The Elephant In The Room - Sol Ring

One of the lesser parts of the discourse surrounding the bans this week was that Sol Ring dodged the bullet, and reigns supreme. And honestly, I am ok with that. Let's talk about why.
The full bans video
• Absolutely Bonkers Com...
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#mtg #commander #edh

[@andrewroy9263]

Instead of commander bannings, I think they should just limit these cards to 1.

[@davidgoulding1386]

;)

[@thatguyintherain3168]

Ok, Mr. Funny

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

"So I tried to make a joke that will make me feel validation, even though I didn't actually engage in the discourse."

[@icreateimage7908]

Get out of here Pioneer/Modern/standard player. Hehe

[@fasterbuilder11]

I agree

[@oamto]

I just want a coherent vision one way or the other. Either it's a wide open format primarily governed by rule 0 and we need extremely few or no bannings at all, or it's not. I also think the sentiment I often see of "you can't ban these cards they're too expensive" is unbelievably toxic for the game overall and commander tends to highlight this problem more than any other format.

[@yellowsaurus4895]

Well it's the first time they've done a ban in 5 years and it only hit 4 cards, one of which was almost guaranteed to get it anyway. I'd definitely say less than one ban per year counts as "extremely few."

[@impendio]

And then theres no data to tell what people wants or what is toxic or not, just first accounts and vibes, terrible for cedh and a failure of rule 0

[@themannyac7582]

I especially agree with the second point. If expensive cards were immune to bans then it would give Wizards even more incentive to not reprint expensive staples and allow other cards to get to that ridiculously inaccessible level.

[@sosukelele]

​@@impendioif it's a failure of rule zero then just rule zero them back in, that's literally what it's for.

[@oamto]

@@sosukelele to me that's also the crazy part of the "you can't ban sol ring it's in precons" argument, as if somebody showing up to an lgs on commander night with a precon is likely to get complained at when they play a sol ring. Nobody is registering precons for tournaments with harshly enforced ban lists or playing precons in cEDH.

[@Rynosaur94]

These people aren't arguing in good faith about Sol Ring. They're mad about their "investments" and are lashing out.

[@joelanderson5285]

Yah, Having some fast mana is OK it is when it is a lot of fast mana that the format suffers.

[@kuroginava8498]

Yeah agree i would be pissed too if a card with a value between 130-200 and more got banned but i wouldnt complain in such a way

[@YMS09D]

honestly, the 'collectors' ruin the game

[@tomw6056]

Many of us have been calling for Sol Ring to be banned for over a decade now. before the first commander decks were printed even. Back when Sol Ring was $20.

[@rungunninja1289]

One card being an exception that is cheap is not a bad thing. People just hyper focus on it because it’s the exception.

[@crazydeadperson]

I assumed geometric was used because of hyper geometric distribution. the formula you can use to increase the consistency of your deck or find out your chances of pulling a card in your opening hand

[@PMcDFPV]

Out of curiosity, I wonder what the feelings would have been if crypt had been errated to four or five life

[@BlackJustice2637]

I think it would see the exact same amount of play. In cedh, it still wouldn't matter, and lower level pods would still avoid it

[@luperci6836]

The only way it'd be fair is if it was 1 mana and generated 3 instead imo

[@ryanauble4228]

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that 3 of these cards were incredibly expensive, and you know that the members of the RC sold out of any they had before making this decision. Not to mention the ramifications this that on consumer confidence with special reprints that wotc does in the future.

[@Kasgaatvaaknaarbuiten]

Sol ring, that is in all precons?

[@Chinahat242]

I don't know if I'm an exception to the rule but I'm going to sincerely miss being able to build decks with crypt and lotus. Nothing elevated the garbage decks I build to casual playability levels better than a couple cards that were ubiquitously "good."

[@Pennywise-nx4jz]

Sol ring is put in every single precon and its affordable to the point where if its not in your deck thats kinda on you

[@Dekaar]

the thing about Sol Ring... Yes it is absolutely strong and gamewarping if you draw it early and in combination... however unlike the banned cards (bar Nadu), it is absolutely accessible and everyone can have it. Can't have that with the 100 Bucks + cards that have the same or HIGHER power level. I like losing against something that I can pull off too. Ramp me to infinity with turn 1 sol + arcane so that I can early control the game .... however I don't like losing to a 101 card deck - 99, Commander and Credit card

[@lambdalandis]

Sol Ring is the original sin of Commander. The mistake that has only been doubled down upon pre-con after pre-con. Banning it has always been the right choice, but each time it’s reprinted, it becomes more and more embarrassing to ban. Eventually people just keep doubling down because they can’t stomach admitting it was all a mistake.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

A card that would be overpowered at one dollar is still overpowered at ten, a hundred, or a thousand. If a card was ever tolerated because it doesn't 'show up that often' meaning expensive, but would be nonsense in every in-colour deck, it is arguably MORE of a problem than it would be if it was a dollar because that expressly endorses pay-to-win as a balance mechanism.

[@BLKCLVR]

I think that Sol Ring makes for bad game states, but its current availability actually makes for good game health. The high of turn 1 Sol Ring is kind of a huge draw to the format, and getting to do it is one thing that keeps new players coming. I'm not sure if I want it banned or not, but I'm not actually terribly fond of it as a card.

[@TenguTalks]

My first thought was "those cards fall under 'Pay2Winlul' while everyone and their family has a Sol Ring." Access issue, not balance per se.

[@yhuyyh]

The RC has explicitly said that expense of the card is not a factor in bannings

[@tastyrick]

​@@yhuyyhI can say my rear is made of coldcuts, but that doesn't make me a turkey sandwich.

[@aaronsilva2693]

Call me crazy I believe Jeweled Lotus should be the commander staple mana rock Think of it. 1. Its sole use is to cast your commander. 2. You have to sac it after you use so it’s not sticking around in the early game taunting your opponents 3. You’re mana positive for the turn, not every turn it sticks around. 4. If it’s drawn late game it might either be a dead card or a way to avoid some command tax. If much rather have sol ring banned in place of JL If jeweled lotus was in every pre con moving forward instead of sol ring, I would bet the discussion around JL wouldn’t be as talked about as Sol ring.

[@shrouded8797]

I really feel like cEDH being separated would be great. I mean, who buys cards worth hundreds of dollars only for casual games? Additionally, isn't explosive and quick games one of the main features of cEDH? I really don't think Crypt, Dockside, or Lotus are all that bad for cEDH.

[@erik556]

Yes. this was a huge FU to cedh. need separate rc now.

[@TheOmegaBear09]

While I agree for Crypt and Lotus, I do think Dockside is unhealthy for cEDH. I think there's a discussion to be had there, but given the way people reacted to the idea of cEDH being split makes it very difficult to make real, even though I agree that it's a good idea...

[@d43m0n412]

cEDH is more of a mindset then a different version of EDH... its just playing the best decks you can within the limitations of the banlist... much like all the other versions of mtg (modern, standard, legacy, and pioneer) idk why everyone thinks it should have a separate banlist or anything of the sort... it is literally just playing the best cards available to the player using the ban list as a hard rule instead of a suggestion... and the mentality is just play to win the game... yes the games tended to be faster because you were playing with every single viable bit of fast mana but honestly? with dockside and mana vault and jeweled lotus out of the format cEDH will slow down to be more about value engines like rhystic study and mystic remora...

[@Carboncopier]

I think the prevailing wisdom is that this would just result in another cEDH being created because people would still want to play edh at the highest level which means the new super competitive EDH format just leads to fracturing the player base.

[@TheCallumhutchy]

cEDH becoming it's own format doesn't remove it from casual. There will always be a competitive level in any format, it will just form around the new ban list.

[@mitrimind1027]

Think of it as having a second sol ring, we are just limiting sol ring to 1. Also having a pay to win extra sol ring pisses people off whenever you play against people that aren't playing it, it's much healthier for playing against random people having crypt banned.

[@brandonguffey5959]

I had joined a new pod once, and even though I wasn't playing top meta powerful cards I just smeared the table over and over again with good fundamental deckbuilding skills but also one other trick. As counterintuitive as it sounds, the way to win a game of commander is to ignore politics and make optimal plays. Cards like dockside, mana crypt and lotus exemplify this best. Who cares if three people dogpile on you if you are so far ahead you can handle three people, or already combo off?

[@Darkaces1289]

I'm in a similar boat. Too many players want their decks to do 30 things, but as soon as you use basic magic strategy, they call you a spike and too competitive. There shouldn't be 3+ hour games when the objective is to knock a win or lose and switch to a different deck. Hell, beating high power level decks with $50 worth of cards always seem to tilt hyper casual players for some reason.

[@kevinwestermann1001]

If you politic AND make optimal plays, you will always be even better.

