the sixth book where Harry was able to do an advanced spell he had never seen or tried before (Sectumsempra) on Draco It’s been a while since I’ve read all the books so I don’t remember many other examples but I’m sure they’re there.

[@MILOPETIT]

​@@Fantomstranger I mean he did beat Voldemort twice, once as a baby. If that's not a Mary Sue I don't know what is.

[@shfhsvomvolakis2318]

@@MILOPETIT he din't beat Voldemort as baby. His mother love magic deflect voldemort spell and in the books harry poter never beat voldemort. voldermont lost by having the elder wand while the elder wand was on harry poter control. Harry Poter never beat voldemort by his own powers.

[@MILOPETIT]

@@shfhsvomvolakis2318 Well if anything that makes him even more of a Mary Sue lmao

[@Lemonbread123]

Sukuna is definitely not a Gary Stu, he's an important and powerful legend in the jjk universe, and he hardly faces obstacles because it builds up a sense of fear and hopelessness, both for the characters and the readers. And the characters are definitely not bending their will to Sukuna, it's clear most characters know their limits and would logically praise Sukuna as the strongest and king of curses.

[@zacharybosley1935]

so he's not a gary stu, because his gary-stuness is vital to the plot? not for nothing, but that's not making him less of a gary stu, only trying to justify it in-context, which is kind-of what this video is about.

[@OrigamiMaster06]

Some things I'd disagree with in this video are some of your Gary Stu examples and that modern female characters come from a necessity for women to be perfect. I agree that there are high standards of perfection, but only in specific things. Actually, we expect the opposite a lot of the time. We expect women to be imperfect and less competent in things like their careers, technical skills, finacial responsibility, and leadership. But we do expect perfection in domestic, skills, beauty, and child rearing. If you're making the arguement that women NEED to be perfect in these aspects to be viewed as competent in those fields then that's a valid arguement, but I don't believe this expectation extends to media. There are lots of good examples of very strong and flawed female characters who are beloved by male audiences. Plus, we can't ignore the very obvious political movement backing this trend, a sizable part of which is hatred against men. This is evident in how stupid the male characters are shown as, or how all criticism or lack of viewership is discounted as sexism. Doesn't mean that there aren't sexists in these fandoms, but there are not as many as people say. I feel like it's pretty evident that a large part of it is laziness. Hollywood has become really lazy and is pitting us against each other to hide from the fact that their shit is awful and it's because they don't try. They don't want to even TRY to write women well which makes them the biggest sexists in this whole issue if you ask me. Otherwise, I agree with a lot of what you said. Solid video.

[@enickma910]

big disagree on sukuna because he's an antagonist, and mary sue/gary stu just doesn't apply to antagonists.

[@ScritRighter]

Joker from 'The Batman who laughs', Reverse Flash, Ramsay Bolton, certain iterations of Hannibal Lector, Bondrewd from Made in Abyss-

[@minichad5456]

Really? I have red so many arguments about people calling female antagonists Mary Su (for example The main antagonist from red notice). So why shouldn't male antagonists be called Gary stues as well?

[@enickma910]

@@ScritRighter I don't think you understand at all what a Mary Sue is. It's not "a powerful character." It's a self-insert character that everyone loves, is never humbled, can't be upstaged, and can't be an antagonist. An antagonist with the same traits as a Mary Sue has the exact opposite effect.

[@ScritRighter]

@@enickma910 Who is Rey a self insert of, then?

[@enickma910]

@@ScritRighter Rey is not the archetypical Mary Sue because she doesn't meet that criteria, she's just the closest approximation of the trope seen by the most eyes. Rey is intended to be the audience-insert by the cynical committee behind the sequel trilogy, which makes her like 90% of a Mary Sue. You should read the original Star Trek fanfiction from which the trope is named for the 100% textbook definition. Author intention is everything when it comes to Mary Sues. The intention of making the self-insert the most powerful and loved character is what makes a Mary Sue, otherwise you just have a powerful character.

[@luthor24127]

Good job on Critical Drinker impression there, lol.

[@СтефаноНачев]

Character being a Mary Sue doesn’t make it a bad character, Batman, Goku and Luke Skywalker are Mary Sues and they’re still good characters, perhaps the reason why the ones in your video are boring is different

[@陳潔明-w6y]

@СтефаноНачев Shit, even Batman gets boring in several major iterations... Batman Who Laughs, kids...

