Let’s Talk About the Bans | The Command Zone | MTG EDH Magic Gathering

[@commandcast]

How are you taking this announcement? What do you think? Are these bans good for commander?

[@walkingdonut1385]

Lost over $200 on a Christmas presents for my brother............ so I'm great

[@ApproachoftheSecondGame]

I've always been an enjoyer of putting away fast mana from edh decks (even sol ring) for different reasons, so it makes me happy to see them go, BUT it sucks financially for everyone who bought copies of these cards

[@RobinHollinshead]

I can’t believe they banned 4 cards and JLK! Seriously though it sucks for people who invested in the big cards but the format will probably be more healthy for casual players. the big three were starting to seep into casual pods because people pulled them. Rule 0 should have been enough but it can be difficult to enforce so the bans were necessary imo.

[@Dragetsuyatamiki]

Josh, kinda wish you had some representation now, to let the cag know that there should be separate list for cedh and edh

[@Klaritsa]

Although I own 11 mana crypts I feel I prefer games to run "smoothlier" so I am fine with the bans. I was never an investor nor a vendor so financial value isn't relevant to me. I don't know how I would react if I was a magic investor but for me I play magic for fun and do not get in account card values.

[@rulamagic]

JLK’s points are good. However, this is a wake up call. MTG card prices have proven to be very volatile and subject to the whim of a select group of people. Perhaps it isn't wise to see MTG as investment or pay hundreds of dollars for a piece of cardboard if you care about it retaining its financial value.

[@DrummerRF]

100%

[@Andersonzabuza]

So you argument is against people being collectors in the first place?

[@rav3style]

this is such a beanie babies situation.

[@Simonethedog]

if the ban reduces the price that much it means magic as a collectible is worthless compared to the demand to play with

[@Simonethedog]

@@Andersonzabuza if the card as any real collector values than the price will stay up if not than the value of the card wasnt for its collectible value it was because it was in high demand for the game. collectors should be aware of that. pokemon doesnt have that problem because people collect them they dont play with them so much of the value comes from a collectible value

[@Addeand]

The mistake with this banlist is that they are banned 3-5 years too late.

[@DeCode343]

Absolutely true.

[@Rundvelt]

But then WOTC couldn't have printed those chase cards and gotten massive profits!

[@LordJaroh]

That, and Wizard's shouldn't be using these cards as lottery tickets only. Having them as chase cards without having accessible versions as well is the main failure.

[@TempRawr]

@@Rundvelt they would have printed other chases cards, its more just a mistake in the process than the choices.

[@DeaconClash5000]

These are all good bans. The only reason to oppose these bans is that you were personally financially impacted, which has nothing to do with the game. Bans are made for the health of the game, not the health of your wallet.

[@ke_ag]

How could the RC do this? Didn't they think of how this would affect Post Malone?

[@bendickinson9965]

😂

[@WytchfynderGeneral]

Oh no! Rich people cant play with their overpriced cardboard anymore 😭

[@lightworker2956]

Won't anyone think of those poor millionaires who can't pubstomp us peasants as easily after this banning?

[@kennynguyen2970]

Lol do you think only millionaires can afford $300 in cards? If you have a full time job at all you should have that much disposable income.

[@ke_ag]

@@kennynguyen2970 I'm on welfare and make proxies on post it notes. My average deck power level is 9.5 and I go to my LGS and pubstomp for booster packs.

[@nathanmetts7865]

If Jeweled Lotus mattered so much, it should regularly be included in precon commander decks. If that doesn't feel right, you aren't in it for the game; you are in it for the investment.

[@IIIHUSKIII]

There is nothing wrong with being in the game for investment. If you disagree, then explain that to your LGS.

[@pokeslim]

​@@IIIHUSKIIIyes, but you need to understand that all investments have risk involved. That's is the nature of investments, and furthermore, it's a game first and competitive integrity should never be sacrificed for the sake of investors.

[@nathanoys7474]

@@IIIHUSKIII all investments are subject to crashing. Cards take a risk by selling singles. That’s capitalism

[@JimmyR42]

@@IIIHUSKIII Nothing wrong is a bold claim, but the main issue with your statement is that you seem to be confusing 2 very different games. MTG has nothing to do with stock speculation. Games should be optimized for fun experiences, not profitability. You're putting the cart before the horse. Every games that are fun are profitable, but not every profitable games are fun.

[@ashm6416]

People seem to forget that there are others out there that enjoy playing powerful cards. That doesn't mean these people want precons to be high powered commander decks.... this is an insane comment, everyone is so focused on the price without understanding that other people's enjoyment can be different than theirs.

[@oldpoetmen]

While I agree with your points in how sudden the ban was, I also don’t think that “my friends who are a famous NFL player and literally Post Malone love playing these expensive cards” is a winning argument; in fact, that feels like it just adds fuel to an argument on the other side, that these cards often felt like pay-to-win pubstomp tickets for the financially well-off.

[@JimmyR42]

But, but, what about the millionaires?! Much love to Cassius and Postie, I enjoyed seeing them on Game Knight, but I wouldn't want to play with my 200-300$ deck against their 2k$+ "casual" decks.

[@siritachi31]

Yeah the amount of tone deaf in this entire episode was insane. He wants to point out that people use these cards and it hurts them but then only lists people who can drop a cool grand on a deck whenever they feel like it. For the normal player these bans either don't hurt them or will hit one card. And most of the time the people using these cards know the risk and do it anyway. I think Josh here is coming from someone who can play with any card he could think of. Where as most people can't and it's fine. These cards 100% were always pay to win cards that would win the game, tons of people took them to locals with people using less expensive cards and got their shit kicked in. These bans help the majority of players who don't use them. I think he doesn't understand that Posty not able to play his fancy cards isn't the problem

[@ashm6416]

Believe it or not, more than millionaires like to play with powerful cards. What you are doing here is a bad faith argument. Many people I play with very much enjoy playing commander at a higher power level... obviously. Stop being salty, you no longer have to worry about a scary card.hurting your feelings, and now millions if people don't get to enjoy the game in the same way they did previously.

[@lockiQcGaming]

​@@siritachi31its not about whos rich and whose isnt. Banning a card that have substantiel value 25 years later is a slap to the face to all those player who bought the card to play woth If mtg card have to have the mentality of no intrinsic value why have rarity and scaracy and not reprint the living shit of evry card. Mmh. Why have a réservé list. WOTC understand the finance value of thier card as a collective. Sure investor speculate and jack up price. But buy à game pieve and hoping it regain it value is owning and not investing

[@oldpoetmen]

@@ashm6416 I’m not saying only rich people play with these cards, I’m just saying that it reads as tone-deaf to people who hated these cards because of how powerful *and* expensive they were to use two millionaires to illustrate that point.

[@kinlerj]

The real problem is that 3 out of the 4 of these cards should never have been designed IMO

[@ShadowTaiga]

Poor mana crypt was never designed to really be played but found a home in commander. I'll miss you little rock.

[@TobiasHanika-vg6st]

That is actually not the problem, since the mistake has already been made. Box is open. Our problem is how we deal with it.

[@jamespooh2]

This is exactly my point. Mana crypt has the excuse of being old but the other 3 shouldn't have been made in the first place. WOTC is the problem, not the RC

[@roxashenry8315]

What's the 4th out of curiosity? I think 4 out of 4 was a perfect hit, infact they should do more

[@xDukii]

​@@roxashenry8315I wish they banned solring too

[@KillerBSan]

Probably gonna proxy all the expensive cards from now on.

[@seizan88]

Well, should have done so from the beginning

[@PsychicFrogBoi]

​@seizan88 if everyone does that, lgs and the community dies. This is a slap in the face to all the card shop owners. Jc and Mc were reprinted recently to sell packs

[@TealVelvet]

You have found it, the TRUE way of EDH.

[@Skyfysh]

I’m going to proxy everything. I use to have “one ofs” for expensive cards. But after the ban, I’ve no confidence to spend money on any MTG product.

[@seizan88]

@@PsychicFrogBoi fair enough, you not wrong. That said, there is no reason a piece of cardboard, that can be produced for probably a few cents, should be 200 bucks. Especially in a format that's supposed to be casual.

[@jacobbowser1158]

3 years for a new Banlist is wild! As someone who's coming back to MTG after 19 years, and has been mainly playing Yugioh for that time, where a new Banlist drops every 4 months often driven by player input in the OCG (Asia, Eurasia, and the Middle East) similar to EDH. This whole EDH Banlist/ backlash just strikes me as Pay-To-Win Format that needed a necessary Emergency Ban(s), but offered no real solution.

[@DerpHerper]

Don't agree with this financial concern being positioned as coming from players at large. There's a reason we cheer reprints. The idea of 'card prices are sacrosanct' has brought a lot of pain to the magic community.

[@nateridgewaymusic]

Some of us like the value proposition of Magic. I’ve been playing since August of ‘94, and there has ALWAYS been a financial aspect to the game. We had price guides in year one; so it literally comes with territory.

[@jonfehl876]

@@DerpHerper there’s a huge difference between a price drop due to a reprint and a price drop due to a ban. I am all for printing cards until they are worthless. That would be amazing and would be great for new players. The feel bad comes when the price drop is attached to being unable to play a card. Cards like the masterpiece Mana Crypt were goal posts for my adult life. I bought them when I achieved certain goals in my professional career and could afford them. I would never be opposed to reprinting mana crypt, and was excited to see it in Ixalan in many variants. What I don’t like is buying a card that is not only typically expensive at its base value but more so due to the “showcase” treatment, and then it being invalidated due to it being made unplayable. If WOTC printing regular versions of mana crypt down to $5/10 a piece I don’t thing there would have been a push at all for the card to be banned. It would be treated like all the other sol ring imitation pieces that are still being run and still “get players to 5 mana on turn two.” As someone who enjoys high power, high interaction magic these bans will not change my speed, or my building, but they do still hurt by removing cards that have been available for so long, and were goal posts for many players.

[@Malidictum117]

The existence of the reserved list makes this null and void in the current environment of mtg.

[@nathanaelwaters2509]

​@@nateridgewaymusicand risk also comes with the territory. Sometimes when you gamble you lose 🤷‍♂️

[@GreyeHazel]

I'm totally ok with the prices going down. Like, if they had reprinted mana crypt until it was 5 bucks, you wouldn't see me complain, because I can still play my mana crypt. The part that makes me sad is that now I can't play it anymore, and I doubt I'd even really be able to get rid of it besides just throwing it away.

[@CHEFPKR]

Josh, you and your team got me back into magic during the pandemic after 15 years of not playing. I can't thank you enough for that. I have made so many amazing memories and friends since coming back. /salut

[@socialejongen4037]

Same bro

[@pierpaolomercurio]

Same here man

[@kadafs]

same here bro

[@stumilesyt]

Same! Isn't that crazy? So many of us I bet!

