Let's Talk About Secret Lair Bonus Cards

Magic having randomised rarity distributions, and Secret Lairs having randomised Hidden Cards is nothing new. But for some reason, people are angry about it.
I'm lost.
#mtg #secretlair #fallout

[@carlhannah1884]

It hurts the best thing about a secret lair in that you know what you are going to get. The difference between announcing what the bonus card could be before and after the sale completes is night and day. This card being revealed once the SL shipped doesn't affect sales. It just a cool easter egg some people got. Announcing it before as a chase, that's just to create FOMO sales and spin up the gacha machine. It's not the end of the world. It's certainly in response to SL sales (allegedly) tanking over the last 18 months. Disappointing more than angering or surprising.

[@failfurby]

I have nothing else to say, this is everything already.

[@KaladeshExpress]

This

[@BlueGriffin20]

Right and they broadcast it for an IP product they have to recoup their costs for. What bothers me is they use to have a static card. Princess bride had the command tower, stranger things had Hawkins lab, etc. It wasn’t a 1 in 3 (doubt it’s that balanced.) to get the “prize” bonus card that could make the cost better. They have been a bit more varied with the bonus cards recently, but yeah, it’s disappointing.

[@sambrown9475]

This indeed

[@vengerofthelight]

This, precisely.

[@Jammonstrald]

"is this predatory?" Yes. Yes the entire MtG product line is predatory.

[@underscore_5450]

While I get what you're saying Vince, I have to disagree. That bonus cards 90% of the time were either bulk from unsold Secret Lairs, random things that don't really matter, or a set card that was part of the Secret Lair but not announced. I have no problem with any of those because they are just bonus cards. No one was buying Secret Lairs (hopefully) just for a random and possibly valuable bonus card. They were just fun extras. This feels bad because these are all card themed around the Lair that aren't part of the Lair. People buying this SL specifically are doing it to get all the cards with Vault Boy on them and now they can't get all the cards that look like they should be in that SL by just buying the SL. It makes me worry about the direct to consumer, get exactly what you buy approach to SLs getting more and more randomized. How long until we're buying Secret Lair boosters that could have any 3 cards from a Lair with 18 possible cards ranging from bulk commons to first time foils? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a consumer. Just put all the "bonus" cards that are only for this SL in the fucking SL.

[@underscore_5450]

It would be fine if it was a Mana Vault with normal art. The issue is that it looks like it belongs in the SL. It has the art that people are buying the SL for but you only get a random chance at opening it, which isn't how SLs have worked in the past.

[@PleasantKenobi]

You are disagreeing, but sound like you are agreeing. You understand and acknowledge, that this isnt new, and people should not buy based on the chase card. Maybe your right in a way, I should be more critical of Wizard's transparency about how uncommon of a hit you and I know Vault will be.

[@girlhunter2102]

“Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get” - WOTC in a movie about Magic somewhere

[@homebrewed]

I thought only some SLs had the random loot box hidden cards while some had a known card? If I am wrong, I'm wrong. As someone who has all the extended arts sliver (Yes, even Sliver Hive) I get the FOMO as I have some a few wild purchases based on rumors to try to hit the Hive itself. Good video, but yeah very surprised at people not knowing they were a thing previous to Fallout.

[@movieguy4245]

Best way to do it, forget the mystery slot card, do you like the art?, are the cards in it make you break even financially or does it have other significance to you?, often times the best ones to get are the anime /Japanese art style since they have some amazing art and good resale value (depending on the cards)

[@thedragonslibrary]

Some of those full art slivers can be worth money. A lot of them are really old! Honestly, as someone who plays slivers I liked those a lot, although including plague sliver was really stupid...

[@Lismakingmovie]

I'm glad they're at least good secret cards, my last secret lair came with a 30¢ sliver that I have no use for and that barely related to the set i ordered.

[@adamxue6096]

In general more reprints = good It just kinda sucks that they know exactly that this will help the sales especially on less desirable SL products.

[@patrickwestlake]

It’s predatory to show the card without telling you the odds of getting it. Is it in every ten secret lairs? Will there only be 5? No one knows. They stink of desperation and bad decisions.