[@IdiotinGlans]

​@@陳潔明-w6ythe dame story tyat introduced batman who laughs also made it canon one of strongest beings in the multiverse ensured Batman is invincible because he needed Batman to escape Dark Multiverse, so he didn't want him to die

[@spaghetto9836]

It absolutely does, if they're the protagonist. The best iterations of Batman are never Gary Stu's, because he's challenged in some way by the villain, side characters & plot. Each villain is meant to challenge different parts of him, whether it's his combat skills, cunning, morality, etc. You'd typically have others disagreeing with his plans or actions, and he should also learn something by the end. The fact he's the world's best detective doesn't automatically make him perfect; we're just following the life of the world's best detective. You can make a character highly skilled without making them a Mary Sue.

[@IdiotinGlans]

@@spaghetto9836 except that is a fucking lie, Batman haven't been meanigfully challenged ever

[@John-fk2ky]

I think you need to actually look at a better definition of “Mary Sue”. If Luke were a Mary Sue, then why did he regularly get his ass kicked? None of those characters are universally liked, which takes away from the Mary Sue claim. And most importantly, they all have to overcome challenges with effort. Even the worst versions of Batman in terms of making him over-prepared for anything still put in him in situations where he wouldn’t have won with his training and planning ahead.

[@arivibin3318]

9:40 Scrit I love you and your content, however I want to discuss why I dont think you can say Anakin is a Gary Stu thats akin to Rey. Both Anakin and Rey are very good all rounder characters, both are charismatic, talented in the force on accidnet, talented in mechanical skill sets, prodigies in most feilds they come to but why Rey falls flat for me is how she never struggles with any emotional battle that lingers for longer than a single movie or scene besides her backstory elements which aren't even handled well there either. Anakin for all his strength and power fails many times to uphold what matters which is his integrity as a Jedi Knight and a proper balance between his emotions and responsibilities and that struggle is what seperates him from the Gary Stu name to me. Furthermore we do see him struggle and for every amazing feat he has he'll lose and arm, a mom, a Padme, his sanity. Rey lost her parents and nothing else ever which inherently disengaged me because her lack of struggle don't make me want to see her even attempt to try because she wouldn't do or do not she would just do. And even for a good amount of Anakin's skills they are explained via the dumb mitachlorian explanation in Phantom Menace, the fact he is the chosen one, his slave life and Watto himself using Ani for mechanic work lead to him growing an affinity for it, and even his piloting expertise can be shown as early as him being a pod racing maniac at such a young age. Rey on the other hand can use the force insanely well without having used it her entirelife beforehand, is somehow able to tend to the Falcon better than the guy whos been doing it for over 3 or so decades, was able to overpower Luke and Kylo both trained disciples of the force in combat on her first attempt and many more. I really want to like Rey as Daisy Ridley brings alot of personality to the character but unfortunately the medling behind the scenes with directorial problems and an unfocused vision lead to this. But this is why fanfiction exists right? Edit1: Okay I've finished the video now, i agree with the thesis but i feel like its tackling an extreme as I know alot of people who call out characters like Kirito and The Batman Who Laughs (He's much worse than Base Batman somehow you don't want to know) although I've also seen tubers like The Critical Drinker and I feel like he would be applicable for the kind of men you describe to a perfect T. I used to watch his content before realizing he just posts the same thing over and over with new coats of paint and wasn't actually engaging with any of the media he was discussing. Now I'm a man but I'm not white so maybe I'm not the type of men you speak of but at the same time I find it very reductive to generalize a large populus like that on a decently grey issue of media literacy. You're well within your right to do it lord knows if Matt Walsh makes another movie about trolling Twitter would combust but I do feel like the term Mary Sue has some weight to it when used correctly to illistrate issues with a story, not characters, story. Like you said yourself the Mary Sue is an issue of world not character where a insanely compitent characer is surpunded by incompetence. Overall I'm not sure how I feel on this video but I respect your points and view on the matter funny italian man on my screen.

[@IsabellaMathew]

Wasn’t Anakin like really hated?

[@arivibin3318]

​@@IsabellaMathew That depends, there is a subsection of the fandom who dislikes Anakin as they view him as an action hero which is somewhat fair but in general no Anakin is a well loved character especially in his Darth Vader era I have yet to find someone who dislikes Vader ❤ Edit 1: Just realized this but simply being disliked doesn't mean you're a Mary Sue either. People can argue that Spider-Man is a Mary Sue because he somehow rebounds from all the shit Marvel throws at him over and over again however it's a well established theme and ability of Peter that his will is absolute and if he loses it's because he's tried everything but he'll never lose his conviction and heroic nature

[@IsabellaMathew]

@@arivibin3318 oh. It’s just known that hate for character was so bad they harassed the kid so bad that he ended up killing himself.