[@SWAN021]

So why is he leaving

[@dawubber6676]

It's my personal opinion that the primary function of the Rules Committee isn't to protect the value of a financial investment, but to set a baseline for strangers playing outside of a dedicated playgroup. I do not like seeing these cards when I'm testing a deck idea on MTGo (and I've specifically requested not to see them), and strangers at my LGS tend to undersell the impact of these cards during a pregame discussion. I prefer a pregame discussion to be used for opting *into* an experience (say a Rule 0 commander) than asking another playing to opt out of an experience (please remove a handfull of cards from your deck). It tends to also go over better. I know folks are going to be hit financially with this, but how does that differ from the risk that folks take when cards are banned from Modern Horizons like my foil Hogaak and full art Grief? I own Docksides. I've been hit hard by bans before (and now), but that's a risk I take with collecting trading cards

[@Tymbaroth]

The main difference between bans in Commander and in Modern/Standard is that the latter are based on actual tournament data so you can see them coming. Here, there was no warning signal. As it has been said in the video, if they spread out the bans and took the time to warn players that important discussions were taking place, it would have smoothed the situation a lot.

[@dawubber6676]

@@Tymbaroth Do I believe the RC could have take a more measured, drawn out, and transparent approach? Absolutely. I think this will dramatically change how they make and communicate changes going forward. Ultimately though, I do agree with the decision to ban these cards in the end, regardless on how it was communicated.

[@krimson459]

@@Tymbaroth Dockside and Jeweled Lotus have been on the very edge of being banned for years now ever since their respective releases and that was clearly communicated to the players. Mana Crypt is the only card out of the four bans that "came out of nowhere" since it was printed well before EDH ever existed however similar cards such as moxen have been banned since the beginning under the umbrella of "similar cards are unhealthy for the format". People being blind sided by these bans have been ignorant. Does it suck that people lost a lot of money? Yes, absolutely, I feel especially bad for individuals who were given these things as gifts by people unaware of them being likely ban candidates. That being said, choosing to spend absurd amounts of money on a piece of cardboard in order to play them in a casual format where the rules literally include "you don't have to follow these just ask your friends" then that is on them. Magic is not an "investment", it's a game. If people choose to see it as an "investment" then that's on them. Wizards and the RC have no need to make sure your cardboard maintains it's superficial value. Edit: I say this as someone who owns thousaands of dollars worth of cards. I don't ever plan on selling and I don't care if I retain the value I put into them or not. I see buying trading cards like buying gasoline for your car. You spend money on it to use and enjoy it in the moment, once their time is up it's okay because the money spent gave me an enjoyable experience. Expecting to profit off of a hobby is unrealistic and absurd in my opinion. Have fun and don't buy things you cannot afford, it's a casual format after all if you want to play with expensive cards you can't afford just proxy them.

[@arenfuentes2591]

You cannot test a deck and complain you are testing a deck for a reason. Its like testing it without getting a honest feedback

[@dawubber6676]

@arenfuentes2591 When I'm testing, I'm testing to see of some like Esper Merfolk, a deck I know is gonna play more casually, curves out properly. I don't need to run into the wall of hyper tuned stax Oloro to know it won't work. This is the most recent example of someone disregarding the "Rule 0" discussion of a game lobby description on MTGo. I appreciate anything that helps set a baseline in that environment. When someone brings a new deck into your playgroup, do you immediately jump to run the strongest deck against it so they get the most "honest feedback" and drive the idea into the dirt? It just feels harsh and kinda rude to me, particularly if that player doesn't know how that new deck will play out yet. Generally, I try to match it up with decks in line with how strong I want that deck to be.

[@eon2330]

Sol ring is a cast, it isn't a land drop, and it is a +1 after the cast (and a +2 EVERY TURN AFTER). When comparing to other cards, the other cards have lock outs, restrictions, temporary effects, and or end up combo pieces instead of rocks. SOL ring is toxic. Gaea's cradle IS also toxic, but at LEAST it requires creatures AND takes a natural land drop up. Everything else is like a ritual or trades multiple cards or has a restriction etc.

[@EthanTowsley]

The arguement that the RC hasnt banned anything in years just gives Hasboro more agency to print cards that players agree prior to release are bad for the format. Blaming the RC for their handling of the bans is valid, but blaming them for curating the format is just feeding Hasboro to break the format for profit.

[@akztar]

@@EthanTowsley does it really matter? Wotc already doing it - this why this cards weren't banned day one. And why companions work, but they should not... Timing gives it away - a year and a quarter, my only guess is that's the rotation period of wotc main warehouse.

[@turgid4391]

@@akztar i think you could reasonably predict this by finding out the average inventory turnover ratio for warehouses that stock magic products. youre most likely right, this is just when they moved the product and could afford to ban it without hurting the bottom line

[@IronWilliam]

Yes. As much as this hurts, I think more than a little bit of the blame needs to be laid at the feet of WotC and Hasbro and the made for commander cards and commander targeted reprints of Mana Crypts. Dockside and Lotus are the two main offenders, and with them being banned, it makes sense to me to just take out Mana Crypt at the same time as it's become more prevalent with reprints. These cards becoming widespread and the RC not banning them sooner is why this hurts so much now, and this is a message to WotC and players that needed to be sent.

[@derkaeptntm5595]

Let's wait 'til next year, when we get ultra-rare, format-legal "Not as good as Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt but good enough to replace them"-chase cards in 5 shiny variants.

[@akztar]

@@turgid4391 exactly. That compromises the whole concept of baning as a game balance tool and make it only financial. And questions the whole purpose of CRC.

[@thatonedudejake]

I don't think the RC should be concerned with the price of cards at all when banning cards. The price of cards is up to WOTC based on the power level they print cards at and how often they reprint these cards. I also think WOTC shouldn't be concerned with price of cards when banning cards (even if we tin foil hat and say they only ban the cards after the packs have sold enough). In my opinion, they should only be concerned with the balance of the format and the player experience. The RC has always been focused on the casual player experience and I don't think that should change. Honestly, I disagree with the RC and I think Sol ring should be banned too. I think anyone that has played PUGs at their LGS or convention can agree that these cards are extremely warping for the format at a casual level. I would also put The One Ring in this group tbh I'm interested to hear other opinions about that card. I don't think demonic consultantion is warping at a casual level because I don't think it is played in casual decks. People played mana crypt, dockside, and jeweled lotus in casual decks. If the argument is casual players should just rule 0 out fast mana, why can't people who want to play at a higher level rule 0 in anything from the ban list? At a casual level, I've never seen an issue with people rule 0ing in silver border cards, or unofficial commanders, high power level players should have an easy time rule 0ing in fast mana. Ultimatly, I think it is easier to rule 0 in cards than rule 0 out cards. Many people are upset because they lost a lot of value in cards. I get that. It's not the RC's fault for WOTC's card design and reprint policy that makes cards expensive. I think refusing to ban expensive cards would make the format worse. Also, if you're treating mtg cards like an investment, sometimes the line goes down.

[@X20Adam]

100% Agree, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[@patrickmorrisoconnor5419]

Facts. And yes I totally agree on The One Ring, and so does Tolkien. I mean, the whole message of the original IP, unless I'm very much mistaken, pretty much amounts to "Ban The One Ring!"

[@dunstonlion1342]

I definitely agree, and I do think the layer of secrecy was a bad idea. We all knew the Nadu ban was coming and they even mentioned the likely hood of it being banned in advance. If they had at least talked about these other cards being on the radar, people wouldn't have been SO blindsided and potentially less upset. Maybe.

[@dreamwalking]

I completely disagree. I've not known a single case where a card actively on the ban list was accepted during a rule zero conversation. It's different if the cards aren't actually on the list, like silver-bordered cards, but unless a group of people actively decide to build with banned cards I've never known them to see play. Agreeing _not_ to play cards on the other hand quite frequently happens without even having a rule 0 discussion. First off, price: a lot of people can't afford stuff like Gsea's Cradle, and would feel guilty proxying them. And then second off a lot of players realize that high power isn't the experience they're looking for, and so players will commonly exclude the upper echelon of legal cards during the deckbuilding process.

[@skyscapegamingllc8154]

Never been an investor. Just played for fun. I rule zero with friends. Just have fun and play the cards that you want to.

[@theandyizzyshow]

I allow banned cards in my play group so long as you voice it. In fact we allow a sideboard of 10 cards just for cards like Karn.

[@skyscapegamingllc8154]

@theandyizzyshow Sweet. And yeah, that's the appeal of Commander to me. I like shows like "I Hate Your Deck", where they can talk with friends about what auto wins they put in their decks, and what cards they leave out just because. It's all for fun to me. I just like having the real cards instead of paper proxies because I enjoy the authentic shinies.

[@theandyizzyshow]

@@skyscapegamingllc8154I personally do not like fast mana. It feels bad to see a mana crypt played in a casual play group. However I feel like when it comes to bans of this magnitude it should’ve been stated BEFORE it happened to obtain the voice of the players and give them time to cope with the ban incoming, either by selling the cards or putting it in their binder.

[@skyscapegamingllc8154]

@theandyizzyshow That is true. For me, I built my Commander Collection around fast mana. It's a bit of a hot take, but I got into Commander because I fell in love with Eldrazi from Oath of the Gatewatch. I couldn't have enough of them! But, when I learned about set rotation in Standard, I threw a fit. I wanted to play with the cards I bought and enjoyed the most. So, I see Commander as a fun way to utilize that collection. And I like seeing Eldrazi play at their highest possible power level. That being said, my restriction is pure colorless. I'm not playing Azlask or Ulalek. I'm going Zhulodok or Kozilek. Maybe Emrakul or Kozilek if I'm feeling Fancy. Lol. But I like the fast mana for that deck. I don't really like playing a 7 mana value card on turn 7. I like the ramp for my playstyle. EDIT: I meant Ulamog. Not Kozilek twice. Lol

[@migarsormr5561]

I am a casual player and collector, I am so happy I sold my dockside and jewel lotus. Cause It is understandable why people would be very pissed at the value they just lost.