[@impendio]

Just play cedh, is like that but much better and everyone is pro-proxies…

[@brandonguffey5959]

@@kevinwestermann1001 politicking just distracts you from playing well. All that time and brain power convincing people not to see you as a threat is better spent just winning the game.

[@WillisPtheone]

@@Darkaces1289 The objective for casual play is PLAYING the game not WINNING the game. These are 2 different mindsets and 2 different groups of people. If you sit at a pod that has the mindset of one while you have the mindset of the other you are the problem. This is an example of Pub stomping a universally hated behavior. Bring a low level deck to a CEDH game would be just as bad. Play with people that share your mindset otherwise expect to be avoided.

[@nathanscott3339]

I think they need to be consistent. Not banning Sol Ring with an excuse of it being iconic is silly. Like, either you want to cut down like all the fast mana to prevent fast starts or you don't. Reducing the good fast mana doesn't really slow the game down so much as create more variance when one person in the pod lucks into an explosive opening and others don't instead of everyone hoping to pull into an explosive start early if their deck is built for it. This having no warning as well shakes faith in the game and in being willing to buy fancy or expensive cards. I am seriously considering selling every card over a certain amount and either replacing them with proxies or going without them entirely because between WotC reprints and the RC banning things out of the blue, I do not want the value of my collection to tank or for me to spend a bunch of money on a fancy card only to be unable to play with it.

[@LunarWingCloud]

While Sol Ring is over the course of a game likely better than Crypt (despite costing mana), like you said; Sol Ring just doesn't care because it's *fucking Sol Ring* I hate to say it but the banlist is not just a power level discussion. There is an out of game or just vibes aspect to it. Sol Ring stays because it's in every precon and everyone gets it. It's much easier to ban a card that was only ever an expensive chase mythic in reprint sets that Wizards themselves aren't heavily advertising as a staple card for the format.

[@hououzashintai7421]

I think the core difference is, Sol Ring is useful in turn two. Mana crypt was viable on turn one, and meant you could get a three mana creature turn one. Sol Ring changes one mana of any colour into two colourless, so your turn one options are limited. At a competitive level, I can see that making a big difference, whereas at a casual level it shouldn’t matter as much, and you can always rule zero it back in.

[@MenaceLendil]

You can do the explosive start when you do sol ring into signet. However you're right that crypt allows for starts like "turn 1 rhystic study" while sol ring doesn't on it's own.

[@nexmeles8023]

Dockside, Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus were disruptive cards that were not readily available. Sol Ring is like.. 2-3$? Everyone can get one, it's accessible. Dockside was $85, Lotus was like $100. I honestly feel like if both these cards were printed properly... we wouldnt be having this conversation. If these cards were $10-$15 like they should have been, more accessible to everyone, it would have been less a problem. I think that the key thing beind some of the more powerful cards, either everyone has the ability to play with them, or theres a draw back. Recently, after these bans, ive seen people not only on Sol ring, but also Rhystic Study. Rhystic isnt nearly as game changing as any of those banned cards. Its powerful, but it delays, it causes politics. Dockside is 10+ mana when it lands, and Lotus sets up a game winning commander on turn 1 or 2. The interaction between these things is vastly different. I think it was good thing.

[@Pupalah]

I notice you hardly mentioned lotus. I think if ring stays, then lotus stays. It's so restrictive on what it can do and basically only usable once. I believe sol ring is a stronger card, and only more iconic because it's been around longer. If they want to fix it, wizards should make an announcement saying they are printing it in every commander precon going forward. Poor lotus is just cardboard now and can't be played anywhere.

[@akaikiseki9346]

Banning cards because WotC doesn't reprint enough is myu rational here. They can't use those cards as chase cards now, they'll have to reprint something else OR make ramp that is in-between Signets and Sol Ring. I can't fathom why they haven't already : if you don't want to reprint those cards in meaningful amount (therefor inciting the reaction of the RC : banning them which I fully support), make other "functionnal" reprints or other designs that bridge the gap.

[@VeggehGaming]

We could replace it with Smol Ring, 0 mana tap for 1 and put a charge counter on it. At 10 counters, transform into Swol Ring. Taps for some amount (4?) but doesn't untap in your next untap step.

[@Tempest_Murder]

I don't enjoy commander while wearing underwear, therefore they should ban underwear.

[@otakusatanist]

banning solring makes all precons illegal lol

[@thejunecooperative]

I NEED to see the video about being evil in Commander!

[@JB-sc3fr]

Ban cultivate etc... greens outa control.

[@zukiginagato2215]

Comparing Sol Ring with mana crypt is... just dumb. A 1 mana and sol ring start can at most get u a new mana rock and maybe some rly nice 1 mana gimmick. a 1 mana and a crypt... you can play something nice of 1 mana like an elf, annoying like a mystic remora, esper sentinel... and STILL play a mana rock that could even be a new sol ring to plat more shit! You can straight go for a 3 cost for a fair kodama's reach 'cause you started with 'only' 1 forest and crypt and done, solved mana problem...

[@557deadpool]

Because Sol Ring isn't a problem.

[@acciaio]

I’m guessing they say “geometrically” as in “geometric series”. Math. Basically means that it wouldn’t be a subtraction from the number of explosive starts, it would reduce them by a factor

[@d43m0n412]

i almost feel like they meant to say "symmetrically" vs "geometrically" just feels weird to say it that way

[@nileboy5055]

@@d43m0n412 thats not what symmetrically means

[@ryanstudham640]

"We aren’t trying to eliminate all explosive starts-it happening every once in a while is exciting-and removing the other three cards geometrically reduces the number of hands capable of substantial above-curve mana generation in the first few turns.” Toby Elliot said "geometrically" as an accurate numerical superlative. A lesser author would have written "exponentially" without any care for the fact that it means something very specific in math.

[@m1gr3nA]

they meant it in context of probability theory. i guess they did not want to show actual numbers and generalized it buuuut... i dont know, i would prefer actual ballpark number. weird for vince to not realize that since even mtgbot in each channel streaming mtg provides simple hypergeometric distriburion calculator for calculating card drawing probabilities. :/

[@chapter_129]

Y'know, the hypergeometric calculator we all use to determine how many lands to run? Geometric indeed is a math term.

[@dyne313]

I find it hilarious that Jeweled Lotus basicaly has no home.

[@matthewrose8002]

What do you mean? I just converted my jeweled lotus to being a fancy treasure token. It has plenty of play left!

[@wobblycobbly3562]

There's like 1 or two dudes on reddit desperately telling everyone it sees fringe play in Legacy. I play Legacy regularly, no one is using a jeweled lotus with doubling cube 😂

[@Cthuski]

​@wobblycobbly3562 but but... that bosh video from two years ago!

[@Robert-vk7je]

Kitchen table commander?

[@mattmorales4320]

Here we go, oathbreaker, here we go!

[@Cereen0]

The "geometrically" adjective is a math analogy as in "geometric progression" meaning that the explosive start occurences are half/quartered (divided by number) in frequency because we have less cards that enable them. (sol ring and Mana crypt for example)

[@IssaUserName]

Ok there's an explanation I finally understood. Thank you

[@ahall9839]

That's incredibly stupid. I'm guessing it's one of those words that people use to feel smarter than they actually are.

[@IssaUserName]

@@ahall9839 jargon has a tendency to make people feel stupid

[@hughmortyproductions8562]

@@ahall9839 It's high school level maths. If you think he's trying to "feel smarter" by using something everyone should have learnt in school, I think that says a lot more about you than him.

[@ahall9839]

@@hughmortyproductions8562 No, I've learned more math than you ever will. Saying "geometrically" to mean "divide by a number" is mind bogglingly dumb and pretentious. And not correct.

[@minabasejderha5972]

All this is fine, but how Thassa's Oracle continues to survive will never cease to amaze me.

[@koolaiddude7685894]

Because winning the game isnt the problem...... it is how fast you can get to that win.

[@bohab787]

​@@koolaiddude7685894so then why is coalition victory banned

[@KirillTheBeast]

@@koolaiddude7685894 Bruh... Thassa's wins the game from nowhere on turn three, and that's WITHOUT mana artifacts or any sort of mana ramping. The RC is completely under WOTC's control and that's it. They only rolled these bans (not including Nadu) because WOTC has already dumped the products containing those cards onto the secondary market and now they're going to print the next generation of cards doing the exact same thing. This is why there's zero consistency in the explanations for EDH bans: "We want players to win by casting big spells, so we're banning what's probably the least cheatable alternate win condition in Coalition Victory", "X creature card wins the game without outright ending it like literally any non-haste creature, so we're banning it", etc.