[@ShadowNemesis575]

This is a VERY well thought out comment. Regardless of whether others agree or disagree with who is or isn't a gary stu/mary sue, your logic is sound, and that's rare to see when it comes to people debating characters and overall writing of shows/movies especially stuff like star wars.

[@arivibin3318]

@@IsabellaMathew . . . I don't follow can you explain this?-

[@shadowdragon7347]

Well now I know im not sexist. I have a problem with every one of the characters shown at 5:15

[@Swiizzelss]

didnt get a notification 💀 ive been waiting this whole time and theres been a video for 4 days.

[@Hepheat75]

I feel like I've seen this before.

[@Darth_Bateman]

You're gonna keep seeing it, unfortunately.

[@陳潔明-w6y]

@@Darth_Bateman That's unfortunately true with media discourses and Culture War stuff... Though honestly, this channel seems much much better than those channels...

[@stovespiegel]

Holy shit stop using interpolated animation as b roll please and thank you

[@coolpeeper1269]

PLEEEEEASE IT LOOKS SO BAD

[@ixnates]

editor here, that's my b. i hate interpolated animation as much as the next guy but sometimes the search for clips that don't get the video struck from heaven breaks me down

[@sharzinlalebazri5673]

I haven't watched JJK but isn't Sukuna a villain? IMO, Mary Sue / Gary Stu traits would actually turn from bad writing to good writing when they're applied to villains or mentor characters instead of main protagonists.

[@heywhat6676]

There are some very tired points constantly being repeated. Like women supposedly losing their femininity in media. it always surprises me when people complain about the new wave of 'ultra masculine' female characters, because...where are they?? a snarky pretty girlboss type character doesn't count for much. Women in media are moving away from the age-old expectations of demure femininity, but they are very far from masculine. A slightly masculine woman could lead a movie and suddenly there are thousands of discussions on how woke is ruining everything, despite the thousands of other existing feminine female characters that exist. Another thing is those cheap 'haha women smarter than men' jokes. I don't particularly like them either, but again, it was surprising how many people took them to mean that men and male characters are being hated and that women will soon dominate the entire industry and ruin everything lolol

[@mikubrot]

there are very few actually masc women in media bc people think wearing pants and having a job makes a woman masc apparently

[@jacobmay4319]

Not the Bleach slander 💀

[@SpdrnRepresentation]

Why is there so much interprelation in the B-Roll? Like it ugly. But yeah, that's basically the core problem with writing female character. Just keep the world consistent and give them flaws.

[@someguythatdoesstuff7658]

Thank you for having a level-headed and well thoughtout video on Mary Sues (AKA OP characters in general). Shit like this can easily devolve into really shallow critiques of... you know what.

[@V1Ultrakilllmao]

my glorious king Scrit has graced us with peak fiction yet again!

[@aetherwolf9288]

For me personally a Marry Sue type of character is someone who never faces consequences for their actions. And even if for some reason the plot needs them to face some sort of consequence, it never comes with change. Most super hero personas are falling in this trap, however most are okay because their none super hero form has problems and the discrepancy between the two create conflict. But even then the most important part about any character is perspective. Not only the viewers one but also the inuniverse one. A lovecraftian Horror figure in a urban fantasy story based on medieval times seems deeply out of place. But so is the unexplained power up or even decision of a character to solve an issue. Marry Sues are a consequence of poor tone and poor explanation. Its like a murder mystery without a murderer and no deeper theme besides being a murder mystery. Because even a murder mystery without a murder can be very interesting if someone wanted another person to be convicted of a murder. So the conclusion of this video and this comment should be: „There are no bad stories or characters. Just wrong perspectives and horrible execution“. Thanks for reading Have a nice day AEther

[@Eridna]

Hey Scrit, what are your thoughts in Klein Moretti? I've been told he's quite the Gary Stue, but during my time actually reading the series I only noticed some elements of a Gary Stue in his character. Even though I get what people mean when they say he's a Gary Stue, I still think he's a very well written character that does get challenged in ideals and ordeals. But I do know there are other people out there with other opinions and I want to know about yours since you seem to look at things from a well formed perspective.