[@alexvalentim1418]

I was always against the secret card in Secret Lairs

[@sebastiangomezbotero7765]

Thank you señor pleasant you are very Kenobi

[@SamuraiMotoko]

Oh no, im not suddenly, i just stopped buying and walk away. This is what people want of magic, you can have it

[@bye1551]

I'm so tired of wizard just laughing in our faces. They acknowledge the secondary market, the evidence is so disgustingly abundant that only legalese could save them. How is this allowed??

[@CrackerSmith]

SOLD OUT SOLD OUT SOLD OUT!!! Nobody cares.

[@cylonsteve2511]

Predatory for whales is fine. Totally agree 👍

[@retro.7673]

Guess you could say this led to a real FALLOUT within the community.

[@TaskMaster5]

Might like to some RADical reactions!

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

no CAP

[@drugsdelaney2907]

Bye Alicia, Who Smiles at Death

[@nfortin24]

If they don't disclose the odds of the "bonus" cards then yes, it is a problem.. I also don't believe this can be called a "bonus" card... Its included in the announcement for the product so it is a PART of the product...

[@underscore_5450]

Exactly. That's my problem with it. It was very obviously designed alongside the rest of the cards in the Lair but was taken out because........reasons. It feels like the most "worth it" part of the Lair was taken out and made random to increase sales. Like imagine if the Praetor SL from years ago came with Jin, Vorinclex, Urabrask, Sheoldred, and a random chance to get Elesh Norn or Silver Myr as a bonus card. It just feels bad.

[@DaxRaider]

its also a problem if they tell you the odds if they say its 1/10 its still stupid gamble

[@hunterbowman98]

If I had to guess why people are upset is that normally in secret lairs you don't know what the bonus card can be until after the set shipped. But since they went to a f.o.m.o model they are forcing people to buy the secret lair if they want a chance at it.

[@spedcuber178]

It sucks so much that when I buy a whole secret lair because I want the cards that have that art style on them, I won't even get all the cards that have that art. Just put the same card in every "secret" slot, like the Lara Croft command tower 'croft manor'. It's not like you can buy the secret lair, see what you get, and decide to buy another of the secret lair to try and get the one you want (as bad as that would be in itself). I am so tired of them making things worse and worse with almost every SLD.

[@jorjor500]

Getting the dreaded random sliver while my buddy got a Liliana out of his bonus card is what made me stop buying SL drops tbh. I just buy the cheapest printing of cards for tournament play, and proxy all the art I want for casual events/commander

[@zlink88]

That's totally understandable, but as a sliver player, I loved the flood of cheap bling that flooded the market

[@jamesmoore1476]

@@zlink88 Same!

[@DerekScottBland]

I remember for the D&D Honor Among Thieves secret lair they didn't advertise the bonus card, but they started shipping immediately so people were still able to order while others were getting their sets. When it was revealed that Themberchaud (the fat dragon) was the bonus card, I know orders had to spike.

[@underscore_5450]

The difference there though is that the fat dragon was guaranteed to be the bonus card. Imagine if it was between the dragon and some basic lands with scenes from the movie? That would be shit.

[@stevepeter6619]

Imagine if those bonus Manavaults were only serialized with the serial no. printed in the door number spot. Kinda neat “extra” bonus rather than sticking it in a separate 3-card $150 secret lair.

[@robert8984]

Honestly that would be cool. But preferable in a world where the cheapest version of staples is not more than 10-20€ and then there are super high end versions for collectors.

[@tymenvanessen3119]

that is actually what was great about the Doctor Who commander decks, and boosters. if you just want the cardboard card to play with, you can buy the decks, and know exactly what you're buying, and you can get every single unique card by getting all four of them. or you could have a randomized chance with those collector boosters if you wanted to try for a extended version.

[@jedrzejkraszewski816]

Every card - until they released the Doctor Who Secret Lair with new legendaries from the most recent episodes. At least these Fallout ones are all reprints.

[@adamxue6096]

@@jedrzejkraszewski816 The Dr Who secret lair arguably made the whole dr who set, which was fantastic and great - way worse than it needed to be. They made the fitting commander for a doctor tribal deck a SL exclusive. It just sucks. So I said screw them and ran Niv Mizzet Reborn as commander instead, he finds me pretty much all doctor cards from the top 10 cards, which is about as good as I wanted anyways.

[@DarthTUK]

The issue is they switched to limited print instead of print to demand. So scalpers will snag these.

[@Aldrnari956]

Yeesh. This is pretty bad. Adding a gamble to Secret Lairs, when the entire point of SL was to directly buy specific cards from WotC, is scummy.