[@PsychicFrogBoi]

​@@koolaiddude7685894 coalition victory. Please explain

[@rosemarysamick9005]

ad naus is the problem, not thassas

[@ryanstudham640]

Toby Elliot said "geometrically" as an accurate numerical superlative. A lesser author would have written "exponentially" without any care for the fact that it means something very specific in math. "We aren’t trying to eliminate all explosive starts-it happening every once in a while is exciting-and removing the other three cards geometrically reduces the number of hands capable of substantial above-curve mana generation in the first few turns.”

[@IssaUserName]

I'm still not math minded enough to understand if this was a blunder on Toby's half or ignorance on my own.

[@rkajdi]

@@IssaUserName It's ignorance on yours. That's a common mathematical term, and it's being used properly. If people don't understand, then it's an indictment on their schooling or their retention of it.

[@AnonymousProffession]

I agree. "Defying the laws of physics" was a stretch though and probably why this line was scrutinized despite being accurately used.

[@Josh_Gage]

@@AnonymousProffessionthat phrase about sol ring was a pun on space because the sol ring is very spacy and he used the word geometrically earlier. The author is too smart for magic players unfortunately

[@melind82]

This exactly. Really they are just trying to get across the point that considering the high variance of a 100 card singleton format, removing additional pieces of explosive mana greatly reduces the reliability of an explosive start strategy

[@ricardocontreras8156]

Because sol ring is slotted for the next 1,000+ commander decks

[@anthonydelfino6171]

yup... and after those come out, it will be Janurary 2025 ;)

[@otakusatanist]

making sol ring would make all of the precons already released illegal, which would be a stupid move nobody likes

[@Joh1234jo]

I think the painbow deck is safe 😂

[@casimirgythe2181]

That's the issue I have with it. It's not that I think it overwhelmingly game breaking but simply that it is in 100% of decks. If a card thats not a land for instance (swamps in a black deck for) has a 100% or near 100% inclusion rate in every deck then it should be banned. Otherwise, you get situations where commander becomes 98 cards and a commander and also everyone has a Sol Ring.

[@meekumanu]

The RC is not Wizards, they have nothing to do with Sol Ring being in commander decks. Sol Ring being in every precon and almost every constructed deck is definitely part of the decision to never ban it, but it's not the only reason.

[@gregoryyeager4675]

Even with dockside and hullbreacher, my pirate deck was hot garbage. Someone across the table was more likely to wreck everybody by copying or reanimating them than I was to do anything broken with them, so I won't miss either of them. Agree about Sol Ring. We don't need to ban every card that does X in a 100-card singleton format, just whittling down the redundancy to cut into consistency, targeting the stuff that is inaccessible first, makes a lot of sense. Green, of course, can still go nuts.

[@weirdmusicmixmaster]

Sol ring being in all the precons is 100% part of not banning it, instant making every previous product automatically illegal is a bad call

[@freddiesimmons1394]

But these bans arent from wizards, are they?

[@zackerymorris8268]

I mean let's not mention Upgrades Unleashed releasing with 2 mossfire valleys in it. BTW I agree with your point just wanted to share that tidbit since it's probably been forgotten about

[@IIIHUSKIII]

That should never be a consideration when discussing what should be banned.

[@ejire4407]

Well Edgar Markov is banned in 1v1 so it's technically an illegal precon in 1v1.

[@thelegendarysolocard]

my 82 copies of sol ring agree with you, sadly no im not exaggerating i like precons.

[@DotDeck]

I just want consistency. You wanna ban fast mana? Ban it all. You want explosive starts in your format? Leave the rocks alone. Half measures are just frustrating and contradictory

[@goliathsteinbeisser3547]

Magic is about variance and controling variance. The resource system of the game is set up to throw variance at you and managing that is half the fun. The issue of course is what happens if a set of cards is so much more powerful than the rest that the amplitude of the variance becomes insurmountable, but that would be an even stronger argument for banning them.

[@chrs-wltrs]

This is part of why I proxy all my cards. Wizards doesn't deserve my money, and I want to engage with the game as a *game* not with the extra layer of gambling from opening packs and a precarious resale market.

[@ryuku2]

Let's be honest, it's the people with enough money to "invest" in a mana crypt that would be getting a mana crypt worth of cash. Proxying really exorbitantly priced cards cucks the cardboard finance bros and that's even better

[@danieldragotti2608]

Reject sol ring embrace sol Talisman

[@trentsims]

Real talk. I forgot that card existed. It is a good card, but is just such a terrible top deck in the late game that it pushes it out of contention a lot of the time.

[@MrZer093]

@@trentsimsthe amount of times I’ve discarded or scryed away Sol Ring in the late game is well, definitely happened more than twice. My point being that Talisman is strictly worse in the early game and is about the same in the late game

[@marcoottina654]

It would have been balanced 15 years ago, more or less when I started But then it was late Mirrodin or even later, so ... Sadly, it almost can't see play (unless for some very, narrow, few exceptions)

[@stonedphilosopher2185]

Ha! Buy them now before people catch on, and it spikes!

[@jakecarlson3709]

I run both sol talisman and mox tantalite in my obeka deck. They draw so much less heat than sol ring, even after they come online. I think people see them sitting around with time counters on them and kind of stop caring about them

[@Spooky-XVX]

I am more upset that the bans have ruined cEDH. Dockside made so many fringe decks playable at a level that they could actually take some top 4s. Jeweled lotus and crypt also enabled commanders like Krrik to be played. With these bans literally 10+ decks have fallen out of the meta, and the most powerful decks in the format are not effected at all. cEDH will literally be the same 5-6 decks for the next year or two and that suuuuuuuucks...

[@KingCtm]

"Why didn't they ban sol ring?" Because it's in every single pre con that's why

[@RoninWeeb_187]

Thank goodness I am not the one that thinks this. The main reason why they aren't banning Sol Ring is because it would render every single precon created over the years become illegal. Ngl, Magic players are forever unsatisfied with everything and constantly complain and are overly critical 24/7 lmao.

[@sam7559]

​@RoninWeeb_187 it's because I find the RC's stated reasons to be lacking and that they are cowards

[@ma9ical1]

Agree 100%

[@kuroginava8498]

Agree its also one of the few affordable powercards for new and budget players

[@slx]

Wotc is in control, they sold their stock cards and don't plan to print any more anytime soon. "Yes you can ban those. Sol RIng? Hah. Remember you work for me. Sol Ring stays."

[@clon1122]

"Geometrically" here refers to how removing multiple cards doesn't just reduce the number of explosive hands linearly (one-for-one), but instead reduces them at an exponential rate. Essentially, by banning multiple fast mana sources (Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, Dockside Extortionist), the number of potential hands that can generate large amounts of mana early on is reduced by multiplying the effect across multiple cards.

[@Morphling92]

It’s flat out wrong and gaslighting to be “ok with some fast mana”. Sure, the RC is right that taking out any card geometrically changes the odds, but this ban feels like them picking and choosing (read following wizards strict guidance) the winners. Sol ring, mana vault, lotus petal, and lions eye diamond are all restricted in vintage for being absurdly too powerful with mana. We know sol ring is the untouchable golden child because wizards told them no and it would be a nightmare to screw up all their precon decks. So does that mean they’ll ban the other fast mana to at least match vintage? Doubtful. The RC are an extension of wizards and there is 0 chance they’ll let a random group of 5 people actually decide health for the game when wizards needs to use mana vault as the next flagship to sell a future masters set.

[@johnvonkerman]

If the RC were an extension of WotC, these bans wouldn't have happened. If you think players are mad about this, how do you think wizards feels about losing 3 of their biggest chase cards?

[@Starfox2020]

The RC needs to sit down and decide if they're managing an actual format or a "creative commons" format alongside the community. Nadu was a signpost ban for nondeterministic combos. Jeweled, Crypt, and Dockside are format-managing bans, not signposts, and now we have all this confusion over what should be allowed at a table.

[@D-Boy22]

When cards are wildly rule 0'd out at most tables that doesn't play cEDH, it's usually a good sign that card warrent a ban imo.

[@Starfox2020]

@@D-Boy22 I mean, the Power 9 bans were the signposts for cards like Dockside/Jeweled/Crypt/Rhystic/Smothering/etc... Singularly powerful cards that are expensive and rare are not fun cards to play against, hence the signpost Power 9 bans.

[@slx]

Those cards are all cedh, normies that run those don't ruin games, they get slightly better odds. They should of just officiated cedh and change ban list to competitive list. Players need to know what they are getting into. Not say you can't use this because I say so, even when I am being inconsistent

[@gragsmash]

I still laugh about a mtg creator among us game and someone called a meeting "how does everyone feel about the uro ban?" Immediately airlocked

[@icreateimage7908]

As a mono red deck brewer, I feel specifically targeted by three of these bans. They better ban fing Rystic study and Smotheirng Thide F that free $#!@.