[@Setzer]

Here's the thing. Once you decide that the format is better off without jeweled lotus and mana crypt, which Josh even basically admits, the hit to these card's values is inevitable. I don't really see how them slow rolling the bans would help anything. It lets you do what exactly? Predict the trend and sell overpriced cards to a bigger sucker before the ban happens and value drops? It also just further increases the likelihood of insider trader shenanigans the longer that window is. At the end of the day or the three year rollout period, these cards will lose value and people will feel screwed. But lets talk about why these cards had high values to begin with. Price is mainly a factor of the card's power and its availability. The reason Mana Crypt was $200 and Sol Ring has stayed around 1-2 dollars is because of availability. Sol Ring is reprinted in every single precon and if the same were true for Mana Crypt then it would be similarly priced and vice versa. The high price for Mana Crypt is a sign that the card is very powerful and inaccessible to most players. The fact that both of those are true is what makes it ban worthy. It's all fine and dandy if you want to spend hundreds on a raised foil print of a card, but having power locked behind that kind of price is bad for the game. They mentioned the percentage of dollar value that this affects but what about the percentage of players. It's a change that affects a pretty small percentage of the player base. Finally i think its objectively easier to rule 0 in these banned cards with your high power table than it is to expect people to rule 0 out the cards. It might be similarly easy for pods to go either way, but sitting down at your LGS with some random people it's simply not.

[@rakino4418]

This. "Gameplay will be better." Period, fullstop, stop talking.

[@patrickmorrisoconnor5419]

Fair point. A "slow ban" just sticks it to players who don't bother to follow the game like sports fans but just play and then go and live their lives.

[@bohneneintopf]

Exactly, at the end it is a zero sum game. Once the ban is decided, some one has to take the loss. So speed does not matter. In fact, I think that is the reason why they have been so secretive about it is to prevent any insider trading, even not trusting the advisory group. In the end gameplay is what keeps the game alive. And thinking in monetary value is very short sighted

[@rodgerlang884]

@@rakino4418 Then it would also be better without Sol Ring...and Mana Vault....and 2 mana land search cards....and, and, and. The game is inherently broken and that's the crux of this issue. All this did was make green decks even better and made high cost janky commanders that much harder to play...

[@Jach93]

Watchlist into slow bans for some of these cards would have still been better imo. Yeah you’ll get people getting scammed and wasting money but that ultimately happens anyway when you ban such important cards all at once out of nowhere. The value was still lost and the player had no idea it would be. At least with the slow ban more players would have time to prepare and accept it.

[@jeremymorris6000]

"the everything else feel bads" is just a round about way of saying money. These are game pieces or collectibles, not meant to be financial vehicles. If you see your cards as money then you either need to accept the risk of wrapping up your financial value in a volatile, unregulated market that is subject to the whims of the printers of a GAME, or move your money into less risky markets. If you want to own these game pieces don't fool yourself by saying it's an "investment" when you buy a card. It isn't. It's just a toy that you wanted.

[@luketfer]

Yeah I've noticed a LOT of the upset seems to come from MTG Finance people who are 'left holding the bag' on stock that is now quickly crashing in value.

[@LinnyFlow]

A friend of mine really wanted a Jeweled Lotus but could never afford one. He managed to find about $90 worth of trades to trade for one, which included about 20 cards, had to break down a deck for its shock lands and nice spells to bling out a deck he loved for the Lotus. It was never an investment, he was just playing the game as you said and viewed it as a fun way to get the cards he wanted. Then they ban lotus. He didn't end up blinging the deck because the card is banned. And most importantly, he lost 20 really good fun cards he opened in drafts and collected over the years and have no way to recoup the cards back because the lotus is now worth like a third of what it is used to. Everyone like you who claims that everyone who is upset at the financial aspect of this ban is so tone deaf and assume that every who is mad at the financial aspect are just in it for the "investment". I completely agree with the bannings and I had an authentic Mana Crypt, but I think everyone who had these cards still have a right to be upset and voice it.

[@natebeal18]

This is an L take. It's an investment whether you like it or not. A $200 card is $200 it's an investment unless you are like rolling in money.

[@jeremymorris6000]

@@natebeal18 you don't know what investment means then. An investment is something purchased with the expectation or at least hope to receive a financial return on the investment. Magic cards are a financial liability. While there is a minority in the economy of magic that can make a profit, the majority of people who buy cards, and the majority of cards overall, will have a lower value over time.

[@jeremymorris6000]

@@LinnyFlow I don't think that people who are upset about the financial impact are only in it for investment. I may have given that impression but it isn't how I feel. But I do think people will be too optimistic about the financial aspect of their cards to justify spending more than they ought to, or trading into a position where they are exposed to losing more than they are willing to lose. Edit: and I do have empathy for your friend and all of mine who have been affected by the ban. I just also see an opportunity to help people learn from this and shape a more healthy relationship with the game so they don't get hurt in the future.

[@jnuty85]

I think the biggest feels bad come from the fact that the RC waited too long. By waiting you give silent endorsement that what ppl are doing is fine. If they were actively managing it by baning things unbanning thing putting things on and off the watch list it. The reason ppl get less mad about other formats being banned is because their actively being balanced. If you just sit back and do nothing while free spells and fast manna are being printed and pushed and then just whip out the ban hammer from the top rope! Ppl are gonna be pissed

[@apharys8921]

This. No bans for years, all these cards legal for years, then all banned one day out of the blue with zero warning. Should have started with just Nadu because it's obviously a terribly designed card then mention future bans, maybe talk about the problem with fast mana and slowly ban one card at a time over a couple years or so.

[@RAMPettersen]

@@apharys8921 or at least do the Bandai deal and announce their imminent demise with a date to give time for goodbyes. But yeah, 3 years updating with blank boxes to then "try" to be responsible, it's not a joke one'd like to hear

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

its not exactly their fault that they said they would wait to see how these pieces effect the game (not counting crypt that is the only one you can claim is a shock) and then they did exactly what they said they would do. and yet people just acted like that means they were never gonna ban them.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@RAMPettersen the point of doing it quickly and without prior announcement is to minimize scalpers using this to make a buck. which is also why they should never give any warning at all.

[@joshuabarnett88]

38:09 and that reserve list is genuinely terrible for the game. It forces insane value to remain insane and often with cards that don't warrant THAT much value.

[@cre8rzaw]

But that is why proxy cards are almost always an acceptable alternative.

[@keithwynn8390]

@joshuabarnett88 With 2024 eyes, yes, but back then it was quite a bit different.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

@@cre8rzaw You can't proxy in vintage and legacy

[@mathewdebol923]

@@Arctanis-vt3hldepends on the tournament venue. The tournaments we used to have around me where 10-15 proxies were allowed

[@alfascorpi]

Glancing at Pokemon…

[@cameronhunt8498]

About these not being common at a causal night LGS, I bought a pre-con put $20 dollars into it and I went to my LGS for my very first actual game. I was randomly assigned a pod introduced myself let them know it was my first game. A couple switched decks and one guy (player A) said this was is lowest power deck. Both player A and B dropped mana crypt. Player A went on to play Jeweled lotus, dockside, and a Candelabra of Tawnos. I estimate his deck was over 2k value. I have never been back to a LGS to play since.

[@nathand6467]

I havent seen a Candelabra, but I have seen basically this happen,.. in fact in 50% of my games at my LGS a player at about your experience level it up against decks like this. The format has been power crept, there is a large gulf between some of these decks. Theres room for both, but theres not room for both to have a balanced game against each other.

[@deathscythe8933]

This was the exact problem that the ban fixed and is the “average” experience for most players that are not investing

[@dewrules235]

Yugioh and Pokemon have been around for ages without relevant game pieces being absurd prices. Magic should have done First Edition printings and then reprints get printed into the dirt. People hold on to the First Edition prints for value and everyone else gets to actually play the game with everything reasonably available.

[@Imanmagnet00]

Yugioh had Crush card virus back when it was a prize as one of the absurdly priced ones. Eventually reprinted and power crept, but the original prize ones still retain their value. That said yugioh gets bans and limits constantly and it's business as usual, Magic players have been spoiled by the inaction

[@dhantefranklin336]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@TheEvolver311]

Pokemon cards on the secondary market are cheap because most the people who buy them are collecting and dump their bulk into the secondary market. I have the pokemon digital client, i have a playset of every card legal in their standard. I've never spent s penny, my co-worker collects cards takes the 1 full art waifu every 5 or so packs and just gives me the whole rest of the pack. I keep the digital pack card and give the physical cards away to the Pokemon playing kids at the LGS. My coworker was shocked he had never met a person who actually knows how to play the game. Magic doesn't have a beloved anime/video game IP to elevate the sale of packs the way Pokemon and Yugioh can and do exactly because they both have very large non-player collectors dumping cards onto the secondary Market. And keep in mind pokemon packs are about $6.50-7, that is more expensive than a standard magic booster.

[@JEL625]

...pokemon yes, but yugioh is notorious for making chase cards upwards of $100 almost annually if not multiple times a year. Then their prices crash due to konami's agressive annual reprint cycle or due to being hit in the ban list. We're quite numb to the pain. We dump cards immediately after using them and avoid picking up cards we dont intend to use before their inevitable reprint.

[@VVheeli]

Yugioh is not a good example currently. The best decks right now are in the thousands, and the last couple of reprint sets have been exceptionally stingy at giving players good cards, even replacing Super/Ultra Rares (their Mythics) with TOKENS.

[@MrMartinSchou]

I look at these bans, especially of Jeweled Lotus and Dockside Extortionist, as a shot across the bow for Wizards saying "stop making broken cards for commander!"

[@OsmiumHawk]

They banned hullbreacher pretty quickly after its release... They could have banned it then but chose not to.

[@JazzOfTheStinson]

@@MrMartinSchou they should have banned lotus alongside hullbreacher then instead of letting it sit and get reprinted as a chase card for commander masters then.

[@neildoscher9536]

I don't think that's what this is at all. If anything Its sell broken cards in commander and then run away with the bag. Magic as a product is inherently predatory. Fo example, Wotc doesn't use esrb, more than likely because they want to pull as much money from their consumers as possible. This isn't a message of any kind to Wizards. Strong cards sell cards and they'll keep making them. I don't lose any money from these bans because most of my cards aren't even real and I just play with like 3 people, but wotc business practices combined with RC bans make mtg feel like a scam to a lot of people and I can't even really blame them for it, especially since they just reprinted lotus last year

[@Lazerus101]

OMFG yes. The biggest problem with these bans isnt the money (dont get me wrong I sympathise) but they absolutely SHOULD have come sooner.

[@benvictim]

Yeah. Dockside has been "watch list" since hullbreaker. Why did it take 3 additional years?

[@jameskearney5677]

Maybe it is just my area, but I also run into players who don't disclose that they are running these even with a pre-game conversation...

[@papapawpaw8877]

I experienced the same. Extremely unpleasant and as I was just getting back into commander it almost made me walk away again after my first game. I'm glad I didn't.

[@erou321]

yeah that exact situation happened to me at my very first commander game at my lgs, it made me basically give up on trying to play with anyone other than my friends

[@papapawpaw8877]

@@erou321 and I bet you agree with these bans. No offense but people who have been on the receiving side understand these bans. The people with pods that play every week and all use these have forgotten what it's like to be a new or poor player.