[@PleasantKenobi]

It's not adding anything. They had randomised stuff before. Listen to the fucking video, I beg you.

[@deanofcool]

I might be incorrect here, but I believe all previous bonus cards have been shown after they have already shipped. So you get what you get. But this being leaked before they are on sale, would absolutely add to fomo. I think it’s reasonable to be a little annoyed by this. If I’m wrong, then fair enough. But if I’m right, then it’s 100% predatory.

[@BlueGriffin20]

That is correct. Until recently They haven’t mentioned what the bonus card was before and it was always just one card. Not a 1 in 3 chance.

[@MosesSuppose]

I mean, this is just me personally, but I am in recovery for a gambling addiction, and so Secret Lairs were previously a “safe” product for me to splurge on when I felt like doing so. Yes there were randomized bonus cards for some, but it wasn’t the main selling point, and its not like I ever ordered a secret lair FOR the chance at a relentless rats or shadow born apostate or whatever. I will be staying far, far away from this secret lair, and any other secret lairs where they put a chase card as a random bonus

[@PleasantKenobi]

I dont knownif you listened to the video; but this isnt new. Chase desirable including serialised cards have been in SLs before.

[@mawillix2018]

@PleasantKenobi please show me a previous secret lair where they announced ahead of time what you were playing for when you made your bet.

[@ForeverDayGreen]

​@@PleasantKenobi the knowledge IS the difference. Going from "I buy this cause I like the cards I know I'm going to get" to "I buy this because there is a chance I might get card x" is a huge difference. Previously most (if not all) SL purchasers weren't gambling cause they couldn't realistically expect to pull something valuable randomly. This is no longer true for a SL that had it's potential bonus card spoiled.

[@PleasantKenobi]

I just can't get behind the moment we have transparency about the randomised element that it's somehow hugely problematic; especially in a game that is built around this idea fundamentally. It's a nothing burger.

[@AnonYmous-mc5zx]

@@PleasantKenobi I'm confused by the logic you're using. You don't find the product to be "more predatory" than it was, therefore it's all OK?

[@pe-ka1844]

yeah, when the "bonus" card has the same deliberately commissioned artstyle as the rest of the cards, it's as much of a bonus as taking a patty out of a burger and then adding it back as an extra topping. yes, I did use a food analogy, deal

[@NeverDauntedRadioNetwork]

Probably should've waited until we had the price, because the difference that you're looking for is if its a truly bonus card, and the 29.99/39.99 price still applies. But if they sell this lottery ticket for $70 and above, knowing that the guaranteed slots contain worthless cards, then yeah, it's a problem. This product should be avoided at all costs, same as Magic 30.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Oh don't worry, if they launch at a premium price, I will have ALOT to say. But either way, good point. I hope they dont jack the price.

[@styfen]

I already got mine, lovely proxies.

[@kingofredlions8729]

3:14 biggest problem with it this time is that they have also announced these are not print to demand

[@unything2696]

Our boy Vince also got a reverse treatment. Looking like 30 at age 18 and now looking younger as he ages. While having a kid. Good for you! (My guess: Venting all that rage and calling out bullshit is healthy for you. Maybe less for your Environment, at least if people don't understand. Take care.)

[@PleasantKenobi]

This seems wildly nice, for a KZbin comment. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[@LizaPlz]

catch me dead before I own a single fallout card

[@deohere7647]

Sure do love how Wotc & hasbro keep pushing the gambling button in a collection driven game of skill marketed towards children.

[@ich3730]

I mean, thats been the point for over 25 years now. Gambling for good cards in randomized packs is as much part of MTG as the idea of building decks.

[@tylerknowles9175]

it not being a new practice definitely excuses fuck all and we should raise a stink literally ANY time this happens

[@cedarbobedar7223]

I mean from my perspective it's not like "wait what, why??" is more of an "ughhhhh stop squeezing us harder and harder you're already getting all the money" and yeah a general desire to see them do something welcoming to new players and rewarding for the playerbase, like selling set for a lower price once in a while - find a way to give the consumer a shred of extra value instead of focusing 100% on extracting value for the shareholders - at least from me it's not surprise at all - it's just exhaustion and I guess consumer burnout

[@royceflores23]

Vince, I do not know that what we are getting upset about here (what about the gamblers?!?!) is really the issue. I mean, we now have 3 incredibly high variance slots in booster packs that were shifted specifically to either huge bangers or worthless, and people just let it happen. What is more likely is that people get pre-fomo and need to shift their argument as to make it about something else entirely. It’s all for clicks my friend, clicks and vaults.