[@thejunecooperative]

That's a pretty fair point because monored has always been targeted due to the speed of those decks by the rules in Commander. Also I swear to god leaving a great card on the cutting room floor playing online or with proxies feels bad but dropping cards like that or the banned cards on the table with a group hug player and the "Women facing left" deck and someone's silly 4 card combo deck feels pretty bad if the card quality of the rest of the deck isn't equally or nearly as shitty as the rest of these decks!

[@icreateimage7908]

@thejunecooperative yeah, and nobody ever calls out the mono green player from ramping and dorking like a weed addiction. But, yeah, the mono green players are all laughing at our faces that they get to ramp fast. Because that's just what green does. Mf's are f-ing cheating. And they know it too.

[@marklepischak5777]

Rhystic Study is fine, it's the people playing against it that make it a problem. It should play out as a tax card, not an overpowered card draw engine. Pay the one!! Smothering Tithe should get the axe though.

[@PiApproximate]

​@@marklepischak5777 i agree, but only that tithe is too strong in multiplayer, but your wong about study, as someone that plays both i rather be getting an extra turn to 1/2 a turn of game play each round by my opponents not playing on curve then drawing 3 cards i can't even play all of the good ones, but if i have tithe out too then yes pay the 1

[@Lady_Luxury]

@@icreateimage7908 as the old adage goes, "cope, seethe, and mald"

[@sebm.4073]

Just ban the OG Duals and Gaeas Cradle and so for Commander as well. They are not accessible and priced way to high.

[@EwMatias]

Gaea's cradle is a broken card and if it were more accessible it would probably be banned already. The OG duals on the other hand are pretty powerful but not so much as to win you a game on their own.

[@dkznikolaj7013]

Nah. OG duals really doesn't give a banworthy advantage. Sure they are the best in slot, but like... Realistically the amount of degeneracy it enables on its own or with fetches is next to none - especially cause shock lands can do exactly the same for 2 life.

[@Lowaver]

This. All the cards that got banned were too expensive and almost mandatory in every deck. They were like 100+ or very near it. I've always been on the idea of Gaea's Cradle to be banned because of how hard it is to get the card and how expensive it is.

[@wobblefoot7607]

Sounds like a personal problem.

[@metaldudebuff92]

You're going down a bad rabbit hole with that logic. "Let's ban everything that's expensive and I can't buy". Let's ban every card that costs more than $100! How about cards that cost over $50. 20$ Maybe we ban it if it costs $5. Heck that guy over there only plays cards that are less than 50 cents. Ban it all! Stop acting like you see cradles in the wild every day. Play some land destruction...oh wait the casual group doesn't like that either.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

Let's be real here. If you go by EDHrec stats, Mana Crypt was in 11% of decks. Sol Ring is in 90% of decks. A ban of Sol Ring would be absolutely certain to anger FAR more players than the bans of the cards they banned yesterday. But also if they banned Sol Ring, that would instantly make all 750,000 commander decks that Wizards has printed over the past decade plus would instantly be illegal. This would mean there is no easy onramp into the format whereas right now only the Political Puppets and Mystic Intellect decks are currently not legal out of the box. But also let's be real here. Every time they ban something under any reason, then people will start to look at the next big thing down the line and justify it with "if X is banned, Y should be too" Though I would argue myself right now if we're going to try to put a stop on fast mana, while Sol Ring is a big one out there, when do we talk about cards like Three Visits? How far are people willing to go with this argument? It's arguable that a Three Visits on turn two will give you more ongoing benefit than a Dockside on turn two (it all depends on the meta and what people play)

[@scruffyryan]

Also...sol ring costs mana. People keep ignoring that basic fact. Stuff that got banned was either free and gave you 2+ mana, or had a greater than 2 mana return per 1 mana spent regularly.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

​@@scruffyryanthat also ignores the price, which is a reason to ban, if a card has to go in every deck to be viable, and that card costs 200 dollars, all that card does is serve as a way for people with money to gain an advantage, cost is absolutely something that must be taken into account for bans, if a card is rare and a must have, it's terrible game desighn, if a card is a must have and common enough everyone has it, it's not great card design, but it's at the very least fair

[@benvictim]

Dockside should have been banned the same time hullbreacher was banned.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@@calebbarnhouse496 pushing back just a little here... you didn't have to run Mana Crypt for your deck to be viable. Speaking for myself I've never included it in any deck and have won plenty of games. but also I do think they used to consider cost when banning cards, that's part of why the moxes were banned, but they've continued to leave the OG dual lands legal all this time later despite those costing FAR more than Mana Crypt did at the time of banning. So I'm convinced financial value isn't considered these days when banning cards.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@anthonydelfino6171 except it does need it to be a viable deck when it comes to high power settings, your deck will just be objectively worse if you don't take it over other cards, it's not viable to not have it, if 2 people of the same skill level play 2 identical decks except one trades a basic land for a manacrypt, the one playing with manacrypt will win almost every single time he draws manacrypt, next, the reason some hyper expensive cards can pass is they are just that, Hyper expensive, they are rare enough that they aren't nearly as big of an issue, particularly in the case of a dual land in that it's not as good as these cards, you could spend a fortune to make your deck a tiny bit better, but the amount of people that do that is low enough it's not a major issue, while these cards were expensive enough that they can be used while being strong enough that there effects mean you need it to keep up with people that do use it

[@Aquablossomx]

Yeah geometrically was the correct mathematical term, its in reference to geometric series.

[@MagesPown]

This is dumb, why ban it, everyone has one, it does not break the game and gets reprinted all the time, there issue with the cards banned recently is they are NOT reprinted or easily available, the power creep is real and they jumped the power of a deck significantly, it’s not pay to win but looks like it.

[@creativescreenname2750]

I think accessibility is a major factor as to why Sol ring remains

[@Doanay]

This is pretty much it. WOTC chose to reprint Sol Ring a bajillion times in a massive variety of variants. Crypt has been reprinted like 2-3 times as a chase mythic? Same with Dockside and Lotus. We're only a year out from Lotus having a reprint in Commander Masters and Mana Crypt being a HUGE variety reprint in the newest Ixlalan. Dockside was reprinted in the most recent Dbl Dbl Masters in mythic. By design made to be chase cards and have people part their cash for them either cracking packs or spending on the secondary market. If the RC spent a year debating this if Jim from SpikeFeeders is to be believed then both WOTC and the RC knowingly had set this into motion. With WOTC not really caring as long as money was spent buying packs and boxes. I see this as WOTC finally acknowledging the secondary market and trying to screw it over since they already got the consumer's money.

[@sam7559]

I don't think fast mana being accessible is a good reason for it being unbanned. Mana crypt, dockside, and lotus still would have the same impact on games if they were one penny commons.

[@MadMagicMaXXX]

Yup ​@@Doanay

[@ZeroKOR1]

@@sam7559 This tho is something for you and your play group to talk about and rule 0 it

[@Doofindork]

I feel like it's really stupid to want Sol Ring to be banned just because Mana Crypt is banned. Mana Crypt is so good partly because Sol Ring exists at the same time; Mana Crypt is better than Sol Ring, but the fact that you could play BOTH in the same turn and then have ramped 4 on turn 1 is just stupid broken. And if you get even more lucky, you still got all that mana to throw out any signets you might have. Best outcome of starting hand with Sol Ring is just Sol Ring + Signet. Mana Crypt is feelbad for the one reason that people don't have $100 to throw on a single card in their deck so they can start their turn with two Sol Rings. Going "well why is the other one not banned too? Just because I can't have two, no one should have any!" is some backwards mind gymnastics.

[@timblazer3411]

I agree with this. People seem to be ignoring the fact that Mana Crypt costs 0 mana, allowing you to have 3 mana on turn one with a colored mana from your land drop. For example: turn one Rhystic Study before your opponent has hit a single land drop makes Mana Crypt incredibly hard to interact with, and therefore frustrating. Sol Ring costing 1 eats your first turn if you don’t have another colorless spell to cast. Mana Crypt is also a +2 in mana at all times regardless of the turn it’s played.

[@maximillianhallett3055]

I think it’s important to remember that there are different groups mad about these bans. Collecters, Casuals, and cEDH-ers. Collectors can kick rocks imo. Casuals shouldn’t have been playing these cards in the first place. cEDH-ers will adjust to the new meta. My high power table already allows MLD via Rule 0, so these cards can come back in that way. But casuals won’t be able to slyly play these cards anymore, and I honestly think that’s where most of the bellyaching is coming from, after the collectors of course.