[@DOG_EATER_1887]

I agree with a lot of ur opinions but i am curious what qualifies you to talk about writing? just a thought I've had after seeing so many randos start critiquing

[@ScritRighter]

I write and a rough draft of my book is available to read/ linked in the description of every video.

[@Davidstock-tv1lv]

People do say that Harry is a self insert

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Instead of saying "gary stu" People should just learn better media literacy...

[@TrevorDiamante]

A villain can't be a Mary Sue. It's a complete misusage of trope terminology. The whole point of terms like Mary Sue, plot armor contrary to popular belief is they're meant to be for protaganists/good guys.

[@hecticfunentertainment9373]

a supposed villian can be, but it largely depends on execution of the character

[@thefarmer6541]

There are terms for villian Mary sues

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

MARVEL'S X-Statix had women super heroes (heroines) that were real. U GO GIRL... Venus Dee Milo... Saint-Anna... amazing heroines... best tv show they never thought of making = BETTER THAN THE BOYS !!!!!! X-statix is > Guardians of the galaxy, as anti-heroes, they even beat Suicide Squad and the far superior VILAINS UNITED

[@supsup335]

I must protest ichigo from bleach as a gary stue. And before anyone yells at me, yes, he hast the qualities in his character, but the story and world of bleach are not those of a gary stue. After all, the whole point of the story of bleach, spoiler, is about ichigo being an experimental being that was created and manipulated to be used by others, while those who played the strings long before he was born, are fighting a war of manipulation against each other, trying to get him to fullfil their goals, while the poor basard is stuck in the middle, just trying to get by.

[@hecticfunentertainment9373]

i do think the character is lowest spectrum of mary sue. When i watches the anime everyone did not like him from the spirit world and it took ahwile for him to get a hang of using his soul power

[@supsup335]

@@hecticfunentertainment9373 And even then, he had to literally fight for everything he gained. Is he overpowered, yes. But it always takes a while, and he is nevr given anything, aside from a few opportunities. But htose aren't to his benefit. That would be like going up to some random guy and giving him superpowers for free, but with the intention to use him to overthrow the government. World isn't bending to accomadate the character, he is a tool.

[@SaucedUpStinkyGrandpa]

Good video, it helps with my writing. Thanks!

[@ucnguyen6375]

the HP part's voice is so spot on

[@ats8551]

I would say sukuna is a mary sue but it works in the story. When he takes over we don't know what he will do and what destruction will happen. I think in this case it works in the story and makes it better.

[@nameless.thelivingdock5711]

Bro really just took a huge shit all over the male fan base, and started glazing the female fan base. That reminds me of Uncle Ruckus in a way 😂😂😂.

[@zacharybosley1935]

???

[@nameless.thelivingdock5711]

@@zacharybosley1935?

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@nameless.thelivingdock5711 what male fanbase was he shitting on?

[@spaghetto9836]

a) The male fanbase of what?? b) So he hates the fact he's a man, bc he's calling out an evident bias in media critics?

[@nameless.thelivingdock5711]

​@@zacharybosley1935 14:48 the difference between male and female dominated Fandom.

[@CrazyWeridoRH]

I guess Sukuna opens the question of, does it count as a Mary/Gary S(t)ue if they're the villain?

[@sungjin-woo3894]

Imo people only complain about mary sue’s is whenever it’s done to push this boss girl that is independent and usually bad writers do this by making the male characters brain dead so the female mc can shine more. I wouldn’t have an issue with a female sung jin woo equivalent because I KNOW that there is really no underlying bullshit or some agenda trying to be pushed, it’s just nuts to butts action with a hot woman as a protag. Also some people might complain that a character is a mary sue merely by the association they have with the film makers that are known to try to push agendas in movies, so even if the character isnt a mary sue, you cant help but groan after seeing the 5th girl boss protag that is badly written.

[@teloprmepeterson1812]

i can agree with rimuru and sung jin wooo abit with sukuna but not ichigo bro gets atually bullied most of his show

[@jamesrichardsoniii4801]

Usually, when I think of what is considered a Gary Stu, I think of... pretty much most isekai protagonists nowadays. Kirito from SAO being a good example. Although, there are other cases that I've heard of that border on absurd, making Kirito seem tame by comparison.

[@Late_night_cook]

People call Sukana the king of conveniences

[@kap1618]

The issue with the Sue debate is that Gary Stu have more ardent defenders than their female counterparts. We all know of the Batgod meme, yet no one talks about it in any serious media criticism.