[@danielsniff6405]

Randomized elements being included in secret lairs is more scummy in my opinion. Atleast when mana vault is a chase rare in some pack, you're already buying into the randomness. Packs are lootboxes. Secret lairs are not lootboxes. They are a fixed product. Its really weird to add a randomizer element to a product that basically no one buys more than one copy of. I dont think it's wrong to complain about this now, I think its wrong that we didn't complain about it before.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Nope. The hidden card has always been an unknown; a gamble. You know its something, but not what. Why are we pretending its new?

[@danielsniff6405]

@PleasantKenobi yeah, it's always been random, and it's always been wrong, atleast in my opinion.

[@LordJaroh]

I think it is right to make noise about this, as it is only going to get worse if people "accept" it. I will ultimately be happy if Wizards/Hasbro goes bankrupt these days. Despite loving the game, and appreciating that they do create some neat cards and mechanics, ultimately, their bad is starting to out weight theor good, and they don't do anything that the community couldn't do either. They won't change until their customers reject them.

[@PleasantKenobi]

People have accepted it. For close to three years???

[@LordJaroh]

@PleasantKenobi True, many have. But there is always the case of "the straw" for many. We just need the one straw that affects the most people. Hopefully this is it (I doubt it).

[@AnonYmous-mc5zx]

Not sure what you mean by "up in arms about it now", I've been calling Secret Lairs predatory since they were first revealed.

[@oafkad]

I like it. Just gonna proxy this bad boy. Sucks for anyone that likes to buy the real cards though.

[@ClubbingSealCub]

joke's on you, I've been angry about secret lair since the start.

[@DraggaRyuu]

I actually never knew the bonus cards were like that. I barely knew there was one until I bought the first one. I still think this is scummy to so blatantly pull after making Secret Lairs limited. ...granted I still don't want these.

[@tthien93]

Not a defense of WOTC, but a TCG company adding/advertising randomized chase elements to another one of their products is just another Tuesday for me. Compared to their existing rap sheet of mass layoffs, magic 30, and Pinkertons, this is a drop in a bucket.

[@draftmagicagain1000]

Secret Lairs in general are predatory. So this… is just more that. 😂

[@Aigis31]

The big thing to me is the publicity they're having for it. They are announcing ahead of time what you could possibly get, whereas before it was an unknown surprise. This is clearly trying to drum up hype and sales for the product by drawing attention to a big lottery ticket item.

[@PleasantKenobi]

It is. Its also transparent and clear, so people don't feel like they missed out prior to this - as people did with the Seers and similar. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[@jarad9946]

makes set with outside mtg IP, makes sub par half baked cards from said IP within the set. proceeds to make a secret lair after the set has had time to sell with infinitely better cards and artworks from said IP, profit.

[@starblissed]

You're telling me people are mad that they put gambling in our gambling game?

[@yavorchernaev39]

So, in which bundle you can get the mana vault? 🤔

[@acuteaura]

Wizards just can't resist making every product converge towards collector boosters. Set and now Play Boosters, COMPLEAT Gift Bundles, box toppers on commander decks and now their other very premium product is also getting chase cards. ALL WILL BE ONE. I'm not upset, I'm tired. Honestly surprised it took this long from God Packs and BFZ masterpieces to now.

[@Shinius]

Kinda feels like this a frog in a pot of boiling water situation. If you look at it in a vacuum, it's gross as hell. But we're used to it, so eh.

[@mr.nakamura9088]

All of these vault boy treatments should have been part of the fallout collectors edition instead of a supplementary product. I wondered why there were so few Vault Boy arts in fallout and now we have the answer....they wanted ALL the money from fallout fans. Not gonna lie that mana vault is sweet though. Buy singles (or proxy) don't gamble folks.

[@PleasantKenobi]

So now you would rather all of these cards were randomly inserted into the £25 boosters???

[@mr.nakamura9088]

@@PleasantKenobi absolutely, depending on the drop rates they could be cheaper to pick up (in singles) than purchasing 3 separate secret lairs. Notable exception here was Surge Foil versions of the cards which were truly scarce.