[@kuroginava8498]

Agree, some people like the feeling of having spent a lot of money to get the advantage over casual players a little bit to much.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@maximillianhallett3055 Yeah but that's like just your opinion man

[@Morrodin182]

Sure ... then again it can be Christmas in July. I mean the chance of having Sol Ring or Crypt in your opening hand is already a low percentage, having both in your hand is even lower. Will it happen? Sure. Will it happen often enough for it to be a problem? Not really. Also if they had banned Crypt several years ago then sure, their reasoning would be have made more sense. I honestly disagree with their decision on crypt. All in all though it is a decision I can live with it, even if I don't like it. Lotus on the other hand... they basically made this card not playable at all. If you then think about how it has been a chase rare even recently then there is a HUGE problem. Now don't get me wrong as far as rituals go, Lotus was the strongest of em as it is a 0 cost one without colour identity. However it is exactly that, a very powerful ritual. Not an easy re-usable mana rock. (and yes it being an artifact does make it recurrable BUT it only pays for your commander so recurring it isn't that over the top even) So for me personally: Nadu and Dockside 100% understandable and sane bans. Many Crypt an unneeded ban which I am against but I can live with. Jeweled Lotus is a ban which I intend on just ignoring as it makes 0 sense to me.

[@SuperShadowKinTwitch]

Turn 1 Sol Ring = 2 colorless mana. Turn 1 Mana Crypt = 2 colorless mana + 1 color mana. They are not the same. Only one of these will let you play Rhystic Study turn 1 as one example.

[@SuperShadowKinTwitch]

Even if you don't use the colorless mana from crypt. The fact that you can cast it and still use a 1 color spell makes it significantly better. Or even a 1 color 1 colorless spell.

[@DisgruntledCareBear]

So then you must be against 1 swamp ----> Dark Ritual, creating 3 floating black -----> spend 2 on arcane signet ------> spend last floating on sol ring ------> end on turn on rhystic turn 1. So by your own logic, we should also ban arcane signet and dark ritual cause they also get you turn on rhystic right? Or even if you replace arcane signet with any of the talismans that can tap for blue and ding you for one damage as well? What's funny is this is more mana being untapped on turn 2 than crypt and 1 land. But no one is in an uproar about this.

[@SuperShadowKinTwitch]

@@DisgruntledCareBear that's 3 card combo vs 1 card. It's less versatile as it requires a swamp, not any land, and mana vault can use the same combo to even greater lengths.

[@meekumanu]

@@DisgruntledCareBear You are comparing a combination of 5 cards in the same opening hand (MUCH MUCH less likely to hit in a mulligan) to a combo that is basically land -> crypt -> any strong 3 mana play. And you're using that combo as an excuse to defend Mana Crypt? Are you stupid or just intentionally facetious? This is exactly what the Rules Committee is talking about, btw. By reducing the number of high power fast mana cards in the format overall, all decks also become less likely to draw and hit fast mana combos on early turns. Signet and Talismans are not ahead of the mana curve, popping off with them on turn 1 just means you drew a great hand. Sol Ring is allowed to be the one exception, because at the end of the day, drawing a great hand and popping off on turn 1 is fun, so having one card in the format that does it is ok. It just shouldn't be happening every game.

[@tomw6056]

Sol Ring warps games more than Jeweled Lotus. Jeweled Lotus is basically a better Dark Ritual in EDH, much worse than Sol Ring. Jeweled Lotus is also a semi dead draw in the late game, while Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are still marginally useful.

[@paulowen3271]

its rule zeroed by wizards not to ban as its in all pre-cons

[@shanaeverowe9626]

RC is not part of WOTC. If it were determined to be a problem they would be fine to ban it. It's in the grey area, more so than smoothering tithe that at least costs 4 and is an enchantment.

[@paulowen3271]

@@shanaeverowe9626 your telling me the RC don't run things past WOTC? the announcements are on the WOTC website dude

[@ProphecyPhrase]

Well Painbow doesn't have Sol Ring but who here actually remembers, bought, or even played with that precon?

[@Mobius_ll]

So ban it and all precons moving forward won't. See how easy that was🤷‍♂️

[@taylorhewson8995]

Yeah but recent precons and also pre cons planned for like 2 years down the line are planned for solo ring so your kinda stuck ​@@Mobius_ll

[@robertdalin]

You can always rule zero add sol ring if you're in my pod. Heck might bring extras for the rest of the people in the pod.

[@dkznikolaj7013]

Everyone now plays 4 sol rings out of spite

[@Nocturne989]

You are the first person ive seen actually discuss the logistics of banning Sol Ring. Like it would literally make 99.9% if precons ever released illegal to play.

[@Itachi45481]

That would be funny

[@andrewsummit8314]

so many mtg content creators have missed this, "why not sol ring , wtf"..... dude the precons!!!!!

[@m1gr3nA]

we already had one of the first precons illegal and now we got another one. so there is a precedent. but i guess the issue is in future precons that are already designed and waiting to be printed.

[@Junkyardproduxtions]

Most precons I play are still illegal usually anyways. With duplicate of a nonbasic land usually or sometimes one of the banned cards. Granted one of those usually happening way more than the other.

[@DemagogueBibleStudy]

@@m1gr3nA The difference in scale is important

[@faerie7dragon]

Sol Ring is like Brainstorm, it has been grandfather'd into a format, it will never get banned. It is funny to see people who got their mana crypts banned lash out that Sol Ring, the budget option, that anyone can get, didn't get banned too. Former Mana Crypt owner btw. I just got lucky and sold it before it got banned, for it caused a lot of feels bad in my playgroup, for we have several budget players.

[@Tom_Ace_US]

Okay? You’re mistaken if you don’t realize that most people play CEDH and don’t follow the RC anymore. Competitions are the issue we are upset with because they follow the RC, the ban neuters our deck and we need to fill it with another comparable card. So, honestly that’s why the card hasn’t dropped to a few bucks lol we are still going to play them. And there’s already talk about unbanning it LOL So enjoy casual, wizards are pushing new power in the new sets, go watch alpha investments and mtg mox man if you think banning these solved “casual” lol

[@TardustheToasty]

​@@Tom_Ace_USGosh darn, you swallowed the entire salt shaker it seems. Keeping your emotions in check seems to be a lost art, that even adults are incapable of learning. That behavior is the reason, I do not feel bad for people who lose 'money' because of bannings.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@Tom_Ace_US Most people don't okay CEDH lol Most people that want to play competitively play in any of the other formats beside EDH The EDH ban list should prioritize the fun of the casuals in the only non-competitive format.

[@Aarenby]

​@@Tom_Ace_USmost people don't play Cedh

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

@@Tom_Ace_US No they don't.

[@unforseenconsequense]

CEDH needs to have it's own banlist to exist as a healthy competitive format

[@StrongButAwkward]

It also needs to be 1v1 to be a real competitive format. Thing is, 1v1 competitive EDH has existed for years. It's called French/Duel EDH/Commander and if cEDH player *really* wanted to played a competitive EDH variant there would have been an exodus of cEDH players to French (or maybe Canadian Highlander) but cEDH players have for years not acted in line with their rhetoric. In reality if you just use cEDH players' actions and behavior to indicate what they really want, you see they largely don't actually want to engage in real competitive formats, the really just want to throw nukes at each other in a bouncy castle multiplayer casual format but they want the status and implied superiority vs other casual players that the label 'competitive' makes them feel. There are some cEDH players are honest about the fact that it's not balanced at all and they don't really want it to be, they like coming to cEDH to throw nukes in an easy mode format and multiplayer setting, but those are usually players that *actually* play competitive 1v1 formats and aren't trying to use playing cEDH and merely cosplaying competitive play as their credentials.

[@cedarbobedar7223]

cEDH can't have it's own banlist - it's a subset of EDH and a product of events with prizes for that format - if you try to separate it from EDH it will just shrink away and the players will go back to playing the highest level EDH decks they're allowed to. If you really want to get away from the EDH RC you might want to check out Canadian Highlander - Crypt is still legal there

[@shadowfrost__]

@@cedarbobedar7223 I recently heard a member of the RC say, they (the RC) don't consider cEDH when discussing bans, they (the RC) don't want to govern it, and that cEDH players are more than welcome to form their own RC and manage their own format as they see fit. It seems to me that these bans are asking or down right trying to force the cEDH community to splinter off and do their own thing. To me it feels like they drew a line in the sand saying these cards are for a competitive environment and have no place in a casual setting.

[@ericyang8474]

@StrongButAwkward I think a lot people who play cEDH do so for gameplay over status. It's a game, they want to win, no holding back. Not much deeper than that. Duel Commander is a format I prefer more, but I also understand that the gameplay there is very different than traditional Commander, since life totals and interaction forces people to shift how they play. The outcry of the ban is in part because the competitiveness in 4 player now shifts, but I think there's more to the fact that people who spent hundreds of dollars (especially as of recent) on these cards now have done so in vain. I personally think those cards needed to be banned, but I am biased since I never bought the expensive cards. My DC deck also does not require any of these cards to play in a high powered 4 player pod, and Nadu is the only 1 of the 4 cards that is both legal and playable in the DC format.