[@peterstewart7332]

Literally the very first question I ask during rule 0 "Are you running fast Mana, e.g. Mana crypt or Jeweled Lotus". There's four possibilities there: 1. "Yes, I am." In which case I break out a matching deck. 2. "No, I'm not." and I know not to break out my fast mana decks. 3. "No, I'm not." But they lie. In which case I very clearly call them a liar, then get up and walk away when they play said card. And don't play with them again. 4. "I don't have to answer that." In which case I don't play with them. This is not hard people. Local communities can be self-regulating with an ounce of self-respect and ability to manage conflict. Claiming this is a problem you needed to smash entire segments of the player base over is infuriating. Grow a spine.

[@papapawpaw8877]

@@peterstewart7332 yeah when I only have enough time for one random game at my FNM and they are randomly matched my options are play that week or don't. Luckily I have a pod that gathers now but before I met them that was my option. Play or pray. Most official shops use the app for that stuff and it's randomized. That who this is targeted towards. Those people who go to FNM alone with no pod of their own yet. Not your group who plays 3 times a week and slowly adjusted to a shared power or the guy going to a shop for a whole day to play commander.

[@isaacallen563]

Mana crypt, dockside, and jeweled lotus ballooned insanely high in price because WOTC simply refused to reprint them to keep their value high. It was a self-feeding cycle where WOTC (or should I say Hasbro) always had some crazy bombshell reprint in their pockets to entice people to buy new product. It makes sense for a collectible card game to have game pieces that are worth money, but artificially inflating prices of cards by refusing to reprint things is only ever going to end in disaster. I'm sorry to see that people are losing a lot of money after these bans, but I personally believe that these cards never should have reached the price tag they did in the first place.

[@captiannemo1587]

Nailed it. Lack of reprints.

[@VreskHyena]

That Jimmy Kramer bit is so good lmfao

[@alexandersaleh3331]

The joke they're making is selling all their high $ cards before the announcement.

[@davidbilich1708]

​@alexandersaleh3331 the joke they are making is Jim Cramer with mad money.

[@khadorstrong]

definitely the Jimmy Cringe section

[@dv6778]

"I have lost 2000 followers, WHOOPS!" Got me 😂

[@JaydonTobler]

The delivery of “On to Reddit. And what did we expect? It’s Reddit they HATE IT. That’s why we’re gonna close with website and NEVER USE IT AGAIN” absolutely sent me

[@elivaughn4763]

The bans made me realize I had spent too much money on magic. I worked hard to get my mana crypts. Fool me once, thats shame on me.

[@fargoretro]

Yeah thats the real take away

[@elivaughn4763]

​@@fargoretroas someone else said, it was a blessing in disguise. I used to save up and buy a box of masters when it came out, now I have no motivation to do so and it's a good feeling

[@arenkai]

I proxy everything over $10 No card should cost more than that...

[@theundergrad5994]

Yes that was definitely your fault that you wanted to buy something nice for yourself. I was thinking about buying a better baseball bat but I said nahh shame on me for wanting something nice that helps me improve my game.

[@rustlingclock0234]

Fr, I finally get in a spot in my life where I can buy these cards a year later, and they get banned. I'm not cedh. I just try and keep up with my play group, but this....its hard to describe.

[@Sheridan25]

imo, an important argument for pro banning is missing. There's a huge influx of new players coming to the format. The existance of the 3 fast mana cards is a huge barrier of entrance for these people. Trust me, I regulate a big playgroup and we welcome new players all the time. They feel those cards are necessary for them to win. We are talking about like 400€ dollars investment. Even if us the experienced players try to reason agains buying these cards, they do buy them anyway. I think it's very healthy for the format to remove this cards because no other cards have such an impact in the game. They can't be replaced (except by sol ring, which is already in the precon).

[@JimmyR42]

To all those still comparing Mana Crypt to Sol Ring... How many times can you fit 0 in 1 again? And let's not forget the mulligans : "oh no ramp in my hand, mulligan" I wish the mulligan for EDH would take inspiration from the Pokémon TCG and be conditional to the amount of lands in your starting hand, basically only allowing mulligans for 1-2 or 5+ lands in hand. The point of mulligans is to avoid unplayable hands, not to increase the chance of hitting your optimal hand. But people running all the most expensive ramp tools are essentially using mulligans to start with those because their commander is the value engine they want to hit before others can reasonably respond. And they snowball from there unless you play blue with 50$+ counterspells like Force of Will. And no, removals are not equivalent to counterspells unless the rules of the game are changed so that ETB fizzles if its source isn't on the battlefield when it resolves.

[@Vanity0666]

​@@JimmyR42i have tried to explain to people that 0 is quite literally infinitely more value than 1 on a strictly mathematical level but they just call me slurs

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@Vanity0666 no chance did people call you slurs for that but okay.

[@PhysicsGamer]

@@JimmyR42 That's actually a really cool rule. I'll have to suggest it to my playgroup sometime, though frankly that accounts for >99% of mulligans anyway.

[@JohnnyBoy-wi4kn]

Ignore the Banlist! Proxy Everything! Build what you want! Play what you want! Embrace Chaos!

[@kaiwilken5330]

I do agree with being critical about the heavy-handed approach of the bans, however, I also can't help but it's quite hypocrtical to make it so much about the financial losses. If all 4 of these cards were announced to be reprinted as rares in the next 5 sets to come (dumping their price), I'm pretty sure that most people, including JLK and Rachel, would have been happy about it, despite it also wrecking prices. Yes, the RC (and trust me, I'm not their biggest fan) did cause a huge shake up with financial consequences for players and game stores, but that is also because a lot Magic cards are WAY too expensive for what they actually are - and that is on WotC.

[@chizurukanae]

but the main point is RC should have handled it better

[@mindhackz]

36:15 that's one of the cards. The majority of these cards were released in the last 4 years

[@nathand6467]

And thats the problem with the point he makes at 29:16. If you ban them one at a time, by the time you Ban Jeweled Lotus, two more Dockside or Nadu like cards have been printed. Maybe a ban like this will temper some of Wizards design so they print fewer cards that are busted off the handle auto includes (if you can afford them), cards for EDH.

[@IronWilliam]

@@nathand6467 Yes. Something I think Nadu being banned in the same fell swoop should really exemplify. If the bans were heavy handed, it's in response to equally heavy handed game design from WotC over the last five to ten years designing cards made for commander.

[@nathanoys7474]

And these products came out once wotc saw commander as a cash cow, when it was made as a casual format to be played at a kitchen table

[@berryjon]

The worst part about these bannings is that my Horobi, Death's Wail deck has lost its favourite prey, Nadu.

[@andriipolishchuk6806]

Nice one bro 🤣

[@berryjon]

Horobi was first built to prey on Ivy, Spellthief decks, and with a little adjustment, it worked perfectly against Nadu as well.

[@Zottelkopf115]

You make it seem like they banned all fast mana. Your rich friends will still be able to play powerful decks.

[@paulszki]

I have a jeweled lotus (won in a draft). Honestly don't really care about the bans because I only play with friends. I'm sure in the right deck they'll still let me use it. And with that I mean some jank deck with a super expensive commander. I bought a Mana Drain a couple years ago and still haven't put it into any of my decks. No idea why I thought I needed that card to have fun with magic.

[@theandyizzyshow]

@@paulszkiI bought Mana Drain for my Yennett deck. I see it 1/15 games maybe. If it was banned tomorrow I’d still play it with friends if allowed. But I’d never think “Oh I just lost $80 worth of value.” I’d think “Damn, I guess I gotta rule 0 this.” With a selection of other cards ready to switch it out with.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

Honestly, these announcements have restored some faith of mine in the Rules Committee. Yes, it sucks that people lost a lot of money, but I am emphatically in favor of these changes and honestly wish they had gone harder.

[@bobby45825]

That's my biggest gripe is the inconsistency. Sol ring, Cabal coffers, Gaea's cradle.....why didn't they go after EVERY offender? Why just those 3?

[@6ixpool520]

@@bobby45825 The banned cards needed zero setup and were most abusable. Sol ring is a mascot, coffers is a 2 cards combo, cradle needs even more setup. Also, the thing they tried to ban was fast mana, not big mana.

[@DevineAbyss]

@@bobby45825 Sol ring is kept in as the mascot. None of the other cards you mentioned do much turn 1 or 2. And fast mana decks are already exploding turn 2.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

@@6ixpool520 Coffers I'm okay with. Cradle I think could go either way IMO. Sol Ring needs to go, and I don't care one bit about its iconography.

[@bobby45825]

@@DevineAbyss The problem is the context. At a Cedh table, you're absolutely right. At a regular EDH table, Sol ring is indistinguishable from the other 2 for the most part.

[@DanielSolis]

This sounds like how a Fed chair has to telegraph upcoming changes to interest rates so they don't disrupt the economy with a severe shock. By the time a rate change takes effect, it's been mentioned for long enough that markets have already priced around that anticipated change.

[@alecmullaney7957]

...there are toys were talking about

[@mathewdebol923]

@@alecmullaney7957 doesn’t matter. It’s intellectually dishonest to pretend like MtG doesn’t have a large financial aspect to it

[@JEL625]

As a yugioh player this really feels like the meme. "First time?" Its an annual occurance in yugioh for cards to lose most if not all of their value due to bans or reprints.

[@Zavult]

I always tell the sweaty whales that show up at my LGS from time to time that if you wanna play a super expensive game were everyone wombo combos into a turn 1-2 or 3 win then F*%$ off and go play yugioh.

[@themonadnomad]

I thought we were better than that though...

[@biggreenscott]

That's precisely why I quit playing Yugioh.

[@Cybertech134]

@@themonadnomad Humbling, isn't it?

[@TheGrifcannon22]

​@Zavult what a toxic mentality. If you don't like the way others play the game, don't play with them but to have such a mentality as yours is what really hurts the community.

[@JC_Hope]

EDIT: It’s come to my attention that Rachel was contrasting how players will discuss things like Mana Crypt and Dockside from those who don’t. This was not a tone deaf comment. My apologies to Rachel. She’s definitely one of the most awesome figures in MtG. I normally agree with Rachel but at 23:57 when she says “Everybody has a mana crypt of dockside” seems super tone deaf and out of touch with regular players who aren’t as invested as the MtG content creators. It’s just like when Josh once said “Who hasn’t died to their own mana crypt?” It was the ET episode where Mr Infect died to his own MC. Mana crypt and Dockside is super rare to see in casual play at a typical LGS because of their rarity and pricing. It’s not normal! JLK and Rachel have amazing, seasoned insights into the format but it would be nice to see them mingle more with regular folks to expand their perspectives on the reality of who is gaming and what they have. Certain tone-deaf comments like that irk me. Other than that, great deep dive into the bans and I don’t envy all the underserved hate that the CZ is getting from pissed off players.