[@MangaDungeon]

I can only speak for me but part of the reason I'm not thrilled is that I think now a days with the powerlevles of everything being pushed to the moon, pack openings tend to be a little feast or famine its ether you open a good card or you open a penny rare there arnt really any okish cards anymore, no "hey that's an 8 dollar land" or whatever its all 30 bucks or nothing and its a feel bad especially when all the products coming out and wizards selling directly and having damage done to LGS kinda kills the aspect of trading your cards around. Like i cant speak for everyone but the local singles market is kinda dead and people don't really have trade binders so if you don't go to SCG or Card Kingdom or whatever.... your paying 50 bucks for that card, no wheeling and dealing junk to other EDH players or nitch commander players to work up to the big guns and all that is to say... this is all incedental, but now it feels like WOTC is actively taking advantage of that and telling us that magic is a Sheoldred or Junk game.

[@matthewoverton9034]

Love your vids Vince! While i'm pro-proxy for casual games of any format, I also work at an LGS. It's against Wizards policy to allow proxies in store events where the event is for profit. Which means even something as simple as a booster pack for entry which is what we do, means we are not allowed to allow proxies, which means we need to enforce no proxy policies. Which means access through reprints even for casual play is so important for LGSs so thrive. "The use of playtest cards and proxy cards is allowed within WPN Retail Stores only for non-commercial use in unsanctioned events"

[@SaphNeedsCoffee]

The issue I really have is they created this FOMO bullshit and did it as a way to "ensure they ship on time and are in quality" And they fucked Both of those up still. We went from Secret Lairs from being -Print to demand ONE day sales -Print to demand week long sale -Print to demand MONTH(s) long -Limit copies (bots sold out in 5 mins or less) I wish they just went back to Print to demand ONE day sale. But meh...A lot of things have pushed me away from buying in general and it feels the game is no longer for me.

[@alexgosan5707]

I feel like they keep pushing it with every set. Last set we got value boosters. This set bundles have less boosters in them. Secret lairs are also boosters now. How will this look in 5 or 10 years? Draft collector boosters? Boosters only have 5 cards?

[@kylegonewild]

Yeah, of the 4 SLs (Ito, Shinkawa, Pride, and Post Malone for the jet medallion lol) I actually bought I went into them not expecting anything more than that. I picked up both an English and Japanese version of Shinkawa and Ito's SLs because I wanted a set to play and a set to keep pristine and eventually put in a display. I don't remember which it came in but getting that really cool full art Ornithopter was a sweet experience, the Slivers not so much. Spoiling the "secret" in "secret lair" is a poor move for the way the products are viewed in my opinion.

[@GraffixGod]

I'm not a fan of the "limited run" decision 99% because of the bots/scalpers. The other 1% is because I have to make a conscious decision beforehand if I want to bother fighting the aforementioned bots ON RELEASE DAY . I enjoyed print to order runs because it also had the bonus of allowing me to weight financial decisions as well, rather than scrambling to ensure I "get in early". I could just chill and purchase at my leisure, knowing it would ship... eventually.

[@fehlbrandschwele]

It IS something new BECAUSE fallout is a relatively small SUBSET that preys on collectors who want to complete such a subset. And revealing this information AFTER most of the subset has been sold is imho one of the MOST PREDATORY things they have done so far.

[@Keksoe666]

So....now I feel scammed. Not by wizards, but by the people I bought the Women's Day drop with. I never even HEARD of that slot... oO

[@anthonydelfino6171]

The thing about the "bonus" cards is they're starting to see if they can take a card that's part of the cycle and making it the bonus. The "You are S.P.E.C.I.A.L." secret lair is the example I'm seeing here where the announced cards were initially just 6 cards, missing the card for A. I saw many players defending this as "well A is the bonus card!" which is just dumb. I compared it to what if the Eldraine Wonderland only had snow covered plains, swamp. mountain, and forest and the snow covered island was your bonus? Now that you've shown that Anger was announced as the A card, I have to wonder if that push back made it back to Wizards and they decided that maybe A should have been part of the core product.

[@Dlark17]

I've been incredibly outspoken about WotC/Hasbro's exploitation and general shittiness for a while now, but I have to say: this one I don't get. Like, how is this worse than the 1 of 1 Ring, that even brought in non-players to the gamble? SLs are shitty for their exploitation of FOMO to begin with, so I won't defend them, but I just don't see how this is the worst thing Magic's done recently.