[@underscore_5450]

Fr. Casual EDH should be very much treated like a playground. Play what you want, try to have fun. If CEDH had an actual competitive scene ran by Wotc then toxic players would go there for their fix and leave casuals alone. The lack of a tournament scene hurts EDH more than Mana Crypt ever did.

[@Gray_Falcon]

I don't think any of these should have been banned. I'm not opposed to cards being banned but they should be proactively banned. Once established in the format for years, it shouldn't be banned. The response from the rules committee on Nadu and Jeweled Lotus should have been, this card will be banned on release. If they are separate from WOTC then they shouldn't let WOTC printings control the narrative. Otherwise they need to happen quickly like Hull breacher, before they have a chance to imbed themselves in the format.

[@TheOmegaBear09]

While I personally would love to see Sol Ring banned, I do completely understand the RCs decision to leave it alone. However Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, and Mox Opal (in particular, since it doesn't have the slightly harder to achieve hoops the other moxen have associated with it) should probably go as well for the reasons you've mentioned

[@JD-gk7eh]

Mox Opal is the hardest of the three to turn on early. Chrome Mox has never been legal in Modern while Mox Opal lasted many years. Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox see regular play in Legacy while Mox Opal doesn't. It's by far the weakest of those three moxes. If you're going to ban one, it's Chrome Mox, the most powerful of them. It's by far the easiest to gain from.

[@gbasso666]

​@@JD-gk7eh Still, the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox is real. Legacy is a good example. If Sol Ring was legal, it would be played in 95% of Legacy deck (if not all). Chrome mox is played in ONE single deck out of the top 10 of the meta atm. ONE. The card gets a bad rep because of what it did in Standard Mirrodin era, but it wouldnt even be OP in Modern. It would only create a new archtype of prison decks, but that's it.

[@stonedphilosopher2185]

Quiet! There's been enough damage already

[@tomw6056]

@@JD-gk7eh Chrome Mox should have been banned too, but the logic the Rules Committee used here.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@tomw6056what logic? They gave justifications for why they decided to ban these specific cards not that this is some guiding principle they maintain as a logically consistent axiom of the format.

[@arvidsteel6557]

10:24 This is an argument that applies to Lutri. It applies to Golos, Nadu and every other legendary creature. It's almost and argument against having a banlist altogether and you shot it in the foot almost immediately by pointing out how easy it is to just sandbag a Sol Ring to "politick the politics" that are supposed to keep it in check. If you wanna keep it legal cause it's part of how you want the format to look or because it would be to much of a hit to people's wallets that's fine. But can we stop pretending that Sol Ring is going to be magically balanced by table politics in a way that seemingly applies to no other card? Also Sol Ring is just better than Mana Crypt. The damage is relevant even in cEDH, meaning it's definitely more so in casual play.

[@kushluk777]

The bans just mean that Green Ramp is even more untouchable than ever. I remember when MTG had more than one valid format, so I didn't have to care what Commander ever did.

[@seanwechsler6783]

Green is the only color that should be able to ramp. All these colorless mana rocks destroy the point of greens mana ramp in the color pie.

[@rimmer6335]

It's not balanced though​@@seanwechsler6783

Green's thing from the getgo was being one with nature, so they had access to ramp to power out large creatures. However, now that alot of creatures are also spells, it makes green more and more potent.

[@zarathos888]

I mean treasures/fast mana are still better then a lot of ramp options. Jeskas will, gold span dragon ancient copper dragon. If anything i just want more ramp hate with upsides. More confounding conundrums, burn effects that affect land counts, for black and red aristocrats, group slug players. We dont have to go mass land destruction but we could tax mana bases with white/blue effects that gives card draw or treasures for tapping with excess lands.

[@tylerremer8819]

*looks at green ramp with a mana vault in the deck*

[@robertfrosty514]

I’m totally okay with Sol Ring not being banned, because they acknowledged that according to their own criteria, it should be banned. I’m fine with them carving out an exemption for a very accessible card, that is part of the format’s identity, as long as they let us know why the inconsistencies exist.

[@robsykes1491]

Everyone can have a Sol ring. Only those with $190 can have a crypt.

[@reidmoore8754]

This was my point I made. I can go to my LGS buy 20+ copies of Sol Ring for like 8 bucks meanwhile I would need to sell my arm and leg for a copy of each of those banned cards.

[@MearsOfGar]

But it's wizards fault, because they are greedy. It could have been reprinted more frequently and it would be the same status as sol ring.

[@FDRTKOva]

But that's CEDH, and CEDH is not fun to play imo. Casual Commander is fun to play and that's where you have all these shenanigans. My friends and I said fuck you to the Mana Crypt Ban. Because it helps facilitate our goofy decks.

[@matthewrose8002]

Why did we leave power 9 in the format then?

[@robsykes1491]

@@matthewrose8002 because the odds of someone rocking up to the table with a non-proxy piece of the 9 is very very very unlikely

[@MusicalBoarder]

Sol ring isnt hundreds of dollara. It comes with every precon. It does not need to be banned bexause everyone can EASILY get it. There is basically no barrier to entry. Not everyone has $200 to spend on a mana crypt. And this is coming from a guy who has mana crypts.

[@reedg6836]

IMO Commander shouldn’t have a banlist. CEDH should, because high-power players are the only people who really care about a strict ruleset on deckbuilding. For most other players, I think the social contract is enough. You don’t see people running stone rain in casual commander, do you?

[@andrewruoff4687]

I think it’s good particularly for public places to play commander where you don’t know people very well to have a list of cards not to play that everyone can find easily.

[@BlackJustice2637]

I generally like the bans we got. Sol Ring is the most accessible fast mana money wise, and it's only usable in this edh. Certain commanders also do cool things with it, and apparently, playing Sol Ring lowers your winate due to becoming the archnemesis of the table. Source: a podcast episode from the edhrecast, I think. That, combined with the fact that it's not too difficult to remove, makes me happy with it staying legal. Sidenote: I feel like it'd be nice to have something like a cedh format, curated to have powerful games while maintaining some balance, and letting edh have a casual focused banlist. I love commander, but its integrity is held by rule 0, people being outpriced from gross staples, and ducktape. I do understand that the appeal of cedh is pushing the edh to its limits, but it can't be fun to have so many slots in a deck prefilled by the same staples.

[@Sporkmo]

I get not banning sol ring for being iconic, that's the same justification wotc itself uses to keep the Delve mechanic in pioneer, and my deck lives by that

[@khub5660]

Mana crypt is just as iconic yet here we are

[@JoelWallens]

@@khub5660Bwahahaha,nice lie bud

[@khub5660]

@@JoelWallens prove that it's a lie. I'm waiting kiddo

[@JoelWallens]

@@khub5660 You don't prove a negative, you prove a positive claim. So, there is no way you can prove it is iconic like Sol Ring. And you know this, so you're trying to shift the burden of proof.

[@khub5660]

@JoelWallens lmao apparently, you're braindead. Mana Crypt has been a cornerstone of the EDH format since its inception. The only thing that kept more people from playing the card was a price tag, and even that is circumvented by playing a proxy. The card became even more iconic to the format due to the recent printings of it in premium products. You done shifting the burden of proof yet? Because you came after me, not the other way around. You prove any claim you make, whether it's positive or negative.

[@dyne313]

1 out of 99 cards accelerating you on turn 1 is fine. 3 isn't as fine. If any of the 3 should stay (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus), it should be Sol Ring.

[@OrcaneVault]

Sol ring staying unbanned is correct. But I will say Mana crypt feels iconic to the format as well. Still think this should have just remained a power level discussion card before you played. We should be aiming to ban as few cards as possible.

[@dkznikolaj7013]

I mean yes... this is the first ban in 5 years and it hit very few cards (including nadu which everyone was convinced would be banned anyways)

[@lodakras]

But they don't ban shit for nothing, what do you mean? 4 cards in a 5 year space is less than one a year and extremely lenient considering the cards we are talking about, crypt, dockside, lotus and nadu, all of them ridiculous in power level

[@ynottony24]

@@lodakras There's a lot of cards at ridiculous power levels and it's not reasonable to ban them all. Rule 0 should be above all to have a fair and fun game, otherwise, you're starting to nanny people's decks.

[@krazykorean2525]

I mean they should have printed crypt into the ground like they did sol ring. That eliminates the barrier to entry.

[@OrcaneVault]

@@lodakras I meant the ban list should be as small as possible. Power level discussions resolve issues with cards like mana crypt, jeweled lotus, and dockside which are just mana accelerants (granted dockside can also easily go infinite but wanting to play against infinites is also a discussion point). Cards like Nadu are closer to the type of cards that should actually having bannings. Cards that just create a miserable game experience and the logic the RC gave for Nadu reflect this.