[@lightworker2956]

Yeah, it's the classic problem that happens in many games where the discussion is dominated by the most invested and most hardcore players, who in turn are surrounded by hardcore and super-invested players. And hence the voice of the most hardcore 1% is amplified several times over, while the silent majority of casuals is barely heard.

[@Blakkichan151]

This is exactly how I felt too. My playgroup doesn't play any of these cards because none of us have the disposable income to be spending hundreds on one single card. I love the channel but they often come from a perspective that doesn't really represent the games of Commander I play and it really stands out more in this video.

[@matthewtaylor6829]

She was being ironic when she said that. She was mimicking someone who is highly enfranchised and doesn't communicate well. Watch that part again.

[@JC_Hope]

@@matthewtaylor6829I did. Thanks. There wasn’t much change in tone so it was hard to tell that she was trying to contrast between the two types of players who talk differently. This actually makes more sense because Rachel seems to be the most aware and considerate of more casual players. She continues to be awesome. 😎

[@XiFraMe]

So if you rarely see these cards in casual play at a typical lgs as you said, why ban them anyways? I own one copy of each of those cards, bought them over a good amount of time bcs i wanted to build a cedh deck without proxys and im still far away from that. I never played any of these cards in casual rounds with my friends bc why would i, i wanna have fun with them and dont wanna pub stomp them. So these cards are imo no problem in any way if people would just have an actual pregame discussion about their decks powerlevel. If someone in your lgs continuously keeps pubstomping with these cards just dont play with them. As far as i can tell you people can still pubstomp your lgs with these bans or without, so the problem persists that people actually need to talk about their decks powerlevel in order to have a fun game. If people are actively try scam people in this conversation and continue to pubstomp people thats on them. JUST DONT PLAY WITH THEM.

[@sashalittledemon6766]

"Everyone has Mana Crypt". No we don't. Maybe in the USA, but not in Europe. Where are you guys getting 200€ to expend on cardboard?

[@darkesch9502]

It is still expensive here in the US, Mana Crypt is an expensive gatekept mana rock.

[@ILikePi31415926535]

We aren't I know literally 1 person with one and he's a net decker always trying to copy the most powerful decks without knowing how to play

[@bobby45825]

My proxies come from china

[@3thhackz531]

Only that one guy who smells like hotdog water

[@pablopandolfo8446]

I OWNED LIKE 10 DOCKSIDES AND 12 LOTUSES ARE YOU KIDDING ME? jk they all costed about 1 cent each, proxy is the way to go.

[@Xcalibur1337]

So if reprints can be a problem, and banning cards can be a problem, you guys think commander should just be a rich guy's club where the more money you have the stronger your decks can be? Everyone talks about "oh no my value" and don't even consider how much new players SAVE money when they aren't required to buy multi hundred dollar cards to play at the level they want to play.

[@Tymbaroth]

You're not REQUIRED to buy those cards. EDH is built upon variance so the impact of any single card is limited. We still have players in our pods playing 50€ decks and winning a fair share of their games. Multiplayer can smoothe out a lot of imbalances between decks. And if you wanted to play cEDH or high-power decks, this is just a drop in the bucket and won't change anything. There are tons of other pricy cards. All this achieves is pissing people off. It's not the end of the world, Commander will survive, but the credibility of the RC has taken a hit, as well as the customer confidence in the game.

[@Xcalibur1337]

@@Tymbaroth oh please, don't be disingenuous and try and argue semantics. If people didn't feel like they needed these cards in the VAST majority of decks their bans wouldn't even be a problem. Multi hundred dollars for a couple cards that can improve 95% of decks was a massive problem for newcomers.

[@Tymbaroth]

@@Xcalibur1337 I am not being disingenuous. I started EDH in 2010 and I played without those cards for years. I bought dockside in 2023. I played my foil Jeweled Lotus for the first time a few weeks ago. My Mana Crypt is in a randomness theme deck where it replaces Sol Ring because of theme. You don't need those cards unless you play cEDH. We also have newcomers in our store and I haven't seen a single one of them say "This deck needs Mana Crypt to win". The discussion is usually about lands and mana base, and classic ramp and removal, and draw engines. Not busted fast mana pieces.

[@Xcalibur1337]

@@Tymbaroth Of course decks don't need Mana Crypt to win, no one ever said that. But you can't deny nearly every single deck would be better with those cards in them. The prices reflect that, and I guarantee if all your buddies at your LGS had one they'd use it. Heck, if every precon had a Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus in them nearly everyone would play them in every deck. So let's quit pretending here my man, those cards were the largest and most obvious paywall separating power levels in decks.

[@TravisCloud-t6h]

@@Tymbaroth These cards have very tangible benefits on win rates. Especially if you’re one of the few players without them. The inclusion rates in CEDH are a testament to that. A player hitting a Turn 2 one ring into further fast mana is GG boys, turn 4 one ring is a much more surmountable challenge. Allegorically I play in a very high power casual pod of 8-9 people who all play these cards. These decks are all just about optimized within the goal of the deck. I am the only player who chooses not to run fast mana, because I don’t believe crypt, moxs, dockside make games more fun & because I play a lot of pickup spell table, those cards are often not appropriate in that context. Again allegorically, over the past week my win rate has shot up now the speed of our decks has better parity. Games are all going 2-3 turns longer on average, and getting consistent value and hitting land drops is much more important when players cant fast mana/dockside there way out bad situations or get off to insurmountable non game leads. Multiplayer can smooth out some imbalances between decks. But in a casual setting a player T1 4 drop commandering, or a player abusing dockside to make pseudo infinite mana, is a tall order for even 3 opposing players to claw back from.

[@Tjstell16]

Yeah the financial hit to myself sucks ya but I wasn’t really expecting to sell crypt, Jlotus, and dockside so it just sucks to not being able to play with them since I spent the money. That being said I feel the worse about the LGSs since let’s be honest the profit margins are small to being with so this has to be devastating for these stores especially the smaller stores.

[@papapawpaw8877]

I mean... You always can if you find a playgroup willing to allow them. If your talking about not just being able to throw them into any deck to boost it up for FNM... Yeah it sucks. the rules committee don't punish us for using these cards still

[@SuperDyzack]

​@@papapawpaw8877 the rule 0 conversation isn't going to work in the case off these 3 cards. Only if you bring copy's for the rest of the table aswell so they can put them in there deck. This ban should not haven been done atleast not in the way its been done. But we probably will get new more broken mana crypt jeweled lotus en dockside in the upcomming sets. That is probably the reason why these cards have been banned. So the new sets will sell for these new case cards.

[@109968shadowboy]

Cards that have that kind of value you should not be buying them if you don’t have the disposable income. IMO the cards that are even considered an investment are beta or old ass cards on the reserve list, graded cards, or serialized cards where those are limited and not subject to reprinting. Anything else you shouldn’t buy if you’re afraid to lose the value because WoTC for the past 3-5 years print more cards where rares are fucking worthless.

[@adambajczyk1451]

​@@109968shadowboydid not consider them investments he had no intention to sell them. And every card at lgs has to be considered a investment

[@GallantLee]

Exactly. I don’t care about the “financial loss”, these are game pieces. i want to run a mana crypt in my country flip deck and now it’s that awkward conversation with a pug i have to have. Cards shouldnt need to be banned in a non.competitive format. Furthermore my fear with this banning is the message it sends to the community. I think it’s healthy for people to play against people witb different views and approaches to deck building. None of these cards, except i guess Nadu, produce game states which diminish other player’s involvement/game time.

[@inajar7947]

I'd take Josh's arguments more seriously if this didn't sound like ego. Between this and the debacle earlier this year where he tried to hire skilled workers for below a living wage in La, I've really lost a lot of respect for him this year.

[@alexvergara479]

Source?

[@Logic-cg7qy]

Definitely his ego got hurt, they didn't explicitly consult him; therefore he immediately quits the cag

[@X20Adam]

@@alexvergara479 there might be screenshots floating around online, but it was in a tweet that got swiftly deleted once people started pointing out the money they were offering was ABYSMALLY low for LA.

[@ShyLoo1994]

@@Logic-cg7qythe CAG did NOTHING. And for him to stay after the first ban in 4 years and he wasn’t consulted? Yeah.. useless group. About as useless as the RC

[@matheuscastello6554]

also would appreciate a source on that second point, that sounds awful and i'd like to know more if possible

[@ajaxinxfreedom]

Talking about Cash and Post Malone feels misguided. It's obvious that they DON'T represent the vast majority of the playerbase. I understand that JLK and crew like to advocate for player agency and rule zero conversation but there's a problem with that line of thinking. The fact of the matter(at least on my case) is that the rule 0 conversation isn't enough. I've had a lot of games were i told people that i had a high power deck and they played with their cedh decks anyway.

[@nathanielzumwalt3063]

Well I know as a cedh player I don’t represent the majority of players, of course. But, the fact they took dockside, crypt, lotus, and yet they left thassa’s oracle untouched is what really rubbed salt into the wound, for me. They just made the already dominant and problematic 3 mana Thassa’s combo even more powerful.

[@alexalvaradocali3863]

Just fluster storm the demonic consultation

[@nathanielzumwalt3063]

@@alexalvaradocali3863 you don’t say 😂😂 lmao

[@jeremiahwigton3295]

@@nathanielzumwalt3063 ppl don’t get cedh it’s just not showing up a lot 😂

[@AlphaCitizen]

Thoracle combo is easy to stop, if you're not silenced. Easy A+B combo to put together. But Dockside was a 3 card combo at minimum! (Dock+sac/flicker/bounce+outlet) Doesn't make sense. The banning killed 2 of my 4 cEDH decks and homogenizes the format back to Esper shells. RIP Kenrith the Banhammered King, and fringe Jeska Ikra. RIP Sans blue decks. RIP High CMC and fringe commanders. Back to mid-range hell.

[@jeremiahwigton3295]

@@AlphaCitizen always ways to stop anything I just don’t like the way this will shift the meta of cedh…. I liked the nadu ban. I feel like mana crypt is a staple I’ve been playing with for 12 years hard to not be able to play with anymore. Jewelled lotus sucks but I could get over it if I didn’t trade a decent amount of my binder for a textured at MagicCon. Dockside I thought was fine it usually helped people catch up mid game or got countered anyway in my experience!

[@TheKirashio]

"A candidate for the biggest banning in the history of magic" ... Are you insane? This barely registers on the scale in the history of Magic. They banned Jace the Mind Sculptor in STANDARD, when it was a $200+ dollar 4-of in the best deck in the format. They banned Stoneforge Mystic, a then $30+ 4-of in the very same standard format. They banned pretty much an entire archetype in standard when they got rid of affinity. These bans are for format warping 1-of cards in a singleton casual format that 95%+ of the players of said format don't even own. These bans are *nothing*.