[@hecticfunentertainment9373]

i think there is more reasons for the disparities between 2

[@poorsocialskills]

So if I remember correctly, rimuru is neither female nor male. It's been a very long time since I've watched the series (I stopped by s2 glowup) but I feel like i remember rimuru stating that slimes have no gender and rimurus design is more fem so like idk

[@sapientbirb7350]

True, but he was a man in his previous life, and there are quite a few times where the audience is reminded of that fact. Whether it be through fanservice scenes, him thinking back to his previous life, or a few brief moments of him wondering if becoming a slime has affected the way he thinks and behaves.

[@poorsocialskills]

@@sapientbirb7350 if I'ma be 100% real with u I forgot that tensura is an isekai 😅

[@sapientbirb7350]

@@poorsocialskills lol

[@IsabellaMathew]

Isn’t Anakin one of most hated characters too point of harassing a little boy play him too kill himself? Granted I don’t think Mary Sue isn’t helpful. Reason for Ray being marry Sue is lack of clear direction. Issue with hold series in general is that don’t have a clear direction.

[@xedusk]

As far as I’m aware, he did not kill himself. He was interviewed in March earlier this year. Although, the bullying did lead to him quitting acting altogether.

[@IsabellaMathew]

@@xedusk oh.

[@John-fk2ky]

Calling Anakin perfect is a sign of analytical incompetence. He repeatedly failed to be the perfect Jedi. He literally failed to do the right thing on a regular basis. He got his ass kicked in the second movie. He REALLY got his ass kicked in the third. What idiot thinks he’s perfect? He’s the exact opposite.

[@IsabellaMathew]

@@John-fk2ky I wasn’t calling him to marry Sue. It’s more like Charter was more hated than Ray.

[@xedusk]

@@John-fk2ky He did say that characters can start as Mary Sues and then change enough to lose that title over time. Maybe he's saying Anakin was just a Mary Sue in episode 1?

[@Mono_The_Archivist]

To be fair, Harry at least has some flaws he had to overcome. The rest I agree with, it's a problem with a lot anime.

[@BlackReshiram]

writing my beloved

[@sierrad.7654]

It’s so fun to read these comment to see which ones people are going to “um actually…” about 😂

[@meteorcat0730]

I mean, if I'm being honest then yes, both Mary Sues and Gary Stus are pretty annoying. And while you have a point about women in media being more often labelled as such...I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's a problem with female characters, mainly, or due to most "readers" having a problem with female characters. While I fully side with you in the fact that Sun Jin-woo is a Gary Stu...you stating that fact alone about him kinda irks me, because this feels like the perspective of someone who has basically speed-read the manga or only watched the anime variant of the story. I can't really blame you for this though, since the thing I have a problem with comes more from readers who consume a lot of manhua, manhwa and manga as their primary reading material. At the beginning of their stories, they weren't Gary Stus. This irk applies to multiple characters that have this particular problem, though - they didn't start out as Gary Stus/Mary Sues, but became so over time thanks to their writing. That fact alone is what ruined them as characters for me, and it really hurts to see characters that I once had hopes for, becoming clones of other MCs, essentially. It's the trope of them becoming Gary Stus, in a sense, that's the problem here. And while that probably shouldn't be inherently bad, the story pacing and lack of character development/setbacks is what ends up reliably being the Achilles Heel of most of the stories which have these characters. It sucks. And I wish it was done differently more often.

[@WeebGuru6]

Gary sue can be done very good but they don’t work well as main protagonist as a villain or mentor character they work far better ur not following and spending as much time with them as protagonists

[@WeebGuru6]

Imma add to the flaw part of definition it’s when those flaw are actively a problem for the character but the story doesnt recognized it and call it out for it and handles it appropriately case in point korra Charlie from hazbin stolas Steven universe has this problem a lot. Also Ichigo isn’t a gray sue because there were consequences he had to deal with his hollow side. Now the other examples u stated like sukuna he’s a gray sue I will agree but I think there’s an aspect of it ur forgetting they’re entertaining people will forgive a lot if that character entertaining case in point toji killed a child and he is lusted after by a majority of the fandom makima is a Mary sue done right she is very well written but I’ll say this I hate her but she is very well written and she’s a Mary sue

[@AnimaidanFrames]

Usually I’m a big fan of your videos but this one felt crazy redundant. I can tell you had good values in why you talked about the issue, but your arguments themselves are bad faith and annoying, particularly by the 8th time you brought up the big bad comment section. Almost to the level of “I depicted you as the soyjack” in how you’re framing your critics Most of this video is “I imagine” or “I think” when talking about whether men would see certain male characters as gary stu’s, but overall thats just all it is, you imagining it. I understand this video is covering the topic of the culture surrounding whether something is considered a mary sue, rather than the discussion of mary sues themselves, but if that’s the case, I think you didn’t have enough material to provide here. It would have been more engaging if you actually went more on depth in the articles or community reactions you’re alluding to

[@CarrionKnight]

I would agree with this, its not a very good discussion on the topic and while he made some good points its kinda like... why? he's like four years late to the discourse at this point.