[@bendersbrain]

With all the push WOTC did on those cards (JLo and MCrypt) those bans are simply fraud and stupid decisions. Deception and greed is all you hear when you look at the full portrait. They should go back on some of those decisions in the next few weeks, Confidence and love in the game are as low as you can get right now,..

[@Caseyuptobat]

Sol Ring is core to Commander not just as a format but a product line. It has been since they first started printing commander precons. You ban Sol Ring, commander stops being commander.

[@bertrugin]

For every turn one Sol Ring I've had, I have had a turn ten Sol Ring and thought "Right on time".

[@jemolk8945]

"I need an untapped land off the top to be able to do a thing this turn" >draws sol ring< "Eh, close enough"

[@ignition9076]

Turn one Sol Ring because it's the only 1 cmc in your hand, land pass turn 2, land 4 cmc thing turn 3. Pretty close to my usual experience with seeing a turn 1 Sol Ring. Yes, I've seen a few explosive starts fuelled by Sol Ring, but I've also had some stupidly explosive starts without Sol Ring. Turn 3 hardcast og Vorinclex is pretty explosive in my books.

[@woofergranade2044]

Wow I’m glad I’m not playing mtg anymore lmao *goes back to his Stormcast army that has had 60% of it rotated out this edition 😢* Yup… no regrets here.

[@inscrutablewut]

Because one piece of ubiquitous fast mana in every deck isnt a huge gameplay issue. Having consistent fast mana is where the issues arise. Pubstomp/cedh decks usually run every fast mana card available. Limiting them to fewer options to lower consistency is the right move.

[@chriscongemi2109]

I will just say every time i land, sol, signet I lost. So theres that

[@Cthuski]

"This is insane they just took hundreds of dollars out of peoples' pockets!" "The reserve list needs to go"

[@TheMattmatic]

The bans were great. And I own a Dockside and a Crypt. The reserve list needs to go.

[@Cthuski]

@TheMattmatic congrats on being in the minority of people not complaining about the bans from a financial perspective?

[@TheMattmatic]

@@Cthuski Yeah, but I do get it since many players basically only play commander and its been years since the RC took any real action. I've played Modern the most and there it's always a consideration you make when you choose to buy into cards/decks, knowing things get banned and lose value.

[@goliathsteinbeisser3547]

@@TheMattmatic I own a bunch of Crypts and RL cards and I am fine with abolishing the RL. In fact, I would be overjoyed. WotC can handle reprint equity just fine.

[@TangleTrail]

I own a Black Lotus and still maintain that the reserved list needs to go.

[@mth4456]

I will straight up tell you I don't care you lost money. Stop crying

[@michaeltate6367]

Pretty sure they are using the word geometrically in the mathematical sense of a geometric sequence or series. They're just saying that removing multiple fast mana pieces reduces the number of explosive starts by a lot more than just removing one would

[@michaeltate6367]

You can substitute in the word "exponentially" and it might make more sense, although I think mathematically speaking geometrically is the correct term here

[@johnvonkerman]

​@@michaeltate6367 neither is correct. Reducing something by 4, or, 10, or a million is not reducing it geometrically. It needs to be reduced or increased every time step. For instance, Najeela tokens increase geometrically if left unchecked.

[@JP-go5tr]

This is the biggest thing to happen in the commander community for years!! No worries, making another video on it!! Hell, bring back Dies to Removal for it 👀....

[@xxfearxx14]

Hear me out guys. Make a format called Legacy Commander and exclude RC from banning our lists.

[@fountaingoat6802]

This

[@shanaeverowe9626]

It's called tabletop, and it's existed since day 1.

[@kevinwestermann1001]

Anarchy has its appeals but they do not outweigh the appeals of the rule of law.

[@yellowsaurus4895]

I mostly play standard so maybe there's something I'm not getting, but i don't understand why more people aren't just saying this. Like, there's no sanctioned cEDH tournaments or anything, right? So why would you care what the RC says about an unsanctioned format that people just play with their friends for fun?

[@shanaeverowe9626]

@@yellowsaurus4895 because if you show up expecting to be able to play any of the banned cards at a commander pod, there is bound to be hard feelings when you get over ruled by the rest of the pod that wants a fun casual game and not a sweaty try hard experience

[@flip713]

Nobody wants sol ring banned. They’re crying because their expensive cards got banned.

[@ardendavid5515]

exactly, creators are making a drama lol

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

Really slow cedh games spund so much fun, yes lets ban all reserved list cards, all fast mana, all rituals. Cedh aside, wait remind me what is the point of a casual format again? I came to commander because i was sick of rotation, i didnt want to be told i couldnt play cards. Commander will live super long if we remove all the value from the format and leave nothing of value for collectors to chase.

[@matthewgagnon9426]

I'd rather they cater to players than people who are using the game as an investment opportunity, and I have dozens of dual lands from Unlimited and Revised.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

@@matthewgagnon9426 both things have to matter for a tcg to live. Players dont spend anywhere near the money collectors do, they help keep a tcg alive grow up. You buying cases every set?

[@Watsabeholder]

​@@jeremiahchamberlain4179 who do these speculators sell their cards to every set? These were among the most inaccessible, broken cards in the format. They needed to go. The only mistake was not immediately banning them when they were created.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

@@Watsabeholder mox diamond, cradle, grim monolith, true duals, time twister are innacessible lol, get real.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

@@Watsabeholder mana crypt has been part of the game for 30 years

[@Kayzizzle]

I mean, they already split the format on people's opinions on this, and power level yesterday. This by a side effect reduces the participation in this format for a lot of people seen by many of those exiting. If they banned sol ring, they were had just compounded the exodus. The bigger issue is mana crypt, dockside, jeweled lotus and expressively sol ring were such format staples (maybe less dockside) in the design space for wizards that makes a lot of commanders who are high costed less playable. They also have no data on games like modern/standard. That being said, they are going to hit now tutors, win cons, and all fast mana. Most people considered crypt as a format staple, but clearly the only "sacred cow" is sol ring and pillars of the format, there is very much that is on the chopping block for people who join edh for people who doesn't want their cards banned every few months from due to Wizards poor design feature

[@40Found]

I think Jim LaPage put it best when he said "I definitely don't think people would be happier yesterday if Sol ring got the axe too."

[@impendio]

I’m not happy to begin with

[@christopherpatricklizares5306]

I wasn't gonna be any more happy, that's for sure. XD I still find the Sol Ring exception justified, but I'm most definitely not happy right now in any case.

[@khub5660]

​@@christopherpatricklizares5306i find it hypocritical as best

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@khub5660 I'd say nuanced

[@aaronwishard7093]

​@@TheEvolver311It's not nuanced. It's literally hypocritical to say with one hand "fast mana is bad. Let's ban all fast mana". Which was their reasoning for Crypt. Yet in the same paragraph say, "oh but don't ask us to ban Sol Ring, that's the pet card." Fast Mana is fast mana.

[@mcglubski]

I am more okay with Sol Ring even tho I think its lame I feel the need to have it in every commander deck. Sol Ring has 100000x reprints it'd be so funny if it was banned when it's pushed so hard

[@Fireslingerpirate]

Having format defining cards/mechanics is a great thing. Sol Ring should stay just like Brainstorm in Legacy.

[@DaejinTye]

The timing is what kills me, every time. I finally break down and get the expensive cards and less than 2 weeks later they get banned. Honestly, this just happened to be the straw for me where I'm just going to get almost exclusively proxies from now on. I can literally buy 10 proxy decks for commander for the price of 1 average real deck. Also opens up the gateways to experimentation and playing janky decks or themes focused more on a fun idea than I need to make the deck viable to win to justify the cost.

[@weshansen8682]

Fake cards is not an answer. It's a fraud.

[@Bubben246]

Fraud is intentionally misrepresenting the value of something for monetary gain. Proxying (and being upfront about it) does neither of these things. Conversely, I could attempt to argue that any card, from any set, in similar if not identical condition, should only be "worth" whatever the least valuable card from that printing slot is, as it's all just pictures on cardboard.

[@DaejinTye]

@weshansen8682 The proxies I have printed have altered backs and most have custom art. None of them are able to passed off as genuine cards and everyone I play with is made aware of the proxies. WotC have already made public their support of proxies.

[@arandombard1197]

@@weshansen8682 There's no such thing as fake cards. They're just paper with art printed on them. They're either printed by WOTC or you print them yourselves.

[@weshansen8682]

@@arandombard1197 Wrong. But, I respect your right to be wrong. Even when you are very wrong. If you don't understand you are wrong, there is little point in explaining your error in fact.