[@TheDocperian]

As someone that bought a playset of Mox Opal to play Hardened Scales only for them to reveal Horizons a week later and have the card banned at the end of the year, I laugh at the people who think this is some massive unprecedented event that no one has suffered anything close to prior. If the card is toxic for the format, get it out of there.

[@jrjamesson]

I think you're kind of just coming up with numbers off the back of your hand without anything to back them up, like how many people play commander vs. standard, how many had these cards vs. those cards, how some cards retained or later regained value because of playability in other formats. in terms of "value incinerated with a single ban announcement" I know JLK isn't the only player deeply ingrained in the game to think this is one of the most significant bans

[@bobby45825]

Also, hilariously, they banned my favorite commander on the last ban list (golos) and he was the #1 most represented commander at that time. Technically they're wrong and Golos actually fits that bill (for commander exclusively, not counting other formats).

[@lightworker2956]

Absolutely. I was thinking about the bans that ended combo winter back in Urza's block.

[@angelojohnson9441]

I think this needs to be said: you guys do such a good job at making the ads the channels own thing, that I do not mind the commercial breaks that you have in Game Knights, so yes I do enjoy the Game Knights ads is what I’m saying. Keep up the good work.

[@dangarvire]

Here it comes

[@dangarvire]

Josh looks understandably upset about the whole situation, and rightfully so. His decision to step down is a brave one that (I believe) the community supports and understands. Hopefully his gesture makes the RC aware of the importance of taking into account the CAG advice

[@neildoscher9536]

​@@dangarvireJosh's take was spot on about the rule 0 conversation. It will always need to exist. It doesn't matter what you ban. The idea that a format as casual as Commander would even need a ban list is somewhat silly and we should just be able to have conversations about these things, and in fact we must.

[@TheChayxxx]

If it is a casual format the only things that should be on the banlist are things that rule 0 isnt working for and are unilaterally destroying games everywhere. The main argument i keep seeing is “magic cards arent for money speculation” but not everyone that this has affected even looks at the cards that way. My point is you can agree with the bans but it doesnt change the fact that other than nadu these cards are not on the same level as something as like prophet of kruphix. The but cards is not money argument is also so out of touch,because considering all the LGS that now have a bunch of product that no one is incentivized to buy anymore, it is first and foremost a financial nightmare for them.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

@@neildoscher9536 I hate rule zero. Other than making sure you're playing similar levels of decks or wanting to play a different variant of commander, it's useless. The banlist lets you know what to play and I don't want to talk to anyone about it when the rules are clear as day.

[@neildoscher9536]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl I think talking about it is unavoidable. 'rule 0' just means healthy conversation. The 'my deck is a 7 and everyone has a different definitions of what 7 is' for example. Commander is an inherently casual and social format. There's also cards that aren't banned but it's sort of a social faux pas to run them if other people aren't running similar cards in the same pod (rhystic for example) And having a more robust or less robust ban list does nothing to stop these conversations whether we want to have them or not and if we don't want to have them, I dunno we should just play standard then.

[@jakeziegler-h9x]

@19:20 if players are using mana crypt lotus and dockside, you are playing Cedh. whether you believe it or not

[@ryanfrieden4450]

This is the proof people needed that show mtg isn’t worth spending your hard earned money on anymore. It’s unavoidable at this point. Just proxy everything and let wotc and it’s affiliates rot.

[@arenfuentes2591]

No matter where you go when there is supply and demand the prices will always be volatile.. same goes as stocks company can lose money anytime guess what you will lose that money. There is no such thing as a non risky investment you just need to risk managment.. im not financial advisor but im studying these stuff coz i will have my own business soon. You cant go out tell people this is not a good financial investment there could be legals you could face if people lose money that can be their possible gains base on your advice

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@arenfuentes2591 cards are not an investment.

[@alonsoboulevard]

this is the second time that i think your opinions so out of touch and it really surprises me that you guys live in bubble, this first one was when you said that wotc sending thugs to a mtg player wasn't a big deal

[@helderboymh]

When did they say that. And why are they out of touch?

[@alonsoboulevard]

watch?v=yyKTuO3f6Zg they also were kind of cool with the nye layoffs soo

[@helderboymh]

@@alonsoboulevard why are they out of touch now ?

[@MossyRiverRock]

This should be a wake up call to the people who spend so much money on cardboard. More acceptance of proxies. Maybe this is more of sociological disconnect but don’t collect for investment, collect for emotional satisfaction. If that piece of cardboard is worth price then sure get it. Or proxy it. Proxies can be handled in the same “Rule 0” conundrum as the cards and power level, silver boarder etc.

[@Srynan]

Tomer put it best, imo, in a recent video: Monetary value aside, it is better for people playing in random pods to have some cards banned. If you want to play banned cards because you enjoy them you can ALWAYS ask if they are fine as long as it is not a sanctioned setting. And for regular playgroups you can even unban them permanently if you want to. So gameplay wise, in the setting of casual commander to me these bans make sense. Talking about the monetary value feels like a double edged sword to me. There are positives and negatives to this decision. For anyone who has had a lot of money "invested" in these cards the negatives probably far outweigh the positives. Losing this much money obviously hurts and feels bad. But the positive lies in exposing a very predatory and greedy mindset behind the way MTG cards are being printed, distributed and bought. Some people view this game and the game pieces as nothing else but an investment. Wizards nows this and has been tiptoeing around the issue of reprints not leading to actually feasible prices for years. The real reason people lost money on these bans is a reprint policy that allows single gamepieces to acrue too much value in the first place. That is my opinion at least. The RC didnt "steal" anyones money. WotC (or more likely, executives at Hasbro) did, by pushing a reprint policy that leads people to treat cards as stocks and making them believe that, even in a NON SANCTIONED FORMAT, these cards will always hold their prices. Which they won't. In the long run, the RC might have done all of us a favour by exposing this behaviour now, not even further down the line.

[@Tymbaroth]

I'd instead advocate for a no-banlist approach, which would FORCE that famous rule 0 discussion. Less work for better results.

[@Srynan]

​@@Tymbaroth People have been advocating for that since forever. Fact is, the very people who even attempt to use these cards as pubstomp enablers in a lower powered pod seem to be aversed to ever participate much less start rule 0 conversations. That is the very reason fast mana is even a problem. It has been stated by lots of people in comments that they feel like this approach doesnt work in an LGS/Command Fest setting. Hence why the RC chose to put that responsibility on those players. I think that makes sense.

[@Tymbaroth]

@@Srynan But with the current situation, I can still go and play at an LGS with a full MLD/stax deck. So what's the point ? We'll still have to discuss anyway.

[@Srynan]

​@@Tymbaroth There have not been fast mana bans on the banlist previous to this (disregarding Black Lotus). So this gives players some weight when arguing against fast mana in general AND leads to people having to expose that they, indeed, intend on trying to find fast mana by any means possible, meaning they run as much of it as they can. This does and did indeed work for things like stax and land destruction which do have cards on the banlist even though there is still a lot of them unbanned. If anything that part of the RCs philosophy is staying intact by allowing sol ring and other fast mana pieces to exist in the format after this banning. Again - I dont say Rule 0 is the answer to everything. But giving players who argue against people who (kind of obviously) try to bully their way into a pubstomp game is a good thing in my opinion. And it might even spark discussions about how people want to play in regular playgroups. My group has decided, about half a year ago, to just "nerf" Sol Ring (taps for 1 mana now) which is the only fast mana we regularly play. That allows us to keep it in decklists for out of group play but decrease the amount of explosive turns in our in group play. It has been an amazing change tbh. And these bans signal that you are encouraged to try such things while simultaniously hinder people from bullying others in less well meaning social circumstances.

[@Tymbaroth]

@@Srynan This won't stop pubstomping, that's a player problem, not a game problem. I can still use tons of other tools besides fast mana if I want to bully. And by maintaining the legality of Sol Ring, fast mana probably won't be seen as the black sheep of Commander.

[@jbwilliamson3471]

Honestly, the financial impact should have nothing to do with your opinion on whether or not it's good for the format. I'm hearing a lot of "financial this" and "money that" from Josh and Rachel in this video.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

it should. they just have the wrong take. banning expensive cards because they are expensive is a good idea actually.

[@SuupurSanicc]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 or, they could reprint it.

[@Kcfd2024]

I do not update my decks often and only play edh a few times a year. Cards like crypt and dockside (also much needed in my mono red deck) help me out to stay closer to the lvl 8-9 power lvl, in the backdrop of rapid power creep. Deciding to stay out for a while now. Thank you josh and Rachel for coming clean. This promptly posted video made me feel a bit better 😊

[@thomasgodfrey5877]

All of these were good bans. The only one I disagree with is crypt as it is such an old card. Dockside, nadu, and jeweled lotus should never have been printed in the first place. People have been expecting a dockside ban for years.

[@RobertWSquirrel]

In response to the discussion of people leaving the game because of instability in the monetary value of cards (with Chronicles given as an example), I just want to register that I completely quit the game years ago because the pandering to collectors over players was getting really gross and unpleasant to me. And hearing that people are issuing death threats over this current situation is really confirming that decision. (I still check in on the news from time to time, because I’ll always be curious about where the game’s going, but I haven’t played since War Of The Spark, and I stopped watching Commander gameplay videos shortly after Commander Legends).

[@pablopandolfo8446]

you quit? i play magic every week and i spend like 0 on it, gather ppl you like to play with and and have fun with proxies.

[@RobertWSquirrel]

@@pablopandolfo8446 I'm genuinely glad that you've found a way to play the game that makes you happy! I would never tell other people to take the same approach as me. But I've been playing Magic on and off since Unlimited / Arabian Nights, and I've lost the patience for dealing with the overpowered nonsense that collector-forward design strategies have been increasingly leading towards. If I had a good group like you do I might feel differently, but friend group is more RPG-centered -- so Magic had to be a side thing for me, which made it much harder to limit the impact of overpowered cards / strategies.

[@davelawrence9100]

The only people I've seen, and I play with a large and varied pool of players irl, that are upset about this are predominantly KZbinrs, or those with the money to buy expensive cards. Banning cards that are $100+ effects only the richest of Magic players. And I'll echo the sentiment in this comments section, the regular player, which are way numerous than the whales of the community, look to this ban as a good thing because the cost of these ridiculous cards push the 'pay to win' aspect to inappropriate heights.

[@dustinfaulkner9760]

Except a lot of people pulled these cards, got them through trades, or saved up for them. You talk like the only people who have these cards are rich people who buy these cards like they're sol rings. You say you play with a "large and varied pool of players", but you clearly do not.

[@PhysicsGamer]

@@dustinfaulkner9760 Not really. None of these cards were very common.

[@jacksonjabba]

It’s been ages since this has popped back on my feed! Glad to see this is still going and curse you KZbin algorithm for hiding this!