[@AnimaidanFrames]

@@CarrionKnight I don’t really know if you can be late to something like this, as regardless of if it were only first acknowledged sometime ago the issue will still be relevant today But yeah the discussion was not good i agree

[@imfabulous3707]

HAlf of the guys you mentioned as Gary Stu are this way on purpose. Not invalidating your point but it would be stupid to hate them for this reason

[@Azureneedle]

Loved the accent.

[@jeremiahboyd2147]

Wait, what's a mary sues again?

[@sapientbirb7350]

In short, it's a character that isn't required to fit the story their in, but the story will be bent for the benefit of said character.

[@hawkbirdtree3660]

This video is going to go over so many people's heads.🤣

[@ianboswell]

The problem is people are blaming the wrong thing for bad writing. You're being bizarrely fixated on and trying to connect the dots when the problem isn't systemic or culturally tied to the things you blame. You just really want to blame feminism because you hate women and need an outlet for your blame. I'm sorry for you. I hope some day you can get the education or medication you need.

[@gtwarden7292]

that's like the literal opposite of what the video was saying

[@ScritRighter]

Grrr femoids

[@Rika-15]

Uh what

[@KittyBlackKitt]

i actually love perfect characters. it helps me with my self-esteem for some reason. why have i enjoyed captain marvel? because i rarely see a character who goes an arc like MC in there. there is something so cool about just watching super cool and strong characters. everyone says its boring, but for me this is a very rare experience.

[@evee31637]

It's just sexism

[@zacharybosley1935]

And if it's not just sexism, it's a very easy on ramp to sexist rhetoric

[@naomistarlight6178]

The main Gary Stu I always think of is Luke Skywalker, because there's nothing Rey does that he doesn't, and Rey has even more explanation for knowing what she knows (orphan doing her own ship salvaging business = why she can fly ships!!!) but whenever people bitch about the new Star Wars, it's always "Rey is a Mary Sue". Not Finn being uninteresting and the romance feeling even more forced (lol) than Ginny and Harry... Like there's a lot of Force Awakens trilogy critiques that ARE valid, but Rey being a Mary Sue is not one of them. She definitely has powers for as many reasons as Luke or Anakin do.

[@John-fk2ky]

I’m sorry, but you honestly sound kinda like you slept through the characters’ respective films. Luke: lives on farm, flies T-16, will NOT shut up about being a pilot. Barely survives his first dogfight and only manages to blow up the Death Star with his mentor’s supernatural help. Rey: scavenger with zero technical training who makes no indication she has even heard of a flight simulator. Flies a cargo freighter like it’s a stunt plane. Luke: hears about the Force in one movie and uses it with help. Spends most of the film getting beat up by everything dangerous and has to be rescued by others. Learns more about it in another film from Yoda and promptly gets his ass kicked by Darth Vader. Gets better with the Force and barely survives rescuing Han from Jabba. Manages to defeat Vader in a fight while almost falling to the Dark Side. Gets fried by the Emperor and has to be saved by Vader. Rey: somehow learned how to fight without any sign of a mentor (don’t give me that bullshit about her needing to learn because she’s on her own; that’s not how learning how to fight works). Wins every fight she’s in against Kylo save one. Rescues herself from the First Order. Beats Kylo Ren at the end of the first film. All while thinking the Force was a myth and somehow manages to use it with no training. Somehow manages to use a lightsaber despite it being VERY different from a staff. Has no real training in the second film yet fights off Snoke’s guards easily enough. Only has some issues with Snoke himself, who is promptly killed off. Consistently fights Kylo to a standstill in the last film then defeats the emperor all on her own (which doesn’t make a ton of sense because he said killing him would allow him to possess her). So please, tell me, how the heck is Luke a Gary Stu when he matches none of the criteria? How does Rey have better explanations for what she can do when almost everything she does violates established lore?

[@randomrey002]

First

[@insight1239]

First