[@CHoustonify]

Because Wizard's printing department alone would flay them alive. Imagine if every precon that's currently in a warehouse somewhere that hasn't come out yet, at least a dozen, probably closer to two dozen, suddenly weren't legal.

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

There would just be a rule in place like "playing an unedited precon with banned cards are the exception", like when they banned a card from one of the modern precons way back when.

[@JD-gk7eh]

@@dudemcfurgusson7179 The difference is that there was one Modern precon like that. There's 124 Commander precons as of right now. That's a lot of exceptions.

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

@JD-gk7eh the number is irrelevant, if you're playing a precon with no changes, sol ring would be legal, otherwise it isn't. Keeps the precons legal and offers what is effectively a free slot to slide in a card that you really want to play without worrying about what to take out for it, since sol ring would have to come out anyway.

[@JD-gk7eh]

@@dudemcfurgusson7179 It becomes an issue because if you've got a minorly upgraded precon, is it worth it to revert back to the precon itself to get Sol Ring? The answer will be yes some of the time, depending on what you added. In the exception cases where banned cards were allowed for unmodified precons in constructed Magic, the decks were at a major disadvantage to begin with, either because they weren't quite full meta decks (old precons) or they were budget versions of meta decks (Challenger decks). Against decks of similar power level, a deck with Sol Ring will have an advantage over one that doesn't have it, so there's incentive to play an unmodified precon instead of a ~$100 original build. A "Sol Ring exception" for untouched precons will encourage people not to mess with the deck at all, and I don't think that's at all what we want.

[@Mobius_ll]

​@JD-gk7eh the number is irrelevant it's 1 rule. Besides, at the rate we get decks now we'll catch up to that in a couple years of new decks

[@CrashKaiju]

I think the bans were good 👍

[@sleepwellmychild]

They should either ban Sol Ring or unban Crypt and Lotus imo. Their reasoning is weak. The ban has, "we got sick of the our own personal pods feeling homogenized," vibes.

[@fleeinggenie0933]

This, I whole heartedly agree with this. If your reasoning is that they mechanic is too overpowered then wipe out the mechanic. If the problem is that Mana Vault is too hard to get then say that. Don't hide behind a reason of "Oh this mechanic is broken so we're going to ban SOME cards with this mechanic but not all"

Yeah, not a great take considering how expensive the freshly banned cards were. Those two cards are like a paycheck to some folks, how is that price fine? And besides, you can just rule zero that stuff back in. If you're not playing at cEDH tournaments, it ultimately doesn't matter. You and your pals/pod can just agree to use them again.

[@Asghaad]

and for that you have rule 0 ... if pod agress to not play fast mana then that up to them, the hard ruling like this has far more reaching and most importantly SEVERE FINANCIAL IMPACT these people eitehr ignore ... or worse are well aware of and will take advantage of ...

[@fleeinggenie0933]

If the price was the concern that was expressed, i'd 100% agree with you. But it wasn't. The concern was with the mechanic itself. Hence why it seems hypocritical sol ring didn't get a ban.

Don't invest in expensive cardboard then. Did we literally learn nothing from Snapcaster, Tarmogyf, or any of the old modern staples that lost alot of value due to powercreep? There's no excuse for that to have not opened some eyes. No matter the reason, do not expect your cards to always hold a premium value.

[@D-Boy22]

If there's only one fast mana in the format, it definitly has to be Sol Ring. I think it's nice to have a lucky 1/100 "super" card. Gives the same feeling than picking up a power weapon in a oldschool FPS game when you draw it early.

[@jnuty85]

After this ban i will never buy another card from wizards that about the 20$ period! my play group and LGS are very proxy friendly and now so am I after having hundred of dollars just evaporate out of my collection over night. WTF do i do with these cards now i only play EDH, i dont even like modern or vintage.

[@dkznikolaj7013]

There's nothing to do. The unfortunate truth is that this happened. It saves future people from investing into it the way you did, but there's nothing that saves you in this.

[@Watsabeholder]

@@jnuty85 welcome to the objectively correct way to enjoy commander

[@goliathsteinbeisser3547]

Throw them in a 60 card jank deck that you play between commander rounds for fun.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

Maybe dont play a format where this is always a looking threat. Or maybe you should have been proxy friendly before it affected you personally.

[@kuroginava8498]

You keep them in case they ever return or you sell them, but its not like any deck is unplayable just because of the ban.

[@FightinTheGorlax]

The timing just feels scummy since 3 out of 4 of the cards were used as chase rares to sell packs, then they offloaded their back stock of those packs into the festival in a box, and THEN they banned the cards.

[@impendio]

This so much

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Wizards didn't ban this, the committee is seperate, they likely banned them in part because of those practices

[@OracleCura]

The RC isn't owned, paid or run by WOTC. They don't have any interest in selling packs. WOTC can push all the cards it wants, the RC must remain objective about the format. The last thing you want is them avoiding a needed ban because "little timmy spent so much money on packs and really invested in that card".

[@FightinTheGorlax]

You can believe the timing of everything is a coincidence if you want. I don't.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@FightinTheGorlax not a single person said that it's a coincidence, people just told you that wizards didn't make this decision

[@BlueGriffin20]

I’ll mention this too: While it will invalidate the precons, Sol Ring also is the only one of the main rocks that has gotten a Secret Lair release. Banning it would make those more or less useless too.

[@GumikoVT]

Banning Sol Ring just seems dumb to me. Like the 3 cards they just banned yesterday were inaccessible to many players because of their price. Sol ring is a $1 card. Because it's so cheap it can be in every deck, so I don't see why it needs to be banned, especially in a format where each card is limited to one to begin with.

[@goliathsteinbeisser3547]

I have been thinking and arguing about Sol Ring a lot for a long time. Here is my humble 2 cents: A format can bear a certain amount of cards like Sol Ring. Not many, but a few. Those cards should not be locked into a single color to avoid imbalance. Magic is about variance, probability and controling, reducing or at least navigating those factors. In this sense, the explanation by the RC is top notch and on point. Just Sol Ring in the format is a much different set of numbers than Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Especially the power of Mana Crypt becomes ever more noticeable as average cmc continues decreasing. There is a lot more that goes into this, but the difference between 1 and 0 mana gets ever more pronounced in such environments.

[@jonahwarner4498]

I’ve heard this a lot, and I’m willing to believe it’s a genuinely held opinion, but I disagree. When each deck has 1 sol ring, the odds that one deck will draw one and get a significant advantage are fairly high. This frequently leads to dead games, especially if other players don’t have early interaction. When each deck has 4 effective sol rings, they are more likely to be a part of the game, but also more likely to benefit more than one player and balance each other out somewhat. Swingy and inconsistent decks are fun in theory, but they lead to feelsbad games in practice. Decks going fast is not an objective problem but rather a matter of preference. Decks going at wildly different speeds in the same game IS a problem, and I think these bans make that problem worse.

[@IronWilliam]

Fully agreed with this. I actually like Sol Ring for adding some interesting variance to games - on it's own, it's not so overwhelming players can't gang up against a good start, and the random nature of who has one early leads to greater variety in which decks end up the frontrunners. Having multiple pieces of fast mana, and specifically Mana Crypt for being free, push the variance too far and make it much easier to get so far ahead you're untouchable. For example, being free means with Mana Crypt you have easier access to colored mana on turn 1 - and island and a mana crypt, that's just enough to drop Rhystic Study on the table on your very first turn! Or play Cultivate, or hold up an answer for someone else's fast mana, or Jeska's Will into 7 more mana, etc. Crypt opens up a lot of T1 plays for free that would otherwise requires more niche, weaker cards.

[@m1gr3nA]

​@@jonahwarner4498yes more fast mana available means less disproportion in its effect in game between players. but realistically since crypt was almost not played in average commander game the difference should not be noticeable. this will affect mostly cedh.

[@JohnSmith-vk9ds]

"A format can bear a certain amount of cards like Sol Ring. Not many, but a few." I love how nobody who makes this claim realizes that this is an argument in favor of banning Sol Ring instead of Mana Crypt. If the end result in banning one of these is that games will go on for longer, then Mana Crypt is clearly the weaker of the two cards if only for the fact that it's more dangerous to you the more turns you have it in play, while Sol Ring has the same benefit for zero drawbacks.

[@jonahwarner4498]

⁠@@m1gr3nA Definitely agree, but then why ban the cards in the first place? A lot of people who like the bans seem to think they will prevent pubstomping, which…? Maybe? Seems very unlikely. Assholes will be assholes until you ban everything but precons. My playgroup tends to play at the border of casual and cEDH, where fast mana is used to power up suboptimal strategies and wincons. I don’t know how many people play like that, but I’m personally very bummed because these bans say to me that that’s a kind of magic the RC doesn’t want played. The upside is that my group is now having more comprehensive rule 0 conversations to work around this nonsense.