[@enso8379]

So the game is better without them, but the ban was bad because of the value of the cards. So let me ask: At what point does a card get expensive enough to dodge a ban in your world?

[@siritachi31]

When only his friend Posty can afford it apparently

[@bobby45825]

UHH, WHEN HIS NFL FRIENDS AND FAMOUS RAPPERS GET UPSET, OBVIOUSLY!

[@Zendrig]

$57

[@AesirFox]

@@siritachi31 just because you’re poor, doesn’t mean every player is.

[@abitofsupport601]

I actively cannot play at my lgs because one guy refuses to play at a lower power level. I died on turn 2 to blightsteel. The following game he had a different deck that looped land destruction each turn until we ran out of basic lands. I've been there 3 different times - and he was always there and always wanted to play. I will now never go to that store and it is the only lgs within an hour and a half drive from me. Rule 0 is nonexistent to people that won't listen.

[@matthewcolosi7606]

I had the same issue for a while. You just have to work up the courage to say “nah, I don’t want to play with you.”

[@piki0126]

Don’t play with him?

[@crackedskullparanormal3514]

The big problem people have is that they pushed these cards recently to sell sets and as soon as those sets were sold they banned them

[@Tymbaroth]

Yes, I want to trust the RC, but this doel feel scummy. I wonder if WotC has been preventing them from banning those cards previously.

[@benjaminguarino1206]

I don't know that those thing are unrelated. The RC is not Wizards, but that these cards were pushed recently, i.e. a whole lot of new copies entered the market, might be what drew the RC's attention into action on them. Consider that you rarely saw Crypt of Lotus in casual play. The cards were too rare and too expensive. They mostly existed in the world of high end CEDH and power play. But a flood of new copies into the play environment might have worried the RC about them in a way they casually ignored them before as new copies would bring these cards into more games and more casual play environments. I.E. Wizards published the cards, and maybe the RC decided to cut the cards out because they weren't just going to be cards you only saw in games where people were playing high power games.

[@Ilnori]

I personally think the easiest thing would have been to just maintain two banlists, one for regular commander and one for cEDH.

[@dannikattt3307]

With them solely focused on the finance aspect, bringing up how these bans affect whales like Post Malone and then JLK resigning really makes sense why the RC did not involve the CAG with this decision.

[@horn_hero]

29:39 counterpoint to the year a piece: that’s way too far apart. Maybe every few months sure, but waiting 3 years for something they could just do all at once is just too long

[@Remulos1]

Also if they did it the way he describes by the time they get around to banning mana crypt it's value would have skyrocketed due to being the best remaining fast mana piece so people would still be just as angry.

[@bobby45825]

@@Remulos1 Whoa buddy, but what about if he gets into a car accident and tells his wife to sell his magic cards to some goof ball?!

[@solarslacker]

The argument that "These playing cards are no longer viable to sell for quick cash in case I need medical aid" is wild to me. Like is the health care system in the US really that messed up that you need to have playing cards, essentially toys, as a backup plan?

[@darkesch9502]

Healthcare in the US is that messed up, but people shouldn't be putting "investment" with cards. There is still collecting which is good but "investing" is different and has a known risk.

[@smallersmalley]

Yeah, and it used to be way worse :/

[@BagAccount]

The trust the players had in the RC crumbles with every resignation of a CAG member. Wild to me that they went through with the choices they've made. Not only the ban, but the blindsiding of the entire commander community. It truly saddens me that it had to come to this. We will miss the voices of reason of the CAG members and I can't do anything but offer my gratitude for how well you've served the community. Thank you.

[@PhysicsGamer]

These had to be blindsides. If they weren't then everyone with a pile of these cards would immediately have started dumping them the moment they realized, long before people who don't follow MtG news.

[@dylanmcla]

I understand that it's important to bring up the financial impact in an effort to empathize with those who lost money, but I am rather disappointed that a majority of the conversation seemed to revolve around this one point. It honestly felt odd because if we want to keep talking about people effected by this ban, people who have 2000 dollars invested in these cards are for sure a minority of this community. While I think it's good we bring in all view points, it does feel like we are letting the vocal minority steer this conversation.

[@jonholston1080]

Luckily there's an easy solution to derisking the purchase of expensive cards that may be crashed arbitrarily by random people: PROXY, people. And it has the added benefit of impacting a sh**** company's profit margin.

[@rakino4418]

Correct. If a card costs more than $20 I'm not chasing it, I'll just run a proxy.

[@ryanstewart5727]

You can get a complete play set of dual land from one pack of Hewlett Packard Masters.

[@mcmillanjustin903]

Man y'all got me into commander I love this channel.

[@eon2330]

Fast mana's main issue is if it's rare. 1. It completely takes hold of the game early. If its Common. 1. People build entirely around it/shutting it down making the FIRST player drop grand arbiter Augustine first and then lock down with Rhystic and seedborne muse. Good luck against that. As for red decks. Red decks are REALLY only viable when spamming rituals and spell slinging combo cascade into X spells etc. Dockside isn't the DRIVING factor of it, but it was the card that allowed you to not need 5 different casts on 1 turn to get the wheels turning. Red decks that abused dockside, also tended to abuse Lion's Eye Diamond and Under World Breach.

[@CRIMS0N_KING]

This is so needlessly dramatic

[@bobby45825]

The fact that an "advisory committee" exists also falls into that boat. The game is complex but not THAT complex. Also, can't the RC just watch commander games online and come to their own conclusions or ask other groups about specific cards and the end result? It's a children's card game; not a government office lol

[@andresmarini5044]

@@bobby45825 That thousands, if not millions of people play. There are government offices (especially local) that oversee less people than that

[@machtus]

​@@bobby45825a lot of the advisory group and rules comittee is made up of the people that make those videos tho, its so people have a list of people they can go to for an inside look on decision making

[@riznix9237]

​@@bobby45825 Pokemon is a children's card game. MTG is entirely catered towards adults. I get your point, and you are correct on the bureaucracy issues being ridiculous

[@AesirFox]

@@bobby45825😂 mtg is in no way a children’s card game. Most kids cannot even properly grasp a small portion of the rules.

[@IgnoreThisCommentBro]

Jeweled lotus was just as much a mistake as Nadu...Change my mind 😂

[@peterstewart7332]

Sure. Jeweled Lotus is a 1 off ritual that allows the casting of only a single card in your deck. It's trading a card for 1 time 3 mana in a single color. This meant is was disproportionatelly valuable in casting higher CMC commanders, especially those with lots of color pips. Many of those are older cards that would otherwise have been not inconsiderably power crept by things like cheap CMC value engine partner pairings and the increasingly low CMCs of many newer card designs (as well as proliferation of ward). If you cast Lotus to get your commander out and ran into a Fierce Guardianship, or a Counterspell, or a Path to Exile, or a Swords to Plowshares, or any number of cheap removal pieces it actually put you behind. It was a card with a significant upside, but which concentrated that value most around high CMCs. In contrast, Nadu was a non-deterministic engine that generated extremely long turns and generated frequent misplays and confused boardstates, produced large amounts of value every turn, and typically created value even if immediately removed on a cheap CMC commander. It was basically the Golos problem all over again, where the act of removing someone's Nadu, even if they had gotten zero value thus far, provided them with either ramp or card draw. At higher level tables (all the way to cEDH) it was a ridiculous value engine that still took extremely long, complex, technically demanding turns. But unlike Lotus, which was a one off ritual that might put you ahead, Nadu was an engine that typically generated unbelivable value. Lands entering untapped, card draw that wasn't even drawing cards (and thus got around card draw hate effects like Narset, Bowmasters, or Sphinx) on a very cheap body that provided the same effect to every one of your creatures in value colors was a problem. It twas a commander that ran away with games even when you were actively playing interaction. And again, I have to harp on the long, complex, tedious, and frequently misplayed turn aspect here. One of these cards let someone get off to a fast start sometimes with their high CMC commander. The other disrupted play both technically and socially. Of the four cards banned, Lotus was probably the least powerful by a significant margin in most situtations. That doesn't mean it should have been printed, but its impact is widely overblown by casual players that neither have one nor regularly play with it.

[@Mecal00]

Agree. I like the concept: Black Lotus, but only for Commander. But it just doesn't work, it's so stinking powerful.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

based name megmin

[@benkse2010]

I am here after the RC just said they are relinquishing their ownership of the committee and giving ownership to WOTC.. Now what y'all think of them apples!?

[@AesirFox]

Good. Their decision to ban 4 cards at once was a terrible one. It’s literally opened the flood gates for people calling to ban a time more cards simply because they don’t like to play against them.

[@PatternBlue]

A week later, it's worth noting that none of these cards actually dropped to $0 for even one second. Jeweled Lotus is arguably unplayable now and dropped about 50% (according to TCG Player) and is already starting to rebound. I understand it's still a significant financial hit, and I'm sympathetic to that, but I think it's unfair to try to assess the collective loss at full value and say "I can't sell this card to pay my medical bills" or "I might as well throw it away." If you're in a true pinch, these are still very much cards you'll list to sell.

[@sandytolar8285]

would the bans be a problem if wotc printed these cards in the commander precons? and there value was $1.00? i dont think.

[@Vanity0666]

It would be a huge problem if they were printed in precons but if Mana Crypt and Sol Ring were equally printed and valued it would be a total nonissue

[@Rednightart]

I think this ban, especially dockside, was inevitable. The power level difference in any deck and that exact same deck with the crypt and lotus was far too high. The fact that they were expensive only made that problem worse. If all of these cards (omit Nadu) could be bought at a similar price point to sol ring, people would complain about a lack of build variety more than a problem in power level. The next time I go to my LGS, I'll know I won't have a game get taken by someone who decided 2 pieces of cardboard were worth 200 or more bucks. The power ceiling has dropped and this is a good thing. A second note I wanted to make is in specific reply to what Rachel said about if everyone had these kinds of fast mana cards. Essentially saying that if everyone has fast mana, no one does. The huge flaw that she willingly ignores about her arguement there is that this is still a singleton format with decks of 100. In the scenario she puts forth, games would only be more regularly unbalanced to whichever player drew their crypt or lotus or dockside. Now, this is still true of other cards, most notably Sol Ring. However, the remaining cards are all slower, worse, and more situational. They have to fit into a build (not Sol Ring, obviously), while these 3 cards didn't. Nadu, I think is the odd ban out here. He's just an extremely strong commander, but who cares honestly? There's still Kinnan and the others like Nadu. Either way, I have no love for the card, so I have no issue with its ban.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

The specific problem with Nadu isn't so much that he's extremely strong, it's that he's extremely strong in a non-deterministic way. This means that there's no shortcut "X leads into Y, which leads to I win", just "If X turns out to Y, B amount of times before C happens _then_ I win." which can take 20-30 minutes to go through the steps, making sure none of the fiddly tracking is missed. It's the same problem that every other format has with him. He's just an extremely powerful card that wastes everyone's time.