[@weggles]

I don't think it is predatory, but I do think it sucks. I've always found the "bonus card lottery" aspect of secret lairs yucky, and this feels especially crummy. ... but the bonus cards have always sucked. I've bought lairs anticipating a cool bonus card and left disappointed. I've skipped on lairs that wound up coming with a rad bonus card that would've tipped the scales towards buying for me. The last thing buying 4 cards for $50 needs is.... more bad feels.

[@mbogs5814]

My only issue with it is the fact that you can not get the full set of a secret lair with how they did this. Every other secret lair theme you get all the styles. Then you can get a bonus that isn't really part of the theme of those cards, you get an alternate art of one of the cards, or a predetermined bonus card. This is the first one where you have to buy the other styles from a secondary market or gamble trying to get the full themed set.

[@dj66800]

I actually never knew about the hidden cards until now. I think what's caused this is, with Fallout being SO popular, a lot more people were actually looking at the secret lairs this time compared to prior in or out of universe Secret Lairs. As far as I remember Hidden Cards were not something I heard about when Secret Lairs were brand, BRAND new and people were bitching. So it's something they added later, and it's sort of gone under the radar because like... I don't care enough about the bloody cereal box lairs or baseball card lairs to buy the actual lair, I'll just buy a single if I care enough about one card.

[@B_a_h]

You're right that it's not a new idea, but adding pre-announced chase cards is a slightly more predatory execution than before. Is it bad enough to be outraged over? Probably not. But part of the consequence of continually monetizing your players' goodwill to increase profits is the loss of leeway. I just don't trust them. What are the odds for getting the vault? Why not do 3 bonuses relatively equal in value instead of an uncommon and a land? Other SLs had flavored bonus cards guaranteed (lab, lucille) and a list style system for cards with unrelated art/theme so why change it for fallout? At this point i imagine we'll get a one ring style SL event in the future where a special 1 of 1 is included in a secret lair. And I bet that one will be made to order.

[@tftd6471]

They should disclose the odds

[@deejayf69]

While it doesn't really matter to have access to the real cards in Commander, it always bums me out when I can't have the them because they cost 100€+. I'm not anti proxy, but it'd be nice to live in a world where we could get them for cheaper. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking, though.

[@WizardLogic]

Reprints are reprints, use the cheapest version of these powerful cards. Proxy these cards, most competitive players would rather actually play competitively, then listen to you moan and gripe about the cost of these cards for the 1000th time as you all drool over the decks they are playing. Mix the best of both worlds and commission local or fandom artists to create special and personalized art of these cards just for you and your decks. Begging on my hands and knees that all these Ahab's put away their hats and let the whales be, instead focusing their efforts on actually going to LGS's again and actually playing magic again.

[@nosrin1988]

I'm glad I don't care anymore. the first and last secret lair I have ever bought and will ever bought, was the Sheldon Secret Lair. May he Rest in Peace. but I refuse to buy any others on the primary market. if I really want the card, tcgplayer exists.

[@shiranui498]

This may set a dangerous precedent where products are being sold whereby you don't know the exact contents of what you're paying for. Yeah, we have booster packs which is an element of the game since it's inception but is it far fetch to think that one day Commander precons will have a randomised slot in the 99 with a chance of a Mana Crypt? I know it's hyperbole but is it really though?

[@andrewcullen2527]

I think my issue with this "secret bonus card" system, is the now limited offer of Secret Lair, meaning these are even more limited then normal. The stained glass walkers came with ANY Secret lair, and since more people could get them they never were an issue if you wanted one. These are now limited to a specific SL that sold out quickly...almost making them serialized in rarity, that is an issue in my eyes

[@khub5660]

The amount of mental gymnastics you have to partake in to blame a company for some random person's personal problems is insane. If someone has a gambling problem, that's a personal accountability issue. WoTC can't win in the eyes of the community, because someone somewhere will always find something to bitch about and it'll get amplified in the echo chamber that is the MTG community. At what point does the community put their money where their mouth is and stop buying product both in the primary and secondary markets? I don't think it ever will happen because no one wants to admit that they can't do anything past virtue signaling.

[@mysteriousnova600]

The way they handle this stuff has convinced me to stop buying minus singles. If it’s too expensive I proxy or play online. Not angry just disappointed, since I love fallout and would have bought these.

[@EpicWin1337]

30th edition secret lair had a randomized 1 in 3 chance of a foil card which vastly changed the value of chrome mox or necropotence. This doesn't seem dramatically different from that besides the odds of pulling the vault being unknown, which is shitty.

[@Icemaynee]

Blows my mind people complain about FOMO from gambling for cosmetic stuff. Not everything is meant for everyone.

[@pbg2025]

If wizards had just let people enjoy getting them the marketing would have absolutely been a home run but showing it off ahead of time just yells "please buy this!" I just wish the bonus cards you could get other than the vault were actually desirable. Who the fuck wants a codex shredder or a wastes? The wastes at least makes sense.

[@traviswaldrop3793]

I don't like the gamble in secret lairs I believe the bonus card should always be revealed. If I wanted to Gamble I'd be packs. Also I think mana vault could have Def been in a SL with a couple of other cards we recently had a first sliver lair and it was very expensive at the time

[@Mwarrior1991]

it's always been gambling, that's always been bad. people who ask, "why are we just now mad about this?", are just used to the boiling temperature that is the pot wotc has been slow cooking us in. this game is built upon gambling practices and that is bad and it is fine that people are outraged about it, no matter how long the bad practices have been occurring.

[@DaveyDAKFAE]

My reaction when you said one of the secret cards was mana vault was excitement. They've too often made the secret cards junk. Now I just want them to build a box that doesn't bend secret cards (even nonfoil ones) before they get to you

[@titania7768]

I doubt this will sell out instantly or even within the first week or so. They know how popular UB products are and they’ve said they are using data to estimate the print run. I imagine these will have a varying healthy supply by secret lair standards.

[@redblackdg]

Talks crud about commander when Thunder Junction is basically a Commander set with the amount of Legendary Creatures with effects that do nothing with the majority of the set

[@R3DM4G3]

The FOMO... of missing out... tell me, what do you think the MO in that acronym means? xD /s

[@MrDualityGaming]

We went full circle, they wanted to milk more money by selling singles as well as packs and when not enough people were tricked into buying overpriced singles they came all the way back to selling them as part predetermined packs, soon it will just be a booster with crappy alt art cards from everywhere

[@homebrewed]

Would you be up in arms if it was something like Sheoldred, the Apocalypse - a very needed standard playable staple?

[@esrohm6460]

doesn't it make sense that fallout of all products gets stacks. it just feels right with the setting of apocalypse to blow up lands and make everyone feel like they actually are in an apocalypse and have to play with the last remaining trading cards as form of entertainment before they go back out to get search through toxic acid seas for 9 legged fish

[@chuzzle9592]

There's people trying to sell mana vault for 2000-5000$ rn, even saw 1 that was buy it now for 10000

[@toasti1]

I didn’t even know there was a bonus cards in secret lairs until this I bought Sheldon’s spell book not even knowing. But it’s a bonus! don’t buy them just for the bonus it’s just that a bonus not part of the set

[@DevStarkiller]

Legend has it, if you make a video about MTG and say "gambling" ten times, it summons The Pinkertons.

[@w1-em4nq]

i'll wait till the official Alpha set reprint. Calling it now, it will happen, greed is too strong. it's been over 30 years and there's not enough of the power 9 out there.

[@muhdafiq3329]

"unplayable shit like random sliver" well you obviously have not seen and played against my all secret lair slivers deck 😤😤😤😤

[@vaffanculoutube]

i don't get why people are saying that this is gambling. magic was gambling from the start.

[@All_that_is_Magic]

Its all about the chase of that one card. Thats not what secret lair was about at first. Still gonna open this bundle myself soon, lets hope for a Vault. Soon on my channel.

[@masongrae5010]

It’s no longer a secret cool bonus card it’s now a glamorized gambling incentive that’s why people are mad about it

[@nickd6303]

It's possibly rigged that mana vault is most likely to be in the $300 foil bundles.

[@shanegrant9576]

I loved the bonus card that was added to the princess bride(command tower) I think a common staple with great art is probably the best way to do it.

[@xisackx]

If someone were to get the full fallout bundle, which has the 3 sets, would their order contain 1 bonus card total or a total of 3 bonus cards, one for each set?

[@jameswhite3043]

Keep talking up Cowboy Junction, Vince. Maybe people will come to like it. 😅

[@ISEESPACEMONKEYS00]

I’m kinda pissed. I just want to buy one. I guess I’ll proxy it now.