[@alexalvaradocali3863]

If Nadu had the lands not come in at all, and instead just were drawn, no one would care. Plus they weren't even drawn, added to hand instead. I mean who thought that was a good idea to make a far superior version of thrassios when thrassios is already a strong commander?

[@felipezarco9502]

The argument that the price of these mana rocks being too high, is nonsense. If this was the case they could've just reprinted those cards more or lower its rarity.

[@anythingyoucandoicandobett6586]

gotta be honest, saying you now have to replace 3 cards in a 100 card singleton format is a difficult thing to do is wild. no its not. you will barely notice them.

[@Shiek200]

I swapped to proxies about a year ago, and I've never felt better about that decision than right now. This has convinced me that spending as little money as humanly possible on this game is objectively the right decision. previously the only real downside to proxies was showing up to a table with a proxied mana crypt and having people get upset that you proxied such an expensive and powerful card. Well... that's not a problem anymore.

[@crss29]

Proxies Between this and the Monty Python Secret Lair debacle, I have remembered that these are worthless pieces of cardboard. I will never again pay more than $0.50 for a card. I will just proxy anything that costs more than that.

[@subtleknife1]

If everyone did this wouldn’t the game die because stores and online vendors cease to have a business model?

[@jackcois6077]

CEDH, cant use proxies. Ban is good but annoying, should of been done long ago and more should of been banned like sol ring and rhystic.

[@HejC8xmRICWgUCj1dhPvhTFX]

@@jackcois6077 Just to get this straight, there's others I've read in this comment section saying CEDH is " *very* proxy friendly". So I take it it's a case by case basis depending on the pod/lgs you're playing?

[@thechestrockfield]

@@HejC8xmRICWgUCj1dhPvhTFX I think they mean sanctioned.

[@thechestrockfield]

@@subtleknife1 Thank you! Yes, these people don't understand what they're asking for. Not all cards can be cheap.

[@hearmth6618]

23:56 No, not everybody, lol 🪦👺

[@devinmckernan4068]

I've been playing EDH/Commander since its inception and I've never owned any of the banned cards because my playgroup has always prioritized fun, casual gameplay. I think the idea that this banning impacts a large number of people is ridiculous. Social media outrage is representative of a minority. Most people do not have these cards. The banning helps in all the situations where people play together, but don't know each other and this is for the best.

[@jrjamesson]

but do you really think your playgroup's fun would have been ruined by someone playing one of these cards? You allow sol ring, right? Do you allow combos? Of all the un-fun cards legal in commander, are three fast mana options really topping the list?

[@nathanoys7474]

@@jrjamessonfast mana has been a huge annoyance for me in edh. I started playing to build with extra cards in a casual format. And now there’s too many products to keep up with, and the power level keeps getting pushed. The comment was referring that the people on KZbin who rant are not a representative of the group of friends that meets at a house for commander and some drinks. In my opinion magic is just trying to do what Pokémon is with how money focused it is

[@HuxtableK]

@@jrjamesson Sol Ring isn't as bad as Mana Crypt though. Or the other cards.

[@CrimsonThunderSB]

​@HuxtableK that's because mana crypt is literally a zero cost artifact that is too fast and it makes games go too short. All the fast mana cards were never fun to go up against as someone who us just trying to have fun over actually invest. Not everybody has a ton of money to throw around these days over something that's not meant to be taken too seriously

[@CrimsonThunderSB]

How do you know it's a minority? If it is why is there so many people that are outraged about losing thousands of dollars in value of cards they have

[@TheRyanUnser]

Thanks for this vid! Refreshing to hear some level headed analysis of complicated situation.

[@l4l01234]

34:15 saying the quiet part loud. You don’t care about the gameplay, you care about reselling cards. Get real, this is not a 401K. And they wonder why the RC didn’t ask their permission to ban these cards lol. It’s exactly because of this; because you care more about protecting your “investment” than the actual game.

[@calebbrown1068]

Hoo boy.

[@drbloo1905]

I know I'm yelling into the void, but the financial argument you guys are putting out there is hilarious and completely detached from reality. A, no vendor is going to stop selling MTG products because a couple of cards got banned in commander. It is completely absurd that you would even think that. B, these cards are pieces of cardboard for a game, not invest pieces or stocks. If you can not comfortably lose $200 dollars, then you should not be buying a $200 piece of cardboard. Go buy a printer instead. C, The idea that someone in an emergency situation might have a few hundred dollars less at their disposal should be factored in when considering banning a card is so ridiculous that it isn't even worth explaining how dumb of an idea that is. Opening packs of magic cars is already a form of degenerate gambling, and yet people buy entire boxes all the time hoping to get a big hit. A card suddenly dropping in value for any reason is no different than whiffing on a collector booster box. The price of magic cards has always been volatile, especially in commander, because of reprints and new cards interacting with old cards. There is not a single magic player on this planet that does not know that. To get outraged because a $200 card is now worth $100 dollars because of a ban is just silly. That being said, CEDH and EDH should have separate ban lists.

[@project_swift]

There is reason to not trust the CAG. There was clear evidence of insider trading when the rules change caused by Olivia happened. There was about 100 Hapatra's purchased from Card Kingdom 5 days prior to the rules change, and then an equal amount put up for sale following the rules change.

[@pidgeotroll]

I’m glad this guy stepped down because if he doesn’t understand why “Black Lotus for commander” is toxic then he’s not going to be making good decisions for the format.

[@-Sparagmos-]

Why would I ever buy any expensive MTG card again when people can just nuke the value out of nowhere? I’m proxying every card like that from now on.

[@garryhewitt1053]

But that has always been the case. WotC can mass print at any time. Cards can be banned at any time. This is just the biggest single instance it has happened since the instigation of the Reserve List, something that ONLY benefits collectors and is widely considered a bad thing for Players.

[@HuxtableK]

That's how it's always been, bud. Look at how Wizards reprints cards that drop the value of a big card by some 9x or so.

[@coolbyrne]

If these cards were $10, no one would bat an eye. If and when the ban hammer comes down on Sol Ring, there won't be nearly the same amount of 'discourse'. You talk about these cards being worth somewhere between $100-150 million , then you turn around and tell a story of an employee who pulled it out of a pack. So don't assume every person who has a MC or JL or DE is 'losing' money. A more honest approach would be trying to figure out who paid more than the current price for it, because they're the ones losing money. Considering even the current price for these cards, either you had the money to lose or you made a horrible financial mistake. Not sure how that's anyone's fault but your own. And as a game store owner myself, let me tell you what 'shook my faith' in the game- the 30th Anniversary set, not some random ban of 4 cards in a sea of literally thousands. It has not shaken my confidence in investing, because no one should be investing in Magic the Gathering! You guys talk like it's some kind of retirement fund. It's closer to the truth to say it's a flex at the table to drop an $800 card on 'Postie' and now you can't do that. (Or you could if you just Rule 0 it with friends... but then it comes back around to it being about the money, not the ban.) Be angry at WotC for manipulating release dates that hype up these cards when they know damn well a ban is around the corner. Be angry at WotC for rushing out cards without playtesting them, watch as they break the format, then step in and ban it because, oops, we didn't know it was going to do THAT! You put money into a market that lulled you into a false sense of security. Be angry at WotC -and yourself- for that.

[@Berserk2099]

I feel sick over the bans this year. Had gotten playset of sorins and a couple of mana crypts. Hundreds of dollars wasted on a dumb game. Don’t feel like buying anymore cards for a couple of years

[@krevin543]

Don’t invest in this game guys.

[@hq3473]

Sealed pack sales with different rarities should be regulated the same as any lottery. This is the biggest issue here.

[@IrishAndAwkward]

WAHOO! Commander shouldn't be about who has the most expensive cards. All the fast mana banned cards have one thing in common that sol ring doesn't: rarity and price. Making your deck better shouldn't be reliant on how much expendable income you have. P.S. Nadu was broken and went the way of that Izzet Companion. Good Riddance

[@fluffbot3000]

100% this.

[@HuxtableK]

The Izzet companion, that otter, was banned right away because of that issue, yeah. And it's healthy. The reason for its ban was a good one. I agree with these other bans, too. All four of em.

[@GoStarlightRedGo]

I am so happy for the banns!! Commander can finally start being fun and healthy again.

[@mindhackz]

35:21 American healthcare system be like

[@Asarkun]

I lost money with this, I have a Boros Deck that really needs any mana it can get that got hurt by this... but honestly I still think it was the right thing to do. It will make the format more healthy down the road but yeah they could have done this better like was discussed in the video.

[@wesmorris3529]

In no way should players card values ever be considered when it comes to bans. I say this as a player who has been playing since 93. your value is not relevant to if a format needs a ban it shouldn't EVER matter cause if it did then the one ring never gets a ban. If you think otherwise you don't really like this game you just think it is a stock market. The toxic entitled players that lost their mind over this just handed all rules calls to wizards that is going to end incredibly poorly good job.

[@Balthukkazor]

Nice to hear your well thought opinions on this topic, I'm still hurting from slowly accumulating these cards over the years and slotting them into my various Decks (cEDH). I'm about 4k out of pocket. so really don't see a reason to purchase any more MTG product with the out of nowhere suddenness of this decsion by the RC. Proxies all the way.

[@TheMILLZ13]

Only invest in reserve list cards and proxy new cards only.

[@bobby45825]

I hope your reserve list cards get reprinted, just to send a message.

[@TheMILLZ13]

@@bobby45825 cannot get reprinted buddy or magic is done for

[@heathGREsham]

Disappointed in this response. I learned from you guys that fast mana ruins games. Really frustrated that really any weight is given to the financial side. It’s about he health of the format. Something standard and modern players understand

[@empxrubix9387]

In my opinion wotc should not design cards for commander since their motivation is money and not the health of the format (as Seen with nadu that broke multiple formats). EDH was created to give a home to cards that are unplayable in any other constructed format but still tingle the timmy in all of us. They powercreep everything just to reep in profit and abuse the comunity in a format that the didn't create. As the committee i would NOT inform wotc about the bans since it's a comunity format and if they live by the reeping they can also die by the reeping. If i was on the commander committee i would have pushed to ban jeweled lotus the second i saw it. A format specific black lotus will always be problematic as are other cards specifically designed for commander and a chase product. I would also announce a "problematic" list in every spoiler season to make rule 0 discussions easier and dampen the financial stress on casual commander players.

[@empxrubix9387]

Just for preemptive clarification, i own all the banned cards and enjoy some high-power (not quite cedh) games from time to time. I generaly think the bans are healthy but should have happened a long time ago.